KingOfHearts July 20, 2014 Share July 20, 2014 (edited) Well, since Rumple basically orchestrated it all in the first timeline, he could do it again. Not to mention he also helped them considerably with the glamour spell, party invitation, telling them where Charming would be, making a forget potion for himself, replacing the peasant clothes and using the crystal ball to show where Snow was. He could have fixed it himself, but he didn't because he was too busy with finding a solution. Rumple seemed pretty entertained to see two dumb time travelers running around. Edited July 20, 2014 by KingOfHearts Link to comment
Camera One July 20, 2014 Share July 20, 2014 (edited) They gave Glinda the Blue treatment and made her a carbon copy of the bland fairy herself. Couldn't she have some kind of off-the-wall character that would make her remotely close to memorable? Nope. She got dumbed down enough to give Zelena a pendant that made her elite. She's another plot device. Why couldn't Zelena have a relationship with the other witches? Perhaps the Wicked Witch of the East could have been the protector who joined forces with Zelena, and then Zelena could have casted the dark curse with her heart. But instead, Oz basically had its shining light in one-and-a-half episodes, and it was gone. It's far more popular than Neverland, which got about a 10 episodes for spotlight. As a major Oz fan, I really don't get it. I liked the idea of Zelena, and sometimes I enjoyed her scenery chewing, but her story was her major downfall. "Kansas" was a big dud for so many reasons. I suppose that episode was supposed to be clever, since they did work in Dorothy throwing water on Zelena, and also Dorothy eventually going to the Wizard of Oz to get home. How many times can they play the same riff of a bad guy getting the "chance" to be good? Glinda acted more like Tinkerbelle than Blue, since she believed in her goodness, and Blue would probably bring out the garlic and the cross immediately knowing she's Cora's other daughter. Actually, Glinda was way dumber than Tinkerbelle, since she gave Zelena that pendant which maximized her power even though she hardly proven herself and Zelena was clearly unstable. As I mentioned in the other thread, there is no way Glinda the GOOD would compliment Zelena turning the Wizard into a Monkey as if it were okay to turn someone into a slave to "teach them a lesson". And the other two Witches of the Round table were even dumber than Glinda, if that was even possible. Shouldn't they get to know Zelena before revealing the legacy to her? Didn't the three Witches discuss how they would approach the Zelena issue beforehand? There was no world-building to Oz outside of the brief events we saw in this episode... what powers do these Witches have? What do they do? Why do they let the Wizard rule Emerald City? It seems like Glinda actually believes he had power, which makes her even more stupid. And that "Book of Records"... it didn't say Glinda would end up banished? Unfortunately, they chose a Dorothy who was very unmemorable and really weak looking and acting. LOL at how people speculated Dorothy was Henry with a wig before that episode. Now that would have an interesting twist. In some ways, I think Oz would have been a more "fun" place to visit and to explore than Neverland of the Potted Palm Trees. The only "landmark" visited was Skull Island which was totally lame. Edited July 20, 2014 by Camera One 2 Link to comment
KingOfHearts July 20, 2014 Share July 20, 2014 (edited) Oz had a great setup. It was implied that in Oz, things magic normally couldn't do could be done, and the impossible was made possible. For instance, the power of the four witches together was able to break the laws of magic. The Wizard had Silver Slippers that could take you anywhere - something that Rumple spent several lifetimes looking for. There were cyclones that pulled people from other realms, even from lands without magic. The witches had pendants that let them be some of the most powerful magic wielders ever. All these attributes of wonder make Oz look whimsically magical compared to even EF. What I also loved about Oz's setup was that it was a land that not many knew about - like a mysterious world all on its own. Not even the Enchanted Forest citizens, minus Regina and Belle, even knew it existed. The idea that there are secret realms few know about intrigues me substantially. Regina said in New York City Serenade she knew Oz existed. It was alluded she had dealt with Ozians and the Wicked Witch before, but since that didn't seem to be the case, I'm not sure why "the bookworm's right, it's quite real" and "I know exactly who we're dealing with - the Wicked Witch" were thrown in there. Oz had a lot of amazing worldbuilding potential, and I had a lot of ideas for how it could have worked prior to 3B premiering, but it really got the short end of the stick. It certainly had a lot more to go off of than Arendelle. On a side note, the Emerald City was my favorite CGI scene of the show. Edited July 20, 2014 by KingOfHearts 2 Link to comment
Camera One July 20, 2014 Share July 20, 2014 It certainly had a lot more to go off of than Arendelle. Oh totally. When Adam or Eddy said, "I'd be disappointed if we don't visit Arendelle", I was thinking who cares? It's a harbor with ships. What exactly is so amazing? 4 Link to comment
KingOfHearts July 20, 2014 Share July 20, 2014 (edited) Oh totally. When Adam or Eddy said, "I'd be disappointed if we don't visit Arendelle", I was thinking who cares? It's a harbor with ships. What exactly is so amazing? Is it possible Adam and Eddie had no intention of making 3B good at all? It seems like all they wanted to do was get to their time travel adventure and Frozen ASAP. The episodes nor Oz nor even Zelena got much special attention in the storytelling. The whole Zelena/Missing Year arc wasn't very epic or climactic at all. Watching the 3B winter break promos just makes the letdown more real. Edited July 20, 2014 by KingOfHearts Link to comment
KAOS Agent July 20, 2014 Share July 20, 2014 Is it possible Adam and Eddie had no intention of making 3B good at all? It seems like all they wanted to do was get to their time travel adventure and Frozen ASAP. No, Season 3B was Adam & Eddy wanting epic Regina fan fiction fantasies to become canon. I will say that I enjoyed New York City Serenade, Witch Hunt and even The Tower. The latter mostly for its David remembers Emma in the Enchanted Forest moments, the Rapunzel stuff and Snow being an absolute idiot with midwife and new BFF Zelena not so much. After that things went downhill fast. There are very few scenes up until the finale that I would ever even consider rewatching. I hated the time travel idea in general, but I deal with it in the finale because I loved watching Emma shine, so I try not to analyze and just enjoy the fun. This show was billed as Emma's fairy tale and it was about damn time she got a fairy tale princess adventure. After an entire half season of wasted potential with new characters, new lands and new mythology not being explored at all in depth and instead a lot of muhahaha-ing from a whiny villain, the finale was a nice palate cleanser. One can only hope that with ABC being more invested in them not screwing up the Frozen aspect of the show, that next season will be more tightly plotted with less wtf-ery. 5 Link to comment
myril July 20, 2014 Share July 20, 2014 (edited) From the Emma thread, by @retrograde Today on Twitter, Adam answered a fan's question about how the actual show differed from their original vision, and he responded:some things changed radically. but some stayed the same. It was always Emma comes to town as Savior & meets Mayor Regina That was quite telling to me. In season 1, at least, I thought the show was Emma comes to town and discovers her real family and also all the fairytale crap; Regina was one of the villains, but not the lead character. And I'd hazard a guess that that's the show a lot of people thought they were signing on for. Wonder if people had from the beginning rather diverse ideas what show they're signing for. What made you watch the show? To me Emma was the protagonist and Regina/Evil Queen the antagonist of the story. Didn't expect Regina to be that beyond season 1 though, thought her role would change in some way, be reduced, she was feeling remorse, well, things which didn't happen. Even Snow and Charming were in my view "just" supporting" characters, important to the story, main character even but not the leads. I found sassy Evil Queen and Mayor Regina intriguing as opposite to Emma, while Emma was the character who I wanted to learn more about. Despite Carlyle's brilliant acting Rumple was the character who annoyed me early on as getting too much attention for my taste (guess I am one of the few viewers saying Skin Deep is maybe a well written episode but far from being on any of my top lists), though I could fancy him as the big bad of all seasons. Still think he gets way too much story. Carlyle is really getting the best out of his character, and it is just for him that I find him enjoyable and interesting to watch, but I wouldn't miss Rumple otherwise much on the show, unless he is the ultimate bad of it, and in the end will pay big for the use of all the magic. Tthis show got me in the first place as finally a fantasy show with a bunch of complex, interesting women in the middle of the story. There is a major lack of this in the fantasy genre, no matter what screen, no matter what sub genre. Fantasy is still mostly men heroes, and as a woman and fantasy fan (and sci-fi, situation there is even more dire) I am honestly tired to see the "boys" getting the stories. No offense, I love some show with boys' stories, just would get a more equal share. Not shy to say, I don't mind if in one show they boys' would have to take the back seats. Now Once still puts women quite in the middle of the show, but unfortunately they are not as complex and diverse as I'd hoped for, but quite flat, if not one dimensional, and rather traditional only with more modern outfit (so to speak, not meaning the clothes they actual wear, those are not modern at all, lol). The biggest problem I have by now in general is that it is so much about romance and motherhood (mothers should be honored all year and not just one day, but motherhood is not what alone makes a woman), and that women friendship hardly exists on this show anymore. Women empowering women could give this show so much more, a new twist to fairy tale interpretations and even most modern story telling. I miss Red/Ruby big times because of that. And seeing Belle reduced to Rumple's love puppy breaks my heart. And I dislike, how they made this show so much about Regina and her alleged redemption (and I love Xena, so sure not someone who can't have a heart for the bad, but not so much for the evil like Regina). Season 3B deeply disappointed me, because on the surface and at first it sounded like they would let finally shine Emma again, and give more insights. Though I got a few insights, but I find it easy to understand her character, I don't think that the majority of audience has gotten a better understanding of Emma after these episodes, more the opposite. Making the final episode Emma's big moment without much of a connection to the rest of a season doesn't change that. It was still Regina who had the honours to defeat the big bad of the season (with a bit of team work but that was harldy noticed when I look at reactions and discussions). I started watching this show because of Emma, and complex, "strong" women in the middle of the story. Emma's fairy tale. I don't see it that much anymore in the show, sadly (no, I don't consider Regina or Zelena or Belle or Snow still as complex characters, they are by nearly rather one dimensional). (If anyone wonders: only still watch this show because of having sometimes really great discussions with people like you on forums, that is the fun part by now for me, watching the show has become more of pain) Edited July 20, 2014 by katusch 4 Link to comment
Shanna Marie July 20, 2014 Share July 20, 2014 What made you watch the show? I love fairy tales. I especially love stories that play with fairy tales. I love mash-ups that weave the tales together and show how the stories interconnect (Into the Woods is one of my favorite musicals). I also love it when a story gives a twist, fleshes out the fairy tale in a way that makes sense, or tells the story you didn't know was behind the traditional tale. So if you've got a show where the daughter of the miller's daughter from the Rumpelstiltskin tale is the Evil Queen of the Snow White story, Snow White becomes a badass fighter while living exiled from her castle, and Prince Charming turns out to really be a farmboy posing as his evil twin who was adopted by a king, then I'm pretty much drooling. But then I also love stories that move the traditional fairy tales to a modern setting, and I love fish-out-of-water stories. So, basically, everything I heard about this show before it started made it sound like it was written just for me, and I think the first half of the first season was exactly the show I was looking for. I saw Emma as the heroine and viewpoint character, the one who was going on a journey and who would be finding herself. She provided that modern vs. fairy tale contrast, with her very real-world sensibilities up against that fairytale world. There's also some wish-fulfillment fantasy there -- who didn't go through a phase as a kid when you didn't daydream about finding out that your parents were a king and queen, whether you were mad at your real parents and thought you might have been stolen away from your kingdom and your real parents would find you or whether you were sure your parents had to be more interesting than they seemed, so they might have been a fairytale king and queen in exile? (Or was that just me? I made up crazy stories in my head to entertain myself as a kid.) So, yeah, give me a woman who's been alone her whole life who finds out that her parents are Snow White and Prince Charming and she's a bit freaked out by that, and I'm in. I didn't care about Regina except as an antagonist, and I enjoyed watching her sow the seeds of her own destruction. Emma didn't defeat her. She defeated herself. It was her own paranoia and selfishness that led to the curse being broken, since Emma wasn't even trying to break a curse she didn't believe in. I think I would have enjoyed watching Regina continue to be a villain in a situation in which the tables had been turned entirely, where she was now trapped in this other world she'd sent everyone to and she was no longer in control or in power. I could have enjoyed a real redemption story in which she genuinely came to realize that she was the one who'd been making herself unhappy all this time. What I don't enjoy is her being the quasi-heroine of the piece who hasn't really repented but who's been moved to the "good guy" side of the board anyway so that the good guys are no longer allowed to oppose or criticize her for either her past actions or her current actions. I have absolutely zero tolerance for whiny "but why don't things work out for me?" villains. Look in the mirror, bitch. Where they're losing me on this show is with the wonky morality. One of the fun things about fairy tales is that they're fairly black and white. It's reassuring to have a world where the good guys win because they're good and the bad guys lose because they're bad. Yeah, you can work in some gray with human flaws that are bound to come up when you turn archetypes into actual characters, but when a good guy's human flaw is considered equivalent to a bad guy's evil actions or when the good guys aren't allowed to defend themselves against the bad guys or save the bad guy's victims without being considered to have done something as bad as the villain, then we're losing one of the things I like about fairy tales. 9 Link to comment
KingOfHearts July 20, 2014 Share July 20, 2014 (edited) No, Season 3B was Adam & Eddy wanting epic Regina fan fiction fantasies to become canon. What I mean is that they didn't care about the main arc, Missing Year, Zelena's story, or the just general plot. They focused on Regina's epic romance yes, but I didn't see the same attention to detail in 3B as I have with other seasons. The first two episodes were fine, but everything after that didn't have the depth nor intricacy of past story arcs. Edited July 20, 2014 by KingOfHearts Link to comment
YaddaYadda July 20, 2014 Share July 20, 2014 It didn't have that much depth because as always they were rushing through their plots so that they can play with their new shiny toy. They neglected delving into the characters more for the sake of getting to point "Z". Also, Regina's romance is anything but epic. My birds have a more epic love story. Bought them from two different places, they fight, scream and beat each other up, but they sleep one next to the other. So they got to love each other, right? 6 Link to comment
retrograde July 20, 2014 Share July 20, 2014 Wonder if people had from the beginning rather diverse ideas what show they're signing for. What made you watch the show? I also thought the show was going to be/would continue to be more episodic, with new fairytales coming in all the time, and Emma helping people find their happy endings etc. Seeing a new twist on an old story, meeting different characters every week, that was definitely part of the initial appeal for me. Kind of a fairytale procedural, almost. I thought it was a show about a town full of fairytale characters. I'm cool with longer arcs and season big bads, but I don't think they needed to be mutually exclusive. Others here have brought up Buffy and Eureka as exampled of shows that generally managed to do both. 3 Link to comment
stealinghome July 20, 2014 Author Share July 20, 2014 Yeah, I definitely came and stayed for the fairytale aspect of it. S1 Snowing was my jam--Snow and Charming were easily my favorite characters (Charming still is, Snow remains up there despite taking several hits)--and I've generally always been more into the fairybacks than the present-day stuff. (Unless the fairybacks feature endless shots of Regina crying about why no one likes her even as she stands over the bodies of the people she killed...those I hate, but then again, the Storybrooke parts of those episodes often features Woegina too, so that's not better.) I like Emma, but I don't find her as compelling as some other people on the board. But with that said, I agree that the modern-day part has always been Emma's fairytale, and I was really looking forward to the Charmings coming together as a family and taking on Regina and Rumpel in Storybrooke. (Oh, my disappointment.) I've said it before, so I won't belabor the point, but--the writers made a big mistake rushing Regina and Rumpel's "redemptions" in S2, and I do think more generally pushing them to the front of the show. In some respects it's hard to say, because the overall writing quality was much better in S1, but imo Regina and Rumpel were both much better characters in S1 in part because they were used in smaller doses. A little Regina/Rumpel goes a looooong way. 3 Link to comment
YaddaYadda July 20, 2014 Share July 20, 2014 I think Emma is a compelling enough when they actually delve into her character which doesn't happen enough, but then again this is an issue with the show, period. I started watching the show out of curiosity, with my husband who basically hated it because Regina was always winning. I enjoyed season 1 enough that I wanted to catch season 2, but honestly, the shallow part of me really stuck around because of the eye candy. Don't judge me. OUaT's casting department has been so awesome thus far, but the stories are lacking and they don't use everyone the way they really should. I am looking forward to S4, but I'm worried about the amount of Regina crying my eyes and ears are going to be subjected to. 2 Link to comment
Amerilla July 20, 2014 Share July 20, 2014 Is it possible Adam and Eddie had no intention of making 3B good at all? It seems like all they wanted to do was get to their time travel adventure and Frozen ASAP. The episodes nor Oz nor even Zelena got much special attention in the storytelling. The whole Zelena/Missing Year arc wasn't very epic or climactic at all. I don't think they're going out of their way to suck - it just comes naturally to them at this point. Someone I was just reading on Tumblr said that OUAT has fallen from fanfiction and turn into particularly bad crackfic, and I think that's about right. Yes, to me, a huge part of the overall problem is that they're increasingly focused on getting to the next Big Moment. That's a major flaw, because I think most people who watch episodic drama, particularly in fantasy, would prefer characterization and world-building, rather than these supposedly Big Moments. That said, I think it could still be an enjoyable show if they hadn't additionally locked themselves into these discrete 11-episode arcs. As KingofHearts points out, there's an utter lack of depth and intricacy at play now, and that really highlights the visible-from-space plot holes, their general inability to write compelling romance and meaningful dialog, and the lack of time given to - you guessed it - characterization and world-building. . 3 Link to comment
Camera One July 20, 2014 Share July 20, 2014 (edited) I don't think they're going out of their way to suck - it just comes naturally to them at this point. I agree. I don't doubt that Adam and Eddy are proud of their foray into Oz. They are the ones who decided to write the Zelena plot, solely to serve the Regina redemption plot. Zelena had no actual bond with any of the other protagonists except Rumple, who was basically a slave without free will in 3B. Much like Peter Pan was pretty much all about serving Rumple's rehabilitation. If they didn't think we would "enjoy" Zelena so much, they wouldn't have done the overkill. Unfortunately, the rewatch value of Zelena shaving Rumple and serving meat pies as he tries to seduce her are nil, which is a real shame since fairy tales are supposed to be watchable over and over again and it should still be as magical as the first time. The AV Club named New York City Serenade as the #14 worst episode of this past television season. I kind of have to agree with their reasoning--it wasn't an inherently bad episode, but it just completely deflated everything that was awesome about the winter finale--and, more broadly, it also kind of represents how meh 3B was as a whole. I too don't consider "New York City Serenade" to be the worst episode of S3, but I agree with stealinghome's assessment. That was the episode where the highest *potential* was squandered. With DVD marathon-ing of shows now, you cannot have a mid-season premiere which completely undoes the mid-season finale. Especially when "Going Home" had so much poignancy and new potential for Emma's new life, Snow/Charming's second loss of their daughter, Rumple's death and Regina's loss of Henry. Only the last one (Regina) was explored adequately but then reversed by "A Curious Thing". The second last one (Rumple)... instead of dealing with the impact of Rumple's death on Neal and Belle, they basically erased the situation by killing Neal so they wouldn't have to deal with it. Snow/Charming got nothing, and even worse than that, Snow was further destroyed by forcing her into serving the Regina plot. Which leaves Emma. To me, "New York City Serenade" was more about creating a satisfying Emma/Hook love story than about Emma herself. Which is fine and dandy if that's all one is watching for, but to me, so much potential was lost. I really wanted to see Emma's life in New York, and her and Henry realizing gradually that something was not "right", and then maybe somehow going to the Enchanted Forest or even to Oz in an accidental portal. It was a huge mistake to resurrect Storybrooke again so quickly since we had just been so sad to see the town disappear... it made no sense to bring everything back to square one in the very next episode. Edited July 20, 2014 by Camera One 4 Link to comment
KingOfHearts July 20, 2014 Share July 20, 2014 (edited) I really wanted to see Emma's life in New York, and her and Henry realizing gradually that something was not "right", and then maybe somehow going to the Enchanted Forest or even to Oz in an accidental portal. That's exactly what I was thinking. They really could have had fun with how Henry and Emma begin to believe, like going to Oz as you said. What if Emma/Henry were camping in Maine (of all places!), hid in a shack from a cyclone, and got transported to Oz? That would have been really cool because they would try to find their real home, and Henry would be Toto. The Wizard would provide the "way home" for Emma, but in reality, it would be a memory potion for her to remember her "true" home of Storybrooke. Meanwhile, the Wicked Witch is doing everything in her power to stop Emma from getting to EF to save her parents. Edited July 20, 2014 by KingOfHearts 1 Link to comment
myril July 20, 2014 Share July 20, 2014 (edited) I started watching the show out of curiosity, with my husband who basically hated it because Regina was always winning. I enjoyed season 1 enough that I wanted to catch season 2, but honestly, the shallow part of me really stuck around because of the eye candy. Don't judge me. I don't. And don't be shy about it. Enjoying to watch people you find beautiful, attractive is perfectly okay. What would be wrong is to judge people only by their looks. Bu you don't judge them, you judge maybe the show. I don't think they're going out of their way to suck - it just comes naturally to them at this point. Someone I was just reading on Tumblr said that OUAT has fallen from fanfiction and turn into particularly bad crackfic, and I think that's about right. Yes, to me, a huge part of the overall problem is that they're increasingly focused on getting to the next Big Moment. That's a major flaw, because I think most people who watch episodic drama, particularly in fantasy, would prefer characterization and world-building, rather than these supposedly Big Moments. That said, I think it could still be an enjoyable show if they hadn't additionally locked themselves into these discrete 11-episode arcs. As KingofHearts points out, there's an utter lack of depth and intricacy at play now, and that really highlights the visible-from-space plot holes, their general inability to write compelling romance and meaningful dialog, and the lack of time given to - you guessed it - characterization and world-building. . Was just musing about that as well. I am quite used to short seasons because I watch a lot of British shows (mostly crime shows) and Canadian shows, and seasons there can be even shorter sometimes, just 6-8 episodes, tough 1 hour episodes (full one hour, not the 43 minutes + advertising). Those shows are seldom big ensemble shows, maybe have 2-3 leads or just one, and they're not trying to tell like 3 or 4 different stories at a time. These shows never feel rushed at all, they take their time, even feel sometimes slow compared to US crime shows particular, developing characters slowly, and still manage to stay in the moment, no chase for adrenalin. I don't think it works that well for Once to split up a long season as if it were to single seasons. They pretty much burned two worlds in no time, Neverland and Oz. Of course, nothing really speaks against revisiting the places later again, with some other big story arc, although I doubt they will do that. They played with their toys, and now they got thrown into some corner to be forgotten for the next new toys to play with. There was no need to split the story arcs into two big bad arcs each season while splitting up for a more coherent airing schedule. It's not like in times of online streaming, on demand, and recording (oh, guess what, could do that even already in the analogue ages) people have no ways to keep alive what happened in the first half of the season, binge watching to get into more details, a different view even can be even fun for fans to bridge a break. It can be nice for taking a breath, discuss things. Once is too rushed, doesn't take time to breath and that damages character development, story and takes away fun. Sorry if I am not a fan of 5 minutes fast food cuisine in story telling (not to be mistaken with the art of short stories or something like poetry slam, that is an art I very much enjoy), I like to take time to taste an opulent meal. and even worse, Once has become an opulent meal I am meant to gobble down like a fast food burger. Impossible to stomach in a good way. In the second half of season 2 it began to annoy me, never got why they had to rush to Neverland like they did. The Homeoffice story was the weakest stuff they've written, Tamara and the Red Dragon were absolutely forgettable (in the case of the Dragon a pity), and it made the story arc with Cora suffer as well. They should have waited with the great showdown with Cora to the final episode of season 2, hinted at someone watching and a new big bad coming up, then started season 03 still in Storybrooke, let someone from inside Storybrooke kidnap Henry, Smee, King Georg, the Sherrif of Nottingham, all the evil minions, there were possibilties, people who would have loved to take revenge and get them away from Storybrooke., the Charmings, Emma and Regina and Rumple. Wendy and her brothers being from our world's past I found contrived and unbelievable anyway. And I am sure there could have been ways to isolate Neal from the rest for a while. There was nothing to tell from the Enchanted Forest present time though, they didn't tell how Phillip came back, and the love that doesn't speak it's name side story with Mulan was as bad as it can get (sorry, that was bait, not a decent story). Did they do all that just to show Robin's still around? And then Oz. Such a rich world, intriguing characters with the Wizard and the Witches, and the best they can come up with is some thrill ride with flying monkeys, a joke of a a wizard and a kooky Wicked Witch? The Missing year would have deserved more attention and so did Oz. Again rushed. And hearing all the praise by Paul Lee recently I think they hardly had to worry about more seasons. I don't get the rush in this show. Two big bads a season is not necessary. Edited July 20, 2014 by katusch 3 Link to comment
KAOS Agent July 20, 2014 Share July 20, 2014 I really wanted to see Emma's life in New York, and her and Henry realizing gradually that something was not "right", and then maybe somehow going to the Enchanted Forest or even to Oz in an accidental portal. I think we weren't allowed to see too much of Emma & Henry's life in NYC because we'd have seen that it was better for them. No one was actively out to kill them, they had down time for fun and Henry didn't feel all depressed and alone. I find it shameful that the show had Henry give up New York without a passing thought. I know he was happy to find his family and hanging with them would be cool for a couple weeks, but he was not happy in Storybrooke. He didn't have any friends and was lonely. In New York, he fit in because he was a normal boy in a normal world and had tons of friends. Regina was even pleased to hear this when she asked. And it's telling that she asked if he had friends because she knew that he was a lonely little boy in Storybrooke. A pre-teen would miss his friends. He'd be texting them all the time and be sad that he's missing out when they're doing something cool. And despite its magic, Storybrooke is really lame compared to all the things there are to do in a big city. He doesn't even have his Xbox there. I know that there are people who want Henry to have epic adventures with his family (no, I'm not one of them), but this cannot happen because when school is in session, Jared can only be filming for five hours a day. That includes make-up, wardrobe, rehearsal, etc. He cannot be a part of a major story arc where he can't be shuffled off doing something elsewhere because he's only available by law for a limited filming schedule. It's why he was on his own in Neverland. Having him separate from the main cast allowed them to do whatever without having to deal with Henry. 4 Link to comment
KingOfHearts July 20, 2014 Share July 20, 2014 (edited) And despite its magic, Storybrooke is really lame compared to all the things there are to do in a big city. He doesn't even have his Xbox there Henry's character is in a precarious place. He is in this transition stage from kid to adult, and I can imagine it only getting more awkward as he becomes an older teenager. Plus there's the We-Are-Both thing with Henry also having memory-less Henry inside him still. He can't just be surrounded by his family all the time without doing anything himself. If he's going to lose his NY life, I hope he at least gets to go to the Enchanted Forest some day and have a fulfilling life somewhere. I really hope we get to deal with NY a little more. That's probably not going to happen, but I'd really like to see Regina go with Henry to New York to help pack. That would stop the Woegina antics for a couple of eps, give Regina some perspective, and give Henry an easy C-Plot that wouldn't require lots of time to shoot. Just an example of stuff they should be doing with him. Edited July 20, 2014 by KingOfHearts 2 Link to comment
Camera One July 20, 2014 Share July 20, 2014 (edited) I know that there are people who want Henry to have epic adventures with his family (no, I'm not one of them), but this cannot happen because when school is in session, Jared can only be filming for five hours a day. That includes make-up, wardrobe, rehearsal, etc. He cannot be a part of a major story arc where he can't be shuffled off doing something elsewhere because he's only available by law for a limited filming schedule. It's why he was on his own in Neverland. Having him separate from the main cast allowed them to do whatever without having to deal with Henry. Oh for sure, they need to work with the reality of the filming availability of the actors, especially Jared. But the question is HOW these characters are used. If you have Henry available for a C Plot of an episode, should it be spent on kooky hijinks of him learning how to drive a car? Or could it be better used having Henry intelligently realizing something isn't quite A-ok with this town, or perhaps showing him missing NYC as you suggested. Ditto for Neverland. Yes, they had limited time with Jared. Yes, they needed him to hand over his heart to Peter Pan. But did they need to make him stupid in multiple episodes (using up his precious screentime) to get to that point? Or could they give him a plausible reason? Another example is Snow's screentime. Why waste 3 episodes with Ginny's more limited screentime acting like a gullible idiot as Zelena played midwife? Zelena could easily just waltz in once the baby was born to kidnap it. In the Enchanted Forest flashbacks, why spend 2 Snow White scenes on counselling Regina on the grief of losing Henry? Why devote zero to how Snow was feeling about having lost Emma? Emma finds out in the Echo Cave about her father dying and/or staying in Neverland forever. Should Emma's next episode be about the Emma/Hook/Neal love triangle? Or should it be Emma dealing with her father's illness and all the ramifications? Why was it the former rather than the latter? These are all choices. The first stage of planning I'd imagine is splitting up the episodes for the different characters, and Regina will get the most, and that would be a given. But for all the other characters, that makes the way their characters are used all the more important. Rumple often gets gold despite his limited screentime (with exception of 3B). Now why is that? Maybe because he's a villain and so "fun" to write for? Edited July 20, 2014 by Camera One 5 Link to comment
Rumsy4 July 20, 2014 Share July 20, 2014 Here's an article I posted on TWoP: http://www.onceuponafans.com/apps/blog/show/18386224-the-magical-road-ahead-a-chat-with-adam-eddy In it, Adam and Eddy speak about the original germ of their idea for OUAT. Here's the relevant part: Then we talked about how hard it must be to be the Evil Queen in a place where there are only happy endings! Everything that she tries to make happen there fails. So where’s the one place that the Evil Queen could win? That has to be our world. That was the original idea we had years ago This, in a nutshell, sums up their vision for the Show. It's their story to tell, of course, but like others, I feel that they pulled a bait and switch on us. S1 was the most compelling Season, and even then, there were places where plot drove the characterizations (like when Emma believed Sydney). Now--it's almost entirely plot-oriented, with mere lip-service being paid to proper character development. In S1, I loved trying to figure out who was who, and how Emma would believe, and how they would defeat the Evil Queen. S2 became progressively unwatchable to me, and a large reason was how idiotic the good guys were being, and Regina's flip-flopping. S3A was a big improvement on S2, and that, and Captain Swan, is why I've kept watching. In retrospect, 3B is almost entirely horrendous. New York City Serenade was good as a standalone episode, or taken as part A of the Season Finale. Otherwise the first and last episodes of the Season had no connection to rest of 3B. My main interest is still in Emma's story. I still hope that they will focus more on her, but it is most likely to be a fool's hope. ;-) 3 Link to comment
Camera One July 20, 2014 Share July 20, 2014 (edited) Eddy: Then we talked about how hard it must be to be the Evil Queen in a place where there are only happy endings! Everything that she tries to make happen there fails. Oh cry me a freak'in river. Maybe she would have a happy ending if she tried to get a life instead of blaming Snow for killing Daniel. And maybe she doesn't deserve a happy ending since she's actively trying to murder her stepdaughter. Are we supposed to *want* her NOT to fail in everything she "tries"? Oh yay, she killed Snow White, let's all rejoice. Other quotes from their interview... Eddy: I think that’s a great point. I mean, if you were somebody like Archie, for instance, who has a conscience and for twenty years thought he was a psychiatrist—but now he remembers who he was and what he did to Geppetto’s parents. So I think the philosophical debate of “Are they better off knowing or not?” and “Who do we want to be—people of Storybrooke or Fairy Tale Land?” is definitely something we are going to explore this season. I don’t think it’s as easy as we would assume it would be. LOL! When did they ever deal with this? This made it sound like they were going to give Archie a centric episode or something. It really makes you realize you should never trust them when they say they're going to "explore" something this season. Adam: So what we have now is potentially a new character for each one of these characters! They are now products of both their Fairy Tale lives and their cursed lives. What’s that going to mean? How do they come to terms with that? That’s what we’re hoping will be the fodder for drama. So this was "We Are Both". Full stop. Never "explored" again. Eddy: We wanted to get into these interesting character decisions. Mary Margaret is much weaker than Snow White the bandit. But at the same time, Snow White the bandit was only Snow White the mother for 12 seconds before she had to shove her child into a magical wardrobe. Her child is 28 now, and she’s going to realize everything she’s missed. So there are a lot of really complex emotions that they haven’t even begun to understand yet. Again, what a crock. No, they did not "want" to get into interesting character decisions. They forgot about this after a few episodes. Eddy: Well you know, we’re big fans of painting ourselves into a corner and seeing what happens! Well, we know what happens now. You can't get yourself out. Diane: Most fans, if I ask them who are the main characters of the show, will say Emma, Snow and Prince Charming. Will that focus change at all in Season 2, or will they still be the most prominent players of good? Adam: It’s going to be similar to what we did last year, in that they are the central core of our show, along with the Evil Queen and Rumpel, and how their lives all intertwine. But like Season 1, there are other players who will come out of the woodwork who will have an impact on our core group. Eddy: And I would also add to that core group Henry as well as Rumpelstiltskin and the Evil Queen. Because I feel that a lot of Season 1 was finding out about the Evil Queen and Rumpel. I think there’s much more to tell about both of them this year. LOL how the interviewer listed Emma, Snow and Charming as the main characters, and both A&E had to remind her she forgot Rumple and the Evil Queen. Diane: I heard once that Eddy’s favorite fairy tale character is Peter Pan, but that you couldn’t get the rights to feature his character yet. But once I saw the flash of that hook, does that mean you did get the rights to work with Neverland characters?Eddy: Yes, that’s exactly right. We now can do Peter Pan, Captain Hook, and all of their cohorts in Neverland. So this interview confirms they had the rights to do Peter Pan in August 2012, long before 2B was even written. Hmm... We’ll have an idea, let’s say for instance, the Red Riding Hood episode—we all decided in the room, “Wouldn’t it be great if she’s the Werewolf?” So we all work on it together. And then Jane [Espenson] will go off with the work we did and write the episode. It’s kind of a rotation throughout the year of writers, but it’s really a collaborative thing I pretty much imagine this as how any plot point is decided on for this show. Since there's actually no rhyme or reason behind it. Edited July 20, 2014 by Camera One 1 Link to comment
KingOfHearts July 21, 2014 Share July 21, 2014 LOL! When did they ever deal with this? This made it sound like they were going to give Archie a centric episode or something. There was actually a deleted scene where Archie walked by Mr. Gold's shop and saw the puppets in the window. He looked distraught, then just kept walking. Link to comment
Camera One July 21, 2014 Share July 21, 2014 (edited) Is it me or are Regina and Mary Margaret the only two characters that are completely different from their Enchanted Forest counterparts? Charming, Hook, Granny, Red and Archie don't act very differently at all, but Regina and Snow are treated as totally separate characters from their past selves. Snow insists she be called Mary Margaret (gag), Regina's sins in the Enchanted Forest are pretty much "forgiven" and absolved in Storybrooke, Snow is way too gullible to ever come close to Bandit Snow, Regina is accepted into the Charmings, and Snow doesn't even want to adventure any more. Charming only had a cursed identity for a short time. Hook never had a cursed identity. Regina had a cursed identity as mayor but she did not have a memory wipe so she didn't take on a different personality. Her change is different since she's supposedly different since she "changed". Snow's change is mostly bad writing, or more accurately, unfocused writing. With some of the other characters, they have a clear direction where the character needs to go (it's especially clear and easy for the villains they want to redeem). They don't have this for Snow. I agree it would be harder to come up with something for her, but it's hard and the writers aren't interested anyway. As for Red, Granny, Archie, etc., they haven't explored at all how they have adjusted, or how they feel about "we are both". They did one episode with Red, but "Child of the Moon" was very weak. I don't understand why they still had Red wearing the skimpy diner outfit. I guess Dr. Whale did get an episode with his adjustment. The others like Granny, Archie, Gepetto, Blue and Leroy are all out of luck, though. And now they have to compete with even more characters. Edited July 21, 2014 by Camera One Link to comment
stealinghome July 21, 2014 Author Share July 21, 2014 Diane: Most fans, if I ask them who are the main characters of the show, will say Emma, Snow and Prince Charming. Will that focus change at all in Season 2, or will they still be the most prominent players of good? Adam: It’s going to be similar to what we did last year, in that they are the central core of our show, along with the Evil Queen and Rumpel, and how their lives all intertwine. But like Season 1, there are other players who will come out of the woodwork who will have an impact on our core group. Eddy: And I would also add to that core group Henry as well as Rumpelstiltskin and the Evil Queen. Because I feel that a lot of Season 1 was finding out about the Evil Queen and Rumpel. I think there’s much more to tell about both of them this year. LOL how the interviewer listed Emma, Snow and Charming as the main characters, and both A&E had to remind her she forgot Rumple and the Evil Queen. It IS funny--but I also think it really does speak to the disconnect between Adam&Eddie and the audience. At least in Season 1, it was clear to the audience that Emma, Snow, and Charming were the main characters of the show, and the audience was tuning in with that expectation. And then Season 2 hit, the Charmings became bit players, and the ratings tanked. I'm not saying there's causation, but I am saying there's correlation.... 3 Link to comment
myril July 21, 2014 Share July 21, 2014 (edited) It IS funny--but I also think it really does speak to the disconnect between Adam&Eddie and the audience. At least in Seted ason 1, it was clear to the audience that Emma, Snow, and Charming were the main characters of the show, and the audience was tuning in with that expectation. And then Season 2 hit, the Charmings became bit players, and the ratings tanked. I'm not saying there's causation, but I am saying there's correlation.... Didn't they mention on some panel, in an interview, that at an early stage they'd planned to kill Charming though in the first episode? But agree, there might be a correlation between different perception in the audience and what the writers find exiting and want to write about. Regina was always on my list of main characters though, a protagonists does better with a good antagonist, I saw her and Emma as the lead in the pilot. The pilot introduced us to the Enchanted Forest and Storybrooke through Emma and Henry (and his Storybook). The second episode gave background for Regina (Title: The Thing You Love Most - sic!), the third was about Snow and Charming falling in love (Snow Falls), the fourth gave some insights to Rumple (The Price of Gold), as did the following about how Archie became Jiminy. That the second episode was about Regina says a lot (but I only now noticed the possible other meaning of the episode title) I think some people at least saw something of what A&E intended or to some degree. I did, though disliked Rumple as part of it. Still I felt betrayed during season 2 when I realized that nevertheless I saw a different show at the beginning than A&E ever might have intended, because Regina and Rumple were taking more attention, and even more in my view the lack of attention to women friendships (mentioned that already before, so just in short), and diverging more and more from confronting fairy tale characters with our bleak world with little magic. Remember people had a lot of fun at the beginning about speculating, which fairy tale character a new actor might be, how other fairy tales could come into play, about hints for the story. Now the speculation is about, who will be whose romance or related in what way, lost brother, sister, aunt, mother, granddad, whatever. Not that this can't be a bit of fun too eventually, but with all the fairy tales and tales, the richness of mythology of Greek, Norse, Arthurian and other sagas, more tales to discover even from other cultures, the fun of (re-) discovering folktales as much as pop culture history there was something to work with and let imagination run wild. I don't get that feeling that much anymore in the fandom nor from the show. Mixing in Peter Pan and now Oz might have been not that much of a good idea even, although I get the thrill of doing it. It could be okay to go more into the fantasy worlds, if they would finally do some proper world building, but it's still mostly haphazardly. The rules of magic can be way too easily changed and seems to be no big deal to break them, regardless that the characters say otherwise (rule of storytelling: show if you can, not just tell). The Dark Curse is something that in a generation probably a 4th grader can cast, which though is kinda how technology and knowledge works, next generation finds it easier to handle it, knowledge becomes more common (though I guess I still could beat some Millenials in computer knowledge), the more its done, the more practice, the more one can work out kinks and make it easier to do. Nevertheless, there never has been much world building, and that is the tricky part of any fantasy, but the way to keep characters relatable and grounded. The other way is to make Storybrooke that anchor for the character development, but exploring boring real world problems seems not to be any strength of these writers. Being flashy is fine for a fantasy (animated) characters, good and even more so the evil ones, but this is real action show not animated series, and doubt they want to go campy and be still taken somewhat serious, but I struggle to take any characters besides Emma serious. Mixing drama and comedy is high art, and no, this show is not that. Maybe they should study some Shakespeare again (remember Whedon liked to do that with his cast in leisure time). Edited July 21, 2014 by katusch Link to comment
Dani-Ellie July 21, 2014 Share July 21, 2014 (edited) The other way is to make Storybrooke that anchor for the character development, but exploring boring real world problems seems not to be any strength of these writers. I don't know if it's necessarily not a strength of theirs, but they clearly have no real interest in it. When the show does slow down for five seconds and lets the emotion take center stage, I do feel like it does it well. It just happens so few and far between. They'd rather rush the plot along, zooming from plot point to plot point, leaving no time for the characters to work out how they feel about any of it. As such, the audience ends up with no real connection to any of it, because we have no idea where the characters' heads are. The actors try to inject emotion into it, but there's only so much actors can do with material that doesn't let the emotion come to the surface. I actually think this entire cast does extremely well bringing emotion out of relatively emotionless material. I shudder to think how much of a hot mess this show would be in the hands of a less capable cast. That's another reason the breakneck speed of the plot frustrates me, by the way. This cast is so good. They work wonderfully together and I think it's clear from behind-the-scenes stuff that they have a blast together. That's not something that happens a lot in this business, and I really wish the writers would realize what they have in their cast. I wish the writing would play to everyone's talents on a more consistent basis. To use a cheesy pun, this show could be magical, if the writing would allow it. Edited July 21, 2014 by Dani-Ellie 5 Link to comment
Camera One July 21, 2014 Share July 21, 2014 (edited) Regina was always on my list of main characters though, a protagonists does better with a good antagonist, I saw her and Emma as the lead in the pilot. The pilot introduced us to the Enchanted Forest and Storybrooke through Emma and Henry (and his Storybook). The second episode gave background for Regina (Title: The Thing You Love Most - sic!), the third was about Snow and Charming falling in love (Snow Falls), the fourth gave some insights to Rumple (The Price of Gold), as did the following about how Archie became Jiminy. That the second episode was about Regina says a lot (but I only now noticed the possible other meaning of the episode title) I think some people at least saw something of what A&E intended or to some degree. I did, though disliked Rumple as part of it. I agree it was obvious from the start that Regina and Rumple were part of the main cast. It was already in the second episode that we saw Regina's "side" of the story. And the fourth episode threw away Cinderella's story to service Rumple, and even by that point, it was obvious they were going to try to shoehorn Rumple in wherever (considering the third story with Jiminy's backstory). I had no problem that the show was going to feature both the "good guys" and the villains, but at that point, the show was portraying itself as an ensemble series, where everyone got their day in the sun. That's very much like the first three seasons of "Lost", and that's one of the reasons I was attracted to that show. On "Lost", characters like Grumpy, Granny, Gepetto, Blue and Archie would have gotten smaller story arcs and a second flashback filling out their story. I know a lot of people would think that's a waste of time, but everyone watches for different things, and on a fairy tale show, I wanted the whole fairy tale world, with world building and community building. And a little goes a long way with the main characters. Having one awesome Regina episode is more powerful than three hammering at the same point. As I've said before, I personally think it's how Snow, Charming and Emma have been mis-used which is the problem rather than their screentime, which is also a problem, since it has become unequitable, in both quality AND quantity, by Season 2. Rumple got less screentime than Snow and Emma, yes, but sprouting exposition and running away being chased by monsters is not "quality" screentime to me. Regina and Rumple were taking more attention, and even more in my view the lack of attention to women friendships (mentioned that already before, so just in short), and diverging more and more from confronting fairy tale characters with our bleak world with little magic.That's the other thing with these writers. Instead of exploring other aspects of a character, such as friendship, they just repeat ad nauseum the same relationships such as Regina/Snow. At some point, too much is actually damaging to the characters. Not that this can't be a bit of fun too eventually, but with all the fairy tales and tales, the richness of mythology of Greek, Norse, Arthurian and other sagas, more tales to discover even from other cultures, the fun of (re-) discovering folktales as much as pop culture history there was something to work with and let imagination run wild. I don't get that feeling that much anymore in the fandom nor from the show. Mixing in Peter Pan and now Oz might have been not that much of a good idea even, although I get the thrill of doing it.I really wish they did that. There is so much rich material in folktales and fairy tales from all of those sources, and the writers do not use them. They rely on predictable, done-before plots. I mean even Oz... they could have taken so many neat elements or plot ideas from the book series, which could have made that half season so much more fascinating. I know they do have a challenge of also creating character arcs for the main characters USING these source stories, but they chose the Wicked Witch, the most "popular" aspect of the Oz tale, but only tied her to Regina and Rumple. That is a blatant example of how inequitable the focus is, by this third season. It doesn't feel like an emsemble. It feels like the Villains Show with a side of romance between Emma and Hook. I don't know if it's necessarily not a strength of theirs, but they clearly have no real interest in it. When the show does slow down for five seconds and lets the emotion take center stage, I do feel like it does it well. It just happens so few and far between.They did slow down in 3A but ultimately (on rewatch) I found it unsatisfying even when they did, because the allotment of these are still biased (Emma and Hook got lots of heart-to-hearts, but at the expense of family relationships - for example, shouldn't one of the Emma/Hook conversations in "The Tower" have been given to Emma/Charming, while Snow/Charming often ended up stuck with one another in a C Plot (going to get water, etc.) having pointless or repetitive conversations. Plus, sometimes these conversations were completely isolated from the bigger story. That's another reason the breakneck speed of the plot frustrates me, by the way. This cast is so good. They work wonderfully together and I think it's clear from behind-the-scenes stuff that they have a blast together.And therein lies the biggest reason why I think many of us are frustrated with the show. The *potential* is so high. There are many shows with subpar writing, but the characters and cast are so meh that I don't care. But there are a minute or so worth of every "Once" episode where the writing slows down and the cast sells their emotions so well that you can't help but love the characters. This is one of the shows where I do like every main character, even Regina and Rumple. And that is very rare. Edited July 21, 2014 by Camera One 4 Link to comment
Shanna Marie July 21, 2014 Share July 21, 2014 From the media thread: For me, Emma gave into drinking the potion way too easily. Like, I'm not opposed in theory to Emma regaining her memories in the first episode back--but it was just too easy! There was never any real sense of struggle, no sense that Emma was not going to take the potion. And like, I know for out-of-universe reasons that it was a foregone conclusion that she would get her memories back, of course, but the writers really failed at communicating that sense of urgency, that Hook had to convince her or everyone was fucked. That I do agree with, though I don't think it should have taken Emma more than one episode to get her memories back. This is where the rest of the season retroactively sabotages the mid-season premiere. If there had been some sense of urgency or real danger leading up to re-casting the curse and not just them twiddling their thumbs for the better part of a year before deciding to put the ball in Emma's court, then that would have lent more urgency to Hook's mission. If, say, that one of the reasons for casting the curse was because they'd learned that Zelena had sent one of her minions after Emma, which meant that an Emma with no memories of any of the fairytale stuff or her own magic powers would have been a sitting duck, and if Neal had conveyed a sense of that danger in his note to Hook, then the urgency would automatically have been amped up if Hook was trying to protect Emma and save her life, not just on some vague "I think maybe your parents need you" mission. There could have been a sense of battle or struggle between Hook and Walsh because Walsh surely would have realized that Hook was not from around here, and Walsh might have given himself away somehow so that Hook figured out he was the threat. Both of them would have had to play it delicately with Emma, though, since she wasn't in the know and it would have been very easy to put her off. It would have really taxed Hook's cleverness to find a way to force Walsh to reveal himself. Actually seeing a flying monkey would have been a big impetus to drinking the potion -- like "I need an explanation for this" rather than "well, you're hot and you were right about that address." One of the wasted opportunities of the missing year is that if they'd done it right, it would have rewarded rewatching. The earlier episodes would take on a whole new light once we learned what had really happened to lead up to that point. Instead, all we got was the big twists that Walsh was the Wizard of Oz and that Snow and Charming cast the curse. And it turns out that Emma didn't even need her memories and didn't even need to go to Storybrooke because she played no role in the outcome. 6 Link to comment
Camera One July 21, 2014 Share July 21, 2014 I don't think it should have taken Emma more than one episode to get her memories back. I tend to think that the mistake was not necessarily having Emma get her memories back too quickly, but resetting Storybrooke and bringing everyone back there too quickly. 2 Link to comment
stealinghome July 21, 2014 Author Share July 21, 2014 Yes and no. I don't think it should have taken Emma more than 1 episode to get her memories back--but imo it should have taken the entire first episode. "New York City Serenade" should have ended with Emma downing the potion and asking "Hook????" in a shocked tone of voice. With that said, that of course would push the return of Storybrooke back to 3x13 (my preference would even have been to the end of 3x13--let most of 3x13 be Emma dealing with remembering/Walsh stuff), and I do think, even though that delay might seem minor, waiting for an episode to go back to Storybrooke would have helped with the sense of undoing everything that was awesome about the winter finale. (Come to think of it, I can't believe we didn't get a scene in the car when they approach Storybrooke and Emma's grip on the wheel goes white-knuckled and the car passes under a "dome" of magic that Henry is fortunately asleep and misses. We just pulled up and parallel parked like it was no big deal!) But no, we had to rush to get to Storybrooke so that...we could have Zelena prance around and do absolutely nothing for like 6 episodes, I guess. One of the wasted opportunities of the missing year is that if they'd done it right, it would have rewarded rewatching. The earlier episodes would take on a whole new light once we learned what had really happened to lead up to that point. Agreed. This is what Season 1 did really well--once you got to the final few episodes, the rest of the season took on a lot more depth (Rumpel's machinations to build the curse, Snowing's desperation and faith in the pilot). I still don't understand why they don't understand what made the fairybacks really work in S1. 2 Link to comment
RadioGirl27 July 21, 2014 Share July 21, 2014 I agree with you stealinghome, the begining of 3B would have been better that way, but that would have ment two episodes without Regina and we all know that is something A&E don't contemplate. 1 Link to comment
Shanna Marie July 21, 2014 Share July 21, 2014 I agree with you stealinghome, the begining of 3B would have been better that way, but that would have ment two episodes without Regina and we all know that is something A&E don't contemplate. We could have seen Regina in flashbacks, actually doing something to live up to her "Now I have something to live for: Someone to destroy!" boast. I'm not entirely sure I agree that they should have delayed the return to Storybrooke all that much, maybe just to the second episode of the arc -- end the first with Emma's memories returning, then begin the next with the approach to Storybrook. Snow's pregnancy wasn't that big a cliffhanger. I just think it would have felt like more went into undoing the mid-season finale if we'd seen more of that missing year and saw everything that went into re-casting the curse so that it seemed like a much bigger deal. It would have been nice if they'd delayed Zelena's appearance -- or, at least, her appearance when we knew who she was -- a bit so they could have played with the idea of Emma being back in Storybrooke and getting a sense of what the community was like in Curse 2. That's the downside of these half-season arcs. Since they're stuck in this location, they don't have room to do many one-off episodes that are more character-driven and that really play with the situation while there's an obvious threat that they're having to team up to tackle. They don't have the luxury of taking a whole year in Storybrooke time (or however long it was) like they did in season one. 1 Link to comment
stealinghome July 21, 2014 Author Share July 21, 2014 I agree with you stealinghome, the begining of 3B would have been better that way, but that would have ment two episodes without Regina and we all know that is something A&E don't contemplate. We could have seen Regina in flashbacks, actually doing something to live up to her "Now I have something to live for: Someone to destroy!" boast. Yeah, I was going to say, we could have kept the fairybacks in 3x12 and 3x13 (perhaps with some slight modification in 3x13, granted). Depending on how they played it, that could have been very poignant. so they could have played with the idea of Emma being back in Storybrooke and getting a sense of what the community was like in Curse 2. I think this ties into one of the larger problems of/disappointments with 3B, though, which is that nothing about Storybrooke seemed different when it came back (other than that there are now a bunch of hobos/ex-Merry Men living in the forest, I suppose). I'm still baffled that before 3B we got that spoiler that was all "things are slightly different in Storybrooke" or "not quite right" or whatever it said, because...everything was exactly the same. I mean, David even said as much in 3x12! And given that the first curse was cast by an evil tyrant and the second by two benevolent rulers, I think that at least some small things should have been different. Again--wasted opportunities for an interest reset. 1 Link to comment
Camera One July 22, 2014 Share July 22, 2014 I'm not entirely sure I agree that they should have delayed the return to Storybrooke all that much, maybe just to the second episode of the arc -- end the first with Emma's memories returning, then begin the next with the approach to Storybrook. If they wanted to do the same ol' thing they actually did in 3B, then yeah, they needed Storybrooke returned asap. But I would have preferred much bigger changes to the narrative. Maybe Emma and Henry arriving and finding no Storybrooke, which only appears later, or Hook not in the first episode, or Emma and Henry getting swept away to Oz. Once Emma got back to Storybrooke, as @stealinghome said, it was EXACTLY the same, except for Snow's pregnancy and a few new characters. That's the downside of these half-season arcs. Since they're stuck in this location, they don't have room to do many one-off episodes that are more character-driven and that really play with the situation while there's an obvious threat that they're having to team up to tackle. They don't have the luxury of taking a whole year in Storybrooke time (or however long it was) like they did in season one. What they do is entirely up to Adam and Eddy. Setting up Zelena's lame-ass plan and her sorry-ass backstory did not require as many episodes as it did. Peter Pan didn't need to see everyone spin around the forest like a Carousel before he grabbed Henry's heart. 1 Link to comment
Mari July 22, 2014 Share July 22, 2014 They actually could have had Neverland last the entire season, if they had incorporated more than just the potted plants and Pan's lost boys. I understand wanting to stay away from Princess Tiger Lily, but they could've done quite a bit more with the mermaids, the Darlings, Hook/Pan's back story, and fairies/pixies, etc . . . . There even could've been more story to the Lost Boys, if it were done properly. If it had been more of an adventure, interspersed with the occasional episode about what was going on in Storybrooke? It could've worked. I don't understand the firm believe that the two halves of the season must be completely separate, Why not simply stop the first part of the season with a major reveal and a mini win/loss for the good guys? Don't finish the whole story; plant seeds for the next part of the season. Link to comment
ParadoxLost July 22, 2014 Share July 22, 2014 Didn't they mention on some panel, in an interview, that at an early stage they'd planned to kill Charming though in the first episode? But agree, there might be a correlation between different perception in the audience and what the writers find exiting and want to write about. Unless there was a massive change in the writing staff at the end of season 1, I have to wonder if there are multiple factions at play. I tend to think that the writers may come down more on what I perceive to be what this online community wants, which is complex stories that explore the fairy tales and the relationships between the characters. How could season 1 exist if that wasn't the writers original intent? However, I think there is a good chance that online and casual viewers don't necessarily want the same things. Who knows, maybe the majority of viewers are kids and their families and they are just looking for "family" entertainment and are happy with the surface level adventures and relationships. I'm not, I'd be happier if they went old school fairy tales where the writer has to solve conundrums like.."Wait, there are cannibals in Sleeping Beauty??" Add into this that Disney likely has a very active role in what the show can and can not do with their property. I could see that not having the freedom that a typical network show has, which is not a lot, could very easily lead to bland. Link to comment
Camera One July 22, 2014 Share July 22, 2014 (edited) Unless there was a massive change in the writing staff at the end of season 1, I have to wonder if there are multiple factions at play. The writing team itself is pretty much dictated by Adam and Eddy's directions. If there are other factions, that would be the network and Disney. If I were Disney, I would have been pissed off they killed the beloved Fairy Godmother and made Peter Pan a creepy villain. But they were fine with that, so I doubt they are all that restricted. I tend to think that the writers may come down more on what I perceive to be what this online community wants, which is complex stories that explore the fairy tales and the relationships between the characters. The writers actually think they have succeeded at doing this in Season 2 and Season 3, though. So it's not a mismatch of what we want and what the writers want. It's dissonance between what they say they're doing and what they are actually delivering. I do agree it's their show and it's their prerogative, but I would think they do care if diehard fans are disappointed in the writing for the show. Edited July 22, 2014 by Camera One 1 Link to comment
Mari July 22, 2014 Share July 22, 2014 It's dissonance between what they say they're doing and what they are actually delivering. I do agree it's their show and it's their prerogative, but I would think they do care if diehard fans are disappointed in the writing for the show. Most writers would be. How tuned into the fandom are they? Because if they are mostly hearing/seeing the most vocal bits, that might not match up with what the overall fandom thinks. Link to comment
KAOS Agent July 22, 2014 Share July 22, 2014 How tuned into the fandom are they? Because if they are mostly hearing/seeing the most vocal bits, that might not match up with what the overall fandom thinks. Evil Regals are a very, very vocal section of the fandom and it lines right up with A&E's preferences. I think it does reinforce their writing tendencies. However, ABC/Disney has a huge marketing department and does collect information from what would be termed the "casual viewer" and I think will push back a bit if that info came through saying viewers were tuning out due to "too much Regina" or "not enough Rumpel". I don't think it guides the storylines very much though unless it's something everyone hates like Greg/Tamara. That said, 3B in general was just such a mess and the extreme negative reaction to the leaked "Kansas" clip and actually that episode in general was really indicative to me that a lot of people were tired of the Regina does it all storytelling. As we've laid out in this thread, it's not problematic that Regina got the win (it was billed as Evil v Wicked after all), it's that not one other person was required at all and that kind of thing doesn't work on a show with a large ensemble cast. I have to say I'm hopeful that Disney has sent their big creative director to OUAT this season. While I know he's there to protect the Frozen brand, maybe he can provide some helpful suggestions for other aspects of the story. 1 Link to comment
Jean July 22, 2014 Share July 22, 2014 Adam and Eddy wanted to kill Charming in the pilot flashbacks. The network execs said no way when it was pitched. In S1 they both talked a lot about getting permission to do or write something. That changed in S2. They started saying they were pretty much given free reign. It's just strange how S1 is so different in every way from the latter 2. The wtiters might rely on online craziness for feedback but ABC/Disney runs focus groups for feedback but not often. I think they only do it when there's a drastic change in ratings. I figured out why the flashbacks bother me so much now. S1's flashbacks formed one coherent story by itself. If you just watch the flashbacks and not the modern stuff it still stands alone as a story. Now the flashbacks are filler. It's a one off specific to that episode and it doesn't build to anything. As for how this show was pitched originally, I thought it was exactly how S1 went. A fairytale procedural with Emma as the outside narrator and Rumpel as the big mysterious figureand the whole shebang focused on Snow White. If I recall correctly the pilot trailer's first scene was the Rumpel and Emma introduction scene bookended by Rumpel ominously smirking at Emma. Now its turned into Days of Woegina's life. And technically Ginny is the leading lady of the show as she gets first billing, but you wouldn't know it by watching. 6 Link to comment
Camera One July 22, 2014 Share July 22, 2014 (edited) S1's flashbacks formed one coherent story by itself. If you just watch the flashbacks and not the modern stuff it still stands alone as a story. Now the flashbacks are filler. It's a one off specific to that episode and it doesn't build to anything. That structure would be really tough to do again after S1, because the main thrust of the "Snow White" backstory (Snow meets Prince, Huntsman tries to kill her, Snow on the run, Evil Queen tries to kill her attempt, Prince almost marries someone else, Snow eats apple, Prince wakes her up) was arguably complete (except for Evil Queen tries to kill her attempt 20, Evil Queen tries to kill her attempt 21, Evil Queen tries to kill her attempt 22, etc.). When S1 ended, I did think they would make an attempt to do this in S2 by telling how Snow and Charming got onto the throne. I'm not sure there's enough to tell for an entire season, but maybe it shows a lot that the writers didn't even TRY to develop a full story with this. The writers had a much clearer intention to use the S2 flashbacks to develop Regina with flashbacks to how she learned magic, how she met Rumple, how her mother met Rumple, how Regina got rid of Cora, etc. and also how Rumple lost Milah, how he got his powers of foresight and how he met Hook. Now, these flashbacks DID tell a complete story unlike the Snow/Charming ones. When I first watched the S2 premiere, for a moment there, I thought maybe S2 would show Sleeping Beauty's whole backstory, piece by piece, like how S1 showed Snow White. But this would actually have been much tougher to carry out, since you can't have a flashback on Aurora or Philip or Maleficient, when the current parallel story has Emma, Snow, Charming or Regina, who wouldn't directly connect to the Sleeping Beauty story. Doing this and having it make sense or be coherent would be a huge challenge and I'm not sure it's possible. I do think they tried to go back to this S1 pattern with the 3B flashbacks, which supposedly piece by piece revealed what happened in the missing year. Except practically nothing happened in the missing year, from what we can see, and that's likely why it didn't work. 3A flashbacks faltered because they mined the same time periods already done to death in S1 and S2. It will be interesting to see if S4 will have a mixture of traditional flashbacks (back to what era? aside from the obvious one with Marion) and FrozenBacks or if it will just be FrozenBacks (unlikely) or what. The only person who might get a Missing Year flashback is Hook, if they do show him selling the Jolly Roger. Edited July 22, 2014 by Camera One Link to comment
retrograde July 22, 2014 Share July 22, 2014 However, I think there is a good chance that online and casual viewers don't necessarily want the same things. Who knows, maybe the majority of viewers are kids and their families and they are just looking for "family" entertainment and are happy with the surface level adventures and relationships. I'm not, I'd be happier if they went old school fairy tales where the writer has to solve conundrums like.."Wait, there are cannibals in Sleeping Beauty??" Hi, former casual viewer here *waves*. I wish I could better remember what I wanted to see from this show when I mostly just tuned in because I thought it was silly fun and nothing else was on (the nature of casual viewership is that I committed very little to memory), but I think generally: I wanted to see lots of different fairytale characters interacting with each other and the "real" world, I wanted to see really good looking people, I wanted to see those good looking people have relationships I could root for, I wanted mystery to keep me tuning in, I wanted genuinely villainous villains and good guys who were smart enough to defeat them. Things I didn't care about: complicated plots that meant I had to pay more attention, internal consistency, whether relationships made much sense beyond really good chemistry, how bad the CGI was. Things I specifically remember enjoying: The mystery of who August was, Jefferson, Graham, Hook (yes maybe a pattern there), Emma sticking it to Regina, Regina being snarky in return, seeing other worlds, imp Rumple, Emma being the sheriff and getting shit done, Emma and Snow's friendship, Red, Emma finally believing. Things I specifically remember disliking: Greg and Tamara and everything they were involved with (more than anything else; I think I actually almost stopped watching around this plotline), flashback-heavy episodes, the fairies, the Lacey plotline, Rumbelle beyond the actual Beauty and the Beast episode. Then I got suckered in around season three for some reason, and went back and rewatched and had much stronger opinions about everything. Which is a shame, in a way, because it was easier to watch when I didn't really care or analyse. They were simpler times,. So in retrospect, I was pretty happy with surface level relationships and storylines as a casual viewer. But I still, for instance, recall disliking Rumple/Belle because it made Rumple more boring. I think I would've hated Regina/Robin for the same reasons. Link to comment
Jean July 22, 2014 Share July 22, 2014 Camera One I agree and disagree with you about S2 flashbacks. Honestly all I recall about them is that they were just another infinite part in the "Great Victimization of Regina Saga" that was S2. Seriously I don't think it's an exaggeration to say there was not one episode that went by without Woegina crying, whining, making sad the world is ending faces or someone is "victimizing" her. If someone can point to an episode when she appeared in S2 and none of those things happened I will eat my Jimmy Choos. But yes you're right it was one"coherent" picture but it's not a story to me like S1 was. What it was, was an in depth (so in depth, I think they lived on the bottom of the Mariana Trench) character study. S1 was a plot story with character moments. It was about how and why the curse was cast and in getting there we got to see Snow and Charmings falling in love story, the beef between Snow and Evil Queen, and how and why the rest of the cast contributed to the curse, Rumple, Hansel and Gretel, Cinderella, Mad Hatter, Ruby etc. If I got paid I would figure out how to replicate that story structure. I don't think its impossible at all. The people who did get paid decided to write fanfiction instead after S1's payday. Also going back to how S1 was presented I don't think it was ever sold as Emma vs St. Woegina either. I always thought it was about Snow vs. Regina and Emma vs. Rumple, in the sense of Emma the detective unraveling Rumple's games, or cat and mouse story. Snow and Regina was the real conflict and the superior one too. That was the emotional fight. Emma's fights with Regina came off as impersonal despite the Henry thing, until Regina poisoned him. It was always cop vs corrupt politician but most of the time the cop didn't give a crap. She was more involved with her games with Rumple. It was an inferior version of Hannibal and Starling. That's how I saw the focus of S1. Link to comment
Camera One July 22, 2014 Share July 22, 2014 eriously I don't think it's an exaggeration to say there was not one episode that went by without Woegina crying, whining, making sad the world is ending faces or someone is "victimizing" her. If someone can point to an episode when she appeared in S2 and none of those things happened I will eat my Jimmy Choos. But yes you're right it was one"coherent" picture but it's not a story to me like S1 was. I definitely agree with that. In 2A, we were supposed to feel sorry for her because she was trying really hard not to use magic, and there was crying involved in that. So fair enough, I didn't mind her crying if she was making an effort. She finally accepted that Daniel was never coming back. But then in 2B, she played the victimization card, all the while hurting the other characters in various ways by cooperating with Cora. That was when it *really* became disingenious and outright annoying and tiresome. Having Snow kill Cora somehow allowed the writers to claim that Regina was even more the victim. 1 Link to comment
Dani-Ellie July 22, 2014 Share July 22, 2014 (edited) Having Snow kill Cora somehow allowed the writers to claim that Regina was even more the victim. Which I think is such utter horseshit, by the way. (The show's stance, not your point ... I agree with you.) I saw it as the Charmings being in a kill or be killed situation, as I think it was fairly obvious that Regina and Cora weren't going to stop until the Charmings were dead. Most people don't just roll over and let themselves be killed. If Cora and Regina couldn't deal with the ramifications their victims possibly reacting in self-defense, they shouldn't have freakin' gone after them. But no, it's all Snow's fault, because apparently she should have just let these two women kill her and her entire family. Edited July 22, 2014 by Dani-Ellie 7 Link to comment
angelwoody July 22, 2014 Share July 22, 2014 (edited) Which I think is such utter horseshit, by the way. (The show's stance, not your point ... I agree with you.) I saw it as the Charmings being in a kill or be killed situation, as I think it was fairly obvious that Regina and Cora weren't going to stop until the Charmings were dead. Most people don't just roll over and let themselves be killed. If Cora and Regina couldn't deal with the ramifications their victims possibly reacting in self-defense, they shouldn't have freakin' gone after them. But no, it's all Snow's fault, because apparently she should have just let these two women kill her and her entire family. This goes along with the weird line they gave to Regina in the season 3 finale that "Heroes don't kill." That is complete and utter BS. Heroes don't murder, which is entirely different from killing someone in self-defense or in defense of someone else. It is when the writers do things like this - conflating murder with killing in self-defense/ to protect yourself and others who are powerless to protect themselves - that they show a really warped sense of morality within the context of the show. The whole plot point of Snow's heart becoming "dark" because she killed Cora - why? I don't understand the philosophy or reasoning behind the idea that you have to roll over and let yourself be the repeated target of sadists and/ or murderers. That if you do fight back,you must be completely obvious and upfront about it to your abusers or else you're not playing fair or no longer a "hero." It puts my teeth on edge thinking about that BS story line because on another, better written show, it would have been played as a "hell yeah" moment of victory for Snow after so many years of torment and abuse at the hands of Regina and Cora. But noooooo, Snow was the bad guy, apparently. Edited July 22, 2014 by angelwoody 8 Link to comment
KingOfHearts July 22, 2014 Share July 22, 2014 (edited) Going with the "murder vs. killing" thing, I don't think Snow just killed Cora out of self-defense. She did it out of anger, too. She gave self-defense as her reason, which would have been perfectly valid, but Snow wanted to kill Cora out of revenge for killing her mother and making her family's lives miserable. I'm not saying it was wrong for her to kill Cora in self-defense (even Charming said Cora deserved to die), but I believe there was more to it for Snow than just saving everyone else. Her attitude and body language to me showed it was closer to hatred for Cora than love for others. The fact Snow's conscious kept telling her no and she did it anyway, showed she was acting out of emotion. Again, I'm not saying killing Cora was a bad thing, but Snow's intentions were not just self-defense to me. It depends on how you interpret it. I'm not saying that Regina was justified in any way, I just think there was more to Snow murdering Cora than Charming killing some random guard in a rescue. Please note, in my opinion, the dark heart plot was crap and should have never happened. Edited July 22, 2014 by KingOfHearts 1 Link to comment
angelwoody July 22, 2014 Share July 22, 2014 (edited) Going with the "murder vs. killing" thing, I don't think Snow just killed Cora out of self-defense. She did it out of anger, too. She gave self-defense as her reason, which would have been perfectly valid, but Snow wanted to kill Cora out of revenge for killing her mother and making her family's lives miserable. I'm not saying it was wrong for her to kill Cora in self-defense (even Charming said Cora deserved to die), but I believe there was more to it for Snow than just saving everyone else. Her attitude and body language to me showed it was closer to hatred for Cora than love for others. The fact Snow's conscious kept telling her no and she did it anyway, showed she was acting out of emotion. Again, I'm not saying killing Cora was a bad thing, but Snow's intentions were not just self-defense to me. It depends on how you interpret it. I'm not saying that Regina was justified in any way, I just think there was more to Snow murdering Cora than Charming killing some random guard in a rescue. Please note, in my opinion, the dark heart plot was crap and should have never happened. I get what you're saying, KingOfHearts. I guess I just feel like, the fact that her reasons were completely valid is good enough for me, even though she was emotionally motivated as well. She had been threatened, abused and pushed to the limit, understandably. I guess, you could make the argument that she planned it as opposed to doing it in the heat of the moment makes it a bit colder and more calculated. But the thing is, Snow trying anything against Cora in the heat of the moment, without a plan and some subterfuge, would have ended up with her dead. The fact that there was a huge imbalance of power due to Cora's magic makes me more alright with how it went down than I might be if it was a real-world case of a victim planning to kill their abuser. Snow didn't have a lot of the options that someone in the real-world might have had (the police, jail etc.), to deal with such a situation. Her options came down pretty much to kill or be killed along with most if not all of her family and friends. Edited July 22, 2014 by angelwoody Link to comment
stealinghome July 22, 2014 Author Share July 22, 2014 @KingOfHearts, I want to believe that what you're saying is true--but my problem is, what you're saying and what the show keeps telling me are two different things. When they keep talking about how "Snow killing Cora was wrong," they're not saying "Snow killing Cora is okay, but the way she did it isn't." They're not saying "killing in protection of yourself and your loved ones is okay, but only as long as your motives are pure" (which, frankly, I think is horseshit, like "you're only allowed to defend yourself if you have 100% pure motives, but if you don't have 100% pure motives you should just roll over and die"--it's like how Eva was supposedly SO WRONG to reveal Cora's baby daddy deception and save an innocent man from being lied to about a baby's paternity and trapped in a loveless, deceptive marriage--but, okay, whatever, I could kind of roll with that reasoning on a fairytale show). Instead, all the show keeps saying is "Snow killing Cora was wrong." And it keeps coming down on Snow, not for killing Cora in the "wrong way," but for killing Cora at all. And that is what pisses me off, because it's categorically untrue. So if the show wants me to think that it's giving Snow a hard time for having "bad motives" when killing Cora, it needs to start saying that. 5 Link to comment
Recommended Posts