A Thread for All Seasons: OUaT Across All Realms

[eurekagirl mOo]

I got way behind and attempted to watch o Demand last night. BIG mistake. They show 1 commercial. Over and over and over......I quit after a show and a half.

[andromeda331]

9 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Whenever I rewatch Sympathy for the DeVil, I ignore the present and just watch for the flashbacks. It becomes a great episode when you take out the stupidity.

That's the only way I rewatch Once Upon a Time. Fast forward past all of the woeRegina, the eggnapping and Neal its a much better show.

[Rumsy4]

Same here. That's why my rewatches are typically more enjoyable. I didn't  do even that in 4B.

[Shanna Marie]

I almost never watch whole episodes when rewatching. I tend to watch the storylines or characters or even just scenes I like.

Thinking about it, the resets may be the show's biggest problem because they encompass the lack of consequences and the characters not being allowed to react to events like human beings. I said after last season that you could skip from the end of the season 3 finale (other than the Elsa reveal) to the end of the season 4 finale, at the point where they find out what's happening with Rumple, and you wouldn't be all that confused. You might wonder who that Apprentice guy was and you'd assume that Marian returning didn't affect Robin and Regina's relationship, after all, but you wouldn't be missing anything major in the story. Rumple and Belle are together like they were at the end of season 3, none of the events of season 4 really changed the situation or the characters. The only sense of forward progression is that Emma and Hook went from their first real kiss to an "I love you" and Hook started wearing modern clothes.

Now, you could skip directly from the end of the season 3 finale (aside from the Elsa part) to the beginning of the season 5 finale without being too confused. Henry has a girlfriend and a magic pen, the role of Belle is now being played by a box, and Zelena is somehow still alive/alive again and has a baby that's Roland's little sister, but otherwise nothing that happened in all of seasons 4 and 5 really matters. Robin's death gets pretty much the same plotline/reaction as Robin going back to his wife created, with Regina lashing out at Emma and whining about feeling like she's under a curse because she was a villain (hey, what kind of curse is sweet little Roland under, since he's now lost both parents?). Emma and Hook have still just moved to "I love you." If you hadn't been watching season 5 until the finale, you might have missed that up until the end of the previous episode, Hook was dead and has now miraculously returned. The reaction to him showing up at the diner looks more like he was crashing a party he wasn't invited to or that maybe he had planned to leave town and changed his mind. You don't see any difference in Hook and Emma from having been Dark Ones or having been separated by death. I guess David seeming to give a damn about Hook is a change, but that actually flows pretty well from the end of season 3, when he and Henry sent Hook to talk Emma down and then David assured "Prince Charles" that "Princess Leia's" parents were sure to accept him after everything he'd done for her.

I wonder if they're trying to make the show less serialized, so you can jump in at any point, but I don't think it's accessible for new viewers because the set-up and the character interrelationships are too complex to pick up on. It's pretty serialized within the arcs, so you can't jump in during an arc. All they're doing it making it so that if someone who's seen the first few seasons doesn't like an arc, they can drop out for a season and come back at the season finale when things are reset again. Meanwhile, if you're still watching, apathy sets in because nothing really seems to matter. If something as extreme as dying, being tortured, experiencing the Underworld, being ready to move on to heaven, coming face-to-face with an actual god, and coming back to life because of an act of god doesn't change a person and his relationships, then we're just watching paper dolls being moved around against a backdrop.

[KingOfHearts]

The show takes an episodic approach to serialization, which sounds contradictory. Each arc the focus is on a certain set of characters and there are very little consequences that bleed into the next arc. One year we could be tackling Frozen, another the Underworld, etc. With few exceptions, the guest characters either die or move to Offscreenville. Whatever is explored with the main characters is often reset so we can retread it later. So while it's supposed to be akin to shows like Lost, it doesn't evolve, change, or take risks. In that way, it tends to follow an episodic pattern. Really it tries to go both ways but fails in both.

There have been occasions where the show has committed to telling close-ended stories. Most of the time that happens, the writing quality is better. Examples include Frozen or Cruella's backstory. Whenever the show attempts to grasps grander sagas, like with the Missing Year, it bites off more than it can chew. The writers seem to do better whenever the story is smaller and they have a well-structured plan. S1 was as good as it was because A&E had planned it out for years. (Not just in a quick camp.)

Edited May 25, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Selina K]

I think part of why I am feeling frustrated with the show is that this serialized "arc but not show" approach results in very little payoff for people who are interested in watching the development of the characters and relationships over time.  I am all about CS, but they died for each other and all I got was the same I love you I got at the end of S4, except this time no evil flubber. Um, thanks?  I seriously watched a season of angst and turmoil for this couple so they could say I love you while not dying?  Regina has "come so far" according to every A&E interview, but she's still moaning about how she never gets good things and has to live with the guilt of being bad.  Put on your big girl pants and grow up.  Three seasons of that chorus at this point, and at least another half season on the horizon. .  Rumple / Belle just whirl around on a carousel that never changes course, one is up, one is down, but the trajectory never alters.  

Also, there was just no hook in this season finale that left me feeling like I have to, or really even want to, watch in the fall.  If people are really just watching to see what dress the Evil Queen picks this week, I guess they will be happy, but in terms of resolution or outcome of the arc, what is the hook?  I get to watch 2 Reginas? Ok, I guess.  Just telling me the Queen is back doesn't really tell me what I should be worried about.  If they gave me something like, "And this time Snow White and her Savior will pay!" at least I have some tension, sort of.  Right now she is standing in NYC with a guy I thought was dead, so I'm not all that worried about him. I have no idea what she wants or where she is going and why she is after it or if it will even effect anyone's development.  Maybe she wants to start an off Broadway one woman show.  Maybe she wants to go shopping at Barney's.  Right now, I don't know, and not being hugely invested in Regina, I don't care.

[Curio]

It's as if the writers were like, "Hey, everyone loved that quick scene in the Season 3 finale where there were two Hooks in the same room! I have a great idea...let's give the audience an entire freaking season of two Regina's! That's gold, Jerry! Gold!" But that's not at all why the duo-Hook scene was enjoyable. Part of the enjoyment factor was because of how limited the appearance was. If we were beaten over the head with two Hooks for an entire season, the novelty would wear off. Also, with the two Hooks scene, at least the older version of Hook wasn't a complete caricature of the new Hook—they're both fairly fleshed out characters. But with the separate Evil Queen waltzing around in Season 6, it's just going to be non-stop scenery chewing with very little substance because of how cartoonish she is. There's no stakes here.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

 But that's not at all why the duo-Hook scene was enjoyable. Part of the enjoyment factor was because of how limited the appearance was. If we were beaten over the head with two Hooks for an entire season, the novelty would wear off.

A&E lost the meaning to "less is more" after S1...

Quote

But with the separate Evil Queen waltzing around in Season 6, it's just going to be non-stop scenery chewing with very little substance because of how cartoonish she is. There's no stakes here.

The resolution is stupidly predictable, too. Regina will learn the lesson that the Evil Queen is part of her and she'll have to live We Are Both like everyone else. (Not exactly the same, but a similar concept.) The only way EQ can be defeated is by rejoining her. I don't mind some level of predictability, but I can already sense it's going to be done horribly just like before. In S4, the audience wasn't supposed to realize the obvious truth that life is governed by choices, not an Author. Then in S5, we were supposed to be shocked that Rumple wasn't a hero. I don't think the writers want us to realize that EQ and Regina are the same person. They're going to give us a big lightbulb moment and think they're oh-so-clever.

Edited May 25, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

Really, the season 3 cliffhanger was less of a draw into the next season than the season 5 one. Unless you'd been living under a rock for the previous six months, you knew Elsa wasn't a threat, while at least we know that the Evil Queen is dangerous and Hyde is up to no good. I guess the difference is that Frozen was the hot new thing, and there was some interest and excitement in seeing how it would be incorporated into the world of this series. The other things leading into the following season were more character-related -- what would happen now that Emma and Hook had kissed, how was Robin going to react to his wife's return, how Regina was going to act and would she go evil, when would Belle find out that Rumple had duped her with the dagger. Those are the bits that are missing from the current cliffhanger. There's not a lot of "I wonder what happens next" character stuff.

Looking at the season cliffhangers, season one was more a conclusion than a cliffhanger, with just the arrival of magic to suggest the possibility of a threat. The anticipation of season two was more about what would happen now that the curse was broken and everyone knew who they were and what Regina had done to them. Alas, they failed utterly at following up on that, and it crippled the show.

I think season two may have had the best cliffhanger because it involved action and jeopardy. The gang was heading toward Neverland, where Henry was in danger, and then there was character stuff, like all the former enemies being on the ship together and having to work as a team. Season three was more about the "ooh!" of Frozen. Season 4 was an interesting cliffhanger because there were so many story possibilities in Emma having become a Dark One and disappearing. Alas, they barely scratched the surface of the potential there, but at least the cliffhanger had promise.

The problem with the current one is that it doesn't even really properly set things up. We don't know what the Evil Queen wants, specifically. Is she out to get revenge on her good half, finally get revenge on Snow, rule this world? Considering that Regina lost out in the first place, and now to oppose her we also have Emma with magic and Good Regina with magic, it's hard to imagine that the Evil Queen is that much of a threat. They've already attempted to kill her, so it's not even a case of "but we can't hurt her because she's Regina!" We also don't have a good sense of what Hyde wants or what he's going to do. He's just made a vague threat. Meanwhile, there's very little character stuff to anticipate, no real curiosity about what would happen next for them if they didn't have to fight villains.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Really, the season 3 cliffhanger was less of a draw into the next season than the season 5 one. Unless you'd been living under a rock for the previous six months, you knew Elsa wasn't a threat, while at least we know that the Evil Queen is dangerous and Hyde is up to no good. I guess the difference is that Frozen was the hot new thing, and there was some interest and excitement in seeing how it would be incorporated into the world of this series. 

While I didn't think S3's cliffhangers were amazing, they were still better than S5's. Several of the characters were moving into new territory. It wasn't about, "Oh snap! Big Bad is coming and we're all in danger!" Emma and Hook finally became an official relationship, Rumpbelle got married, Zarian came in to test Regina and her relationship with Robin, and Emma had just accepted her heritage. There was just more to work with. In S5, Captain Swan isn't really going to the next level, Rumpbelle is undergoing more of the same drama, and Regina is dealing with the same demons she always has. All S5 really did was introduce "new" characters.

If EQ, Belle's fate, and random literary identities are all S6 has to offer, I can contain my hype for a while.

Quote

The problem with the current one is that it doesn't even really properly set things up.

That was my issue too. They didn't give us anything to speculate off of. I was initially intrigued by wherever Rumple was going, but there's no bearing of whatever that is. How can I be excited about that? For all we know he's just heading back to EF to get a TLK in a Bottle potion from his forgotten rival, Madame Mim. And while the literary characters playing out their stories might be fun, that's just what we've already seen, just from another genre(s).

Edited May 26, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[RadioGirl27]

Quote

The problem with the current one is that it doesn't even really properly set things up.

Yeah. The finale failed both as closure for season 5 and as an opener for season 6. I can care less about Regina and the EQ, but as a Hook and a CS fan I feel cheated and that I don't have anything to look forward. 

[YaddaYadda]

7 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

As much as I hated this finale, I still loved team Wicked Hero going through Steampunk World. I really enjoy the concept of a variety of different characters going on a mission and having to use everyone's different talents to complete it. While this trip needed a bit more character flavor from the mains and regulars, I'd like to see other adventures in the future. It was like getting a sample of what made 3A so great. Excursions for the usual pairings, like with Emma/Regina, pale in comparison.

I think it would be really neat if they just randomly teamed the characters up.

Zelena and Emma are not fans of each other. The first thing Emma told Zelena in 5x21 when she came with the pages from the book was that she wasn't there to hurt her. It may not seem like it, but a lot of shit has gone down between Emma and Zelena. I doubt Emma will ever forgive judging by how she was ready to kill Zelena as the Dark One, and I doubt Zelena will ever cross that bridge.

A pairing between David and Regina could be interesting. Outside of Hook, David is the other person who doesn't really coddle Regina. When David threw at Regina how she trampled over villages, and killed people, and ruined lives, that was kind of fun.

Snow and Hook. Maybe they'll end up having a conversation. Those are two characters that have things in common. Snow is very strong willed, I wonder if she'd talk to Hook the way she talks to David like his opinion doesn't even matter, and if there would be a push back on Hook's end.

[Camera One]

How many times have they gone to another world and unwittingly brought a problem villain back with them?  In 2A, they led Cora and Hook to Storybrooke.  In 3A, Peter Pan hitched a ride to Storybrooke.  In 3B, Zelena came along to Storybrooke.  At the end of 3B, Elsa along with Zarian was brought to Storybrooke.  In 5A, they brought Arthur along to Storybrooke.  In 5B, they brought Hades to Storybrooke.  At the end of 5B, they brought Mr. Hyde to Storybrooke.  

Practically every visit to the Land Without Magic brings some problem person to Storybrooke as well... Tamara in 2B and the Queens of Darkness and Lily in 4B.  

Every "victory" is twinged with depressing problems.  You're always waiting for the other shoe to drop.  I'm starting to feel like The Savior.

They might as well as create an Ad Lib book for writing for this show.

Edited May 27, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

I'm a bit late to the party, but as far as favorite/least favorite episodes of S5 go... I do agree that Birth is the best written episode. The sense of urgency and utilization of so many characters is what makes it so gripping. It covers so much ground but with elegance. All that being said, it didn't pull me in quite as much as Sisters because it didn't focus on what I was more interested in. While Sisters was hokey (best word for it, really), the conclusion was satisfying. It did justice for Cora's relationship with her daughters. It was milestone. For a send-off of one of the more iconic guest stars, it did its job well. For those reasons I consider it my favorite episode of S5.

For least favorite, I'm giving that one over to the finale. Yeah, I know - that's pretty sad considering its competition. Her Handsome Hero. Bear and the Bow. But none of the other episodes offended me as a fan as much as 5x22/23 did. I really can't hate The Bear King because I don't think it's terrible for a standalone. Putting it right after Birth was the real sin. 

S5 is still lightyears better than S4, but S3 and S1 are superior. (It's hard for me to gauge S2.)

Edited May 27, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Mathius]

Quote

S5 is still lightyears better than S4, but S3 and S1 are superior. (It's hard for me to gauge S2.)

Not for me, despite all its problems that increased as it went along S2 is still better than S4 and S5.

[Curio]

13 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

For least favorite, I'm giving that one over to the finale. Yeah, I know - that's pretty sad considering its competition. Her Handsome Hero. Bear and the Bow. But none of the other episodes offended me as a fan as much as 5x22/23 did.

The Season 5 finale might tie Breaking Glass for least favorite episode in the entire series. It was that bad for me.

What's interesting about the favorite/least favorite poll is that if you get rid of the two Merida-centric episodes, 5A would have been fairly strong. Nearly everyone agreed that the worst episodes of 5A were those two specifically, but the hate is spread around a lot more for the episodes in 5B. I know the poll isn't terribly scientific, but we can kind of gather that 5A would have been the superior arc between the two if it didn't have the Merida stuff. 

Edited May 27, 2016 by Curio

[KingOfHearts]

11 minutes ago, Mathius said:

Not for me, despite all its problems that increased as it went along S2 is still better than S4 and S5.

S2 is a mixed bag. S4 and S5 average out in quality more than it does. I enjoy 2A and I would put it above S4/S5, but 2B has some major elements that are either better, equal, or worse. While all arcs have good and bad episodes, 2B's are either decent or offensively horrible. While you have The Miller's Daughter or Lacey, there's also Selfless, Brave and True or The Cricket Game. There's a steeper downfall in the show's overall quality in that short span of episodes than really any other stretch to date. Arcs are better to compare than whole seasons, really.

Quote

The Season 5 finale might tie Breaking Glass for least favorite episode in the entire series. It was that bad for me.

I tie it with Cricket Game. I still hate that episode with a burning passion. I can't even watch it.

Edited May 27, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

There's a lot I like about season 2A, and I love a lot about the season 2 finale (well, aside from Regina and her failsafe and being called a hero because she stopped her plan to kill everyone because she got caught in it), but I think most of the show's current problems can be traced back to season two. That's where the lack of consequences and lack of normal human reaction to anything kicked in, and it's had a snowball effect since then. They really bungled the aftermath of the curse. The curse really is a huge deal. All of these people, most of whom probably had never even had anything to do with either Regina or Snow other than at a distance, were ripped out of their lives, ripped away from their homes, and in some cases even ripped away from their families (given the number of "missing" posters right after the curse). They were stripped of their identities and memories and turned into people who mostly seem to have been the polar opposite of their real selves or the worst aspect of their real selves. Some of them were even physically transformed into different kinds of beings. Then they spent 28 years of low-level misery, living unhappy, unsatisfying lives that went by in a blur of sameness. Then the curse broke and they got their real memories and identities back, but now they're stuck with the memories of what they did when they weren't themselves, when they were people they probably wouldn't want much to do with, and they're stuck in another world, away from their homes. It may be a world with electricity, indoor plumbing, and antibiotics, but they didn't get to choose to be there. This isn't something that can be brushed aside with one little mob at Regina's house and then the "we are both" speech.

These people should be seriously pissed at Regina. They may not be able to do much to her because she's so overpowered with magic, but if she's playing nice, she can't exactly go all fireball on them. They should have immediately demanded an election for mayor, or at least demanded that Snow, their rightful queen, be in charge. There should have been more to re-establishing their society and figuring out how that was going to work. Maybe a few people should have chosen to cross the town line and lose their real memories. Some people should have rejected everything about their curse identities and gone back to trying to have their Enchanted Forest lives and identities. As it is, it's like they dealt with this huge upheaval with a shrug.

Then there's the Regina whitewashing and victim complex, Belle hardly blinking at seeing just how awful Rumple can be and learning that he murdered his first wife, the start of all the "heroes and villains" nonsense that erased any shades of gray they may have shown before, Snow and Emma being far too forgiving of Regina after seeing the devastation the curse caused. Almost every problem they have with the show now wouldn't be a problem if things had been handled better in season two. It's not the low point of the show, necessarily, but it is the root of all the low points that have come afterward.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

These people should be seriously pissed at Regina. They may not be able to do much to her because she's so overpowered with magic, but if she's playing nice, she can't exactly go all fireball on them. 

It shocks me that there was never a murder plot in S2 by the angry citizens to kill Regina. Her life was threatened multiple times in S1 and then in 2x01, but after that all anyone did was make remarks about her lasagna. Wouldn't at least one of them ignore Snow/Emma's plea and go after her while she didn't have magic? All they needed to do was sneak into her house and get her while she's asleep. Or better yet, torch the place down.

Also, you couldn't tell me Whale was the only person who desperately wanted to get back to his land.

[Camera One]

Even now.  Why wouldn't people want Snow as the Mayor.  But apparently, no one cares why Snow even quit being Mayor.  Snow has never actually mentioned it.  They're not even trying to create a whole person, much less a whole universe with actual citizens in an actual community.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

5 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Even now.  Why wouldn't people want Snow as the Mayor.  But apparently, no one cares why Snow even quit being Mayor.  Snow has never actually mentioned it.  They're not even trying to create a whole person, much less a whole universe with actual citizens in an actual community.

Well, it's not like the office has held any power since the curse broke...

I'm not sure how a lawless town stays so pleasant.

Quote

Except when she apparently directs prisoner escape protocol and electrical grid outages.  But when Regina's in charge, she doesn't actually have to do anything.

When Regina's in charge, there's plenty of time to cry about losing boyfriends and pop root beers with your best frenemy.

Edited May 28, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Except when she apparently directs prisoner escape protocol and electrical grid outages.  But when Regina's in charge, she doesn't actually have to do anything.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Camera One

[andromeda331]

There really should have been so much more of a fall out after the curse was broken. They missed so many opportunities in Season Two. Regina was asked to resign, that was a perfect chance to see what kind of government they could have. Do they give it back to Snow since it was her kingdom? What about the other kingdoms that were there it wasn't just Snow White's that Regina cursed. Or maybe the peasants were tired of being ruled over and wanted to elect someone from their own group. Maybe that could have led to them having elections.  They could have showed more anger towards Regina. Have people try to kill her, throwing rocks through her window, etc. Not only did she deserve it, it could have fueled her joining her mother when Cora strolled into town. Show people wanting to go home. They had Whale, and later the Dwarfs. Show them trying to figure out how to get home and others trying to get back to their families.  Snow and Charming wanted to go back home but Emma didn't because to her it wasn't her home. Were there any other people who didn't want to go back? What about Rumple? He spent centuries manipulating everyone and everything to find his son only to learn after the curse is broken he can't go find him? All he does is break glass with his cane the next thing we see he's got a potion ready. Why aren't people storming his shop to take their things back? There was so much they could have done with Snow, Charming and Emma. Snow and Charming have been waiting 28 years to finally be with their daughter only to find her all grown up and had a rough life. And they too should have been angry at Regina. No fall out.for what she did to them either.

[daxx]

All the devastation she has caused is rarely even mentioned. Hook did in New York City Serenade making a comment about her laying waste to everything, but has it even been mentioned what she did to the enchanted forest since?

[Camera One]

During the course of 5B, I was glad they used Hades sparingly, and it's not that I wanted much more of him, but I do feel the half-season arc felt a little incomplete without an episode telling Hades' backstory with Zeus, how he came to the Underworld, the creation of the rivers, etc.  Because of that, Hades felt very insubstantial. If anything, he was just a prop for Zelena.

None of the 5B episodes explored the Greek God pantheon, with the exception of the Hercules episode, which mostly took place in the Enchanted Forest.  If the half-season theme was Greek mythology, one would expect more than one episode delving into that "world".

[Mathius]

That didn't bother me at all.  Villain backstories are overdone and routinely criticized on this show, so Hades getting a flashback episode wouldn't have gone over well since it'd be taking time away from the main characters and their own quest.  Similarly, the theme of the half-season WASN'T Greek mythology, that was just used as a springboard for the actual theme of dead people, unfinished business and closure. And again, we'd only see complaints ("A&E are distracted by their shiny new toys!") if they DID delve into that "world" for a longer time.

It's similar to 3A, that arc was more about fixing the reasons behind complaints from 2B and trying to right the ship by focusing on the core cast rather than explore the history of Neverland and the Peter Pan characters. Yet there were (and still are) many complaints made about that too.

There are valid complaints to have against the writers, but stuff like this feels like nitpicking.  "You can't please everyone", indeed.

Edited May 29, 2016 by Mathius

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

During the course of 5B, I was glad they used Hades sparingly, and it's not that I wanted much more of him, but I do feel the half-season arc felt a little incomplete without an episode telling Hades' backstory with Zeus, how he came to the Underworld, the creation of the rivers, etc.  Because of that, Hades felt very insubstantial. If anything, he was just a prop for Zelena.

I wasn't itching to hear Hades' sob story, but I wanted more Greek mythology involvement. I realize A&E would have botched it to hell, but there was so much pretentious setup. The Underworld CGI areas, the ambrosia tree, Hercules, etc. 5B wasn't the first time the show has touched on Greek elements, either. We've seen Medusa and Poseidon. Because it touches on those things but doesn't flesh anything out, it feels half-assed. Neverland had the same problem.

Edited May 29, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Villain backstories are overdone and routinely criticized on this show, so Hades getting a flashback episode wouldn't have gone over well since it'd be taking time away from the main characters and their own quest.

Just because it's "routinely criticized" didn't stop them from doing a backstory for Arthur, the Snow Queen, Cruella, Ursula and Maleficent.  It's not like Merida and "Ruby Slippers" didn't take time away from the main characters.  And Hades' story did not have to be a sob story.  It was a choice not to do it, and I'm happy for those who didn't want to see more Greek myth, but when you bill a half-season to be exploring a certain world, you can't blame certain viewers for wanting to see an exploration of it, or dismiss it as "nitpicking".

[YaddaYadda]

10 minutes ago, Camera One said:

 

Just because it's "routinely criticized" didn't stop them from doing a backstory for Arthur, the Snow Queen, Cruella, Ursula and Maleficent.  It's not like Merida and "Ruby Slippers" didn't take time away from the main characters.  And Hades' story did not have to be a sob story.  It was a choice not to do it, and I'm happy for those who didn't want to see more Greek myth, but when you bill a half-season to be exploring a certain world, you can't blame certain viewers for wanting to see an exploration of it, or dismiss it as "nitpicking".

The thing is, with Hades, they started planting those little seeds in 5x15. Hades can't deal with light magic, Hades can't harm people above, Hades can't kidnap anyone to the Underworld, Zeus stopped Hades' heart as a sure way to stop him for whatever stuff he was up to. The hints that he kidnapped live people from above and brought them to the UW were there, the hints that he killed people in order to beef up his "kingdom" were there. Zeus called him wayward which I think was him putting it nicely. Why didn't Zeus just end Hades? He likely had the power to do that. Instead, he made sure he stayed in the Underworld. 

It was disappointing that nothing came from this.

I think Zeus' presence in Last Rights where he gives Hook his life back would have been a lot more meaningful. I think Zelena dispatching Hades the way she did would have been a lot more significant.

Instead, we got an episode where he falls in love with Zelena after riding a bike with her.

I've really been questioning some of the choices the writers are making. They seem to be doing everything for the sake of whatever the big twist is as opposed to writing in an organic way that makes the story stick together.

I'm sort of questioning whether I'll be watching season 6 with the same level of commitment I did the last 5 seasons. I almost gave up during 4B. 

The writers figured out a way to squander the potential this show has. It's kind of sad.

[Shanna Marie]

I don't care so much about the motivation behind Hades or seeing his poor, misunderstood villain backstory, but I felt like we were missing huge chunks of plot. He was so random. Since we didn't get a flashback of what went on between him and Zeus, we only have what he told Zelena, and given how big a liar he was, we have no idea how accurate that was or what he left out when he told her the story. He was trying to play her at the time, so it's a good bet it wasn't the whole truth, if any of it was true. We know that there was something wrong with the Underworld, with people being held there when they shouldn't have been, but we aren't entirely sure why. We also know that he wanted to get more souls in the Underworld but wasn't allowed to take them directly. Did he just want more people to rule over, or was there some other benefit to having more people in his realm? Did that give him power? We never did get a reason why he was torturing Hook upon his arrival, even before the others got there and started handing out hope. Then we never learned what his specific goal was. It sounded like it was just a Pinky and the Brain-esque generic "take over the world" plot. Was he hoping to rule our world to put himself on a par with Zeus? Was he trying to get more power to confront Zeus? Why didn't Zeus just deal with him?

Although I do like it when they focus on the regular characters rather than the guest stars (villain or otherwise), I also like it when the arc villain isn't just a prop for the regulars' personal stories. Hades wasn't an actual antagonist. He was a plot device to hold Hook in the Underworld until the end of the season and to help redeem Zelena and reunite her with Regina. He didn't really exist as his own person with his own agenda. That's where even one flashback of his confrontation with Zeus and the specifics of whatever was done to him that made him have to scheme to find loopholes would have helped tremendously.

[KingOfHearts]

Hades pretty much held the "Big Bad" position. He wasn't an actual character. He drove conflict for the heroes, and that was basically it. While he served that purpose well, I'll never really see him as a full person. That makes him weak as an antagonist.

Edited May 30, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

4 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I felt like we were missing huge chunks of plot. He was so random.

Exactly.  Why didn't he just push Hook into the river of lost souls or turn him into water?   Why were "his eyes and ears are everywhere" only half the time?   Why did he wait so long to punish Cora, if he was doing it for Zelena?  Why was he so intent on Regina leaving in the 5B premiere?  What was the point of the deal he made with Belle?  Why didn't he punish Rumple or take steps to prevent him from leaving the Underworld?  

[andromeda331]

13 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

The writers figured out a way to squander the potential this show has. It's kind of sad.

That really is the saddest part. Because the show really did have so much potential. There was so much the writers could have done but chose not to.

[Camera One]

I'm glad they spent as long in the Underworld as they did.  I vaguely remember reading a teaser interview before 5B when A&E were asked if they would be in the Underworld for the whole arc and they said no?  But they did end up doing so.  I must say it was a pretty ingenious way of still having "Storybrooke" around despite being in the Underworld.  They do have a lot of good ideas.  But as said by many above, it's the potential they never reach, in part due to their biases.

Edited May 30, 2016 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

If you try to parse Hades' story, it makes no sense (I really need that as a keyboard macro for this show). Going chronologically from what we saw, back in Killian and Liam's day he was already collecting souls, and it would seem that by that time he already wasn't letting anyone move on (shouldn't the Underworld have been a lot more populated, or is it relatively rare for people to die with unfinished business that sends them to the Underworld?). Skip ahead a hundred years or so and he stumbles into Zelena (or was he looking for her? I don't recall why he was in Oz) and maybe thinks he's found true love that can restart his heart. Or maybe thinks he's found a patsy. Since we never got an objective look at his plans and activities, we can only go by what he said. Then he apparently turns the Underworld into a version of Storybrooke so Zelena can have Storybrooke even though she didn't get to cast the curse (never mind that she didn't even know the curse would create Storybrooke. She only wanted to be the one to cast the curse because she wanted to be the one who was chosen and didn't want her sister to have anything). We don't know if any of the Underworld residents noticed this change, and we don't get to see them reacting to suddenly living in modern America even though most of them would have been entirely unfamiliar with this kind of world.

But even though Hades is supposedly (maybe?) madly in love with Zelena, he makes Cora, the mother who abandoned Zelena, the mayor of Underbrooke. There's no sign that he made any further attempts at contact with Zelena after the bike ride, and if he had been somehow stopped entirely from being able to even visit the world of the living somewhere along the way, he had all the Dark Ones in the Underworld all that time and had Rumple there temporarily between 3A and 3B but didn't find a way to coerce any of them into opening a portal, nor did he scheme his way into the Dark Ones' portal that Nimue/Hook opened. When he got Rumple again and had leverage, he got Rumple to open a portal to take Zelena's baby, and was surprised to also get Zelena herself. So was he really just taking the baby so he could give it back to her and win her love, or was he trying to cast the time travel spell?

Meanwhile, he's torturing Hook for Reasons. Then when the Storybrooke gang gets in the Underworld, he first wants them all gone. Then he tries to force them to stay (so they can stir up more hope?). He nearly dumps Hook in the River of Souls, but once he's rescued he doesn't seem to care about Hook at all and makes no further attempts to hurt or kill him.

So, basically, Hades just did whatever random villain action was needed for the plot that week without it fitting into any kind of overall plan. I suppose it's a nice change from the heroes running around randomly reacting to the villains' plan, but we ended up with a weird loop of the heroes running around reacting to the villain's actions while the villain was running around reacting to the heroes' actions, and none of them had a coherent plan.

[justmythoughts]

I was rewatching 3x20. Kansas. The whole Regina defeats Zelena with light magic, gives that nice speech of heroes dont kill nor seek revenge, evil is made and so is good, blah...

I think A&E should rewatch the series as well. The jekyll juice goes against all of that. If evil and good are choices, unless you are seriously scientifically or technologically changed as Jekyll and Hyde (noooot Regina's case), you should not be able to separate evil and good in one person.

[TheGreenKnight]

I agree that there was a lot about Hades that was unfortunately left unexplained. All I could really take away from the storyline was that Hades was just obsessed with power so he could do whatever he wanted to anyone he wanted. (A shade different from Cora, who wanted power to pull herself up from nothing.) And that's really going by his dialogue to Zelena about wanting to "rule" Storybrooke once they got there. He just likes to make people's lives torture for kicks. I guess gods could often be like that in myth. I only found it odd because most of the arc seemed to relate his relationship with Zeus to Zelena's original plan to take everything away from Regina so I assumed that once he left the Underworld, he would try to fight Zeus somehow or Zeus would come find him in Storybrooke (or Zeus threatens Emma and co. to take care of it since it was their fault he got out or there would be consequences).

I almost wonder if many fans speculating were right and they were going to have Hades turn out to only be misleading Zelena to use her baby for the spell, but then Zades was popular and they went in a different direction. Of course, the direction they went ended that relationship anyway, so who knows. I think it might've been better if everything had happened the same except that once they got to Storybrooke, Hades tried to talk Zelena into using the baby to get both of them the lives they wanted with the spell, saying they could have a baby that was his and hers instead of Robin's in this alternate universe/timeline they would create, and the show used that as the turning point where she kills him. Or leave everything the same except additional info in the pages Hook finds about Hades planning to use Zelena's daughter for the spell to create a life where he and Zelena are together while Regina and Zeus are erased, which Emma reveals to Zelena and this is the argument they have when she teleports in after Robin's death.

Edited May 31, 2016 by TheGreenKnight

[YaddaYadda]

10 hours ago, TheGreenKnight said:

I almost wonder if many fans speculating were right and they were going to have Hades turn out to only be misleading Zelena to use her baby for the spell, but then Zades was popular and they went in a different direction. 

I doubt it just because the following episodes were already written and filmed.

Episode 5x16 was filmed right after the Holidays, and aired April 3rd, if I'm not mistaken. By then, they were already filming either 5x21, or the finale. If Hades had been a long term character, then I'd probably say that was a possibility.

Regardless though, even if Hades' intentions were to never harm Zelena's kid, he still mislead her, and lied to her.

Edited May 31, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[Shanna Marie]

They really got into the recycling this season. The more I think about it, the more parallels to past plots I keep finding. Just off the top of my head:

• A mother-type figure villain has erased memories from her "family" and redeems herself by restoring the memories (from 4A with Ingrid, Elsa and Emma, now with Cora, Regina and Zelena)
• Someone is right about something, but shamed for it, and even when events prove this person right, the characters don't seem to acknowledge it, and this person being disregarded leads to bad consequences (3A -- Emma has figured out that something's wrong with Henry but is told that she's just jealous because Henry wants to stay with Regina. As a result, Pan in Henry's body gets the chance to carry out his scheme to remake Storybrooke into Neverland with the curse. Now, Robin's objections to trusting Zelena and Hades are overruled, and it turns out that Hades was playing them all along. As a result, they're all nearly trapped in the Underworld, and he gets killed)
• Henry blames magic for all their problems and sets out to try to destroy magic (2B and the 5 finale)
• Some of the characters may end up trapped in another world because their portal is being shut down (kind of what was happening in 2A when Rumple and Regina were shutting off the well. In the 5 finale, it's because magic has been destroyed in our world)
• Oh wait, magic was here all along! (The season 3 finale -- Emma believed her powers were gone, but by believing in herself and thinking about her family, she discovers that they're there, just in time to save herself and Hook. 5 finale, there really was magic in the World Without Magic, you just have to make people believe in it)
• Rumple secretly doublecrosses everyone else (season 1, he brings back magic to give himself power, 3B, he murders Zelena in her cell and erases the video, 4A the hat plot plus he collects the Queens of Darkness to sneak him back into town where his dark heart puts everyone in danger, 5A he hijacks Hook's sacrifice to get the Dark One power again, 5B he sneaks through the fountain portal to deal with Hyde )
• Regina and Emma go on a road trip and end up at Neal's apartment (4B and the 5 finale)
• Regina and Emma save the day by combining their power (2B they destroy the failsafe, now they break the Blind Witch's spell holding them in the Underworld library)
• Emma makes an emotional milestone with Hook in the finale (3 she kisses him for real for the first time, 4 she tells him she loves him for the first time, 5 she tells him she loves him when no one's on the verge of death)
• In a finale, characters get sucked through a portal into another world and have to find their way back (3 -- Emma and Hook time travel to the Enchanted Forest, 5 -- Hook, Zelena, and the Charmings get sucked through a portal into the Land of Untold Stories)

I'm sure there are others I'm missing.

[Camera One]

Next season, on "Once Upon a Time".  The Land of Untold Stories.  From the Show with Retold Stories.  

Quote

Emma makes an emotional milestone with Hook in the finale (4 she tells him she loves him for the first time, 5 she tells him she loves him when no one's on the verge of death)

I'm really excited for the Season 6 finale when she tells him she loves him while standing on one leg and wearing an orange cone as a hat.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Next season, on "Once Upon a Time".  The Land of Untold Stories.  From the Show with Retold Stories.  

It is weird that the Land of Untold Stories is full of people who've had their stories told in books already.

 

(Is it going to be Henry's job to write their stories?)

Edited June 1, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

We can boil down the recent seasons into two types of arcs:

1. The #Save____ Arc

Whereby the Heroes go to another land to save someone from a villain.  But then the Heroes can't leave.  Until coincidence happens and they leave, but they bring something/someone evil with them to Storybrooke.  

2. The Unwanted Visitors Arc

Whereby unwanted "villains" enter Storybrooke, but the Heroes have no idea what their plan is for a long time.7

--------------------------------------------------------------

Going through the recent arcs:

3A: The first type

3B: The second type... it took forever for us to find out what Zelena actually wanted

3B Finale: The first type in condensed version

4A: The second type... what's the Snow Queen's deal?  Cue a few cryptic conversations with Rumple in the woods.

4B: The second type... took the "heroes" awhile to find out what Rumple and the Queens wanted, to turn Emma dark or whatever.

5A: Both!  The first type in flashbacks (#SaveEmma in Camelot) and The second type in present-day (What's the deal with Dark Swan?  Who the hell knows...)

5B: The first type

Edited June 3, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

I was going to write a post about the different kinds of cliffhangers, but it would have been too redundant to Camera One's post. Other than what he has already talked about, the other kind of cliffhanger is the Alleged Game Changer, in which a change in condition is supposed to dramatically affect the main characters. I say "alleged" because it's only in S1 do the changes have long-term consequences. In the cases of 3A and 4B, the effects are totally reversed. The Missing Year never happened and Rumple, Emma, and Hook are in the same states they were in 4B. (Albeit Rumple has more power now.) 

6A is definitely going to be an Unwanted Visitors Arc. Like with the Queens of Darkness, the writers are attempting to pack in as many new characters as possible. In their minds, overstuffing sweetens the deal. Not only will you get literary characters, but they'll throw in the Evil Queen as well!

Edited June 3, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Faemonic]

On 5/26/2016 at 3:44 AM, Curio said:

If we were beaten over the head with two Hooks for an entire season, the novelty would wear off. 

By the end of the Frozen arc, I decided to only tune in for the Hook episodes because I thought the good writing for his character was contagious and the flaws easy to shelve ("trying to get me drunk...usually my tactic" Whoever scripted that line, I am frowning at you! Deeply! Now let me watch Hook wallop Hook with his right hook,) Then I watched Swan Song and was sort of thinking, hrmm, not a magic good writing charm after all...

 

From what I gather, the TV series Charmed had a similar problem. Two of the actresses became producers of the show, coincidentally their characters' storylines took a turn for the Mary Sue. This was good for the likability of Paige Matthews (played by Rose McGowan, our Young Cora) because that character came to the fore when the story called for it rather than for office politics reasons.

 

I guess that less is more? But I'd say it's also a matter of working well with what's got to work with, what's kept central or balanced, and, haha...no. (Like come on, Phoebe had all that potential angst being the rebel runaway returning to fulfill this onerous family legacy, and the storyline devolved to being annoyed that saving the world got in the way of her job as the best advice columnist in the world ever with book deals and talk shows.)

[Shanna Marie]

In fairness, I'm having a hard time thinking of other things the structure of this show would allow for types of arc. Going somewhere else or a villain coming to town are what they're stuck with, unless they want to try to do "the villain was here all along," which the Frozen arc kind of was. That strained credibility, since we'd never seen her before. I guess they could have a previously introduced secondary character get some magical object or otherwise become a threat. Warlord Butcher Bo Peep for 6B villain! (Seriously, she had her magical staff, why isn't she trying to take over when most of the town's power brokers are off realm jumping?) Maybe they could go for a man vs. nature kind of plot, where there's some kind of struggle to survive (the spell that maintains Storybrooke is about to die out, unless they can find the magical object or spell to revive it) without an actual villain. Rumple is likely to be the final arc's Big Bad, so in that one we probably won't have either realm jumping or an imported villain, unless they go with more kitchen sink writing and throw in a bunch of other villains that we then barely see.

[Curio]

The story can really open up if the writers just admit to themselves that realm-hopping is as easy as pie. We could have old characters pop in and ask our team of heroes to help them with a problem overseas...or...overrealms? Elsa could have a quick cameo where she calls Emma via mirror chat and begs her to investigate a mysterious force taking over a bordering kingdom. That would require the heroes of Storybrooke to actually be proactive instead of reactive, and everyone magical and non-magical could pitch in and help solve the mystery. Imagine a season where the gang gets to realm hop to Agrabah, Arendelle, Misthaven, Black & White world, Steampunk world, and Wonderland as they follow clues that lead them to the Big Bad. Sure, we get to see those worlds in flashbacks occasionally already, but it's a lot more exciting when the current characters experience those places in the present timeline. When you have so many magical worlds to realm hop to, utilize them! There's so much opportunity there for a fun action adventure/romance/mystery plot to happen.

Edited June 3, 2016 by Curio

[Camera One]

And if they stay in Storybrooke, they could deal with problems that should be occurring in the town, such as citizens who might want to go back to the Enchanted Forest, minor villains/criminals causing a ruckus or committing petty crimes around town, characters wanting a career change, etc.  I mean, they could have done a good storyline with Snow learning to be a good mayor and balancing motherhood in 4A/4B, but apparently that was a 2-episode thing which was quickly eliminated and we got eggbaby instead.

[YaddaYadda]

If they stay in Storybrooke, they can have a life. You know where I'm not wondering when these people find the time to shower. Although we did have that lazy 5x15 thing where she magically cleans up and dresses Hook.

[Shanna Marie]

Maybe the arc structure is part of the problem. They seem to have decided that there has to be one big story arc with a primary plot line and villain, rather than maybe more mini-arc kinds of things where they deal with the kind of day-to-day life issues that you'll only find in a magical town populated with fairy tale characters. Or maybe they could do those kinds of episodes in the middle of the arc instead of spinning their wheels. The way things are structured, there's the big intro where they learn about the villain and realize the threat and start to do something about it, then several episodes when they don't do much of anything while the villain starts to do his/her thing. Then someone will declare "It's time to do something about it" (or something to that effect), and everything happens in the last 2-3 episodes. So maybe while the villain is putting pieces in place, Emma might deal with having to arrest Goldilocks for home invasion or get tired of getting called out to the home of the Boy Who Cried Wolf. Or it could be kind of like with Rumple in 4A, but without the Ingrid part, where for most of the arc, the audience knows there's a villain and what he/she is up to, so there's suspense building, but the villain is actually smart enough not to flounce around town announcing his/her presence and plans, so the characters don't know about it. We see the villain putting things into motion, but the characters are having daily life. Emma and David (and maybe Hook, since he seems to be an unofficial deputy) could investigate crimes. Magical artifacts might run amok, requiring Emma and Regina to do something about them. Snow might have to mediate disputes (she might not be mayor, but the people from her kingdom might look to her for some kind of authority). We could get glimpses of family dinners and movie nights. And then in the course of these things, they might notice clues of what the villain is doing and start focusing more on that. If they're not going to do anything truly constructive against the villain until the last few episodes of the arc, anyway, they may as well be doing something else.

[Camera One]

That is what I expected and wanted the show to be back when we were looking forward to Season 2.  I think the problem is not with the arc structure per se, but simply the Writers have no interest or desire to show these day-to-day life issues AND the Writers' choice to plan for big "twists" which result in horrible pacing.  Many shows have arcs, where there is a bigger threat.  But these shows still manage to show the characters living their day to day lives while solving smaller problems.  Not to mention they pace developments, so the protagonists gradually but steadily gain more information and ammunition against the bigger threat. 

Look at 5B in the Underworld.  There was the bigger threat from Hades, but the Writers almost discounted it by making it seem like the heroes were comfortable walking around by themselves, going grocery shopping and having breakfast and coffee at a child murderer's diner.  Then they suddenly reveal that Aunt Em also had a restaurant, so why weren't our heroes going there instead?   There was this big pronouncement that they would help the ordinary folk get over their unfinished business, and the protagonists barely said 5 words to any of the ordinary folk.  The smaller moments and goals were already there, right in the situation the Writers created, but they are only interested in the big guns like having Cora enter the light.

Edited June 4, 2016 by Camera One