A Thread for All Seasons: This Story Is Over, But Still Goes On.

[Camera One]

Check out this deleted scene of Henry's college tour with Regina from "Is This Henry Mills".

The dialogue is a tad cringey.  What does "East Coast-y" look like?  

Quote

Adam Horowitz‏  @AdamHorowitzLA Aug 31

Replying to @JOncer4PTX @TheQueensOutlaw

My memory is the scene was perfectly fine in isolation. Well performed, directed, etc. But in the context of the entire episode we felt it wasn’t needed for the narrative and hindered the emotional impact of the episode because it played as a digression.

Well, Henry's motivations were all over the place, so it's true this scene is essentially pointless and adds nothing.  Emotional impact of the episode?  LOL!

Edited September 22, 2018 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

I feel like I need to start getting paid for writing cringey dialogue like that.

[tennisgurl]

God, thats almost a cringy as adult Henry making Jack recite whole scenes from Star Wars without bothering to show him the actual movie or explain the context. Almost.

[Shanna Marie]

Now that we're up to the Belle memory wipe plot in the rewatch, that really does seem like the most pointless plotline, especially given the amount of screen time devoted to it. It doesn't end up telling us anything about the characters. Nothing in their relationship changes in the long term. When Belle's memory is restored, she goes right back to normal, aside from having apparently been given the curse modern life download. It really just ends up being a contrived way to separate Belle and Rumple.

And it's typical for this show that they contrived something rather than using the organic issue that was already there. It would have been so much more meaningful if Belle and Rumple were split up because she learned he'd murdered his first wife, he'd lied to her about it, and she'd watched him ferociously beat a man almost to death. Most intelligent, decent people would have at least needed a break to process that. It would have been totally natural for her to avoid him after that, which would have served the same plot function, but with more emotional resonance. Rumple could have still blamed Hook for telling her and for goading Rumple into beating him in front of her. They could still have had some confrontation somewhere in town just as the stranger drove up and saw Rumple preparing a fireball, and he could have driven off the road while staring at that and hit Hook.

Rumple's deathbed phone call to Belle would have been more emotional if she knew who he was and was mad at him but torn because of him dying. Their reunion would matter more if they actually had to work things out rather than her just drinking a potion. She could have been impressed that Rumple was willing to put aside his feud with Hook to team up to save Henry, and that would have thawed things somewhat before he went to Neverland, so she might still have been willing to cooperate in the tasks he had for her. The interaction between Head Belle and Rumple would have been more powerful if Belle hadn't yet totally reconciled before they left, so he was still affected by all that. And they might have managed to actually deal with Rumple and Neal's relationship if they weren't spending all that time on the Lacey stuff. It might have been refreshing for Belle to figure out the modern stuff based on research rather than getting the curse memory download. She could have learned about the Internet and how to use it from a book and gone on from there.

So, as usual, they seem to have taken the least interesting route.

[Camera One]

This would have been the time of the year for the "Once Upon a Time" premiere.  Anyone want to have a group cry session?

[KingOfHearts]

17 hours ago, Camera One said:

This would have been the time of the year for the "Once Upon a Time" premiere.  Anyone want to have a group cry session?

I'm going to spend Friday night as if I'm watching a season premiere. I'm going to throw random objects at the TV and scream, "What the hell, Regina?!" several times over the course of an hour.

Edited September 25, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

20 hours ago, Camera One said:

This would have been the time of the year for the "Once Upon a Time" premiere.  Anyone want to have a group cry session?

I did get a bit of a pang Sunday. The premiere before the last season always seemed to come during our local convention, so I would help a bit with teardown and then find an excuse to hurry home to watch it in time. This year, I was sick and barely making it to my panels, so I was home in plenty of time, and I had a moment of thinking "oh, good, I'll be able to watch the premiere" before I remembered that there isn't one. I'm glad there isn't another season, based on the direction they were going and the quality of that final season, but I do feel a sense of loss that the show might have still been going if it had been managed a lot better.

[companionenvy]

Leaving aside the specifics of season 7, I can't be sorry that the show is over because, given the writers' wonky morality, I simply could not have trusted them not to destroy the characters further than they already had. 

When you have showrunners with no concept of a moral event horizon, anything is possible. This is most obvious in the case of actual atrocities; given that this show did not understand that, if you wanted to redeem Regina, you shouldn't give her a history that involved indiscriminate slaughter of children, there's no reason to trust them not to have given Hook a flashback episode where it turns out that he once gleefully murdered everyone on a passenger ship because its captain insulted the decorating scheme on the Jolly Roger. In relative terms, we're really lucky that the worst we got in S6 was Hook having killed David's father on illogical premises. 

But even beyond that, there's also what we might call a moral event horizon for individual characters and realms of action. In a show that includes a number of villains at various stages of redemption or lack thereof, the eggnapping isn't an objectively moral-event horizon crossing moment, but it crossed the boundary of what a good writer should have been willing to do to Snowing. Similarly, I'd say Snow and Charming's inexplicable decision to go back under the curse in the "Awake" flashback crossed the line of what they could do and still be considered good parents.

In addition, the show had become so willing to indulge in angst and emotional torture porn that I can't imagine what they would have done had the original cast stayed on for a few more seasons. At least now, even with all the other nonsense, I can imagine Emma and Hook happily raising their baby. If JM had been around for a few more seasons, the show probably would have aged up Hope in some wacky scenario in which she was separated from her parents and raised in another dimension, timestream, etc.  Maybe even by a version of Regina. Or (shudder) created a love triangle between Emma, Hook, and Wish Hook. 

Given that, I can't even regret losing the opportunity to spend more time with the characters I care about.

[daxx]

1 hour ago, companionenvy said:

Given that, I can't even regret losing the opportunity to spend more time with the characters I care about.

In retrospect I very seriously wish it had been cancelled after season 5. Season 6 had very few redeeming qualities and did quality damage to almost every character. No one escaped unscathed I don’t believe. Rumbelle, Captain Swan, Emma, Hook, Regina, Snow, Charming, Rumple, Belle, that awful Rumple and evil Queen storyline, double Regina. Hook and Emma separated for several episodes, Snowing sleeping I mean just a train wreck of a season.

[Camera One]

I treasure the time we had laughing at A&E here for 2 extra years.

I agree that the Writers could have continued to destroy the characters, but by the middle of 6A, they were clearly pretty much empty shells of their former selves.  Though I must say they still held the power to make me really angry, like when they retroactively destroyed Baelfire in that flashback with Beowulf.  

Edited September 26, 2018 by Camera One

[profdanglais]

3 hours ago, daxx said:

In retrospect I very seriously wish it had been cancelled after season 5.

Yeah, me too. Captain Swan engagement after the return from the underworld, wedding in the finale. Boom. 

[andromeda331]

5 hours ago, companionenvy said:

Leaving aside the specifics of season 7, I can't be sorry that the show is over because, given the writers' wonky morality, I simply could not have trusted them not to destroy the characters further than they already had. 

When you have showrunners with no concept of a moral event horizon, anything is possible. This is most obvious in the case of actual atrocities; given that this show did not understand that, if you wanted to redeem Regina, you shouldn't give her a history that involved indiscriminate slaughter of children, there's no reason to trust them not to have given Hook a flashback episode where it turns out that he once gleefully murdered everyone on a passenger ship because its captain insulted the decorating scheme on the Jolly Roger. In relative terms, we're really lucky that the worst we got in S6 was Hook having killed David's father on illogical premises. 

But even beyond that, there's also what we might call a moral event horizon for individual characters and realms of action. In a show that includes a number of villains at various stages of redemption or lack thereof, the eggnapping isn't an objectively moral-event horizon crossing moment, but it crossed the boundary of what a good writer should have been willing to do to Snowing. Similarly, I'd say Snow and Charming's inexplicable decision to go back under the curse in the "Awake" flashback crossed the line of what they could do and still be considered good parents.

In addition, the show had become so willing to indulge in angst and emotional torture porn that I can't imagine what they would have done had the original cast stayed on for a few more seasons. At least now, even with all the other nonsense, I can imagine Emma and Hook happily raising their baby. If JM had been around for a few more seasons, the show probably would have aged up Hope in some wacky scenario in which she was separated from her parents and raised in another dimension, timestream, etc.  Maybe even by a version of Regina. Or (shudder) created a love triangle between Emma, Hook, and Wish Hook. 

Given that, I can't even regret losing the opportunity to spend more time with the characters I care about.

Those were my thoughts when season six aired. Each episode pretty much made it easier to decide to quit. Each episode I wondered why I was bothering to watch. I know whatever happens we are still going to get endless amount of time for Regina and nothing they had show with her since 2A did I really care. Sure there were flashes in 3A too. Had they handled her character better, given her an actual real redemption I probably would have a different opinion. Had they not made her so awful sending children to their deaths, village massacres, trying to kidnap Owen and murdering his father, and showing her clearly enjoying every evil part. How many more times did I really want to watch her whine? Feel sorry for herself while having never apologized and refusal to show any sympathy towards her victims, never return any hearts or anything.  Watching Rumple and Belle no matter how much I liked Belle finally leaving Rumple, no matter what she said or did I knew it was never going to last. Of course once again she goes back to Rumple after once again he was horrible. I knew basically everything Snow was going to say before she said it. Every single cheerleading of Regina along with Emma. I knew we'd never get any real scenes between her and Emma or Charming and Emma. Same with Emma and Hook. I didn't know how the Land of Untold Stories would go but I knew it would be bad. Sure enough it was because once again they never bothered to come up with a story. The idea of two Reginas ticked me off but what we got was once again nothing. No insight, no Evil, nothing and part way through that storyline they appeared to forget all about it too. Why on Earth was there a scene with the Evil Queen getting her nails done? What was the point of any of it? What was I watching for? The few minutes to see Emma, Snow and Charming? Emma and Hook once again have a storyline that made no sense and required both to act out of character. I liked the Other Shoe. There were a few other parts I liked but they were so few and far between storylines that made no sense or where never finished, characters who might as well been cardboard cut outs, and so boring. By the time I watched the season 6 finale I knew I was out. I knew I wouldn't like anything that happened in the episode. Even if Emma and the Charmings hadn't left I still would have quit. 

[KingOfHearts]

Honestly, I wouldn't mind an eighth season if it were about the new generation (Henry, WHook, Alice, etc.). Not because I enjoy those characters, but if the old generation were out completely, I wouldn't mind more of the WTFery we got out of S7. That was actually entertaining at times. (Coat hangers! Begneits! Prehistoric Victorian mean girls!) What I don't want to see is Regina, Rumple, and Zelena being dragged through the mud. Rumple may be dead, but I can't stomach how watered down the other two got. And just - please no more Storybrooke. It was not a fun trip in the series finale. 

I would totally watch random OUAT shenanigans with new or new-ish characters, though. It's so bad it's amusing.

[tennisgurl]

I admit its bittersweet not having the show with us anymore. On the one hand, its probably for the best that this mess was put out of its misery, before it could ruin anymore characters or stories, as they had clearly run out of ideas by last season, and were running on fumes by the time the show ended. But, on the other hand, I miss coming here to laugh at how ridiculous everything has gotten with you all, and there were still wonderful little nuggets here and there of the show I once loved. So, while the show ending was definitely for the best, I admit I am still a little sad not to see a new episode popping up on my TV Guide app.

[Guest]

I'm fine with the show being over.

I was hopeful for a brief time before last season when I thought they were just going to start over.  I envisioned them CWifying the show.  Going with the next generation.  Or tripping around alternate versions of fairy tales.  Basically deep down I thought if they could just go with a mostly clean slate that they might get inspired again and tell a decent story.

I think I've finally accepted that there was never really any hope that the show could reach its potential, not even in its early seasons.  There is no point in tilting at windmills or griping about it.

[Shanna Marie]

2 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

I think I've finally accepted that there was never really any hope that the show could reach its potential, not even in its early seasons.  There is no point in tilting at windmills or griping about it.

Yeah, in season 2 in the rewatch, I'm already doing that slow-motion "Nooooooooo!" thing where you can see the disaster coming but are powerless to stop it. The problems are already there. They could have been fixed then, but they weren't interested in fixing them because the writers saw the problems as features, not bugs. I would say that the problem was that they were interested in writing a different show than I was interested in watching, and as the show went on, our interests diverged more and more, but a lot of it was just plain bad writing. It's not so much that I didn't want Regina to be redeemed and become the heroine as it was that they didn't set that up at all and handled the transition badly.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Yeah, in season 2 in the rewatch, I'm already doing that slow-motion "Nooooooooo!" thing where you can see the disaster coming but are powerless to stop it. The problems are already there. They could have been fixed then, but they weren't interested in fixing them because the writers saw the problems as features, not bugs. I would say that the problem was that they were interested in writing a different show than I was interested in watching, and as the show went on, our interests diverged more and more, but a lot of it was just plain bad writing. It's not so much that I didn't want Regina to be redeemed and become the heroine as it was that they didn't set that up at all and handled the transition badly.

I'm still not certain they were interested in writing the show at all.  I think they were more interested in running a show.  And not even actually running the show but the idea of being show runners.  It always felt like they had one interesting idea a season and then got it out of their system.

I believe in the idea that the issue was that the show they were interested in writing was different than the one I wanted to see.  I kind of sort of agree.  But the mental block I have with that is that the show we got seems like a lot of it was the result of a lack of interest in the subject matter or at least a lack of any interest to continue the story beyond what they originally conceived to get the show developed and on TV.  I agree on the bad writing but think the writing is worse the less interested you are in the subject.

[KingOfHearts]

The lingering last shot of the "Leaving Storybrooke" sign in the series finale lacks the emotional oomph for me. It's probably because all the realms got smashed together and leaving Storybrooke just goes into everything else around it. There's no sense of beyond, because everything surrounding Storybrooke is now something familiar. If it had still been in Maine (Is it?), it would've had more impact, since outside the city limits is... reality.

[Camera One]

The guys seem to be interested in stories and characters the way a little kid is.  They enjoy playing around with ideas for a short time on a very superficial level, and then they're onto their next shiny toy.  That's why the majority of the characters and promising ideas fizzle out after half a season, or even a few episodes.  The show was their own personal ad-lib, and I think they enjoyed the "Wouldn't it be cool if..." process enough to drag it out, refusing to terminate it even when half the main cast members left.   They also think quite highly of themselves, so they likely truly believe the entire series was a wellspring of creativity. 

It is always easier to start a show and unravel the initial backstories of the characters and the mysteries behind the premise, than to sustain it long-term.  That's what I attribute to the higher quality of the first season, in addition to guidance from "Lost" mentors and striking gold with everyone in the main cast. 

Because these writers have never demonstrated the ability to properly pace a longer arc, even in Season 1, I think their limited long-range writing/planning capabilities was a more important factor in its declining quality than simply lack of interest in the subject.  If anything, they were interested in the subject, but not interested in the necessary work behind writing fantasy - to hammer out the rules of their world, to keep track of the timelines, to truly research source material for added depth, to come up with character motivations before the plot, and to follow through on the threads they begin.  

[KAOS Agent]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

If anything, they were interested in the subject, but not interested in the necessary work behind writing fantasy - to hammer out the rules of their world, to keep track of the timelines, to truly research source material for added depth, to come up with character motivations before the plot, and to follow through on the threads they begin.  

This was clear from the very earliest interviews with the showrunners. They were legit shocked that people were asking questions about things like how the curse worked and had zero answers for any of it. They also didn't seem to show enthusiasm for fleshing details like that out.

[andromeda331]

15 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

Yeah, in season 2 in the rewatch, I'm already doing that slow-motion "Nooooooooo!" thing where you can see the disaster coming but are powerless to stop it. The problems are already there. They could have been fixed then, but they weren't interested in fixing them because the writers saw the problems as features, not bugs. I would say that the problem was that they were interested in writing a different show than I was interested in watching, and as the show went on, our interests diverged more and more, but a lot of it was just plain bad writing. It's not so much that I didn't want Regina to be redeemed and become the heroine as it was that they didn't set that up at all and handled the transition badly.

I had a moment of worry when they showed the sad face Regina at the end of the Charmings going to dinner together for the first time. But let it go. Surely they weren't going to go there. Then of course came the Cricket Game and other episodes. I really hated and considered quitting after watching season two finale. I couldn't stomach Regina now being a victim. Siding with Cora and getting zero fall out from it, telling Henry she was going to murder everyone and take him away before erasing that and going to do that. Why? Because she overheard Snow and Charming not wanting her to come back with them. Why the hell was she surprised by that after everything she's done. Plus no one was reminding, pointing or treating Regina the way they should. Her actions in Welcome to Storybrooke where after getting everything she wanted its not enough so she decides to try and kidnap Owen and murdered his father. Oh, but we're suppose to feel sorry for her when she's being tortured by Owen/Greg? Then of course her being named a hero for stopping the town being destroyed even though she was planning on doing the same thing and the only reason she didn't was because Greg/Owen and Tamara got to it first. But then I naively thought it was sophomore slump. That the writers would hear the feed back and things would be better in season three. It started out that way so I really thought it would better. You had the Charming family forced to work with Hook and Regina but not trusting them and being suspicious of them. Which they should be. It seemed like they figured out how to balance the main cast and use the correct characters at the right time. Like Regina taking the heart so they could contact Henry, Hook advising them on Neverland. But of course that all fell apart.  It was as bad as no fall out from the curse because once again they had a really great idea with everyone but Emma and Henry being sent back to the Enchanted Forest. What would it be like to be back? But they never show us that or do anything with it except Regina having zero connecting her missing Henry to what she did to everyone she cursed or that Snow and Charming were separated from their daughter for a second time. Zero fall out for Snow and Charming who once again were separated from their daughter, Neal making stupid decisions which he'd never make because he was always suspicious of magic especially dark magic. He'd never bring back the Dark One and he also never would need too. There's no way he wouldn't find another way among all his father's stuff. Nothing happens except another Curse sending them back to Storybrooke. I really should have learned then and stopped with the season three finale. It still remains my favorite and everything I wanted the show to be. A fun adventure, with magic, Emma seeing her parents as they were in the Enchanted Forest and falling in love. Figuring out how to get home. But once again I naively thought season four had to be better right? They gave us an awesome season finale. Nope. I loved the show so much in the beginning. I loved Emma, Snow, Charming and Henry. I loved watching Emma and Snow's relationship grow in season one and Emma and Henry's. I loved Snow and Charming in season one Enchanted Forest. If they had started out with the poor Regina in the beginning I wouldn't have been upset because then I'd know what show I was getting. For one season we saw Regina murdering and being awful and for a reason that made no sense. We watched Emma slowly helping with Ashley and Hansel and Gretel. It was fun to see her winning in little ways. The relationships forming. Emma and Mary Margaret in the Mad Hatter. We were seeing a show where Emma was going to break the Curse, Snow and Charming would be reunited along with Emma and Henry. That Regina was going to lose and she deserved it. That was the show we were told we were watching. Rumple was a wild card. He did bad things but he also helped Emma, Snow and Charming. But also helped Regina. Then they changed into the Regina and Rumple show.  Had they done that it the beginning I probably never would have watched it. But again I'd know what I was getting. It wasn't until 2B that suddenly everything changed and we were watching a different show. It just really sucks. It was really good show with so much promise, so many really good backstories, great actors, and even a lot of really good arcs or potential for really good arcs or storylines. But threw it all away.   

[tennisgurl]

The early seasons make the ending of the series even worse in retrospect, which kind of makes it hard to watch even the episodes and seasons that I really like. I appreciate that the Charmings did still get their happy ending, but watching all of the awful things Regina does/did, and knowing that not only does she win after doing a very small amount of changing or making amends, she becomes Queen of the Universe, beloved by all (or else they die, presumably) and has everything she ever wanted. Yeah her two boyfriends died, but as Queen of Everything, she can probably find another one pretty soon (and we now how great Regina is at consent!) and now can have billions of people stand in line to tell her how awesome she is every day. Good God. 

Honestly, I am still losing my mind about that I think. Whenever I watch old episodes, I just keeping thinking of the logistics of all this. Mulans country had an Emperor, were he and his people cool with Regina becoming their new Empress? Did all the ogres follow everyone to Storeybrooke, as well as every other monster from any story ever? When you walk into Frankensteins neighborhood, does everything turn black and white? 

I dont write fanfic, but I have been kicking around this idea of a massive crossover where both heroes of villains (and everyone in between) must team up to defeat the tyranny of Mad Queen Regina and get everyone back home. 

[Shanna Marie]

20 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

I'm still not certain they were interested in writing the show at all.  I think they were more interested in running a show.  And not even actually running the show but the idea of being show runners.  It always felt like they had one interesting idea a season and then got it out of their system.

I think some of the issue has to do with the fact that the show they ended up selling wasn't really the show they wanted to do. They've talked about their initial concept was Storybrooke as the place where the Evil Queen could get a happy ending. We know they had to be talked out of killing Charming in the pilot, which makes it clear that they didn't care about Snow's happy ending or Emma's (since it would mean she never met her father). What we saw in season one seems different from what they seem to have originally wanted to do. It seems like they probably had to retool the series in order to make it palatable to networks, so we got Emma as the heroine rather than Regina, Charming lived and Regina was the villain with no redeeming factors. When the first season was reasonably successful, they probably got more leeway, and thus the abrupt shift to poor, sad Regina as the victim who gets hailed as a hero for stopping evil actions she set in motion. If they had to pitch the concept for the season story arcs, it still didn't sound quite so Regina-centric -- Emma and Snow have to try to get home from the Enchanted Forest, then Hook and Cora come to Storybrooke. They might even have used the addition of Hook as a shiny thing to distract the network from what they were really doing. The Regina stuff was more of a subplot, so it got in under the radar. As the series went on, they got to more or less do the series they'd always wanted rather than the one set up in season one. That's why Charming was barely a factor, since to them he was dead, and they kept sidelining Emma, since she was never supposed to be the heroine.

And then there are their other weaknesses, like not being able to pay attention to a story long enough to actually develop it. They do have some good ideas, but they should never have been showrunners. They're the kind of series creators who need adult supervision to actually run the show while they serve as "creative consultants."

[KAOS Agent]

This show would have greatly benefited from an executive showrunner. That would be someone who is focused on the details and keeping the story on track. They would take the "wouldn't it be cool if" ideas and make the writers follow it through to its conclusion. Shiny new toys would only be inserted if it doesn't distract from finishing out a story arc. They would also question how the "cool" idea would flow. So when you open a season with Aladdin the Saviour getting shakes and being a pale shadow of his former self due to endless requests to save everyone, there would be questions about how this relates to Emma and how that would actually play out for her arc. It would also require thought to be put into how this all works out for Aladdin such that there is some meaning to the beginning of the season.

This person might also work on keeping track of details like how to actually spell Rumpelstiltskin and making sure the chyrons make sense in the timeline or with previously established canon. Little!Emma in Minneapolis at age six makes no sense for a baby that was in Boston and then somehow returned to Boston by age 12. These may not be important details, but they are things that should not have happened and wouldn't have happened with better oversight.

[Camera One]

They weren't kidding that Andrew Chambliss was their continuity guy.  The show was enough of an inconsistent mess in Season 6, but who knew the depths to which it would reach in Season 7 without Chambliss around.  Adam seems like a nitpicky guy when it came to nerdy stuff like Stars Wars, but he didn't feel it was a duty for him to do the same for a world he was creating?  

7 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I think some of the issue has to do with the fact that the show they ended up selling wasn't really the show they wanted to do. They've talked about their initial concept was Storybrooke as the place where the Evil Queen could get a happy ending. We know they had to be talked out of killing Charming in the pilot, which makes it clear that they didn't care about Snow's happy ending or Emma's (since it would mean she never met her father).

That really does explain why the Charmings were pushed into the background by 2B and onwards.  I wonder what they planned to do with Snow... a revolving door of love interests until one stuck?  If Charming had died and Snow and Emma still became BFFs with Regina, that would have been even more quizzical and infuriating.  I seriously wouldn't put it past them to have done that still.  Heck, maybe they would have put Snow with Rumple.

Edited September 28, 2018 by Camera One

[andromeda331]

10 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I think some of the issue has to do with the fact that the show they ended up selling wasn't really the show they wanted to do. They've talked about their initial concept was Storybrooke as the place where the Evil Queen could get a happy ending. We know they had to be talked out of killing Charming in the pilot, which makes it clear that they didn't care about Snow's happy ending or Emma's (since it would mean she never met her father). What we saw in season one seems different from what they seem to have originally wanted to do. It seems like they probably had to retool the series in order to make it palatable to networks, so we got Emma as the heroine rather than Regina, Charming lived and Regina was the villain with no redeeming factors. When the first season was reasonably successful, they probably got more leeway, and thus the abrupt shift to poor, sad Regina as the victim who gets hailed as a hero for stopping evil actions she set in motion. If they had to pitch the concept for the season story arcs, it still didn't sound quite so Regina-centric -- Emma and Snow have to try to get home from the Enchanted Forest, then Hook and Cora come to Storybrooke. They might even have used the addition of Hook as a shiny thing to distract the network from what they were really doing. The Regina stuff was more of a subplot, so it got in under the radar. As the series went on, they got to more or less do the series they'd always wanted rather than the one set up in season one. That's why Charming was barely a factor, since to them he was dead, and they kept sidelining Emma, since she was never supposed to be the heroine.

And then there are their other weaknesses, like not being able to pay attention to a story long enough to actually develop it. They do have some good ideas, but they should never have been showrunners. They're the kind of series creators who need adult supervision to actually run the show while they serve as "creative consultants."

That is definitely part of it. They always wanted to do a show about Regina, the Evil Queen. But that show kept getting nos. It wasn't until they retooled it that they got the yes. It does seem that once they became a hit they decided to turn the show back into what they wanted it to be. They weren't the first to turn their show into something else and won't be the last. I'll never understand why they do that and are surprised when ratings drop. They never seem to understand why that drove viewers away. That wasn't the show we were watching for a year. That wasn't what made the show a hit. They seem to have zero understanding that they made Regina so horrible in season one that they couldn't simply switch to Regina the victim and people would just accept it just because they said so or that people didn't want that show. Their second problem was unable to have any filter when it came to Regina and Rumple. Why would you keep adding more and more horrible crimes to the list of people you also wanted to be the star of the show, to be "good" and the hero? Why would you add village massacres to the list but have Snow being wrong when she sees it and thinks Regina is a monster? She is a monster! Why would you be developing Rumple and Belle only for Belle to learn Rumple murdered his first wife? But don't allow Belle to have the reaction she should have? They never really had to go there and it was insane that they thought it was a good idea when they wanted us to feel sorry for Regina and feel poor Rumple and think Hook was the villain for wanting to murder him. Why wouldn't you have Regina apology when she's suppose to be "good". The writing for their favorite characters really wasn't even that good because even with them they were lazy. Instead of writing a really good, and moving redemption arc for Regina they went with instant fix. Instead of Regina really trying to work on her relationship with Henry they went with instant fix. Rumple meets with his son and after one conversation that's it he never speaks to him again. Even though he spent centuries working to find him? Rumple goes off alone in Neverland only to spend most of it talking to a fake Belle. A&E's view of Regina and Rumple never matched up with what we were watching. They did have really good ideas but would never follow through but yes they never should have been showrunners. They need someone else to make sure stories were finished. To make sure they didn't constantly shift every time there was a shiny new item and drop everything else. To make sure stuff actually made sense. 

[companionenvy]

It seems to me that A&E had a basic misunderstanding of how stories operate. They think that it is good writing to work against expectations, without realizing that past a certain point, writing against expectations really means ignoring all sense of how human beings actually work. 

Yes, it is more surprising to redeem someone like Regina, as she was portrayed in S1 than to redeem someone who began grayer. But that isn't a sign that A&E are brilliant and innovative writers -- the reason other shows aren't trying to redeem people who are portrayed as total sociopaths is because, absent a very, very slowly and carefully drawn arc, it simply isn't going to be believable. To use an example from Game of Thrones, it is one thing to ask us to root for Jaime Lannister; it is another thing to ask us to start rooting for Joffrey. And as you redeem a villain, that redemption has to be earned, and can't be predicated on everyone around the villain acting in completely unbelievable ways. In all of the many redemption arcs that I've enjoyed on TV, I really can't think of a single one in which the reforming villain faced less resistance than Regina, let alone from people who he or she had directly and deliberately harmed in such truly horrific and irrevocable ways. That isn't working against expectations; that's showing a fundamental disconnect with human nature. 

There's also a difference between how a story should go on a show centered around an anti-hero/villain -- which may well be the show A&E wanted to write -- and a show that includes an anti-hero/villain. On a Breaking Bad, Walt is the consistent primary focus and POV character, so while it is important not to slide into apologism, we expect his story to finally take precedence over that of other, more sympathetic characters. But on an ensemble show that does offer us more conventional heroes, it just isn't satisfying to get a bait-and-switch in which everyone winds up - in this case, literally -- bowing at the altar of someone who has caused such intense pain to all of them. Much as I think the writers blew Regina's redemption, by the end, I honestly would have had no problem with an ending in which she wound up happy. I have a massive problem with a finale which ends with a triumph that eclipses that of any of the other characters on the show, is utterly disproportionate to anything she's done to deserve it, and shows utter contempt for everyone who isn't Regina, who would have to be out of their minds to react in the way they do. I know that Snowing and Emma had left the show before season 7, but forgetting the Regina of it all, you can't have characters with that much of a history on the show decide to essentially abdicate their rightful throne - a decision that should have implications, not just for them but for their children and grandchildren -- without, you know, talking about what that means and why they are doing it. It was the writers responsibility to come up with a conclusion that served the characters you were left with without disrespecting the characters that had been a core part of the show for seven years. This wouldn't have been hard: making Henry the central character gave a natural way of launching a next-gen hero narrative that didn't undermine the previous six seasons. But as the writers had always seen this as Regina's story, of course they couldn't do that.

I mean, there's a reason that Battlestar Galatctica - for all the issues its finale did have -- doesn't end with the Adamas, Roslin and Starbuck declaring Baltar president of humanity. Maybe that could have worked on the show Gaius Baltar, but it would have been ridiculous on BSG. He gets to contribute, he gets what seems like it is going to be a decent life - but partially, he gets that by giving up his more self-aggrandizing impulses. And Baltar was more of a weasel than an all-out villain. That's not because Ron D. Moore had a failure of imagination or ambition; it is because he understood how people -- and stories -- worked. 

Edited September 28, 2018 by companionenvy

[KingOfHearts]

32 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

 

It seems to me that A&E had a basic misunderstanding of how stories operate. They think that it is good writing to work against expectations, without realizing that past a certain point, writing against expectations really means ignoring all sense of how human beings actually work. 

 

It's almost like Rian Johnson took notes from A&E when he wrote The Last Jedi. A common defense for that film is that it "subverts your expectations", as in going for the big shocking twists instead of developing characters in an organic manner or moving the plot according to tried and true formulas. A&E's style is throwing random crap at the wall and ignoring what sticks. 

[Mitch]

On 9/26/2018 at 10:07 PM, KingOfHearts said:

The lingering last shot of the "Leaving Storybrooke" sign in the series finale lacks the emotional oomph for me. It's probably because all the realms got smashed together and leaving Storybrooke just goes into everything else around it. There's no sense of beyond, because everything surrounding Storybrooke is now something familiar. If it had still been in Maine (Is it?), it would've had more impact, since outside the city limits is... reality.

Yes, is SB still in Maine..and if so..how do all those realms squeeze into a pocket of Maine Woods? Also, I have never understood their retooling of the LWOM.  Is it or isnt it? In past seasons they were clear that crossing over the town line takes you into reality..and there is no magic and of course Rump had to smuggle magic into our world, but it was confined to SB, which kept him there..if its just a matter of belief, then why would that Monster thing from Fanastasia disappear crossing the townline, it would believe there was magic as it would have no other context...when Ingrid waves her arms to zap the Fortune Teller she is surprised there is not magic..she actually believed she could produce it..yet in Seattle no one brings magic back yet some people use it and some people dont...Regina admits she has no magic yet later she handwaves Rump free from his trap, with no effort at all. I can get them not getting the specifics down on some things as they are lazy as hell, but the whole show and various BIG plot point were built on having no magic over the townline? It made no sense at all.

[Shanna Marie]

14 hours ago, Camera One said:

I wonder what they planned to do with Snow... a revolving door of love interests until one stuck? 

Wasn't there something about how she was originally supposed to have been a nun? In the pilot, it was almost ambiguous enough that they might have even shot it one way and edited it to suggest something different when they changed their minds. Her name is Mary Margaret, she dresses primly, and she teaches at a school where the kids wear uniforms. If Charming's dead and Snow's a nun, they really don't care about the Charmings getting a happy ending.

5 hours ago, companionenvy said:

It seems to me that A&E had a basic misunderstanding of how stories operate. They think that it is good writing to work against expectations, without realizing that past a certain point, writing against expectations really means ignoring all sense of how human beings actually work. 

There's that, and there's also their tendency to go for the Shocking!Twist with no setup, as though actually setting something up instead of having it come out of the blue will spoil the surprise.

I can totally see telling the powers that be what they want to hear in order to sell it, with the idea that you'll eventually get around back to what you really wanted to do. But if they were always hoping to do their Regina show, it makes no sense that they did absolutely nothing to set up her redemption in season one. We didn't get a moment where she did something good out of sight, where she did something good to try to impress Henry and found to her surprise that she enjoyed it, where she made any attempt to be affectionate to Henry and then seemed hurt in a non-evil, non-crazy-eyes way when he rebuffed her. All those little things wouldn't have made the network think they were doing The Evil Queen Show that had been rejected, but would have paved the way for a future redemption. I don't think it would necessarily have given away the fact that she was due to be redeemed.

I don't think I saw Hook as being firmly on the redemption train until late in season two. I barely noticed his little dashes of good because he was just so intensely angry. But now that we know how he turned out, it's fun to look back on that time and spot the clues that he had potential.

The first few times we got the flashback that showed us a person was the complete opposite of what we knew before were fun. I loved learning that Prince Charming was really a farmboy. Seeing our prim and proper Mary Margaret as Bandit Snow was great. It was sort of amusing to see Grumpy as Dreamy. By the time we got around to seeing Regina as the wide-eyed girl or Rumple as a craven weakling, it was a little less surprising. Going further back in Hook's history to meet Lt. Jones was a good surprise. But when they started undermining the characters' pasts in order to have them be the complete opposite of what we already knew them to be, it got silly, like with David having to learn courage or Bae actually being the one goading Rumple into doing evil. Then there was the weirdness of going for the opposite of what the character was at that moment, so when Regina is (supposedly) good, we get lots of flashbacks of her being even more evil than she was in season one, or once Hook is thoroughly good, all his flashbacks are about how awful he was. I guess they thought seeing Lt. Jones wouldn't be fun anymore once he was truly good in the present.

The other problem is that they abruptly switched from the show they sold to the show they wanted to do without any kind of real pivot. Regina's just suddenly the hero without her going through the process of truly repudiating her past attitudes and behaviors. It would have been weird enough for everyone she'd been trying to destroy to become her friend even if she'd apologized and said her former behavior was all wrong. To have that happen without any apology or even a spoken truce that she was done trying to destroy them was ridiculous. I think a bit part of the problem there was that in their original concept, she really was misunderstood and was the true victim. That didn't make it into season one, but when they switched to the show they really wanted to do, they switched to that original concept in spite of what we'd seen in season one, where she'd really been a villain. Thus all the Snow groveling and "I was such a brat." In their minds, she didn't actually wrong Snow. Snow was in the wrong and deserved what she got, so no apologies from Regina were necessary.

[KAOS Agent]

7 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

Thus all the Snow groveling and "I was such a brat." In their minds, she didn't actually wrong Snow. Snow was in the wrong and deserved what she got, so no apologies from Regina were necessary.

I think that this was a major problem with the writing. The showrunners gave interviews where they actually do place a lot of blame on ten year old Snow much to the interviewer's disbelief. Usually the press is willing to buy into whatever the showrunners are peddling, but this was patently ridiculous. Particularly when they want the audience to see Regina as the victim of Cora and her manipulations. You can't have Regina be the wronged and misunderstood adult victim of Cora and turn around and blame a young, naive child for that same manipulation. They never seemed to understand that most people (even many Regina fans) didn't see it their way. 

What got weirder is that I believe that there were writers who understood the absurdity of blaming Snow and so you would get episodes where Snow was shown as not to blame and could respond with "I was ten!" Then you'd turn around in another episode and hear Snow talking about how she was a brat and somehow Regina's response was reasonable. Village slaughter seems a bit of an over the top response to be explained away because of a "bratty" step-daughter. If they played Regina as psychologically unbalanced in terms of her feelings for her mother and shifting it onto Snow/anyone else, which is a more reasonable excuse for Regina's reactions, then the whole thing would have worked better. Actually having everyone else recognize that nothing they did had anything to do with Regina's actions and vocalize that while making it clear that Regina remains messed in the head and her victim blaming beliefs are only rational to her would have done wonders for everyone's characters and the show overall.

Edited September 29, 2018 by KAOS Agent

[andromeda331]

8 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

I think that this was a major problem with the writing. The showrunners gave interviews where they actually do place a lot of blame on ten year old Snow much to the interviewer's disbelief. Usually the press is willing to buy into whatever the showrunners are peddling, but this was patently ridiculous. Particularly when they want the audience to see Regina as the victim of Cora and her manipulations. You can't have Regina be the wronged and misunderstood adult victim of Cora and turn around and blame a young, naive child for that same manipulation. They never seemed to understand that most people (even many Regina fans) didn't see it their way. 

What got weirder is that I believe that there were writers who understood the absurdity of blaming Snow and so you would get episodes where Snow was shown as not to blame and could respond with "I was ten!" Then you'd turn around in another episode and hear Snow talking about how she was a brat and somehow Regina's response was reasonable. Village slaughter seems a bit of an over the top response to be explained away because of a "bratty" step-daughter. If they played Regina as psychologically unbalanced in terms of her feelings for her mother and shifting it onto Snow/anyone else, which is a more reasonable excuse for Regina's reactions, then the whole thing would have worked better. Actually having everyone else recognize that nothing they did had anything to do with Regina's actions and vocalize that while making it clear that Regina remains messed in the head and her victim blaming beliefs are only rational to her would have done wonders for everyone's characters and the show overall.

That is very true. They do completely believe Snow is at fault. Even though she is ten, had no idea she who she was dealing with, AND Regina witnessed her mother murder Daniel. Yet they don't see that is exactly what most people have difficulty with.  What reasonable person who they want us to sympathize with and feel bad for blames a ten year old?! She's ten. The thing is they could have mudded it up a bit. Maybe Snow tells Cora because she really, really wants Regina to be her new mother but still doesn't realize who she's dealing with. Or not have Regina witness her mother murdering Daniel. Instead make it look like he ran off she could easily assume that Snow told her father who convinced Daniel to run off since as far as she knows Snow is the only one who knows. Only to learn years later that Cora murdered him when she learned her mother orchestrated everything. But they don't do that. They never realize they gave us a crappy reason for Regina to be evil. That it only makes Regina look worse for spending decades murdering and trying to destroy a ten year old. The whole "I was a brat" as if well then that's okay the Regina targeted a ten year old and spend decades destroying everything in the girl's life and trying to kill her. Ah, no first the only time we ever saw Snow as a brat was before her mother died, we never saw that again after she died. And even if we had that still is no excuse for Regina. 

[Shanna Marie]

3 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

They do completely believe Snow is at fault. Even though she is ten, had no idea she who she was dealing with, AND Regina witnessed her mother murder Daniel. Yet they don't see that is exactly what most people have difficulty with.  What reasonable person who they want us to sympathize with and feel bad for blames a ten year old?!

A few weeks ago, there was some discussion about which villains were relatable in that you could put yourself in their shoes and understand some of what they did. For instance, if someone cut off my hand and murdered my lover in front of me and there was no justice through any kind of legal system, I would probably want revenge on that person and I'd be very angry at any person who supported that person. I might not go about it the way Hook did -- though in a way he ended up doing what I would have done. I'm not the violent, killer type, so I'd have tried undermining him, taking away the things he loved, and when you think about it, Hook really got his revenge by spending more time with Rumple's son than Rumple got to and becoming his son's friend, then he became friends with Rumple's second wife, then he became Rumple's grandson's stepfather, and ultimately, Rumple ended up dying to save the life of another version of Hook. It's all rather perfect revenge in that everything that made Hook's life better was a stab at Rumple.

I could kind of see doing some pretty extreme things if I were separated from my child, so I can somewhat understand Rumple. My problem there is that I can't imagine getting myself into the situation he was in to begin with, and I can't imagine the casual cruelty he engaged in along the way or going so far as to destroy a civilization to get what I wanted.

But with Regina, it doesn't make a lot of sense. If a kid discovered something I was doing and blabbed in spite of me warning her not to and something bad happened that she couldn't have anticipated and didn't directly cause, I might be a bit irked at the kid. I might not have been able to be a warm and loving stepmother to her. I wouldn't have wanted to spend time around her. I probably wouldn't have gone through with marrying her father. But I think I'd have been more mad at the person who actually did the murdering right in front of me, and I certainly wouldn't have randomly murdered people who crossed my path or murdered my own father to cast a curse on the child who blabbed. It's insane when you think about it, so over the top that it's hard to imagine anyone going that far.

[Camera One]

I was thinking about "Tiny" and how back then, I thought the growing of magic beans had quite a bit of potential.  I wondered if they were going to travel back and forth more.  I thought it might be a way to expand the show beyond Storybrooke.  

I suppose an entire field of beans would make realm hopping too easy, so they needed a way to make beans scarce again.  But now that the entire series is over, that reason doesn't seem to hold up anymore, because realm travel DID become easy.  It would almost have made it simpler and less ridiculous, if they had just kept a constant supply of magic beans around (maybe more limited in quantity rather than a whole field), rather than to create more and more dumb ways to travel between realms.  All they needed to do was to make the use of magic beans more risky or with more of a cost.  

If the Writers were smart, they would look at the major "Huh" questions from viewers, and then use them as jumping points for stories.  For example, why did Blue say the bean was the last magical bean known to her kind?  Why did she not know about giants?  Or did she?  When the fairies found out about the genocide of the giants, why didn't Blue go to King George to revoke the services of her Fairy Godmother?  What did she do in retaliation for that Fairy Godmother's murder?  Questions lead to more questions, but yeah, we learned the key lesson... our questions are pointless.

Edited September 29, 2018 by Camera One

[andromeda331]

16 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

A few weeks ago, there was some discussion about which villains were relatable in that you could put yourself in their shoes and understand some of what they did. For instance, if someone cut off my hand and murdered my lover in front of me and there was no justice through any kind of legal system, I would probably want revenge on that person and I'd be very angry at any person who supported that person. I might not go about it the way Hook did -- though in a way he ended up doing what I would have done. I'm not the violent, killer type, so I'd have tried undermining him, taking away the things he loved, and when you think about it, Hook really got his revenge by spending more time with Rumple's son than Rumple got to and becoming his son's friend, then he became friends with Rumple's second wife, then he became Rumple's grandson's stepfather, and ultimately, Rumple ended up dying to save the life of another version of Hook. It's all rather perfect revenge in that everything that made Hook's life better was a stab at Rumple.

I could kind of see doing some pretty extreme things if I were separated from my child, so I can somewhat understand Rumple. My problem there is that I can't imagine getting myself into the situation he was in to begin with, and I can't imagine the casual cruelty he engaged in along the way or going so far as to destroy a civilization to get what I wanted.

But with Regina, it doesn't make a lot of sense. If a kid discovered something I was doing and blabbed in spite of me warning her not to and something bad happened that she couldn't have anticipated and didn't directly cause, I might be a bit irked at the kid. I might not have been able to be a warm and loving stepmother to her. I wouldn't have wanted to spend time around her. I probably wouldn't have gone through with marrying her father. But I think I'd have been more mad at the person who actually did the murdering right in front of me, and I certainly wouldn't have randomly murdered people who crossed my path or murdered my own father to cast a curse on the child who blabbed. It's insane when you think about it, so over the top that it's hard to imagine anyone going that far.

I agree Hook's made a lot of sense. I don't agree with his method but he really didn't have any other recourse. Rumple was too powerful and no one could do anything about it. I doubt Hook was the only one given all the crap Rumple has pulled. His only way to get justice for Milah was revenge. I do like you pointing out Hook ending up friend's with his son, second wife and grandson's stepfather. First wife too. While I do think it was crappy that Milah left her son. Rumple really didn't care about her happiness at all or he would have moved them away.

Rumple's to a point makes sense too. To make a horrible mistake that left you separated from your child? And it was all your fault. Through season one we had signs and remarks from Rumple that he regretted it. That he would do anything to find his son and make up with him. That is a sympathetic reason too. But his method makes less sense when he is willing to hurt a lot of people in order to find his son. But also as you pointed out he is very casual about it and in murders. Also that he really doesn't end up sacrificing his powers or himself to find Bae. There were a lot of other ways to Land without Magic but none that would let him keep his powers. And how long it took. If we saw Rumple trying a bunch of different ways and only ending up doing the Curse because nothing else worked. That might be more sympathetic. He waits centuries without any real urgency to find his son. 

Regina's makes zero sense. Hating Snow because she blabbed okay fine that might make sense. To a point. The way the set it up we see Cora manipulating the motherless Snow. She had no idea who she was dealing with and seriously thought she was helping Regina. And Regina knows that. She knows exactly what her mother is like and she watches her mother murder Daniel. Hating Snow would make sense. Wanting nothing to do with her would make sense. Targeting her for a lifetime of murder attempts, murdering Snow's father, stealing her throne and murdering entire villages? That makes no sense and its hard to be sympathetic about. Regina didn't have to marry the King. Once she got rid of her mother she was free to do whatever she wanted. Any sympathy for Regina over Daniel's death goes out the window by her targeting Snow instead of her mother. She goes too far in everything she does. Decades targeting a ten year old? Decades of murdering entire villages? There's also the fact that every time she does every single one of her crimes. She's happy about it and enjoying it. She slaughtered an entire village and grinned as she did it. She sent God knows how many children to their deaths. 

One other thing about Hook's revenge. When he thought he got it. Hook didn't feel how he thought he would. That started him down the path to turn away from revenge. Changing his mind after abandoning Bae and Bae's son at the end of season two. In the opening of season three we have Hook telling Regina in response to her question that Greg/Owen calling her a villain and villains don't get happy endings. He remarks he hopes that's not true or they would have wasted their lives. Where with Regina with the exception of murdering Snow and being defeated by Snow and Charming, Regina always won. She won by terrorizing her stepdaughter for decades, she won when she murdered her husband and took over his kingdom, she had all the power, she raped Graham for decades, and she won for 28 years with the Curse! And she still wasn't happy. It wasn't enough for her. No she was already unhappy days into the Curse! And how does she decide to fix that? By trying to kidnapping a boy and murdering his father. Its just really hard to see anything in Regina does as sympathetic. Even when people do what she wants like Hansel and Gretel getting the apple she rewards them by separating them from their father because they didn't want to live with her.  

Edited September 30, 2018 by andromeda331

[companionenvy]

I think these last few posts are reinforcing for me a couple of other reasons that Regina's redemption fails and Hook's works -- and why Rumple's works through season 3, and then falls apart (until the very end of 7).

First, while Rumple is actually worse than Regina in many ways, when it comes to extent of crimes, neither he nor Hook has a direct or personal vendetta against the other main characters (except for the vendetta Hook and Rumple have against each other). To the extent that either of them have harmed our heroes, it was as a byproduct of a goal that really had nothing at all to do with them - and goals that, as Shanna indicated above, are actually fairly sympathetic, though I'm not sure anyone actually acknowledges that in Hook's case. That doesn't make the consequences of what they've done any better (the consequences of what Rumple did, of course, being far, far worse than anything Hook did), but it does make it a lot easier to imagine the Charmings not bearing great personal animosity toward them. There's no betrayal or history of cruelty to overcome. It is almost comparable to the difference between forgiving someone who fought for the other side in a war you or your loved ones were a part of, and forgiving someone who specifically targeted a person you love out of malice. 

That changes, in Rumple's case, in S4, after which point the other characters' reactions to him become implausible - not Regina-level implausible, as they don't befriend him, but still bizarre. Because in S4, Rumple is actively trying to harm Emma specifically and the rest of the town in general, and yet once he is the DO again in 5B, everyone is more or less back to rolling their eyes at Rumple, rather than treating him like a hated threat who they should be working to contain and treating as a major priority. This is especially jarring given what a crisis everyone had considered DO Emma. And of course, from the viewers' perspective, S4 took a character who had been purposefully evil for complex reasons and turned him into a cartoonish megalomaniac, but then apparently expected us to still see him as a textured and ultimately sympathetic person. 

Second - and I think Shanna has made this point well in the past -- Regina, and Regina alone never gets any kind of karmic payback, which comes off as worse because she is almost always winning. In every good redemption arc that I can think of -- really, every single one -- the villain being redeemed has to hit rock bottom and/or permanently lose or sacrifice something extremely important to them. And specifically, they generally have to sacrifice something important to them that relates to their past crimes, not just have something bad happen to them, as generally in these types of shows, everyone has bad things happen to them. Angel spends some time in Hell, and can't be with Buffy. Spike is tortured by the Initiative, loses his ability to hurt humans, and also doesn't get to be with Buffy, even after going through the trials to get his soul back. Faith spends a couple of years in jail. Jaime Lannister is imprisoned in pretty humiliating conditions, loses his hand, destroying his reputation as a great fighter, and has to (it seems) finally give up his sick and toxic relationship with the woman he loves devotedly, after losing all of the children who came of their relationship. Theon Greyjoy is freaking castrated. The Cylons give up their ability to resurrect, and both Caprica Six and Athena, too, spend a non-trivial amount of time imprisoned; Caprica, who is first seen murdering a child, also suffers a miscarriage. 

On Once, by the time we meet him, Hook has already lost his hand and the woman he "stole" from Rumple; in many ways, part of the reason he is sympathetic is because he is already someone who karma has caught up to. His revenge quest isn't about gaining happiness, because there isn't any for him; it is just about making Rumple pay. While he's obviously doing OK for himself as a pirate, he's hardly living a life of luxury, and he in any case gives that up when he reforms. He gets his ship back, yes, but he's completely severed himself from the context in which he had any power or control for life in a land where he's at a significant disadvantage and, for a while, is going to be disliked and suspected without commanding fear or respect as he once did. Then, of course, he spends some time being tortured in the Underworld. His counterpart in the Wish Realm gives up piracy for his daughter, and then also loses that daughter for years, in an extremely (and, literally) painful way that lasts right up until the final episode. Rumple is far more powerful, but he loses Bae, the person for whom he has done all of this, and is left in a pretty dire position in Neverland, then again with Zelena in 3B. 

After Rumple's total backslide in 4-5A, however, he really doesn't have any equivalent payback. He gets to keep Belle, and raise Gideon, who is conveniently turned back into a baby; plus, he gets to keep his powers; the only thing he sacrifices is the chance to be even more powerful. The show does, however, I would say kind of fix this with his final sacrifice, which, as it involves a version of Hook, is pretty karmically appropriate.

By contrast, the show pays lip service to doing this for Regina, but doesn't. I'm sure if you asked A&E, they'd point to her losing Henry in 2A and again in 3B as "rock bottom." But because of the show's absurdly compressed timescale, within a few weeks of her trying to kill and/or imprison his entire family she's at least being called in for babysitting duty and being told that she can visit him. Given the magnitude of her crimes, Emma "not being sure" that sleepovers are yet a good idea is laughable as Regina truly losing something; the fact that she responds by immediately defaulting to "kill them all to get Henry back" is a reflection on her impatience, not on the actual extent of punishment, which is minimal. She does lose Henry for a year between 3A and 3B - and a little more time where he doesn't remember her. That's probably the closest the show comes to actually punishing her. But even there, in the context of a show in which (because of Regina) Snow and Charming lost 28 years with Emma - and have again lost her and Henry in the missing year --, in which Emma (because of Regina, though less directly), lost ten years with Henry, in which Rumple (though, granted, it was his fault), lost Bae at 14, and then again, and permanently, soon after their reunion, the fact that she goes a year without Henry, and then gets him back via a super special TLK after which he becomes one of her biggest cheerleaders doesn't rate. Especially as, once we take s7 into account, she really emerges as adult Henry's primary parent; she potentially has years of adventures with Henry in the EF while Emma is back in SB. 

More than that, after about the second episode, and the day or two where people think she has killed Archie, no one is even talking about trying to restrain her even after they become aware she is working with Cora. She gets her job as mayor back, inexplicably, keeps all of her wealth at a time in which her key nemesis Snow is sharing a small loft with two other adults and a pre-teen, and, of course, ends the series getting an even better version of precisely the position she stole. All while her enemies becomes her friends and supporters. 

What happens to Regina would be the equivalent of Rumple's arc ending with him getting the extra DO powers he had always wanted and using them to resurrect Bae. Or Hook ending the series by finally murdering Rumple, after which he and Emma sail off on the Jolly Roger for a life of piracy, just after Emma magics his hand back. 

[Shanna Marie]

The discussion about Regina and karma, along with some of the discussion in episode threads about Cora, got me started thinking:

Would Regina's story have been more palatable if she hadn't been a princess, hadn't grown up in privilege? If, say, she was a miller's daughter, or a farm girl instead of the daughter of a prince and granddaughter of a king (and possibly by the time she's an adult, niece of a king).

For one thing, even if Leopold and Snow hadn't come along and even if Cora wasn't specifically targeting Leopold as a husband for her daughter, the odds were slim that Regina would have been allowed to marry a stableboy. It just wasn't done. Even if Cora and Henry didn't object, you'd think Henry's family would have put their foot down. Regina, having been raised in privilege, probably wouldn't have fared well if she'd tried running away with Daniel. A stableboy would never have made that much money, and he'd have had a hard time finding a job without a reference (which he wouldn't have got from running away from his last job). Regina didn't have any marketable skills. Given how snarky and obnoxious she got about even the least hardship or anyone who wasn't as wealthy as she was, she and Daniel probably would have made themselves miserable within weeks. Meanwhile, as a daughter of royalty, Regina was perfectly capable of fitting in at the palace if she'd wanted to. She'd have known how to dress, what utensils to use at dinner, what the protocol was. She wouldn't have been out of place.

But if she'd been poorer, it would have been a different story. Then Daniel would have been a viable option as husband for her if she hadn't been forced to marry elsewhere, so it's a much greater loss. The king asking for her hand after her heroic rescue of Snow would have been a very fairy tale sort of thing, and I don't think her status had anything to do with it, so it still could have happened. In this scenario, Cora wouldn't have been able to be a powerful sorceress -- it was already straining belief that she married a prince and didn't somehow manage to make herself queen, so it's impossible to believe that she'd remain a miller's daughter or be a farmer's wife if she had power -- but a social climbing mother wouldn't let her daughter throw away the chance to be a queen, even if she was in love with someone else. The relationship with Daniel not being a scandal might mean it wasn't a secret, so the secret Snow told would have to be different. Maybe, say, Regina and Daniel marry in secret, and once that's a done deal, she thinks that will be safe because she won't be able to marry the king. Snow finds out about the wedding and can't bear for Regina not to have her mother at the wedding and tells her, and Cora murders Daniel some normal way, like stabbing or poisoning him. Regina figures if she can't marry Daniel, she might as well marry the king. Then she feels very out of place at the palace as a rube who doesn't know what fork to use, and she gets mocked by the court.

I think I might have found her more sympathetic. Then she'd truly have been an underdog. It's hard to take seriously an "underdog" who's spent her whole life in palaces and mansions. Really, Regina's background is yet another one of those mutually exclusive things they want us to believe -- she's a princess and an underdog. Strangely, the fact that Henry Sr. is a prince never comes up other than in "The Miller's Daughter" when Cora plays out the Rumplestiltskin fairy tale. You've got to wonder why Cora bothered ripping her heart out to make herself able to marry him, only to end up stuck at a country estate instead of at court and not have worked her way through all the brothers to get power. She'd have had more wealth and power if she'd just stayed with Rumple.

Where did Henry's family land in the curse? Were Henry and Cora estranged from them, and that's why they weren't at court? We never hear about all of Regina's uncles or that kingdom.

[Camera One]

Hi, this is Adam and Eddy here.

45 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Where did Henry's family land in the curse? Were Henry and Cora estranged from them, and that's why they weren't at court? We never hear about all of Regina's uncles or that kingdom.

That's not the story we wanted to tell.  We are more interested in strong females, not men.

45 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Really, Regina's background is yet another one of those mutually exclusive things they want us to believe -- she's a princess and an underdog.

Thanks, we like being the "first" to try untested waters!

45 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Regina, having been raised in privilege, probably wouldn't have fared well if she'd tried running away with Daniel.

Snow was able to adapt to her new circumstances.  So would Regina, who was stronger and better and more bold and audacious.  We found out in the Season 5 finale that Bandit Regina was everything Bandit Snow was and more!

45 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Would Regina's story have been more palatable if she hadn't been a princess, hadn't grown up in privilege? If, say, she was a miller's daughter, or a farm girl instead of the daughter of a prince and granddaughter of a king (and possibly by the time she's an adult, niece of a king).

That was the story we planned to tell in Season 11 and 12, respectively, but alas.  

45 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

In this scenario, Cora wouldn't have been able to be a powerful sorceress

We wouldn't change Cora in all the world.  She's the epitome of awesome.

Quote

You've got to wonder why Cora bothered ripping her heart out to make herself able to marry him, only to end up stuck at a country estate instead of at court and not have worked her way through all the brothers to get power. She'd have had more wealth and power if she'd just stayed with Rumple.

Our goal was always to make the viewers wonder and wonder and wonder and wonder and wonder.  It looks like we succeeded!   Cora was such a deep character, and we share your need to know more and more about her psyche!

21 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Also that he really doesn't end up sacrificing his powers or himself to find Bae. There were a lot of other ways to Land without Magic but none that would let him keep his powers. And how long it took. If we saw Rumple trying a bunch of different ways and only ending up doing the Curse because nothing else worked.  That might be more sympathetic.

That was implied when we (and Belle) saw him crying (inside) at his spinning wheel.  What a lonely character!  We can't help but have sympathy for him.

Quote

Even when people do what she wants like Hansel and Gretel getting the apple she rewards them by separating them from their father because they didn't want to live with her.  

It is indeed sad that Regina was so lonely that she has to lash out.  Hansel and Gretel eventually reunited with their father, so all's well that ends well.  We want to reinforce on this show that there's no need crying over spilled milk.  It's the moments that matter.  The here and now.

19 hours ago, companionenvy said:

I'm sure if you asked A&E, they'd point to her losing Henry in 2A and again in 3B as "rock bottom."

Yes!  Thanks for "getting it"!

Well, we've got to go to work on our next set of "Amazing Stories".  Toodles.

Sincerely,

A&E

Edited September 30, 2018 by Camera One

[Guest]

On ‎9‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 4:10 PM, Shanna Marie said:

Would Regina's story have been more palatable if she hadn't been a princess, hadn't grown up in privilege? If, say, she was a miller's daughter, or a farm girl instead of the daughter of a prince and granddaughter of a king (and possibly by the time she's an adult, niece of a king).

I think the answer to that is yes, but at the same time Snow White has to be the very picture of a spoiled, emptied headed good for nothing princess.

To make Regina sympathetic, she needs to be one of the people and have an innate ability to understand what they need and try to do the best for them in spite of how Cora raised her.  Then in the face of that she should be met with ridicule from nobility and peasant alike because of her lack of noble breeding.  Then the last straw is Leopold installing her as some kind of Regent for Snow White, who has shown no redeeming qualities or ability to rule, until she comes of age and ignoring that Regina is the rightful Queen.  Regina then plans to dispatch Snow for the good of the kingdom.  That act blackens Regina's heart, while fleeing the castle and meeting the dwarves forces Snow White to grow into a better person.

But even then, they wouldn't be able to maintain a sympathetic villain very long.  And the more Snow White changed for the better, the less it would work.

And that is the crux of it for me, the Evil Queen and Snow White can't both be sympathetic. 

[companionenvy]

2 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

And that is the crux of it for me, the Evil Queen and Snow White can't both be sympathetic. 

I don't actually think this is true. It all comes down to nuance. First of all, If Regina had been portrayed as oh, say, 30% less evil, it wouldn't have been necessary to tear down Snow to give her a credible redemption. She can be clearly in the wrong without being the remorseless, unloving sadist we see in S1 and flashbacks. This is especially true if you're not committed to making her and Snow best friends.

But the show also should have been able to inject a certain amount of nuance in the conflict with Snow without jeopardizing her character. I made a post in the Manhattan thread about how one of the writers' main problems is that they can't tell the difference between flawed behavior, unforgiveable behavior, and genuine evil - or between the difference between realistically flawed behavior, or even evil-but-understandable behavior, and behavior that it would be hard to imagine any decent person being capable of. In the case of Snow, had she been slightly older and deliberately told Cora (or Leopold) about Daniel for the selfish reason of wanting Regina to be her stepmother - without, of course, having any idea it would lead to Daniel's death -- that would be within the realm of realistically flawed behavior that would then make Regina's vendetta against her less crazypants. Similarly, being a bratty teen, if that was something we had seen, would be an extremely realistic flaw that shouldn't lead to demonizing Snow, or meaningfully change the rights and wrongs of the conflict with Regina. What it would have done, taken in combination of toning down the extent of Regina's evil, would have made Regina's actions somewhat more understandable. Unfortunately, the show's way of dealing with it was rather to have Regina do OTT evil things but continually minimize the extent of her crimes, and then trying to even the score with Snow by, alternately, shaming her for things that weren't her fault at all, treating what was at worst slightly gray - and certainly fully understandable -- behavior from her as evil and heart-corrupting, and then actually making her and David guilty of a crime that falls in to the "hard to imagine a decent person doing this" category. 

Back to the issue of Regina's wealth, I don't think Regina had to be poor; obviously rich people can also have crappy lives and sympathetic stories, and given Cora's abuse, that's true of Regina to an extent. But again, it is an issue of proportion. Given the enormity of Regina's crimes, the only thing that would come close to preserving her as a sympathetic figure would have been revealing that she'd basically grown up in a total hellscape, especially given that most other characters have pretty crappy backstories, and that she lives in a feudal world in which the majority of people obviously have a pretty rough time of it. Instead, she grows up in luxury, with one loving if weak parent, and a mother who is abusive without making Regina's life such a perpetual torment that it really explains, you know, mass murder. The fact that she is then made Queen compounds this. Again, being Queen doesn't mean she isn't allowed to feel trapped in a loveless marriage, but even leaving aside the fact that she went into the marriage willingly, it is hard not to think she should have been able to look on the bright side and make the best of being among the most powerful people in the realm sometime before resorting to serial killing. Regina had a lot of options, before and after Leopold's murder, to make a nice, if not perfect life for herself. But, of course, as always, she has to have everything or she can't be happy.

But really, the worst of it is that she keeps all of her privileges in Storybrooke, which is the ultimate sign of how little the writers either recognize that this is someone who needs to be majorly taken down a peg in a sustained way to even come close to being worthy of sympathy, or that there's no realistic world in which anyone should be allowing Regina to continue serving as mayor and benefitting from the ritzy life she gave herself as part of the curse. 

[Camera One]

54 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

First of all, If Regina had been portrayed as oh, say, 30% less evil, it wouldn't have been necessary to tear down Snow to give her a credible redemption. 

She can be clearly in the wrong without being the remorseless, unloving sadist we see in S1 and flashbacks.

This is all it would take for me.  I have no problem with Regina blaming Snow for something that wasn't really her fault, if they showed Regina having some sort of psychotic break with reality.  If they had made her "redeemed" self realize at some point how irrational she was, and finally admit the blame was on Cora, that would have gone a long way.  But nope.  

Quote

This is especially true if you're not committed to making her and Snow best friends.

This was the other thing.  This ranked as one of the most unnatural developments in the whole series and yet it's one of the things A&E is the most proud of.

[KingOfHearts]

On 9/30/2018 at 3:10 PM, Shanna Marie said:

Would Regina's story have been more palatable if she hadn't been a princess, hadn't grown up in privilege?

Zelena is probably the answer to that question. She mirrored her sister in many ways, but she grew up in poorer conditions. I think it makes her slightly more sympathetic but she has that same entitled attitude. She was a lot more self-aware about her flaws than Regina, especially starting in 5B. As for her karmic payback, she was imprisoned in various ways, killed by Rumple, lost her boyfriend, got banished to Oz, and was left alone in the farmhouse. Oh, and she turned green. It doesn't equate to her crimes, but I do think the characters treated her like she needed to be punished. They tried to serve some sort of justice and ultimately Zelena wanted to change. However, I don't think she ever had a sympathetic cause like Hook or Rumple until Robyn came into the picture. She blamed Regina for being "born" and that was as bad if not worse than blaming Snow for telling a secret.

IMO, Zelena's redemption is better than Regina's but not as good as Hook's.

Edited October 2, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[companionenvy]

Zelena also didn't have as much to atone for as Regina. She may have wanted to do more, but her actual body count wound up being pretty low. I also think she leaned closer to what we might call actual, clinical insanity, to the point where a real justice system might have institutionalized her rather than sent her to an ordinary prison. 

I'll have to wait for that part in the rewatch to really weigh in, as Zelena's storyline honestly didn't register with me much, but my sense is that she wasn't particularly sympathetic as a villain and didn't have a terribly compelling redemption arc, but also didn't have the narrative-warping powers of Regina or even Rumple, on occasion, so it wasn't much of a problem. It also helps that she loses her magic for years. 

I was, however, bothered by her getting to raise Robyn with what seemed like minimal supervision, especially as this meant permanently separating Robyn from Roland. Useless as he generally was, I have to believe this would have been totally against Robin Hood's wishes, and as I think the parental rights of rapists to the children conceived of that rape should be severed as a rule anyway, it is his wishes that should have been respected. IMO, despite my feelings about Regina, she's the one who should have wound up with Robyn, if not both of the Hood kids, as I suspect that is what Robin would have wanted.

Though, not going to lie, I'd love to be a fly on the wall for a scene where Whook catches Hook up on who his daughter is marrying. He wasn't connected enough to Emma at the time to properly appreciate the WTF of the whole Emma's babydaddy being Baelfire thing, so it is only fair that he should get to experience the full bizarreness of Storybrooke/Hyperion Heights family values.

Though now that I mention it, in all seriousness, I would actually have loved to see Hook's reaction to learning exactly how Rumple died, which is a scene they could have made time for in the finale.

[Shanna Marie]

19 hours ago, companionenvy said:

First of all, If Regina had been portrayed as oh, say, 30% less evil, it wouldn't have been necessary to tear down Snow to give her a credible redemption. She can be clearly in the wrong without being the remorseless, unloving sadist we see in S1 and flashbacks.

I think that's the real issue, that Regina was so over-the-top evil that even if she'd witnessed an adult Snow personally ripping the heart out of Daniel's chest and crushing it, Regina's transformation and subsequent actions would have been way out of proportion, regardless of Regina's background. A vendetta against Snow, like Hook's against Rumple, maybe. Slaughtering villages and destroying a whole civilization to get back at one person, no.

Actually, come to think of it, they gave Hook almost the same triggering incident as Regina. Both of them were forced to watch someone rip out and crush the heart of the person they loved. But Hook also had his hand cut off, so you could say his situation was worse. And Hook had a much worse background. He'd already tragically lost his brother, and then there was being sold into slavery by his father as a child and spending his childhood as an enslaved deckhand. Hook's vendetta against Rumple was a bit over the top, given that he went to Neverland so he could live longer to find a way to kill Rumple and went to work for Pan to ensure his survival in Neverland. But he stayed mostly focused on going after Rumple and anyone who might have information on him, or doing the things he needed to reach Rumple. With him, it wasn't a drastic personality flip, since he was already a pirate following his brother's death, and we don't know how drastic or sudden that flip was. He seems to have gone from fighting one war to fighting another, just under a different flag and with different rules, then expanded from there to piracy. That's not as unlikely as Regina going from wide-eyed innocent to psychopathic mass murderer.

Then we have Regina, coming from an easier background, supposedly a much better person before the triggering point, and she goes totally nuts against the wrong person entirely. All the absolutely insane things she did weren't against the person who actually did the heart ripping. The way Hook treats Smee would have been a far more realistic way for Regina to have treated Snow, with that disdain and snark, even while Smee seems to utterly adore Hook.

So, while I think there could have been some interesting story stuff if Regina hadn't been born to privilege and while the story would have made more sense if Snow had actually done anything, there's nothing that would have justified the way Regina acted. Even without all the village slaughter, just the curse is overkill. Unfortunately, it's the basis of the show, and it's really hard to justify it or to imagine forgiving it. It's bad enough that the people she targeted became her best friends, but the random people who got caught up in it and had their lives destroyed for no good reason seem to have been okay enough with her that they voted her queen.

[companionenvy]

6 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

Even without all the village slaughter, just the curse is overkill. Unfortunately, it's the basis of the show, and it's really hard to justify it or to imagine forgiving it. It's bad enough that the people she targeted became her best friends, but the random people who got caught up in it and had their lives destroyed for no good reason seem to have been okay enough with her that they voted her queen.

It is crazy that they vote her queen given her reign of terror in the EF, but it still isn't clear to me that, in the context of the crazy magical world they live in, that the curse itself was so bad for most people that it should have led to an intractable grudge.

It was terrible for Snowing and Emma, since Emma was outside the curse so they actually lost 28 years together, plus Regina deliberately split Snow and Charming up in Storybrooke, leading to both of them unwittingly sleeping with other people, the adultery debacle, etc. It was terrible for Henry, once he got old enough to realize how wrong the situation was, because he also wasn't cursed and had to deal with a normal age progression and memory when everyone around him was frozen and getting resets. It was terrible for Jefferson, because Regina purposely left him awake, and even after the curse broke, she was putting him, Grace, and the family who had memories of raising her as their own in a heartwrenching situation. And it was terrible for Belle, who presumably has memories of an extended stay in a prison-like asylum.

But for the average SBer? That's less obvious. I mean, yes, it is an outrageous violation on any terms, but I'm not sure that the curse was, as a rule, ripping apart families and consigning people to hellish lives. In fact, most people seem to have wound up in some reasonable modern extrapolation of their EF identity, and retained, in some form, their closest relationships. Archie is a therapist, and close friends with Geppetto the carpenter. The dwarves are all part of a mining team. The fairies, who apparently had anti-fraternization rules even in the EF, are living together as nuns. Whale the scientist becomes Whale the doctor. Granny and Ruby are at odds, but they are still together. Other than the people who were specifically being punished, it seems to me that you only lost your loved ones if you had been separated prior to the curse, i.e Hansel and Gretel and their father. 

And, of course, since they were frozen, most people at least didn't lose time to the curse. It is ridiculous and minimizing when Regina responds to Snow's remark that she stole Emma from her with "Well, you got her back," because she only got her back after losing her entire childhood and early adulthood. That's a less crazy claim to make in the case of most other people. Not that Regina deserves  credit for it, as she intended the curse to last forever, but - again in the context of a crazy magical world where, as we learn over the years, tons of people who had no relationship to Regina wind up in similarly bizarre situations, for a variety of reasons (the Cora-dome was a direct response to Regina's curse, but you've also got places like Neverland, and even Hook's father, we learn, randomly winds up in long-term stasis) -- I can see why most people would eventually come around to a "no harm, no foul" way of thinking. For a lot of people, given what we see of life in the EF, the curse may ultimately have wound up being the best thing that ever happened to them. Again, Regina doesn't deserve credit for it, since that wasn't her intention, but of all the reasons people could have for hating her, the curse actually might not be that high up on the list. 

[andromeda331]

It never stops bothering me that people aren't allowed to respond to Regina like they should. Regina's remark about getting Emma back. Snow should have fired back that she only missed her entire childhood and life and her daughter ended up alone having a crappy childhood. Or her remark to Charming about putting Emma in box and shipping her to Maine. As if Regina and her Black Knights weren't on their way to murder Emma. I still don't know how Geppetto got away with his remark to Regina. Almost everything with Regina is just so over the top and ridiculous. Overhearing Charming and Snow saying they don't want Regina to come back with them. Why is that a surprise? After everything she did to them? But no Regina is all hurt and decides she'll just murder everyone. Yeah, there's someone to find sympathetic. Or when she's being tortured by Greg/Owen. Oh, look at how evil he is. All Regina did was try to kidnap him and murdered his father!  God forbid Regina actually have to face any of her victims who are pissed off at what she did and want to hurt her.  She gets away with everything she does. She never once has to pay for anything she did. She should have. Equally ridiculous is everyone's reaction to her. Regina undid her spell and saved Snow and Emma. Who cares she tried to murder them up until that moment. She undid the failsafe and is a hero! Who cares she was going to do the same thing and the only reason she didn't was someone else got to it first. Her boyfriend's wife who she murdered comes back and everyone flocks to poor Regina and acts like Marion is horrible. Instead of yet another victim of Regina. Robin's reaction to learning Regina offed his wife in the past? Well, clearly that doesn't bother him since he still acts like he wants to be with Regina but can't because darn Marion returned. Regina's all upset and whining over not getting a happy ending. Everyone but Geppetto falls over themselves to help her get it rather then ask her why she thinks she deserves one after everything she's done? Why if she's "good" she's never once apologized for anything she's done or return the hearts. 

[Shanna Marie]

On 10/3/2018 at 2:55 AM, companionenvy said:

But for the average SBer? That's less obvious. I mean, yes, it is an outrageous violation on any terms, but I'm not sure that the curse was, as a rule, ripping apart families and consigning people to hellish lives.

It's hard to tell because they had zero interest in the average SBer, so we don't know much about what their cursed lives were like or what they thought about the curse and the aftermath.

There was the convoy for the town line that suggested that the We Are Both existence was traumatic and difficult. Not that this was ever mentioned again.

Cinderella and her prince and his family don't seem to have been part of the inner circle that Regina would have had reason to get particular revenge on. They were even from another kingdom (you'd think, since there was a king and a prince), but Cinderella was separated from her husband and made to think she was an unwed teenager. Her husband was coerced by his parents into ditching her. She was stuck with a stepmother and stepsister even though we later learned her stepmother and stepsister were in the Land of Untold Stories, so she was put into a hellish existence. Was she the only one outside the war council who was tortured that way?

Then there were the aftermath issues. Like what about Jefferson's daughter and her curse parents? Did she feel torn between her father and the people who were her parents during the curse? Did they feel the loss of their "daughter" after the curse? Were there others like that?

Hansel and Gretel were separated from their father before the curse, but they spent the whole curse as homeless orphans.

For the Enchanted Forest peasants, the curse must have been a bit of an upgrade -- going from a hovel to a small-town home with indoor plumbing and electricity. But what about the nobility and royalty, going from palaces and being in charge to being just another average citizen in a small town? We never got a follow-up with Cinderella's king. Would he have voted for Regina as Queen of the Universe? For mayor? Even if they did end up liking Storybrooke, would they be okay with having their lives completely uprooted that way?

What about the people who were turned into different species? That's a huge violation. Did they have body dysphoria? The dwarfs remarked upon the curse reverse that they were handsome again, so did they feel like they were stuck in the wrong bodies? What about the fairies?

So it's hard for me to imagine all these people voting for Regina to be their leader. The ones who never dealt with her might tolerate her, but hail her as their queen? I doubt it.

But mostly, it's a worldbuilding fail to have something so extreme happen and not really address it at all. The curse was merely a plot device to put fairy tale characters in a modern setting. They don't seem to have cared at all about the ramifications of it.

[Camera One]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

Was she the only one outside the war council who was tortured that way?

For the Enchanted Forest peasants, the curse must have been a bit of an upgrade -- going from a hovel to a small-town home with indoor plumbing and electricity. 

Unless they were all separated from/estranged from their loved ones (even those who were living together like Red and Granny were at each other's throats).  In the pilot, Regina said they're going to a place where the only happy ending would be hers.  Rumple also said in his cell that there would be no happy endings.  

Edited October 5, 2018 by Camera One

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

It's hard to tell because they had zero interest in the average SBer, so we don't know much about what their cursed lives were like or what they thought about the curse and the aftermath.

There was the convoy for the town line that suggested that the We Are Both existence was traumatic and difficult. Not that this was ever mentioned again.

Cinderella and her prince and his family don't seem to have been part of the inner circle that Regina would have had reason to get particular revenge on. They were even from another kingdom (you'd think, since there was a king and a prince), but Cinderella was separated from her husband and made to think she was an unwed teenager. Her husband was coerced by his parents into ditching her. She was stuck with a stepmother and stepsister even though we later learned her stepmother and stepsister were in the Land of Untold Stories, so she was put into a hellish existence. Was she the only one outside the war council who was tortured that way?

Then there were the aftermath issues. Like what about Jefferson's daughter and her curse parents? Did she feel torn between her father and the people who were her parents during the curse? Did they feel the loss of their "daughter" after the curse? Were there others like that?

Hansel and Gretel were separated from their father before the curse, but they spent the whole curse as homeless orphans.

For the Enchanted Forest peasants, the curse must have been a bit of an upgrade -- going from a hovel to a small-town home with indoor plumbing and electricity. But what about the nobility and royalty, going from palaces and being in charge to being just another average citizen in a small town? We never got a follow-up with Cinderella's king. Would he have voted for Regina as Queen of the Universe? For mayor? Even if they did end up liking Storybrooke, would they be okay with having their lives completely uprooted that way?

What about the people who were turned into different species? That's a huge violation. Did they have body dysphoria? The dwarfs remarked upon the curse reverse that they were handsome again, so did they feel like they were stuck in the wrong bodies? What about the fairies?

So it's hard for me to imagine all these people voting for Regina to be their leader. The ones who never dealt with her might tolerate her, but hail her as their queen? I doubt it.

But mostly, it's a worldbuilding fail to have something so extreme happen and not really address it at all. The curse was merely a plot device to put fairy tale characters in a modern setting. They don't seem to have cared at all about the ramifications of it.

These were all things I wished they would have going into. I really wanted to know what was going to happen to these people after the Curse broke. How did Grace feel about the parents she thought were her parents for 28 years and her father. What happened to Cinderella, Thomas, and his father? The man almost got rid of his own grandchild how did he feel about that? How long did it take for the family put all that behind them? Yes, they were under the curse but they still remember what they did or were forced to do under the Curse. But sure they'd be okay with Regina becoming Mayor again and vote her into Queen of the Universe. 

[companionenvy]

Basically, this was a show that desperately needed more, more or less one-off episodes after season 1 - or, at least, to make better use of them. In other fandoms, I've heard them referred to as "Monster of the Week" episodes - episodes where, while the ongoing, serialized arc is still going on in the background, you mostly wind up focusing on a self-contained problem for the space of that episode. At their worst, such episodes can come off as filler, but done right, it gives the show a chance to highlight characters, relationships, and issues that get lost if everything that happens is so directly related to the arc-plot. 

Once has some of those, but they generally aren't really dealing with what the show most needs to deal with. For instance, I think "Tiny"was an enjoyable enough episode in its own right, and the main plot there, while nominally part of Cora's plan, really has very little effect on anything else going on. But since Tiny disappears after that, it winds up being something of a waste, and not the best use of time for the series: we get this one-off character's story, and it is fairly good, but it doesn't tell us anything meaningful about any of our core characters, and doesn't address the emotional ramifications of post-curse SB, which is what we need. This is another area where the flashbacks wind up being a problem at times, because it means that an unhealthy proportion of the one-off type adventures take place in the past. They may give us some insight into a character, or explain a character's headspace, which are good things, but they aren't really doing the work of advancing relationships. Like (admittedly, using a particularly egregious example), we get the Charming-Anna-Bo-Peep episode, which maybe tells us something about Charming, but it isn't doing anything for his character in the present. It basically just establishes how he knows Anna. They also just take up so much damn time, especially when we have half-season arcs, that it means the present-day scenes are going to have to be dominated by plot, because if you're spending all of your character-development moments on things that happened years earlier, you can't make a lot of space for that kind of thing in the present-day scenes. 

What's weird is that Emma at least nominally being the sheriff actually should have given them a lot of room to throw in some one-off, procedural type adventures. Like, imagine an episode in 2B in which Jefferson comes to Emma frantic because Grace has gone missing. It turns out her parents from the curse year have kidnapped her and are planning on taking her over the town line. This would have done double-duty in dealing with the emotional ramifications of the curse breaking for the average person, and also setting up a scenario that naturally would have led to some attention to Emma's relationships to both Henry and her parents. Because the natural end to that episode would be Emma - and Snowing, if they were part of it, as they should have been -- convincing Jefferson and Grace's curse-parents that they needed to do the hard work of renegotiating the parameters of their relationships under these very strange circumstances, which is precisely what she is figuring out with her parents. Or, if we had pushed the episode off to 3B, after Emma herself has gotten false memories of raising Henry, it could also have addressed Emma's feelings about finding out that those eleven years were based on a lie and now having to deal with the prospect of sharing Henry with Regina.

Beyond that, we should have just had some fun adventure episodes in which the angst and gloom and doom gave way to a fun caper. This would also have advanced relationships, in the end, because we could have seen people like the Charming family or Emma and Hook - whose relationship does get a lot of development, but generally always in the angstiest and most highly charged situations -- enjoying each other's company and establishing how they relate to one another outside of the crisis of the week.