A New Beginning: OUAT 2.0

[Camera One]

6 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Characters like Facilier are meant to have ambiguous intentions until the big reveal episode, but I hate how it doesn't matter leading up to it. There's no real clues to hint at what they're actually planning. The writers could go two completely directions because of how vague the character's actions are. Most of the time, it doesn't even make sense.

This is a huge writing flaw, because characters tread water until their big reveal.  Like Gothel being MIA for three episodes and we still have no idea of the horrible thing she's planning.  That's why with this show, it's often unclear whether they even have a plan.  They always say they do in hindsight, but their credibility is questionable.  Finding out she's thousands of years old and a tree nymph didn't really give any "ohhhh" moments when looking back at her actions so far in Season 7.   In fact, it makes her seem like a blithering idiot for not realizing Alice would also have magic tree nymph powers. 

Plus what happened to Gothel's thirst for Rumple's dagger?  What does that have to do with anything?

2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

They also haven't clarified what will count as "breaking" or what, exactly, it is that will kill Henry. It doesn't seem like poison will kill him just for remembering who he really is (then again, there was Hook not knowing he was a Dark One just because he didn't remember), so would breaking the memory part of the curse do it? If it's that it was a magical poison and the only way to save him was to get him to the World Without Magic, then wouldn't Anastasia and Gothel doing magic all over the place have meant there was enough magic in the world to hurt Henry? It's no longer a World Without Magic. 

The whole concept of what counts as a Curse "breaking" has always been questionable, especially when we found out amnesia was just an additional ingredient that could be added/removed/tweaked in a Dark Curse.  

If Dr. Facilier knew how to cure Henry, why give Roni a flask of magic in "Sisterhood"?  Why not just do it then and there?   And why did he need the special trust beignet sugar powder to power the voodoo dolls?  The magic he used to apparate Rumple into his car couldn't power voodoo dolls?  

Edited May 4, 2018 by Camera One

[Camera One]

http://ew.com/tv/2018/05/04/once-upon-a-time-season-7-timeline/:

Quote

It’s been the question plaguing Once Upon a Time fans throughout the show’s rebooted seventh season: What the heck is going on with the timeline?

At the close of season 6, the show jumped ahead in time. A cursed, grown-up Henry (Andrew J. West) was living in Seattle when he’s approached by his daughter, Lucy (Alison Fernandez), to help save his family. The scene left many fans scratching their heads, wondering how it would be possible for Henry to already have an 8-year-old daughter.

Friday’s episode finally answered that question, as Regina (Lana Parrilla) desperately tried to convince a still-cursed Henry that she’s actually his mother. She tries to explain that Eloise (Emma Booth) cast a curse on them that actually sent them back in time, meaning a younger version of Henry is still currently living in Storybrooke at that very moment.

Were fans confused at the end of Season 6 why Henry already had an 8-year-old daughter?  I thought that confusion came from the Season 7 premiere when we saw 18 year old Henry leaving Storybrooke, and if you did the math, he got someone pregnant at 20, yet he looked ten years older when he met his love interest.

And more "clarification" from Adam:

Quote

Kate Watson‏ @KateW6677 3

Don’t know why I still care bc this season is so bad but:

1)Why haven’t Regina and Zelena aged?

2) Henry was still cool with not seeing Emma and co. for YEARS while he lived in EF2??? Seems pretty sloppy (just like the terrible Wish Realm eps in S6.)

Adam Horowitz‏  @AdamHorowitzLA

@KateW6677  He DID see them during those years

Edited May 5, 2018 by Camera One

[RolloTomasi]

I cannot wait for Adam to have to tweet into the void because nobody will be running to him for non-answers anymore. 

[Kktjones]

On 12/6/2017 at 5:51 PM, Kktjones said:

the reason Emma (or anyone else from SB) is not involved is because HH is in 2017, while SB is several years ahead of that. So during 2017 in Storybrook, Henry was still a 16 year old living at home and all was well. 

the reason they can't call Emma for help or that she wouldn't come to help (which is totally in-character for her) is because of the time-travel aspect.

I haven't been following this season very closely, but I'm not sure how last night's show explained any of the timeline issues. In fact, I didn't think any of it was new information (i.e. I made these posts back in early December). The problems still exist - why is Robin older than Neal? Why haven't Zelena or Regina aged? Why does Henry look the same now as he did when he first met Cinderella over 10 years ago? Also things like Alice meeting Cinderella's mother and so on. And don't get me started about the wish realm and the nonsense that raises. I just can't with this show.

P.S. Regal Believer is a creepy relationship and you can't convince me otherwise. A mid-30s man with a wife and child has a TLK with his mother. Yeah, hard pass. 

[CCTC]

13 minutes ago, Kktjones said:

P.S. Regal Believer is a creepy relationship and you can't convince me otherwise. A mid-30s man with a wife and child has a TLK with his mother. Yeah, hard pass. 

I can actually appreciate how they did that to show the evolution of their relationship - although it would have  had more impact if you saw it evolve instead of Henry just doing a 180 in season 2 or 3 and go from being wary of her to her biggest cheerleader.  Maybe show Regina slowly earn his respect and an unconditional love over a handful of seasons instead of one episode.  It also did not help that Henry showed a lot more emotion and passion in that scene than he ever did with Ella.  Maybe if there would have been some more impassioned scenes with his wife the Regina scene would have seemed more parent-child.

[Rumsy4]

I don't see the necessity of showing the evolution of their relationship because for one, Henry and Regina already had a TLK in Season 3, and for another, Henry 'evolved' into Regina's biggest cheerleader in Season 2 and has been stuck there ever since. 

This is the kid who made break-up baskets for his mother as a pre-teen. Not surprised they still have a co-dependent borderline creepy relationship.

Edited May 5, 2018 by Rumsy4

[CCTC]

2 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

I don't see the necessity of showing the evolution of their relationship because for one, Henry and Regina already had a TLK in Season 3, and for another, Henry 'evolved' into Regina's biggest cheerleader in Season 2 and has been stuck there ever since. 

I agree, I meant it would have been nice if there had been a more gradual evolution instead of Henry out of the blue becoming a major cheerleader in season 2.  If it would have been done over time and felt earned, it could have been a moment that had an emotional impact.  Instead it was just a very predictable scene with some creepy undertones.

[Rumsy4]

I don't buy this nonsense that Wish Rumple is somehow more evil that Rumple Prime. According to A&E, it's because he didn't have Belle or Bae's modulating influence as they'd died. But come on...Rumple Prime got very good at hiding his evil plans from Belle and Bae, and then was typically thwarted at the last minute. He took on all the Darkness from the previous DOs and has done way more evil things than Wish Rumple in the time their timelines diverged simply becasue WRumple was imprisoned in a dungeon for a long time. 

Oh, and btw, great job "hero" Regina! She not only managed to kill Wish Snowing, she also unleashed Wish Rumple into the world. Between that, unleashing Clone Queen, encouraging Zelena to pursue Hades, getting Lily's blood to rewrite her story, teaching Drizella magic, and casting the Dark Curse to save her son's life, Regina has been responsible for as much damage as a 'hero' as when she was an outright villain. 

[KingOfHearts]

I'm actually kind of hyped for Wish Rumple. That didn't seem like something the writers would ever revisit. I've always wanted Rumple to be the final villain of the show, and this sort of makes it work while retaining Rumple's half-assed redemption. His appearance was pretty shocking and made me grin. However, he's definitely not worse than Rumple Prime. Rumple has the power and darkness of every Dark One who has ever lived. Wish Rumple only has his own. Rumple Prime could easily kill him, but he's not going to because of Ghost!Belle.

As much as I dislike Jacinda and Lucy, there was absolutely no reason the TLK shouldn't have worked with them. Henry had belief both times he kissed them. He had proof right in front of him that something was off about his reality, yet it took a phone call to his younger self? Anything else you'd like to pull out of your butts, writers?

[Camera One]

Everyone guessed right that they would wrap up everything from Season 7 in the penultimate episode.  Except for Whook & Alice's poisoned hearts, since they need to extend that climax to the finale to keep them relevant.  

They sure are getting a lot of mileage out of the Wish Realm.  We predicted Wish Rumple to enter the story in the backend of Season 6, and then the beginning of Season 7, but it looks like they were saving him for the final 2 hours of this season.  Or they decided to do this when they realized they were cancelled and they wouldn't be able to use Gothel and Facilier in Season 8.  I'm assuming Wish Rumple could not have been part of Season 8 since Robert Carlyle would have left by then.

Surely, Rumple With All The Powers of the Dark One could imprison Wish Rumple WITHOUT killing him?  It's not like there were two options - execution or cowering helplessly clutching a photo album and doing nothing.

Edited May 5, 2018 by Camera One

[Camera One]

I was thinking about this "timeline twist" that Adam is trumpeting.

In the interim, it first left viewers wondering whether Henry got a woman pregnant as a teen.  Then, it made viewers wonder if the Writers miscalculated the time since there seemed to be years before Henry and Jacinda got married, and Emma/Hook/Regina looked exactly the same when they visited Henry in the Disenchanted Forest.  

I really wonder at the logic of not revealing a "twist" for 20 episodes, when it only resulted in viewers jumping to horrible conclusions, either damaging to the characters (eg. Henry) or to the intelligence of the writing team (or lackthereof).

So was this timeline twist conceived before Season 7 was written?  Or did they come up with it when they heard all these questions after Season 7 premiered and they needed a way to explain it? 

I suppose they must have conceived of it before Season 7, since ultimately, it explains why Emma, Snowing, etc. in Storybrooke weren't coming to Hyperion Heights to help.

Edited May 5, 2018 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

Is the timeline twist just the fact that the curse brought them back in time? Because I thought we knew that pretty much all along. The first guess before the season aired was that Henry went to a world where time moved faster, and so he left at the end of the school year, and in his new world he grew up and had a family, and then the curse brought him back. When it became obvious that this wasn't what happened, we knew that the curse must have brought them back in time, especially when we got Robyn's age and knew that much time had passed. There was no indication that this was in the future.

But they still kind of screwed it up because Henry should have been 16 and finishing his sophomore year in the present, not 18 and graduating. One of the writers even said something earlier this season about how the scene of Henry leaving town was in the future when someone asked if Henry dropped out of high school.

And they still haven't explained how none of the adults have aged at all as more than two decades have passed.

Plus, this "twist" isn't that clever because it's so blatantly obviously just so they didn't have to create what our world would look like more than 20 years in the future. There was no reason for Gothel to send them back in time with the curse. Even the bit about the Storybrooke people not coming to help doesn't justify it because how are they to know everyone's in Seattle? They might have been tearing up the multiverse looking for them, for all we know, without stumbling upon Seattle. We also would have needed some kind of onscreen indication that there was enough contact with Storybrooke for anyone to know they were missing. That's come up in tweets, but there hasn't been a single onscreen mention that they have any contact at all with Storybrooke, let alone are in contact often enough to be aware that something's wrong. We don't know if Henry has spoken to Emma once other than when he called for help. There has been no mention about whether he even knows if his younger sibling was born. Robyn and Zelena didn't give any updates about the family, other than that Hook is still sheriffing. We wouldn't have to see it happen onscreen, just maybe Ella saying something about remembering that he's supposed to contact his other parents that day, or Regina offering to set up a magical Skype session when Lucy was born so he could show her off to the rest of the family.

[Camera One]

12 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

There was no reason for Gothel to send them back in time with the curse.

That's a really good point, since we're thinking all the practical reasons, but really, there was no in-show reason for Gothel to do this.  A lot of her actions throughout the season can't be explained now that we have all the information we're going to get.  

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

Is the timeline twist just the fact that the curse brought them back in time? Because I thought we knew that pretty much all along. The first guess before the season aired was that Henry went to a world where time moved faster, and so he left at the end of the school year, and in his new world he grew up and had a family, and then the curse brought him back.

This isn't even realms moving faster. This is overt time travel that breaks their universe's own rules. It's funny how the writers used to be adamantly against time travel, then there was that isolated affair in the S3 finale that didn't change much. Now we've got wacky timelines and time travel for no reason other than, "we want to keep our actors young and the show set in present day, plus we don't want to care any more." 

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

We predicted Wish Rumple to enter the story in the backend of Season 6, and then the beginning of Season 7, but it looks like they were saving him for the final 2 hours of this season. 

We even saw Wish Rumple earlier this season. I wouldn't have guessed it was foreshadowing. (But let's be real, it probably wasn't intended to be.) 

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

They sure are getting a lot of mileage out of the Wish Realm.

It's puzzling. When the Wish Realm was originally introduced, it was clear the writers had no intention of delving any deeper than surface level, lest they admit Regina murdered Wish!Snowing. I would have preferred the Wish Realm getting a heavier focus instead of being sprinkled across 22 episodes. That would have been far less confusing for seeing alternate versions of the characters. Instead, the Wish versions just turn up at random times and we need to backtrack in our minds to remember who's who. Casual watchers get turned off by that kind of needless complexity. I don't hate the Wish Realm concept or alternate versions of the characters, but they only service the plot as necessary as placeholders. (e.g. Hook needs to be with Emma so we'll use WHook, Rumple can't be evil again so we'll use WRumple, etc.)

[Camera One]

Now that the story is complete, why the Coven of Eight?  What was the significance of 8?  What's the difference between a regular witch's magic and Gothel's Tree Nymph magic?  Why did that random criminal earlier in the season have the Coven of Eight tattoo?  How did random cop know that the witches were being rewarded by becoming a tree in the sacred grove?  

Is anyone hoping for a spinoff featuring Gothel The Evil Tree?

[Free]

On ‎5‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 1:19 PM, Shanna Marie said:

There was no reason for Gothel to send them back in time with the curse.

Normally there wouldn't be and had the show not ended, it probably wouldn't have happened.

It's a contrived way of ending all these current subplots and moving on with the final Wishverse/Storybrooke episodes and having a cameofest of the original characters back one final time as a rushed wrap up.

[Camera One]

I was thinking about someone who quit after Episode 4 of Season 7 and they're coming back to watch the 2-hour series finale, and what they would be wondering about and whether any of the intervening stuff is relevant.

- Mother Gothel:  They would not have known about Mother Gothel at all (though they would have seen her briefly as Victoria's prisoner in Episode 3).  The fact that she's Alice's mother is a moot point, unless they're going to show Alice dealing with that next episode

- Serial Killer/Nick:  This took up quite a bit of time in 7B, but again, it didn't have any lasting consequence.  For awhile, it seemed like the point was to get Henry to remember/believe, but he did a 180 in "Is This Henry Mills" and ultimately, he believed for a completely different reason.

- Dr. Facilier:  They would never have seen him since he first appeared in Episode 5.   Although Facilier was the one who got the poison out of Henry, that plot contrivance wasn't mentioned until Episode 6 ("Wake Up Call"), so viewers who quit would not know Henry could have died.   The only reason Facilier might be relevant is if Regina grieves his death next episode.

- Zelena's brief visit:  I guess people might wonder about her normal boyfriend, but it's not like he was developed beyond the 10 minutes he was onscreen in "Chosen".  

- Jacinda's Backstory/Tremaine/Drizella/Anastasia: A viewer might wonder where they all went, but saying Tremaine died and Drizella/Anastasia left would pretty much suffice.  They would not know Drizella was the mastermind behind the Curse.  None of this backstory is relevant to fighting Wish Rumple.

If we look at the characters who are left - Henry, Jacinda, Lucy, Regina, Whook, Rumple, Alice, Robyn, Tiana and Drew - I'm not sure if any of their Hyperion Heights experiences affected them since they're all pretty much back in the same state as before the Curse.

So ultimately, the only major but relevant piece that new viewers would miss would be Alice and Robyn falling in love, and the backstory for how Whook came to father Alice and their poisoned hearts.  I'm not sure how relevant The Guardian is anymore.  

Edited May 7, 2018 by Camera One

[Camera One]

This was from the THR interview in March.

Quote

According to Kitsis, that murderer will remain a central figure in upcoming episodes. "Someone is, we will find out, killing witches. So while Gothel is trying to assemble a coven, someone is trying to knock them off, and that is what we're going to be seeing for the next little bit," he said.

"The coven story and the serial-killer story and what Gothel wants sort of intertwine," Kitsis said.

It hardly intertwined.  We never really saw Gothel "trying to assemble a Coven".  She was MIA for most of the serial-killer storyline.  We have no idea if she knew who the murderer was, or if she was concerned for her Coven, or what.  

Nick targeted Drizella and Zelena.  Zelena wasn't even in the Coven and Gothel clearly didn't need Drizella to be part of the spell at the end.  

Quote

Added Horowitz, "It becomes less an external mystery and starts to reflect back on our central people in a really direct way."

Again, how?  I suppose he could argue this for Zelena's retcon.  But how did the serial killer storyline "reflect back" on Regina?  Rumple?  

Quote

"At the end of the day, she was able to reclaim who she was, and I think that's always been a message on the show," Kitsis said. "This is not a show where we expect you to be perfect, this is a show where we all say, 'OK, every day we make mistakes, but it's how you come back from them.' We felt like that was a fitting ending, and also Ivy now has to deal with what happens when you spend your entire life hating someone and then you realize you shouldn't have [because] they really liked you. Now where do you put that hate?"

Ivy "dealt with it" by making nice for a few episodes and then deciding it was worth it to sacrifice her own sister, and then we're supposed to be happy that she would get a happy ending with that same sister she backstabbed that same hour.

Quote

"[Rumple] has a very, very tough mission, which is to resist his darker impulses so that he can keep his heart clean and go back to Belle, and that's going to be challenged," said Kitsis, adding, "As Weaver or as Rumple or as Gold, he is the Dark One who wields the most powerful dark magic, and at some point, someone's going to want that knife. We're going to see a couple of people go after him in this second half, and it's going to be very tough for him to not punch back."

We never even saw Gothel try to get the dagger, beyond Drizella mentioning it in dialogue.  At the end of the day, he didn't resist his "darker impulses" since he sacrificed Henry for the magic to find the dagger.  And again, that will "keep his heart clean" for Belle?

Quote

 That's really what it comes down to, and so do I regret [the reboot]? Absolutely not because I would regret it more if I was trying to string along this without Snow and Charming and being like, 'We got a letter from Snow today! Let's go to the library!' 

If this season wasn't "stringing along", I don't know what is.  They weren't stringing along Snowing, but they sure were stringing along Rumple and Regina, despite them being onscreen.

[Free]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

This was from the THR interview in March.

It hardly intertwined.  We never really saw Gothel "trying to assemble a Coven".  She was MIA for most of the serial-killer storyline.  We have no idea if she knew who the murderer was, or if she was concerned for her Coven, or what.  

Nick targeted Drizella and Zelena.  Zelena wasn't even in the Coven and Gothel clearly didn't need Drizella to be part of the spell at the end.  

Again, how?  I suppose he could argue this for Zelena's retcon.  But how did the serial killer storyline "reflect back" on Regina?  Rumple?  

Ivy "dealt with it" by making nice for a few episodes and then deciding it was worth it to sacrifice her own sister, and then we're supposed to be happy that she would get a happy ending with that same sister she backstabbed that same hour.

We never even saw Gothel try to get the dagger, beyond Drizella mentioning it in dialogue.  At the end of the day, he didn't resist his "darker impulses" since he sacrificed Henry for the magic to find the dagger.  And again, that will "keep his heart clean" for Belle?

If this season wasn't "stringing along", I don't know what is.  They weren't stringing along Snowing, but they sure were stringing along Rumple and Regina, despite them being onscreen.

None of it mattered, these were all pointless subplots that went nowhere, even from 7a to 7b alone, there are so many discrepancies that don't add up.

The Candy Killer only targeted random nobodies and it had no effect on Gothel whatsoever, in fact his revenge was more focused on Drizella and Zelena, both of whom left almost immediately and had nothing to do with the final showdown with Gothel

[Inquirer]

3 hours ago, Free said:

The Candy Killer only targeted random nobodies and it had no effect on Gothel whatsoever, in fact his revenge was more focused on Drizella and Zelena, both of whom left almost immediately and had nothing to do with the final showdown with Gothel

Facilier even killed him because he gave him his memories back specifically expecting him to go kill Gothel, and was pissed off that he had instead gone after random people.

[Free]

6 minutes ago, Inquirer said:

Facilier even killed him because he gave him his memories back specifically expecting him to go kill Gothel, and was pissed off that he had instead gone after random people.

Exactly, a complete waste of time, this last episode was awkwardly rushing to wrap this up so they can get to the Wishverse stuff for the 2 part finale.

[tennisgurl]

It really is crazy how many subplots were set up this season, and how quickly they were all ditched. Now its the end game, end of the whole series, and you know whats probably going to come into play? Not Victoria and her gentrification. Not Ivy and her sister drama. Not whatever the Guardian was. Not Nick the Witch Killer. Not Gothel and her Coat hangers. Not Faciliar. Its Wish Rumple. For some reason. Honestly, what was the point of any of this?!?!

Some of the rush is probably due to the cancellation, but that doesn't explain all of it, and it doesn't make the constant switching of pointless subplots and lame villains any better. It really is near the pinnacle of the A&E model of getting distracted by any shiny thing they see, and ditching what has already been set up.

[Camera One]

The fact that all of this season took place in 2017 makes it even more ridiculous that Gothel needed the freak'in DARK CURSE to get to The World Without Magic.  Storybrooke exists.  The Walls (no, not those Walls) are already down.  Gothel and her Coven could have gotten to The World Without Magic by magic bean, shadow, mermaid, rabbit, magic door, cyclone, wardrobe made of magic wood (surely Gothel had an "in" with that), etc.  

What was the point of resurrecting Madame Leota if she could just get some random nameless witches to be part of her Coat Hanger family?  Why would Madame Leota want to end up as a tree?  Why conduct a Hunger Games to choose a witch?  Why not just recruit them all so she had more than she needed?  

She could clearly carry out her plan without Anastasia, so why go to all that trouble to find The Guardian?  

Edited May 7, 2018 by Camera One

[Free]

49 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

It really is crazy how many subplots were set up this season, and how quickly they were all ditched. Now its the end game, end of the whole series, and you know whats probably going to come into play? Not Victoria and her gentrification. Not Ivy and her sister drama. Not whatever the Guardian was. Not Nick the Witch Killer. Not Gothel and her Coat hangers. Not Faciliar. Its Wish Rumple. For some reason. Honestly, what was the point of any of this?!?!

Some of the rush is probably due to the cancellation, but that doesn't explain all of it, and it doesn't make the constant switching of pointless subplots and lame villains any better. It really is near the pinnacle of the A&E model of getting distracted by any shiny thing they see, and ditching what has already been set up.

Even the subplots in 7a were abandoned in 7b before the announcement happened.

[Shanna Marie]

After seeing the comments on their Facebook post of the EW article about the brilliant time travel twist revelation, I guess it wasn't so obvious. It seems like half the comments were of the "Duh, didn't we know this all along? I thought it was obvious" variety, and the rest were "OMG! Mind blown! What a twist!"

I'm getting the impression that the general audience for this show isn't very smart. At least, not the ones commenting on Facebook. There were way too many people to whom this revelation was a total surprise and who didn't understand it at all and had to have it explained to them. And they were still asking why the people in Storybrooke didn't know the Hyperion Heights people were missing.

Adding to the list of pointless things: The whole revolution plot in the flashbacks. Not only did the entire revolution take place offscreen, it was utterly irrelevant because the king and Victoria ended up having nothing to do with the real story. And I'm not sure why Gothel needed to trick Drizella into wanting to cast the curse. Couldn't she have skipped the middleman and just coerced Regina into casting it? And that's aside from the issue that it never seemed to occur to her to have anything to do with her half-wood nymph daughter who might have inherited her magic while she was out recruiting witches.

[KingOfHearts]

2 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

I'm getting the impression that the general audience for this show isn't very smart. At least, not the ones commenting on Facebook. There were way too many people to whom this revelation was a total surprise and who didn't understand it at all and had to have it explained to them. And they were still asking why the people in Storybrooke didn't know the Hyperion Heights people were missing.

I think some people just post for the sake of posting. They don't really pay attention to the show. If marketing says it's a shocking twist, they're going to go along with it. It's like the bandwagon effect.

[Camera One]

Quotes from THR interview in December 2017.

Quote

Fun entrance aside, there are some serious implications to Zelena waking up — namely, she's engaged to be married.

"What that curse life is and was becomes very important and something she has to wrestle with in a serious way," Horowitz says. "The fiance is a real thing. She really does have one, and we really will be exploring that in the second half of the season. 

There's that word again - "exploring".  I think he meant "barely skimming the surface".

Quote

Mother Gothel had been pulling the strings the whole time, thanks to her "Coven of the Eight," a group of eight witches that Horowitz and Kitsis say we'll meet in the second half of the season. (Regina and Zelena, of course, are two members.)

Another mis-use of a word.  We'll "meet" the Coven of Eight?  He meant we'll "see" the Coven of Eight.  Except there wasn't even eight.  

Quote

"We're going to see some witches from Disney lore," Kitsis says. "And, at the same time, I think we're seeing that Mother Gothel believes in drawing strength from numbers. So whatever dastardly plan she has for the second half of the season, she's forming a gang."

Actually, no one in the eventual Coven of 8 in the latest episode was from Disney lore.  Strength from numbers?  Gothel was clearly a lone wolf.

Quote

We have a lot of new locations, and we're in the city, so there's a lot of figuring out what kinds of stories we could tell versus what our plans were. That's always a balancing act."

I thought planning went before choosing new locations.  They figured out AFTERWARDS what "kinds of stories" they could tell?  

Quote

Adds Horowitz, "The thing about self-criticism is we do it all the time. We try to hold every story and every script and every episode up to the highest standards. 

I think we need this last quote again for a hearty laugh.

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

I think we need this last quote again for a hearty laugh.

Oh, most definitely.

[Shanna Marie]

On 5/7/2018 at 9:24 PM, KingOfHearts said:

I think some people just post for the sake of posting. They don't really pay attention to the show. If marketing says it's a shocking twist, they're going to go along with it. It's like the bandwagon effect.

It did seem like most of the people who didn't catch that Hyperion Heights had been in the present, and therefore time travel had to be involved, were the same ones who talked about this being the best season ever and chiding those haters who got the show canceled by being negative about this season. So, A&E's sock puppets?

I was thinking about Gothel's scheme, and putting it in chronological order makes it utterly insane:
Gothel is a wood nymph in prehistoric Victorian Dynasty Seattle who is fascinated by humans. But when the prehistoric Victorian Heathers she thinks are her friends wipe out all the super-powerful magical wood nymphs, she goes Carrie on them with her superpowers, killing all humans and eradicating all magic, turning it into a World Without Magic. Vowing to come back for more revenge after they've evolved again, she uses a magic bean to jump to another world -- where apparently she spends thousands of years living among humans. She apparently doesn't think about breeding her own army of half-wood nymphs who'd have powers like hers and could rule over humans or help her invade the World Without Magic again. For Reasons, she needs to find the Guardian, a person who apparently gets magical powers for being super good. She locks Rapunzel in the tower when Rapunzel is willing to sacrifice for her family, then tempts her after she escapes. After Rapunzel fails the Guardian test, the next target is Anastasia, who dies trying to save her stepsister from falling through the ice. But Rapunzel doesn't want her daughter revived and stuck in a tower, so she makes Gothel's spell backfire on her so she's stuck in the tower. Gothel gets her chance to escape when WHook comes looking for the magical flower. Instead of seducing him right then, she sends him to get the flower, taking a chance that he'll come back like he promised. She conceives and gives birth to Alice, using her presence as someone in her bloodline to allow her to escape from the tower. It doesn't seem to occur to her that her daughter might have inherited her magic or might be the Guardian, and she makes no effort to win over her daughter. Instead, she lets WHook raise her and they develop a bond, until for Reasons Gothel decides to poison his heart to keep him away from Alice. Alice eventually escapes with no apparent ill effects to Gothel, so there's no reason she needed to keep Alice in the tower or keep her father away from her. Instead of cultivating and training her own daughter, she recruits and tests random girls with magical powers and cons Drizella into casting the dark curse Drizella got fixated upon after hearing about it from Regina (even though Regina ended up being the one to actually cast it, they seemed to have given the impression that Gothel was helping Drizella get the curse cast). Although Gothel engineered the whole thing, she makes her curse identity be as Rapunzel/Victoria's prisoner, and she gives Victoria information on how to revive Anastasia so that she'll have a Guardian (instead of, you know, dealing with her own daughter). Then she does a spell to revive Lucy after the spell to revive Anastasia nearly kills her. She spends some time messing with Rogers, demanding to see his artwork, etc., while a serial killer targets her coven. Finally, when it's time to cast her spell, she kidnaps Rogers and uses him as a hostage to force her daughter (the one she only just seems to have realized might have inherited her power) to participate in her spell that will allow her to wipe out humanity again in revenge for the pre-historic Heathers.

It's not even remotely coherent.

[Camera One]

Don't forget Gothel wanting the Dagger, the MacGuffin of the resurrection amulet that went nowhere, how she was able to use a random cop to "wake" her sister Coven up.

They never clarified Gothel and Rumple's past.  From "One Little Tear":

RUMPLE: Why is it you call yourself "Mother Gothel"? I mean, you're no mother to them. And you're certainly no nun.

GOTHEL: "Mother" means different things to different people. I tend to their needs, as I can tend to yours.

RUMPLE: I'm fine, thanks.

GOTHEL: Are you? Because life seems to have you glum nowadays. I never thought I'd see a pout on the Dark One. Nor love in his heart. No, I suppose it's a time for firsts. How is Belle, by the way?

RUMPLE:  Don't you dare say her name.

GOTHEL: Ooh, that struck a nerve. You know you're never getting back to her. Not on your own. But with me...

----

Add Gothel to the generic Rumple/villain conversation that KingofHearts wrote up.

Edited May 9, 2018 by Camera One

[jhlipton]

7 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Should we do the rewatch spoiler-free or discuss later events?

If I participate, I'd prefer to go with spoilers.

On 5/6/2018 at 11:06 AM, Camera One said:

Is anyone hoping for a spinoff featuring Gothel The Evil Tree?

Tonight on Pay-Per-View, it's Gothel the Evil tree vs Lorax the Good Tree (as seen on Once-ler!).

Edited May 9, 2018 by jhlipton

[Camera One]

So Tiana was a series regular and Alice was a guest star for Season 7?  

I'm being a real Mary Margaret today, so I guess I'll say I was pleasantly surprised that A&E actually gave the Alice and Robyn coupling several episodes of screentime, even after their centric.  I don't remember the last time they did that with a new couple. 

What a difference from the writing for Tiana and Naveen, though.    

[ParadoxLost]

On ‎5‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 10:21 PM, Shanna Marie said:

I'm getting the impression that the general audience for this show isn't very smart. At least, not the ones commenting on Facebook. There were way too many people to whom this revelation was a total surprise and who didn't understand it at all and had to have it explained to them. And they were still asking why the people in Storybrooke didn't know the Hyperion Heights people were missing.

So I did know there had to be a time travel twist to the curse.  But I still need it explained to me.

When the curse was broken did they get plopped into 2027/2028?  Or did the curse breaking leave when they were put intact?

My mind kind of wandered and I'm not sure if the trees shooting to the sky was a Gothel thing or a time acceleration thing.

[Camera One]

On 5/7/2018 at 7:21 PM, Shanna Marie said:

After seeing the comments on their Facebook post of the EW article about the brilliant time travel twist revelation, I guess it wasn't so obvious.

I learned that at least 60 people agree Gothel was the smartest villain on the show yet.  LOL.

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, ParadoxLost said:

When the curse was broken did they get plopped into 2027/2028?  Or did the curse breaking leave when they were put intact?

I think they're still in 2018. The curse put them in that time and place, so if it were going to take them back to their time, you'd think it would take them back to their place. They keep referring to the memory spell as being the curse breaking, but the memory stuff is an add-on to the curse.

I forgot to add the time travel to my outlining of Gothel's story. The curse she encouraged Drizella to force Regina to cast, with Drizella thinking it was getting revenge on her mother (by making her a wealthy and successful developer) and Gothel's real plan being to get back to the World Without Magic, for no apparent reason takes them back in time. And I think they're coming from even farther ahead than 2027/2028, given that Robyn is 26 when the curse is cast and she was an infant at the end of season 6, which took place around 2014 (though Henry being 18 and graduating from high school in 2018 messes up Henry's timeline even worse than it already was, given that he was 10 and in fourth grade in 2011). They were in at least 2040. We don't know how far back they went in time, since we don't know if the events they referred to as taking place three years ago in our world really happened or were fake memories from the curse.

I think the only reason for the time travel was that setting it in 2040 would have meant more worldbuilding than they were up for, and more expense. They'd have to figure out the technology, what the cars would look like, etc., and that would all require serious set dressing. The time travel was just a handwave to allow them to have the next generation as characters without having to set the "real world" part in the future. There's still no explanation for the adults not aging at all in more than 20 years.

[Camera One]

I just rewatched part of Episode 5 and I was wondering about Gothel's "special tea".   Is it too late to find out its special significance?  Isn't drinking tea kinda like cannibalism to a tree nymph?

[Rumsy4]

The writers had no conception of Gothel’s true nature, goals, or motivations from beginning to end.

[Camera One]

1 minute ago, Rumsy4 said:

The writers had no conception of Gothel’s true nature, goals, or motivations from beginning to end.

I think they were just focused on making her look creepy.  I mean, that was successful even on rewatch, but all that stuff about Anastasia was so pointless I lost interest (even moreso than the first time).

Edited May 10, 2018 by Camera One

[ParadoxLost]

7 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

The writers had no conception of Gothel’s true nature, goals, or motivations from beginning to end.

Maybe they should have taken a hint from Barbara Walters and asked “If you were a tree, what kind of tree would you be?”

[Mitch]

On 5/7/2018 at 9:21 PM, Shanna Marie said:

I'm getting the impression that the general audience for this show isn't very smart. At least, not the ones commenting on Facebook. There were way too many people to whom this revelation was a total surprise and who didn't understand it at all and had to have it explained to them. And they were still asking why the people in Storybrooke didn't know the Hyperion Heights people were missing

LOL..I was thinking the same thing..and I actually felt a bit bad about it..(I don't knock people for liking something I think is stupid...) but you just can't help it. When I see people writing how GREAT the season is etc..I want to know WHY they think the season is great...really, what am I missing..but they have absolutely no follow up..and if you point out the big holes...(simple ones like, why haven't Regina and Zelena aged..how can WishHook be real but WishSnow and Charms werent..) there is complete silence...or you are told to..."Just stop watching and quit ruining it for the rest of us..." which bring out my SparkleDark and I just want to keep on posting and ruin the fun like the EQ bursting into the Charmings wedding.

I think  there is a combo of people posting on FB..people who have a sentimental attachment to the show and just overlook stuff, Evil people like myself who know the show has seen better days and just like to yank everyone's cranks, people who somehow feel like they have an "in" with the actors, writers producers if they gush over any craptastick scene, and really, really stupid people who would watch paint dry and think its interesting and "bold."

[Mitch]

13 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I think they're still in 2018. The curse put them in that time and place, so if it were going to take them back to their time, you'd think it would take them back to their place. They keep referring to the memory spell as being the curse breaking, but the memory stuff is an add-on to the curse.

I forgot to add the time travel to my outlining of Gothel's story. The curse she encouraged Drizella to force Regina to cast, with Drizella thinking it was getting revenge on her mother (by making her a wealthy and successful developer) and Gothel's real plan being to get back to the World Without Magic, for no apparent reason takes them back in time. And I think they're coming from even farther ahead than 2027/2028, given that Robyn is 26 when the curse is cast and she was an infant at the end of season 6, which took place around 2014 (though Henry being 18 and graduating from high school in 2018 messes up Henry's timeline even worse than it already was, given that he was 10 and in fourth grade in 2011). They were in at least 2040. We don't know how far back they went in time, since we don't know if the events they referred to as taking place three years ago in our world really happened or were fake memories from the curse.

I think the only reason for the time travel was that setting it in 2040 would have meant more worldbuilding than they were up for, and more expense. They'd have to figure out the technology, what the cars would look like, etc., and that would all require serious set dressing. The time travel was just a handwave to allow them to have the next generation as characters without having to set the "real world" part in the future. There's still no explanation for the adults not aging at all in more than 20 years.

They should have just said, the Black Fairy's personal assistant kidnapped Henry and Robyn and even she couldn't handle the idiocy of Henry so she dropped them back where she found them..as dumb as that is it makes more sense within the shows' universe.

Did they ever explain why Driz thought the curse would make her mother..who hated magic..miserable in the LWOM? And why does the curse take everyone to the LWOM? Can't it take them to  movie preOZ Kansas world where everything is black and white and everyone is poor on a farm and a tornado appears everyday?

[jhlipton]

15 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I think they're still in 2018. The curse put them in that time and place, so if it were going to take them back to their time, you'd think it would take them back to their place. They keep referring to the memory spell as being the curse breaking, but the memory stuff is an add-on to the curse.

So what did "breaking the curse" do?  It lifted the memories, but breaking wasn't needed for that, or the curse would have been lifted when Henry regained his memory.  It didn't transport everyone back to the WishDisEnchanted Forest.  It doesn't appear to have brought them forward in time.  It loos like all that breaking the curse did was give "memory resets" to those who hadn't received it yet.  Whoop.

[tennisgurl]

I can’t be the only one who noticed that Gothels backstory was almost identical to Tinys several seasons ago, right? Mythical creature lives apart from the world with their family, has a fascination with humans, that their family thinks is weird. Then they meet some seemingly nice humans, only for the humans to betray them and murder all their people because humans are assholes, and they become bitter and start hating all humans. Of course, with Tiny, that was just a short riff on Jack and the Beanstalk, and Tiny got over it pretty quickly. Gothel became a kinda supervillain, and it was the backstory of not only the Big Bad, but the whole freaking world. It’s not just me seeing this, right?

[Rumsy4]

2 hours ago, Mitch said:

Did they ever explain why Driz thought the curse would make her mother..who hated magic..miserable in the LWOM? And why does the curse take everyone to the LWOM? Can't it take them to  movie preOZ Kansas world where everything is black and white and everyone is poor on a farm and a tornado appears everyday?

I guess it's because Gothel wanted to come to the LWOM. Since she lived here in the pre-dawn of civilization where dinosaurs roamed the earth a victorian-type human community subsisted in the area where continental drift eventually shaped it into the north american landmass.

28 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

It’s not just me seeing this, right?

Nope. A couple of us commented on it in the episode thread. My question was how is it possible for us puny humans to wipe out giants and magical creatures like nymphs without using magic, nerve gas, or atom bombs?

Edited May 10, 2018 by Rumsy4

[tennisgurl]

3 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Nope. A couple of us commented on it in the episode thread. My question was how is it possible for us puny humans to wipe out giants and magical creatures like nymphs without using magic, nerve gas, or atom bombs?

I figured someone would, everyone here has a million times the sense of continuity and creativity then A&E ever will. Its hard to keep up with all the comments! Well, I guess humans can destroy magical creatures for no reason because magical creatures and magical people almost always come in two types on this show: Useless and hilariously easy to kill, or evil and hilariously hard to beat until the last five minutes, where they're also easy to kill. 

[Shanna Marie]

2 hours ago, jhlipton said:

So what did "breaking the curse" do?  It lifted the memories, but breaking wasn't needed for that, or the curse would have been lifted when Henry regained his memory.  It didn't transport everyone back to the WishDisEnchanted Forest.  It doesn't appear to have brought them forward in time.  It loos like all that breaking the curse did was give "memory resets" to those who hadn't received it yet.  Whoop.

That's pretty much what happened with Curse 1.0. All the Savior did was start time moving again when she decided to stay in town. Apparently, a Savior wasn't needed to break the memory part of the curse with a TLK, since Henry and Regina managed that, and they seemed to be implying that Henry and not Emma was the critical element even in the first curse. None of this explains why casting the curse kept Henry alive or why breaking the curse would kill him. Magic was already being used, so it wasn't being in a World Without Magic that kept a magical poison from killing him. I'm also not entirely sure why breaking the curse meant the poison on WHook kicked in, since magic was already in use. Maybe we're back to the Dark Hook thing, where not remembering something made it not work.

4 hours ago, Mitch said:

I was thinking the same thing..and I actually felt a bit bad about it..(I don't knock people for liking something I think is stupid...) but you just can't help it. When I see people writing how GREAT the season is etc..I want to know WHY they think the season is great...really, what am I missing..but they have absolutely no follow up..and if you point out the big holes...(simple ones like, why haven't Regina and Zelena aged..how can WishHook be real but WishSnow and Charms werent..) there is complete silence...or you are told to..."Just stop watching and quit ruining it for the rest of us..." which bring out my SparkleDark and I just want to keep on posting and ruin the fun like the EQ bursting into the Charmings wedding.

I wasn't really bashing anyone for liking this season (though I do question their taste). I was just surprised by the number of people who were not only all "OMG! They traveled in time! What a shocking twist!" but also asking how they were in the same time when Henry was a teenager (um, time travel? As was just established?), and then didn't understand how this meant that the people in Storybrooke weren't searching for them. I don't even try to engage on the show's Facebook page because I use my full real name there and so don't want to deal with any of that mess. The fans of this show tend to be a wee bit ... emotional.

[KingOfHearts]

This is one of those shows where the writers feel compelled to spoonfeed the audience whatever their intentions are. They don't do it because the audience is stupid, but because they don't do subtly well and their writing is largely superficial. If A&E want you to know something, they'll whack you on the head with a mallet until it's engraved in your brain. This show is built around GIF moments, shocking twists, accessible iconography, and just a bunch of "OMG!" It's the perfect breeding ground for obscene reactions that are only influenced by what the writers or marketing are saying in bold print. If Regina gets a ceremony where she's hailed a hero and that OUAT Facebook page posts, "Regina is finally a hero!", everyone is automatically going to comment on how far she's come. (Even if a week prior she killed someone in coldblood.) A&E have a way of talking down to the audience like they're a bunch of 5 year olds. Naturally, the people who aren't offended by that are going to react how the writers want them to.

In general, people are more easily influenced than one might think.

Edited May 10, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[superloislane]

57 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

All the Savior did was start time moving again when she decided to stay in town. Apparently, a Savior wasn't needed to break the memory part of the curse with a TLK, since Henry and Regina managed that, and they seemed to be implying that Henry and not Emma was the critical element even in the first curse.

Well no the first curse could only be broken by the Savior - they said that about 500 times. The second curse didn't have all the malicious elements baked into it-the first curse not only erased their memories but also replaced them with false identities, kept them in a time loop and made them all subservient to Regina. The second/third/seventy fifth curse didn't seem to have any of that, just some false identities in this new one and there was no Savior baked into either. And as far as I'm aware this new one had multiple people remembering with potions or something? It was definitely Emma who broke all of that otherwise why would Emma have needed to believe in the curse for it to work, why would her kiss make Graham remember and why would her mere presence influence people to remember who they are?

[jhlipton]

2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

Magic was already being used, so it wasn't being in a World Without Magic that kept a magical poison from killing him.

I was trying to remember if Rogers ever hugged or even touched Tilly while the curse was in effect.  This could be one of those few cases where A&E got it right -- that Rogers would have been affected but he never got close enough.  Maybe one of you eagle-eyes know if I'm wrong.

[ParadoxLost]

22 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

I was trying to remember if Rogers ever hugged or even touched Tilly while the curse was in effect.  This could be one of those few cases where A&E got it right -- that Rogers would have been affected but he never got close enough.  Maybe one of you eagle-eyes know if I'm wrong.

I wasn't watching that close but I don't think it was in effect before the curse broke.

I'm sure there was a scene where they didn't touch after the curse broke and Colin was acting like he was walking through a sea of pain to get closer to Alice.  And I'm sure they had been closer to each other in the prior episode.  Like riding into a car together was closer and the pain didn't kick in.