Past Seasons: Classic Who

[Llywela]

City of Death is enormous fun. :)

 

Over the weekend I indulged in Spearhead from Space.  I rather enjoyed the episode!  Being that this episode was done in 1970, I would like to say that it had a really nice b-flick horror type feel to it.  Bravo Doctor Who!

 

Didn't get to see the regeneration, so I guess I gotta go before this episode to see it, cause this one pretty much started with the new Doctor coming out of the Tardis.

 

The story line gave me a much better understanding of the whole Brigadier character, which I think is going to be important somehow to 12's tenure.

 

The Autons were significantly creepy.  The Nesteen Consciousness was a little cheesy, but it had me routing for the Doctor to get out of the mess he was in.

 

Liz Shaw, not sold on her yet as a companion.  Can't believe we didn't get to see the inside of the Tardis!  That was kind of strange, watching a Doctor Who and no inside of the Tardis, oh the horror!

 

All in all, a great watch, thanks for the recommendation.

 

I have seen the movie, so I guess the next one I will watch is Colin Baker and The Twin Dilemma.  I hear it's not all that great, but I am willing to go through this till the end.  If anything, watching the Classics are helping me better understand the New!

Yeah, we don't really see regeneration effects in the modern sense in the 2-3 regeneration - at the end of The War Games (which is a fabulous story, btw, very long but so worth it) the Doctor is sentenced to exile on Earth and forced regeneration, and then we see him yelling and the story ends on a trippy '60s effect of his face in a screen going all wibbly - him falling out of the TARDIS on Earth is the next we see of him, in Spearhead, which is the post-regeneration story. But you didn't take to Liz? Heresy! I adore the dynamic between Liz and the Brigadier in Spearhead from Space - like Mulder and Scully 20 years early!

 

I love the classic series for many reasons, but the extra dimension it brings to the new series is definitely one of them. I love knowing the full history of the character and all the people he's known and loved. I love being able to spot obscure references and parallels. I love being able to trace the development of televisual technology and trends through the 26 years of the classic show. I can usually tell whether someone knows the classic Doctors or the New Who versions only just by the way they talk about the character - knowing his pre-Time War selves brings a very different perspective, it really is striking.

 

Enjoy The Twin Dilemma - I haven't seen it in 20-odd years so you'll have to tell me how you get on!

[BizBuzz]

Ok, Ok ... please notice that I said "Liz Shaw, not sold on her yet as a companion."

 

::giggle::

 

I only have seen her in one episode so far, and I was more taken with the new Doctor than I was with her.  Yes, I can totally see this one is a bit different in that she is a match scientifically with the Doctor, and yes, the snark factor didn't escape my notice.  So I reserve judgement until I get to know her a bit better.

 

Now, something Llywela said that I must agree with 100%:

 

I love the classic series for many reasons, but the extra dimension it brings to the new series is definitely one of them.

 

I am finding that the deeper I go into the Classics, the more I appreciate the series as a whole.  The more I can appreciate what regeneration does, what he had to live through to get where he is today.

 

I did forget to mention a few things in my earlier synopsis of Spearhead from Space ... I was quite taken aback when I saw the naked Doctor taking a shower, and how much of his back side they showed.  This was quite risque for 1970, even in Britain, yes?

 

And, the whole wheelchair scene, HA!  That tickled my funny bone quite a bit. 

 

And the fascination with the eyebrows, HA again!  Has Peter Capaldi mention who his favorite Doctor was?  I know he likes the Classics, but has he mentioned somewhere which one?  After SFS, I wouldn't doubt that it was Three.  That scene was so similar to Deep Breath.

[Mr. Simpatico]

Enjoy The Twin Dilemma - I haven't seen it in 20-odd years so you'll have to tell me how you get on!

 

I don't think JNT wanted to ruin his own product - especially considering Colin Baker was his idea but I can't see how any producer could let something like "The Twin Dilemma" air - especially when its the new Doctor's first full story after a popular Doctor has just left and you know it will be the LAST story (and thus what will remain in viewer's minds) for an entire season/hiatus. It's not just the costume (though that hurt and was another JNT idea - I agree with Eric Saward, the script editor, that it was hard to take Baker's Doctor seriously wearing that) but it was decision to have him vocally trash Peter Davison's Fifth Doctor AND try to kill/choke his companion (it was never explained why exactly Peri continued to travel with him after that). Throw in two twin actors who couldn't act AT ALL as the reason for the plot and you really do have the worst Doctor story ever. C. Baker was screwed from the beginning.

[SnideAsides]

Seriously. At least McCoy's first story was a season premiere (with "Baker" - McCoy in a wig - regenerating right at the start), which allowed it more of a chance to get away with being awful.

[benteen]

I've heard what made the transition even worse was that Peter Davison's last serial was The Caves of Androzani was considered one of, if not the best serial of Classic Who.  To go from that to The Twin Dilemma made such a stark contrast it wasn't even funny.

[BizBuzz]

OMG

 

The Twin Dilemma as about the most painful Doctor Who I have ever watched.  I wanted to quit so many times, but I said, no, I am going to get through this, come hell or high water.  It took me almost a week to get through it.  ::giggle::

 

Six was a mean Doctor.  I will hold out on a final judgement until I see more of him, but what I saw, I am like, no fricken way?  No wonder Doctor Who started declining after that.  It was all the writing, because I think as an actor he was ok, but the writing sucked big time.

 

I felt like I was watching a 70's B Flick.  But it was 1984, it should have been way better made than that.

 

I know the only thing to make it better? 

 

MST2K needs to do this episode (I can wish right???):

 

[Lantern7]

There are good Six stories. I dug "Vengeance on Varos" and "The Mark Of The Rani," and "Revelation of the Daleks" is serviceable even with Peri looking like a blueberry. Still, anytime Doctor Who Magazine does a poll on the greatest stories in the show's history, "The Twin Dilemma" always ends up in last place. My local library system doesn't have it, and I'm not going to seek it out. According to the latest poll, the story with the next lowest score is "Fear Her." I can believe that.

 

While I'm at it . . . here's a list from Topless Robot about how badly Colin Baker got screwed. I think the lesson to be learned is that there are no bad Doctors, only bad writers.

 

As for me . . . I got "Ghost Light" on reserve, as well as the Black Guardian Trilogy (even though I've already seen "Enlightened"). Personally, I feel that most four-part Pertwee or Baker mid-70s stories are a good place to start. The Eighties stuff is skippable, at least to newbies, even though "The Caves Of Androzani" deservedly gets high marks in the polls. As for NewWho: start with "Rose" and/or "The Eleventh Hour" and work forward from there, even through "Fear Her" and "The Rings of Akhaten" (rated #233 out of 241 stories).

[ABay]

Doctor #6 immediately trying to kill Peri is what first endeared him to me. Go with your instincts, honey.

[Mr. Simpatico]

Six was a mean Doctor.  I will hold out on a final judgement until I see more of him, but what I saw, I am like, no fricken way?  No wonder Doctor Who started declining after that.  It was all the writing, because I think as an actor he was ok, but the writing sucked big time.

 

Colin Baker is a good actor. You can tell he's trying to do his best with crappy material and he was the first real superfan of Who who was made the Doctor so his heart was into it. I don't think the show has made a wrong turn in casting the Doctor in Fifty Years, even, as time as shown, McGann in 1996. If you read the history of the TV movie, some of those potential choices would never have worked as well. Though Christopher Lloyd or F. Murray Abraham as the Master over Eric Roberts would have been perfect.

While I'm at it . . . here's a list from Topless Robot about how badly Colin Baker got screwed. I think the lesson to be learned is that there are no bad Doctors, only bad writers.

 

Well there you go. JNT knew the BBC was out to get the show (there was a reason it LOOKED cheap even in comparison to other BBC shows) and his idea that the Sixth Doctor would slowly morph from jerky and obnoxious to caring and soft was ridiculous as Michael Grade and the BBC was never going to give them the time to do it. And the scripts were BAD, Vengeance on Varos was probably as good as it got during the Baker era and yet for half that series the Doctor and Peri weren’t even around.

It was a good idea to have Six be the exact opposite of Five (which is why they should have gone for C. Baker’s idea of a dark suit in comparison to Five’s light cricket outfit) as each regeneration tries to make up for what the previous one was lacking. Five was too human and reserved and…nice. Six was none of those things. But they went about it totally wrong.

Doctor #6 immediately trying to kill Peri is what first endeared him to me. Go with your instincts, honey.

 

Peri’s not that bad. Nicola Bryant is actually a better actress than they let her show (or at least she has become one). She’s played younger Peri and older Peri with different Doctors in the Big Finish audios and they really give her something to do. I was listening to the Big Finish commentary for the audio version of “The Nightmare Fair” which was supposed to be in the aborted 23rd season (and feature the Celestial Toymaker) and the audio’s director was worried N.Bryant might not like it because the script (based on the original 1986 script) has Peri being reactive to events and basically being as useless as she was in the TV show instead of proactive as she is in the recent audios. It just goes to show that the companions really did act that way because of the script (which is Janet Fielding/Tegan's major complaint). Outside of Ace (and possibly Sara Jane), I can't think of a single companion from 3-7 who was given a major developed character arc of their own, they tended to be written out and in based on expediency - which is a shame.

[Lantern7]

I figure that Six was obnoxious as a result of an uncaring universe. Look at the more memorable Five episodes . . . just about everybody dies, and the Doctor is powerless to do anything about it. Adric winds up getting killed, and Tegan gets off after "Resurrection Of The Daleks" because life in the TARDIS wasn't fun anymore. It's amazing Colin Baker didn't come out to heavy smoke and "No More Mr. Nice Guy" blaring in the background.

[BizBuzz]

It was a good idea to have Six be the exact opposite of Five (which is why they should have gone for C. Baker’s idea of a dark suit in comparison to Five’s light cricket outfit) as each regeneration tries to make up for what the previous one was lacking.

 

Call me crazy, but the suit was one thing I really liked.  But then again, I am totally fashion unaware, and retro to boot!  ::giggle::

[Llywela]

The Twin Dilemma has a lousy reputation, so you aren't alone in disliking it, BizBuzz - but Colin Baker is lovely, even if the writing for his Doctor wasn't always. And he does have a few good stories, shining through all the off-screen troubles.

 

I love Peri - it isn't her fault the writing for her era is lousy - it's Mel I struggle with, from this era.

 

If you're still on a regeneration kick, Robot and Castrovalva are both much stronger introductory stories for their Doctors.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Llywela

[Sharpie66]

Both Peri and Mel are on my very-short list of worst companions ever. They both grated on my nerves in the worst way. And yes, most of that was due to the writers, because the characteristics given to both of them are the equivalent of nails on a chalkboard to me.

 

I still love McCoy's Seven, though, even if the quality of the stories had dropped like a stone since JNT came on board. I really should check out more of Seven's DVDs from the library this fall.

[Lantern7]

Have you tried "Remembrance of the Daleks"? Great send-off for the Doctor's arch enemies, it was judged to be the second-best story of the Eighties, and Ace looks good in her debut adventure. Then again, I bet Mel would've looked good smacking a Dalek with a baseball bat.

 

BTW, where would the Doctor or Ace have gotten an aluminum baseball bat? In 1963? It just seems a little off to me.

 

Speaking of Seven . . . I saw at least one person cosplay as him while I was at Fan Expo Canada a few weeks ago. The "Riddler's Uncle" vest full of question marks was hard to miss.

[Llywela]

Have you tried "Remembrance of the Daleks"? Great send-off for the Doctor's arch enemies, it was judged to be the second-best story of the Eighties, and Ace looks good in her debut adventure. Then again, I bet Mel would've looked good smacking a Dalek with a baseball bat.

 

BTW, where would the Doctor or Ace have gotten an aluminum baseball bat? In 1963? It just seems a little off to me.

Ace had the baseball bat in her rucksack, which must have been Gallifreyan 'cause she kept absolutely everything in there! That was part of her character, that she liked to carry stuff like that around with her. Anyway, it was sticking out of her rucksack and the Doctor took it off her to juice it up using the thingummybob - just as well, really, given how useful it turned out to be.

 

Remembrance of the Daleks made a very big impression on me when it came on the telly when I was 11. It was the first story of a new series, and although my mum was a lifelong Doctor Who fan who'd brought us all up on the show, we hadn't watched regularly for a series or two because my mum didn't like Colin Baker's Doctor (the Twin Dilemma put her off - it's a shame she didn't stick with him as I now know he did have some good stories later) and she hadn't been impressed by Sylvester McCoy's debut either. Or maybe she didn't like Mel. I'm not sure. It's possible we had other stuff on and simply couldn't always get home to watch the show. So anyway, we hadn't watched regularly for a couple of years. And then the new series started, with this promising new companion, so we watched it. And never mind the Doctor - Ace made a huge impression on me, beating up Daleks with baseball bats and jumping through windows to escape and blowing up Daleks with rocket launchers! Heady stuff to an impressionable 11 year old! I think that was the moment I made the transition from 'kid who watches Doctor Who when I can just because we always have and its fun' to 'fan'. We watched religiously from then on - sadly only for two series and then it was gone.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Llywela

[Sharpie66]

Yeah, Ace is definitely in my top three companions from the Classic era (along with Sarah Jane and Tegan), mostly on the wonderfulness that was Remembrance of the Daleks, because I didn't see as much of the rest of the series before it went off the air. I've actually just added RotD to my Amazon Wish List (along with The Five Doctors so I can get all of the extras, including the easter egg commentary track that I've heard is on it.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Sharpie66

[Llywela]

Remembrance of the Daleks was the first Doctor Who adventure I bought on DVD when they started coming out, way back before the new show was a twinkle in Russell Davies' eye, closely followed by Ghost Light and The Curse of Fenric. And then The Ark in Space, which aired almost 3 years before I was born but which we'd had on VHS when I was growing up and I always loved it (still do). Ah, memories!

 

And now all these years later I'm still collecting classic adventures on DVD, in fits and starts - one day I will have them all!

Edited September 11, 2014 by Llywela

[Lantern7]

I'd only recommend "The Five Doctors" to somebody who's seen the classic version of the show. I think it was judged to be the fourth-best story of the Eighties, and I think it holds up well, even with the continuity hiccups, the Master's failures, and "not the mind probe." Remember to get the "Special Edition," as opposed to the bare bones DVD put out in the US in 2001 (I think it was this day thirteen years ago). That has all the bells and whistles, including the Easter egg commentary and the various extras. There was actually a parade to celebrate the show's 20th anniversary, and you get footage of that.

[tv-talk]

Wouldnt Ace be considered a terrorist in this day and age? I seem to remember her carrying on around homemade explosives because she was kind of an anarchist or something? It's just interesting how times change, so to speak.

 

Sylvester McCoy's Doctor is when I stopped watching, apparently with everybody else. I should definitely go back and see a few....would not surprise me to find I like them more than I thought.

 

Mel drove me nuts on several levels, but mainly that they had her wearing worst outfits to ever appear on the show!

I think it was judged to be the fourth-best story of the Eighties

 

 

So where can I find this best episode list? Was it done by fan polling?

[Llywela]

I'd only recommend "The Five Doctors" to somebody who's seen the classic version of the show. I think it was judged to be the fourth-best story of the Eighties

Really? I mean...don't get me wrong, I absolutely adore The Five Doctors, I love it for what it is, a nostalgia-soaked romp and a chance to catch a glimpse of a few well-loved characters, but as a story it has a lot wrong with it - the plot is paper-thin and riddled with holes, most of the characters are caricatures (and out of character), it completely wastes most of the returnees...but then again, it was never intended to do most of the things I wish it did. It was designed as a fun romp to celebrate the anniversary and it did just that. And I love it in spite of its flaws!

 

I wouldn't recommend it to a newbie, though, no - it wouldn't give them an accurate impression either of the show or of the characters.

 

Wouldnt Ace be considered a terrorist in this day and age? I seem to remember her carrying on around homemade explosives because she was kind of an anarchist or something? It's just interesting how times change, so to speak.

 

Sylvester McCoy's Doctor is when I stopped watching, apparently with everybody else. I should definitely go back and see a few....would not surprise me to find I like them more than I thought.

 

Mel drove me nuts on several levels, but mainly that they had her wearing worst outfits to ever appear on the show!

I wouldn't call Ace a terrorist, no. An anarchist, maybe. She just really loved explosives. But she never used her explosives against political targets, which would be the definition of terrorism. She was just a kid experimenting with fireworks on a larger scale - and working through some personal issues with anger!

 

Mel's costumes were not great, no - although that polka dot ensemble she wears in Paradise Towers was bang on trend for the '80s, I had a disco dress just like it but in black rather than blue! As Lis Sladen observes in the commentary to The Five Doctors, the '80s weren't kind to anyone! The trouble with the character wasn't the clothes, it was the lack of a) a coherent origin story to establish the character and her relationship with the Doctor, b) a clearly defined and consistent personality, and c) proper direction. Mel was not well written and Bonnie Langford was pretty much left hanging - the backstory she'd been given bore little resemblance to the actual character written, she had no clear personality coming through in the scripts to allow her to get a handle on her character, and she'd spent more of her career in the theatre than on television, so when the directors failed to give her a helpful steer, she fell back on what she knew from the theatre, which was to go large, overplaying the character. She did her best with woeful material, but it just didn't work. I understand Big Finish have done wonders with the character, salvaging her marvellously - I must listen to some of her audios when I get a chance.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Llywela

[Danny Franks]

Colin Baker is a good actor. You can tell he's trying to do his best with crappy material and he was the first real superfan of Who who was made the Doctor so his heart was into it. I don't think the show has made a wrong turn in casting the Doctor in Fifty Years, even, as time as shown, McGann in 1996. If you read the history of the TV movie, some of those potential choices would never have worked as well. Though Christopher Lloyd or F. Murray Abraham as the Master over Eric Roberts would have been perfect.

 

 

Even as a young child (6 or 7), I thought Colin Baker's Doctor was creepy and unsettling. I don't know now whether it was the writing or the acting, but I just never took to him at all. Bonnie Langford was pretty terrible as a companion as well. I'm not sure anything could have saved him, in my eyes.

 

Remembrance of the Daleks made a very big impression on me when it came on the telly when I was 11. It was the first story of a new series, and although my mum was a lifelong Doctor Who fan who'd brought us all up on the show, we hadn't watched regularly for a series or two because my mum didn't like Colin Baker's Doctor (the Twin Dilemma put her off - it's a shame she didn't stick with him as I now know he did have some good stories later) and she hadn't been impressed by Sylvester McCoy's debut either. Or maybe she didn't like Mel. I'm not sure. It's possible we had other stuff on and simply couldn't always get home to watch the show. So anyway, we hadn't watched regularly for a couple of years. And then the new series started, with this promising new companion, so we watched it. And never mind the Doctor - Ace made a huge impression on me, beating up Daleks with baseball bats and jumping through windows to escape and blowing up Daleks with rocket launchers! Heady stuff to an impressionable 11 year old! I think that was the moment I made the transition from 'kid who watches Doctor Who when I can just because we always have and its fun' to 'fan'. We watched religiously from then on - sadly only for two series and then it was gone.

 

 

I was talking about Remembrance of the Daleks on the previous page. This story has to be the quintessential childhood Doctor Who, for me. It was just an absolutely great ride, with Dalek vs Dalek, Ace being cool and rebellious (I think she may have been one of my first crushes, before I even understood what a crush was), 60s London and the great combination of the mundane urban and the scifi craziness.

 

I did love those Renegade and Imperial Daleks, and their contrasting colour schemes. I was never a fan of red and blue and yellow as Dalek colours (at least, they were in the Peter Cushing movie). Too bright and garish for Daleks, if you ask me. But grey and white? Yeah, they worked.

[Llywela]

Even as a young child (6 or 7), I thought Colin Baker's Doctor was creepy and unsettling. I don't know now whether it was the writing or the acting, but I just never took to him at all. Bonnie Langford was pretty terrible as a companion as well. I'm not sure anything could have saved him, in my eyes.

You might feel differently if you try watching him again now. I grew up disliking the Colin Baker Doctor - my mum didn't like him, he'd been obnoxious and murderous when he first regenerated, he wore a garish coat...we stopped watching the show while he was in the hot seat, started watching intermittently when Sylvester McCoy took over, but didn't start watching again properly until Ace came along. So I kind of automatically disliked C.Baker's Doctor all my life without really thinking about it, without having seen more than a handful of his episodes, way back as a child.

 

And then in the last year or two, when I began collecting classic DVDs in earnest, I revisited him - with reluctance, but I felt I 'owed' it to this much-maligned Doctor to give him a chance. And I was surprised. Because sure, his era has some awful writing and horrific costuming and was made on a budget of about 50p, but there are also some really good stories tucked away in there and Colin Baker can be an absolute delight. His abrasive relationship with Peri takes some getting used to, but there's a lot of affection there as well as the bickering, and Peri's a stronger character than most people give her credit for. Try The Mark of the Rani - I've come to really love that one, and I never thought I would. I enjoyed the Trial of a Timelord season, as well.

[tv-talk]

Mels costumes epitomized the problem with her character- over the top and annoying. Whether that was the writing, the actress, I don't claim to know but someone thought it was a good idea to dress her up like that and have her basically run around screaming (as i recall it anyway, havent seen a 6 episode in YEARS).

 

Rani and Trial of a Timelord were definitely Colin Baker episodes that I liked, going to have to watch them again.

[benteen]

The Twin Dilemma has a lousy reputation, so you aren't alone in disliking it, BizBuzz - but Colin Baker is lovely, even if the writing for his Doctor wasn't always. And he does have a few good stories, shining through all the off-screen troubles.

 

I love Peri - it isn't her fault the writing for her era is lousy - it's Mel I struggle with, from this era.

 

If you're still on a regeneration kick, Robot and Castrovalva are both much stronger introductory stories for their Doctors.

 

I just watched Castrovalva the other day, making my first foray into the Fifth Doctor era.  I have to admit I wasn't a big fan of it.  It wasn't awful or anything but I found the plot to be really convoluted (particularly the Master's plan) and the Fifth Doctor isn't at 100% throughout the episode.  I do have a few more Fifth Doctor episodes I plan to watch after this and I look forward to it.

 

The two serials before Castrovalva, featuring the Fourth Doctor, I did enjoy.  The Kreeper of Traken and Logopolis.  I watched 17 of the 4th Doctor serials and I have to say I enjoyed the Tom Baker years the best.  There might have been some that weren't that great but Baker never disappointed in the role.  On the subject of debut serials, I did enjoy Robot.  It wasn't perfect and was really a 3rd Doctor tale but it's a great debut episode for the Fourth Doctor, who immediately jells with Sarah Jane.  Harry is introduced and it's one of the last serials where the Brigadier was featured regularly and he's quite good in that.

 

Speaking of the later 4th Doctor Who episodes, I'll probably get some flack for this but I honestly didn't think the Adric character was that bad.  Then again, Wesley Crusher never bothered me either.  The biggest problem I saw with Adric is that he tended to kind of redundant when he was around Fourth Doctor and Baker's amazing presence completely swallowed him up. 

 

I don't think I'll be watching much from the Sixth Doctor era but looking forward to eventually watching the Seventh Doctor and Ace.

[Lantern7]

Llywela . . . yeah, the story placed 25th overall, fourth-best of the Eighties.

 

tv-talk . . . it was a fan poll in Doctor Who Magazine #474. The best story was judged to be "The Day Of The Doctor," followed by "Blink," "Genesis Of The Daleks," "The Caves of Androzani" (the former #1) and "City of Death." Tom Baker edged out Matt Smith for "Favourite Doctor," Elisabeth Sladen won "Favourite Companion" by a sizable margin over Catherine Tate, and Verity Lambert beat out RTD for "Special Contribution."

[BizBuzz]

If you're still on a regeneration kick, Robot and Castrovalva are both much stronger introductory stories for their Doctors.

 

I am, and per your advice, I am watching Robot now ... Castrovalva I already commented on earlier in the thread. 

 

In just the 10 minutes I have watched, I am already in love.  ::giggle::

 

No, Doctor, I'm the doctor, and I say you're not fit! ... You may be a doctor. But I'm the Doctor. The definite article, you might say.

 

^That was funny!

[benteen]

I am, and per your advice, I am watching Robot now ... Castrovalva I already commented on earlier in the thread. 

 

In just the 10 minutes I have watched, I am already in love.  ::giggle::

 

No, Doctor, I'm the doctor, and I say you're not fit! ... You may be a doctor. But I'm the Doctor. The definite article, you might say.

 

^That was funny!

 

Another great scene is the deadpan look the Brigadier gives The Doctor when he's discussing who has the launch codes.

 

From what I've read about Ace's character, I don't think a bomb-loving teenager would fly in today's climate.

 

 

If you read the history of the TV movie, some of those potential choices would never have worked as well. Though Christopher Lloyd or F. Murray Abraham as the Master over Eric Roberts would have been perfect.

 

I have to admit, I found Eric Roberts so over the top as the Master that he was really funny.  Miscast for the role, definitely.  But it works for me.

 

I liked the TV movie too, particularly McGann's Doctor.  I watched that before I saw any of the Classic Who.

Edited September 12, 2014 by benteen

[Llywela]

I just watched Castrovalva the other day, making my first foray into the Fifth Doctor era.  I have to admit I wasn't a big fan of it.  It wasn't awful or anything but I found the plot to be really convoluted (particularly the Master's plan) and the Fifth Doctor isn't at 100% throughout the episode.  I do have a few more Fifth Doctor episodes I plan to watch after this and I look forward to it.

 

The two serials before Castrovalva, featuring the Fourth Doctor, I did enjoy.  The Kreeper of Traken and Logopolis.  I watched 17 of the 4th Doctor serials and I have to say I enjoyed the Tom Baker years the best.  There might have been some that weren't that great but Baker never disappointed in the role.  On the subject of debut serials, I did enjoy Robot.  It wasn't perfect and was really a 3rd Doctor tale but it's a great debut episode for the Fourth Doctor, who immediately jells with Sarah Jane.  Harry is introduced and it's one of the last serials where the Brigadier was featured regularly and he's quite good in that.

 

Speaking of the later 4th Doctor Who episodes, I'll probably get some flack for this but I honestly didn't think the Adric character was that bad.  Then again, Wesley Crusher never bothered me either.  The biggest problem I saw with Adric is that he tended to kind of redundant when he was around Fourth Doctor and Baker's amazing presence completely swallowed him up. 

 

I don't think I'll be watching much from the Sixth Doctor era but looking forward to eventually watching the Seventh Doctor and Ace.

I quite like Castrovalva - it represents such a definite break from who the Fourth Doctor had been and allows his two new companions, Nyssa and Tegan, to bond in the spotlight, as it were. They've been thrown together, have both been through the mill in Logopolis with no way of escaping the weird situation they are now in, and they cope admirably. And Robot I love - it isn't the strongest plot ever, but again, it's a bridging story, it's the Fourth Doctor in a Third Doctor story and as such represents a break from who the predecessor had been, his style is so immediately and obviously different. I love seeing the UNIT family properly for the last time (we do see them again after that, but not for ages and it's not quite the same). And I love Harry to bits.

 

I quite like Adric, too - although the concept and intention rather more than the final product. Matthew Waterhouse was very young and inexperienced and it shows - his acting is awful at times. But Adric as a character makes perfect sense to me - he's a teenage boy, sometimes sweet sometimes obnoxious, looking for direction; he latches onto the Fourth Doctor as a mentor/father figure only for him to regenerate into the Fifth, who had no interest in playing that role, leaving him floundering, competing for attention with Nyssa and Tegan also in the TARDIS. And then he dies, rather tragically - I was five when that aired, and I remember growing up with the memory of the shock of it. There were no spoilers back then to soften the blow, and also no 'takesie backsies', as the Eleventh Doctor would have it. Dead was dead.

 

For everyone who thinks they will struggle with the Sixth Doctor and is reluctant to watch much of his era, I recommend The Mark of the Rani - it's a strong story featuring three Time Lords all working at cross purposes, it's got some engaging guest characters, not Peri's best but she does get to make use of her training as a botanist, and the Sixth Doctor is just lovely here - still arrogant and overbearing and argumentative, but also passionate about the lives he's defending, and caring and loyal, and he has some lovely little moments with Peri. One of his best.

[Llywela]

Wouldnt Ace be considered a terrorist in this day and age? I seem to remember her carrying on around homemade explosives because she was kind of an anarchist or something? It's just interesting how times change, so to speak.

Sorry to come back to this, it's been playing on my mind a bit as I've never seen anyone make this judgement/equivalence before and it kind of threw me - and bear in mind there that Ace may have come from a pre-9/11 age, but she was a character on British television in the 1980s, at the height of the Irish Troubles, when the IRA were actively blowing up targets both in Ireland and mainland England, so terrorism may not have been on American minds at the time, but it certainly was over here. But to focus on that one element of Ace's character bio, the fact that she liked messing around with chemicals and watching them go bang, kind of misses the point of who she was - and equating that with terrorism definitely misses the point. I get the impression you've not really watched her stuff, as you say you stopped watching when Sylvester McCoy came along? You might want to try a few of her stories now, to see what you make of her.

 

The thing about Ace is that she was designed very much as an Angry Teenager of the '80s variety - a mixed-up kid with a lot of unfocused anger that she didn't know what to do with. Her love of explosives was intended as a character quirk that the kids would enjoy and which would send a clear message that this girl was a badass who wouldn't scream when she saw a monster but would chuck a can of nitro-9 at it and blow it up, marking a clear contrast with her much-criticised predecessors Mel and Peri, who fell far more into the stereotypical damsel in distress mold. She was rebellious, argumentative and hot-tempered, with a lot of emotional vulnerability beneath that tough exterior - she was a very modern character, in fact, and her story wouldn't look out of place in the modern show...even if it would be told very differently now!

[tv-talk]

Yeah I'm very well aware of what was going on in Britain at that time which is why in hindsight I thought it interesting that she was carrying around homemade explosives. Why exactly? 

 

An Angry Teenager carrying around homemade explosives might not go over as a hero so well in this day and age is what I meant, not that I took Ace to be a terrorist or anarchist at the time. 

Edited September 12, 2014 by tv-talk

[Llywela]

Yeah I'm very well aware of what was going on in Britain at that time which is why in hindsight I thought it interesting that she was carrying around homemade explosives. Why exactly?

Because she liked messing around with chemicals and watching them go bang. I don't think there's much deeper motivation going on there at all, certainly not on the part of the writers! She's definitely an unusual character to sit in the role of hero/Doctor Who companion - she does admit to blowing up the art room in school! She set fire to a house, too. I suppose we could argue that she channels her anger/emotional issues into the use of explosives/fire, which is interesting, psychologically speaking. She doesn't feel she's had much control over her life, but her mastery of explosives gives her a degree of control, it's something she enjoys and is good at. And destroying things makes her feel better. More or less. Something like that. And from the writers' point of view, it allowed them to write scenes where Ace blasts a way through an obstruction or blows up an alien spaceship, which both delights the watching children and allows the female companion to be pro-active and resourceful, a reaction against the criticism of more passive characters like Mel and Peri. I think that's all it was.

 

I doubt we'd see a character like her on telly today - but then again, modern television has cast serial killers as the heroes of shows, and fans latch onto villains and anti-heroes all the time, so maybe someone like Ace isn't so outrageous after all!

[Sharpie66]

And I love Harry to bits.

 

 

I was 14 years old when I first watched DW in 1980, and when my PBS station started re-running the beginning of Four's era, I developed a huge crush on Ian Marter! It was sad that he died so young, on his 42nd birthday in 1986.

[Llywela]

I was 14 years old when I first watched DW in 1980, and when my PBS station started re-running the beginning of Four's era, I developed a huge crush on Ian Marter! It was sad that he died so young, on his 42nd birthday in 1986.

You're singing my tune there! We had a whole bunch of Fourth Doctor serials on VHS when I was growing up, including most of season 12, and I can remember loving Harry back then. And then I came back to the classic show as an adult, all these years later - and bam, there's that old crush again! :D Ian Marter's premature death was terribly sad. :( I've got the Myth Makers interview he recorded, in it he talks about his plans for the future and it's awful, knowing that he died only a few weeks later.

Edited September 12, 2014 by Llywela

[tv-talk]

Where do you folks watch Classic Who, if I might ask? Speaking of Harry, I was trying to watch the Sontaran Experiment on Hulu last night and there were commercials every 5mins- awful! Are they available for streaming or download somewhere I've missed? 

[tv-talk]

Genesis of the Daleks is first series I can remember watching, was instantly hooked along with a generation of fans apparently.

[Mr. Simpatico]

I liked the TV movie too, particularly McGann's Doctor.  I watched that before I saw any of the Classic Who.

 

The TV movie was my first exposure to Dr. Who as a kid and even though it ran only once I never forgot it. If you watch it now you can see too many people had their hands in it. Fox, BBC, Universal and Philip Segal, the British-born Hollywood producer was a Who fan and fought years to get it back on the air. It was he who insisted that Sylvester McCoy come for a regeneration scene (something McCoy says now was a mistake and they should have started with McGann and saved the regeneration - via flashback or something - for a later date). The BBC apparently wanted Tom Baker to make the transistion - which made no sense. And the hiring of a name American actor for The Master was because Fox demanded it (as was the whole half-human thing) and Universal (who produced it) kept wanting to get rid of it and Segal was desperately trying to get another studio/network interested even at the last minute.

 

But you can see parts of it that was inspired and even superior to NuWho. McGann (who was always Segal's first choice) was inspired casting, the steampunk TARDIS interior still has never looked better, the cinematography and direction was a huge step up from the BBC and even the "companions" (if you can call them that), Daphne Ashbrook and Yee Jee Tso could have easily continued on if it had gone to series (and indeed both actors still do Who stuff like Big Finish). A wasted opportunity, mostly because they tried to fashion it to what they THOUGHT what an American audience would want (and Fox put it in a horrible timeslot) and it didn't do well (in the US at least, big ratings elsewhere).

 

Speaking of Ace, ironically it was suggested she be brought back along with McCoy for the TV-movie and the BBC just said no. Sophie Allred has even commented she doesn't think (still) that the BBC liked Ace at all.

 

She did her best with woeful material, but it just didn't work. I understand Big Finish have done wonders with the character, salvaging her marvellously - I must listen to some of her audios when I get a chance.

 

Big Finish has done wonders with a lot of the former companions. That at least is the influence of NuWho, which has put the spotlight on them rather than the Doctor.

 

Even as a young child (6 or 7), I thought Colin Baker's Doctor was creepy and unsettling. I don't know now whether it was the writing or the acting, but I just never took to him at all. Bonnie Langford was pretty terrible as a companion as well. I'm not sure anything could have saved him, in my eyes.

 

When a Doctor tries to kill his companion within the first serial of his run and they never really confront that it happened (by the following season its like it never happened) you can never really get past it. I still don't get how JNT and the writers thought that was a good idea.

 

Bonnie Langford is a professional actress (all her life) and she was given one of the most interesting introductions in all of Who. It should have gone somewhere. She met the Doctor before he met her. They first saw each other out of order (in other words Moffat copied it for River Song without all the obsession/"romance" stuff with the Doctor). Of course with Colin Baker's firing they never could show Mel's origin story. And by the time her first full season with McCoy came around, we're supposed to assume the Doctor's relationship with her is well established. Then by mid-season (in a season with only 4 serials) Langford wanted to leave and so "Delta and the Bannermen" (with Ray) and "Dragonfire" (with Ace) were basically auditions for OTHER actresses to replace her as companion. So I don't think Mel stood a chance even given the poor writing.

Edited September 12, 2014 by Mr. Simpatico

[alias1]

Where do you folks watch Classic Who, if I might ask? Speaking of Harry, I was trying to watch the Sontaran Experiment on Hulu last night and there were commercials every 5mins- awful! Are they available for streaming or download somewhere I've missed? 

I would also like to know where people are watching or buying Classic Who.  I saw on the BBC website (UK) some of the classic episodes for sale, but they don't seem to be available in the US.  Where can I get them?  For some reason I'd really like to see the episodes involving The Rani and Trial of a Time Lord.

Edited September 12, 2014 by SierraMist

[Sharpie66]

A lot of libraries have many of the dvds available.

[Lantern7]

That's how I got into the show . . . by going through the DVDs and VHS tapes, back when the latter were available from my library's system. I also won VHS copies of "The Sun Makers" and "Delta and the Bannermen" at a scavenger hunt. Please tell me I'm not the only person that uses a VCR on a regular basis.

 

I've only seen The Rani in "The Mark of the Rani," and I figure that the character wouldn't jibe well with any talk that Missy is her. I heard "Time and the Rani" is missable, especially with The Rani taking advantage of a post-regeneration-addled Doctor by dressing as Mel. That was either cringeworthy or hysterical.

 

ETA: I liked Ace. Even with the explosives and the shouting of "ACE!," I can see how she'd be the definitive companion of her time. I liked watching "Silver Nemesis," where the Doctor's asking her whether she packed the Nitro-9, and she's all, "Why would I do that? I'm a good girl," and the Doctor's all, "Right . . . .blow up the Cybermen ship," and she smiles and runs off.

[tv-talk]

Just got finished watching Sontaran Experiment, definitely enjoyed and very representative of the overall quality associated with '70s Doctor Who. Harry and Sarah their usual stalwart selves and good supporting work. Baker great as always, really pulls to fore Doctor's ability to be forceful and control situations with sheer force of personality despite being captured, unarmed, and surrounded by soldiers with guns. THAT'S the Doctor. The closing scene is great too, classic Who indeed.

 

Hulu puts most of the ads in first 30mins or so, after that it's not so bad.

[BizBuzz]

I am watching most Classic Who on either Hulu Plus or on Amazon Prime.  Always watch out for Netflix, they take some off and put some others back on.  I also live near a huge Air Force Base that has an extensive collection at the library.  That is where I found Robot which I am watching now.

[Llywela]

Where do you folks watch Classic Who, if I might ask? Speaking of Harry, I was trying to watch the Sontaran Experiment on Hulu last night and there were commercials every 5mins- awful! Are they available for streaming or download somewhere I've missed? 

Well, I mostly watch on DVD - I've been slowly amassing a very large collection over a period of years and still don't have them all! I also rent DVDs from lovefilm. And when all else fails there are (whispers) torrents. It's getting harder and harder to find classic serials to watch online - daily motion used to have them all, but they got pulled, another streaming site got pulled - they seem to be clamping down. Which I can understand for material that might make them a profit, but I can't see any reason to pull fan-made reconstructions of missing episodes.

 

Unless of course the rumours are true, but that way lies madness.

 

The TV movie was my first exposure to Dr. Who as a kid and even though it ran only once I never forgot it. If you watch it now you can see too many people had their hands in it. Fox, BBC, Universal and Philip Segal, the British-born Hollywood producer was a Who fan and fought years to get it back on the air. It was he who insisted that Sylvester McCoy come for a regeneration scene (something McCoy says now was a mistake and they should have started with McGann and saved the regeneration - via flashback or something - for a later date). The BBC apparently wanted Tom Baker to make the transistion - which made no sense. And the hiring of a name American actor for The Master was because Fox demanded it (as was the whole half-human thing) and Universal (who produced it) kept wanting to get rid of it and Segal was desperately trying to get another studio/network interested even at the last minute.

 

But you can see parts of it that was inspired and even superior to NuWho. McGann (who was always Segal's first choice) was inspired casting, the steampunk TARDIS interior still has never looked better, the cinematography and direction was a huge step up from the BBC and even the "companions" (if you can call them that), Daphne Ashbrook and Yee Jee Tso could have easily continued on if it had gone to series (and indeed both actors still do Who stuff like Big Finish). A wasted opportunity, mostly because they tried to fashion it to what they THOUGHT what an American audience would want (and Fox put it in a horrible timeslot) and it didn't do well (in the US at least, big ratings elsewhere).

I was a teenager by the time the TV Movie came along, and I'd grown up as a Doctor Who fan in a family of Doctor Who fans - my mum was 12 when the show began and always loved it.  I remember how excited we were when the TV Movie was announced, how avidly we followed the production news in sci fi magazines and the like. The actual production...wasn't all it could have been. But we loved McGann's Doctor and TARDIS, and Grace was great and Chang Lee had loads of potential. I tend to gloss over the weaker spots and love it for the potential I can see there.

 

I've seen some of the ideas they had for it it had gone to series and those ideas sound awful, so part of me is glad it never happened - but I still regret that McGann never got a full series on TV as the Doctor. I've listened to a bunch of his audios and they are fab. The minisode he filmed for the anniversary was fab. I want more!

[benteen]

It's a shame McGann never got to do more shows but it's a good think that TV movie failed because Fox would have continued to co-own it.  Doctor Who is British and should stay that way.

[Casual Viewing]

Mels costumes epitomized the problem with her character- over the top and annoying. Whether that was the writing, the actress, I don't claim to know but someone thought it was a good idea to dress her up like that and have her basically run around screaming (as i recall it anyway, havent seen a 6 episode in YEARS).

Rani and Trial of a Timelord were definitely Colin Baker episodes that I liked, going to have to watch them again.

Mel ruined (for me) most episodes and you stated exactly why, it's a shame we can't edit out and replace her with one of our preferred companions. :-)

I really felt bad for Colin Baker. He got stuck with bad stories, a horrid costume, and dismal companions. I do however, love him in The Two Doctors! I know some feel the story is a mess and grisly but it had Jamie and Two and Shockeye! It is the only DVD with Six that I own and watch.

Add me to the list who think McGann is an excellent Doctor. That mini episode only served to make me want more of his Doctor on my screen. I've rewatched that so many times!

Edited September 13, 2014 by Casual Viewing

[Lantern7]

I wouldn't recommend "The Two Doctors" to newbies. You got messy continuity, tall Sontarans, and the (Second) Doctor accompanying Shockeye to a stabbing. I think you have to learn more about Two and Six before checking it out. However, I'm half-convinced that Six's retroactive craving for cat meat might have inspired ALF, which debuted the following year. Also: it's kind of a shame that there's no scene where you see Peri through Shockeye's eyes, as she transforms into a giant steak with bare legs and high heels.

 

Out of curiosity, what are your favorite DVD extras from the show's range? I just dug up the movie and looked through the "Wilderness Years" feature, as well as a history of the Eighth Doctor's comic strip adventures . . . including a glimpse of Nine waking up in Eight's clothes, which wasn't put into continuity.

[Mr. Simpatico]

. . including a glimpse of Nine waking up in Eight's clothes, which wasn't put into continuity.

 

I think Davies wanted us to think Nine regenerated from Eight (and one of the first episodes of NuWho I think has a "photo" of Nine in Eight's outfit). The War Doctor was invented because Moffat couldn't get Ecclestone to come back for the 50th. I know most Whovians (myself included) always thought it was Eight who ended the Time War and they just should have had McGann play the "War Doctor" but listening to Moffat talk about how he doesn't think Eight could commit genocide (even if the Big Finish audios are clearly making McGann's Doctor darker as the Time War approaches) I'm now inclined to agree with him.

 

And yes, as much as we talk about how Colin Baker was shafted - at least he got two full seasons. McGann clearly had a handle on the Doctor Who role from the get-go but had a TV movies (in which he was only in just over an hour). I do worry that the Fox version of it would have been terrible but I think given the big ratings in the UK, the BBC should have just transferred the show with McGann to the UK, bought out Fox's share of the ownership of the Doctor (although do they own him? - it hasn't stopped the BBC from making a mint in merchandising of books, comics. etc off the 8th Doctor for 20 years) and made a new series for a British-orientated audience with McGann.

 

"The Night of the Doctor" was glorious (even if only because it made 8's Big Finish companions TV canon) and showed McGann could STILL easily play the Doctor in live-action today and given they had him regenerate at his current age there would none of the "they look too old" naysaying of the other living ex-Doctors. I could easily see say "Dark Eyes" or 8's adventures with Lucie Miller (and Susan! that other character Moffat seems to have forgotten that the Doctor said he would "return" to) being made into live-action. Moffat says he doesn't think the audience would understand if there were 2 different Doctors running around with their own series (neglecting Torchwood and the Sara Jane Adventures canons were also confusing with the main show) but I think that's a cop out. Audiences aren't that dumb - they know the difference between 8 and 12.

[Sharpie66]

The Two Doctors is probably the only Colin Baker ep that I remember at all. I really liked it, especially seeing Patrick Troughton hanging out with Shockeye. IIRC, that was originally supposed to be filmed in New Orleans, but they couldn't get the funding to film in the States, so they went with Seville instead.

Edited September 15, 2014 by Sharpie66

[ketose]

Colin Baker is a good actor. You can tell he's trying to do his best with crappy material and he was the first real superfan of Who who was made the Doctor so his heart was into it. I don't think the show has made a wrong turn in casting the Doctor in Fifty Years, even, as time as shown, McGann in 1996. If you read the history of the TV movie, some of those potential choices would never have worked as well. Though Christopher Lloyd or F. Murray Abraham as the Master over Eric Roberts would have been perfect.

From what I understand, Eric Roberts also had disparaging things to say about Doctor Who as a whole, and for that he can kiss my ass. Eric Roberts is most famous for doing a parade of the worst movies, almost all of which he should be embarrassed about being in.

 

After seeing some interviews with Colin Baker, I decided to Netflix the DVDs for "Trial of a Time Lord" including the extra commentaries. The commentaries are amazing because they really tell the story of how the BBC was trying to kill Who and the writer who actually died writing the 23rd season. Even with all the difficulties, I find Trial to be the best multi-part Who story to date and the opening title sequence to be about as cool as you could get for the budget.

[Lantern7]

Just went through "Talking About Regeneration" on "The War Games." Anybody else feel sorry for Sylvester McCoy? They showed his Doctor getting shot and falling over six times. It was hilarious, but it was such a shitty way to go. Not nearly as shitty as Sylvester as "Colin Baker" (quotation marks from the documentary, not me), but pretty shitty.

 

What did you think the best regeneration was? I'd lean towards the Eccleston-to-Tennant change, because RTD didn't drag that out the way he did with Tennant-to-Smith, which lasted for-freakin'-ever. And I liked how sudden Smith-to-Capaldi was. Somebody compared it to a British Christmas "cracker," where we don't know if we get a treat or a joke.

[ketose]

From the original series, Tom Baker to Peter Davison was pretty drawn out, just because Four was so popular they wanted more of a send off. Davison to Colin Baker was kind of similar to the Tennant one because it implied that the Doctor could actually die instead of regenerate. In some ways, that was also the most dramatic regeneration because Colin Baker was straight up violent when he woke up.