S01.E02: Show And Prove

[numbnut]

9 hours ago, Mileman said:

Anyone that was around back then, was NY really that shitty?

I went to school in Chelsea and remember seeing regular movies (Platoon! Purple Rain! The Lost Boys!) in Times Square in the 80s. The area was trashier than other parts of the city but not so sketchy and scummy that only criminals hung out there. It was still a tourist trap.

[Milburn Stone]

1 hour ago, Gobi said:

42nd Street was the porn capitol of the world back then. Think of it as a live version of the  internet.

Funny you should mention the internet, because the internet just came up for me when I was thinking about how permanent the porny nature of 42nd St. seemed back in the seventies. Yet how permanent it wasn't.

Here's the analogy. Imagine that, entrenched and permanent a part of our lives as the internet is today, a few years from now people are going to stop using the internet altogether and go back to reading print newspapers and clothbound books exclusively! Crazy? Unthinkable? That's how crazy and unthinkable it was that 42nd St. would become where The Lion King was playing.

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, numbnut said:

I went to school in Chelsea and remember seeing regular movies (Platoon! Purple Rain! The Lost Boys!) in Times Square in the 80s. The area was trashier than other parts of the city but not so sketchy and scummy that only criminals hung out there. It was still a tourist trap.

I think you can see that in the show. If you look at the marquees there's porn theaters next to theaters showing really good regular movies.

[LilaFowler]

I think I love this show.

That said, I find Margarita Levieva's looks and mannerisms to be very anachronistic. I'll be watching the show, completely immersed in grimy 1971 NYC porn and hooking and it's glorious, and then she strolls in from another decade, yanking me out of it. It's also slightly annoying how the stars constantly align for her. I feel like I shouldn't be so irritated by a supporting character this early in the show.

[dd21dd21]

At first I didn't want to give this show a chance but Im honestly interested in nearly every character so far..

I wanted to like CC but he's an asshole ( I honestly believed the bs he was feeding the new girl his delivery was so good haha)

I wonder who is going to beat up Maggie Gylenhaal character because you know its coming

and how does Margarita Levieva fit into all of this, actually James Franco's character(s) as well

Edited September 21, 2017 by dd21dd21

[jenrising]

12 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I think you can see that in the show. If you look at the marquees there's porn theaters next to theaters showing really good regular movies.

I remember this from when I was a kid in the 80s. Same thing. A street in my city had mainstream movie theaters, porn theaters, pizza places and sex shops all in a row. 

[numbnut]

13 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I think you can see that in the show. If you look at the marquees there's porn theaters next to theaters showing really good regular movies.

The porn theaters may have been pushed farther west on 42nd or limited to other side streets after the 70s. I don't recall seeing them next to Loews on 42nd or beside theaters on 8th Avenue (the main thoroughfare of Times Square) in the 80s. Or maybe I was just too oblivious to see them.

[txhorns79]

Here's a picture of the Times Square area from the mid-70s, showing both normal theaters (showing a Richard Pryor concert and a Bruce Lee movie) and the porn theaters right next to one another:

Edited September 21, 2017 by txhorns79

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV podcast on the episode!

 

The Deuce Sexplains Why It's Hard Out There For A Pimp

Sentence case with period at end. e.g. The bakers are taken way out of their comfort zone.

[msrachelj]

On 9/20/2017 at 9:39 AM, Mileman said:

On the payroll scam, there is a mention at the bar that folks are paid Monday instead of Friday, apparently they are afraid workers will get wrecked during the weekend and not show up on Monday.

I understood the 5% is to get paid on Friday, and then the mob takes the whole payroll on Monday.

What everybody else said makes sense, I just didn't find that detail in the explanations.

I loved Vinyl, I am loving the show so far.

Anyone that was around back then, was NY really that shitty?

The French Connection is one of my all time faves, and every time I watch it I end up surprised a how grim everything looked in the city.

yes, that part of nyc was really that shitty. 

[yellowjacket]

On 9/20/2017 at 9:39 AM, Mileman said:

Anyone that was around back then, was NY really that shitty?

Absolutely.  This show is scarily accurate with sets and costumes.  Lori's side bangs are straight out of my 10th grade yearbook.  Later when I was in college I had that college student's hair (as close as I vould get it).

Times square stayed like that for a long time, into the 80s and 90s.  I bet the show ends with Giuliani getting rid of the sex shops and fun palaces around 1992.  

You're not supposed to be sentimental for the old shitty NYC, but every time I see the NY Times building I get a pang for the old smelly bars they demolished to build it.  You used to be able to come out of the Port Authority (bus terminal) and get a shot for a buck 24/7.  

[Rinaldo]

5 hours ago, yellowjacket said:

Times square stayed like that for a long time, into the 80s and 90s.

One of the biggest steps in the change of 42nd Street was the arrival of Disney to lease and restore (beautifully, it must be said) the old New Amsterdam Theatre, as a venue for its stage productions. The Lion King, Mary Poppins, and now Aladdin have played there, and its status as a magnet for family trade marked a complete reversal from the street's former squalor -- not all by itself of course, there was a lot else coordinated with the project. But such a situation would have been totally unimaginable in 1970, and the lease began as recently as 1995.

[Boumtje-Boumtje 44]

On 9/18/2017 at 10:55 AM, numbnut said:

Still find it hard to tell the twins apart. Maybe that's intentional, like the writers are keeping the mustaches so the twins can get away with tricking the mobster later on. I'll need to watch each ep twice because there's so much info. The payroll game went right over my head. Was CC's story (about escaping the life with one special girl) just another carrot? I'm blown away by the actor, btw. Didn't know he was a Brit. His accent is perfection ("brefess" instead of breakfast; a hint of Nooyawkese).

I'm certain CC (or Cee Cee as I've seen listed somewhere else) has had a similar talk with another hooker or two before. Each time it probably happened towards the beginning of the "relationship", when things were still fresh and there was little history of discord between them. As for whether he actually believes this or was lying I think the answer to that is a little more complicated. I don't see him ever going to Paris but I think he himself believes this is possible even if he knows deep down it is not going to happen. This is CC letting his guard down somewhat and revealing his idealized version of what he could be. This is his moment of indulging in all of his big talk of these major dreams he has. Most of us have been there, talking about all the things we are GOING to do.  Often that talk involves the promise of finally leaving that dead-end job and doing something that we always wanted to do instead. But rarely do we do this and CC is no different. Granted he realizes he can't be pimping forever and he probably doesn't like the lifestyle anyway (nothing glamorous about being a pimp), however it is doubtful he has the will power or character to pull himself away, not unless something forces his hand. Thus the talk he gives Lori is not just something he thinks she needs to hear, but more importantly something he needs to hear most of all. It is a way of convincing himself that he is more than just a pimp, that he has a greater destiny ahead of him, that something better is waiting for him. The hard truth for CC is that the only thing waiting him is jail, a terrible death or at best, if he goes clean, an average 9 to 5 job. 

 

Gary Carr is knocking it out of the park, delivering the best performance on the show. His character is full of contradictions, insecurities, and street swag. Despite how terrible he can be he is a magnetic force that you can't look away from.

[maystone]

3 hours ago, Boumtje-Boumtje 44 said:

I'm certain CC (or Cee Cee as I've seen listed somewhere else) has had a similar talk with another hooker or two before. Each time it probably happened towards the beginning of the "relationship", when things were still fresh and there was little history of discord between them. As for whether he actually believes this or was lying I think the answer to that is a little more complicated. I don't see him ever going to Paris but I think he himself believes this is possible even if he knows deep down it is not going to happen. This is CC letting his guard down somewhat and revealing his idealized version of what he could be. This is his moment of indulging in all of his big talk of these major dreams he has. Most of us have been there, talking about all the things we are GOING to do.  Often that talk involves the promise of finally leaving that dead-end job and doing something that we always wanted to do instead. But rarely do we do this and CC is no different. Granted he realizes he can't be pimping forever and he probably doesn't like the lifestyle anyway (nothing glamorous about being a pimp), however it is doubtful he has the will power or character to pull himself away, not unless something forces his hand. Thus the talk he gives Lori is not just something he thinks she needs to hear, but more importantly something he needs to hear most of all. It is a way of convincing himself that he is more than just a pimp, that he has a greater destiny ahead of him, that something better is waiting for him. The hard truth for CC is that the only thing waiting him is jail, a terrible death or at best, if he goes clean, an average 9 to 5 job. 

 

Gary Carr is knocking it out of the park, delivering the best performance on the show. His character is full of contradictions, insecurities, and street swag. Despite how terrible he can be he is a magnetic force that you can't look away from.

Yours is certainly a well thought-out point of view, but my take is that this isn't a temp job for CC. Pimping seems to me to be a state of mind and an outlook on life (both of those are being generous descriptors) rather than an alternative career. The point of that talk with Lori was to get her to see him as her savior, her caretaker, her long-term lover, her ticket out of whatever hellish experience led her to hooking in the first place. I'm sure he's had that talk or a version of it with all of his ladies.

I think CC would definitely miss the lifestyle. We may think of pimps as the scum of the earth (or maybe that's just me), but my feeling is that they see themselves as bad-ass (OK, maybe not Gentle Richie), stylin', and pretty high up on the ladder of success in their world. I think it says something about CC's commitment to pimping that he's very particular about his wardrobe. In his world view, to be a Pimp is to have a code of behavior and that includes dressing like a man of means.

I agree that Gary Carr is one of the standouts in the cast. His CC is fascinating and charismatic, and I really can't look away when he's on screen.

[Boumtje-Boumtje 44]

3 hours ago, maystone said:

Yours is certainly a well thought-out point of view, but my take is that this isn't a temp job for CC. Pimping seems to me to be a state of mind and an outlook on life (both of those are being generous descriptors) rather than an alternative career. The point of that talk with Lori was to get her to see him as her savior, her caretaker, her long-term lover, her ticket out of whatever hellish experience led her to hooking in the first place. I'm sure he's had that talk or a version of it with all of his ladies.

I think CC would definitely miss the lifestyle. We may think of pimps as the scum of the earth (or maybe that's just me), but my feeling is that they see themselves as bad-ass (OK, maybe not Gentle Richie), stylin', and pretty high up on the ladder of success in their world. I think it says something about CC's commitment to pimping that he's very particular about his wardrobe. In his world view, to be a Pimp is to have a code of behavior and that includes dressing like a man of means.

I agree that Gary Carr is one of the standouts in the cast. His CC is fascinating and charismatic, and I really can't look away when he's on screen.

We'll have to agree to disagree so far as motivations are concerned. Miss the pimp lifestyle? I don't see that as a possible outcome. CC appears to have gotten to his level of pimping pretty quickly for his age but seems smart enough to know there is no long term success story with such an occupation.  His whining about the loneliness and everybody being against him? I'm pretty sure he believes all of that, perhaps a fraction of it is even true. Granted it is all part of his paranoia and problems of his own making, but nevertheless he seems to see pimping as as a life of nothing but headaches and backstabbing. That's different from fellow pimp Larry Brown whom, while outwardly seems more impatient and menacing, appears to like the "job" he has. Larry comes across as enjoying the status he thinks pimping provides him and perhaps that is because he doesn't have any higher aspirations, whether it be in the real job market or in the underworld. He can't see what's coming around the corner and has not complained about the status quo.  CC on the other hand is smart enough to realize he wants out, but doesn't have a clue, the courage or the determination to break away as of yet. He wants that money which to him is probably the only good thing about the job. But the cash isn't making him rich enough to leave it at a moment's notice. That's why he, in my opinion at least, is wistfully thinking about that day in which he will have enough dough to leave the life and New York behind. I just don't think he has a strong enough mindset or possibly enough moral decency to walk away at this stage and that keeps him in place, not his being enamored with the pimp life. 

 

As for pimps being the ultimate scumbags I never get why they receive more disdain in America than, say, mobsters of gangsters who actually tend to inflict far more harm and violence on people of varying guilt and innocence.  Exploiting women? The mob does that as well and often controls the strings of prostitution. Yet somehow they are more romanticized.  I suppose that pimps being viewed by Americans for decades as peacock black men with loud clothing has something to do with it.

[Boumtje-Boumtje 44]

On 9/18/2017 at 6:23 PM, MCMLXXVII said:

Also, I find it fascinating that this show takes place maybe 10 years out from when Black men in the South were regularly lynched for accusations of looking at a white woman wrong, and a few years post "Loving vs Virginia", but the pimp/ho relationship is completely acceptable in its own way. Granted, it's NYC but the subversion of power is really interesting.

I find that extremely fascinating too. I mean we are also talking about just a few years removed from the Civil Rights struggle. Curious enough as far as Hollywood was concerned, the 1970s was the lone decade in which it had little objection to depicting black male leads as very sexual and in fact often included the pairing of such male leads with white actresses. Those things haven't been seen nearly as much in the decades to follow, even with black male stars who were bigger box office attractions. say what you want about the quality of many of the black films of that era, at least they weren't afraid of black male sexuality. Did the stereotypical viewing of black men as purveyors of sex inadvertently influence their "cool" portrayals on screen during a decade known for its "free" sex counterculture.....or vice versa? 

 

Quote

Yes and no. I mean, I think it will surely provide some sort of equality in terms of nudity. And so far they have been kind of equal. But if we're talking about equality here, I still see a difference. When it comes to male frontal nudity, it usually "random characters", they just hire some extra especifically to do that. It's rarely someone from the cast. In this episode for instance, Ashley was shown fully naked. Do we see male actors from the cast doing the same? And it's not just frontal nudity, but nudity in general. Lori was shown topless for a very, very long time when she was having sex and talking to CC. We didn't see CC naked tho. Do you know what I mean.

 

But we did see CC naked. It was a rear shot.

Quote

I know this is a fraught topic, but I strongly disagree with this. In societal terms, the female equivalent of a man showing his penis is a woman showing her breasts. In both cases they are revealing the part of the body about which others (i.e., those interested in that gender) are most curious, on whose size and attractiveness the owner feels judged (and often feels inadequate), and whose "quality" is considered to embody the owner's sexuality -- their masculinity or femininity.

With all due respect, Rinaldo,  the male equivalent to breast exposure has NEVER been glimpses of the penis. Not technically at least. The penis, as you know, is the external genitalia of the male. The female equivalent is, to get overly technical, is the vulva and the clitoris. And to be fair we don't typically get exposure of that on TV or in movies either. Outside of the face there are three parts of both the female and male body that largely attract people: the chest, the buttocks and the genitalia.  How then did the penis become the equivalent of breasts when it is the male chest that should fit that classification? I get that showing the male chest has never been as taboo, but that is still beyond the point. Many societies around the world decided long ago that showing an expose female chest is obscene, while showing the male chest isn't. But that doesn't mean we should use the penis as a substitute to make up for that discrepancy. There is a reason why glimpses of genitalia used to be limited to Rated X movies. 

Edited September 24, 2017 by Boumtje-Boumtje 44
additions

[Rinaldo]

9 minutes ago, Boumtje-Boumtje 44 said:

as far as Hollywood was concerned, the 1970s was the lone decade in which it had little objection to depicting black male leads as very sexual and in fact often included the pairing of such male leads with white actresses.

I remember the movies well, and there were a lot of them (though most of them with the same few male leads). But I'm not recalling the pairing with white actresses; if I'm wrong (and my memory's certainly not infallible, nor would I remotely claim to have seen all the movies), may I ask for some sample titles? As far as I can recall, the black action stars of the period were always paired with black actresses onscreen.

[Gobi]

6 minutes ago, Rinaldo said:

I remember the movies well, and there were a lot of them (though most of them with the same few male leads). But I'm not recalling the pairing with white actresses; if I'm wrong (and my memory's certainly not infallible, nor would I remotely claim to have seen all the movies), may I ask for some sample titles? As far as I can recall, the black action stars of the period were always paired with black actresses onscreen.

I'm not that knowledgeable about Blaxploitation movies, as they were known. I do recall 100 Rifles, a major studio release, that paired Jim Brown with Raquel Welch.

[Boumtje-Boumtje 44]

33 minutes ago, Rinaldo said:

I remember the movies well, and there were a lot of them (though most of them with the same few male leads). But I'm not recalling the pairing with white actresses; if I'm wrong (and my memory's certainly not infallible, nor would I remotely claim to have seen all the movies), may I ask for some sample titles? As far as I can recall, the black action stars of the period were always paired with black actresses onscreen.

Off the top of my head I can think of 100 Rifles, Black Heat, The Grasshopper, HIt!, Report to the Commissioner, Slaughter. Of course in a few of these instances the white woman the black lead bedded may not have been THE female lead, but the point is even having a black man in a scene alone with a white woman would have been unthinkable in the previous decades. Then of course there were scenes of interracial sex in blaxploitation flicks that became the standard bearers such as Shaft, Superfly and I believe Sweet Sweetback Badass Song. There are other examples of course but as of now these are the ones I can immediately recall.  I typically saw those films once at most so it is easy for me to forget which ones had such relationships/sexual interactions take place. 

[stillshimpy]

On 9/20/2017 at 8:34 AM, txhorns79 said:

My parents have told me that Times Square was definitely that seedy, and you'd have to go through that area if you were coming from the Upper East or West Side to go to the theater.  There was a multitude of porn theaters, trash in the streets and adult entertainment.  My father said he thought it was even worse in the 1980s.   

I also kind of loved the terrified looking family who was trying to just have breakfast in a diner full of belligerent, profane pimps and their ho's.  You know the mom was going to rip the dad a new one the second they were out of there for ever choosing that place to eat. 

It was pretty bad in the mid-80s, that's for sure.   My freshman year of college was at a school close to NYC and we'd take the bus in through Port Authority.  One night a cop told us about the lights in a tunnel being off and saying, "I wouldn't go down there if were you but if you do, you should run" which is how I ended up sleeping in Port Authority with three other girls that night because none of us thought the hundred yard dash for your life sounded fun.   But that's what it was like, so dangerous in some areas that even the cops were of the "best of luck to you, nothing I can do" mindset.  

This entire show just fills me with dread.  Abby's story is particularly distressing.  Just throwing away her life and prospects and for no real reason.  I thought in the in the pilot she was parallel to Candy's story and I'm still wondering if that was the case.  

I assume Candy got pregnant and had a child and it was still a time when that might ruin a person's life going forward without family support.  Her mom's pointed jabs about Mystery Date seems to indicate she knows what her daughter does and she made a point of having invented a better life for her daughter to tell her grandson about.  

All the sex in this show is repulsive and I think meant to be so but I was completely flipped out by Candy going into the basement of a strange house.  It didn't help that the place looked the set of a horror movie to start.  Hopefully, she's going to find some way to improve her life but it looks like Abby is going to be in trouble if she doesn't end up being Vinnie's business partner.  I'm assuming they met for a reason. 

23 hours ago, Boumtje-Boumtje 44 said:

We'll have to agree to disagree so far as motivations are concerned. Miss the pimp lifestyle? I don't see that as a possible outcome. CC appears to have gotten to his level of pimping pretty quickly for his age but seems smart enough to know there is no long term success story with such an occupation.  His whining about the loneliness and everybody being against him? I'm pretty sure he believes all of that, perhaps a fraction of it is even true. Granted it is all part of his paranoia and problems of his own making, but nevertheless he seems to see pimping as as a life of nothing but headaches and backstabbing. That's different from fellow pimp Larry Brown whom, while outwardly seems more impatient and menacing, appears to like the "job" he has. Larry comes across as enjoying the status he thinks pimping provides him and perhaps that is because he doesn't have any higher aspirations, whether it be in the real job market or in the underworld. He can't see what's coming around the corner and has not complained about the status quo.  CC on the other hand is smart enough to realize he wants out, but doesn't have a clue, the courage or the determination to break away as of yet. He wants that money which to him is probably the only good thing about the job. But the cash isn't making him rich enough to leave it at a moment's notice. That's why he, in my opinion at least, is wistfully thinking about that day in which he will have enough dough to leave the life and New York behind. I just don't think he has a strong enough mindset or possibly enough moral decency to walk away at this stage and that keeps him in place, not his being enamored with the pimp life. 

 

As for pimps being the ultimate scumbags I never get why they receive more disdain in America than, say, mobsters of gangsters who actually tend to inflict far more harm and violence on people of varying guilt and innocence.  Exploiting women? The mob does that as well and often controls the strings of prostitution. Yet somehow they are more romanticized.  I suppose that pimps being viewed by Americans for decades as peacock black men with loud clothing has something to do with it.

Just speaking for myself, I have enough contempt and disdain for men who exploit women to encompass both.  I think CC's lines are standard issue abusive manipulation and I'm also fairly certain that he has a whole host of justifying reasons in his mind for why lying to his "girls" is necessary for his business.  But he beats and carves on women, so I really don't care if he dreams of going to Paris, he's already guilty of actual really, no mistaking it, hardcore misogyny so yes, he rates in the "scumbag without any redeeming qualities" category for me.   Mobsters are often depicted as keeping their family lives and business lives separate, that's partly why I think people can be convinced that there is more to them.   CC is a man we know hangs out a bus stations, waiting to prey on young, hopeful women who he then essentially enslaves.  I'm fairly certain that rates a titanium level medal in the Scumbag Olympics.  Those women are in danger, he knows it, he beats, lies to, cuts and threatens his "girls".  He's scum and it really doesn't matter if he's scum dreaming of the Louvre to me.  The moment he took a razor blade to a woman who wanted to come in out of the rain, while he sat warm and dry, he defined his character as much as I needed him to.   I'm sure because it is David Simon we're going to find out about his life and realize he was a made monster vs. being a born one but he's still a monster.  Monsters rarely realize they are monsters, so of course he has his rationalizations.  

It's fun watching The Wire convention but it's downright harrowing to watch someone like Darlene trying to sneak in a few chapters of Dickens in between being exploited on almost every known level and then too terrified of the horrid man using her body to buy his own bread to have so much as a conversation about it.  I like that they've given some depth to all of the prostitutes but other than the guy they refer to as something like Gentle Mike -- who I take it doesn't as horribly mistreat women, and yet still pressures them to sell themselves -- the pimps are just terrifying.  Lying in wait, waiting for hicks from the sticks to get off a Greyhound and fall for the act that includes lot of casual demeaning outside of turning them out. 

But the show now has me hooked because whereas I don't care even a tiny thing about any of the male characters yet, I already just want at least one of those poor women to get the hell away.   

Edited September 25, 2017 by stillshimpy