PODCAST S01.E08 Go Pirates!: You Do Have Friends, Veronica

[Primetimer]

The Marses make new friends (and keep the old) while all sorts of unwelcome information makes itself felt in 'Like A Virgin.'

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[Primetimer]

The Marses are making friends all over; we made friends with the most important visuals from 'Like A Virgin.'

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[enlightenedbum]

For the record, Daran Norris is primarily a voice actor. The show eventually (I think in season 3?) acknowledges this fact by setting up a fake casting call for such a thing.

You almost only ever actually see him on Rob Thomas properties (Cliff and Johnny Frost)

[JennB]

For the record, Daran Norris is primarily a voice actor. The show eventually (I think in season 3?) acknowledges this fact by setting up a fake casting call for such a thing.

You almost only ever actually see him on Rob Thomas properties (Cliff and Johnny Frost)

I recently started watching "iZombie" and I got so excited when he turned up.

[topanga]

7 hours ago, enlightenedbum said:

For the record, Daran Norris is primarily a voice actor. The show eventually (I think in season 3?) acknowledges this fact by setting up a fake casting call for such a thing.

You almost only ever actually see him on Rob Thomas properties (Cliff and Johnny Frost)

He was Cosmo on 'The Fairly Odd Parents!"

 

Great podcast episode. But as usual, it felt too damn short. I wish the podcast were two hours long. Eh, maybe that's just me jonesin' for my VM community.

 

But there are some topics I wish were explored further, like Veronica's growing friendship with Wallace. I know that relationship hasn't featured prominently in past episodes, but in 'Like A Virgin,' we saw Veronica lose her tough girl persona and joke around with Wallace as they sat in his living room. (Although it seems she had no idea what 'one point away from being cool' meant--she flashed Wallace and said that was worth at least two points).  And then he felt comfortable enough to crash at her place rather than...do we know where Adele Fennel and the little brother spent the night? Oh, and I thought it was important that Veronica cares whether Wallace might wonder, even for a second, if she really is promiscuous. Or any of the other negative things people at Neptune High say about her. Don't look now, but Veronica is allowing herself to become...duh-duh-duh vulnerable with Wallace.

 

My favorite line of the show episode? "All fours," huh, Dick? You mess with the bull..."

[paulvdb]

14 hours ago, enlightenedbum said:

You almost only ever actually see him on Rob Thomas properties (Cliff and Johnny Frost)

Or on Nickelodeon. He was Gordy on Ned's Declassified School Survival Guide which aired at the same time as Veronica Mars. According to his IMDB profile he was also on Big Time Rush. He has been on more episodes of Nickelodeon shows than Rob Thomas properties.

[scarynikki12]

The thing I always take away from this episode is that the actors who play Pam and Sean (An Echolls Family Christmas) look like they could be twins.  And yet they aren't related!  At least according to IMDB.  It's freaky.

[Affogato]

How evil is Abel Koontz? He isn't just

Spoiler

taking the money to give to his daughter because he has cancer

He's relishing tearing apart Veronica's life. Really digging in the knife about Lilly's death and about Jake and Liane. Why is that, exactly? He's never met Veronica before? Was he spurned by Liane in high school? What?

We see Keith doing this crazy thing, potentially dangerous (idiot could have had a gun) for Veronica's friend and for justice and because the Sheriff wouldn't do anything and it is a clear cut 'ends justify the means' act. He is so exactly like Veronica and it is a damn shame they don't bond over this. If there is a miniseries they damn well better.

Veronica's relationship with Wallace is priceless. When he goes into the house to turn off the gas that is kind of a heroic thing to do and may show why he gets her. I love their developing relationship and how both of them have to work for it. And it contrasts with the relationships that we see inside the '09er group.

This is the episode where I really think you would start to see a difference if the actor who played Troy had played the character Duncan Kane. A little sexual spark and a little sharpness in their interaction would have made you want the relationship between the two of them to work. Or me, anyway, and the thought that they might be secret siblings would have more angst. I mean for me, clearly Veronica, angst, but doesn't really make it over the fourth wall.

[Affogato]

Let's see.....

The scene in the locker room shows that everyone in that locker room with the exception of Meg is against her so I guess she is in the '09er gym class because Mac doesn't seem to actively hate her and there are probably others. Wanda didn't seem like she'd be delighted to dump V's clothes in the toilet, either, until that voting incident, anyway. Meg is right. Are we seeing this incident this way because it illustrates Veronica's point of view, that everyone in the school is against her? Kind of an establishing POV scene, and signs that Meg and Wallace are chipping away.

Why do tv private investigators never seem to do their own computer/tech stuff? You would think that in the oughts anyone interested in investigation would get better at that and she should be taking instruction from Mac (and maybe she is) and infiltrating social media. We see she has some ability when she goes to talk to Froggy and the photoshopping but we don't see it again. I always though they should have touched in on these things more in later seasons instead of making her a victim so Logan would have something to do.

would a frenchman really use 'Froggy' as his user name?

Crazy Keith is awesome. Wallace is awesome because Norman.

[Melgaypet]

2 hours ago, Affogato said:

Why do tv private investigators never seem to do their own computer/tech stuff?

Because it's boring to watch? I'm not saying it's impossible to dramatize that sort of thing, but I think it would be pretty difficult, especially in every episode. It's a lot more fun to see Veronica don costumes and accents to pull cons and the like instead of sitting at a computer 90% percent of the time like a real PI probably does. Plus, having a tech guy (or girl) is a good way to give a PI a sidekick/ally who can be useful to the plot with a minimum of gymnastics.

[Affogato]

8 minutes ago, Melgaypet said:

Because it's boring to watch? I'm not saying it's impossible to dramatize that sort of thing, but I think it would be pretty difficult, especially in every episode. It's a lot more fun to see Veronica don costumes and accents to pull cons and the like instead of sitting at a computer 90% percent of the time like a real PI probably does. Plus, having a tech guy (or girl) is a good way to give a PI a sidekick/ally who can be useful to the plot with a minimum of gymnastics.

Well, yes, but you don't have to watch it, you just have to mention it gets done. Then the PI could have a sidekick that would actually be useful!

One of the things about the Veronica Mars PI business is that it demanded that the PI go into questionable situations alone. Keith also treaded legally and physically treacherous waters, after her mother left he probably put her at risk to be an orphan every time he ran out of town after a bail jumper.  It wasn't reckless on Veronica's part, how could she escape it? Really  her alternative is that a few random guys she happens to know drop whatever they are doing (in Logan's case not much during the time of the show, but that isn't the point) and go into a situation, but they aren't professionals and that isn't safe either and kind of irresponsible.

Troy and Veronica, Teenage PIs!

[Melgaypet]

3 minutes ago, Affogato said:

One of the things about the Veronica Mars PI business is that it demanded that the PI go into questionable situations alone. Keith also treaded legally and physically treacherous waters, after her mother left he probably put her at risk to be an orphan every time he ran out of town after a bail jumper.  It wasn't reckless on Veronica's part, how could she escape it? Really  her alternative is that a few random guys she happens to know drop whatever they are doing (in Logan's case not much during the time of the show, but that isn't the point) and go into a situation, but they aren't professionals and that isn't safe either and kind of irresponsible.

I'm not sure I understand what argument you're trying to make. That Keith's job is dangerous? Yes. That would be still true if he were still the sheriff and had backup (er, human backup). That Keith, as a single parent, is wrong to have a dangerous job? I disagree. Unless all single parent cops and firefighters and crab fishermen are wrong as well.

Is Veronica reckless and irresponsible to put herself and her teenage allies in danger? Yeah. None of them are professionals, not even Veronica (yet). But that's the show. No one wants to watch Veronica Mars: The Girl Who Does All Her Stuff On the Computer and Always Plays It Safe.

[Affogato]

10 minutes ago, Melgaypet said:

I'm not sure I understand what argument you're trying to make. That Keith's job is dangerous? Yes. That would be still true if he were still the sheriff and had backup (er, human backup). That Keith, as a single parent, is wrong to have a dangerous job? I disagree. Unless all single parent cops and firefighters and crab fishermen are wrong as well.

Is Veronica reckless and irresponsible to put herself and her teenage allies in danger? Yeah. None of them are professionals, not even Veronica (yet). But that's the show. No one wants to watch Veronica Mars: The Girl Who Does All Her Stuff On the Computer and Always Plays It Safe.

Being a law enforcement professional is certainly dangerous but doing a lot of the routine things shouldn't be.

Spoiler

when Lamb dies later it happens because he goes to the situation alone, the irony is--if I'm remembering it--that Keith offers to accompany him. However, he could have asked some employee to come with him.

No, I don't think it is wrong for parents to have dangerous jobs, even if they are single parents.

I'm saying that the Veronica Mars universe job of PI is essentially ridiculous on the face of it, and yes there were probably ways that Keith if he had truly been a responsible parent could have handled it better, particularly since it had to be obvious to him, as Cliff indicates, that his teenage daughter was taking up the slack doing active cases at the office. He could have applied for another job, for example.  I think that Keith, as we see in this episode, had a lot of hostility and tension to work out and wanted to go out and manhandle bail jumpers. It is reckless when he has a teenage daughter who's mother has just left and it is different than working as a cop or being in the military. During the first season he does treat her like a forty year old roommate and acts like a single adult unless she gets in his face about it, and teens don't do that very often. Now this doesn't make him a horrible person, it just is.

Spoiler

In the second season he tries to pull back and make her really be a teenager, work in a coffee shop, but it is too late and she hides stuff from him. Like...um...no teenager ever? Hah. So, if he could teach her anything to keep her safe, he is in denial. I think this is pretty obviously a comment by Thomas on a lot of parenting in general.

Reckless is a funny word. I think there are a lot of points when Veronica takes risks that she has the right to take for herself and she is (I could be confused) fully 18 in the second season. Logan thinks her most important concern should be how he feels about it and her dad thinks that he needs to protect her from the consequences of her actions but that doesn't mean she doesn't have the right to put herself in dangerous situations. Those other things are their problems.  She isn't recking the cost to them, but lord, how could she learn to be a grownup if she worried about that all the time? Again, a comment on growing up and parenting.

[Melgaypet]

10 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Being a law enforcement professional is certainly dangerous but doing a lot of the routine things shouldn't be.

Yeah, but the routine things make boring TV. ;)

11 minutes ago, Affogato said:

I'm saying that the Veronica Mars universe job of PI is essentially ridiculous on the face of it, and yes there were probably ways that Keith if he had truly been a responsible parent could have handled it better, particularly since it had to be obvious to him, as Cliff indicates, that his teenage daughter was taking up the slack doing active cases at the office. He could have applied for another job, for example.  I think that Keith, as we see in this episode, had a lot of hostility and tension to work out and wanted to go out and manhandle bail jumpers. It is reckless when he has a teenage daughter who's mother has just left and it is different than working as a cop or being in the military. During the first season he does treat her like a forty year old roommate and acts like a single adult unless she gets in his face about it, and teens don't do that very often. Now this doesn't make him a horrible person, it just is.

Okay, now I have a better idea where you're coming from, thank you for explaining. I don't think I take quite as dim a view of Keith's choice of post-sheriff career as you do, but I essentially agree that he turns a blind eye to Veronica's activities. He does get mad every time he finds out she's put herself in danger, but, yeah, come on, Keith. He has to know that she's doing stuff outside the purview of the Mars Investigations receptionist, which is her actual job. Which would be taking care of the boring, safe routine things!

I do think of Veronica as reckless. It's just one of her character traits, which apparently she got from her dad. Sometimes it works out for her and sometimes it bites her in the ass. I do agree that, by and large, she has the right to be reckless.

[Affogato]

48 minutes ago, Melgaypet said:

Yeah, but the routine things make boring TV. ;)

Okay, now I have a better idea where you're coming from, thank you for explaining. I don't think I take quite as dim a view of Keith's choice of post-sheriff career as you do, but I essentially agree that he turns a blind eye to Veronica's activities. He does get mad every time he finds out she's put herself in danger, but, yeah, come on, Keith. He has to know that she's doing stuff outside the purview of the Mars Investigations receptionist, which is her actual job. Which would be taking care of the boring, safe routine things!

I do think of Veronica as reckless. It's just one of her character traits, which apparently she got from her dad. Sometimes it works out for her and sometimes it bites her in the ass. I do agree that, by and large, she has the right to be reckless.

Yes, running into danger is a masculine characteristic, in television tropes 'delicate women' must consider the consequences of their actions carefully and be cautious. "If you need to be defended, I will do it." says the manly man to the womanly woman!  She acts like we expect a man to act. Keith acts the same!

I'm not really arguing with you.I really assume that Keith becomes a PI because he has unfinished business in Neptune, Lilly's death, and feels a responsibility to the people in Neptune, and the job seems a natural off shoot of being a cop and he may hope to become Sheriff again. Once in he needs to jump bail jumpers in order to make enough money to pay for the office and ensure that Veronica has money for college (and her throwing good money after Liane (bad) must really be a blow). I just think that if, you know hypothetically Veronica was raped when he was off after a bail jumper and blown off by the sheriff and then had to deal with it herself instead of telling him because she didn't want to hurt him, well, he might have to do some serious self examination. Not unlike what V does at the end of season 3 when Keith does that thing he does for her. This show is a lot like life that way.

I assume Veronica has decided to be a hero and now has a lot to learn about that, as is to be expected.

[Sarah D. Bunting]

@scary AHHHHH you're so right!

[Cekrypton1]

Never watched the show, only listening to the podcast, but in the clip you used, Cliff sounds like Chris Parnell (which I said outloud, startling passers-by as I was on a bike ride.)

[sacrebleu]

Can I just say-- in revisiting this episode-- one thing I'm struck by is how ineffectual the school administration is about everything going on. Lockers were vandalized with people's purity scores// random people are in the auditions for Cabaret to slut shame Meg mid-performance (I mean, we held 'open auditions' for H.S. drama-- but that typically meant people auditioning could watch-- not any old high schooler).

It's no wonder Skinner always looks so grim.

[Affogato]

6 hours ago, sacrebleu said:

Can I just say-- in revisiting this episode-- one thing I'm struck by is how ineffectual the school administration is about everything going on. Lockers were vandalized with people's purity scores// random people are in the auditions for Cabaret to slut shame Meg mid-performance (I mean, we held 'open auditions' for H.S. drama-- but that typically meant people auditioning could watch-- not any old high schooler).

It's no wonder Skinner always looks so grim.

Moorehead; Van Clemmons.  Skinner is the Simpsons :-) Snyder was eaten by students. It's a grim job. Still, the sheriff's department was alive with incompetence and the county manager was a pedophile with venereal disease and the priest in the local catholic church was a Fitzpatrick

Honestly I remember in high school where certain students were harassed while others did the same thing and it was pretty obviously because the principal didn't want to confront the parents. We eventually got him fired, um, thus proving his point.  I suppose he forgot we could talk or thought we didn't mind injustice as long as we benefited. I didn't grow up in Neptune.  I think the thing with the gay boots indicated that Van Clemmons felt some pressure from the board? to keep the rich parents happy and the goodies coming in and really had to choose his battles.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Affogato
made a mistake

[topanga]

10 hours ago, sacrebleu said:

It's no wonder Skinner always looks so grim.

 

4 hours ago, Affogato said:

Van Clemmons.  Skinner is the Simpsons :-)

I see the similarities, though. Both somewhat incompetent. 

In the movie, Clemons mentioned that Neptune High was boring without Veronica. I wonder if he also missed the justice she helped meter out. Especially with the 09ers, a group he didn't--or couldn't--always discipline or take to task for their wrongdoings. 

[topanga]

13 hours ago, Cekrypton1 said:

Never watched the show, only listening to the podcast, but in the clip you used, Cliff sounds like Chris Parnell (which I said outloud, startling passers-by as I was on a bike ride.)

The good old podcast chuckle (or outburst!). Yeah, I've scared quite a few coworkers with my exclamations. 

When do we meet Vinnie? He's the creepier, slimier version of a Cliff/Keith love child.

[sacrebleu]

Quote

Van Clemmons.  Skinner is the Simpsons :-)

HA! I can't believe I missed that.

[MostlyC]

I loved the comment of "If you told me birds braided your hair this morning I would believe you."  Okay it's not an exact quote but you know what I'm talking about. I like Meg a lot (for now).  Her sister was great. The whole not liking your sister but loving her too is very, very teenage sibling behavior.

Re: Meg.  Will you be recapping season 2?  If so, I will have many questions.

According to MIT, they invented the first purity test. My sister had a lot of friends at MIT and they had a hard copy the purity test.  I got a copy.  My friends and I sat around drinking (as rebellious teen-agers were wont to do) and asking each other the questions like it was an group exam.  We all (secretly) lied our asses off to appear more experienced and adventurous. Because we were cool like that.

 I like Mac too, but I found her a little holier than thou in this episode- she was letting people buy other people's purity tests, which is mean.

I guess Kimmie is now hanging out with Paris Hilton in a corner of the yard where we...(say it with me), Never See Her Again.

I missed the lack of Logan.  I feel like he would have had a field day with all the mayhem. I wondered if he called in sick for the episode to heal from what I am imagining is a pretty ugly beating. We don't hear it, but I suspect that Aaron (being short 250K) would use the buckle for this one.

[MostlyC]

Now I'm going to have to examine every blazer I see on the show now.  Ack.

[Sarah D. Bunting]

We're doing the whole series!

[paulvdb]

On 1-8-2017 at 5:52 AM, topanga said:

When do we meet Vinnie? He's the creepier, slimier version of a Cliff/Keith love child.

Episode 17 Kanes and Abel's

[jeansheridan]

The show struggled with budget and Logan wasn't a full series regular, yet. I know he is in the credits but they used him sparingly and then, well, the fans loved him. 

I like when shows can adjust to such things and don't follow a rigid path.

Mac was a great addition.  I forgot she arrived in Season 1. It added to their universe to have a group of cranky teens rather than Veronica being the only one.

I do wish Wallace had been used more effectively in retrospect. Why did Dick get all the good throwaway lines? Can't a nice guy be funny?

Edited August 21, 2017 by jeansheridan

[jeansheridan]

On Sunday, August 06, 2017 at 6:00 AM, Sarah D. Bunting said:

We're doing the whole series!

Are you sure you want the pain of season 3? Ug. It makes me shudder. If he had done the time jump then. Imagine Season 3 with Veronica in the FBI.  Bell would have killed it.

[halgia]

I moved a bunch of Season 3 talk into a new thread under the S03 subforum:

[LeGrandElephant]

On 8/5/2017 at 2:39 PM, MostlyC said:

I missed the lack of Logan.  I feel like he would have had a field day with all the mayhem. I wondered if he called in sick for the episode to heal from what I am imagining is a pretty ugly beating. We don't hear it, but I suspect that Aaron (being short 250K) would use the buckle for this one.

Wow, what a missed opportunity. Even a throwaway comment that he was home sick would have been good (wait, does this episode come directly after the one that ends with him being beaten with the belt?)