A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[stealinghome]

Yeah, just look at the general joy and happiness and whatnot that the announcement of Kate Middleton's pregnancy caused in the UK. It's pretty realistic, imo, that the conception of a royal heir would excite the populace and give them hope for the future.

 

I didn't think to check at the time because I was all "This is ridiculous", but did Snow's heart still have the black spot on it when it was ripped into two? If so, who got the dark piece?

With Charming's luck, you just KNOW it was him.

 

Actually, I think it might have been a little interesting if Snow and Regina had got left behind  at the door and Charms was the only one to make it through. It wuuld have made more angst of the heart taking scene (the pure-hearted one had to lose his heart because he's the one not carrying the baby).

I don't disagree, but I also think this again would have brought up the problematic question of what, exactly, is a pure heart? Because if the idea is that killing Cora gave Snow a dark spot, well, we've seen Charming kill at least ten people on this show (granted it's generally been in self-defense--but Snow's actions were too). And yet he still passes the "pure of heart" test and his heart didn't seem to have any black spots on it, from what we saw (guess there's no way to verify that anymore!).

 

Honestly, part of me thinks that the idea of the "pure heart" is really just writerly shorthand for "be a generally good person." And then part of me wonders--but I feel like I am way more thoughtful about this than the writers--if that was their way of being like "yeah, we're about to go into total Regina fanservice--the whitest of white magic, a true love's kiss, and a deep bond with your soulmate, all while you're de-hearted!--but look, see, there is still something Regina can't do!" Like if it was supposed to be their way of showing that Regina has paid some sort of lasting price for all she's done. But...yeah, no, I laughed just typing that, because I'm entirely sure I've put way more thought into it than the writers.

 

Really they probably just seized on the chance of some humor.

[KingOfHearts]

The big deal about the Dark Curse was that you murdered the one you love most for your own evil purpose. That was what made it so dark. 

 

I have to disagree. Murdering the one you love was the price, but Snow has yet to truly pay it. The darkness is also in the fact it's the darkest magic you can conjure, and what it does. It rips countless people and families from their homes into a land without magic, imprisoning them into time. Dark magic requires anger and hatred to use - something Snow does not possess. That's why Snow casting the curse made no sense. She doesn't even have magic powers that we know of.

 

I strongly dislike how the writers cheapened the curse to end all curses in 3B.

 

(The more I think about dark hearts, the stupider they sound)

Edited June 10, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Serena]

I have to disagree. Murdering the one you love was the price, but Snow has yet to truly pay it. The darkness is also in the fact it's the darkest magic you can conjure, and what it does. It rips countless people and families from their homes into a land without magic, imprisoning them into time. Dark magic requires anger and hatred to use - something Snow does not possess. That's why Snow casting the curse made no sense. She doesn't even have magic powers that we know of.

 

I strongly dislike how the writers cheapened the curse to end all curses in 3B.

 

(The more I think about dark hearts, the stupider they sound)

I agree that it was cheapened, but the second curse actually had none of the darkness of the first one. They were not trapped in time (otherwise Snow couldn't have given birth), they were not separated from their families, they were not miserable and they were not brainwashed. It was a simple "get everyone to SB" curse that had none of the darkness of the first. Plus, Regina did all the actual "work" (did they still need the help of the dark creatures Regina asked for help in 102? Who knows) and the only thing Snow did was crush the heart. 

[kili]

Regina did all the actual "work" (did they still need the help of the dark creatures Regina asked for help in 102? Who knows)

 

In the end, didn't Regina not have the help of the dark creatures to enact the first curse? She invited them all to come and help out when she sacrificed her horse and then one of them laughed at her when it failed (and was turned into a lawn ornament). Then, when she sacrificed her father's heart, I seem to recall she did it all by herself.

 

I wondered what happened to all those other evil characters after the curse was enacted. Did they get left behind or did they get great (or crappy) jobs in Storybrooke? In any event, I don't think they would have gotten what they really wanted out of that curse. That curse was a total bait and switch by Rumple. Let's go to another land where Regina loses her magic, you have indoor plumbing and have a host of first world problems you won't remember the next day. Regina probably suffered more than most of her victims who seemed to think they were living a happy life until Emma showed up and they started collecting memories (and if August/Neal hadn't turned her into such a cynical, suspicious person, the time between starting the memories and breaking the curse could have been much shorter and we wouldn't have gotten all that strife. August admits as much). Meanwhile, Regina was stuck in an unsatisfying Groundhog day existence (Emma and Jefferson also suffered).

[KingOfHearts]

.They were not trapped in time (otherwise Snow couldn't have given birth), they were not separated from their families, they were not miserable and they were not brainwashed.

 

They may been trapped in time, albeit just a few days until Emma arrived. But I'm splitting hairs.

 

Just using it to get to SB defeats its entire purpose. (Regina: "I use curses to hurt other people") It did however rip everyone away from their homes in the Enchanted Forest. I doubt they did a public vote in the kingdom, because they were trying to keep it discrete from Zelena. Funny how in New York Serenade it was out of the question, but in A Curious Thing they didn't give a second thought about it. Only when it affected them did they decide to do it. They just cursed an entire kingdom because a witch made threats to their personal lives. Now if she was terrorizing the entire kingdom, that would be different. The Charmings didn't even know what she wanted, besides their baby. There had to be another way somewhere to stop her.

 

I have a really hard time believing its the same curse, even though the writers practically confirmed it is. There are so many differences between Curse 1 and Curse 2. Blech - so much dumbing down for the plot.

Edited June 10, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Mari]

In the end, didn't Regina not have the help of the dark creatures to enact the first curse? She invited them all to come and help out when she sacrificed her horse and then one of them laughed at her when it failed (and was turned into a lawn ornament). Then, when she sacrificed her father's heart, I seem to recall she did it all by herself.

. . . .

That curse was a total bait and switch by Rumple. Let's go to another land where Regina loses her magic, you have indoor plumbing and have a host of first world problems you won't remember the next day. Regina probably suffered more than most of her victims who seemed to think they were living a happy life until Emma showed up and they started collecting memories (and if August/Neal hadn't turned her into such a cynical, suspicious person, the time between starting the memories and breaking the curse could have been much shorter and we wouldn't have gotten all that strife. August admits as much). Meanwhile, Regina was stuck in an unsatisfying Groundhog day existence (Emma and Jefferson also suffered).

I remember the original curse-casting the same way--Regina was not able to do it on her own.

 

The bait and switch by Rumple?  For the most part it was, but Rumple isn't stupid, and he does tend to think things out.  Why infuriate the thousands of people unnecessarily?  Especially when your whole intention is to break the curse.  I think most of it was designed to be fairly benign, simply because Rumple wouldn't want to live in Miseryville himself (and he was going to be there) and wouldn't see the point in unnecessarily torturing people.

 

I think the curse mostly focused its misery on people who had caught the attention of Regina and/or Rumple.  People that had not given those two what they wanted, for one reason or another, got the brunt of the misery, which allowed Rumple to keep the letter of what he promised Regina without the spirit of it.

[stealinghome]

Yeah, I honestly think the writers totally retconned just about everything about Regina's original curse in having Snowing reenact it. You'll notice that there was absolutely no talk of "a hole you will never be able to fill" this time around. Ahem.

 

It also--and I've said this before--totally makes a mockery of the idea that Rumpel had to train Regina for years to cast it. Why didn't he just set everything up and have some sociopathic schmuck cast it in exchange for infinite wealth?

 

Ginnifer Goodwin and Josh Dallas acted the hell out of the scene, so I always get lost in the emotion of the scene when I watch it, but really the more you think about it, it just destroys the show's mythology. Along with, you know, making absolutely no sense.

[Serena]

I wondered what happened to all those other evil characters after the curse was enacted. Did they get left behind or did they get great (or crappy) jobs in Storybrooke? In any event, I don't think they would have gotten what they really wanted out of that curse. That curse was a total bait and switch by Rumple. Let's go to another land where Regina loses her magic, you have indoor plumbing and have a host of first world problems you won't remember the next day. Regina probably suffered more than most of her victims who seemed to think they were living a happy life until Emma showed up and they started collecting memories (and if August/Neal hadn't turned her into such a cynical, suspicious person, the time between starting the memories and breaking the curse could have been much shorter and we wouldn't have gotten all that strife. August admits as much). Meanwhile, Regina was stuck in an unsatisfying Groundhog day existence (Emma and Jefferson also suffered).

That was not my impression at all. Mary Margaret was miserable. Kathryn/Abigail was miserable. Jiminy Cricket was also miserable, because he was a coward who couldn't stand up to Regina re: Henry's treatment (amongs other things, I'm sure). Grumpy was a drunk. Granny and Ruby had an unhappy relationship. Ashley and her prince weren't together and she was pregnant for 28 years and in constant misery over the idea of giving up their child. Geppetto longed for a child. Etcetera.

When Emma showed up, they actually started getting happier. Mary Margaret got her first friend. Jiminy stood up to Regina and followed his conscience. Granny and Ruby started getting along better, and Ruby started to find herself. Kathryn got out of her marriage (and met her prince). Ashley had her baby and got to keep her. Etc.

 

Emma's influence over the fairy tale characters, how she helped them regain their happy endings and true personality, was one of the better themes of the show. I loved the idea of her as a "savior" who fought for those people by giving Ashley the "you have to change your life yourself, not wait for a godmother" peptalk, by telling Jiminy that he was fucking up Henry's mental health because he was too chicken to stand up for his patient, by giving Ruby a job, etc. Don't get me wrong, I don't hate the more literal, "ass kicking" version of Emma the Savior, but the way they were selling that narrative in season one (she wasn't physically saving them from danger, but helping them regain their true selves) was beautiful and the difference with the other seasons is telling, and the change was not for the best IMO. I really don't get where the writers picked up their "plot action plot" bug from, it wasn't there in season one.

[Shanna Marie]

Curse 2 just seemed to be a transportation curse -- re-create Storybrooke and send everyone there. They still had their memories (aside from the missing year, thanks to Zelena) and still had their identities. They were still with the people they loved. They were just in a different place (one with indoor plumbing and television). Magic even still worked.

 

Curse 1 was specifically designed to take away everyone's happy ending other than Regina's. She got everything she wanted. She just learned along the way that what she wanted wasn't what she really wanted and wasn't going to make her happy. As Rumple told Zelena (paraphrasing somewhat), nothing she did was going to give her the happy ending she wanted because she was still going to be the same person there, and she was the one making herself unhappy. She wasn't unhappy because Snow and David were alive, together and happy. She was unhappy because she's a miserable person who focused entirely on revenge and on ruining other people's lives instead of working on her own life. I suspect that's a lot of where the "hole you can't fill" (until you can, I guess) thing came from. Regina already had a hole she couldn't fill, even before she killed her father, or she wouldn't have wanted to do something crazy like the curse, and the hole her father's loss left in her life probably won't be filled. If Snow hadn't figured out the idea of sharing her heart, she always would have had a hole she couldn't have filled because even if she had her children and saved everyone from Zelena's threats, she would have lost her husband. It's possible that Regina also could have shared her heart with her father, but the concept of "sharing" was pretty unfamiliar to her.

 

Curse 1 froze everyone in time, took away their memories and identities and separated them from the people they loved, forcing them to live fake lives that were designed to be unsatisfying and that took away the best parts of themselves. That's the part that's dark, not necessarily the method of casting it.

[stealinghome]

I really don't get where the writers picked up their "plot action plot" bug from, it wasn't there in season one.

I really do wonder if they were instructed to make the show more kid-friendly for Season 2.

 

If so, guess that backfired on ABC.

Edited June 10, 2014 by stealinghome

[KingOfHearts]

I really do wonder if they were instructed to make the show more kid-friendly for Season 2.

 

Yeah, or ABC wanted it setup more like a movie than a drama. For the record, the premiere of S2 should have focused on the ramifications of the curse breaking alone. I could think of a few dozen scenarios of what could have happened after the curse broke. We were stuck with that silly wraith episode, unfortunately.

 

All that mother/daughter bonding time that could have happened in the Team Princess eps... sigh. Not enough action and CGI, I suppose.

Edited June 10, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Yeah, I honestly think the writers totally retconned just about everything about Regina's original curse in having Snowing reenact it. You'll notice that there was absolutely no talk of "a hole you will never be able to fill" this time around. Ahem.

You're right about the actors making it work, just like so much about this show.  But conceptually, why?  I can only think of two reasons (1) "surprise" factor... Snow and Charming would be the last person you would think (2) Dragging Snow and Charming through the mud x 384928.  So even THEY would enact the dark curse that even Maleficient wouldn't touch.  Regina isn't so bad at all.  

 

I really do wonder if they were instructed to make the show more kid-friendly for Season 2.

 

I tend to think it's just the writers' real personalities showing through.  It still wasn't that kid friendly... Safe Haven massacre, for example.  

[stealinghome]

You're right about the actors making it work, just like so much about this show.  But conceptually, why?  I can only think of two reasons (1) "surprise" factor... Snow and Charming would be the last person you would think

I think this is it. 3B has been all about replaying the first season of this show (maybe because they figured out that it was by far the best?). But they think they're sooo clever by replaying everything with a twist. So I feel like they probably thought it was an AWESOME twist to do the curse again, but have Snowing cast it and Regina break it! Isn't that so SHOCKING and SURPRISING? Isn't it such a NIFTY reversal? Who would EVER see it coming? Aren't they so SMART?

 

I don't even think it's about tarnishing Snowing (because they haven't even been tarnished at all by it!) or making Regina look better (because let's be real, the show hasn't seriously suggested Regina has a hole in her heart since S1, either, she's basically been given a free pass on the curse since like 2x05--and I don't think the writers are truly that conscious of their Regina crush, either).

 

The shame of it is that Snow and Charming being the ones to enact the curse actually could have made for an awesome story. I know I was pulling for it when spoilers for 3B started to come out. But the execution just sucked.

 

I really do wonder if they were instructed to make the show more kid-friendly for Season 2.

I tend to think it's just the writers' real personalities showing through.  It still wasn't that kid friendly... Safe Haven massacre, for example.

Yeah, that's a good point. Kid-friendly was probably the wrong word to use--certainly there's still murder and some very adult stuff on the show. And I agree that a lot of it is just Adam and Eddie's worst tendencies being given free rein. But I also just can't escape the feeling that starting with S2, the target audience for the show has been a younger one (probably precisely because the show got all the hype for being a family show in S1). Even my parents have said that these days, watching Once feels like watching a Saturday morning cartoon. The focus on ACTION! that doesn't ever really do anything and having plots that have no long-term ramifications and shiny toy syndrome all seems like it gears the show for a younger audience. As does its refusal to truly deal with the darkness it brings up--Once was never perfect, but it both delved into the darkness and the consequences of the darkness much better/more responsibly in S1.

[Camera One]

In S1, the lack of magic and the need for subtlety in Regina & Rumple in Storybrooke, plus the procedural nature, forced it more into a character-based drama.  Starting with S2, the plot was all about a flamboyant, larger than life threat who/which might kill/destroy everyone (first Cora, then the fail-safe, then Peter Pan, then Zelena).  

 

Once was already popular with the younger crowd in S1:

http://www.vulture.com/2011/11/once-upon-a-time-is-a-rare-hit-with-the-whole-family.html

[KingOfHearts]

Would S2 have been better if Rumple and Regina didn't have magic for a while? That I wonder.

 

What I like about S1 is the overarching anticipation of the curse breaking. There's this big arc overhead that doesn't drown out the rest of the storylines. (Unlike Zelena...) Every episode the excitement grows and grows for Emma to finally believe, for Snow and Charming to find each other, for Regina's reign to end. It kept viewers watching week after week.

[stealinghome]

Would S2 have been better if Rumple and Regina didn't have magic for a while? That I wonder.

Oh, I definitely think so. I honestly think that one of the show's biggest missteps was so quickly returning magic to Storybrooke--and not actually following through on the premise that magic works differently here. Aside from the fact that magic on this show has no rules and the writers just use it whenever they want/need a convenient plot point and it's maddening, one of the show's biggest structural problems in S2/S3 has been that the heroes are just so incredibly outgunned by the magic-users. It's the reason that they only ever win when they're lucky, or why the villains have to be even dumber than the heroes to lose.

 

Not returning magic to Rumpel and Regina for a while, or giving them just enough magic to defend themselves but not really do anything else, would have really leveled the playing field, and allowed the heroes to get some wins that weren't uber-contrived. AND the writers wouldn't need to constantly depower Regina or Rumpel, or introduce magic users that are increasingly THE MOST POWERFUL EVER (except they're totally not), to justify the heroes keeping the villains around.

[KAOS Agent]

There was also a whole lot of emotional character build up for the curse breaking in Season 1 that held a lot of people's attention. All of the betrayals in the past like with Geppetto, Pinocchio and the Blue Fairy, Regina locking up Belle in an asylum and Regina's murder of Graham should have led to some great stories in addition to the family stuff with the Charmings, Jefferson & Grace, Red & Granny, etc. Every week something new would come along to add to the build up of excitement for when the curse actually ended and all of these people remembered. Then "Broken" happened and Season 2 just completely bombed on dealing with any of the fallout. Truthfully, I think it was probably the lack of emotional payoff that hurt the show's numbers more than the silly magic and plot lines. Many held on through the return of Snow & Emma to Storybrooke, but once it became clear that the show would never deal with any of the stuff they'd built up and that the new story being told was really lame, people started tuning out in droves. The lack of payoff also becomes a problem when they introduce new emotional character issues because the audience already has a mistrust that the writers will ever follow through with it. Why get invested in something that will never come to fruition?

 

Having magic in Storybrooke was definitely a problem too. Some of Rumpel's best stuff in Season 2 was watching him at the airport and seeing him realize how powerless and vulnerable he was. And Regina's struggles to use magic early in the season was interesting too - especially in light of Emma's using magic without even knowing it. Like when Regina couldn't get the hat to work and Emma simply touched her shoulder and voila! Magic portal. I'm still really disappointed that they chose to depower Emma in 3B (who really didn't care once they won and I think was pretty happy to have lost it) rather than go the much more interesting route of removing Regina's powers. I actually think a case could be made that Regina would be much happier without magic.

Edited June 11, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[KingOfHearts]

 I actually think a case could be made that Regina would be much happier without magic.

Not giving her any excuses, but it was magic that started her on her path to EQ. Granted it was her choice, but she would be happier without it. Why couldn't Robin get the kiss curse? Haha.

 

I think a mistake of the S1 finale was concluding too many things at once - Emma believing, curse breaking, all the residents remembering, magic in Storybrooke...I think the writers were so excited about all the possibilities with the curse broken, they just wanted to get it done ASAP. For being the show's premise, the curse was resolved relatively quickly. 1x22 (Land Without Magic) is still my favorite episode, but it took a risk that unfortunately was the catalyst for S2.

 

 

or introduce magic users that are increasingly THE MOST POWERFUL EVER (except they're totally not), to justify the heroes keeping the villains around.

 

 

I've wanted a villain who has no magic for a while - one who used only wits to outsmart Rumple and Regina. They both have shockingly brilliant manipulation skills that have been dormant since S1. I'd like to see that. They've always shown the most vulnerability and character growth when they couldn't hide behind magic.

Edited June 11, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

I actually think a case could be made that Regina would be much happier without magic.

Not giving her any excuses, but it was magic that started her on her path to EQ. Granted it was her choice, but she would be happier without it. Why couldn't Robin get the kiss curse? Haha.

Given the way things turned out, giving the Kiss Curse to Robin would've been a better move on Zelena's part!

 

But yeah, Regina would be...I don't know if I would say happier...but at least a healthier human being if she had no magic. Often, magic is a crutch that she uses to basically not have to deal with real life and process her emotions. Taking it away would make her actually process her shit and gain some semblance of emotional health.

I think a mistake of the S1 finale was concluding too many things at once - Emma believing, curse breaking, all the residents remembering, magic in Storybrooke...I think the writers were so excited about all the possibilities with the curse broken, they just wanted to get it done ASAP. For being the show's premise, the curse was resolved relatively quickly. 1x22 (Land Without Magic) is still my favorite episode, but it took a risk that unfortunately was the catalyst for S2.

The funny thing is, Adam and Eddie have said that initially they thought Emma would break the curse around episode 16 of the first season. Which, I'm glad they decided to hold out on that, because I think a season was just about right (and the last third of S1 remains easily the best string of episodes this show has done to date). I've always thought that that was why episodes 8-14 or so seem like a total slog--because they realized they literally just needed to fill some time.

 

It baffles me though, because a) how did they not have a better plan for the post-cursebreak world if they initially intended on breaking the curse so quickly, b) that is like their PLOT PLOT PLOT! train on speed, like wow, and c) did they not learn from that that they have bad pacing tendencies and adjust accordingly???

I've wanted a villain who has no magic for a while - one who used only wits to outsmart Rumple and Regina. They both have shockingly brilliant manipulation skills that have been dormant since S1. I'd like to see that. They've always shown the most vulnerability and character growth when they couldn't hide behind magic.

I agree, but the problem at this point is that Rumpel and Regina are so magically overpowered that if they had an enemy who wasn't magically turbocharged up, they could just turn the person into a snail, step on them, and be done with it.

[Camera One]

I think a mistake of the S1 finale was concluding too many things at once - Emma believing, curse breaking, all the residents remembering, magic in Storybrooke...

 

I agree... I actually felt a lack of payoff in the season finale for this very reason.  Though of course, the even bigger lack of payoff was still to come at that point.

 

 

 

What if the finale only included Emma believing without the curse breaking? Now that would have been Operation Cobra to the max.

 

This was actually what I really expected would happen in the Season 1 finale.  This is what I actually expected:

 

Season 2A: Emma would believe but Regina wouldn't know, and Emma would try to get various people in town, especially her parents to believe.  Right before winter break, she would finally get someone to believe - either Charming or Snow.

 

Season 2B: That first person would help Emma with an underground movement, getting more and more people to believe, and then everyone would believe in season finale, which is when Charming and Snow would both remember.  That would be a long wait, so they would have needed to be *really* skilled at writing.  If Charming knew, he could try to court Mary Margaret, without the irritating adultery stuff.  

 

This would have been a long time to wait for Emma, Charming and Snow to begin their journey as a family unit, but we never even got that anyway.  If they had done in S2 what KAOS Agent suggested above (actually follow-through on the multitudes of ramifications from the S1 events), the breaking of the Curse at the end of S1 could have worked.  

 

 

 

Not returning magic to Rumpel and Regina for a while, or giving them just enough magic to defend themselves but not really do anything else, would have really leveled the playing field, and allowed the heroes to get some wins that weren't uber-contrived.

 

That would have made a huge difference, especially in 2B.  In some ways, 2A wasn't as bad.  Still completely lacking in payoff, but not horrible.  They delayed having Emma/Snow/Charming actually unite by separating them in the first episode, so it wasn't until 3B where it was clear they weren't even going to bother to address them.  Plus on top of that, they had Regina regress like a yo-yo, while the "good guys" acted as dumb as doorknobs.

Edited June 11, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Camera One, you should write for the show :)

 

I could imagine all the awkwardness with Emma realizing she's been living with her mom. But she could learn to adjust to it without Snow pushing "mommy" on her. Can't decide which is less creepy.

Edited June 11, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

Heh, it's funny to think back. Before the S1 finale, I was convinced that in the finale, one person was going to wake up--probably Charming--and that the second season was going to be Emma and that person, you know, spreading the remembering and starting an underground anti-Regina cell. I figured that at the end of 2A, Snow would remember, and then 2B would be leading up to a townspeople vs. Regina showdown in the S2 finale, no holds barred.

 

But I absolutely think breaking the curse the way they did could have worked. I love 1x21/22, I still think they're some of the best episodes this show did. The problem was the craptastic writing for Season 2 and the lack of payoff/follow-through, not the setup the S1 finale left us with.

 

All of the betrayals in the past like with Geppetto, Pinocchio and the Blue Fairy, Regina locking up Belle in an asylum and Regina's murder of Graham should have led to some great stories in addition to the family stuff with the Charmings, Jefferson & Grace, Red & Granny, etc.

So much this. Each of those dangling plots from S1 could easily have been an episode, if not more, of 2A. Honestly, the long-term fallout of the curse should have been the story in 2A. You could have done Team Princess in the first third of 2B, and then Cora could have been the Big Bad for the end of 2B.

[Camera One]

I've always thought that that was why episodes 8-14 or so seem like a total slog--because they realized they literally just needed to fill some time.

 

It didn't have to be a slog, though.  They didn't need to try to kill time.  Emma's progression of belief could have been a little more gradual instead of nothing, nothing, a little, back to nothing, more nothing, nothing, wham, believe everything, realize Mary Margaret and David are actually her parents, realize Mary Margaret and David are actually Snow White and Prince Charming, confront Regina, have everything confirmed, break the Curse.

[KingOfHearts]

 

But I absolutely think breaking the curse the way they did could have worked. I love 1x21/22, I still think they're some of the best episodes this show did. The problem was the craptastic writing for Season 2 and the lack of payoff/follow-through, not the setup the S1 finale left us with.

 

I agree. When Henry ate the apple turnover... you knew things were going to go down. Those two episodes are my favorites.

 

The actual story in 2A wasn't inherently bad on its own, but it was poor as a follow-up to 1x21/22 with the curse breaking. It was downhill after The Miller's Daughter.

Edited June 11, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[stealinghome]

It didn't have to be a slog, though.  They didn't need to try to kill time.  Emma's progression of belief could have been a little more gradual instead of nothing, nothing, a little, back to nothing, more nothing, nothing, wham, believe everything, realize Mary Margaret and David are actually her parents, realize Mary Margaret and David are actually Snow White and Prince Charming, confront Regina, have everything confirmed, break the Curse.

Yeah, I mean, I agree that those episodes didn't have to be a slog. But "with better writing" is the story of this show, you know? :) I was thinking about it more like, around the time of the interminable Mary Margaret/David Nolan stuff where Kathryn was the only person in Storybrooke to ever have heard of divorce, and the "who killed Kathryn" plotline (which was better but still contrived), and August being needlessly cryptic for episode upon episode, it was clear that the showrunners didn't have a whole lot of story for Storybrooke and were stretching the little story they had pretty thin. But then the Storybrooke stuff picked up once we got out of that stretch.

 

The actual story in 2A wasn't inherently bad on its own, but it was poor as a follow-up to 1x21/22 with the curse breaking. It was downhill after The Miller's Daughter.

Agreed. Team Princess wasn't a bad idea in theory, but it was the wrong time in the series to do it (and the execution wasn't great, the writing was way too McGuffin-y...it's crazy to think that, between the S2 premiere, the episode where we weren't in the Enchanted Forest at all, and the two episodes where Emma and Mary Margaret appeared for literally 30 seconds, Team Princess was really only 5 episodes. It felt like they were running around those woods for so.much.longer). Then 2x10 to 'Miller's Daughter' was an okay stretch--and by "okay" I mean you had a bunch of bad episodes, but also 'Manhattan' and 'Miller's Daughter,' which are two of the show's gems, so they made that stretch kind of okay--but then, yeah, post-'Miller's Daughter' was just terrible. Nothing redeeming in that stretch. At all.

 

I remember being so disappointed with 2A as it aired...who knew that that was going to be the good chunk of S2?

[Camera One]

When Henry ate the apple turnover... you knew things were going to go down. Those two episodes are my favorites.

 

So comparing the finale of each "season"...

 

An Apple Red As Blood / A Land Without Magic

I loved the Henry eating the apple turnover moment... I thought that penultimate episode was better structured and more effective than the follow-through in the finale.  

 

Second Star To the Right / ...And Straight On Til Morning

Season 2 had a horrible back third and a bad finale, but if I had to choose between the penultimate episode and the finale, I would also go with the penultimate one "Second Star to the Right"... .the flashbacks were a nice twist on Wendy and the Darlings with a side of Bae, and there were some nice scenes with Emma and Neal.

 

The New Neverland / Going Home

3A's finale... I will have to rewatch "A New Neverland" since I don't really remember it too well, but "Going Home" feels more memorable because of the heart-wrenching ending.  I rewatched it recently with a friend, and the Peter Pan/Rumple stuff in "Going Home" really bored me the second time around.

 

A Curious Thing / Kansas (I'm going to disregard the last two episodes since they were practically stand-alone)

The ending episode to the Zelena arc ("Kansas") totally sucked.  I think I preferred "A Curious Thing" to that, if only because of the momentum of getting Henry to remember (and the internal struggle Emma was clearly going through) and also the well acted Snow and Charming flashback, which had a spice of humor with Regina.

[Dani-Ellie]

The lack of payoff also becomes a problem when they introduce new emotional character issues because the audience already has a mistrust that the writers will ever follow through with it. Why get invested in something that will never come to fruition?

 

The lack of follow-through is my biggest problem with this show. I remember being so excited when the curse broke at the end of season one and spending that entire summer hiatus wondering how things were going to shake out. I wrote speculative fic and I read speculative fic and my little corner of the fandom was positively jumping with anticipation.

And then season 2 happened. Nothing was dealt with. Either it was touched on and *poof* all better or it was ignored. I remember waiting and waiting and waiting for the wardrobe reveal to happen. I wanted to see the fallout of that so badly. It was one of those things where everyone only had bits of the story so when they compared notes, there should have been a shitstorm. Snow and Charming didn't know they were originally supposed to go together. They didn't know one of them could have gone with Emma. I don't know if Emma knew her parents thought it could only take one. I was always under the impression that she thought they sent Pinocchio through with her on purpose (which would mean she thought one of them could have gone with her and chose not to ... and of course, I realize this could be completely head canon, and that in an of itself is a problem). And then when the wardrobe reveal happened, it was played off as such a non-issue -- literally a reveal given while heading to the A-plot -- that I was disappointed. Because it's not a non-issue. It's an event that changed the course of many characters' lives, and it should have been treated with that respect.

 

Add that to the perfunctory way the rest of the Charming Family stuff has been handled, and I don't have the faith in them anymore to follow through with anything. Even Charming's nightmare in "The Tower." That was great. It brought up real issues, but then it just became a dropped thread. Charming found his courage, great, but how did that soothe his feelings of failure when it came to Emma? You know what could have really soothed those feelings? An actual discussion with Emma. That's the stuff that's missing here ... the emotional follow-through. It just makes for unsatisfying storytelling, which, as a fan who cares about these characters, is frustrating.

[RadioGirl27]

I think that the lack of payoff between season 1 and 2 has a lot to do with the love the writters have for Regina and Rumple. Both are responsible for almost everything that has happened to the rest of the characters, so if they deal with the consequences of their acts, they can redeem them because their acts are impossible to redeem.

Edited June 11, 2014 by RadioGirl27

[Dani-Ellie]

I completely agree. but then again, that's the writers' own problem. If they wanted to redeem these characters, they shouldn't have had them be such awful people.

 

Either that or give the characters the self-awareness that they are awful people and give them an actual desire and will to change, a desire and will that comes from hating the awful people they'd become. Have them apologize to their victims. Have them recognize the pain and suffering they've inflicted and have them feeling awful about it. Accountability and atonement are not bad things, and for me, they're necessary for a true redemption.

 

I get that they're probably trying to write themselves out of a hole, but it's a hole of their own making. It needs to be dealt with, not ignored. The past actions of these characters happened. We have visual proof of it, and I personally can't pretend it didn't, no matter how much the writing may want to tell me otherwise.

 

I'm not necessarily opposed to a Regina redemption, but it needs to be done right, and basically just being all "*poof* she's redeemed now" is not right. She hasn't earned it for me, by any stretch of the imagination. When she apologizes to Snow and Emma for destroying their lives and when she apologizes to all of Storybrooke for making them all collateral damage and when she apologizes to Henry for trying to kill half his family, then we can talk.

 

It's like I just want to go into the writers' room and shake them all by the shoulders and be all, "Guys, come on. Do you understand how shallow this all is? Do you understand how great this show could be if you would take five seconds and actually deal with all the problems you've created? Your cast can sell the hell out of anything ... give them a chance to show you what they can do."

Edited June 11, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Joenigma]

 

Would S2 have been better if Rumple and Regina didn't have magic for a while? That I wonder.

To be honest, I think the problem with Season 2 was having the Enchanted Forrest still existing

 

Imagine if the Dark Curse had succeeded in wiping out that land for good, and Season 2 at least the first half was about Characters reacting to being freed and Magic being brought to the land without Magic. They could have still had Cora as the big bad but maybe placed a spell on her and Hook to be awaken when the Savior breaks the curse. It would have explained why after S1's True Love's kiss they weren't immediately brought back.

 

It would also leave the Dark Curse's major status in place when Snow and Charming enacted it. It wasn't merely a transportation curse but it would wipe out their home.

[stealinghome]

It's like I just want to go into the writers' room and shake them all by the shoulders and be all, "Guys, come on. Do you understand how shallow this all is? Do you understand how great this show could be if you would take five seconds and actually deal with all the problems you've created? Your cast can sell the hell out of anything ... give them a chance to show you what they can do."

This is the thing that frustrates me the most, and why Once is probably going to go down as one of the most disappointing shows I've ever watched. This could have been a *really good*, potentially *great* show with better writers. I can't imagine anyone else playing any of these roles--they have the perfect cast, one that has crazy chemistry together (you just watch something like Paleyfest or Comic-Con and you see how much closer this cast is than other shows' casts). The costumes are AMAZING, the locations are often gorgeous, hair/makeup and cinematography and whatnot are all good enough.

And then there's the writing.

 

 

To be honest, I think the problem with Season 2 was having the Enchanted Forrest still existing

I'm torn on this, because on the one hand I remember something that Greg Weisman once said about the second season of Gargoyles, which was that in a second season, a show always has to expand its world. Make it bigger, give the protagonists bigger and wider and more problems to have, things to worry over. And while I agree that 2A needed to be the Storybrooke fallout of the curse, I also do understand the desire to expand the possibilities for where our heroes go, give them a goal to get back to, etc. Moreover, I've always thought that the end of this show is going to be everyone returning to the Enchanted Forest once and for all. But with that all said, I definitely agree that having the Enchanted Forest still existing is way too tempting for the writers, because that "so hard, impossible" travel between worlds is as easy as catching a cab these days and it just undercuts the whole premise of the show, whatever bs explanations the writers try to serve up as to why Rumpel's curse wasn't terribly ridiculously unnecessary. More than that, the writers have gotten into the somewhat lazy habit of just picking villains and whatnot from other worlds instead of writing character-based stories for the main characters we already have. The existence of other lands in general really has become like catnip to the writers, they can never resist and for my money it doesn't work more often than it does. It plays into their SHiny Toy Syndrome in the worst way. So...yeah, I'm torn.

Edited June 11, 2014 by stealinghome

[Rumsy4]

The problem with Season 2A was that they had three separate storylines going on each episode--Storybrooke, Enchanted Forest present, and a flashback. They simply did not give themselves any time to deal with emotional fallout. 2B was basically an incoherent mess, as far as I remember. I was ready to give up on the Show if S3 didn't get better. Honestly, early Season 3, and my new shipping of CS was what revived my interest. And then, 3B happened, but I feel way too invested to drop the Show right now. A lot of things they needed to have dealt with in S2 will never be addressed right now--because it is too late in several cases, frankly! Thank goodness for fanfic! ;-)

Edited June 11, 2014 by Rumsy4

[RadioGirl27]

The problem with Season 2A was that they had three separate storylines going on each episode--Storybrooke, Enchanted Forest present, and a flashback. They simply did not give themselves any time to deal with emotional fallout. 2B was basically an incoherent mess, as far as I remember. I was ready to give up on the Show if S3 didn't get better. Honestly, early Season 3, and my new shipping of CS was what revived my interest. And then, 3B happened, but I feel way too invested to drop the Show right now. A lot of things they needed to have dealt with in S2 will never be addressed right now--because it is too late in several cases, frankly! Thank goodness for fanfic! ;-)

 

I could have write this post myself, LOL.

[Joenigma]

 

I'm torn on this, because on the one hand I remember something that Greg Weisman once said about the second season of Gargoyles, which was that in a second season, a show always has to expand its world. Make it bigger, give the protagonists bigger and wider and more problems to have, things to worry over.

Well 2B sort of expanded the world by going to New York to find Bae.

 

My point is, there was no need to bring the Enchanted Forest back until Regina ripped the Dark Curse parchment and sent them all at the end of 3A

Edited June 11, 2014 by Joenigma

[stealinghome]

I was ready to give up on the Show if S3 didn't get better. Honestly, early Season 3, and my new shipping of CS was what revived my interest.

Minus the Captain Swan shipping, ditto. I distinctly remember saying to my friend I watch with that I was giving the show 4-5 episodes in Season 3, and if it was still as bad as the back third of Season 2, I was probably going to drop the show. Gratefully, 3A was much improved (especially the first handful of episodes), and I still think 3B was better than 2B. So. I'm still on-board. (And I honestly feel that Once probably only has one more season in it after next season, so at this point, it's also kind of like, if I'm going to watch through 4A, might as well just watch through to the end.)

 

I think mostly it's just that I've had to resign myself to the fact that the show is never again going to be as good as it was in S1, and it's never really going to be what/as good as I want it to be.

[Camera One]

Even Charming's nightmare in "The Tower." That was great. It brought up real issues, but then it just became a dropped thread. Charming found his courage, great, but how did that soothe his feelings of failure when it came to Emma? You know what could have really soothed those feelings? An actual discussion with Emma. That's the stuff that's missing here ... the emotional follow-through.

 

As stealinghome said in the past, that episode should logically have ended with a conversation between Emma and Charming, with her reaffiriming that he wasn't a failure as a father, that she didn't blame him and that she has faith in him.  I know Emma and Hook have chemistry, but by spending more than half of Emma's already limited screentime in Season 3 on romance, they shortchanged the parental relationship.  And in that episode, all it would have taken was one scene.  

 

 

 

I get that they're probably trying to write themselves out of a hole, but it's a hole of their own making. It needs to be dealt with, not ignored. The past actions of these characters happened.

 

And they're still digging the hole.  I don't think shaking the writers would help.  Their regret after Season 2 was not that they had Regina massacre a village, or that they did not have scenes with Emma/Charming/Snow and their family relationship, or the list of one hundred and one problems with plot, character development and pacing.  It was giving Tamara a taser.  

Edited June 11, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

The underwhelming aftermath of the curse breaking in 2A was repeated in 3B, in that the repercussions of a major event were downplayed to fuel an entirely new plot. The end of Going Home felt like a game changer for the show. It came out of nowhere, and it felt unique.

 

What I expected out of 3B was more of the Missing Year. I wanted to see the aftermath of returning to the Enchanted Forest. The entire show is based on all these people away from it, and now they're back. Most of them (except Snow) have been away for over 28 years. With all the ogres and desolation, rebuilding had to be hard. But just a few short months later, and it's as if they never left it.

 

What I didn't expect was going back to Storybrooke in the very first episode. I thought it was going to be about the family (Emma, Henry and Hook trying to reunite with Regina, Snowing, Neal, etc.) working to get back to each other. But nope, everyone is happily reunited within two episodes. The only real problem was Zelena. 

 

Back in the Enchanted Forest, I was hoping for an ongoing war against wicked from Snowing and Regina - Zelena terrorizing the kingdom, sieging castles with her army of flying monkeys... that sort of thing. Even Neal had a lot of potential for an epic, possibly in Oz. In my head, he slowly descended into magical darkness as his father. Eventually, he would even enact the Dark Curse. Right before Zelena is about to win, the curse washes over.

 

As far as Rumple coming back from the dead, my working theory was that he didn't really die, but teleported somewhere along with Pan. 

 

All that went in my head during winter break. It was quite different from the actual turnout. 

[RadioGirl27]

KingOfHearts, I wish you wrote for the show.

[stealinghome]

As stealinghome said in the past, that episode should logically have ended with a conversation between Emma and Charming, with her reaffiriming that he wasn't a failure as a father, that she didn't blame him and that she has faith in him.

Although, I have to say, while I agree with myself (obviously ;) ), I do like that Charming found his courage when he saw Emma's car. It was a really sweet moment.

 

Charming was just born to be a dad.

 

Their regret after Season 2 was not that they had Regina massacre a village, or that they did not have scenes with Emma/Charming/Snow and their family relationship, or the list of one hundred and one problems with plot, character development and pacing.  It was giving Tamara a taser.

Hee. That quote will never NOT make me laugh in its sheer ridiculousness. That audience, man. If it looks like a taser, shoots like a taser, and acts like a taser, the they're just crazy for thinking...that it's a taser!

 

KingOfHearts, I would like to start a petition to have you write for the show. :) ITA that the Missing Year is one of the biggest disappointments of S3, in that it's a missing Missing Year! But we--or at least I--probably should have figured that we'd never get it, because the writers had zero interest in showing how Snowing took back the kingdom in S2 and this would have been essentially the same plot.

Edited June 11, 2014 by stealinghome

[Dani-Ellie]

And in that episode, all it would have taken was one scene.

 

That's another thing that bugs me: most of my complaints are such easy fixes. All it would take is a little attention in the writers' room and like, a minute of screentime per episode. I'm not saying devote an entire season to the Charming Family angst (though I would not at all be against it :)), but give us something substantial. Take the five seconds to have Snow ask Emma if she was okay post-Echo Cave. Take the ten seconds to have Snow and Charming crying in the Enchanted Forest during the missing year over losing Emma. Give the Charmings a couple of quiet minutes to actually discuss everyone's feelings. It's not a lot I'm asking for, here, it's really not.

 

Their regret after Season 2 was not that they had Regina massacre a village, or that they did not have scenes with Emma/Charming/Snow and their family relationship, or the list of one hundred and one problems with plot, character development and pacing.  It was giving Tamara a taser.

 

Ugh. Thanks for reminding me of that. I honestly can't believe that. I mean, I get it's their story and they're going to tell it how they want, but at the same time, the first season and even the beginning of the second were so much better at the emotional side of things. No, they weren't perfect, but it was a lot better. When they do slow down for an episode and let the emotions play out ("Manhattan," "Lost Girl"), this show is great. I just wish I knew why they were so afraid of letting these things come to fruition.

[Camera One]

do like that Charming found his courage when he saw Emma's car. It was a really sweet moment.

 

You know what?  That one scene and Charming dancing with Emma at the beginning of the episode basically made "The Tower" one of my favorite episodes of 3B.  Even though the rest of the episode actually wasn't that great (as I realized when I rewatched recently with the friend who only catches up when she visits).

 

That's the thing with this show.  When it's good, it's so good.  Even though that goodness actually lasts 2 minutes in a 40 minute episode.

Edited June 11, 2014 by Camera One

[stealinghome]

To be fair to Adam and Eddie, I don't actually think the taser is their biggest regret from S2. I think they just say that because they don't want to admit that large parts of S2 were a hot mess. :) For whatever reason, the two of them are absolutely allergic to admitting in public that the show is anything but a) consistently great and b) going exactly as they intend it to (even when it's obvious it's not). The writers on 'The Good Wife' frustrate(d) me to no end, but one thing I really appreciated was that the Kings were always willing to give interviews where they said "yes, we did x thing and it was a mistake. We would go back and change it if we could." Frankly, it just makes them look less delusional when they don't try to insist that a roundly panned storyline was JUST SO AWESOME.

 

When they do slow down for an episode and let the emotions play out ("Manhattan," "Lost Girl"), this show is great. I just wish I knew why they were so afraid of letting these things come to fruition.

This is what baffles me. It can't have escaped their notice that their most praised episodes are the ones that often deal with the emotional stuff and the relationships between characters. It also can't have escaped their notice that, shall we say, their "plotting ability" is probably the most-panned aspect of the show. So why do they keep writing to their weaknesses and sidelining their strengths?

[Camera One]

To be fair to Adam and Eddie, I don't actually think the taser is their biggest regret from S2. I think they just say that because they don't want to admit that large parts of S2 were a hot mess.

 

I am curious to know what their actual biggest regret from S2 is, since they sure repeated a lot of the same mistakes again in S3.

 

For me, the only major thing they did fix in Season 3 was to provide Regina, Rumple and Hook with a mostly linear redemption arc with screentime to develop the redemption and changes in their mindset or personality.  Of course, the flip side was to hell with the other characters, but what else is new.

Edited June 11, 2014 by Camera One

[kili]

Back in the Enchanted Forest, I was hoping for an ongoing war against wicked from Snowing and Regina - Zelena terrorizing the kingdom, sieging castles with her army of flying monkeys... that sort of thing. Even Neal had a lot of potential for an epic, possibly in Oz. In my head, he slowly descended into magical darkness as his father.

 

Oh, that would have been very interesting to see. Neal descending into darkness rather than a rushed episode where he suddenly is all about using the Dark Magic consequences be darned (we saw a little bit of that when he used Roland as bait, but that was a ways from unfettered use of Dark Magic to get what he wants knowing it involves enslaving his father to be under the Dark One curse again and that the Dark Curse would be the method to get back to Henry).  But, they didn't want to spend more than one or two episodes without Rumple, so they had to rush him back.  Maybe what they could have done is have the revival curse bring back Rumple, but have Neal be the Dark One (that could have been the twist instead of him dying). That would have made for some interesting material. In the end, if they insisted, they could have Neal have Rumple beg him to kill him because he couldn't live as the Dark One. Rumple takes on the Dark Curse again for his son's sake.

 

I really, really feel that we wasted a lot of great stories in the Enchanted Forrest. They hinted at the urgency that Zellena brought which justified the casting of the Dark Curse, but they didn't really show us. So, we are left thinking that Snow/Charming cast the Dark Curse selfishly to save their child, the rest of the kingdom be darned.  If they had shown us more of Zelena threatening the general populace, viewers might have been more convinced that Snow/Charming were sacrificing for everybody. As it was, Zelena wasn't all that threatening to anybody (except for not telling Neal the consequences of what he was determined to do even though he knew it was a trick and turning a few people temporarily in to monkey slaves). She should have just asked Snowing to lend her their baby because the curse was cast and the baby suffered no consequences at all.

 

It was a COMPLETE waste to have Zelena be Regina's sister. It meant we wasted an episode on that Cora back-story and made Leo totally squicky while trying to make us blame Snow's mother for Cora going bad (not buying that, Adam and Eddie). Why not just let somebody be bad without being related to any of the main characters or having a sob-story that isn't all that sobby anyway? That would have left us more time for story-telling about the characters we actually care about. I just don't get a big pay-off for Zelena being Regina's sister. How different would it have been if she had just been another one of Rumple's students who decides to kill Regina in her infancy. She could still find a deux ex machina letter from Rumple that she thought was praising her for being so fantastic, but find out it was about Zelena instead. If Zelena wasn't related, we'd at least have a reason for her stealing some of Regina's blood.

Edited June 11, 2014 by kili

[KingOfHearts]

Unlike Pan, Zelena and Regina had no connection besides blood. Zelena could have been jealous of any royal, not just Regina. If Zelena and Regina were actually rivals, in that Zelena terrorized Oz as Regina did the Enchanted Forest, with Dorothy being sort of like Zelena's Snow, that would emphasize Wicked vs. Evil. Some fans, I believe even on TWOP, theorized that Regina was the Wicked Witch of the East. (Queen Eva North (succeeded by Emma), and Glinda South). I really liked this speculation. Too bad the other witches were random extras.

 

After Going Home, I actually read The Wizard of Oz book in preparation for 3B. I fell in love with Oz and its lore. I was hoping Oz would have been featured more, but alas it was only in a few flashbacks. It's a pity too, because those flashbacks were so beautifully done in the CGI and set design. Personally I'd rather have gone to Oz instead of Neverland.

 

Quick question: How did Regina figure out the letter was about Zelena? I can't remember.

Edited June 11, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

How did Regina figure out the letter was about Zelena? I can't remember.

 

I think I blocked that from my memory as well.  From my hazy memory, Regina just put the pieces together after finding out Zelena was her sister by Cora and that Rumple also taught Zelena.  Then, they revealed Regina had read that letter many times as quiet comfort after Cora died, thinking she was the subject of the letter.  Excuse me while I go cry a little.

Edited June 11, 2014 by Camera One

[Mari]

Unlike Pan, Zelena and Regina had no connection besides blood. Zelena could have been jealous of any royal, not just Regina. If Zelena and Regina were actually rivals, in that Zelena terrorized Oz as Regina did the Enchanted Forest, with Dorothy being sort of like Zelena's Snow, that would emphasize Wicked vs. Evil. . . .

Quick question: How did Regina figure out the letter was about Zelena? I can't remember.

I personally do not understand why they went  with Zelena being Regina's sister.  She could easily have been someone who had to flee a village because she had magic, and people thought she would be evil.  She ends up at the Enchanted Forest version of Hogwarts (or Rumple starts to train her and decides she's unbalanced and quits), while Regina massacres her village.

 

She spends the 28 curse years in Oz, getting brilliant but more and more unhinged, and then goes full vendetta when she sees not only is the curse over, and Regina back, but she's warmly ensconced in the Charming family home.

 

Now, she wants revenge on everyone.  That, at least, would have been a motive that made sense to me--and would have added some interesting perspective to the Regina redemption arc.

 

Regina guessed that the letter was about Zelena, during a moment when she didn't feel confident enough.

[KingOfHearts]

This what Zelena should have been:

When Zelena and Regina first met in Witch Hunt, the vibe I got was that she lived a dirty, unscrupulous life in the shadows. She wasn't royalty, the people of Oz saw her as an outcast for being green, and she just felt rejected all her life. She became wicked, learned magic from Rumple, and began to terrorize Oz in revenge on society. Her beef with Regina was based on Rumple's rejection of her. The Dark Curse was meant for her, but Rumple chose Regina. Zelena's life was centered around revenge, and she thought if she couldn't have a happy ending, no one could. She spent the 28 years attempting to claim the title of the most powerful witch to prove her worth to Rumple. When the Enchanted Forest was empty, she seized the opportunity to take Regina's castle. She wanted to take everything Regina loved away to prove to Rumple that she was better.

 

Leaving Oz in mostly shambles, her eyes were set on a bigger prize - the Enchanted Forest.

 

In reality on the show, the core reason was petty jealousy. Zelena's life wasn't even that terrible. Meh.

Edited June 11, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[yeswedo]

This topic is not intended to be the all purpose, discuss everything place. Please use it for comparing the various realms and arcs where the show has already been and wherever it goes in the future (for example, Storybrooke/The Enchanted Forest/Neverland/Oz Arcs).

 

Continue to use the other threads to discuss relationships, characters, spoilers, etc. If you don't see a thread for a character or theme you want to discuss please PM one of the mods (aquarian1, stacey, mostlyc, yeswedo).

Edited August 21, 2015 by MostlyC
updated guidelines

[legaleagle53]

I think I blocked that from my memory as well.  From my hazy memory, Regina just put the pieces together after finding out Zelena was her sister by Cora and that Rumple also taught Zelena.  Then, they revealed Regina had read that letter many times as quiet comfort after Cora died, thinking she was the subject of the letter.  Excuse me while I go cry a little.

 

Regina figured it out from the specific mention that Rumpel made in the letter of having found Cora's firstborn child (the one he never knew existed because he didn't meet Cora until after Zelena had been abandoned) and that said child was potentially even more powerful than Cora.  It corroborated what Zelena had already told her.