A Thread for All Seasons: This Story Is Over, But Still Goes On.

[KAOS Agent]

They had no idea what to do with Emma once she got back to town in 2B. She had some minor role in the Regina/Cora stuff, but that was mostly focused back on Snowing vs Regina and Emma was largely irrelevant (even though she should not have been). They instead saddled her with the Neal/Tamara drama with everyone insisting she was jealous and even that never amounted to much. You could remove her character from most of 2B and nothing would change. You cannot write a cohesive story when you can so easily remove the main protagonist from the board.

There also wasn't an overarching plot for 2B. The characters were all off in their little boxes concerned about their own needs. Cora v Whoever got in her way, Snowing v Regina, Greg/Tamara v Regina/magic and Rumpel v Hook with some minor detours to focus on side characters like August and Whale. On the relationship side, you had Rumpel/Bae (briefly), Rumpel/Belle, Emma/Neal (also briefly), Neal/Tamara, Regina/Henry and Regina/Cora. Notice how very little the Charmings or Emma appeared in that list? The backbone of the show was missing from most of 2B even as the show was floundering with little direction about where it was going with its story. Even in the end when everyone finally had a goal, they remained so stuck in their boxes that Rumpel couldn't be bothered to help stop the doomsday device and just sat around with Belle waiting to die. 

Edited February 20, 2018 by KAOS Agent

[Rumsy4]

9 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Oh yes. With no mention of Charming sleeping with Kathryn or Regina attempting to seduce him. 

This is one of the many sexist things David did, but was never called out on. He repeatedly lashed out at Snow over the Whale thing, but never seemed to have felt a qualm about sleeping with Kathryn (and how did Kathryn feel about it?). He got offended that James had kissed Snow in the Underworld, but spend hours making out with Cruella later, pretending to be James. Whenever it came to actually standing up to Snow where it truly mattered, he always wimped out. His overprotective dad act was just too much for me, especially as it was only to do with Hook, and never Neal. 

And really, having David teach Regina to dance at Camelot after what she'd pulled during the Curse, and not even actually dance with Emma just shows how much the writers had their heads stuck up (redacted).

3 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

You could remove [Emma] from most of 2B and nothing would change. 

You could also remove her from 3B and 5B and all of season 6. That's how much A&E cared about Emma.

[KingOfHearts]

3 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

(and how did Kathryn feel about it?)

How did Frederick feel about it? Does he get to punch Charming in the face?

Quote

They had no idea what to do with Emma once she got back to town in 2B. She had some minor role in the Regina/Cora stuff, but that was mostly focused back on Snowing vs Regina and Emma was largely irrelevant (even though she should not have been). They instead saddled her with the Neal/Tamara drama with everyone insisting she was jealous and even that never amounted to much. You could remove her character from most of 2B and nothing would change. You cannot write a cohesive story when you can so easily remove the main protagonist from the board.

There was this subplot about Snowing using the magic beans to move everyone to EF, with Emma being conflicted about it. I always forget that ever even happened. I remember Greg/Tamara and the failsafe, but the magic bean exodus always goes under the radar for me. It should have been a really big deal, but it was only a plot device to make beans.

Edited February 20, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[andromeda331]

24 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

How did Frederick feel about it? Does he get to punch Charming in the face?

There was this subplot about Snowing using the magic beans to move everyone to EF, with Emma being conflicted about it. I always forget that ever even happened. I remember Greg/Tamara and the failsafe, but the magic bean exodus always goes under the radar for me. It should have been a really big deal, but it was only a plot device to make beans.

I hope Frederick punched Charming in the face! I agree about the magic bean. That really should have bigger story. Who wanted to go back to the Enchanted Forest? Were there people who didn't want to go back? It should have been a big deal for the Charmings. When they showed Emma the magic beans it was clear she didn't want to back. While Snow and Charming did want to go home it and probably assumed after the Curse broke they'd all go home and their family would be together living in the palace. It never occurred to them their daughter wouldn't want to do that. Because it wasn't her home. She didn't really seem to enjoy it when she was there with Snow.   

[andromeda331]

They really skipped over a lot of interesting stuff in Season Two (well in all seasons) it would have been fun to watch the Charming family figuring out how to live together. Emma's independent and been on her own her whole life it wouldn't be that easy for her to live with her parents. Snow and Charming trying to figure out how to adjust to a daughter who  was the same age as them and had a crappy childhood. They missed everything, including her becoming a mother. Plus they come from two completely different worlds. 

[Rumsy4]

2 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Emma's independent and been on her own her whole life it wouldn't be that easy for her to live with her parents.

But that would involve writing "kitchen sink" conversations, and apparently they're boring. 

[Guest]

18 hours ago, Camera One said:

Or even borderline "normal" writers.  I mean, what type of headwriters push major main characters to the background by the middle of Season 2 and then ignore some of the biggest core relationships (Emma/Snow) for the rest of the show?  What writers jump over truly meaty redemption stories and claim a villain is misunderstood while giving them a never-before mentioned history of mass murder?  

On reflection, it is rather remarkable that this show was as shallow as it was given the pedigree of some of the writing staff in the early seasons.  A&E must have handed down a directive that the show be this way.  It seems like it would be rather difficult for "normal" writers with an above average track record, which some had, to turn out something like post season 1.  The head writers must be more important (or interfering) to the process than I thought.  I would think that writers block alone would have driven them to the source material to add a little depth or spark a clever idea which didn't seem to happen.

15 hours ago, Camera One said:

Now that you mention it, the lack of interest in building Emma and David in 2B is really quite striking.  A&E wrote David wanting to go back to the Enchanted Forest without much second thought.  I'm glad that they eventually did give Emma and David some good scenes in Season 3, but I wonder if that was because Ginny was pregnant and had less screentime. 

David definitely got the parenting role when Ginny was pregnant.  And they evened out on the Emma abandonment when Snow was nonchalant about staying with David in Neverland and the baby stuff in the Echo Cave.

I hate the Echo Cave.  Ugh,

6 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I hope Frederick punched Charming in the face! I agree about the magic bean. That really should have bigger story. Who wanted to go back to the Enchanted Forest? Were there people who didn't want to go back? It should have been a big deal for the Charmings. When they showed Emma the magic beans it was clear she didn't want to back. While Snow and Charming did want to go home it and probably assumed after the Curse broke they'd all go home and their family would be together living in the palace. It never occurred to them their daughter wouldn't want to do that. Because it wasn't her home. She didn't really seem to enjoy it when she was there with Snow.   

I forgot about the magic beans too.  But I think in my head it was because I was horrified about all the fairy tale characters wanting to kill every hapless stranger that accidentally crossed into Storybrooke.  Yes, Regina and Rumple can live here but lets kill nameless coma car accident guy before he's had a chance to do anything.

[Camera One]

8 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

When they showed Emma the magic beans it was clear she didn't want to back. While Snow and Charming did want to go home it and probably assumed after the Curse broke they'd all go home and their family would be together living in the palace. It never occurred to them their daughter wouldn't want to do that. 

Snow pointed that out to David either that episode or the one before, in one short conversation.  But instead of being a main plot, it was more like a side C plot.  Once again, as mentioned above, it shows how disinterested A&E were in their relationship by 2B.  

[Shanna Marie]

On 2/19/2018 at 8:31 PM, KingOfHearts said:

Fairy tales are not the kind of media you can draw multiple conclusions out of. They're not open for interpretation, but rather straight and to the point. They are formulaic, follow simple structures, bow to familiar tropes, and have a strong beginning, middle, and end. You can't extract a bunch of "moral grayness" very easily without twisting them into pretzels. You're not going to read Snow White and Seven Dwarves and think, "Gee, I wonder if the Evil Queen was misunderstood". (Well, unless you're A&E.) If you could, it would be a different story. However, there seems to be a trend nowadays to analyze them to death and grasp at things that simply weren't there in the source material. There's a lot of "maybe's" and "what if's", but not "oh yes, I definitely see it in this different way".

I think this is another one of those worst of all possibilities things. In the first season, they struck a good balance. The show was retelling the story of Snow White, but fleshed out so that it's not just the black-and-white morality and archetypes rather than characters. It was basically the same story, but giving more details about what was going on, having Snow and Charming meet and be in love before the True Love's Kiss, and having there be more depth to the Evil Queen's motivation than being fairest in the land. But then they pretty much lost it all. They quit telling fairy tale stories, for the most part. It got to the point that if you showed people unfamiliar with the series the later seasons and bleeped out the character names, they'd never be able to figure out who these characters were supposed to be (other than the really obvious ones, like Hook with his hook). When they did the Peter Pan arc, it wasn't a retelling or a fleshing out of the story. When they did the Wicked Witch of the West, they crammed the whole Dorothy story into part of one episode. It wasn't like they added substance or depth to the original story. I guess Frozen kind of worked because it was a sequel, but from that point on, they weren't really using fairy tales. At the same time, they became even more black-and-white than the fairy tales, with all that talk of heroes and villains. Even in fairy tales, no one talks about wanting to be a hero or the differences between heroes and villains. Meanwhile, they made the villains even more evil than they are in fairy tales. The Evil Queen in Snow White just kept trying to kill Snow. She wasn't slaughtering villages. But then the heroes are considered evil for taking actions against the villains.

So they haven't really fleshed out the stories, they haven't delved into any moral complexities, they don't have any real gray areas.

[Rumsy4]

2 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

So they haven't really fleshed out the stories, they haven't delved into any moral complexities, they don't have any real gray areas.

Instead they have Woegina and Dumbelle.

[KAOS Agent]

After I posted last night, it occurred to me that 2B was almost entirely framed as villain vs villain. Regina v Greg, Rumpel v Hook, Cora v Rumpel and Regina v Snow. Now you wouldn't think Snow was the villain, but they spent a good amount of 2B trying to pretend that Snow was the worst of the worst. It all culminated in The Evil Queen when Regina slaughtered an entire village and Snow's reaction of horror was responsible for Regina going evil again. It was all Snow's fault for not giving Regina another chance after seeing the piles of bodies left behind. 

In the other main plots, you have Regina, who murdered Owen's father and left him orphaned, painted in the sympathetic light when he tries to get some justice and closure on his father. Then Redeemed!Regina grinned when she found out Owen was dead. Rumpel murdered Milah and took Hook's hand, but woobie Rumpel was out in full force in 2B. Of course, he was totally down with beating the crap out of Nottingham when Lacey thought it was hot. Poor Rumpel. And then Bae was mean to him. I'm not interested in comparing the crimes of these people, but the whole back half was basically the actual victims being berated for trying to get justice while mass murdering psychopaths were portrayed as the sympathetic victims. 

I suspect that in addition to the wandering incomprehensible storylines, the lack of positive progress by good people is what turned a large portion of the audience off. There was no hope for the good guys in Storybrooke. What was there to feel good about? I never really thought about it, but I think this is why I quit watching in 2B.

[Rumsy4]

12 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

the whole back half was basically the actual victims being berated for trying to get justice while mass murdering psychopaths were portrayed as the sympathetic victims. 

2B was the definite turning point of the series. That's when A&E's true agenda came through. At the end of Season 1, I assumed that Season 2 would focus on how the good guys started rebuilding their own lives, and slowly defeat Rumple and Regina in the "Final Battle". Little did I know the so-called "Final Battle" would be ridiculous, boring, and completely anticlimactic. 

[KingOfHearts]

48 minutes ago, XrystalPond said:

I sometimes think that A&E learned to write/plot from television ads. "You want a final battle? We'll give you one with absolutely no resolution to what we've been telling you and changing since season 1. There will be swords. There will be dark scenes. There will be...well, there will be stuff. And wait, there's more!"

I see you read their pitch for S6.

Edited February 21, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[tennisgurl]

8 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

2B was the definite turning point of the series. That's when A&E's true agenda came through. At the end of Season 1, I assumed that Season 2 would focus on how the good guys started rebuilding their own lives, and slowly defeat Rumple and Regina in the "Final Battle"

Yeah, as much as we love to complain about this shows never ending obsession about villains, it wasn't really until 2B where we all started to see what A&E were really up to. Before that, while we were allowed to have sympathy for the villains, they were still the villains, and the show was about the heroes and how they defeated the villains, and dealt with their issues, both the issues the villains created, and their natural problems. The first season and 2A were just fine in how they showed the heroes and villains, but after 2B? It became "Woobie villains and mean old heroes" for the entire rest of the damn show. 

Ironically, looking at season 1 again, it almost seems like they're setting up Rumple for the big redemption, and not Regina. Rumpel is very much a Bad Guy, but he seemed almost more Chaotic Neutral than pure evil the way Regina was, he had a more built in excuse for his evil (the Dark One mojo screwing with him), and a more sympathetic motive (finding his lost son) than Regina, whos excuse was "mom was mean" and her motive was "petty revenge against a little kid", and he was generally played more sympathetically. And while Rumple certainly benefited from "woobie villain fever", you could see how the writers fell HARD for Regina, and re-wrote the show to be about her and her redemption, despite how evil she was shown to be in season 1. Rumple ended up having way more back and fourth than Regina did. 

[superloislane]

11 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Ironically, looking at season 1 again, it almost seems like they're setting up Rumple for the big redemption, and not Regina.

I don't know if I was thinking about who would get redeemed or not but Rumple was definitely the more redeemable one in the first season. Even though he did it to help himself most of the time, he did help the heroes every now and then and he was even kind to Henry without expecting anything in return by giving Emma the walkie-talkies. He had the love story with Belle and he was kept apart from her by Regina as we found out, and he had the sympathetic motive of trying to find his son. He was totally set up as being redeemable but then they ruined it by having him be just the worst to the point where I could accept Regina's redemption (as much as I hate it) over Rumple's any day.

[Shanna Marie]

2 hours ago, XrystalPond said:

Hook had a motivation of avenging his brother's death. However, even that wasn't clearcut. So he became a pirate who sailed around and stole stuff? How did that avenge his brother's death? Did the king even know or realize that this ship was now a pirate ship?

That would be one of the time periods I'd love the show to have explored. How did he go from upright naval officer to pirate? Did he start out just fighting against his former king's navy, stealing from the naval ships he attacked, then had to start attacking other ships to get the funds to keep his own ship running, and from there slid into piracy? Was he ever satisfied with the amount of revenge he was able to get, or did he give up on that to show Milah the world, or did he give up when he became more obsessed with Rumple? It's really not clear at all, and they've never even hinted at it. We went from him throwing his uniform jacket overboard and declaring his one-ship war against the king to seeing him in the tavern, in full pirate mode, but defending Milah from a creep and walking away when he found out she was married.

2 hours ago, XrystalPond said:

His other motivation was to destroy the Dark One who killed Milah and took his hand. This should have been a more realistic goal. Yet after he tried to kill Rumple in New York or even shot Belle, did he not struggle with this?

They actually addressed this one pretty well in the show. Near the end of season 2, he had the conversation with Regina in which he talked about how he'd thought he'd succeeded in killing Rumple during the time Greg and Tamara had him prisoner, and even when he thought he'd succeeded, he realized it didn't help. He didn't feel any better. It didn't change anything. He'd ruined his life chasing after that revenge because the revenge quest led to him doing horrible things that made people not like him. At that point, while he still hated Rumple and didn't mind doing things to him, he stopped trying to get revenge because he knew the revenge wouldn't make him happy and it would make him lose the things that did make him happy. He and Rumple kept clashing, usually because Rumple never stopped scheming and Hook got caught up in it, and we saw with Dark Hook that he never stopped hating what Rumple did. He just stopped letting that hatred rule his life. I guess in a way he got the best revenge by living a happy life in front of Rumple, being Rumple's grandson's stepfather, and being Rumple's wife's best friend.

Really, that's what we were missing in the other villain redemptions. Regina never had a moment where she realized that she'd gone after the wrong person, that Snow hadn't really wronged her and was as much a victim of Cora as she was, and she'd wasted her life on revenge. She just changed with no admission of wrong and no reason given for her change. Rumple admitted where he was in the wrong all along, but he never really changed until he did change, and there was no reason why that time it was apparently different and stuck. Zelena just kept going back and forth, depending on how Regina was treating her and whether they had a common enemy, until apparently being against the Black Fairy was enough to make everything okay for her.

[Rumsy4]

5 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

They actually addressed this one pretty well in the show. Near the end of season 2, he had the conversation with Regina in which he talked about how he'd thought he'd succeeded in killing Rumple during the time Greg and Tamara had him prisoner, and even when he thought he'd succeeded, he realized it didn't help. He didn't feel any better. It didn't change anything. He'd ruined his life chasing after that revenge because the revenge quest led to him doing horrible things that made people not like him. ... He just stopped letting that hatred rule his life. I guess in a way he got the best revenge by living a happy life in front of Rumple, being Rumple's grandson's stepfather, and being Rumple's wife's best friend.

I agree. They addressed Hook turning away from his revenge quest on Rumple pretty well for this show. He ended Season 2 realizing that he didn't have to continue acting selfishly and only focussed on revenge which had left him feeling empty anyway. And then there was this follow up conversation with Regina on the Jolly Roger where they debate whether they will get their Happy Endings or if they've wasted their lives. 

8 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Regina never had a moment where she realized that she'd gone after the wrong person, that Snow hadn't really wronged her and was as much a victim of Cora as she was, and she'd wasted her life on revenge. She just changed with no admission of wrong and no reason given for her change.

The most Regina admitted was that she maybe wasn't the best step-mother, to which Mary Margaret immediately declared that Regina was the one who had taught her to have hope, and gave her all the credit. Worse than a doormat, really. 

Quote

Rumple admitted where he was in the wrong all along, but he never really changed until he did change, and there was no reason why that time it was apparently different and stuck. 

And it all happened off-screen at the end of the world living an idyllic life with his submissive wife and nobody around for him to hurt.

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, XrystalPond said:

Given the things that Rumple/Gold did to Hook during seasons 4 and 5, one would think that there would be a part of him that still wanted that revenge. If you're talking about hundreds of years of plotting/planning, it would be hard not to have that gut reaction of wanting to push him over the town line and then pretend like you had no idea how that happened. Not saying he didn't make the right decision. I just think it was a missed opportunity for more character depth. The 4B scenes of Hook talking Emma back from the darkness would have been more poignant if we fully saw it as a struggle.

I think the structure worked against it there. They had the truce to find Henry in 3A, and Rumple went off on his own, so we didn't get a lot of proximity between them. In 3B, Hook was off on his own in the past and Rumple was Zelena's prisoner in the present (though there was some snarling between them when Zelena was making Rumple kidnap Hook). Hook did get into trouble in 4A when he tried to blackmail Rumple -- he wasn't going after revenge, and he did have the good motive of trying to help Elsa, but he was also having fun getting power over Rumple, and that backfired horribly. But then the show didn't ever get into any fallout from that. That was part of the fail of the ending of that story arc. In 4B, Rumple was out of town (or they thought he was) for a big chunk of it, so he wasn't an immediate temptation, and once they learned he was back and what he was up to, Hook became intensely focused on helping hold Emma back from darkness. I think it would have worked better there if we'd seen the struggle at the end of 4A, so we knew what he was setting aside to focus on Emma. It did seem like focusing his efforts on helping Emma had a lot to do with him not spending any time thinking about his own situation.

But I also don't think that the switch flipping is necessarily out of character for Hook. It looks like he just dives into whatever he commits to, and once he's there, it's 100 percent, full speed ahead. So once he gave up on revenge, he was entirely done with that. He still didn't like Rumple and might have enjoyed messing with him, but he was fully committed to being a different, better man, and I think he was so disgusted with what he saw in himself when he considered his life of revenge that he really didn't want to go back there.

1 hour ago, XrystalPond said:

In 5A you had him screaming and yelling that he couldn't possibly fight the darkness, but we'd seen him for over a season being a good guy with no real struggles (other than a throwaway scene with Snow and David saying he might choose wrong). 

That bothered me, and I think having him cave so easily to the darkness was out of character from what we'd been shown. I remember posting after the episode in which he's initially revealed as the Dark One but before we saw Dark Hook in action something about how we didn't need to worry because "he's got this," since he had so much experience in fighting off darkness. We'd seen a whole arc of him giving specific advice for dealing with it. I felt like his abrupt flip there didn't fit with what we'd seen of him. It would have been more like him to fight a lot harder, to refuse to get mad at Emma for going against his wishes or for trying to control him with the sword. I can imagine screaming matches with Head Nimue while she tried to tempt him. Instead, we kind of have to handwave it with the fact that he was practically dead when he was turned, so he started out from a point of weakness. It wasn't the Darkness entering a healthy body, but the Darkness entering a dying body and being what kept it alive. Not that the show ever indicated that. They wanted a Dark Hook because "wouldn't that be cool?" and how the character actually would respond had nothing to do with it.

[Kktjones]

28 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

That bothered me, and I think having him cave so easily to the darkness was out of character from what we'd been shown. I remember posting after the episode in which he's initially revealed as the Dark One but before we saw Dark Hook in action something about how we didn't need to worry because "he's got this," since he had so much experience in fighting off darkness. We'd seen a whole arc of him giving specific advice for dealing with it. I felt like his abrupt flip there didn't fit with what we'd seen of him. It would have been more like him to fight a lot harder, to refuse to get mad at Emma for going against his wishes or for trying to control him with the sword. I can imagine screaming matches with Head Nimue while she tried to tempt him.

I remember at the time there was a fun debate raging on Tumblr & Twitter as to whether Hook would succumb to the evil, but then resist at the last minute or if it was all an elaborate plan to trick the Dark Ones so that he could destroy them for good. People were choosing "Team Plan" (as in he had a plan) or "Team Flip" (as in he changed his mind at the last minute). I knew it would be the latter, but I think the former would have been such a better story!

Edited February 22, 2018 by Kktjones

[Camera One]

4 hours ago, Kktjones said:

I remember at the time there was a fun debate raging on Tumblr & Twitter as to whether Hook would succumb to the evil, but then resist at the last minute or if it was all an elaborate plan to trick the Dark Ones so that he could destroy them for good. People were choosing "Team Plan" (as in he had a plan) or "Team Flip" (as in he changed his mind at the last minute). I knew it would be the latter, but I think the former would have been such a better story!

They always choose the path that makes the hero look either stupid or weak.  I remember discussing whether Henry was just pretending to become a Lost Boy in Neverland, but nope.  

Quote

Given the things that Rumple/Gold did to Hook during seasons 4 and 5, one would think that there would be a part of him that still wanted that revenge. If you're talking about hundreds of years of plotting/planning, it would be hard not to have that gut reaction of wanting to push him over the town line and then pretend like you had no idea how that happened. 

Although it would have been realistic to have Hook be tempted to kill Rumple again, I'm glad they didn't go there.  That type of repetition/retread was what ultimately destroyed Rumple.  At least they didn't have Rumple and Hook hug it out and reveal that Rumple was actually Hook's long-lost biological dad.  That's the type of thing that these Writers might have considered doing.

[Shanna Marie]

4 hours ago, Kktjones said:

I remember at the time there was a fun debate raging on Tumblr & Twitter as to whether Hook would succumb to the evil, but then resist at the last minute or if it was all an elaborate plan to trick the Dark Ones so that he could destroy them for good.

I think Hook caving so quickly could sort of have been explained in the first place because of his near-death weakness and the fact that the Darkness was keeping him alive. It made no sense for him to flip instantly in Storybrooke when he'd been functioning perfectly well and not giving in to any temptation all that time. The only thing that changed was him getting his memories back. It seems he should have been able to hold out longer, or else he should have had more of a struggle leading up to that, like he was battling darkness coming from despair about Emma. I think that's yet another case of these writers taking the least interesting option because Hook trying to hold on while battling the darkness seems like there would be a lot more drama to it than him just instantly going super-dark.

[andromeda331]

I wish we had found out if the king really was evil or not. Hook's horrified at the King's plan and decides to become a pirate then. But we don't know anything else about it. Who was the King fighting against? Snow's future kingdom? Aurora's? The Ogres? Who? How long has the Navy been fighting against this group? Is this a war that's been going on years and the King's looking for a way to bring it to end? Is he just a typical King trying to conqueror more land? Is he evil? If he's evil how is it no one on the ship seems to think he is or act like he is?  

[Rumsy4]

4 hours ago, XrystalPond said:

Did they look to see about their own parents?

The Underworld was a huge lost opportunity for everyone except for Regina.

Neal "moved on" even though he had a bunch of unfinished stuff alive. So, sucks for Henry. 

David's twin fell into the River of Lost Souls. His father apparently moved on despite the way he had died. Ruth moving on was understandable if we think she never cared about James, I guess.

Leopold and Eva were both murdered, and yet they moved on not knowing if Snow would be okay.

Hook never got to meet his dad, even if that  patricide flashback was shown only in the previous arc. But Brennan was probably happy to move on from all his responsibilities. Hook never got to meet Milah or even find out tha Rumple had basically murdered her twice. It was apparently more important for Arthur to get redemption. And I'm still mad the writers didn't even have Killian and Liam hug!

Cora and Henry Sr. got to heaven, and Regina got closure with them. That's all that mattered to the writers.

[Camera One]

Such true words about the Underworld.  Once again, the problem was a poorly defined premise.  What exactly did "unfinished business" mean, anyway?  Who knows.  Apparently, making peace with yourself is all it takes to go to the "better place".  If we got a Season 10, we would probably go to The Better Place and it's actually Storybrooke bathed in yellow light.

[Shanna Marie]

16 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I wish we had found out if the king really was evil or not. Hook's horrified at the King's plan and decides to become a pirate then. But we don't know anything else about it.

That's why that's one of the periods I wish we'd seen more of. Since they seemed to have carefully avoided telling us the name of the king or of the kingdom, I initially thought that was because they were saving that for a big revelation. I was even trying to remember names of male villains it would turn out to be. But I guess they never cared about going there and weren't setting anything up. They just didn't care about giving us details at the time because they weren't important.

10 hours ago, XrystalPond said:

I wouldn't have wanted constant rehash. But it would be better storytelling to show that he had the thoughts.

I think one of the issues with Hook's initial turnaround is that his epiphany happened offscreen while he was being held prisoner by Greg and Tamara (and while Colin was recovering from a broken leg), so we never saw him working through all the thoughts and feelings. We didn't get to see him wrestling with the dissatisfaction in spite of thinking he'd achieved his goal, didn't get to see him figuring out why, didn't get to see him having regrets about the way his life went. We just saw him when he'd already had his epiphany and had figured it all out. Knowing these writers, Colin breaking his leg didn't really change anything. I doubt they had any plans of showing him figuring it out, wrestling with his conscience, or anything like that.

[Camera One]

5 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Knowing these writers, Colin breaking his leg didn't really change anything. I doubt they had any plans of showing him figuring it out, wrestling with his conscience, or anything like that.

I agree it would have changed very little.  I know there was talk that Neal might have had more scenes with Hook if Colin hadn't gotten hurt.  If so, maybe one or two scenes at most.

6 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

That's why that's one of the periods I wish we'd seen more of. Since they seemed to have carefully avoided telling us the name of the king or of the kingdom, I initially thought that was because they were saving that for a big revelation. I was even trying to remember names of male villains it would turn out to be. But I guess they never cared about going there and weren't setting anything up. They just didn't care about giving us details at the time because they weren't important.

And look how much they've learned.  It has been four years.  This season, the "king" is even more nebulous and literally invisible.  Why would the king be helping Lady Tremaine?  Why would he help her kill Marcus?  Why would Tiana be a Princess, or become the Queen?  Not that I care, but are they going to explain that in Tiana's next centric?  I wouldn't hold my breath.

[Shanna Marie]

15 hours ago, Camera One said:

I agree it would have changed very little.  I know there was talk that Neal might have had more scenes with Hook if Colin hadn't gotten hurt.  If so, maybe one or two scenes at most.

I would love to know what the original plan was because what they did ended up working well for me. We didn't get to see Hook's epiphany or the process of his "come to Jesus" moment, but it's easy to imagine, given that he was essentially put in an extended Time Out while being held captive and then making the drive from New York to Maine in the back of a moving van. That gave him a lot of time to think about his choices and process his feelings. I can imagine him realizing that he wasn't any happier now that (he thought) Rumple was dead, thinking about how he had no hope for rescue since no one would care where he was and what happened to him or even notice he was gone, pondering what he had to live for, realizing that he had no friends and that he'd driven off anyone who could have been a friend with all the things he did in the name of revenge, maybe even mentally rewound his life and catalogued all the times he made the wrong choice.

If they hadn't rather abruptly lost Colin's availability, that might have lessened that sense of him having been in Time Out. If Emma and Neal had thrown him in the hold of the Jolly Roger and taken him back to Storybrooke with them, he wouldn't have had that time of thinking he'd succeeded because he'd have known Rumple was still alive and they were fighting to save him. If Tamara had brought him the way she did, but sooner, he'd have had less time thinking he'd succeeded, more time when he was supposedly working for Greg and Tamara. I guess they could have somewhat dramatized his realization of how he'd screwed up all the relationships he could have had if he was reunited with Bae/Neal, only to have Neal want nothing to do with him because he tried to kill his father (never mind that Hook was trying to kill Rumple because Rumple killed Neal's mother -- that never seemed to be a factor). But I kind of like that he figured it out and wrestled with it on his own.

21 hours ago, XrystalPond said:

And no offense to Hook, but I would have thought they probably would be better off leaving part of those people behind to watch the town.

Even Hook pointed that out, that he didn't ask any of them to come and wondered why they did. Really, that was all such a transparent way to get the entire regular cast into one location so they didn't have to write parallel Underworld and Storybrooke stories. If they'd written based on story and character logic, then Emma would have gone, of course. One of the Charmings might have gone to support Emma and because they did kind of owe Hook, as he got his moral wound while saving Snow, but the other would have stayed behind with their infant son. Emma might have made Rumple go because she needed him to open the portal and maybe to get them back home (and possibly because she didn't trust him enough to leave him behind in Storybrooke while she was gone). There wasn't really a reason for Regina to go. She's never cared about Hook. The show tried to tell us she and Emma were such great friends, but that was always one-sided, with Emma chasing after Regina and taking her abuse. Regina certainly owed her, but I never really believed that Regina would have gone on that trip without having some additional agenda, like checking in on her parents. There was absolutely no reason for Robin to go, given that he and Hook had barely interacted, and his stated reason of wanting to set an example for his children was stupid. I think his son would have preferred a living father to a father who was an unnecessary (and rather pointless) addition to a quest that had nothing to do with him. Henry, I could kind of believe up to that point in the show. From the very beginning, he'd wanted that nuclear family, white picket fence life as much as Emma did. In the season 4 finale, that adventure rescuing Emma seemed to have been a real bonding experience, reinforced early in season five when they were trying to break Zelena out to help get to Emma. They picked out the house together. So, I could see Henry wanting to go rescue Hook because of caring about him and because of realizing that if Emma lost Hook for good in that way, he could probably give up on that cozy nuclear family with a white picket fence because Emma wasn't going to let herself love again. However, once Henry insists on going to the Underworld to rescue Hook, and after he's picked out houses with him, they needed to show Henry's reaction to thinking Hook was lost forever, they needed to show Henry's reaction to Hook coming back from the dead, and they couldn't get away with doing the "no one wants you here, you dirty pirate, and you're not my real dad" routine later. At least Zelena and Belle ended up there some other way and not because they inexplicably suddenly wanted to help Hook (actually, Belle would have had more reason for that than Robin did, since Belle and Hook had been established as friends).

[Rumsy4]

19 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

There was absolutely no reason for Robin to go, given that he and Hook had barely interacted, and his stated reason of wanting to set an example for his children was stupid.

It was really stupid. It was an even worse level stupidity when he let Regina persuade him to allow Zelena and Hades to take his child to Storybrooke by themselves. 

The whole character had become such a boring and idiotic mess, that I don't wonder the writers decided to kill him off. They were too lazy to actually give Robin a backbone and a storyline beyond being yet another of Regina's cheerleaders/doormats. So it's really confusing why they gave in to Lana's request for a Love Interest, only to mess it up this badly. 

Edited February 24, 2018 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

While it was ridiculous and contrived, I didn't mind that more people went to Underbrooke.  Having to flash back between Underbrooke and Storybrooke would have made the half-season more disjointed.  Even though they were underused, some of the scenes with Snowing were basically the last time they got something decent to play.  

Robin Hood is the main character who shouldn't have gone, because he did nothing at all.  If there had been an episode featuring Marian, that would have justified it, but I'm finding it difficult to think of a scenario where that wouldn't have made Robin Hood look even worse.  It would have been serving villain redemption, but Zelena facing Marian (and maybe Neal) could have been a big moment, since she's now a mother and she murdered a mother, but then again, it might have put a damper on her bold and audacious sassy comments.  Seeing Regina's centrics shows us that it would be more likely for Marian to give Zelena her blessings to raise Roland.  

Edited February 24, 2018 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

9 minutes ago, Camera One said:

While it was ridiculous and contrived, I didn't mind that more people went to Underbrooke.  Having to flash back between Underbrooke and Storybrooke would have made the half-season more disjointed.  Even though they were underused, some of the scenes with Snowing were basically the last time they got something decent to play.  

The easy fix here is forcing them to go. That's what the Dark Ones were doing with the scarab marks. It was perfectly laid out, since they marked everyone who ended up going anyway. (Except Zelena and Belle, who we know came later.) That would have given the heroes a greater sense of urgency and a need to defeat Hades. What makes it even sadder is that half of them were being forced to stay anyway because of the gravestones. Why make them stranded by choice? Couldn't they have resolved their issues with some of the Underbrooke folk and get their help in escaping?

One thing I didn't like about 5B was the flippant use of guest characters. Some of them would only stay for five minutes when they could have been utilized more, like Milah. Then others came in, disappeared for several episodes, then came back later when the writers remembered their existence. (Pan, Cora, James)

Edited February 24, 2018 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

7 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

One thing I didn't like about 5B was the flippant use of guest characters. Some of them would only stay for five minutes when they could have been utilized more, like Milah. Then others came in, disappeared for several episodes, then came back later when the writers remembered their existence. (Pan, Cora, James)

We all wonder if Season 6 could have been a fun and significant cameo returns of past guest stars if ABC had cancelled the series, but the use of these "cameos" in 5B gave me pause that would ever happen under these Writers.  The 5B premiere made it seem like Pan was going to play an important role, but using him as a plot device for a few scenes was an insult to the character.  Cora got the most time in the limelight, so I would probably leave her out, even though she was MIA for much of it.  

Remember when Abigail returned for the 3B finale and had zero lines in the diner?  That's the type of "cameo" that we might see even if A&E brought back some past faces for the finale.

[KingOfHearts]

1 minute ago, Camera One said:

Remember when Abigail returned for the 3B finale and had zero lines in the diner?  That's the type of "cameo" that we might see even if A&E brought back some past faces for the finale.

You can't really blame it on the actors not being able to show up. I know plenty of other shows that bring back characters when it makes sense to. With those, you rarely get the feeling of, "Oh, I guess they couldn't get x to be in it" or "Oh, I guess they didn't have the budget". Obviously, with OUAT, Jefferson and Graham couldn't make any more appearances because of the actors' launched careers. However, in other times the producers secured actors that weren't even utilized.

For 5B, I would chuck the entire "Ruby Slippers" episode and the Emma flashbacks in "Firebird".

[Camera One]

Just now, KingOfHearts said:

The Emma flashbacks in "Firebird".

Cleo is a very important part of the Once universe.  If she had also appeared in the Underbrooke portions, it would have been waterworks for the viewers!

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

Robin Hood is the main character who shouldn't have gone, because he did nothing at all.  

He wasn't there for any of the scenes of Regina tearfully reconciling with her parents. Why even bring him to Underbrooke if he was to be a non-entity there? The writers' history of sidelining charatcers they mean to kill off or write off is just bizarre. Wouldn't you want the viewers to be more invested in a character's life so their death would mean more? 

[Camera One]

30 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

He wasn't there for any of the scenes of Regina tearfully reconciling with her parents. Why even bring him to Underbrooke if he was to be a non-entity there? The writers' history of sidelining charatcers they mean to kill off or write off is just bizarre. Wouldn't you want the viewers to be more invested in a character's life so their death would mean more? 

I think they included Robin Hood on the team to the Underworld before brainstorming the actual subplots.  They were obligated to devote an episode to Regina (The Big 100 is All About Her), and then Snow (need to get her out of the way early so we can send her offscreen sooner), and then Rumple and then Hook and then they got bored so they brought back and devoted an episode to Zelena and then an episode to Belle and then do we have time for Robin? oh wait, no, we need a Very Special Episode To Show We're So Progressive, and then an episode for almost forgotten Emma and then another episode for Regina and Zelena because you can never get enough of those two, oops we forgot Charming, let's squeeze in a little something for him here, and then an episode for Pissed Off Ignored Characters from 5A that We Totally Didn't Forget like Arthur and cue a cameo for Angry Merida (Lancelot and Guinivere who?), and FINALLY we have time to use Robin Hood just before we kill him, because we need 2 hours to keep half the cast in a cage in Land of Undefined Random Stories and half the cast chasing around a brat in NYC.

Edited February 24, 2018 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

I really don't get the way they handled Robin at all. We didn't really see him in action as Robin Hood in a flashback, and I don't think him breaking into Zelena's palace to steal the potion counts. Wasn't that the only flashback centered on him? Otherwise, he had a cameo or was a supporting character in other people's stories, like the Robin 1.0 story that was about how Belle realized Rumple had a good heart because he stopped torturing a man, the Mulan story that ended with her joining the Merry Men, or the Wonderland story about how Will and Ana went to Wonderland. He never got to actually react to learning about his wife's fate at the hands of his girlfriend. Then it was like a yo-yo -- he's gone! Now he's back! (and his return undermined the possible Regina character growth because she had him back before she realized she didn't need the Author to write her a happy ending). Now he's a regular! Time for him to totally disappear and be utterly irrelevant to the story for an entire season before he's killed. And then he's back, but a different version! Really, he only existed to get fridged so Regina could emote about how bad things always happen to her. Even when his wife was truly fridged, it wasn't about his angst about his wife's fate. It was about Regina's angst about how his love for her meant he couldn't save Marian with a TLK. Why did they bring him back and hire him as a regular if they weren't going to use him and were planning to kill him off? It doesn't seem like they had a plan for him at all, any reason for his character to be there other than that maybe they liked the actor and/or were overreacting to criticism about him being written out, and then they realized they had nothing for him to do, so they killed him, but then they felt bad about the way things ended and how upset he was that they brought him on only to kill him, so they brought him back again.

As for the great expedition to the Underworld, there were so many ways they could have handled it. They could have used the Dark One marks, having there be a loophole that meant when Rumple took the Darkness to the Underworld, they were brought with it whether they wanted to go or not. They could have given Regina an agenda (reconnect with her parents? Atone to her victims? Ha ha, just kidding. Like that would happen) so that she went along for some reason other than giving a damn about Hook or Emma. Emma, Rumple, Regina, Henry, and David could have gone, and then Snow, Robin, Belle and Zelena could all have been brought the way Belle and Zelena were, with Belle, Snow, and Robin being there to check on the baby when Zelena showed up and they all got caught in Hades' spell.

Though I wouldn't have minded splitting the show with Storybrooke and Underbrooke. That was how 2A worked, and that was one of my favorite arcs. Have Regina, Snow, and Robin in Storybrooke, resolving the Camelot story and actually showing the relationship between Regina and Robin so that there's a point at all to his presence, and then have the Underbrooke gang, with the flashbacks focusing on that story. That eliminates all the Regina flashbacks (yeah, I know, but this is my dream season), which gives them time to do more to set up Hades and Zeus, to delve into David vs. James, and to deal with Hook. If we really needed that memory potion reconciliation between Zelena and Regina, then have Regina and Robin end up going to the Underworld later on the trail of his missing daughter, and then the show could focus entirely on Underbrooke while Snow stays behind in Storybrooke to take care of her baby/run the town/do movie publicity/go on maternity leave.

[Camera One]

The whole mindset of the Writers creating Underbrooke was to give Regina a chance to reconcile with Henry Sr. and Cora, so naturally, that was the focus.  What everyone else was doing was besides the point.  I think A&E would have difficulties coming up with relevant stuff for Regina and Robin to do in Storybrooke, and personally, I would have no interest in seeing that.  They had become bored of the Camelot story by midway through 5A so it was unlikely they would go back to it.  And to have to back and forth set-dress the location for Current Storybrooke and Underbrooke would have been an extra cost.  Wherever Regina was would have gotten plenty of screentime, so if she wasn't in Underbrooke, that would have meant even less than for those storylines.  Although the underuse of Robin Hood was completely inexplicable and horrible writing, the character was so poorly defined that I wouldn't have wanted to watch more of him anyhow because there was no potential there.  The ship had sailed.  It was hard to see him as a real person after his unreal decisions and actions in 4A.

Edited February 25, 2018 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

27 minutes ago, Camera One said:

It was hard to see him as a real person after his unreal decisions and actions in 4A.

Season 4 is when more and more of the characters started turning two-dimensional, and the writers honed in on the heroes vs villains crap. 

[Camera One]

It's interesting to figure out when each character was fully destroyed and in what order...

Henry - started and completed 2B
Snow - started 2B, completed 4A
Robin - straight out of the gate 3B
Rumple - 4A
Belle - started 2B, completed 4A
Regina - started 2B, completed 4A
Charming - 4B
Emma - started 4A, completed 6A
Hook - started 6B... don't think destruction was ever complete

Edited February 25, 2018 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

The sad thing about Robin is how inconsequential he always was. Nothing much would change about the story if Marian had been real and they'd just stayed in New York. The only things he did that had any lasting consequences were getting the potion to cure Rumple, and just about anyone could have done that, and it seems that him fathering baby Robin may end up being important for season 7. Even there, it doesn't seem to matter that he was Robin Hood. Anyone could have impregnated Zelena and had the same result. Otherwise, Regina's epiphany would have actually worked better if he hadn't been there, he didn't do anything that mattered in the AU, him nearly being killed and healed by Dark Emma ended up not mattering. Remove him from late season 4 on, and nothing much changes that matters. There's no point to him.

Zelena feels like she's been shoehorned into the show because they like her rather than because they really needed her, but she has had an impact on the story. She betrayed them to Arthur to enslave Merlin, and that was something that came out of her character. She was the one who figured out and clued in Hook about being a Dark One, and again, that was something from her character rather than something that anyone could have done. Then she played a role in dealing with the Black Fairy that was specific to her character. They've actually used her.

[Camera One]

Maybe it's just easier because Zelena is a sassy villain while Robin Hood was a boring "hero".  I'd much rather they just did a one-and-done about how Robin Hood taught Snow White how to shoot arrows.

[CCTC]

34 minutes ago, Camera One said:

n while Robin Hood was a boring "hero"

And Robin Hood should not have been a Dudley Doright Hero in the first place.  He should have been more of a rouge with a sense of humor, a bit reckless, and with a good heart underneath it all.  He was Robin Hood not Prince Charming (and that is not meant to be a slam on Dallas).  He should have been someone to challenge Regina and verbally spar with her - not be some white knight (and Regina could have kept a bit of an edge and not become some tragic romantic heroine).  

As much as I did not feel he needed to come back or that couple revisited, I actually thought that Dream Robin was written more as Robin Hood should have been written in the first place.

I liked Zelina and the actress, but I agree, they really did not have a place for her in Story Brooke except for when Regina' needed some angst.  I would have preferred to see her as an occasional guest star blowing in from Oz and shaking things up with a bit of villainy.    

Edited February 25, 2018 by CCTC

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

It's interesting to figure out when each character was fully destroyed and in what order...

Henry - started and completed 2B
Snow - started 2B, completed 4A
Robin - straight out of the gate 3B
Rumple - 4A
Belle - started 2B, completed 4A
Regina - started 2B, completed 4A
Charming - 4B
Emma - started 4A, completed 6A
Hook - started 6B... don't think destruction was ever complete

 

I agree with almost everything. I think there was still hope for Belle in 4A, especially when she finally figured out Rumple's deception and kicked him out of town. It was 4B that finally destroyed her. 

6 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

I think as a viewer, we get more invested in characters than writers, who tend to see them as their pawns so to speak. That causes a disconnect because the characters have become more "real" for us than for their creators. And for some reason, writers start to focus on plot more than character over time, and more often than not, it causes inconsistent characterization. 

Quoting myself because I'm awesome like Regina. That's half the problem with OUAT. Although with OUAT, it's a bit more complicated than that. The writers fell in love with Regina and Rumple, and ended up using all the other charatcers as plot devices in order to make those two more sympathetic. A&E don't seem to realize that they have ended up destroying their own legacy over the course of the series because of this. Giving Snow White a sword wasn't enough. They ought to have let her wield it. 

Edited February 25, 2018 by Rumsy4

[Shanna Marie]

9 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

I think there was still hope for Belle in 4A, especially when she finally figured out Rumple's deception and kicked him out of town. It was 4B that finally destroyed her. 

Yeah, she was ruined when she caught him red-handed, kicked him out of town, learned even more about what he was up to, then he came back to town and betrayed her by posing as Hook to trick her into giving him the dagger, and she even commented about what a betrayal that was, and she saw that his heart was literally turning black because of all the evil he'd done, and he was willing to destroy Emma and everyone else in order to save himself, plus he put Belle into a submissive wife role in the AU -- and she still declared that she didn't really love Will and she went back to Rumple. After all those lies, betrayals, and deceptions, taking him back was ridiculous, and then it got worse in season six, when she got back with him after learning he chose to be the Dark One again from hijacking Hook's sacrifice, after learning he sold his second-born child, and after he trapped her on the Jolly Roger. But hey, it turned out that he wasn't the one who sped up her pregnancy, so everything was okay!

[Camera One]

Ah yes, I agree 4B was the straw that broke the camel's back for Belle.  I think I initially chose 4A because I just no longer enjoyed seeing her scenes at all because she was being fooled by Rumple.  I also found "Family Business" to be pretty atrocious.  That whole bit about Belle lying that she didn't know Anna.  They were clearly trying to knock her down a couple of pegs.  She chose a rock over a person.  Good grief!

[KingOfHearts]

1 minute ago, Camera One said:

That whole bit about Belle lying that she didn't know Anna.  They were clearly trying to knock her down a couple of pegs.  She chose a rock over a person.  Good grief!

But Mirror!Belle is by far the most underrated character of the series!

[Camera One]

From the Other Fairy Tales Thread:

2 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

At least these shows took some risks, even if they didn't always pay off. A&E were bent on maintaining the status quo and replaying the same old character beats season after season.

It's interesting that A&E wrote for "Lost" and tried to replicate it in many ways except in the ways that counted.  Like the taking risks part.  Love it or hate it, "Lost" did take risks in changing up the formula every season or so.  A&E claims that is the case for "Once", even saying in interviews that the show is always re-inventing itself, but that was only the case in very superficial ways.  They never let go of Rumple being the Dark One; they did that seeming reset in 3A only to return everything to the way it was by the end of the 3B premiere; they resurrected The Evil Queen again for the final season; The Rumbelle break-up cycle, etc.  Is it any wonder that they ran out of ideas, when they kept re-writing the same thing over and over again in slightly different ways (eg. The Dark Curse number infinity; Hook's past comes back to haunt him number infinity +1; The Evil Queen tries to kill Snow flashback number infinity +2).  

Edited February 25, 2018 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

A&E thought they'd struck gold with the formula they had. So they kept repeating it, not realizing they were turning everything stale. 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

I agree with almost everything. I think there was still hope for Belle in 4A, especially when she finally figured out Rumple's deception and kicked him out of town. It was 4B that finally destroyed her. 

I clearly must have not thought Belle was beyond hope at that point.   I I really did believe in the Hades arc that the fact that Rumple being straight with her about having zero desire to become a good man and wanting power instead would be the thing that would force her to stop deluding herself, make better choices, and permanently put her off Rumple.

[Rumsy4]

6 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

I clearly must have not thought Belle was beyond hope at that point.   I I really did believe in the Hades arc that the fact that Rumple being straight with her about having zero desire to become a good man and wanting power instead would be the thing that would force her to stop deluding herself, make better choices, and permanently put her off Rumple.

We were all Belle when it came to Rumbelle. We always kept hoping in spite of all the evidence that Belle would one day wake up and smell the roses and leave Rumple for good. I think I only gave Belle up completely by the end of 6A. I don't even like her now. Rumple was her project, and she actively chose her life and death with Rumple, even over spending her life at a normal pace with her son.

Which reminds me--does reformed Rumple care about Gidiot now?

Edited February 25, 2018 by Rumsy4