A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[YaddaYadda]

based on this out of nowhere, horrible life advice given to her over a decade ago by Douchefire.

 

That still makes me cringe and I don't think I want to forgive the writers for this one.  If they wanted to make Neal such a hero, they could have come up with a number of things that had nothing to do with her running away from home to see if she misses it.  I still don't understand why that advice, not to mention that Neal and Emma's lives were vastly different.  He had homes and people who cared/loved him and wanted to have him and take care of him.  Emma did not.  So the experience is already different.  She wanted to belong somewhere badly and he messed her up emotionally even more.

 

Much as I loved Bae, I'm starting to see him as a self-righteous little twerp.  Henry is truly his father's son.

[Camera One]

they could have come up with a number of things that had nothing to do with her running away from home to see if she misses it.  I still don't understand why that advice, not to mention that Neal and Emma's lives were vastly different.

 

The writers needed to impart a message about home to Emma, and the only person we know in Emma's past is Neal.  The question isn't whether Emma and Neal's experiences were identical since they were not (though they did share some similarities since they both perceived they were abandoned).  The more important thing is that Emma latched onto the idea that "home is a place that you miss when you leave it".  Emma had been on the run, Neal was presumably the first person she met who she formed a connection with and who seemed to care about her.  Neal spoke about home with nostalgia and conviction (if anything, THAT is what I cry foul on).  So I don't see it being so hard to understand why she would cling to that statement.  Neal, Snow, Charming, etc., did have people who loved them, but you don't need to have gone through someone's exact experiences to be able to connect with someone.  No one is saying Hook can never understand Emma because he had Liam and Milah and a band of loyal pirates who loved him.  Having said that, "There's No Place Like Home" should have been better written and developed, and I still think the show's exploration of Emma's character was severely limited in S3 and we should have seen flashbacks from her childhood to get her to come to the conclusions that she did by the end of S3.  It was the "out of nowhere" aspect of that line which is the biggest problem, written to frame the episode for convenience.

Edited August 10, 2014 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

Camera One, this is where the season was so disjointed imo.  Emma's arc especially has been all over the place because they were busy pushing plot points.  I just find it sad that Emma's role model when she was 17 was Neal.  I liked the 2 hour finale, but they should have put more effort building towards it when it came to Emma's emotional state.  Her repeating over and over that she wants to go back to New York without explaining anything just to get to the finale where she talks about running away from places to see if she misses it was such a facepalm moment for me.

 

Instead of spending time on fairybacks that don't advance the storylines, they should concentrate on writing stories for their characters.  Much as I love Regina's hairdos and clothes in the Enchanted Forest, I'm not really interested in them spending more time on her than they should. 

[stealinghome]

Yeah, I've never been particularly bothered by what Neal said to Emma about home, because he didn't say to her "you should always run away to test whether a place is home." That was Emma's characteristic (bad) application of what he said. Verbatim, what Neal said was:

Neal: But before that? It was home. It was nice. That's how you know you've really got a home...'cause when you leave it, there's this feeling that you can't shake. You just miss it.

I mean, that's pretty much everyone's definition of home (or at least part of it)--the place that you miss when you're not there. The problem is what Emma did with what Neal said, not what Neal said.

 

Rewatching the flashback did make me realize that they did a better job of making MRJ look like an early 20something in 3x22 than they did in 'Tallahassee.' I mean, he still looks too old, but it's not as glaringly obvious in 3x22.

Edited August 10, 2014 by stealinghome

[Camera One]

Instead of spending time on fairybacks that don't advance the storylines, they should concentrate on writing stories for their characters.  Much as I love Regina's hairdos and clothes in the Enchanted Forest, I'm not really interested in them spending more time on her than they should.

 

I definitely agree they should concentrate on writing stories for their characters.  But since I sometimes end up enjoying the fairybacks even more than the present-day story, I think the better way to make time would be to scrap all the Emma love triangle/Captain Swan scenes in Season 3, and devote all of those to Emma's concept of home and her new knowledge of her fairytale past, her developing conception of herself as the Savior and a magic practitioner, and her relationship with her parents.  Two of either Zelena's and Regina's flashbacks should have been showing Emma's past living in the home for orphaned children and her life before "Tallahassee", or even her life after getting out of jail.

Edited August 10, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

 

Yeah, I've never been particularly bothered by what Neal said to Emma about home, because he didn't say to her "you should always run away to test whether a place is home." That was Emma's characteristic (bad) application of what he said.

And too, Emma going back to that may have been more of an excuse than an actual reason. She's had other reasons and excuses for running in the past, so I don't believe this was the only thing holding her back all this time. With Neal on her mind from his recent death, it's probably the first thing she thought of to say. The truth of the matter is her life in Storybrooke is way more complicated than just deciding if she misses it. There are many more variables, like Henry and her family, who she wasn't considering at all.

Edited August 10, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

I blame Neal for a lot of Emma's issues, but I can't see blaming him for Emma picking up something he said about his home and applying it to her own life. He wasn't handing out advice, he was just talking. Emma was someone who'd never had a home and thus, couldn't define it if she ever found it. Emma told Hook that as a kid, she ran away. It's just what she did.  She then went on to say that the first time she did it (which was long before she ever met Neal), she wondered if she'd made a mistake and might miss it. But she never did miss anything. Neal's description of home fit her own life experience of not having one, so she took it and ran with it. In some ways, it gave her justification for always running from everything because even if she knew she should stay somewhere, as long as she didn't miss it, she can rationalize that it was never right for her.

 

All that said, I fully agree that her epiphany came out of nowhere and completely ignored a ton of issues that the writers themselves had set up throughout Season 3. Emma's Lost Girl conversation, Snow's Echo Cave confession, Emma's loss of her family again in "Going Home", Henry's physical well being under constant threat from various villains, Henry fitting into the real world where he belongs and no longer being lonely and friendless, the fact that she was giving up the very nice life she built while supporting an 11 year old after starting with nothing but the clothes on their backs and a 15 year old car. Nope, can't deal with that. Instead Emma sees Snow die and suddenly all of these very real issues aren't important, she needs to live in her parents' back pockets because no one has ever heard of vacations or weekend visits. Realistic character development is not something these writers wanted to put a whole lot of effort into.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Instead Emma sees Snow die and suddenly all of these very real issues aren't important, she needs to live in her parents' back pockets because no one has ever heard of vacations or weekend visits. Realistic character development is not something these writers wanted to put a whole lot of effort into.

The writers dug their own hole on this one, and it's bigger than just Emma making an unrealistic decision in the end - it's about the whole way 3B was setup. Because they didn't commit themselves to the Going Home reset, logic unraveled substantially. They gave Emma complete custody of Henry, gave them entirely new lives, and gave them a new relationship with each other. With all that in the mix, it does not compute for Emma to logically make the choice to stay in Storybrooke. Why in the world would you give up a perfect life to be around people who don't really care about you, and in addition, villains who want to kill you?

 

What worsens the situation is the writers made no effort to make Storybrooke appealing at all. Emma's parents replaced her and an evil witch tried to kill her son. What complicates it further is that Henry's safety wasn't even in Emma's mind - it was about running away. If the writers wanted her and Henry to stay in Storybrooke (which they should), then they needed to give a better reason. 

Edited August 10, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Amerilla]

The writers dug their own hole on this one, and it's bigger than just Emma making an unrealistic decision in the end - it's about the whole way 3B was setup. Because they didn't commit themselves to the Going Home reset, logic unraveled substantially....

 

 

Yes, absolutely. All well said. Even the whole idea that she's actually running away from some super-secret-from-herself feelings for Hook made no sense because Hook isn't stuck in Storybrooke.  

 

In the end, I felt like they muddled the idea of "home."  It's an emotional geography, not a physical one. Dorothy doesn't want to go back to friggin' Kansas - she wants to go back to Auntie Em and Uncle Henry. Nealfire isn't waxing nostalgic about the Little Hovel in the Big Forest - home is pre-Dark One Papa. For Emma, Henry is home. That had become true even before Regina's implanted memories of a false life together.

 

The premise of the show requires Emma to stay in Storybrooke, but the story they've been telling shows that Storybrooke and everyone it in are largely irrelevant to her, at least in terms of what we might call emotional priority. (She's not going to let everyone die, but that doesn't mean she wants to live with them forever.) But because emotion seems to be the writers' Kryptonite, instead of telling that more emotional complicated story - for example, putting Emma in a situation where Henry refuses to leave Storybrooke and she has to make a complicated choice of whether to drag him by his hair back into the real world or acknowledge that the more complicated landscape of his family and life in Storybrooke is the better choice for him, because sometimes our Tallahassee isn't in exactly the same place as that of the one we love - we get this

 

But because emotion seems to be the writers' Kryptonite, instead of telling that more emotional complicated story - for example, putting Emma in a situation where Henry refuses to leave Storybrooke and she has to make a complicated choice of whether to drag him by his hair back into the real world or acknowledge that the more complicated landscape of his family and life in Storybrooke is the better choice for him, because sometimes our Tallahassee isn't in exactly the same place as that of the one we love - we get this

 

ut because emotion seems to be the writers' Kryptonite, instead of telling that more emotional complicated story - for example, putting Emma in a situation where Henry refuses to leave Storybrooke and she has to make a complicated choice of whether to drag him by his hair back into the real world or acknowledge that the more complicated landscape of his family and life in Storybrooke is the better choice for him, because sometimes our Tallahassee isn't in exactly the same place as that of the one we love - we get this bumblef**k though the Enchanted Forest...a journey which told her nothing about Snow and Charming she didn't already know, and more about Rumple and Regina than she probably wanted to know, and had that be the basis for her choice.

 

Gah! It's been months and I'm still mad. still mad. 

Sorry for the duplicated paragraphs. Anyone else have trouble with the text editor having a mind of its own?

Edited August 11, 2014 by Amerilla

[FabulousTater]

I think it was Ella123 back on TWoP who first mentioned this, but this show is shit when it tries to do long term emotional arcs. The writers are completely incapable of it. We might as well be asking a gorilla to solve a calculus problem and expect a correct answer. It's just not gonna freaking happen. What the writers are actually decent at is silly fun with the emotional maturity level of 12 year olds. The season finale while infuriating because of the sudden leap of emotional logic Emma came to (among other things --  Snowing you're not allowed to name any thing ever again), it was for the most part fun. I think it was fun to watch Emma and Hook running around the Enchanted Forest trying to set the timeline back on track and then get back. But the emotional conclusions were so out of nowhere and completely and utterly unearned (srsly, the baby naming still makes me want to smash the TV, burn my entire house down, and start writing threatening letters to the writers from a cabin in the woods) that it took me out of that fun and put me right back into the "WTF? Why do I torture myself watching this crap?!"

 

All this is to say, that I think I agree with Ella123's assessment from ages ago -- the writers need to stop pretending they can write intelligent emotional drama and stick to the slapstick dark adventures that 10 year olds (and adults who have given up their brains for the evening) would find exhilarating.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Dorothy doesn't want to go back to friggin' Kansas - she wants to go back to Auntie Em and Uncle Henry.

 

Dorothy actually moves to Oz eventually with her Auntie Em and Uncle Henry, so your point is very true!

 

 

I think it was Ella123 back on TWoP who first mentioned this, but this show is shit when it tries to do long term emotional arcs. The writers are completely incapable of it.

 

They have done emotional arcs well before, but they don't seem to plan it out any more. Emma's arc in S1 was solid and paced well for the most part, but her home arc in 3B was boring and unconvincing. It's that "case-by-case" writing instead of long-term strategy that causes a heap of problems. 

Edited August 11, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

the writers need to stop pretending they can write intelligent emotional drama and stick to the slapstick dark adventures that 10 year olds (and adults who have given up their brains for the evening) would find exhilarating.

 

It's the writers "trying" which at least gives us 2 minutes of good stuff every third episode.  If they weren't trying at all, we'd have Evil Rapunzel in a hood or CGI winged monkeys chasing people around a forest for an hour.  No thanks.

Edited August 11, 2014 by Camera One

[daxx]

Just rewatched from Saving Henry to The Tower today. On rewatch the current day stuff is far more watchable than the fairy backs. I found myself skipping big hunks of the flashbacks. The Tower is nearly unwatchable altogether.

One thing I did notice is that Colin has a great hairdresser. Lol

I do so wish they had just a single scene of Henry, Emma and Hook driving to Storybrooke. I think it would have been much better if we didn't get back to Storybrooke until midway through the second episode. It kinda ruined the drama of it disappearing.

[stealinghome]

The thing is, S1 proved to me that the writers CAN do decent long-term emotional arcs if they just *try hard enough*. So I refuse to let them off the hook by saying they can't. They can, they just choose not to.

[FabulousTater]

It's the writers "trying" which at least gives us 2 minutes of good stuff every third episode.  If they weren't trying at all, we'd have Evil Rapunzel in a hood or CGI winged monkeys chasing people around a forest for an hour.  No thanks.

But 2 minutes every third episode isn't a show worth watching, not even in passing. That's a tumblr gif at best. My point is that those 2 minutes every third episode we do get are ultimately a cruel tease. Nothing ever carries over from those 2 minutes, they aren't interconnected episode to episode in anyway, there are no consequences to those dramatic conversations, so what the hell is the point other than to drive us mad?

 

And I'm not talking about CGI-ing the bejeezus out of the show. The finale wasn't too CGI-ish, and yet I thought it was fun. Emma and Hook were off on an adventure and crossed paths with everyone else. It had enough "tension" and humor to it to keep it interesting. It's not gonna win any awards, but it was entertaining until the last 10 minutes.

 

Look, I think the season 3 finale was fun. But for me it was those 2 minute emotional moments (well, it was two episodes so 4 minutes total) that while yes, they were well acted, just weren't in the overall satisfying enough and as a result were rather disappointing because they merely highlight how disjointed the writing is. So, IMO, just stop pretending. Apparently, writing emotional drama causes brain sprains in the writers room.

 

The thing is, S1 proved to me that the writers CAN do decent long-term emotional arcs if they just *try hard enough*.

What season 1 tells me is that they can write it if they have a different writing staff (because dollars to donuts there was a writer or two on that staff in season 1 that was paying attention to the long term emotional arcs so that they made sense, one writer in particular that left for a different show in season 2, but I can't recall her name now) AND if they have 8 years to work on it (because that's how long they've said in interviews they worked on the project before pitching it to ABC). But the writers don't have eight years to figure their shit out now. They quite obviously had no plan past breaking the curse in s1 and it shows. Painfully and horrendously shows. And clearly two years isn't enough either because s2 was crap and s3 only a marginal improvement over 2 (which is saying very, very little).

 

I think in many ways the writers did give up on the "drama". The emphasis on plot over all else seems evident of that. It's just they failed to distribute a memo to the audience informing us that the nice drama that they had setup in s1 was never going to be dealt with ever again and we shouldn't ever expect anything of that "depth". Ever. Again. After season 2 and 3 I think I've got the message.

 

ETA:

Look, given the option to watch whole episodes worth of emotional drama/ the "good stuff" or a fluffy adventure show I would take the drama in a hot second. It's the drama of s1 that pulled me into this show to begin with. I would love for Emma and Snow and Charming to have actually worked their shit out on screen. But clearly, the "drama" of s1 was some sort of fluke. When you've got 3 seasons of a show under your belt but for the last two (two-thirds of the entire series!) you've been resigned to getting only 2 minutes of worthwhile drama every third episode...well, for me to expect the show to now "rediscover" the value of a long term, cohesive emotional arcs would be insanity. So I think it's best just to watch for the fluff (if at all).

Edited August 11, 2014 by FabulousTater

[KingOfHearts]

The major difference between S1's Emma arc and 3B's is that S1 chipped away bit by bit. She became softer as the season went on, with people like Jefferson and August giving her brain proof to chew on. Another difference is S1 went over the course of several months, while 3B only lasted a week tops. Emma's arc is more drawn out, so it feels more organic and less rushed. While S1 was gradual, 3B was stagnant until the finale when she went down to up in a matter of hours. 
 

 

AND if they have 8 years to work on it (because that's how long they've said in interviews they worked on the project before pitching it to ABC). But the writers don't have eight years to figure their shit out now. And clearly two years isn't enough either because s2 was crap and s3 only a marginal improvement over 2 (which is saying very, very little).

 

It's my theory that the show's original plan "finished out" in S2. S1 was their darling child, so they worked out every detail of it meticulously. After S1, the writing isn't nearly as tight or detailed. It's a noticeable difference. S2 probably tied up all the loose ends they wanted to do from the beginning, like Neal for instance.

Edited August 11, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[kili]

Marian will die because she is out of time. She doesn't belong in SB. I don't think a character can cheat death. If they were supposed to die, I think they will. The only question I have is what does she change in the time she is there. Any negative changes should be held against Emma, but I sure the writers will ignore it, as usual.

 

What is a negative change to the timeline in the future? We wouldn't know it.

 

Not allowing the timeline to change in the past was all about creating a stable time loop. If Zelena had succeeded in changing time or Snow/Charming hadn't met, an unstable time loop would have been created. Zelena used The Baby Who Shall Not Be Named and Regina to cast her time travel spell. If those two people do not exist (Zelena's time change would have wiped out them both and Snow/Charming not falling in love wipes out the baby), how does Zelena cast the spell in the new timeline? How does she even get the motivation to do it if she is all happy?

 

Going forward, how do we judge if what Marian does is a negative or a positive to the timeline? Marian is now part of the timeline. Her actions are just as valid as anybody else's. Hook and Emma could have tried killing Regina in the past to prevent all the evil that she goes onto do, but that was never an option for them because it would mess up the timeline creating the unstable loop. Regina's actions are morally negative, but they are not negatives to the timeline. They are simply part of it.

 

I would argue that whether Marian goes on to be Storybrooke's Mother Teresa or evil itself, that's only on Marian. Emma took a person who was going to be executed for protecting somebody and saved their life. That's a good deed period.

 

Snow saved a peasant girl from being executed in the village for dissing the Evil Queen. Snow did a good deed period. That it turned out the peasant girl would go onto do many evil things (because she really was the Evil Queen in disguise) does not make Snow responsible for those crimes.

[Mari]

I would argue that whether Marian goes on to be Storybrooke's Mother Teresa or evil itself, that's only on Marian.

So unlike my worry in the Emma thread, it wasn't just my Emma Bias showing?  I was a little worried about that.

Edited August 11, 2014 by Mari

[Shanna Marie]

If I ignore the context, I love the season 3 finale. I'm really good at headcanon, so I just mentally make up some scenes and conversations to fill in the blanks leading up to the episode, and then I just go along for the ride.

 

I hit "Selfless, Brave and True" in my rewatch, and my rewatch is now stalled. That one just makes me so very angry, not so much for the Pinocchio stuff or the fact that Regina has the nerve to act like Greg/Owen was the one who wronged her, but for the Dark Snow stuff. This is where the morality wonkiness goes off the deep end. It enrages me that it's considered a symptom of a dark spot on the heart for Snow to be angry upon learning that a friend's lies to her caused her daughter to grow up utterly alone, feeling unloved and abandoned. What human being wouldn't have been furious about that? But there's all that angst and "oh, that wasn't me, I'm not like that." Getting angry doesn't mean Snow's a bad person. Anyone would have been angry under those circumstances. What makes Snow a good person is the fact that once she calms down, she's able to see things from Gepetto's perspective and understand what he did and sympathize, then apologize for hitting him, accept his apology and mend the relationship with no hard feelings on either side. Someone like Regina would have either killed him on the spot or set out to destroy him and never recognized the fact that she would have done the same thing or worse in a desperate attempt to save her own son. To her, it would have been totally okay and understandable when she did it but unforgivable when someone else does it.

 

So I'm taking a break from my rewatch so I can marathon season two of Orphan Black (if my OnDemand service would quit acting flaky), and then I'll finish season 2 of this show right before I get the season 3 DVDs.

[stealinghome]

As far as I'm concerned, the only way Emma saving Marian is a negative is if it turns out that saving Marian actually endangered the entire space-time continuum and reality itself. If that happens, then yes, I would say Emma saving Marian is a mistake. Past that, however, I don't think it is. As @kili points out, people's actions are always on them and them alone. Even if Marian is actually Zelena or who knows who else in disguise, that person is still making their own choice to do evil--that's not on Emma. If it's Zelena, for example, she could just choose to turn over a new leaf and change her life...take the choice that was offered to her.

 

By the show's logic (yes, I laughed to myself typing that), if Emma saving someone she thinks is innocent makes her ultimately wrong, then Snow was ultimately wrong to save Regina in 'The Evil Queen.' And yet....

[KingOfHearts]

As far as bringing Marian goes, the only thing Hook and Emma really did that was iffy was not asking her more questions about who she was. Marian's excuse for not revealing her name was because she didn't want Regina to hear, but there was plenty of time after that in the forest where she could have been questioned. 

Edited August 11, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Jean]

The major difference between S1's Emma arc and 3B's is that S1 chipped away bit by bit. She became softer as the season went on, with people like Jefferson and August giving her brain proof to chew on. Another difference is S1 went over the course of several months, while 3B only lasted a week tops. Emma's arc is more drawn out, so it feels more organic and less rushed. While S1 was gradual, 3B was stagnant until the finale when she went down to up in a matter of hours.

I think the only reason S1 worked was because "I don't believe in magic" wasn't repeated every episode. We know the arc for S1 was for Emma to believe in magic/break curse but it wasn't an in your face topic every episode. It was brewing unobtrusively in the background. There were other bigger things to focus on each episode and Emma had other bigger and better things to do.

In 3B between the premiere and finale Emma had like 3 lines each episode and one of them was always "I want to go back to New York." Literally. They didn't even bother pulling out the thesaurus and switching it up a little like "I'd like to return to to my swanky apartment in Manhattan." Also she had nothing to do in all those episodes besides pop up and repeat the New York line so that's what people focused on. She didn't have an arc in 3B. What she was, was the the McDonald's worker whose most important role is to only say "Would you like fries with that?"

[kitticup]

Instead of spending time on fairybacks that don't advance the storylines, they should concentrate on writing stories for their characters.  Much as I love Regina's hairdos and clothes in the Enchanted Forest, I'm not really interested in them spending more time on her than they should. 

 

This so much!  I think the show is often damaged (not always) by the need to make the  StoryBrook and Fairy Back about the same main character, even when the fairyback adds nothing new.  I don't need to see yet another fairyback of Regina trying to kill Snow.  Because the main story and fairyback will take most of the episode, it doesn't leave room for other characters emotional arcs to span multiple episodes.  This stops any momentum carrying from one episode to the next.   

 

While I want to see Emma work things out with the Charmings, I won't want that to be the whole show.  I may complain about Regina and Rumple but I find the characters entertaining and when done right, very compelling. Honestly, I would rather see Regina and Snow build a real relationship, where Regina finally acknowledges that she was wrong and Snow gets to be angry about everything Regina has done to her and cost her.

 

I like Hook.  He is entertaining and compelling to me.    I like that he got angry because Rumple killed Milah.  His quest for revenge makes sense unlike Regina's.  I like that he often adds a sense of lightness and fun into the show at least in Season 2.  He was the only one that didn't take himself too seriously.  I loved the innenudos because they made me laugh.  Sometimes this show takes itself too seriously.  Season 3 Hook wasn't as light or fun, but he was there for Emma in a way that no one else's has been.  I like his redemption arc.

[Amerilla]

I was just watching an extended scene from The Tower, where Zelena talks with Belle in Gold's shop before freezing her and stealing the Dreamshade from the safe. ABC/Disney is pulling down links as fast as they go up, but at the moment, there's a working version at this Tumblr:

 

http://storybrookemirror.tumblr.com/post/94435152551/once-upon-a-time-season-3-deleted-scenes-part

 

I know there's been discussion here about how Belle working in Gold's shop, selling his victim's own belongings back to them, is another sign of how she's the gangster's mol / serial killer's girlfriend / Stockholm Syndrome poster girl...but it's clear in the extended version that what's going on is a bit different. 

 

Belle tells Zelena that the shop is closed, but because a lot of things "gravitated" to the shop during the Curse, that if she's missing something specific, to describe it and Belle will look for it. Combined with her giving Zelena a baby trinket for Mary Margaret at no charge, the clear implication is that Belle is repatriating what she can to the people who claim their losses....not keeping the mercenary flame of Mr Gold's Pawnshop and Antiquities open in his honor, much less trying to profit from it. She's also much more clearly grieving her loss - since this is right after the return to Storybrooke, in her memory, Gold's death is not a year in the past and she doesn't know yet that he's been brought back - and Zelena gets extra space to twist the knife a little deeper into "Mrs Gold's" open wounds.

 

I put this here not as a defense of Belle (because I understand where a lot of the criticism of the character comes from), but rather to expand our discussion of the flaws of the storytelling on show. We put a lot on the writers, and certainly they are the richest, almost manure-like, source of poor characterization in the Once-iverse.  But the editors play a role as well: they have to take scenes and figure out what can stay and what can go to fit in the allotted 42-minute episode. If 60 minutes of script are filmed for each show, and only 42 make it to the screen, 30 percent of what the writers have written falls by the wayside, and there's a good chance that about 10% of that is stuff we in the audience would really like to see.  It could be that the writers do actually think though some of those questions we ask, and the actors are basing some of their analysis of their characters on what they've filmed in totality, but it never actually gets to the TV. 

Edited August 11, 2014 by Amerilla

[YaddaYadda]

Actually after watching this (and really good for Belle for trying to do the right this) is why does Gold have Dreamshade and why does Zelena want it?  Was there ever a mention on the show of this at all?  Because either my memories have been cursed or they never used this.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Actually after watching this (and really good for Belle for trying to do the right this) is why does Gold have Dreamshade and why does Zelena want it?  Was there ever a mention on the show of this at all?

It wasn't Dreamshade, it was Nightroot. Zelena wanted it so she could sprinkle it into Charming's tea to draw his courage out.

[YaddaYadda]

Oh well that answers that.  The Tower was a pretty awful episode, save for the part with Emma and David dancing together.

[KingOfHearts]

I found The Tower boring. The Rapunzel stuff was just predictable and dull. Almost nothing happened in the present day.

[Camera One]

Wow, they really like writing dragged out Zelena scenes, don't they?

 

 

 

Belle tells Zelena that the shop is closed, but because a lot of things "gravitated" to the shop during the Curse, that if she's missing something specific, to describe it and Belle will look for it.

 

I did like that they attempted to explain what was actually going on in Mr. Gold's shop (or at least how Belle "ran" it after Gold died).  

 

Belle had some nice moments showing her grief, but the Zelena parts dragged so much that I am glad they cut it down.

 

 

 

Combined with her giving Zelena a baby trinket for Mary Margaret at no charge, the clear implication is that Belle is repatriating what she can to the people who claim their losses....not keeping the mercenary flame of Mr Gold's Pawnshop and Antiquities open in his honor, much less trying to profit from it.

 

The only thing it left me wondering is, what if that baby trinket belonged to someone?  Then, she just gave away someone else's possession.

 

 

 

I put this here not as a defense of Belle (because I understand where a lot of the criticism of the character comes from), but rather to expand our discussion of the flaws of the storytelling on show. We put a lot on the writers, and certainly they are the richest, almost manure-like, source of poor characterization in the Once-iverse.  But the editors play a role as well: they have to take scenes and figure out what can stay and what can go to fit in the allotted 42-minute episode. If 60 minutes of script are filmed for each show, and only 42 make it to the screen, 30 percent of what the writers have written falls by the wayside, and there's a good chance that about 10% of that is stuff we in the audience would really like to see.  It could be that the writers do actually think though some of those questions we ask, and the actors are basing some of their analysis of their characters on what they've filmed in totality, but it never actually gets to the TV.

 

Well said.  That's why I wish there were more deleted scenes.  Overall, "The Tower" was poorly edited and I'm not sure if even this scene should have made the cut.  For an episode about Charming, it had precious few scenes with Emma and even Snow, and for that, I still blame the writers since the whole allocation of time in that episode stressed Zelena's long con and action sequences with the hooded figure.

Edited August 11, 2014 by Camera One

[Amerilla]

The only thing it left me wondering is, what if that baby trinket belonged to someone?  Then, she just gave away someone else's possession.

The thought crossed my mind as well. But, then, they've always been somewhat ambiguous about the contents of the shop and whether it functions as an actual pawnshop. Some of the stuff in it was clearly brought from the EF. Some of was created by the Curse itself (radios, bikes,other modern things in the background). And while Gold may be a maniac, he's not necessarily a kleptomaniac - a lot of his acquisitions were payment for services rendered, not stolen or pilfered goods. Plus, given his lifespan, a number of items would have no living owners, or even living inheritors. I can headcanon that that's why Belle is looking through a ledger in the scene - what belongs to whom?

My personal choice would have been for Belle to retrieve the unicorn mobile, because that would have been returning something to its proper owner, and we know it's something Gold has.

[Camera One]

My personal choice would have been for Belle to retrieve the unicorn mobile, because that would have been returning something to its proper owner, and we know it's something Gold has.

 

I want Snow to take permanent possession of that back, though I wouldn't have wanted Zelena's icky hands to touch it.

 

Too bad it wasn't a magic mobile which points out evil folk.  I still think that Snow should have identified Zelena as an imposter on her own.  Or at least have *some* nagging doubts.

Edited August 11, 2014 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

 

I still think that Snow should have identified Zelena as an imposter on her own.  Or at least have *some* nagging doubts.

 

Even Emma should have had doubts on that one. Not sure why she didn't think to even meet her.

Edited August 11, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Joenigma]

 

The major difference between S1's Emma arc and 3B's is that S1 chipped away bit by bit.

The Major difference is S1 Emma had an Arc which the writers focused on. In season 3 (And 2 really) Emma is really an afterthought.

 

I enjoyed the Season 3 finale. The issue I have isn't so much the episode but the storyline themselves. Emma could have been used to bridge 3A and 3B together.

3A should have focused on Emma and her "Lost Girl" past. And her relationship with her parents should have been explored more after her revelation that revealed the map that she was alone, and had no one and even with being reunited with her parents she still feels alone. Hell she could even admit that because of Regina she doesn't have a Home even with Henry (which would have made Regina's gift to give Emma memories of a life with Henry more meaning).

 

3B should have been, at least for Emma; coping with losing the "Home" she always wanted. Granted it was an illusion but for a year it was real. Those memories probably meant more to her than the others know. Not only that; she lost it because her parents need her to save them; which brings me to my final point. Zelena should have been defeated by Emma NOT Regina. If Emma was the one who was able to use White Magic to save everybody and then wanting to go back to NY, The finale would have been more meaningful.

 

Emma should have been the bridge between 3A and 3B and all they had to do was add a little more focus to the main character, but they didn't.

[Camera One]

I would have liked that.  If Regina had to gain white magic, then maybe she should have been truly tested first, with the Robin/Marion debacle, and they could have her access some white magic at the end of Season 4 after a gradual development of Regina struggling to be good, trying to resist giving in to her old impulses, maybe making a few mistakes here and there along the way.

 

With Emma, thus far, she had only been able to do magic under emergency circumstances.  She learned a bit in Neverland, and then in 3B, she had one lesson from Regina on that bridge, and declared by the next episode, she had mastered it.  She had no difficulty dealing with the fact that she could do magic.  We didn't even know how much she valued it.  Then, she lost it with The CPR Kiss.  Was she relieved?  Disappointed?  But at the end of the Season 3 finale, Emma was again able to access her magic to reopen the Time Portal, which meant she made huge progress.  But the stop and go nature of this development in S3 was completely incoherent and didn't even feel planned out.  Plus they didn't mine the potential struggles Emma might have experienced as she realized she could do magic.  Technically, even Snow and Charming should have had some interesting mental dilemmas about whether it was good that their daughter was learning magic, or at least be a little worried she was learning from Regina.  So "Emma learns to do magic" - that alone could have been explored so much better in S3.  At this point, Emma's erratic ability to do magic is getting to the level of the Blue Fairy showing up with her selective criteria of what she does and what she doesn't.  I wonder if this is so they can limit Emma's powers but the problem with that is she ends up looking useless and pathetic.  But they never feel the need to limit Regina and Rumple's magic.  Zelena, Cora and Peter Pan could also do whatever the hell they wanted.

Edited August 11, 2014 by Camera One

[stealinghome]

At this point, Emma erratic ability to do magic is getting to the level of the Blue Fairy showing up with her selective criteria of what she does and what she doesn't.  I wonder if this is so they can limit Emma's powers but the problem with that is she ends up looking useless and pathetic.

Bingo. The real problem is that the writers want Emma to have magic when it's convenient for them, and not when they don't.

[Joenigma]

 

If Regina had to gain white magic, then maybe she should have been truly tested first,

Or better yet, considering how in 3A (and part in 3B) Regina helped train Emma on how to use Magic, what if through Emma that's how Regina was able to tap into her white magic potential and together defeated Zelena. But again, focus wasn't on Emma.

[RadioGirl27]

A big yes to all your post Joenigma.

For me the problem is that the writers lost interest in Emma after season 1, and they just don't know what to do with her. She is too real and so are her problems and issues. They clearly prefer their flashy fairytale characters. That is the reason why we have seen way too much flashback of Snow and Regina trying to kill each other and none of Emma's childhood or her life after Neal and pre Storybrooke. And, really, she is a very interesting character. I hope this changes in season 4, but I don't hold my breath.

[Joenigma]

 

For me the problem is that the writers lost interest in Emma after season 1, and they just don't know what to do with her.

That's it Folks. Everything that is wrong with Once Upon A Time is summed up in this quote.

[Shanna Marie]

There's a huge structural issue with 3B that makes me think they didn't actually outline the entire story before they started producing episodes.

 

On the one hand, they set it up so that the situation is personal for Regina. The villain is her half-sister, who's directly targeting her by wanting to wipe out her existence and take her place. There's some interesting symmetry and thematic stuff going on here, as Regina has the chance to get a look in a figurative mirror and see just how crazy these elaborate evil schemes for fixing one's life really are when the real problem is the person inside. Zelena would still be unhappy if she replaced Regina because she's an unhappy person, just as Regina wasn't happy with her revenge against Snow because she's an unhappy person. Structurally, this is set up so that Regina needs to be the one to defeat Zelena by finding what she's never had and what Zelena would never find: happiness that comes from within and that doesn't depend on other people.

 

On the other hand, they also set it up as a confrontation between Emma's light magic and Zelena's dark magic. The curse was done for the sole purpose of getting to Emma so she could defeat Zelena, but then doing that would mean Emma facing up to who she was and accepting her position as a magical being. It's possible that she would have had to open her heart to the love of her parents and to Hook to be able to truly tap into the depth of her power. Except they totally forgot about this (even though that revelation came pretty late in the season) and Emma's presence ended up being meaningless.

 

If I were playing story editor here, I think I might have first come up with an additional reason for the curse -- they found out that Monkey Walsh had been sent after Emma, so it's not just about needing Emma's help but also about knowing that Emma was in danger that she'd be utterly oblivious to while her memories were altered. Then I would have made defeating Zelena more of a team effort, where it took both Emma and Regina. I might even have gone a little wacky and have had Emma sent into the portal during the battle with Zelena, so that after all her epiphanies and revelations in the Enchanted Forest (I might also have moved the confession that Hook traded his ship for the bean so he could reach her so that it happened before they returned), she came back loaded for bear and much more in tune with her powers so that upon her return she was able to defeat Zelena. Regina's role would have been holding off Zelena to keep her out of the portal so she couldn't alter time, but then there was some backfire and Emma got sent instead.

[KAOS Agent]

 

For me the problem is that the writers lost interest in Emma after season 1, and they just don't know what to do with her. For me the problem is that the writers lost interest in Emma after season 1, and they just don't know what to do with her.

 

Considering the nonsense I've heard that in the DVD commentary the writers said that the Emma/Snow conversation in "Lost Girl" was originally written as an Emma/Hook one, I've come to conclusion that they really don't care about dealing with the very real issues they gave Emma. I mean, it makes sense that Hook would understand that Emma was a Lost Girl since he took one look at her and knew she was an orphan, so him being the one to figure it out does work, but that the writers didn't immediately recognize that this moment should be about Emma and facing her relationship issues with her parents (and her mother in particular) is really indicative of their mindset about the Emma character and the Charming family in general. I know we all complained that the Lost Girl flashbacks were of Snowing and not of Young!Emma, but hearing this news just makes me want to throw things. I remember even Ginny and Jen being so excited about this scene (and I think JMo said it was one of her favorites of the series) and finally starting to address it all and now I find that it wasn't part of the initial plan? I love that someone stepped up and fixed it so that it happened because it was wonderful, but what the hell?

[Camera One]

I've heard that in the DVD commentary the writers said that the Emma/Snow conversation in "Lost Girl" was originally written as an Emma/Hook one

 

If that is indeed true... I have no words.

[YaddaYadda]

Considering the nonsense I've heard that in the DVD commentary the writers said that the Emma/Snow conversation in "Lost Girl" was originally written as an Emma/Hook one,

 

Really?  As in for real?  That might explain what happened in the Echo Caves then.  They changed the convo from Emma/Hook to Emma/MM but didn't bother making changes to whatever happened in the Echo Caves.  That's the only thing that makes sense regarding the fuckery that ensued after Lost Girl.

[stealinghome]

If that is indeed true... I have no words.

Oh, I have words...I just shouldn't utter them in polite company.

 

Sorry to all Hook fans, but I really think I would like the character at least 10% more if I didn't feel like Emma's relationship with her parents consistently got pushed to the side so that the writers could rush Captain Swan. It's irrational to blame the character for that, I know, but it still annoys the crap out of me. It just--it amazes me that they can be so blind as to the fact that that is what interests fans. After S1, all anyone could talk about was what would happen when Snowing "met" Emma. ARGH.

 

The ironic thing is that the show's most successful season was also the one where they didn't foist a bunch of real love interests on Emma.

[Shanna Marie]

That might explain what happened in the Echo Caves then.  They changed the convo from Emma/Hook to Emma/MM but didn't bother making changes to whatever happened in the Echo Caves.

Yeah, as much as I think the conversation needed to be between Emma and her mother, in context of all the other stuff that went on, it might have made more sense to have been between Emma and Hook. For one thing, it keeps Mary Margaret from looking like a raging dunce if she doesn't know that her daughter sees herself as a Lost Girl and then immediately starts talking about how adult Emma isn't the daughter she wanted because she wanted to raise a baby and that she wants a new baby. If that's a secret between Emma and Hook, her parents look a lot less insensitive (though, really, it's not exactly brain surgery to figure out how she must have felt growing up). And if the story Hook told Bae about his own background is at all true, then he'd be uniquely suited to understand the sense of abandonment because he's been there. He wouldn't be expecting her to just get over it and be all happy families now that she's found her parents. I'm sure he would have some choice words for his father if he ever saw him again, even if he might be glad to find him.

 

But really, the better option would have been for the scene to be between Emma and her mother and then the subsequent scenes between her and her parents actually take that scene into consideration and make it seem as though Mary Margaret really heard and understood what Emma was saying.

 

In my headcanon, the reason Emma doesn't act like she minds all that much is that she still can't quite make the connection between these people and her parents (up until the season three finale) -- she knows intellectually that they are, but it just doesn't compute. They're strangers, people out of a storybook, not the kind of real people who can be her parents. And if total strangers act that way, it's no big deal. At least they're nice to her, which is probably better than a lot of foster parents she had. So when they turn around and say and do boneheaded things that disregard her after trying to play "parent" to her, it's just par for the course in her life.

[Camera One]

There's "magic comes with a price", "Pan never fails" and "Wicked always win".  Though the correct motto for the show is "No good deed goes unpunished".  Emma saves Marion's life and she's ripped into for it.  Snow saves a peasant girl and it's freak'in Regina in disguise.  Leopold frees a genie and he gets murdered.  Red's boyfriend agrees to be tied down and he gets eaten.  Wendy goes to save Bae and gets trapped in a cage for a hundred years.  Rumple helps an old beggar and gets tricked into becoming the Dark One.  Regina helps save a girl from a horse and falls right into her mother's manipulative plans.    

[ParadoxLost]

Yeah, as much as I think the conversation needed to be between Emma and her mother, in context of all the other stuff that went on, it might have made more sense to have been between Emma and Hook. For one thing, it keeps Mary Margaret from looking like a raging dunce if she doesn't know that her daughter sees herself as a Lost Girl and then immediately starts talking about how adult Emma isn't the daughter she wanted because she wanted to raise a baby and that she wants a new baby. If that's a secret between Emma and Hook, her parents look a lot less insensitive (though, really, it's not exactly brain surgery to figure out how she must have felt growing up).

 

Through most of season 3 it felt like they were building up an alienation between Snow and Emma.  You've got Snow in a I wanna do over baby mode.  Not being overly upset about Emma in NYC while she is sent back to EF.  Emma confiding in Charming and Hook about wanting to leave and none of them cluing in Snow and Snow having no reaction when she finds out.  The time travel led to Emma's epiphany that she found/saved her Mother and her Mother didn't know her which somehow led to Emma's decision to stay.  I really believe that the writers think they have tied up the Charmings in a nice little satisfying bow.

 

Except this is a story about a Mother and Daughter and they forgot to include the Mother in the story.  Snow comes off so Zen that I'm not sure she hasn't had a lobotomy.

[myril]

Except this is a story about a Mother and Daughter and they forgot to include the Mother in the story.  Snow comes off so Zen that I'm not sure she hasn't had a lobotomy.

 

I am not even sure, if they noticed, that there is a mother AND daughter in that story.

Edited August 12, 2014 by katusch

[RadioGirl27]

You know, the problem is that I think they don't see anything wrong in the way the are writting Snow and Emma's relationship, and they probably think season 3 finale was enough. It's Tallahasee all over again, when they thought that an adult man sending his pregnant teenage girlfriend to jail for his crimes was an epic love story.

[Amerilla]

In my headcanon, the reason Emma doesn't act like she minds all that much is that she still can't quite make the connection between these people and her parents (up until the season three finale) -- she knows intellectually that they are, but it just doesn't compute. They're strangers, people out of a storybook, not the kind of real people who can be her parents. And if total strangers act that way, it's no big deal. At least they're nice to her, which is probably better than a lot of foster parents she had. So when they turn around and say and do boneheaded things that disregard her after trying to play "parent" to her, it's just par for the course in her life.

 

 

I don't even think that's headcanon. I think that's the way it's played (both by Jen and by Gosh), and I think that's really the only way it can be played. Even if Emma had grown up in less harsh circumstances, even if she'd been looking for parental love all her life, there's no way a 30-year old woman is going to suddenly start seeing two 35-year old strangers as her "parents," and there's no way two 35-year olds whose newborn was ripped from their lives when she was still damp are going to wake up one day and know how to "parent" a grown-ass woman. They can be a family, yes, but never a parent-child relationship. I just wish the show would be a little more forthright about it. 

[ShadowFacts]

 

They can be a family, yes, but never a parent-child relationship. I just wish the show would be a little more forthright about it.

 

Yes, I have said this also.  Aside from being age peers and not having shared experiences, Emma actually has more experience being a parent than they do.  So it's really hard to think of her as the child in the relationship.  And it's why I sort of cringe when she calls them Mom or Dad (I know that's been discussed extensively already).