Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[amandawoods]

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I think Tyrion will be in love or is already in love with Dany soon.  Linking it up to the books, maybe Tyrion going to be the person who betrays her because of love?  I'm not even sure what that would entail.  

Also, based on Arya saying that she would like to see what's west of westeros, I do think she is going to end up alive but away from her family in the end.  Also, Jamie saying that he's going to die in the arms of the woman he loves.  It has to be Jamie fighting alongside Brienne with the white walkers.  I really want Jamie and Brienne to both be involved in the fight.  

Hey this post was from two years ago!  I remember the only reason why I thought Tyrion was in love was because of the acting choices.  If this is true, I'm bummed...and confused.  

And why do the writers take out scenes that might help audience understand character motivation?  They took out a scene with Tyrion and Bronn that basically exclaimed that Tyrion was in love with her.  

[OhOkayWhat]

3 hours ago, amandawoods said:

And why do the writers take out scenes that might help audience understand character motivation? 

Maybe, I suppose, because that will not be the motivation.

[anamika]

8 hours ago, Wouter said:

Fair enough.

Even assuming Friki's leak is correct though, who would end up being the Valonqar? And what are Dany and Jon doing at Tyrion's supposed trial?

 

I think Jaime = Valonqar is the popular theory and most people are pretty sure that Cersei will meet her end at Jaime's hands.

Maybe someone could list out what exactly Friki said because I think there is a lot of confusion of what he knows happens and what he is speculating. For instance, I think Friki says that the betrayal is revealed in a scene that involves Jon, Dany, Sansa, Arya and Tyrion and hence speculates that Jon and Dany survive.

What Friki knows for certain are:

1. Tyrion's betrayal is revealed in a scene with Tyrion, Arya, Sansa, Jon and Dany

2. Tyrion dies

3. Tyrion has a trial at the dragonpit

4. Kit and Emilia did not film in Seville

Is this right? Was there anything else?

According to Boatsexbaby, there were several scenes filmed in Spain. She still maintains that what was filmed there happens in the first half of episode 6.

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I was told that the Spain filming was for KL battle and would involve Unsullied and Wildling/Dothraki extras among others. Part of this battle has already been shot in Belfast in front of the green screen.

Italica is a huge location with both the Roman Ruins and the Amphitheatre and everything was closed since May 3rd – Diagram. My current guess is the production filmed multiple scenes with different characters in different locations inside the Italica.

The Dragonpit/Amphitheatre is only one part of the Italica which is a huge location. Check out the diagram to get a comparison. The only info I ever gave about the Dragonpit was that the sequence will 'blow everyone's mind' which it will. Irrespective of whether it is what Friki leaked or something else. :)

Episode 6 is the epic finale of the Great War and the ‘dream of spring’ epilogue. The Dragonpit sequence is not in the epilogue, so yes, it is in the first part of Episode 6 which is the epic finale of the Great War / KL battle.

From what I remember, Peter Dinklage filmed the most in Seville. If I recall right, he was there with Benioff and Weiss long before the other cast members got there. The three of them were pictured having dinner or lunch there a few days before the others got there.

As an aside, it's a bit hilarious to see the outraged reaction to this leak. Apparently unpredictable and bittersweet applies only to Jon and Dany dying. Nothing else. And some folks are getting exposed to GRRM's original outline for the first time and the Jon/Arya romance is making people back off in horror ?

There's also talk of how GRRM was originally going for Dany/Jon/Arya to mimic Rhaenys/Aegon/Visenya and then dropped it with the lack of the 5 year gap.

Edited September 10, 2018 by anamika

[WindyNights]

8 hours ago, Wouter said:

Fair enough.

Even assuming Friki's leak is correct though, who would end up being the Valonqar? And what are Dany and Jon doing at Tyrion's supposed trial?

 

Potentially dead but boatbaby surviving. 

Im actually starting to think that Tyrion ends up getting Jon and Daenerys killed. 

Sansa, Bran and Arya execute Tyrion and the Stark children rule Westeros until boatbaby can take the throne. 

Hence a Time for Wolves/A Dream of Spring.

Edited September 10, 2018 by WindyNights

[nikma]

2 hours ago, anamika said:

I think Jaime = Valonqar is the popular theory and most people are pretty sure that Cersei will meet her end at Jaime's hands.

Maybe someone could list out what exactly Friki said because I think there is a lot of confusion of what he knows happens and what he is speculating. For instance, I think Friki says that the betrayal is revealed in a scene that involves Jon, Dany, Sansa, Arya and Tyrion and hence speculates that Jon and Dany survive.

What Friki knows for certain are:

1. Tyrion's betrayal is revealed in a scene with Tyrion, Arya, Sansa, Jon and Dany

2. Tyrion dies

3. Tyrion has a trial at the dragonpit

4. Kit and Emilia did not film in Seville

Is this right? Was there anything else?

According to Boatsexbaby, there were several scenes filmed in Spain. She still maintains that what was filmed there happens in the first half of episode 6.

From what I remember, Peter Dinklage filmed the most in Seville. If I recall right, he was there with Benioff and Weiss long before the other cast members got there. The three of them were pictured having dinner or lunch there a few days before the others got there.

As an aside, it's a bit hilarious to see the outraged reaction to this leak. Apparently unpredictable and bittersweet applies only to Jon and Dany dying. Nothing else. And some folks are getting exposed to GRRM's original outline for the first time and the Jon/Arya romance is making people back off in horror ?

There's also talk of how GRRM was originally going for Dany/Jon/Arya to mimic Rhaenys/Aegon/Visenya and then dropped it with the lack of the 5 year gap.

I mean she was right about Dragonpit. Maybe BoatsexBaby is legit after all.

[Happy Harpy]

2 hours ago, nikma said:

I mean she was right about Dragonpit. Maybe BoatsexBaby is legit after all.

To me, she was the most believable. This user didn't pretend to know everything, or even to have big plot spoilers per se, she had fragments of information. What she knew also fit the nature of the source she had. She just gave the tea, didn't milk it for attention, etc. If she isn't legit, she's the smartest of them all.

[OhOkayWhat]

This year it's not just that we got so few and confused spoilers...it's also the wait is twice as long!! 

Edited September 10, 2018 by OhOkayWhat

[nikma]

21 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

To me, she was the most believable. This user didn't pretend to know everything, or even to have big plot spoilers per se, she had fragments of information. What she knew also fit the nature of the source she had. She just gave the tea, didn't milk it for attention, etc. If she isn't legit, she's the smartest of them all.

And I like her info about the WW. She doesn't know anything, except that they have some motivation. And that is good to hear.

 

And if Tyrion's trial is happening during the war it makes sense why Jon and Dany are not there.

Edited September 10, 2018 by nikma

[bubble sparkly]

One other thing to consider about the filming at the dragonpit was that Emilia was apparently pretty busy promoting her Star Wars movie when they were filming there.  If she was unable to film there because of her other commitments, but Dany is supposed to be in the scene, it's possible she filmed her scenes in a studio and they will use VFX magic to "add" her to the scene.  They could have even decided to have Jon and Dany be together and slightly away from the others (maybe even on thrones?), so it doesn't look odd with just Dany by herself in a corner.  Hence, maybe that's why Kit didn't film there as well.  Or, I dunno, maybe Dany is busy giving birth or something.

I will be really surprised if Jon and Dany aren't there because they are dead.  Frankly, I don't think GRRM, HBO or D&D have the balls to kill off the 3 most popular characters lol.

[SeanC]

2 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

One other thing to consider about the filming at the dragonpit was that Emilia was apparently pretty busy promoting her Star Wars movie when they were filming there.  If she was unable to film there because of her other commitments, but Dany is supposed to be in the scene, it's possible she filmed her scenes in a studio and they will use VFX magic to "add" her to the scene.  They could have even decided to have Jon and Dany be together and slightly away from the others (maybe even on thrones?), so it doesn't look odd with just Dany by herself in a corner.  Hence, maybe that's why Kit didn't film there as well.  Or, I dunno, maybe Dany is busy giving birth or something.

The show has contractual first dibs on Clarke’s time.  If she was supposed to be in the scene, she would be there filming the scene.

[WindyNights]

4 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

One other thing to consider about the filming at the dragonpit was that Emilia was apparently pretty busy promoting her Star Wars movie when they were filming there.  If she was unable to film there because of her other commitments, but Dany is supposed to be in the scene, it's possible she filmed her scenes in a studio and they will use VFX magic to "add" her to the scene.  They could have even decided to have Jon and Dany be together and slightly away from the others (maybe even on thrones?), so it doesn't look odd with just Dany by herself in a corner.  Hence, maybe that's why Kit didn't film there as well.  Or, I dunno, maybe Dany is busy giving birth or something.

I will be really surprised if Jon and Dany aren't there because they are dead.  Frankly, I don't think GRRM, HBO or D&D have the balls to kill off the 3 most popular characters lol.

D & D and HBO don't weigh on it at all if they are following GRRM's endgame even broadly.

Does GRRM have the balls to kill off Jon and Dany? Well, he certainly turned his favorite character(along with many other people's) into a villain and is planning to kill him by the end. A lot of people in this forum didn't think GRRM had the balls to kill off Tyrion.

[Happy Harpy]

5 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

I will be really surprised if Jon and Dany aren't there because they are dead. 

Most of the cast filmed in Seville without Kit and Emilia. Kit and Emilia filmed in Iceland without most of the cast.  There might be some twos to add here.

I've always thought that D&D planned to shoot those particular outdoor scenes (if they could) precisely while Emilia was doing the Starwars promo. They know that people scrutinize filming and it allowed to throw people off. It worked, because the handful of "Dany dies" before became a choir afterwards.

28 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

D & D and HBO don't weigh on it at all if they are following GRRM's endgame even broadly.

Does GRRM have the balls to kill off Jon and Dany? Well, he certainly turned his favorite character(along with many other people's) into a villain and is planning to kill him by the end. A lot of people in this forum didn't think GRRM had the balls to kill off Tyrion.

Bittersweet card!

I don't think it's a word he would have used if he intended to kill off more than one of his or fan favorite. (Again, if Tyrion does die).

[nikma]

A lot of characters will die in the last season. Maybe even majority. Tyrion, Jaime, Cersei, Podrick, Sandor, Varys, Theon, Euron, Gregor, Qyburn, Beric, Tormund,.. Maybe even dragons, direwolves, Jorah, Edd,..

 

You don't need to kill Dany or Jon to create bittetsweet feeling. A lot of popular characters will die. Winterfell will burn, KL as well. 

Edited September 10, 2018 by nikma

[WindyNights]

2 hours ago, nikma said:

A lot of characters will die in the last season. Maybe even majority. Tyrion, Jaime, Cersei, Podrick, Sandor, Varys, Theon, Euron, Gregor, Qyburn, Beric, Tormund,.. Maybe even dragons, direwolves, Jorah, Edd,..

 

You don't need to kill Dany or Jon to create bittetsweet feeling. A lot of popular characters will die. Winterfell will burn, KL as well. 

 

3 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

Most of the cast filmed in Seville without Kit and Emilia. Kit and Emilia filmed in Iceland without most of the cast.  There might be some twos to add here.

I've always thought that D&D planned to shoot those particular outdoor scenes (if they could) precisely while Emilia was doing the Starwars promo. They know that people scrutinize filming and it allowed to throw people off. It worked, because the handful of "Dany dies" before became a choir afterwards.

Bittersweet card!

I don't think it's a word he would have used if he intended to kill off more than one of his or fan favorite. (Again, if Tyrion does die).

 

GRRM's ideas of bittersweet hits a broad range. All that's necessary is that there is sweet with bitter not that there is an equal amount of both.

One thing to notice though is that House Lannister/Lancaster is going extinct. 

House Stark/York will continue on in the female line. 

So what will happen to House Targaryen/Plantagenet?

In history, House Plantagenet went extinct.

[nikma]

Since I love dark endings I would love Jon to die as well, but I don't expect it.

[Happy Harpy]

1 hour ago, WindyNights said:

GRRM's ideas of bittersweet hits a broad range. All that's necessary is that there is sweet with bitter not that there is an equal amount of both.

One thing to notice though is that House Lannister/Lancaster is going extinct. 

House Stark/York will continue on in the female line. 

So what will happen to House Targaryen/Plantagenet?

In history, House Plantagenet went extinct.

As @nikma remarked above, another big "good guy" or fan favorite dying would make the ending dark and not bittersweet, imo.

And, extinct? *looks at family tree* Er, I don't think so :D

[SeanC]

3 hours ago, WindyNights said:

GRRM's ideas of bittersweet hits a broad range. All that's necessary is that there is sweet with bitter not that there is an equal amount of both.

One thing to notice though is that House Lannister/Lancaster is going extinct. 

House Stark/York will continue on in the female line. 

So what will happen to House Targaryen/Plantagenet?

In history, House Plantagenet went extinct.

The House of Plantagenet was the larger dynasty that both the Yorks and Lancasters were part of, not a separate house.

Trying to determine the outcomes of the story based on some rather arbitrary comparisons also falls short because there's no Tudor analogue in your version.  Indeed, the closest parallel to the Tudors arguably is the Targaryens, insofar as Dany is a claimant in exile who is invading to assert her claim.

[Stella]

19 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Trying to determine the outcomes of the story based on some rather arbitrary comparisons also falls short because there's no Tudor analogue in your version.  Indeed, the closest parallel to the Tudors arguably is the Targaryens, insofar as Dany is a claimant in exile who is invading to assert her claim.

I agree that there's no Tudor analog but disagree that Dany is the closest parallel. Yes she is the claimant in exile so that fits. But Henry VII 'started' the new Tudor line when he married Elizabeth of York. She actually had the better claim as the eldest daughter of Edward IV I believe. It is all rather confusing and none of it is a perfect fit or meant to be I think, but it was the joining of Henry VII (Lancaster support) and Elizabeth of York that more or less brought the end of the feud and formed the new Tudor line.

[GraceK]

14 minutes ago, Stella said:

agree that there's no Tudor analog but disagree that Dany is the closest parallel

Didn’t George R Martin say that Dany was a Henry Tudor archetype? I think on the season 3 or 4 blu Ray, History Behind Game of thrones or somewhere .

edited to add:: if you listen to him speak, he based his story loosely on events inspired by Wars of the Roses, but he also took inspiration from other events in history and switched things around.  So trying to make a endgame based on historical facts is like throwing a bee at a dartboard. 

Edited September 10, 2018 by GraceK

[SimoneS]

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Episode 6 is the epic finale of the Great War and the ‘dream of spring’ epilogue. The Dragonpit sequence is not in the epilogue, so yes, it is in the first part of Episode 6 which is the epic finale of the Great War / KL battle.

If Boatsexbaby's info above is correct, is there really time for a trial for Tyrion? I am struggling to believe that Martin went so far off the ending of his original outline where he identified the five main characters (Dany, Jon, Arya, Bran, and Tyrion) that will survive. 

[anamika]

9 hours ago, WindyNights said:

D & D and HBO don't weigh on it at all if they are following GRRM's endgame even broadly.

Does GRRM have the balls to kill off Jon and Dany? Well, he certainly turned his favorite character(along with many other people's) into a villain and is planning to kill him by the end. A lot of people in this forum didn't think GRRM had the balls to kill off Tyrion.

So who has GRRM written as a leader who can take over and rebuild Westeros if Jon, Dany and Tyrion die? Or Jon and Dany go away?

5 hours ago, WindyNights said:

House Stark/York will continue on in the female line.

We don't know if this will happen in the books. GRRM has stated that the show has killed characters in the show that will remain alive in the books. Rickon was very obviously created as the spare Stark to continue the Stark line considering what GRRM was planning to do with Robb and Bran. In the books I could see Bran taking over as Lord/Warden of Winterfell with Rickon as his heir and the Starks will continue down the male line. There is no reason to kill off Rickon in the books.

5 hours ago, WindyNights said:

One thing to notice though is that House Lannister/Lancaster is going extinct.

In the books, only Tywin's line will be going extinct. There are still plenty of other Lannisters available. And I see that very fitting for Tywin and his brood.

Many of the houses like the Tyrells and Martells will continue to stick around in the books unlike in the show. The only house in danger of extinction are the Baratheons who will likely legitimize all of Bobby B's bastards to solve that problem.

5 hours ago, WindyNights said:

So what will happen to House Targaryen/Plantagenet?

They will continue. Even if Jon/Dany die or run away there will be a child.

1 hour ago, Stella said:

I agree that there's no Tudor analog but disagree that Dany is the closest parallel. Yes she is the claimant in exile so that fits. But Henry VII 'started' the new Tudor line when he married Elizabeth of York. She actually had the better claim as the eldest daughter of Edward IV I believe. It is all rather confusing and none of it is a perfect fit or meant to be I think, but it was the joining of Henry VII (Lancaster support) and Elizabeth of York that more or less brought the end of the feud and formed the new Tudor line.

Well we have something similar here, where Jon has the better claim to the Iron Throne than Dany and has Stark blood and by marrying him, the exiled Dany solidifies her reign on the Iron Throne, unifies Stark and Targaryen/North and South and ends any disagreements.  Here Jon is the Elizabeth of York equivalent to Dany's Henry Tudor. Dany has the red dragon sigils similar to Henry and Jon is associated with white wolfs, snow and white weir trees.

Reddit also had this from their photoshoot which I am not sure if we are supposed to associate with any spoilers, but here it is:

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, SimoneS said:

If Boatsexbaby's info above is correct, is there really time for a trial for Tyrion? I am struggling to believe that Martin went so far off the ending of his original outline where he identified the five main characters (Dany, Jon, Arya, Bran, and Tyrion) that will survive. 

Well, we already know that he has departed significantly from that outline in respect of the original five with the Jon/Dany romance taking the place of the original Jon/Arya one, and the related presumptively huge changes to Arya's whole character.

1 hour ago, anamika said:

There is no reason to kill off Rickon in the books.

There could be any number of reasons for it, including to create a plot twist regarding people's expectations for the succession.

Quote

Reddit also had this from their photoshoot which I am not sure if we are supposed to associate with any spoilers, but here it is:

There's nothing spoiler-related in that.  That was a TIME Magazine shoot that was entirely in keeping with the photographer's normal aesthetic.

3 hours ago, Stella said:

I agree that there's no Tudor analog but disagree that Dany is the closest parallel. Yes she is the claimant in exile so that fits. But Henry VII 'started' the new Tudor line when he married Elizabeth of York. She actually had the better claim as the eldest daughter of Edward IV I believe. It is all rather confusing and none of it is a perfect fit or meant to be I think, but it was the joining of Henry VII (Lancaster support) and Elizabeth of York that more or less brought the end of the feud and formed the new Tudor line.

Henry claimed the throne through his mother, a descendant of one of Henry IV's half-brothers, not via Elizabeth, though marrying her very neatly tied off the competing claim.

[GraceK]

46 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Henry claimed the throne through his mother, a descendant of one of Henry IV's half-brothers, not via Elizabeth, though marrying her very neatly tied off the competing claim.

Wasn’t Henry Tudor a Lancastrian descendent through his mother?  So marrying Elizabeth of York united the white rose of York  And the red rose of Lancaster ? That’s what your saying right?

and made his own Tudor rose out of that combination 

Edited September 11, 2018 by GraceK

[anamika]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

Well, we already know that he has departed significantly from that outline in respect of the original five with the Jon/Dany romance taking the place of the original Jon/Arya one, and the related presumptively huge changes to Arya's whole character.

What are these related huge changes to Arya's whole character? She is still the central female character in the books,  she and Jon still love each other dearly, she still has needle and she is probably getting a Valyrian steel dagger with which she will be killing the Others. Other than her falling romantically for Jon, everything else is the same as the outline as far as I can see.

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

There could be any number of reasons for it, including to create a plot twist regarding people's expectations for the succession.

There are 4 stark contenders for the North and I don't think GRRM is going to kill off Rickon for the plot twist. I don't think the character is going to have much significance other than carrying forward the Stark line and being the heir to whomever takes over in the North.

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

There's nothing spoiler-related in that.  That was a TIME Magazine shoot that was entirely in keeping with the photographer's normal aesthetic.

Not saying that there are spoilers there, but why is the photographer's normal aesthetic to have a red rose for Emilia and a white one for Kit?

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

Henry claimed the throne through his mother, a descendant of one of Henry IV's half-brothers, not via Elizabeth, though marrying her very neatly tied off the competing claim.

And Dany is claiming the throne through her father. And well,  we are not looking for a one to one similarity here are we? If that were so, Dany would be starting an entirely new house as @WindyNights mentioned. Instead if Dany and Jon married, it would be the continuation of the Targaryens. I am saying that Dany and Jon marrying would be the closest equivalent to Henry and Elizabeth marrying in the GOT universe.

Edited September 11, 2018 by anamika

[nikma]

Rickon in an extra. I don't think he will rule the North in the end. It will be Sansa.

[OhOkayWhat]

31 minutes ago, nikma said:

It will be Sansa.

Agree. It will be Sansa Stark.

[SeanC]

8 hours ago, anamika said:

What are these related huge changes to Arya's whole character? She is still the central female character in the books,  she and Jon still love each other dearly, she still has needle and she is probably getting a Valyrian steel dagger with which she will be killing the Others. Other than her falling romantically for Jon, everything else is the same as the outline as far as I can see.

Not falling romantically for Jon is a huge change, because from the sound of it that was the central conflict in her arc, alongside the romantic triangle (of sorts) with Tyrion (which was more like him being jealous, from the sound of it) that has either been scrapped entirely or, if you believe Friki, effectively that whole role was transferred to Dany.  Whatever ur-Arya's endgame was would have related to the outcome of the love triangle.  There also were no Faceless Men in the original story, which is a big part of both Arya's powerset and her personal struggle for definition. 

All of which is to say that GRRM has already, based on what we know, made huge changes to his original outline's character arcs and endgames.

[anamika]

31 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Not falling romantically for Jon is a huge change, because from the sound of it that was the central conflict in her arc, alongside the romantic triangle (of sorts) with Tyrion (which was more like him being jealous, from the sound of it) that has either been scrapped entirely or, if you believe Friki, effectively that whole role was transferred to Dany.  Whatever ur-Arya's endgame was would have related to the outcome of the love triangle.  There also were no Faceless Men in the original story, which is a big part of both Arya's powerset and her personal struggle for definition.

We don't know what happens after Dany gets there and Jon and Dany meet or how any of their stories end in the outline. Arya can still continue to be the same character with the same ending even with the love triangle taken out if her ending has nothing to do with Jon at the end of it all and she is actively involved against Tyrion : Ex: Jon/Dany die and Arya takes out Tyrion and gets KL. Until we know how the books/show ends, I don't think we can predict how much Arya is changed from the outline. GRRM seems more resigned about a 12 year old conquering the world than a romance with the loss of the 5 year gap.

As for Arya and the FM - of course that was an expansion of her plot. Instead of going directly to the wall, she took a detour to Braavos to pick up some more skills. As previously indicated Varys description of a ruler now fits Arya to a tee with all the extra adventures.

I do think that even with the Jon/Dany/Tyrion love triangle and Tyrion's betrayal, it's Jon, Arya and Tyrion who will have major conflicts and duke it out towards the end. Kit, Maisie and Peter seem to have filmed the most.  I think GRRM is very certain of where the journey of these three characters take them and he has not changed that.

The salient features in that outline keeps happening - including apparently Tyrion's deadly rivalry with Jon Snow. What happen after that and the aftermath of this rivalry we don't know.

[MarySNJ]

9 hours ago, anamika said:

What are these related huge changes to Arya's whole character? She is still the central female character in the books,  she and Jon still love each other dearly, she still has needle and she is probably getting a Valyrian steel dagger with which she will be killing the Others. Other than her falling romantically for Jon, everything else is the same as the outline as far as I can see.

There are 4 stark contenders for the North and I don't think GRRM is going to kill off Rickon for the plot twist. I don't think the character is going to have much significance other than carrying forward the Stark line and being the heir to whomever takes over in the North.

Not saying that there are spoilers there, but why is the photographer's normal aesthetic to have a red rose for Emilia and a white one for Kit?

And Dany is claiming the throne through her father. And well,  we are not looking for a one to one similarity here are we? If that were so, Dany would be starting an entirely new house as @WindyNights mentioned. Instead if Dany and Jon married, it would be the continuation of the Targaryens. I am saying that Dany and Jon marrying would be the closest equivalent to Henry and Elizabeth marrying in the GOT universe.

Dany claims the throne through her father...and her mother. There’s no real world analog to that level of incest, but in the Westerosi patriarchal society considers descent from the father only. In any case, I agree that Dany is the Henry Tudor in this situation due to her being the claimant in exile, and Jon is the Elizabeth who argably has a superior claim to the throne and through marriage will resolve the conflict about who should rule.

All that said, I speculate (or hope) that there won’t be an Iron Throne when the series ends, Dany and Jon will rule jointly like in the reign of William and Mary, with a newly established bill of rights and permanent grand council made up of Westerosi nobles and perhaps elected commoners. 

[bubble sparkly]

If Tyrion is up to no good in season 8, it makes sense that Arya would be the most suspicious of him.  Dany trusts him more than the Starks since he's her hand, but both Jon and Sansa seem to like Tyrion and trust him to some degree ("he's not like the other Lannisters" etc.).  Plus, Arya can use her faceless man lie detector skills to sniff out any deceptions he might be perpetrating.

I also wonder if Sansa will be the one to suggest that Jon and Dany marry in s8, possibly after the parentage reveal.  D&D conspicuously refrained from having any of Jon, Dany, Davos, Tyrion or Varys etc. consider a J/D marriage alliance in s7, even though Dany came to Westeros looking for a man to marry and Jon was trying get her help without bending the knee.  Yet, for no real reason they had Littlefinger, who hasn't even met Dany, tell Sansa that Jon probably wants to marry her.

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

I also wonder if Sansa will be the one to suggest that Jon and Dany marry in s8, possibly after the parentage reveal.  D&D conspicuously refrained from having any of Jon, Dany, Davos, Tyrion or Varys etc. consider a J/D marriage alliance in s7, even though Dany came to Westeros looking for a man to marry and Jon was trying get her help without bending the knee.  Yet, for no real reason they had Littlefinger, who hasn't even met Dany, tell Sansa that Jon probably wants to marry her.

Oh, I think this is a given, LF doesn't need to meet Danny to know that a woman with WMD, and a leader that inspires people would make a very powerful force.

LF problem is he doesn't know the north, so Sansa will more likely propose it to force the north to follow and fight.

[Wouter]

4 hours ago, SeanC said:

Not falling romantically for Jon is a huge change, because from the sound of it that was the central conflict in her arc, alongside the romantic triangle (of sorts) with Tyrion (which was more like him being jealous, from the sound of it) that has either been scrapped entirely or, if you believe Friki, effectively that whole role was transferred to Dany.

Sean, what do you think is the probability that Friki's recent leak is accurate (leaving aside possible issues with interpretation by Friki)?

It does seem that the claims of Boatsexbaby (dragonpit scene would be in early S6 while "the great war" supposedly is still going on), of Friki and the actors sightings (Kit, actors for the Faceless men) don't add up entirely.

[nikma]

32 minutes ago, Wouter said:

 

It does seem that the claims of Boatsexbaby (dragonpit scene would be in early S6 while "the great war" supposedly is still going on), of Friki and the actors sightings (Kit, actors for the Faceless men) don't add up entirely.

Why not? BSB said it will be scene that will "blow our minds". And Tyrion's death is that scene. And Friki said Dany and Jon won't be there, so it seems that Tyrion's death will happen in the middle of war.

[Wouter]

1 hour ago, nikma said:

Why not? BSB said it will be scene that will "blow our minds". And Tyrion's death is that scene. And Friki said Dany and Jon won't be there, so it seems that Tyrion's death will happen in the middle of war.

Holding a grand trial right at the climax of the great war (with KL being attacked!) doesn't seem likely. Especially not if the NK is the one attacking KL.

If it is Dany attacking KL held by Euron/Cersei, she is apparently on course to burn it (due to filming spoilers). I was under the impression most here think the NK will invade KL and the burning will in response to that. Under those circumstances, they can hardly hold a full on trial right outside the city.

If Tyrion has already been outed as a traitor at that point, him being condemned and executed would also hardly be mindblowing.

Edited September 11, 2018 by Wouter

[WindyNights]

20 hours ago, SeanC said:

The House of Plantagenet was the larger dynasty that both the Yorks and Lancasters were part of, not a separate house.

Trying to determine the outcomes of the story based on some rather arbitrary comparisons also falls short because there's no Tudor analogue in your version.  Indeed, the closest parallel to the Tudors arguably is the Targaryens, insofar as Dany is a claimant in exile who is invading to assert her claim.

Eh, no really. Daenerys is based on various Stuart princesses according to GRRM.

The Tudors don't have anything in common with the Targaryens. Houses Normandy and Plantagenet have a lot in common with House Targaryen on the other hand.

[shireenbamfatheon]

5 hours ago, Wouter said:

Holding a grand trial right at the climax of the great war (with KL being attacked!) doesn't seem likely. Especially not if the NK is the one attacking KL.

If it is Dany attacking KL held by Euron/Cersei, she is apparently on course to burn it (due to filming spoilers). I was under the impression most here think the NK will invade KL and the burning will in response to that. Under those circumstances, they can hardly hold a full on trial right outside the city.

If Tyrion has already been outed as a traitor at that point, him being condemned and executed would also hardly be mindblowing.

 

1

Also seems highly strange that the two people he supposedly betrays won't even attend his trial but are there for the reveal. From a narrative or emotional standpoint, it makes no sense,. But just because it doesn't make sense doesn't mean it won't happen. The writing's been too inconsistent to predict the outcome. Tyrion's heel-turn could explain NCW's comment about people considered heroes actually being villains and vice versa, but he also said it won't be a "TA-DA" kind of season where someone's revealed as the killer last season without any build up.... Soooo I'm back to being confused. 

Edited September 12, 2018 by shireenbamfatheon

[WindyNights]

20 hours ago, GraceK said:

Didn’t George R Martin say that Dany was a Henry Tudor archetype? I think on the season 3 or 4 blu Ray, History Behind Game of thrones or somewhere .

edited to add:: if you listen to him speak, he based his story loosely on events inspired by Wars of the Roses, but he also took inspiration from other events in history and switched things around.  So trying to make a endgame based on historical facts is like throwing a bee at a dartboard. 

I don't think he has. The only time I remember him comparing her to historical figures was when he said she was based off of various Stuart princess. 

Henry Tudor didn't actually have a real claim to the throne of England. He had a better claim to the French throne than the English throne. 

Henry was descended from a legitimized but disinherited bastard branch of the Lancastrians. The closest analogue to that would be "Aegon" but even that's not perfect.

And the only person that GRRM has compared Henry VII to is Stannis by insulting Henry VII and praising Stannis for being righteous in comparison.

[Colorful Mess]

If previous Hand/King relations are anything to go by, I think Dany/Tyrion are both dead. I sense a doomed Hand/King thing going on like Tywin/Aerys, Tywin/Joff, and Ned/Robert. The show started with the death of a Hand and it could end with one. An exception is Stannis/Davos - although Davos could still die later. If Davos doesn't survive or he quits politics I think the show/books have been dropping a lot of hints for Jaime as the new ruler's Hand. The jokes would be so on point. 

[SeanC]

3 hours ago, Wouter said:

Sean, what do you think is the probability that Friki's recent leak is accurate (leaving aside possible issues with interpretation by Friki)?

I have no real way of gauging how accurate Friki's sources are.  Friki himself is no doubt sincere.  And I've long since stopped trying to assess prospective GOT leaks based on narrative plausibility/character consistency arguments, because the show has repeatedly had leaks that seemed really stupid but which were nevertheless true.

[Happy Harpy]

7 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

If Tyrion is up to no good in season 8, it makes sense that Arya would be the most suspicious of him.

Arya's first words on the show: "Where's the Imp?". Dun, dun, dun. Will Tyrion die by Catspaw, false proof of a crime he didn't commit, for a crime he committed?

Arya and Ghost should be the most suspicious of Tyrion. *Arya and Ghost Sleuthing 2019 campaign now opened*

Also, still in need of a traileeeeeer !

[nikma]

2 hours ago, Wouter said:

it is Dany attacking KL held by Euron/Cersei, she is apparently on course to burn it (due to filming spoilers).

BoatsexBaby said it was Night King who burns KL, not Dany.

 

2 hours ago, Wouter said:

Tyrion has already been outed as a traitor at that point, him being condemned and executed would also hardly be mindblowing.

Tyrion will be outed in E6, not before. 

2 hours ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

2 hours ago, Wouter said:

 

Also seems highly strange that the two people he supposedly betrays won't even attend his trial but are there for the reveal. From a thematic or emotional standpoint, it makes no sense

Friki said he betrays the Starks, not Dany.

2 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

If previous Hand/King relations are anything to go by, I think Dany/Tyrion are both dead. I sense a doomed Hand/King thing going on like Tywin/Aerys, Tywin/Joff, and Ned/Robert

And Tommen/Kevan 

[GrailKing]

So if Tyrion kills Sansa either purposely or accidentally is it bitter or bittersweet adding his death,

How about another scenario I saw don't necessarily believe ; Sansa is killed by Cersei and is hung up for viewing.

Two characters with lots of support meeting bitter ends. 

[Sunshinegal]

9 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

So if Tyrion kills Sansa either purposely or accidentally is it bitter or bittersweet adding his death,

How about another scenario I saw don't necessarily believe ; Sansa is killed by Cersei and is hung up for viewing.

Two characters with lots of support meeting bitter ends. 

 

I don't know about Tyrion's fate one way or another.  I think that Sansa/Arya/Bran are 100% safe. 

[WindyNights]

1 hour ago, GrailKing said:

So if Tyrion kills Sansa either purposely or accidentally is it bitter or bittersweet adding his death,

How about another scenario I saw don't necessarily believe ; Sansa is killed by Cersei and is hung up for viewing.

Two characters with lots of support meeting bitter ends. 

Sansa is in the room when Tyrion's betrayal is revealed and she's there at his trial. Why do people want to kill off Sansa so badly? lol

 

The 3 Starks kids are safe. 

Edited September 11, 2018 by WindyNights

[GraceK]

28 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

revealed and she's there at his trial. Why do people want to kill off Sansa so badly? lol

Seriously I dont even care for her much and I don’t want to see her dead and hung out to dry ? that’s horrific 

Edited September 11, 2018 by GraceK

[shireenbamfatheon]

2 hours ago, nikma said:

BoatsexBaby said it was Night King who burns KL, not Dany.

 

Tyrion will be outed in E6, not before. 

Friki said he betrays the Starks, not Dany.

And Tommen/Kevan 

Oh I don't know how I missed that, though it's going to be a bit difficult to betray the Starks without betraying Dany given their alliance.

[anamika]

Just to be clear, these are Friki's leaks:

Quote

The reveal of his treason will be a long scene with 5 characters: Jon, Arya, Sansa, Daenerys and Tyrion

His trial will be held at the Dragonpit

Tyrion will be executed for treason, in which way is still unknown

Kit Harington did not film in Sevilla at all

Emilia Clarke was never in Sevilla at all

Remember, he says that Tyrion's betrayal is revealed in a scene featuring Jon, Arya, Sansa, Dany and Tyrion. This does not confirm that these characters are alive and Friki does not know. Sansa could be in a flashback with respect to something Tyrion did. From here Friki is only speculating that Jon and Dany maybe alive. He does not know if Sansa lives or dies but has heard rumors of some red headed character dying.

As far as I know, Friki has not mentioned as a confirmed leak that Tyrion betrays the Starks nor who is at Tyrion's trial or where he will be executed. There are different interpretations of what he said:

Supes17:

Quote

Tyrion Lannister’s treason will be revealed in a scene featuring Jon, Arya, Sansa, Daenerys, and Tyrion himself. The scene will most likely be presented as a montage intercutting with the trial, similar to the Jon= Aegon revelation and epicc boat sex scene.

Tyrion’s trial and execution will be the biggest/most shocking scene in the episode. He’s heard rumors of a major character being killed by dragon fire and thinks it lines up with Tyrion’s execution but clarifies that it’s a speculation and that he hasn’t confirmed this.

Has heard rumors of Sansa’s death but it is not confirmed and shouldn’t be taken as fact. He says that it’s a very delicate topic as she’s a major character and won’t say anything until he confirms what her fate will be.

Tyrion’s betrayal shouldn’t lead to Jon and or Daenerys’ death because his treason will be revealed in a scene they all share.

Notice how he thinks that Jon/Dany should live because they are in the betrayal scene, but does not seem to be so sure of Sansa even though she is also in that scene... Not sure why this is.

Another Spanish poster (jvlealc) interpreted his leaks this way:

Quote

To clarify. Mi friend literally wrote:

"a José solo le han confirmado:

- en Pozo Dragón hay juicio a Tyrion

- la resolución/condena/descubrimiento, la escena más importante, tiene lugar en PD pero no se rodó en Sevilla sino Belfast. Y tiene a Arya, Sansa, Dany, Jon y Tyrion como protas

Y no sabemos nada de eso. lo demás es especulación"

"They have confirmed José:

-In the dragonpit there's a trial to Tyrion

-The resolution/execution/discovery, the most important scene, takes place in the Dragonpit, but it was filmed in Belfast. And it has Arya, Sansa, Dany, Jon and Tyrion as protagonists"

And we don't know anything about that. Everything else is speculation"

From this the user speculates that everything happens in the dragonpit. And also the scene taking place in the dragonpit was filmed in Belfast - so Jon/Dany will be present for his trial.

So it's all a confusing mess. The only thing that I think we can take from Friki is that Tyrion has a trial and dies because he is executed.

Edited September 12, 2018 by anamika

[SeanC]

21 minutes ago, anamika said:

Sansa could be in a flashback with respect to something Tyrion did.

 

She wouldn't be filming in the Dragonpit if she wasn't actually there.  The show doesn't do visions as part of a real-world scene, etc.  If she's in the scene, she's alive at that point.

Edited September 12, 2018 by SeanC

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Sansa is in the room when Tyrion's betrayal is revealed and she's there at his trial. Why do people want to kill off Sansa so badly? lol

 

The 3 Starks kids are safe. 

Isn't there wildfire under the DP ?

Could something ignite it (quite unstable )?

We don't know the aftermath.

[anamika]

35 minutes ago, SeanC said:

She wouldn't be filming in the Dragonpit if she wasn't actually there.  The show doesn't do visions as part of a real-world scene, etc.  If she's in the scene, she's alive.

Once again,

Quote

I was told that the Spain filming was for KL battle and would involve Unsullied and Wildling/Dothraki extras among others. Part of this battle has already been shot in Belfast in front of the green screen.

Italica is a huge location with both the Roman Ruins and the Amphitheatre and everything was closed since May 3rd – Diagram. My current guess is the production filmed multiple scenes with different characters in different locations inside the Italica.

https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/9e2hg9/dragonpit_was_supposed_to_feature_an_action_scene/e5lqecu/?context=2

Filming in the Dragonpit is not some surety that any character is alive. Multiple scenes could have been filmed with characters. BoatsexBaby claimed that Sophie, Gwen, Peter and Lino filmed some action scenes with body doubles. People were so sure that Tyrion would survive because Peter filmed in the Dragonpit and that Jon/Dany maybe dead because Kit/Emilia did not and now that's being debated.

12 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

If Tyrion is up to no good in season 8, it makes sense that Arya would be the most suspicious of him.  Dany trusts him more than the Starks since he's her hand, but both Jon and Sansa seem to like Tyrion and trust him to some degree ("he's not like the other Lannisters" etc.).  Plus, Arya can use her faceless man lie detector skills to sniff out any deceptions he might be perpetrating.

It will be a very interesting dynamic to watch considering these are two characters who have never interacted on screen and how Arya was the Stark who was most interested to meet him in episode one - 'Where's the imp?'! And considering their eventual rivalry in the outline, I would think that we will be seeing some of that next season.

12 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

I also wonder if Sansa will be the one to suggest that Jon and Dany marry in s8, possibly after the parentage reveal.  D&D conspicuously refrained from having any of Jon, Dany, Davos, Tyrion or Varys etc. consider a J/D marriage alliance in s7, even though Dany came to Westeros looking for a man to marry and Jon was trying get her help without bending the knee.  Yet, for no real reason they had Littlefinger, who hasn't even met Dany, tell Sansa that Jon probably wants to marry her.

According to a leak I posted a few pages back, that's pretty much what happens. I think Craic_Chancer has a high chance of being legitimate:

Quote

At the discontent of the northern lords, Sansa suggests a marriage between Jon and Daenerys. Tyrion is against this. Why?

"Official" reason, Jon has already bent the knee. He (Tyrion) wants her to save that card in case she needs it for another kingdom.

"Actual" reason, the lads a bit jealous.

https://www.reddit.com/user/Craic_Chancer

Edited September 12, 2018 by anamika