S06 Discussion

[catrox14]

This is the place to discuss all episodes for Season Six. Please take discussion of other seasons to the appropriate season thread or the main All Episodes thread. Please take bitterness and 'Bitch vs Jerk' to the appropriate threads. Otherwise, enjoy!

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Gonna put this new thread to good use!  

From the Unforgiven thread, I was speculating on what happened to those other arachne that the original female created and that DeputySpider created, who he said had already left town by the time Sam and Dean got to him.  I don't remember, but was the fate of all the weird monsters like these this season were addressed with a single line later after Eve was killed?  Was something ever said about all Eve's experiments dying when she did?  

[Pondlass1]

I don't know if this is the right thread but today's total eclipse of the sun (in US) is making me think of the episode where the sun was dying and no one seemed particularly bothered, not even CNN. And when the sun was miraculously fixed and the BMOL captured Sam, their only interest ... the names of US hunters. DUH!

[DittyDotDot]

40 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Gonna put this new thread to good use!  

From the Unforgiven thread, I was speculating on what happened to those other arachne that the original female created and that DeputySpider created, who he said had already left town by the time Sam and Dean got to him.  I don't remember, but was the fate of all the weird monsters like these this season were addressed with a single line later after Eve was killed?  Was something ever said about all Eve's experiments dying when she did?  

They were more amped up and doing recruitment drives with Eve's presence, but my understanding was the just went back to the previous status quo after she died. She did keep laying eggs after her death, so I don't think her death killed her children.

25 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

Spoiler

I don't know if this is the right thread but today's total eclipse of the sun (in US) is making me think of the episode where the sun was dying and no one seemed particularly bothered, not even CNN. And when the sun was miraculously fixed and the BMOL captured Sam, their only interest ... the names of US hunters. DUH!

 

You might try the S11 All Episodes thread since it's kinda spoilery for S6--or just spoiler tag your post.

Edited August 21, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Diane]

So re-watching this season and it is just so obvious now that Sam was different.  I really liked Lisa and Ben too. Watching Two and a Half Men Sam is just so off. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 hour ago, Diane said:

Watching Two and a Half Men Sam is just so off. 

Well, he smiled too much for regular Sam, that's for sure.  :)

[Diane]

Just now, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Well, he smiled too much for regular Sam, that's for sure.  :)

He was so cold to, Jared really did play the hell out of that. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

18 minutes ago, Diane said:

He was so cold to, Jared really did play the hell out of that. 

Yeah he did.   I thought he did a good job being...harder...than regular Sam, but not so off at the beginning of the season that it was really obvious.  

[Diane]

1 minute ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Yeah he did.   I thought he did a good job being...harder...than regular Sam, but not so off at the beginning of the season that it was really obvious.  

I agree, have watched this season a lot, I see it now, but then I thought something was a little off.  I attributed to him being in hell. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

16 minutes ago, Diane said:

I agree, have watched this season a lot, I see it now, but then I thought something was a little off.  I attributed to him being in hell. 

Same!  I've only watched the season twice now - once in my original binge and then once again the last month or so.  Definitely the second time through I could more clearly see and appreciate all the subtle changes Jared infused into Sam.  

[Catfi9ht]

First time rewatching season 6, and I just noticed the SoullessSam metaphor perfectly describes what happened to this show this season. It looked like Supernatural, it kind of sounded like Supernatural, but something about it was off.

Even consistently good writers for the show didn't seem to deliver the same level of quality in the previous seasons. Ben Edlund, who IMHO had not delivered a bad show prior to this season, had some ideas that were funny in context but didn't deliver in the finished product, Clap Your Hands... and The French Mistake come to mind in particular. Maybe Eric Kripke was better at making the show conform to its construct in the universe he created and when he stepped back as showrunner, Sera Gamble didn't fit that role as well.

Supernatural seems to fail to me when they try to expand the universe to ideas that don't particularly fit with the tone of the show (e.g. faeries and leprechauns). If they would have delivered a more American Gods-esque leprechaun, etc. I think it would have fit with the universe better. As a separate idea, the Lovecraftian lore was an excellent fit for this show, but it was relegated to a single episode.

Realistically, the only episodes that people need to watch to understand the season in it's entirety are 19, 20, and 22. Episode 21 felt like it should have aired in a different order and didn't blend with the momentum of the other three of the last four.

Finally, too many disjointed ideas in this season that don't come together, heaven's weapons, Eve, purgatory, Castiel's journey. They could have just went with purgatory and Castiel as the main season arch and nothing of value would have been lost. I don't feel like the Eve character was necessary at all to introduce purgatory.

Ok, well to end on a positive note, I really enjoyed Weekend at Bobby's and Appointment in Samarra.

[Iju]

rip sorted SPN seasons so i'll just comment on it here:

ep 20:

my boo castiel. he's one of the most faithful of the angels. he really misses God. if i must be brutally honest i don't like this whole deal with God leaving, it's already so painful for the angels but it's painful for myself because i have already connected with castiel, i just want him to be happy. but what he's doing with crowley can't be right. he has to know that.

ep 21:

i seem to remember talking about this episode already??? maybe it was only with my mother. anyway i'll keep this short, i don't and won't care about ben and lisa. i don't want them to die of course but i don't like them half because i'm still sour about cassie (i probably always will be) and they just aren't an appealing family for dean. ben is only slightly more interesting than lisa but that's it.

ep 22:

wait, didn't i comment on this as well? i remember laughing at sam's "I was with two guys. One was like a male model type" comment when he was talking about dean. i'll keep this short again by saying my mother liked how misha looked at the end of the ep. he plays his parts so well. what is he going to do FPS!

[gonzosgirrl]

26 minutes ago, Iju said:

i'll keep this short again by saying my mother liked how misha looked at the end of the ep. he plays his parts so well. what is he going to do FPS!

Nothing good. ;)

[Iju]

18 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Nothing good. ;)

but i love cass...;_;

[gonzosgirrl]

4 hours ago, Iju said:

but i love cass...;_;

Cas.

[Iju]

4 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Cas.

natflix caps say cass, does the TV caps spell it with one S?

[DittyDotDot]

On 8/17/2018 at 1:40 AM, Iju said:

natflix caps say cass, does the TV caps spell it with one S?

It's a long-standing debate and joke within the fandom. The writers--and Misha himself--uses Cass while fandom uses Cas. 

[gonzosgirrl]

I've never understood the debate. One s in Castiel, one s in Cas. Don't care what the sides or CC or Misha says, lol. I'm 83% sure he's trolling the fandom when he does it anyway. 

[hypnotoad]

So proud ... i finally finished season 6. This is the furthest I've ever gotten watching this show on Netflix. I always sort of lose interest somewhere in season 4 and then tons of time goes by and then I start at the beginning again. I am already so over angels and all of that ... and I have what 7 seasons to go?!? Sigh. At least the Campbell gang is gone.

On to season 7 ....

[gonzosgirrl]

This brings to mind a question. Cas brought Sam back to help with the Alpha monster collection with the goal of Purgatory and all those souls in mind. So what if they had succeeded without needing Dean, and Cas figured out Sam done come back wrong. Would he have just put him back? Would he have gone to Dean then? Would Bobby have missed Sam eventually and decided to tell Dean?

Edited September 7, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[Airmid]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

This brings to mind a question. Cas brought Sam back to help with the Alpha monster collection with the goal of Purgatory and all those souls in mind. So what if they had succeeded without needing Dean, and Cas figured out Sam done come back wrong. Would he have just put him back? Would he have gone to Dean then? Would Bobby have missed Sam eventually and decided to tell Dean?

They had been doing good up until one of the monsters targeted Dean. Then add in the part where everything outside of Cas seemed to know something was wrong with Sam if not the extent of the problem (including the fae!). 

I always thought that Cas was prideful enough to think that he could have rescued Sam. When that wasn't the case, at least not fully, I don't think he went to Dean for a variety of reasons. One seemed to be his want for Dean to be at peace, and also that he considered Dean lesser as a human and formed alliances with supernatural creatures. He even says late in S6 that Dean is just a man (completely forgetting that Dean stabbed an angel in the head and has killed gods).

With the way S6 is written at the start, I always got the impression that Cas knew that Sam was wrong and that he would use what part of Sam he had to further his mission, as that was his personality at the time. I honestly never bought the S6 story that Cas just had no clue until he stuck his hand in Sam's chest. 

Given that Bobby couldn't be bothered to tell Dean that what he thought was Sam (seeing as Bobby seemed to really believe it) was not suffering in hell for a year, I can't see the old man bothering with telling Dean anything unless things went way sideways and somebody needed to be put down. 

It also makes the whole thing more sickening if Cas knew that Sam was wrong, given the strain Dean was under and that Sam let things happen to him, including Dean turning into a vamp. 

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, Airmid said:

With the way S6 is written at the start, I always got the impression that Cas knew that Sam was wrong and that he would use what part of Sam he had to further his mission, as that was his personality at the time. I honestly never bought the S6 story that Cas just had no clue until he stuck his hand in Sam's chest. 

I often wondered this myself, and that's why I entirely understood why Sam was the one to be questioning how Castiel was acting in mid to late season 6. And also why he wondered out loud if Castiel brought him back soulless on purpose, because yeah with how Castiel was acting, I could see why Sam might wonder. Especially concerning - though I don't think Sam knew this part - was Castiel suggesting that maybe Dean should leave Sam's soul in hell... which: ouch. Dean seemed to be the only sane one of the bunch who realized that the soulless sociopath walking around in Sam's body was not fundamentally Sam... and dangerous besides.

I was going to say more here, but realized it had to do with season 8, and that this is just the season 6 discussion thread, so I took it out... I was basically saying that because of all of that above... and how casually Castiel would break Sam's wall later on in season 6 (which again: ouch), I entirely got why Sam would later question how trustworthy Castiel could be at times.

[FlickChick]

As far as I know, Sera Gamble had every intention of getting rid of Cas permanently. So I felt she really just made Cas make one poor decision after the other. I understand why Cas was in league with Crowley, because we saw that Raphael would bring about the apocalypse if Cas couldn't stop him. We also saw that Cas still wanted to help the Winchesters and wouldn't let anything happen to them. I don't think he was a terrible character, just a naive one. Of course, once he had all the souls in him, we're supposed to believe they made a "god" out of him complete with hubris up the wazoo. I personally felt bad for the character and what (I believe) Sera did to get rid of him. JMO

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, FlickChick said:

As far as I know, Sera Gamble had every intention of getting rid of Cas permanently. So I felt she really just made Cas make one poor decision after the other. I understand why Cas was in league with Crowley, because we saw that Raphael would bring about the apocalypse if Cas couldn't stop him. We also saw that Cas still wanted to help the Winchesters and wouldn't let anything happen to them. I don't think he was a terrible character, just a naive one. Of course, once he had all the souls in him, we're supposed to believe they made a "god" out of him complete with hubris up the wazoo. I personally felt bad for the character and what (I believe) Sera did to get rid of him. JMO

I don't disagree with any of this, except for the last part and that I'm not sure about the getting rid of Cas part. I definitely understood how Castiel got himself into the mess that he did, though, but then again I also understood how Sam got himself into the mess that he did in season 4 as well, so...

For me, it also in the end kind of made Sam and Castiel understand each other a bit more and perhaps brought them closer as well through their shared experience, and I liked that actually.

As for what Sera did to Castiel, I thought that it was at least a meaty arc - meatier than some of the arcs that Castiel has gotten since - and didn't see it as any worse than what was done with Sam in season 4, so I didn't real feel sorry for Castiel per se. I also thought that he got to get some redemption later on, so I was okay with it.

Edited September 8, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[DeeDee79]

11 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

For me, it also in the end kind of made Sam and Castiel understand each other a bit more and perhaps brought them closer as well through their shared experience, and I liked that actually.

Do you mean in the end of season 6 or more in a "in the long run" kind of way?

[AwesomO4000]

49 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Do you mean in the end of season 6 or more in a "in the long run" kind of way?

I think it manifested more in the long run, but for me, it started due to the things that happened throughout season 6. And it started showing up, I think, at the very beginning of season 7 - which was a continuation of season 6. Unlike some of the season finales of the show - like the season 2 finale which felt like an end of the YED storyline and the season 5 finale where we had a time jump - the season 6 season finale and season 7 season premier were closely connected and the continuation of the same story.*** I think one of the reasons that Sam was willing to forgive Castiel breaking his wall so easily was because he understood all too well how someone could fall down that hole, and I think after Castiel went through what happened with Raphael and what he did to try to combat this, he understood better how Sam fell into a similar thing in season 4. For me, without what happened to Castiel in season 6, I don't think he would have had the same understanding of Sam and what happened with Sam in season 4, and for Cas, Sam would've always mainly just been the one who didn't make the right choice.

*** More like the season 1 finale / season 2 premier and the season 4 finale / season 5 premier which both were also direct continuations of the previous season's storyline.

[Myrelle]

4 hours ago, FlickChick said:

As far as I know, Sera Gamble had every intention of getting rid of Cas permanently. So I felt she really just made Cas make one poor decision after the other. I understand why Cas was in league with Crowley, because we saw that Raphael would bring about the apocalypse if Cas couldn't stop him. We also saw that Cas still wanted to help the Winchesters and wouldn't let anything happen to them. I don't think he was a terrible character, just a naive one. Of course, once he had all the souls in him, we're supposed to believe they made a "god" out of him complete with hubris up the wazoo. I personally felt bad for the character and what (I believe) Sera did to get rid of him. JMO

I cannot agree with this more.

So + 100,0000. 

IMO, Cas' worst sin on this show was having too much chemistry with Dean.

I'm re-watching S6 on TNT now and Gambles' preferences are so very apparent to me; and the Cas/Dean dynamic was clearly not her thing, even while she easily recognized all the electricity between the two characters right from the beginning when she told MC that everything in his life was going to change after the S4 premiere.

IMO, she tried with all her might to make Sam into Dean in S6 and to make Cas as invested in Sam as he was in Dean during that same season; and IMO, it became farcical at certain points-Family Matters being one of the more obvious ones.

Another terrible showrunner, IMO, who, in all honesty(and not unlike Dabb) wasn't an awful writer on this show when they wrote with another writer on this show. And that's all I'm going to say here as the rest of what I would have to say would definitely belong in the B vs J thread. 

Edited September 8, 2018 by Myrelle

[gonzosgirrl]

Bad as Gamble arguably may have been, I'd trade Dabb for her in a heartbeat. OTOH, maybe that's why she has such high praise for Dabb.

Blech.

[DeeDee79]

16 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I think it manifested more in the long run, but for me, it started due to the things that happened throughout season 6. And it started showing up, I think, at the very beginning of season 7 - which was a continuation of season 6. Unlike some of the season finales of the show - like the season 2 finale which felt like an end of the YED storyline and the season 5 finale where we had a time jump - the season 6 season finale and season 7 season premier were closely connected and the continuation of the same story.*** I think one of the reasons that Sam was willing to forgive Castiel breaking his wall so easily was because he understood all too well how someone could fall down that hole, and I think after Castiel went through what happened with Raphael and what he did to try to combat this, he understood better how Sam fell into a similar thing in season 4. For me, without what happened to Castiel in season 6, I don't think he would have had the same understanding of Sam and what happened with Sam in season 4, and for Cas, Sam would've always mainly just been the one who didn't make the right choice.

*** More like the season 1 finale / season 2 premier and the season 4 finale / season 5 premier which both were also direct continuations of the previous season's storyline.

I can understand what you're saying from Sam's viewpoint; especially since he forgave Cas for breaking his wall. TBH as much as I enjoy Cas his causes and fixations on "fixing" things and doing what's right often make him shortsighted and arrogant which isn't surprising because many of the angels are depicted the same way. I personally don't feel that he was truly capable of empathizing with humans until after he was turned into one himself. His interaction with Sam in First Born was the first time that I truly saw them connecting and bought it.

[Myrelle]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Bad as Gamble arguably may have been, I'd trade Dabb for her in a heartbeat. OTOH, maybe that's why she has such high praise for Dabb.

Blech.

Sorry, but Ms. Gambles' props mean nothing to me, especially while I'm re-watching her S6 featuring her Sam as The New Dean...*vomits*...and Sastiel. Blech-what a horrible season for Dean and his fandom. IMO, of course. 

[AwesomO4000]

7 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

IMO, she tried with all her might to make Sam into Dean in S6 and to make Cas as invested in Sam as he was in Dean during that same season; and IMO, it became farcical at certain points-Family Matters being one of the more obvious ones.

Are you trying to say that Soulless Sam was supposed to be more like Dean? Because for me, that's a major insult to Dean.

I also didn't see Castiel as "invested" in Sam during "Family Matters." Based on what happened later, I think it could be argued that Castiel was as much invested in keeping his secret - and maybe in not feeling guilty about what happened - as he was in Sam himself.*** For example, if Castiel had to be faced with a severely damaged Sam's soul back in Sam's body, it would be a constant reminder that he didn't speak up about thinking something might be wrong ahead of time. I thought the story arc with Castiel in season 6 was very much about Dean, since Dean was the one who ended up feeling betrayed and it was very much the Dean / Castiel bond - and how it was damaged - that was focused on, in my opinion anyway.

*** Especially since in my opinion, Soulless Sam wasn't even really Sam in my opinion.

[Myrelle]

But Jensen stepped up again, IMO and as usual-when he's given half a chance, that is.

[DeeDee79]

26 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

IMO, she tried with all her might to make Sam into Dean in S6

It's interesting that you say this because it nearly echoes a blog post that I read on tumblr yesterday by thejabberwock. She said: "although I loved the soulless Sam storyline because I enjoyed the side of Sam that was essentially uncomplicated, and of course I loved Dean through all of it and how he reacted, both before and after. But do you know what really bugged me about that storyline? How they dealt with some of Sam’s reactions to things as a soulless person, because if you study some of it carefully you’ll see that Sam is doing things that Dean usually does, and that’s Dean with a soul so I’m not really sure what they’re trying to say with that (are they trying to tell us Dean’s soul is tarnished, which doesn’t really work because if it is, which I’m not saying it couldn’t be, seems as though Sam’s would be equally tarnished), or if I’m just squinting at it too hard. During Sam’s time soulless, it was considered bad (immoral is probably not the word but stay with me here) that he was having sex casually and who do we know that likes to have casual sex? Ding, ding, ding, it’s Dean! So, are the writers trying to make a statement about that or is that just a coincidence?"

I got a kick out of Soulless Sam but looking at it in that light just annoys me when I think about it beyond surface level. The internet aggravates me when it makes me think too hard!

Edited September 8, 2018 by DeeDee79

[Myrelle]

11 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Are you trying to say that Soulless Sam was supposed to be more like Dean? Because for me, that's a major insult to Dean.

She said it herself. Just re-watch You Can't Handle the Truth which i watched today. The scene when Dean states his truth after being asked to by the Goddess of Truth. That's Gamble, IMO and JP's shouting it to the fandom during that summer's entire hiatus said it all to/for me, also. I'll never forget that hiatus. It was when I lost it for the show, on a whole, more than ever.

Edited September 8, 2018 by Myrelle

[DeeDee79]

6 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

But Jensen stepped up again, IMO and as usual-when he's given half a chance, that is.

As he always does which is why I'm still here! There was a lot of great Dean material in this season once you strip away all of the Campbell crap.

Edited September 8, 2018 by DeeDee79

[Myrelle]

4 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

As he always does which is why I'm still here! There was a lot of great Dean material in this season once you strip away all of the Campbell crap.

He was Amazing, IMO also. Especially when you consider the shit storyline that he had to deal with and was looking at if SoullessSam had lasted all season, as she had wanted. Sam's Jiminy Cricket?-Please. That was as bad as Thompson's LOTR Samwise parallel to me-worse even, tbh, and considering the timing-right after the end of S5 debacle. Yuck. :-/

[DeeDee79]

Just now, Myrelle said:

He was Amazing, IMO also. Especially when you consider the shit storyline that he had to deal with and was looking at if SoullessSam had lasted all season, as she had wanted. Sam's Jiminy Cricket?-Please. That was as bad as Thompson's LOTR Samwise parallel to me-worse even, tbh, and considering the timing-right after the end of S5 debacle. Yuck. :-/

With Bobby not even giving him the courtesy of letting him know that Sam was alive ( f**k you forever Bobby ) , Cas's betrayal, losing a family that adored him (especially Ben ) and the Soulless Sam shenanigans I rooted hard for Dean all season and Jensen ( as always ) didn't disappoint!

[Myrelle]

I really hated that she threw cold water all over the Dean/Cas dynamic. I remember how huge Destiel was back then, and while I never saw the relationship in the same light as the shippers did, I also never saw things the same way that the Wincest fandom had before them. It was when Cas came on the scene that the writers first started catering to the fandom more than ever-the Bros.Only/Wincesters, that is, IMO. 

I loved the Dean/Cas dynamic in S4 and 5, but after Gamble's input and the effect it had on the show after that season-no thank you-which is too bad because their chemistry is still off the charts when it's allowed to flourish as it did back then even now, IMO.

So many foolish choices made after S4 by the showrunners in that regard and IMO. So foolish and all just to please one segment of the fandom. 

[DeeDee79]

1 minute ago, Myrelle said:

I really hated that she threw cold water all over the Dean/Cas dynamic. I remember how huge Destiel was back then, and while I never saw the relationship in the same light as the shippers did, I also never saw things the same way that the Wincest fandom had before them. It was when Cas came on the scene that the writers first started catering to the fandom more than ever-the Bros.Only/Wincesters, that is, IMO. 

I loved the Dean/Cas dynamic in S4 and 5, but after Gamble's input and the effect it had on the show after that season-no thank you-which is too bad because their chemistry is still off the charts when it's allowed to flourish as it did back then even now, IMO.

So many foolish choices made after S4 by the showrunners in that regard and IMO. So foolish and all just to please one segment of the fandom. 

I didn't watch live; I binged watched TNT reruns while season 11 was airing and didn't get into fandom until after I started to actively post on this board. I didn't even know about Destiel and Wincest until I ventured into fanfic which was about a year after I began to watch live. I just remember how jarring it was to see Cas deviating from his allegiance with Dean to going to extreme methods in order to win the war against Raphael and wondering why they had destroyed the character to the point of him making the ultimate betrayal and breaking Sam's wall. I didn't find out until reading posts here that Sera Gamble did it because she was done with the character. Whatever her personal feelings were towards Cas's character and his storyline she should've thought about all of the fans that enjoyed him and his dynamic with Dean and kept him as a hero even if she felt that he had to go rather than making him an asshole before giving him the boot. 

[Myrelle]

8 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I didn't watch live; I binged watched TNT reruns while season 11 was airing and didn't get into fandom until after I started to actively post on this board. I didn't even know about Destiel and Wincest until I ventured into fanfic which was about a year after I began to watch live. I just remember how jarring it was to see Cas deviating from his allegiance with Dean to going to extreme methods in order to win the war against Raphael and wondering why they had destroyed the character to the point of him making the ultimate betrayal and breaking Sam's wall. I didn't find out until reading posts here that Sera Gamble did it because she was done with the character. Whatever her personal feelings were towards Cas's character and his storyline she should've thought about all of the fans that enjoyed him and his dynamic with Dean and kept him as a hero even if she felt that he had to go rather than making him an asshole before giving him the boot. 

Frankly, I was surprised MC stayed with the show after the Gamble nonsense, but he's no fool. The Castiel role made him and he knew it and it was too late to try and get rid of him when she did and he knew that, also. 

I think that the same thing might have happened with Benny if he'd been given more time on the show, too, but they learned well when to get rid of a character after Cas. IMO, of course.

Edited September 8, 2018 by Myrelle

[DeeDee79]

1 minute ago, Myrelle said:

Frankly, I was surprised MC stayed with the show after the gsmble nonsense, but he's no fool. The Castiel role made him and he knew it and it was too late to try and get rid of him when she did and he knew that, also. 

I think that the same thing might have happened with Benny if he'd been given more time on the show, too, but they learned well when to get rid of a character after Cas.

I also read ( not here ) that Jensen was instrumental in getting Misha back on the show after Sera killed him off. Do you know if there is any truth to that or is it just fan speculation?

[Myrelle]

3 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I also read ( not here ) that Jensen was instrumental in getting Misha back on the show after Sera killed him off. Do you know if there is any truth to that or is it just fan speculation?

I heard this also from convention news, tbh. I remember them being asked who they would like to have back on the show-as they are asked even now-and JA would always answer Cas and John back then, when it was questionable whether they would bring Cas back.

And as he does for Benny and John now.

[DeeDee79]

Just now, Myrelle said:

I heard this also from convention news, tbh. I remember them being asked who they would like to have back on the show-as they are asked even now-and JA would always answer Cas and John back then, when it was questionable whether they would bring Cas back.

Interesting. I actually remember reading that Jensen went to Sera and persuaded her into giving Misha his job back. Maybe I read it on a Destiel centric blog :)

[AwesomO4000]

2 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

It's interesting that you say this because it nearly echoes a blog post that I read on tumblr yesterday by thejabberwock. She said: "although I loved the soulless Sam storyline because I enjoyed the side of Sam that was essentially uncomplicated, and of course I loved Dean through all of it and how he reacted, both before and after. But do you know what really bugged me about that storyline? How they dealt with some of Sam’s reactions to things as a soulless person, because if you study some of it carefully you’ll see that Sam is doing things that Dean usually does, and that’s Dean with a soul so I’m not really sure what they’re trying to say with that (are they trying to tell us Dean’s soul is tarnished, which doesn’t really work because if it is, which I’m not saying it couldn’t be, seems as though Sam’s would be equally tarnished), or if I’m just squinting at it too hard. During Sam’s time soulless, it was considered bad (immoral is probably not the word but stay with me here) that he was having sex casually and who do we know that likes to have casual sex? Ding, ding, ding, it’s Dean! So, are the writers trying to make a statement about that or is that just a coincidence?"

Oh, wow. I could not agree less with this blog post. I didn't find Soulless Sam to be anything like Dean. At all... especially Sam's actions during his casual sexual encounters. Soulless Sam didn't care anything about the women he was sleeping with or whether or not they got anything out of the encounter. I couldn't imagine Dean being anywhere near as insulting as Soulless Sam was to that prostitute. And as for Soulless Sam's reactions to things, Dean would never let Sam - or anyone - get turned into a vampire just to see what would happen. Dean would never casually beat a cop nearly to death just because he could... Soulless Sam was mainly creepy as all get out. Nothing like Dean, in my opinion.

Now, I could see Soulless Sam trying to mimic what he might think Dean acts like, considering Soulless Sam thought Sam with a soul was weak and he might see acting like Dean to be a way to fly under the radar, but for me, Soulless Sam fell way short.

17 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

She said it herself. Just re-watch You Can't Handle the Truth which i watched today. The scene when Dean states his truth after being asked to by the Goddess of Truth. That's Gamble, IMO

First in my opinion, Dean is an unreliable narrator when it comes to himself. This isn't the only time that Dean has called himself just a killer. However - in my opinion - the narrative clearly shows that this isn't the case, so when Dean says stuff like this, I pretty much chalk it up to his self-esteem issues and don't believe it has anything to do with reality.

Also just because Dean was seeing this mostly behaved version of Soulless Sam - maybe even a Soulless Sam trying to mimic Dean - that doesn't mean that we, the audience, didn't see enough of Soulless Sam - especially later on - to know that what Dean was saying was nowhere near the truth. There's no way that Sam was "acting just like [Dean]." Maybe trying to... and maybe succeeding on a very surface level to fool Dean - though even Dean saw through it, so not succeeding, but no nothing like dean, in my opinion. Not even close. Not even on Dean's worst day... not even

Spoiler

Demon Dean

was as bad as Soulless Sam.

As for Jared, if the hiatus you are referring to was before the season 6, there would be no way for him to know exactly how bad Soulless Sam would get. I'm not even sure if Jared would know that Sam was going to be soulless at that point. We, the viewers, didn't learn the entire extent of how bad Soulless Sam was until the end of the season, and the worst of it didn't start until "Unforgiven," half way through the season... so what Jared had to say before the season even started would mean nothing to me.

As I've said before, I believe what I see onscreen. I don't listen to anything the showrunners, writers, or the actors have to say about the show, especially before the episodes are even written or filmed.

5 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I really hated that she threw cold water all over the Dean/Cas dynamic.

Whereas I saw her story as a continuation of the dynamic already started by Kripke in season 4 and 5. Sure Castiel in season 4 did eventually try to help, but not before he had turned Anna in, making sure she couldn't warn Dean, let Sam out of the panic room, and the kidnapped Dean and kept him from Sam, knowing what would happen. Even in season 5, there were some hints that Castiel still didn't sometimes get it and that his relationship with Dean was conditional. When things didn't work out exactly how Castiel wanted, he blamed Dean for his choices, basically saying I did this for you, so this is all your fault that I'm in this position. And when Dean didn't act as Castiel wanted, he beat Dean up and gave up on him.

I think that @DeeDee79 is exactly right above in that excellent - in my opinion - observation. I don't think that Castiel could really understand Sam or Dean until he became human himself. Castiel may have looked to Dean for guidance on what it was to be human, but because he wasn't human, but an angel, he was often quick to judge and still considered himself to have belonged to "a much better club."

1 hour ago, DeeDee79 said:

I can understand what you're saying from Sam's viewpoint; especially since he forgave Cas for breaking his wall. TBH as much as I enjoy Cas his causes and fixations on "fixing" things and doing what's right often make him shortsighted and arrogant which isn't surprising because many of the angels are depicted the same way. I personally don't feel that he was truly capable of empathizing with humans until after he was turned into one himself. His interaction with Sam in First Born was the first time that I truly saw them connecting and bought it.

This makes a lot of sense, and I agree that this is when they really started connecting. I still think that their shared screw up though helped in the long run - and I could see some beginnings of understanding in season 7 from Castiel - because unlike Castiel and Dean, Sam and Castiel otherwise didn't have a "profound bond." Their bond was in understanding how it felt to screw up and disappoint Dean.

8 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I didn't watch live; I binged watched TNT reruns while season 11 was airing and didn't get into fandom until after I started to actively post on this board. I didn't even know about Destiel and Wincest until I ventured into fanfic which was about a year after I began to watch live. I just remember how jarring it was to see Cas deviating from his allegiance with Dean to going to extreme methods in order to win the war against Raphael and wondering why they had destroyed the character to the point of him making the ultimate betrayal and breaking Sam's wall. I didn't find out until reading posts here that Sera Gamble did it because she was done with the character. Whatever her personal feelings were towards Cas's character and his storyline she should've thought about all of the fans that enjoyed him and his dynamic with Dean and kept him as a hero even if she felt that he had to go rather than making him an asshole before giving him the boot. 

Maybe it's because I watched live since the beginning, but I didn't see what Sera did as a drastic deviation entirely. As I mentioned above, even at the best of times, Castiel's bond / allegiance with Dean could have "conditions" attached. He was sometimes quick to judge and/or give up on Dean when the going got rough. I think the line I mentioned above from "The End" illustrated that all too well. Unless what we saw in "The End" was really just a construct by Zachariah - and that is entirely possible - what we saw there was a Castiel who was essentially losing his angel powers, and so should have sympathized more with humanity. But Castiel was still declaring that he used to belong to a much better "club" with that club being angels... even though Cas knew it was the angels that started the whole apocalypse to begin with. So for me, Castiel starting out trying to help Dean but getting caught up in angel politics and thinking his view better and that Dean was "just a man" was just a continuation of what we saw in "The End"... a Castiel who was nearly human, but would rather have still belonged to "a much better club."

But I also understand that other's miles may vary.

[Myrelle]

There's so much here say in this fandom. As I'm sure there is in any other, but I have little doubt that she wanted to be rid of Castiel because of his divisive nature within the on-line fandom, but second to getting rid of him was attempting to give him to Sam to a similar degree that he'd originally been given to Dean. And her efforts at that were apparently enough to satisfy the Sam fandom, while also satisfying the Destiel fandom. And there you go, for where we pretty much are now. IMO. Again, of course.

[DeeDee79]

18 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Oh, wow. I could not agree less with this blog post. I didn't find Soulless Sam to be anything like Dean. At all... especially Sam's actions during his casual sexual encounters. Soulless Sam didn't care anything about the women he was sleeping with or whether or not they got anything out of the encounter. I couldn't imagine Dean being anywhere near as insulting as Soulless Sam was to that prostitute. And as for Soulless Sam's reactions to things, Dean would never let Sam - or anyone - get turned into a vampire just to see what would happen. Dean would never casually beat a cop nearly to death just because he could... Soulless Sam was mainly creepy as all get out. Nothing like Dean, in my opinion.

Now, I could see Soulless Sam trying to mimic what he might think Dean acts like, considering Soulless Sam thought Sam with a soul was weak and he might see acting like Dean to be a way to fly under the radar, but for me, Soulless Sam fell way short

I agree with your observations but thinking on @Myrelle's observation in regards to You Can't Handle the Truth and Dean's comparison to Sam's actions with his own: 

Quote

 

DEAN
I thought he was a monster. But now I think...
 

VERITAS
Now you think what?
 

DEAN
He's just acting like me.
 

VERITAS
What do you mean?
 

DEAN
It's the gig.
 

SAM's knife is almost through the rope.
 

DEAN
You're covered in blood until you're covered in your own blood. Half the time, you're about to die. Like right now. I told myself I wanted out... that I wanted a family.
 

VERITAS
But you were lying.
 

DEAN
No. But what I'm good at... is slicing throats. I ain't a father. I'm a killer. And there's no changing that. I know that now.

 

Given the narrative it makes you wonder if that's what the writers were going for.

Edited September 8, 2018 by DeeDee79

[DeeDee79]

24 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

This makes a lot of sense, and I agree that this is when they really started connecting. I still think that their shared screw up though helped in the long run - and I could see some beginnings of understanding in season 7 from Castiel - because unlike Castiel and Dean, Sam and Castiel otherwise didn't have a "profound bond." Their bond was in understanding how it felt to screw up and disappoint Dean.

For me I didn't see it until later and it's largely because Cas was essentially Leviathan!Cas and Crazy!Cas in season 7. Between the megalomaniac and the mental patient ( not to mention Emmanuel ) there wasn't much to go on regarding his understanding of the damage that he had done to Sam and Dean.

Edited September 8, 2018 by DeeDee79

[Myrelle]

9 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

I agree with your observations but thinking on @Myrelle's observation in regards to You Can't Handle the Truth and Dean's comparison to Sam's actions with his own: 

Given the narrative it makes you wonder if that's what the writers were going for.

 

And we also had all of the attempted Dean-like snark and Dean-like success with the ladies and Dean-like badassity and strategizing from Sam in many of those first half of S6 episodes. This, in addition to the summer hiatus rhetoric from JP, was more than enough to convince me of what she was trying to do. 

I remember that time in the fandom very well and I further remember the relief and applause from pretty much all segments of the fandom after Appointment in Samarra aired going into the winter hiatus of that season, too, with her mused-upon full season of SoullessSam done away with even while we were being apprised of the thought of that.

And S6 did seem to be cobbled together after that, IMO. They were lucky to have still had some decent writers back then. I've always felt that it was Gamble's intention to have had Sam be in cahoots with Crowley concerning his soullessness up until they decided to change horses mid-stream and make Cas into the bad guy with Ben Edlund doing her a big, big favor via his writing of The Man Who would Be King.

Edited September 8, 2018 by Myrelle

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, DeeDee79 said:

For me I didn't see it until later and it's largely because Cas was essentially Leviathan!Cas and Crazy!Cas in season 7. Between the megalomaniac and the mental patient ( not to mention Emmanuel ) there wasn't much to go on regarding his understanding of the damage that he had done to Sam and Dean.

Oh, I agree with this in terms of actual interaction, but I think Castiel was starting to get an idea in season 7... And I got this mostly from how Castiel was realizing how badly he'd messed up in the first episode of season 7. "I'm ashamed. I really overreached" ... "I'm gonna find a way to redeem myself to you... I mean it, Dean." I think that was the first time Castiel really admitted such a thing and started to actually feel that he messed up... This was much different for me than season 5 where Castiel conveniently ignores his own bad choices even as he is chastising Sam for his - best example being "I Believe the Children..." Or in the case of his interactions with Dean, blaming Dean for his choosing Dean's side... which happened a few times in season 5, but most violently in "Point of No Return."

For me, it took Castiel really messing up for him to finally admit some culpability for his own actions and to really feel what it was like to screw up and feel fallible (a human thing)... which is why I liked this trajectory and story arc for Cas. I think it was important for his growth, and until he really screwed up and felt what it was like to do so, I think he wasn't really going to understand or think of humans as anything but belonging to a lesser club. Because in that alternate future - if that was really a possible future - not even being mostly human did it.

I think it took the combination of being human and having made a big mistake for Castiel to really understand what it was like to be fallible and "human."***

***

Spoiler

And while Castiel messed up again with the falling angels, really in my opinion, that was partially exacerbated by his mind being screwed up and because he was gullible, which while a flaw I guess, isn't quite the same as what happened in season 6... and really, just my opinion, but I thought the season 6 arc was much better conceptualized and done than whatever the hell they did with Castiel in season 8. I'll understand if others disagree, but for me that whole thing was just awful, a waste of Amanda Tapping / Naomi - what the hell was that even supposed to be about - and I can't even relay how much I hated season 8... for every character. Just no.... except Benny. Benny was the only character in the entire season who looked even somewhat good (which in itself was kind of a cop out, because I would've found him more interesting if he'd been revealed to be more complex and less the little vampire who could), and had a decent story.... And there's something really wrong about that, in my opinion.

Edited September 8, 2018 by AwesomO4000
crap spoilers... sorry.

[AwesomO4000]

50 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

And we also had all of the attempted Dean-like snark and Dean-like success with the ladies and Dean-like badassity and strategizing from Sam in many of those first half of S6 episodes.

I don't remember Sam previously not having had "success with the ladies" when he's wanted it. Sure, Dean seems to get more - at least offscreen. Onscreen I'd say it was about equal - but Sam's had his own share of ladies who have preferred him at times as well. And Sam has had his own times of bad-assery too. Really when that started to fall by the wayside was season 8 - 10

Spoiler

when Dean got the powers and took over most of the bad-guy killing -

but up until that point, Sam had plenty of his own heroics and times when he was badass, so I didn't see what happened in season 6 as all that much different from previously myself... except for Sam being a sociopath that is. I would more say that season 6 was similar to season 4 - where the indication was also that Sam was a little off - more than trying to make Sam like Dean.

And even though Soulless Sam had some snark, I never found it to be Dean-like with maybe the exception of "Clap Your Hands..." and by then we and Dean knew Sam was soulless so he could be a little freer. But up until that episode, I found Soulless Sam's snark to be much colder and almost cruel compared to Dean's with "All Dogs Go to Heaven" being a good example. Even Sam's snark in "Clap Your Hands..." had a cavalier almost cruel edge to it that I don't see in Dean's snark. Your Miles May Vary.

50 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

And S6 did seem to be cobbled together after that, IMO.

I thought the second half of season 6 was great. I liked Sam getting his soul back and the ramifications of that, I liked the Eve arc, I was truly surprised by the Crowley / Castiel reveal and how that tied in with the monster gathering and the souls, and thinking back on the season at the time of the reveal, I thought it was great - so if that was cobbled together: good job in my opinion, because it looked like it had been considered from the start... for me anyway.

1 hour ago, DeeDee79 said:

Given the narrative it makes you wonder if that's what the writers were going for.

I guess not knowing anything beforehand I didn't get any vibes in this regard. I just found Soulless Sam and Dean to be too different to come to this conclusion. It more seemed to me to parallel season 4... because usually when Sam is "dominant" between the two of them, for me it tends to point to something being seriously wrong with Sam... and season 6 was no exception to this rule.

In regards to this episode in particular, as I said above, Dean has been an unreliable narrator concerning himself before, so I just thought that this was another example of that, especially since poor Dean was seriously being put through the wringer with no one believing him about something being wrong with Sam and thereby wondering if something was seriously wrong with himself for wanting to murder Sam in his sleep. That had to be messing with Dean's head and making him question if he had a killer's mentality, because how could it not?

Though the thought of Soulless Sam trying to mimic Dean to fly under the radar is an intriguing one for me, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if Jared had been playing Soulless Sam that way. I thought that Jared did a really good job considering I don't think he had all of the facts concerning what Soulless Sam was supposed to be. I could tell right off that something was off, but couldn't tell what, since Soulless Sam was just enough "Sam" to make it a mystery.

 

But hell, I could be entirely wrong... who knows? Since it didn't translate onto the screen for me though, and the reveal of what Soulless Sam did didn't bear that out - since as I said above Dean on his worst day couldn't be compared to that - I can at worst say that there was a course correction, and if so at least Gamble was open to that and smart enough to actually make that course correction rather than shove her original vision down out throats and just insinuate that we just weren't "getting it", and for me that's better than some.

Edited September 8, 2018 by AwesomO4000