S07.E02: Stormborn

[Athena]

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Episode Synopsis:

Daenerys receives an unexpected visitor. Jon faces a revolt. Tyrion plans the conquest of Westeros.

Edited July 24, 2017 by Athena

[gingerella]

Hot Pie! 

Nymeria! (Not)

Im not sure what to think right now...in no particular order:

 

1. Dany is bugging the living shit out of me with her bend the knee and burn you alive bullshit. She seems to be forgetting that she was going to break the wheel, which to me means NOT be another Ruler of Westeros, so I am perplexed by her attitude. I did, however, enjoy her interaction with Varys and the Q&A about her brother, who he serves, etc. As always, Varys said exactly what needed to be said, and not a word more. Bravo!

 

2. Jon...I get why he is going to Dany, and it makes sense given what he saw at Hardhome, but it seemed imprudent to choke LF as he is leaving Winterfell. Does he not know how dangerous LF is? Come on Jon! LF Finally admits he is IN LOVE with Sansa, though not sure it's an admission because if he loved her so much eh would never have left her with the Boltons. Is he simply as transparent as just wanting to be King of something, or is there more to his game? I still don't know.

 

3.  I jumped out of my seat and yelled NYMERIA!!!!!! during that scene, but didn't Arya say as the direwolves went away, "it's not her..."??? Did I hear that correctly? I still hold it hope...

 

4. Sam trying to cure Jorah was awesome but I had to mute that shit. And the cut to the guys digging into a hot pie was one of the best and most disgusting cuts ever, tip o the hat to the editors on that one. Oh, and nice tie ni to Sam to see his asshole father and brother at court in KL. Dad has himself boxed into quiet a hole there. HE strikes me as someone who will die by his word, so perhaps there is hope yet that Sam will get Dad to fight on the right side of history....

 

5. I had to mute that ship battle scene because I am a lightweight with those scenes...what I got was, all the Sand snakes are dead, including Mama, and Urine killed Yara after Theron jumped overboard, is that correct Spitballers? What was Urine saying to Theon before he jumped?  Also, what the fuck is Theon going to do now? Float along with dead bodies until our him alive? Jesus, that dude has the worst luck, as bad as Sansa's luck. Maybe this is all karma for him allowing Bolton to do such horrible things to Sansa...

 

I got nothing else right now, my brain is full...

 

PS: Pallas, where are you?!?

[janjan]

Either that wasn't Nimyria or I'm quite put out with her. We've waited seven seasons for you, Dawg, and you just turn tail? Hrumphf! At least she didn't eat Arya.

If Qyburn's mighty crossbow kills Drogon I'm gonna be even more put out. That dragon has personality.

The list of allies is shrinking fast -- scratch Dorne and the Greyjoys in one swell foop. Dany better welcome Jon and not be so snittty.

Can't wait for the reunion of Ser Davos and the Red Woman. See sparks fly.

Tyrion's battle plan didn't include the Dothraki. They might have a role to play, as soon as they get over being seasick.

Was Mrs. Peel saying don't listen to Tyrion? She said don't take men's advice, and Tyrion was the only male giving advice (as befits the Hand of the Queen). It's true that Olenna has outlasted lots of men, including all the men in her family, but she hasn't exactly won. As she said of Cersei, "She killed my future."

What will LF's next move be, now that he knows how to push Jon's buttons?

[janjan]

Quote

Ginger: what the fuck is Theon going to do now? Float along with dead bodies

Maybe Gendry will come along and rescue him.

[Anothermi]

1 hour ago, janjan said:

Maybe Gendry will come along and rescue him.

Hee! That was my thought. As far as we know, Gendry has been rowing the seas all this time. Of course he w ould pull over and pick up the almost drowned rat that is Theon.

------------------------------------------------------------

Nymeria!!! I, too, screamed her name as soon as I saw Arya surrounded by a wolf pack. I have no doubt that really is Nymeria, however, when Arya muttered "it's not her" I couldn't help but imagine that was exactly what Nymeria was thinking. They've been apart for all of their formative years. Nymeria has gathered herself a pack. We know that Arya is a far different person than Nymeria would have bonded with. I fear that Nymeria abandoning Arya may be prophetic. :-(

 

I wasn't expecting most of the gathered "allies" of Dany would be wiped out so quickly... and so soon.

Urine is a significantly more effective fighter than all the previous Greyjoys we've seen. Theon turning tail was possibly the best thing he could have done. At least his time with Ramsey taught him to recognize his own weaknesses. The Gods (in this case, the writers) must still need him for something.

----------------------------------------------------

Joke aside, I really am hoping - now that we've see Hot Pie again - that Gendry will show up too. And plucking Theon from that watery hell would be a good introduction. I can even hopefully speculate that Gendry may have quite taken to the sea (he'd never been in a boat before when we last saw him) and become quite the seafarer. I type that out loud because I have very low expectations for that spitball. I am preparing myself for a lot of our favourite characters to die.

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

What was Urine saying to Theon before he jumped?

He was taunting Theon to come and save his sister.

--------------------------------
The Jon Snow/Little Finger scene in the crypt was an interesting call back. I loved seeing Ned's likeness. But I did wonder when there was time for that statue of Ned to be made and when his bones were actually delivered to Winterfell because first Theon  and then the Boltons had control of it. LF claimed that Tyrion sent him to deliver Ned's bones to Catelyn but I don't remember that (that's what I heard him say anyway).

But I digress. The bits that stood out for me were 1) the call back to S01E01. Robert professing his love for Ned's sister mirrored by LF professing his love for Jon's sister, and neither Stark buying it. That leading to call back 2) a Stark male choking LF for disrespecting a Stark female. Again S01 but I forgot which episode Ned choked LF outside the brothel but it generated the famous muttered line from LF after Ned left "Starks, quick tempers, slow minds".  If that like-father-like-son display convinces LF that he can play Jon the way he played Ned he's got another think coming!

[walnutqueen]

Well, THAT was a lot to digest.  I may need to rewatch several times before I catch it all (and damn every show that films any scene in the dark - I couldn't see SHIT during that battle/massacre!).

Such high hopes for Dani's motley crew; dashed to Hell by that Urine creeper.  Le sigh.

Nymeria took one look at Arya's unfortunate moon face and decided to wait until the poor girl grows out of her "awkward phase".  Can't blame the wee doggie - I had much the same reaction.  She was a cute kid, but ...

Gratuitous sex scene with the two best bodies on this show?  Ok, I'm down with it.  I guess.  I mean, at least I didn't avert my eyes.

Still am lovin' me some Varys - such a clever man.  Tyrion's running a close second.  In the world I inhabit, that's a guaranteed Kiss of Death.  Hope this show breaks that curse.

[ChocButterfly]

4 hours ago, Anothermi said:

I have no doubt that really is Nymeria, however, when Arya muttered "it's not her" I couldn't help but imagine that was exactly what Nymeria was thinking.

No, what Arya said was: "That's not you". Meaning, it wasn't Nymeria's personality to abandon her wilderness and just return back home and being a pet. She is a wild wolf by now, and I took that to mean that Arya realized that that wasn't her either, that she's also wild by now and there's no place at home for her anymore. I think she will go back and finish her list. Pity, because I really wanted to see Arya reunite with her siblings, I actually cheered when she changed directions to the North.

Quote

I had to mute that ship battle scene because I am a lightweight with those scenes...what I got was, all the Sand snakes are dead, including Mama, and Urine killed Yara after Theron jumped overboard, is that correct Spitballers? 

I take it that Mama and the pretty Sand Snake are alive, because the soldiers said they wouldn't kill them when Mama told them to just do it already. I beleive Urine will take them alive to Cersei, so she can torture them or whatever her sick mind has in plan. It's a pity, that Sand Snake is really, really beautiful. I hope whatever Cersei does, doesn't mess up her face. The other 2 Snakes are dead, as dead can be. Yara....I have no idea. I think Urine killed her, but we don't know. 

I don't know why LF told Jon about Sansa. What was he expecting, that Jon would bethrote her sister to him?? I thought that was stupid of him, as stupid as Jon trying to choke him. Good thinking there Jon, threatening the guy who has the biggest army at Winterfell just when you're leaving the place! Idiot.

I'm not sure about Dany's plan. Well, we've already seen is not working since she has already lost her 2 mayor allies and she doesn't even know it! But, she has a point. At least she's trying not to repeat her mistakes at Essos. In Mereen she did exactly what Olenna annd Ellaria wanted her to do. She just used all her dragon power and took everything by force. Then shit came....She doesn't want the same to happen here. She's trying to do the smart thing by making alliances  and pacts with key people in Westeros. 

Uhhhh, Jon is going to meet with Dany!!! I totally ship them as well. And what do you think is going to happen when Davos and Jon see that Red Witch giving advice to Dany?

Edited July 24, 2017 by ChocButterfly

[DirewolfPup]

Nymeria!!! Look at her leading her own wolf pack. The last 7 years have been good to her! I'm sure she'll show up again, but now is not the time to be Arya's buddy. Will this interaction make Arya change her mind and continue south? Direwolves echo their owners, or so we've guessed. Nymeria is wild and free. Perhaps Arya needs to accomplish what she's set out to accomplish before returning home to the comfortable life.

Jorah... just ugh. I could go the rest of my life never seeing that scene again. No thank you!

I'm getting some sad feels for poor Grey Worm. All that heartfelt love with no way to physically bear it out. Sounds like torture.

The Cersei just blew up the Sept with several noble families inside. Yet, Dany's a monster for crucifying noble families. Everyone needs a good clean mirror. All of you are "killas" (-The Hound). A brigade of hypocrites.

This whole "take a huge army and separate them to take two holds at once" plan was pretty terrible. The more soldiers you have attacking KL, the quicker the battle is fought and have fewer casualties. If you really wanted Casterly Rock, take that first, leave Dragonstone, and THEN attack KL. Also, a great show of power followed by mercy looks a lot better than Cersei right now. Robert won the rebellion when he took KL. KL is the key. Why oh why!?! Won't you use your dragons? Play your ace. Drawing it all out is doing no one any favors. Winter is coming dammit...

Jon and Davos will be reuniting with some folks. I can only imagine Davos' frustration. Couldn't get away from Meli at Dragonstone. Couldn't get away from her on the battlefield. Couldn't get away from her at the wall. Couldn't get away from her at Winterfell. You finally cast her out only to be reunited like a week later. Poor guy.

The ship battle bothered me more than a little. How did Urine sneak up on approximately 100 ships? All of a sudden, they're sieged upon and all other ships are burning already?  Wouldn't the ships on the outside of the fleet be like "Yo! Ahoy there! We're being attacked. Help? Maybe?" You can't just attack from the center outward. That made absolutely no sense to me.

[Pallas]

4 hours ago, Anothermi said:

LF claimed that Tyrion sent him to deliver Ned's bones to Catelyn but I don't remember that (that's what I heard him say anywa!y).

Now you've done it, anothermi. Mirroring Shimpy's devotion to Knifey is mine to The Bones of Ned Stark.

Littlefinger's explaining to us to Jon how they came to rest in Winterfell was clumsy exposition by the standards of A Show, but the soul of truth by his own. Baelish did bring Ned's bones to Catelyn during The War of the Five Kings, when he and she were each visiting Renly's camp, acting as emissaries: Littlefinger for the Lannisters, and Catelyn for Robb. In Renly's tent, over Ned's coffin, he tried wooing Ned's widow -- shades of Richard III, a/k/a, Richard Crookback. Catelyn was still spitting fire and being soothed by her host when Stannis's shade showed up to murder Renly. Acting fast (not twenty years a Stark for nothing), Cat grabbed Renly's bodyguard Brienne and took her back with her to Robb's camp, having some notion that witchhunts begin when bad things happen to powerful men with a serious woman nearby. 

I didn't believe that in her haste, Cat could have taken Ned's bones with her. But she must have done -- and had them immediately sent back up the lines to Winterfell. Before it fell to Theon? Because otherwise, after Stannis entered Renly's camp and found the coffin (if it were marked, and left untouched by Renly's fleeing armies)...to honor Ned who died trying to serve him, Stannis must have sent the coffin to Robb's camp, which dispatched it to Winterfell. Because otherwise, Stannis would have been toting dem bones all the way back to Dragonstone, and from Dragonstone on board ship all the way-er back north to beyond the Wall, and from there, to Castle Black and then his final camp outside Winterfell, leaving the coffin for Jon to find when he approached with his army...

...And left safely behind when Jon and his forces went into battle with Ramsay, and nearly lost. Because Littlefinger first ordered the Knights of the Vale to search everywhere through Jon's deserted camp for the bones he meant to present to Sansa now. 

[janjan]

I think Choc nailed it with Nimyria -- "That's not you" meaning "Coming with me as a pet isn't what you are now." Arya smiled when she said it, meaning she accepts the change. And, recognizing that she, too, is different now, maybe she will turn back south instead of trying to revive her old family bond at Winterfell.

Still, I can spitball a scene when Arya gets in trouble on the road -- bandits, maybe -- and Nimyria, who's been hiding in the bushes like Sean Spicer, bursts out with a press release, er, I mean, with fangs bared and saves the day. But will she stay,or go back to her pack?

Wouldn't it be neat if, after all Dany's lifelong quest and her allies' machinations and dragons and ships and multiple armies, it is a lone little girl who defeats Cersei?

BTW, remember the scene where Dany goes to the house of the warlocks to retrieve her dragons? The Masters of Illusion show her a revived Drogo and baby. She doesn't buy it, so they show her a desolate throne room with a funny-looking throne. At the time, we thought it was the throne room at KL after some massive disaster, but now it looks like the throne at Dragonstone (as nearly as I can remember -- we need our archivists to resolve the matter.) But it might mean that Dany lives on as Queen of a bare rock, lording it over seagulls and rats, while the Starks win in the end and Jon becomes Lord of the seven kingdoms, protector of the realm, king of the Andals and the first men, etc.

Bran has gotta tell Jon who his mother was. He's just gotta.

[Anothermi]

6 hours ago, ChocButterfly said:

No, what Arya said was: "That's not you". Meaning, it wasn't Nymeria's personality to abandon her wilderness and just return back home and being a pet. She is a wild wolf by now, and I took that to mean that Arya realized that that wasn't her either, that she's also wild by now and there's no place at home for her anymore. I think she will go back and finish her list. Pity, because I really wanted to see Arya reunite with her siblings, I actually cheered when she changed directions to the North.

Well done, Choc!!! THAT makes much more sense. I shouldn't have been so lazy as to not re-watch that section so as to get the quote right. It makes a big difference in meaning. (standing clap)

"That's not you" fits all the mirroring we've seen going on with season one. Ned laid out Arya's future to her on some steps in the Red Keep (marrying a Lord to do the fighting) and Arya replying "That's not me." (at least I picked up on those words being meant to have come from Nymeria)

5 hours ago, DirewolfPup said:

The Cersei just blew up the Sept with several noble families inside. Yet, Dany's a monster for crucifying noble families. Everyone needs a good clean mirror.

 Good point Pup. But as Randal Tarly intimated to  Jaime, HE was aware that you don't tell Cersei what she doesn't want to hear. The Lords in that scene didn't have to remember as far back as the Mad King to know that fear and obedience to their ruler is a rational response in the circumstances.

I'm afraid that Lady Olenna's loss of her one dynastic hope (her grand daughter) has blunted her scheming skills.

Tyrion's skills are a little off as well. He's planning for the end result, but as Pup pointed out, winning with force first and showing compassion after would likely have an equally positive result.

5 hours ago, Pallas said:

Now you've done it, anothermi. Mirroring Shimpy's devotion to Knifey is mine to The Bones of Ned Stark.

Hee! I remember well LF delivering Ned's bones (but not his head IIRC) to Catelyn but not that it was ordered by Tyrion. Having said that (and come to think of it), that IS the sort of thing Tyrion would have thought of. Not so much to order it but to ask LF to take them as a gesture of respect. LF, for his part, if he hadn't thought of it already, would have seen value in being the one to appear to have thought of it himself.

But you do lay out very clearly the problem I had with how they ended up at Winterfell and a Statue made for him BEFORE all the rest of the shit hit the fan. Cat clearly didn't have time to bring them with her. I think we even had his bones on a Milk Carton campaign.

I'm in favour of your "Stannis dealt with them in the appropriate way by having them sent to Winterfell after he took over Renly's war camp". I don't think LF would keep them around once their use to him had pretty much disappeared, but then, he might have kept them in case he stumbled on a second chance to try to ingratiate himself to Catelyn. He wouldn't have assumed she would die just because she left in a hurry.

ETA: regardless of how they got there, I think we can end the Milk Carton campaign for Ned's bones.

Edited July 24, 2017 by Anothermi

[ChocButterfly]

Well, guys, it helps that I have subtitles in Spanish to watch the show, hehe.

Quote

Bran has gotta tell Jon who his mother was. He's just gotta.

I know! Why hasn't he sent a raven by now? He should be at Winterfell, but let's say he's slow (he can't walk), at least send a raven and let them know you're alive dude!

I'll take the bones thing as an act of faith. One of those contrivances for the sake of the plot. Such as, how on earth did Urine get his ships so close to Yara's, being able to climb it and all without them finding out until they were next to them? Like, no one saw Urine's fleet from afar, no one??

I have a question though, was the entire Dornish armada with Yara's ships? I didn't understand that well, where were they suposed to be heading? Cause I remember the Dornish army was suposed to siege KL with the Tyrells. And if there's still a Dornish army, who is suposed to be leading them? Have they no heirs? It seems weird that a bunch of treasonous bastards were heading the country. I'm sure there were other cousins and such that should inherit the Dornish throne.

[janjan]

Maybe the Dornish heirs fell into a plot hole, along with all the shipbuilders and trees that Urine managed to scare up on short notice, the stonemasons who carved Ned's statue under Ramsay's nose, the horse who carried Melisandre all the way south over wintry lands with no grazing (on a trip that took the royal party a month in S1E1), and various other kludge ex machina that keep the plot moving along. I tend to give these things a pass, ever since the Nights Watch deserter who saw the WWs and escaped south over the wall in S1. As much as I love to nitpick, some things just don't withstand scrutiny, so hey, whatever.

[gingerella]

1 hour ago, ChocButterfly said:

I have a question though, was the entire Dornish armada with Yara's ships? I didn't understand that well, where were they suposed to be heading? Cause I remember the Dornish army was suposed to siege KL with the Tyrells. And if there's still a Dornish army, who is suposed to be leading them? Have they no heirs? It seems weird that a bunch of treasonous bastards were heading the country. I'm sure there were other cousins and such that should inherit the Dornish throne.

IIRC Choc, Yara's fleet was headed back to Dorne with the Sand Snakes, to go fetch the Dornish army and do the seigey stuff together. So it seems that that Dornish army still exists, it just has no clue what it was signed up to do since it's fearless leader is not there to inform them. Though I'm sure Urine will put the two snakes to good use...it seems like whenever we get rid of The Most Heinous Being In The World, another one comes along after a couple of episodes to replace the last one, and the new one is more heinous that we thought possible. Exhibit A: Joffs. Exhibit B: Ramsey. Exhibit C: Urine.

8 hours ago, ChocButterfly said:

No, what Arya said was: "That's not you". Meaning, it wasn't Nymeria's personality to abandon her wilderness and just return back home and being a pet. She is a wild wolf by now, and I took that to mean that Arya realized that that wasn't her either, that she's also wild by now and there's no place at home for her anymore. I think she will go back and finish her list. Pity, because I really wanted to see Arya reunite with her siblings, I actually cheered when she changed directions to the North.

and

7 hours ago, DirewolfPup said:

Nymeria!!! Look at her leading her own wolf pack. The last 7 years have been good to her! I'm sure she'll show up again, but now is not the time to be Arya's buddy. Will this interaction make Arya change her mind and continue south? Direwolves echo their owners, or so we've guessed. Nymeria is wild and free. Perhaps Arya needs to accomplish what she's set out to accomplish before returning home to the comfortable life.

and

4 hours ago, janjan said:

I think Choc nailed it with Nimyria -- "That's not you" meaning "Coming with me as a pet isn't what you are now." Arya smiled when she said it, meaning she accepts the change. And, recognizing that she, too, is different now, maybe she will turn back south instead of trying to revive her old family bond at Winterfell.

Still, I can spitball a scene when Arya gets in trouble on the road -- bandits, maybe -- and Nimyria, who's been hiding in the bushes like Sean Spicer, bursts out with a press release, er, I mean, with fangs bared and saves the day. But will she stay,or go back to her pack?

are all excellent interpretations on what we saw last night. I have to agree with a night's sleep, that it doesn't make any sense whatsoever for that direwolf to NOT be Nymeria, so it must have been her. I'd like to think that Janjan's spitball will come to fruition - Nymeria will silently shadow Arya as she travels through the forest, and when she is grave peril, Nymeria and perhaps her entire pack, will save Arya's ass because at the end of the day, Arya and Nymeria ARE  the OG pack.

[Anothermi]

1 hour ago, ChocButterfly said:

I have a question though, was the entire Dornish armada with Yara's ships? I didn't understand that well, where were they suposed to be heading? Cause I remember the Dornish army was supposed to siege KL with the Tyrells. And if there's still a Dornish army, who is suposed to be leading them?

Good questions all. And including the question of how could Urine's humongous ships - even ONE of them - not be noticed. What ship worth its salt would not have someone always in the crowsnest, if only to yell land-ho? Urine's ships were 2 to 3 times the size of Yara's fleet! In fact, when I 1st saw them I wondered that they didn't tip over easily what with the spaghetti-western-town false fronts all around the rear upper decks.

I suppose the lovely configuration of the sails is supposed to make his ships fast and quiet, but IIRC Sir Francis Drake's (et al) ships were small, fast and agile against the huge Spanish galleons (built along the lines of Urine's, who definitely subscribes to the theory that bigger is better although I didn't get a good look at the size of his fingers, hee). So, I guess we do just have to hand wave that part and boil it down to Uncle Urine won that battle somehow.

The Dornish questions... I think Prince Trystane was the sole male heir until his cousins killed him. Ellaria and her Sand snakes, from what we've been shown, became the defacto rulers of Dorne. We've been given no other info on other relations except for the deceased children of the deceased sister Elia. Another great House of the Seven Kingdoms gone.

We also weren't ever shown that Dorne had a lot of ships. Just one or two. Yara and her ships were sent to convey the Dornish army to meet up with Olenna's army to lay seige to King's Landing. We know the Dornish didn't fight the Targaryens (just made a pact with them) but that they probably fought against Robert's Rebellion. That kind of leaves us with the remaining children of the historically inept Greyjoys and the never-led-an-army-before Elaria Sand as the leader of the fleet headed toward King's Landing. That might be enough to explain how Urine could sneak up on them. He claimed he'd learned a great deal in his worldly travels and so far it seems he did (except for those cumbersome ships).

I don't know if he fore saw the plan that Tyrion came up with. And given the fluid time frames this show provides us to work with, it might be that he just happened upon Yara's fleet on his way from King's Landing to get the gift he promised Cersei. That doesn't make sense - time wise - but not much else has. Although it is a good gift for Cersei it doesn't really live up to the level of hype Urine gave it.

Again, due to the fluid time frames, the Greyjoy fleet may have just been on it's way to Dorne and there were no Dornish soldiers aboard. That would put a crimp in  Dornish support of any kind even if they did have another leader in waiting.

 

Apologies for the stuff I've repeated that Ging provided. I got distracted in the middle of writing it and Ging ended up posting before I got back to it.

Edited July 24, 2017 by Anothermi

[Anothermi]

I have another niggle bothering me.

When Hot Pie and Arya say goodbye to each other, she tells him to take care of himself and try not to get killed. He replies that she shouldn't worry. He's like (sounded like Urie or Irri), he's a survivor. Then she gives him a look that part affection/part pity.

I can't think of any character who fits the name or the description Hot Pie gave. The only Irri was with Danearys, and there is no reference to a Urie in the character guide. Perhaps, Choc, your subtitles gave the name? I'm bugged that Hot Pie reference someone that Arya would know but I can't remember him.

[ChocButterfly]

2 hours ago, Anothermi said:

I have another niggle bothering me.

When Hot Pie and Arya say goodbye to each other, she tells him to take care of himself and try not to get killed. He replies that she shouldn't worry. He's like (sounded like Urie or Irri), he's a survivor. Then she gives him a look that part affection/part pity.

I can't think of any character who fits the name or the description Hot Pie gave. The only Irri was with Danearys, and there is no reference to a Urie in the character guide. Perhaps, Choc, your subtitles gave the name? I'm bugged that Hot Pie reference someone that Arya would know but I can't remember him.

I believe he said "Arry". That was Arya's name when she was passing for a boy. He kept calling her Arry, because he was used to it. I guess she'll always be Arry to him.

[Anothermi]

23 minutes ago, ChocButterfly said:

I believe he said "Arry". That was Arya's name when she was passing for a boy. He kept calling her Arry, because he was used to it. I guess she'll always be Arry to him.

Thanks so much, Choc. Sometimes the character's accent makes things difficult.

[Pallas]

Yes, 'Ot Poi said in Cockney, "Oi'm loik yerr, (H)arry: Oi'm a suvoivah."

The Varys and Dany scene was long due. More exposition, really, but I'm glad the writers wanted us to know that the characters know what we know about their history, and have acknowledged it to each other. Varys may have hinted at his fate when he said, "As long as I have eyes..." 

Ser Davos first hears about the dragons three seconds before he says, "That just might suck for the White Walkers."  I'm surprised he didn't take one look at Jon Snow and say, "Ah yes, Lyanna's boy." 

The Citadel is also losing its way, the Maesters pursuing private projects and refusing to intervene in matters large and small. Another Westerosi institution in decay, like the Great Houses, the crown and the church. Perhaps this decay has helped bring on The Long Night.

Dragonstone is built on a mountain of dragonglass. Jon said, "Dragonglass is now worth more than gold."  Jon is on his way to meet Tyrion, and Tyrion is sending an army to take Casterly Rock. Casterly Rock is built near mountains of gold. That entire Lannister mining industry is about to be relocated. 

The new abominable Lannister crossbow = phase 1 of Project Dragon-Be-Gone (and here's to you, WhiteStumbler!). And to think, we don't even have the Boltons left to thank for Qyburn. 

I did not see Yara and Ellaria coming to ruin together, and so soon. I agree, the question is, did Euron go looking for them as his gift to Cersei?  Or are they stocking-stuffers he came upon in his pursuit of something priceless for his girl?

Arya's turning north, then encountering Nymeria, was poignant. Dany and Drogon in Mereen, yet more like Bran and Benjen beyond the Wall. Yes, "That's not me," said the little girl to her father, the man who always saw her in the crowd. 

Edited July 26, 2017 by Pallas
Because Dany isn't Cersei, and there's a book in that...

[ChocButterfly]

7 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Thanks so much, Choc. Sometimes the character's accent makes things difficult.

You're welcome! It's a good thing I have subtitles, cuz if not I wouldn't understand a third of what they're saying. And I usually understand everything in English, but that show can have some damned accents at times!

4 hours ago, Pallas said:

The Varys and Dany scene was long due. More exposition, really, but I'm glad the writers wanted us to know that the characters know what we know about their history, and have acknowledged it to each other. Varys may have hinted at his fate when he said, "As long as I have eyes..." 

Yeah, like Varys went to Mereen, no? We surely saw him in the ship Dany was in the last chapter of the past season. So, this guy comes, and brings help from Westeros. They even travel together for probably months in a ship and it never occurred to Dany to have that conversation with him until now? Ha!

[WhiteStumbler]

9 hours ago, Pallas said:

The new abominable Lannister crossbow = phase 1 of Project Dragon-Be-Gone (and here's to you, WhiteStumbler!). And to think, we don't even have the Boltons left to thank for Qyburn.

I had been thinking that the Dragon-Be-Gone would be some sort of fog or magical repellant or something. I had no idea that Qyburn would be up to something! And we can "blame" Robb and Talisa for saving Qyburn's life, so he could build a FrankenMountain and an Abominable Dragon Slayer Crossbow. Such small events ripple out and out...
That scene with Qyburn and Cersei reminded me of Margaery (sigh) and Joffrey (booo!) playing with a crossbow... Mags: "I imagine it must be so exciting to squeeze your finger here and watch something die over there." I have a bad feeling about the fate of at least one of the dragons. :-(

Also a nice callback to S01 - "The people drink secret toasts to your health", Illyrio feeding Viserys a line of horseshyte. I still don't understand why Varys tried to actually have Dany assassinated. I thought the Bad Wine Assassin was sent to be caught, but Varys contradicted that belief on Sunday.

And another callback - Maester Cressen was the one who cured Shireen's grayscale and taught her to read (she told Gilly that at The Wall) - I wonder if that is the same maester who tried and failed to kill Mel with poison?

Another callback - Tyrion's plan to take Casterly Rock sounds a lot like King Robb's plan to do so before the Red Wedding. Uh oh.

Why was Varys OK with Mel? He said of her prior to Blackwater "The dark arts have provided Lord Stannis with his armies and paved his path to our door. For a man in service to such powers to sit on the Iron Throne, I can think of nothing worse." And I am looking forward to Davos v. Mel Round VI.

Saddest quote of the episode...

Hot Pie: What happened to you, Arry?
Oh buddy, you have No. Freaking. Idea.

And thanks for straightening out the Nymeria NON-reunion. I was confused, but you brought clarity. That was a long time to wait for such a disappointing "reunion". (sigh)

[janjan]

Quote

WS: the Nymeria NON-reunion. .... That was a long time to wait for such a disappointing "reunion". (sigh)

Take heart, dear Stumbler. Nymeria will be back in Arya's hour of need. I bet my bippy.

[Anothermi]

1 hour ago, WhiteStumbler said:

And another callback - Maester Cressen was the one who cured Shireen's grayscale and taught her to read (she told Gilly that at The Wall) - I wonder if that is the same maester who tried and failed to kill Mel with poison?

Maester Cressen. I'd almost forgotten about him - and I totally missed the reference until you referred to it. I think I remember Shireen telling Gilly that he taught her to read at age 3!!! But I don't remember her saying he cured her greyscale. In fact I was under the impression that Melissandre did as that was what made Stannis accept all her crazy schemes. He wasn't a man who was easily impressed, but Mel impressed him with that.

Sam's Arch-Maester only said that Maester Cressen found Shireen's greyscale early. Not that he was able to cure it. I checked the S05 episode and Shireen told Gilly that many people came and tried but she didn't know who cured her. It is possible that Maester Cressen DID find a cure and that it took effect at the time Melissadre was also trying (which might account for his attempt to poison her), but that is only speculation.

[WhiteStumbler]

4 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Sam's Arch-Maester only said that Maester Cressen found Shireen's greyscale early. Not that he was able to cure it.

Ah, you are right! I heard it wrong. Maester Cressen just discovered it immediately, and it is not explicitly stated that HE cured it.

Sam: Um Pardon, Archmaester. I met Stannis Baratheon's daughter at Castle Black. She had the greyscale as a baby and was cured.
Archmaester: No.
Sam: Isn't there some way
Archmaester: Does this look like a baby to you?
Sam: No.
Archmaester: Have you studied the varying rates of greyscale progression in infants and fully grown men?
Sam: No.
Archmaester: Maester Cressen discovered Shireen Baratheon's affliction immediately. This is quite advanced.

5 hours ago, janjan said:

Take heart, dear Stumbler. Nymeria will be back in Arya's hour of need. I bet my bippy.

From your lips to the Seven's ears, old friend.

[Pallas]

19 hours ago, WhiteStumbler said:

That scene with Qyburn and Cersei reminded me of Margaery (sigh) and Joffrey (booo!) playing with a crossbow... Mags: "I imagine it must be so exciting to squeeze your finger here and watch something die over there." I have a bad feeling about the fate of at least one of the dragons. :-(

Oof. That reference stung indeed. And I'm sorry to agree, that at least one of the dragons -- like most of the Stark direwolves -- will not survive the assault. I fear that one may even be poisoned beforehand (by an interloper, but sowing terrible suspicion within Dany's circle). 

19 hours ago, WhiteStumbler said:

I still don't understand why Varys tried to actually have Dany assassinated. I thought the Bad Wine Assassin was sent to be caught, but Varys contradicted that belief on Sunday.

He did. My guess would be that Varys ignored Jorah's missives about the value of Dany over Viscerys -- just as he ignored Robert's change of heart, conveyed by Ned -- and stuck with his plan to use Dany's death to light a fire under Drogo to fulfill his part of the marriage barter and set sail with his army to conquer Westeros. It still worked, even though Dany survived, and replaced Viscerys.

Was this simply a misjudgment on Varys's part; did he have a plan in place to defang Viscerys once he was crowned, or even oust him, if he grew too troublesome? Just as he'd once imagined he could manage Joffrey (in a definite misjudgment)? Or is Varys, perhaps, playing the deepest game of all? Has he found that speaking of "the realm" and "the people" to the right lords and princes gets him trusted as a counselor, because it makes lords and princes feel good to see themselves as good, as visionary, as that rare ruler who seeks out and rewards those who speak truth to power?  

We know he's held his tongue with all the bad kings, and the great, soulless man behind them -- all those now dead, save Cersei -- and said all the right, "candid" things to those who turned out to be the right people. I think of Baelish using candor against Ned. As well as, of course, the long-ago scene between Baelish and Varys in the Throne Room. Next to Varys, Baelish looks transparent indeed, especially these days. I don't know. Perhaps Varys's deeper game is simply what, to me, seems to be the author's: the end of kings. 

And speaking of Baelish as a foil, what's gotten into Kit Harrington? He's been terrific as the King of the North, and never more so than in his scene with Littlefinger in the crypt. Baelish waxes on about being sorry Ned was killed, and "She greatly underestimated you!" and "And here you are, the one last hope -- " and on that, Jon unsheathes the steel of his contempt: no flourish, no gesture, just one look and six words: "You don't belong in this place."  Mockingbird-Be-Gone.

Edited July 26, 2017 by Pallas

[gingerella]

Pallas, your missives about Varys' endgame potentially being about the end of all Kings has me thinking about the  various and sundry "ruling" houses and their current status:

1. House Baratheon

Pretty much decimated, save for Gendry, who is a bastard anyway and whom we may never see again.

 

2. House Frey

Done-zo.

 

3. House Dorne (Don't remember their family name)

Elaria and one sand snake alive, but probably going to wish they were dead soon, given they're prisoners of Urine.

 

4. House Targaryen

Dany is the only full Targ, Jon half Targ. In most Houses being half would not be an issue but we know that for House Targ some dragon powers come with having only one branch on ye olde family tree...

 

5. House Lannister

Cersei, Jamie,  no heirs. Cersei seems too old to have more children but who knows...If there are no more children, then House Lannister is dead in the water, no pun intended.

 

6. House Stark

We have Sansa, who likely cannot get pregnant given the physical abuse she suffered at Bolton's hand. We have not been told this explicitly, at least I don't think we have, but it stands to reason given rape she has suffered and she hasn't gotten pregnant from any of it. FUck it makes me sad to write that last para. And we have Jon, who is half Stark so it seems he really is the legitimate heir to Winterfell, yes? And we have Arya and Bran still alive and kicking, methaphorically speaking...

 

7. House Tyrell

Other than very elderly Olenna, almost done. No heirs that we know of.

 

8. Other Houses

House Tarley - Methinks that Papa T and Dickon, or was it Rickon?! I feel they are not long for this world given that Cersei demands they fight for her. BUT... I suspect Sam will make it to the end. Perhaps he will preserve the history of his life events and what he has seen and experienced for future generations because it seems like he is the only person at the Citadel who has actually seen a WW and understands how to vanquish them. He is the only one so far who has bothered  to read a damn book and see that Dragonstone is build on an underground mountain of dragon glass too. What I cannot fathom is that anyone at the Citadel hasnt received any ravens explaining that Winter is fucking coming and with WWs and an army of the dead...Have we seen Sam tell anyone such direct terms? I can't remember...

 

I guess my point in the House Roundup is that it is starting to feel like all the major Houses are dwindling down to their last dregs, except House Stark, which has most of its heirs still alive (I hope I don't regret writing that)...

Edited July 27, 2017 by gingerella

[Llywela]

Ahh, finally managed to get my hands on this episode - and most of the commentary I'd make has already been made.

I was very struck by Jon's Neddishness in this episode. He might not be Ned's son, but he has a huge amount of Ned in him, that unwavering resolve to pursue what he believes to be the right thing to do, no matter what anyone says. I was also very touched by the trust he placed in Sansa, given how much they have disagreed on points of policy later - but again, that's a very Ned thing to do, leaving Sansa in charge because she is his sister and the rightful heir regardless of whether or not their opinions tally. Even threatening Littlefinger was pure Ned - and possibly a very unwise move, time will tell. Yeah, Jon was channelling his inner Ned like whoa here - and yet he also brings so much of himself to the table, experiences and understanding that Ned never had. It has brought him this far - we will see how he fares up against a Dany who has lost half her allies already! Can he convince her that she is looking in the wrong direction, that the war against Cersei for Westeros is meaningless in the grand scheme of things, with the White Walkers and army of the dead on their way south?

Speaking of Dany's allies being wiped out, I might lament the Sand Snakes more if I'd ever got a feel for them as individuals, but as it is, I still couldn't even tell you all three of their names, never mind which is which! It seems Euron's plan to impress Cersei was as simple as taking out a few of her enemies after all - an effective strategy, as well, with the Unsullied already committed to their attack on Casterly Rock, so Dany no longer has an armada of allies to besiege King's Landing. If she wants to take it, will she be forced to use the dragons after all, as Olenna would advise? Can Tyrion persuade her once more to stay her hand, since he cares about collateral damage and Olenna I think does not, so long as Cersei burns? Next week is going to be interesting!

[ChocButterfly]

7 hours ago, Llywela said:

I was very struck by Jon's Neddishness in this episode. He might not be Ned's son, but he has a huge amount of Ned in him, that unwavering resolve to pursue what he believes to be the right thing to do, no matter what anyone says. I was also very touched by the trust he placed in Sansa, given how much they have disagreed on points of policy later - but again, that's a very Ned thing to do, leaving Sansa in charge because she is his sister and the rightful heir regardless of whether or not their opinions tally. Even threatening Littlefinger was pure Ned - and possibly a very unwise move, time will tell. Yeah, Jon was channelling his inner Ned like whoa here -

You're so right! He was very Neddish. And the Neddishest most stupid thing he did there was choking LF. Leaving Sansa in charge didn't surprise me at all, because, first, who else can he trust? And second: "There shall always be a Stark in Winterfell". 

8 hours ago, gingerella said:

We have Sansa, who likely cannot get pregnant given the physical abuse she suffered at Bolton's hand. We have not been told this explicitly, at least I don't think we have, but it stands to reason given rape she has suffered and she hasn't gotten pregnant from any of it. FUck it makes me sad to write that last para. And we have Jon, who is half Stark so it seems he really is the legitimate heir to Winterfell, yes? And we have Arya and Bran still alive and kicking, methaphorically speaking...

I don't think Sansa is sterile, I mean, we haven't seen anything hinting of that. Either way, it doesn't matter. The real heir of Winterfell is Bran. And I don't know if the Northeners are going to crown him once he gets to Winterfell (if he does at all!). Let's face it, the only reason they accepted Jon as King is because they even prefer a bastard male than a "true" female heir as Sansa. That, and Jon was commanding the armies, duh.

 

7 hours ago, Llywela said:

Speaking of Dany's allies being wiped out, I might lament the Sand Snakes more if I'd ever got a feel for them as individuals, but as it is, I still couldn't even tell you all three of their names, never mind which is which! I

For me it has always been the "Pretty One" and the other 2. That's how much I can tell you about the stupid Snakes.

My question now would be, with Jon's arrival and information, will Dany still try to seize King's Landing first, or will she go straight North and battle the dead? My guess is she'll continue with her trying to seize the throne. This season will be all about that and they'll probably leave the final battle of the Dead for the last season. Plus, we know it has taken those dead people 7 years to reach the Wall and they're not even there yet!!). What's another year more of walking?

[WhiteStumbler]

22 hours ago, gingerella said:

Pallas, your missives about Varys' endgame potentially being about the end of all Kings has me thinking about the  various and sundry "ruling" houses

Ginger, that was great, and made me think of another wrinkle - How many of the Seven Kingdoms are currently ruled by a woman!

Dorne: Ruled by Momma Sandsnake, though for how long...?
Tyrell: Queen of Thornes
Lannister: Cersei
Stark: Sansa in charge since Jon is absent
Targaryen: Dany
Exceptions: Greyjoy (though Yara was a claimant for at least a few episodes), Arryn, and whatever is going on with House Tully.

Two more callbacks to previous seasons I missed -
Hot Pie: (to Arya) The lady knight? You know, I figured she was a knight 'cause she had armor on. She was looking for your sister, but I told her about you. Did she ever find you?

Back in Season 2...

Arya: Gendry's an armorer's apprentice. Hot Pie, tell Gendry what makes a fight into a battle.
Hot Pie: It's when they've got armor on.
Gendry: And who told you that?
Hot Pie: A knight?
Gendry: How'd you know he was a knight?
Hot Pie: Well, cause he… got armor on.

And Tyrion, practically winking at the camera as he proclaims again that he is an excellent judge of character.

I also missed that Mel failed to even MENTION the fact that Jon Snow was killed by his own men and brought back to life! I was soooo wrong about her destination so far this season - I would have bet a stack of gold dragons that she would have run into the Brotherhood, but her at Dragonstone could be a very interesting wrinkle (as interesting as Momma Sandsnake being on the same side as Tyrion Lannister).

[Glory]

A lot happened in this week's episode, but at the same time I felt a lot didn't happen. If that makes any sense. 

I wanted to scream when Jon said he and Ser Davos would go to Dragonstone. Ser Davos is, quite literally, the only sane person in Westeros (and maybe my favorite character). Why bring him with you Jon? Leaving the North to Sansa and Littlefinger is garbage. He'll be lucky if the place is still standing when he gets back. At least Ser Davos could have mitigated some of Sansa's ruthlessness. Maybe. I'm scared for my Onion Knight. 

Speaking of Sansa, she fucking drives me nuts every time she argues with Jon in front of all their retainers. Can't you talk to him in private? I feel as if Jon would be much more receptive to her opinions if she didn't flat out call him an idiot at every turn. 

I'm so very excited for Jon and Dany to meet - but I am actually kind of scared for it. Not for what will happen, necessarily, but because I have been building it up in my head and I'm not sure the actors are up to it. I hope there is some acting chemistry there. At least a little? 

I hope Sam leaves with Ser Jorah whenever the cure is finished. He has to realize that he could be more help at Jon's side, right? I hate seeing him stuck in the library. Everyone else is moving towards one another and he feels so isolated. 

I'm still not sure what I think of Jaime... does he really think Cersei is a good queen? Does he really think he can hold KL even with the Tyrell's help? I wonder if he's just thinking "Well, we're in the shit now and we're probably not getting out but I better do some damage while I can?" 

[Pallas]

12 hours ago, ChocButterfly said:

What's another year more of walking?

Heh.  "Seven years! Seven years, the Night King said! Winter is coming -- who said anything about dividing it into two seasons!" 

Jon was absolutely Ned -- the Ned we knew, the Ned he knew, and not the Ned we saw at Jon's age, about to be changed by the vow he undertook. The vow that qualified all other vows. The vow that humbled the brash young hero of the Rebellion, yet steeled him, too. Ned's steadfast, stern humility as the keeper of the vow he made Lyanna wasn't like his former humility as the second son, as I imagine it. That was deeply and uncritically acquiescent to custom and law, to received tradition, to precedent and precedence. This vow-that-begat-lies was radical, original. I'm not sure the Old Gods approved. It was the closest Ned Stark came to saying "Fuck 'em," but it wasn't "Fuck 'em," it was "Well, I love her. So."  The least typical things Ned did -- saving Jon, hiring Arya a dancing master -- were also the most authentic. He pulled them off, and both paid off, big time.  

Was Jon foolish to threaten Littlefinger?  I don't know. Could anything Jon do, change anything that Littlefinger had in mind? Baelish was bullshitting and needling from the start of their crypt chat, not trying to find common ground with Jon.  "I was sorry to see your father die," said the man who held the second-to-last blade against Ned's neck; in one of his best phony attitudes -- pseudo-magnanimous-appreciation -- he lauds Ned's love for Cat, then seems brought up short as he recalls Cat's cruelty to Jon. No matter what Jon did or said, Baelish had his plan in play: he was going to secure Sansa and the North as soon as Jon went over the first hill.

Nothing Jon did could make Baelish want that more, or act more avidly. Littlefinger remembers every slight, for sure, but Jon's very existence is a slight to him -- Ned Stark's bastard, bred on a bawd and brought home as a boorish insult to the Great Lady who'd rejected Littlefinger for the Starks. Littlefinger's great enduring love for Catelyn just looks foolish, not romantic, if Cat's husband doesn't think she has any stature worth bothering about...

I know Jon's chokehold was the third in a lifelong series of manhandlings Littlefinger received at the hands of the Starks, all prompted by their oafish dismissal of his pure love for one of "their" women (airquotes his). Littlefinger may later say that all he wanted was to love, protect and serve Sansa, and if Jon hadn't insulted him, he'd never have sold Sansa back to Cersei in exchange for rule in the North, and a marriage that once again unites the Seven Kingdoms...

All he wanted to do in the crypt was to see Jon off in a haze of insinuations, and he managed that. And all right, so Jon didn't give him the derisive satisfaction of gaining his gratitude or his trust. But in the long run, that would have dulled the sport. Better that Jon Snow be a better player than Ned Stark. That will change nothing.

[janjan]

But . .. but . .. but Sansa is still legally married to Tyrion. Even he seems to have forgotten that. Ramsay certainly did.

And speaking of forgetting, is Edmure (the legit Lord of the Riverlands) still in the Freys' dungeon? Who is feeding him?

Maybe Castle Black doesn't have any ravens. They don't have a maester, since Aemon died and Sam went off to Maester school, and the maesters do the ravens. So no news to Jon about Bran?

Betcha Sam will get kicked out of the Citadel, as soon as the Archmaester finds out that he broke the rules by cutting chunks out of Jorah. Oh well, he has served his plot purpose there by finding out about the dragonglass mountain, so that will be the end of a very expensive GoT set. Like the water gardens of Dorne and the fighting pits of Mereen. There has to be a reason why Sam has a Valarian steel sword (on the Chekov's gun theory), so expect our boy to do something heroic. And maybe even impress his father. Randyll Tarley seems to be an okay guy, in a myopic John Wayne sort of way (macho = good, all else = pfft).

[Pallas]

9 hours ago, janjan said:

But . .. but . .. but Sansa is still legally married to Tyrion. Even he seems to have forgotten that. Ramsay certainly did.

Yes, Sansa's marital state is a little murky. I think Littlefinger assured Roose that the unconsummated marriage to Tyrion was de facto annulled, and Roose was satisfied. Sansa's first marriage was by the rites of the New Gods, while her second was by the rites of the Old: as a Northerner or to a Northerner she could maintain that only the second ceremony was valid. Or that neither marriage was valid, since she was a prisoner of Ramsay and his family when she married him. And in any event -- giving praises to the Old Gods and the New -- that husband passed away. Bit by bit. 

10 hours ago, janjan said:

And speaking of forgetting, is Edmure (the legit Lord of the Riverlands) still in the Freys' dungeon? Who is feeding him?

Arya wasn't interested in yet another older male road companion, was she. She seemed very well-informed about the Red Wedding -- calling it by name, while playing Walder -- so she must be aware that her uncle was a captive there. I'm guessing Edmure's wife is feeding and/or freeing him? 

10 hours ago, janjan said:

So no news to Jon about Bran?

I wonder if Bran, hearing that Jon is now King of the North (and with Sansa, safe at Winterfell), has asked that no news be sent. By succession, Bran is Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North; he may not want to complicate Jon's position. At the same time, he may feel that as the Three-Eyed Raven, he is removed from the line of succession. We should find out soon.

 

10 hours ago, janjan said:

Betcha Sam will get kicked out of the Citadel, as soon as the Archmaester finds out that he broke the rules by cutting chunks out of Jorah

Betcha right!  Sam, Gilly, Little Sam and Jorah may make up a new traveling troupe, headed off to Dragonstone (where Sam will re-unite with Jon). Sam may even lend the Tarwell sword to Jorah. "You should have it; you'd know what to do with it. Besides, Jon's got your family's sword..."  As Jorah will shortly see. 

 

10 hours ago, janjan said:

Randyll Tarley seems to be an okay guy, in a myopic John Wayne sort of way (macho = good, all else = pfft).

It was interesting to see Randyll acting as a Lord at court, rather than a prick at the dinner table. But remember that Sam came to the Wall after Randyll gave him the choice of the joining the Night's Watch, or being hunted down like a boar out in the woods.

[Llywela]

On 26/07/2017 at 2:14 PM, ChocButterfly said:

You're so right! He was very Neddish. And the Neddishest most stupid thing he did there was choking LF. Leaving Sansa in charge didn't surprise me at all, because, first, who else can he trust? And second: "There shall always be a Stark in Winterfell".

Well, given how much Jon and Sansa had been disagreeing on critical policy, I can well imagine that anyone rather less Neddish than Jon might have looked among his allies and advisors for a deputy rather more inclined to tow the party line...but that wouldn't be Jon. That wouldn't be the Stark way. Because, as you say, there must always be a Stark in Winterfell, and for that reason alone it had to be Sansa. But Sansa herself was surprised to be left in charge, which means she didn't expect it as a given, and that's what struck me as touching. It also struck me how far Sansa has come since the early seasons, which she spent timid and afraid, a child trapped in a den of vipers. She is coming into her own now, older and more experienced, back in her own home in the bosom of friends and allies. She feels safe, or as safe as is possible in the circumstances, for the first time in years - and we can see clearly what a difference it makes in her willingness to speak out freely. But I also wonder if...well, she says she considers Jon a Stark, but while she might regard him as her equal in that sense, she certainly doesn't seem willing to kowtow to him as ruler, and I wonder if that's because she is done holding her tongue with anyone or because there is a part of her that still sees Jon as her bastard brother rather than as her king.

Another Stark thought that occurred to me was about Arya, and how much I appreciate being shown how young and vulnerable she still is, for all her face-changing, murderous ways. How I long to see her reunited with her surviving siblings, but alas her encounter with Nymeria seems more likely to set her back on her lonely path as self-imposed assassin of every name on her list. And I guess if she is really committed to completing that task, she does need to go it alone, because once she's back in the bosom of her family, she likely won't get another chance, she'll get bogged down in the politics and expectations of others. But she seems so young and vulnerable, out there all alone, survivor though she is, and so hungry for the love and companionship she's been without for so long - even if I'm not sure she'd quite know what to do with love and companionship if she had them, now.

The other main point that really jumped out at me was how screwed up the timeline is - the message sent to Jon from Dragonstone made it to Winterfell in the very next scene, arriving before the message we saw Sam send last week! And I'm almost frantic for someone at the Wall to get news to Winterfell about Bran! But I guess Bran himself might have other ideas.

Edited July 28, 2017 by Llywela

[WhiteStumbler]

On 7/27/2017 at 5:54 AM, Pallas said:

Littlefinger remembers every slight, for sure, but Jon's very existence is a slight to him -- Ned Stark's bastard, bred on a bawd and brought home as a boorish insult to the Great Lady who'd rejected Littlefinger for the Starks.

Wow, what a nice insight into the "natural" resentment LF probably has towards Jon. I never even thought of that before. How would LF feel about Jon's existence, as opposed to how Jon would further or thwart LF's schemes. Very nice insight.

 

15 hours ago, Pallas said:

Sam may even lend the Tarwell sword to Jorah.

YESSSSS!!!!!!!! Make it happen, Show!! LOVE that idea!

 

4 hours ago, Llywela said:

The other main point that really jumped out at me was how screwed up the timeline is...

It seems a little jarring at times, but one thing I am loving about last season and this season is the sense of forward momentum - things that used to take an entire season to play out happen over the course of two episodes, because the whole gang is on the same continent. Dany sends a raven to Winterfel, and Jon reads it in the next scene. Sam discovers a dragonglass mine, and news reaches the North the next episode. A battle plan is laid out, then smashed to bits within an episode. This is becoming like a nuclear reaction - atoms are squeezed closer  together, creating more and more heat and energy.

One thing I can't get my mind around after watching the "Cersei rallies the Lords of Westeros" scene again is - why is anyone there? She just killed the leading lords and ladies of Westeros who were in KL in the Wildfire Trial, and destroyed the Sept of Balor (which I imagine as being as important to followers of The Seven as St. Peter's Basilica is to Roman Catholics), she isn't even a member of the ruling House (House Baratheon died with Tommen), so why would any major House seriously consider rallying to her cause? Sure, her 'Dothrhaki and Unsullied are foreign scum' line of reasoning might keep some Houses from joining Dany (despite her dragons), but when she says "In Essos, her brutality is already legendary. She crucified hundreds of noblemen in Slaver's Bay", the rejoinder "As you killed hundreds when you blew up the Sept" seems too easy.

[supposebly]

During Cersei's speech about the evil doings of the daughter of the mad king, all I could think was Queen Pot....meet Queen Kettle.

Jamie's face almost seemed to agree with me.