Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[Colorful Mess]

22 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

The writers didn't include the whole 'break the wheel' declaration (more than once) for no reason - they're foreshadowing that there'll be something different from what's gone before once the war is over, no matter who wins.

Ok I'm confused now. "Break the wheel" is a Dany propaganda slogan. Are you saying that the Night King is the one going to break the wheel, even though it's been a Dany thing since S4? This line of thinking could easily lead into Dany/Night King parallels: who is going to break Westeros harder, ice or fire.

I don't think Jon is going to die btw, so this is probably why I differ from other folks on my thinking about the endgame.

Edited September 3, 2018 by Colorful Mess

[Meredith Quill]

32 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

R+L=J is a semantic detail? Who controls the North - semantics? Sorry I just cant agree with that.

You're attributing my comment to things I never specified but if you want specifics:

• Whether Sansa will be elected to rule the North. Whether Sansa would be a capable leader. Whether Sansa would be in her rights to take the North from Jon. Frankly, once the AOTD arrives, them arguing over such matters would very much be a semantic detail at that point. Not to mention that with Bran & the weirwood.net at their disposal it would be especially idiotic of them to be arguing over this stuff.
• Whether Dany will expect knees bending before she helps. (She already specifically stated that she's going there to help, not conquer, also she dropped the whole 'bend the knee and I will help' schtick and declared she would fight the NK after he killed Viserion and she saw how big the threat truly was).
• Who deserves what based on the character traits and past actions, the story will do what the writers want it to do regardless of what any of us think should happen.

32 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

If its just one long humans vs. zombies battle, it should be even shorter. Like 3 episodes max:

• Episode 1: Reunions,
• Episode 2: 60 minutes of fighting, 
• Episode 3: Aftermath. 

But since we have 3 EXTRA episodes I don't think I'm crazy to expect the series title to come back up again. I do think one of the major themes of the series is when you play the game of thrones, you win or you die. Seasons 1-7 has involved Starks learning lessons about survival, how to balance honor and dishonor, how to be smarter in a world where everyone wants them dead. They must play for their survival and they must also play smarter to survive. If they don't get to apply what they've learned...what does it matter?

But it isn't 3 episodes, it's 6. Regardless of what it could or should be that's what it is. Yes, one of the major themes was when you play the game of thrones you win or you die - one of the major themes. The other being the futility of playing the game of thrones when a supernatural threat is about to ass fuck you but you're too busy playing the game to stop and give a shit about the looming threat. Hence, ice zombies matter and are kinda a big deal. Ergo, we've spent the majority of 7 of 8 seasons watching them playing the game of thrones already, now we get to witness them deal with the ice zombies that are knocking at the door. The only game of thrones left to play is removing Cersei from power, that's where the Starks hard-learned-lessons will come into play after TWFTD is won. 

12 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

Ok I'm confused now. "Break the wheel" is a Dany propaganda slogan. Are you saying that the Night King is the one going to break the wheel, even though it's been a Dany thing since S4? This line of thinking could easily lead into Dany/Night King parallels: who is going to break Westeros harder, ice or fire.

I don't think Jon is going to die btw, so this is probably why I differ from other folks on my thinking about the endgame.

 

The line was spoken by Dany yes, which Varys also kinda touched upon with his "I serve the people" speech. It's too strong of a (repeated) idea not to be some kind of foreshadowing for once the war is done. And if the NK won? Oh yes, he would very much break the wheel lol - and everything else. 

[OhOkayWhat]

28 minutes ago, GraceK said:

You make very good points .?

Thank you ?. But seriously, where is Ser Pounce??... I want the 2 dragons, the 2 direwolves and Ser Pounce team up! (Ser pounce, obviously, will be the leader)

[GraceK]

11 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

Thank you ?. But seriously, where is Ser Pounce??... I want the 2 dragons, the 2 direwolves and Ser Pounce team up! (Ser pounce, obviously, will be the leader)

Ser pounce is cuddling with Ghost ?

[Colorful Mess]

47 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

But it isn't 3 episodes, it's 6. Regardless of what it could or should be that's what it is.

All I'm saying is that R+L=J and who controls the North (because it is effectively leaderless) will matter to the plot earlier, around Episode 3-4, and thus will have a significant impact on allegiances and who people follow into battle going forward. But if I have to adhere to this timeline you propose, the fighting against the AOTD will last for 5-6 episodes with non-stop CGI, heroic acrobatics, and last minute saves without anyone stopping to think about what leaders they want to follow during a crisis.

So now on, I won't bring up Sansa as key to the North or Jon's shocking revelation that has political and personal significance for almost everyone in the story. It will just have to be pushed off to the very end or not come up again at all. I will switch my S8 speculation to everything zombie-related + aftermath:

How many wights do you think Tormund is gonna kill?

Does anyone think we'll have a zombie direwolf??

Which of the Northern Lords dies in the battle?

Who is Jon going to stab to save the world?

Will the Dothraki get winter coats?

What will happen to Sansa? She started as Lady of Winterfell in S6. Does she end up in exactly the same position?

OH my bad. Sansa could die. So this point is moot.

Pod on the throne? After all this wheel breaking, maybe Westeros decides to elect their rulers based on dick size?

Edited September 3, 2018 by Colorful Mess

[Wouter]

1 hour ago, glowbug said:

https://ew.com/article/2016/08/12/game-thrones-jon-snow-daenerys-campaign-ads/amp/

Sorry, couldn’t resist. ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao4HVlV7wZU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yzw2ZiMt3y4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6r9CdNenuk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=CkyF9h4j_ZM

Those are even better for the Westeros 2019 campaign!

[Colorful Mess]

2 hours ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

I would love this scenario where people start giving in to despair and have to fight like hell to persevere instead of constant battles with no exploration of the mental toll the Long Night is taking on people's mental states during the war. Old Nan's story about the Long Night was so terrifying and I would love the show to become a full-out horror series instead of purely action. People killing their own loved ones because of lack of food supplies, depression and PTSD kicking in and civilians turning on each other, everything freezing over, constant darkness etc. I love apocalyptic and post-apocalyptic stories.

1 hour ago, whateverdgaf said:

Exactly. This is the battle that has been built up from the start, it has to have a greater impact than any other. It would also be more realistic in that grudges and resentments are not overlooked and yet the characters are only shown succumbing to them as their situation grows ever more dire. At the same time by fully exploring the bleakness and emotional toll of the situation, there is also a great scope for some truly heart-warming and inspiring moments of perseverance and camaraderie, even amongst former enemies. 

Nice, I would love this. Betrayals, backstabbing, desperation, and unexpected heroes in the middle of an apocalypse. You still have time for leaders to rise mid-battle (ex: Jon Snow was given command of the Wall in the S4); even the big badasses could have moments of weakness (ex: Karsi unable to fight the zombie kids at Hardhome); humans can still betray one another even if it works against their own interests (ex: Tyrion's assassination attempt during the battle in S2);  and not everyone will follow orders or keep former loyalties (ex: Sandor's "Fuck the King" moment as he defects) - great stuff! @SilverStormm are we allowed to predict these kinds of betrayals and twists as the battle is happening, or do we have to assume everyone agrees to fight on the side of "good" until "evil" is defeated? Just want to make sure I'm cool with the mods. 

Edited September 3, 2018 by Colorful Mess

[Happy Harpy]

2 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

The other being the futility of playing the game of thrones when a supernatural threat is about to ass fuck you but you're too busy playing the game to stop and give a shit about the looming threat. Hence, ice zombies matter and are kinda a big deal. Ergo, we've spent the majority of 7 of 8 seasons watching them playing the game of thrones already, now we get to witness them deal with the ice zombies that are knocking at the door. The only game of thrones left to play is removing Cersei from power, that's where the Starks hard-learned-lessons will come into play after TWFTD is won.

Indeed. Honest Trailers already made fun of the ice zombie invasion no one paid attention to back between S3 and S4!

I'd even say that the whole point of the story is to put an end to the game of thrones. It's to replace politicians obsessed with power for power, power for their ego, unable to see the big picture and vastly responsible then for the whole continent on the verge of being wiped out, by true rulers, those who want power to do good/free people/save people/make society work (or at least, who try). Will it last? Probably not, like every revolution or every new regime. But at dawn, people want to believe.

Edited September 3, 2018 by Happy Harpy

[Meredith Quill]

1 hour ago, Colorful Mess said:

All I'm saying is that R+L=J and who controls the North (because it is effectively leaderless) will matter to the plot earlier, around Episode 3-4, and thus will have a significant impact on allegiances and who people follow into battle going forward. But if I have to adhere to this timeline you propose, the fighting against the AOTD will last for 5-6 episodes with non-stop CGI, heroic acrobatics, and last minute saves without anyone stopping to think about what leaders they want to follow during a crisis.

So now on, I won't bring up Sansa as key to the North or Jon's shocking revelation that has political and personal significance for almost everyone in the story. It will just have to be pushed off to the very end or not come up again at all. I will switch my S8 speculation to everything zombie-related + aftermath:

How many wights do you think Tormund is gonna kill?

Does anyone think we'll have a zombie direwolf??

Which of the Northern Lords dies in the battle?

Who is Jon going to stab to save the world?

Will the Dothraki get winter coats?

What will happen to Sansa? She started as Lady of Winterfell in S6. Does she end up in exactly the same position?

OH my bad. Sansa could die. So this point is moot.

Pod on the throne? After all this wheel breaking, maybe Westeros decides to elect their rulers based on dick size?

 

I'm not proposing any timeline personally, I'm using info from set photos and other info about events in S8 to make leaps of logic vs personal wish fulfilment of what I would like to see happen.

Of course, you are 100% free to speculate about anything, incl dick sizes, if that's what you want to do.

 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Colorful Mess]

16 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

I'm not proposing any timeline personally, I'm using info from set photos and other info about events in S8 to make leaps of logic vs personal wish fulfilment of what I would like to see happen.

Yeah, I have my own wish fulfillment. I like stories about the heart in conflict and the corrupting influence of power. I don't want a good vs. evil fantasy tale which is something Tolkien didn't even do. Maybe I'm wishing too hard for the story to resemble what GRRM has said about ruling and power in interviews.

Which "info about events" and set photos are you referring to? 

I'm happy to know that dick speculation is allowed. Pod's dick: Lightbringer or Sword of the Morning? 

[Colorful Mess]

8 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

As a wise man once said, "We shouldn't believe a thing to be true just because we want to believe it". 

What people are hoping for is vastly different from what I'm hoping for. My views are not mainstream and I like it that way because of quotes like this and actor interviews mentioning the unexpected. The company line: Jon/Dany will never ever ever ever betray one another. "Only death will separate them," Dany will stay committed to the fight, Jon is a dumb cinnamon roll, Arya will love Dany, Sansa and Dany won't be at odds, ect ect. Perhaps we should all be examining what we think we know.

[Colorful Mess]

18 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

I'd even say that the whole point of the story is to put an end to the game of thrones. It's to replace politicians obsessed with power for power, power for their ego, unable to see the big picture and vastly responsible then for the whole continent on the verge of being wiped out, by true rulers, those who want power to do good/free people/save people/make society work (or at least, who try). Will it last? Probably not, like every revolution or every new regime. But at dawn, people want to believe.

GRRM:

Quote

"How do you play this game of thrones, this cutthroat game? Do you play it according to a clean and noble according to the rules you've been taught? You do that you could very well lose your life and you could lose the lives of people that you love and your family or your children. Because the other people that you're playing with are not playing by the same rules. So then do you compromise your principles and get down and dirty with them and play it in a rough and mean way that you think might be necessary to win? Well then maybe you survive a little longer but what have you become in the end? I mean these are issues that I think are very much worth talking about not only in fiction but of course we see this reflected all around us in the real world, the constant struggle of ideals versus realpolitik." - GRRM, Australian TV interview, 2013

The story is critical of people not using their power responsibility, but the game is not always about seeking power for yourself. You can try to play the game with good intentions. You just have to be wary of what playing will do to your soul. The Starks were forced to play it. I bet Jon will be forced to play it too when he becomes an heir to a kingdom like his siblings are. If they have to play, they have to play smarter. I don't think the theme is "the game of throne is bad." The game itself is neither good nor bad. It's about the struggle of ideals vs. realpolitik. 

Edited September 4, 2018 by Colorful Mess

[Stella]

17 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

I'd even say that the whole point of the story is to put an end to the game of thrones.

 

17 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

It's to replace politicians obsessed with power for power, power for their ego, unable to see the big picture and vastly responsible then for the whole continent on the verge of being wiped out, by true rulers, those who want power to do good/free people/save people/make society work (or at least, who try).

Those obsessed people are most obviously Cersi and Euron and less obviously apparently - Dany. 

I would say one of the main themes is whether people will put aside their power lusts and petty behaviors to deal with the existential threats facing Westeros. Both Ice and Fire. The series is not called ASOIAF for nothing. Everyone knows GRRM gives poetic names to horrific events. It's not about a love story. Westeros is facing something like an environmental cataclysm while at the same time WMDs are back. It only looks like Dany is the answer to stopping the NK. Twists are coming.

Martin's epic is vastly diminished when it's reduced to good vs. evil. That sort of story bores him. I would say he disdains that sort of story. I just don't believe that 'Dany and the dragons with Team Jon' are going to defeat the bad guys WW & NK is Martin's goal with this work. 

Quote

I prefer gray characters. I prefer the philosophy that, you know, the hero is the villain of the other side. You know, there’s—yes, things like the fight between Gandalf and the witch king of Angmar is a great moment, but the fight between Achilles and Hector also, you know, resonates for me and is something that I wanted to draw upon where you have two heroes fighting. I also liked the idea of the story not being predictable. Too much of fantasy is too predictable, you know? They say we write the stories that we want to read. And I was a reader, long before I was a writer, and as a reader I love stories that take me to places that I don’t expect, and I hate stories where you read the first five pages and you know exactly what’s going to happen for the rest of the book. Those stories bore me very quickly, and I don’t want to bore my readers or indeed bore myself in writing, so I try to, you know, create a fairly complicated thing that’s full of twists and surprises and unexpected turns, but all of them rooted hopefully in human nature and arising out of the characters and the desires and wishes and dreams of those characters.

http://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2011/07/12/grrm

[nikma]

1 hour ago, Stella said:

I just don't believe that 'Dany and the dragons with Team Jon' are going to defeat the bad guys WW & NK is Martin's goal with this work. 

Well, he doesnt really have a choice. That's the reason he failed to finish the story. He is a victim of his own false reputation. 

 

He can speak about gray characters all he wants but he created Ramsay, Joffrey, Euron, Gregor, book Cersei,... There is nothing gray about them. They are comic book villains. Loki and Killmonger from MCU are more complex and morally grey than half of his villains.

Edited September 4, 2018 by nikma

[Happy Harpy]

1 hour ago, nikma said:

He can speak about gray characters all he wants but he created Ramsay, Joffrey, Euron, Gregor, book Cersei,... There is nothing gray about them. They are comic book villains. Loki and Killmonger from MCU are more complex and morally grey than half of his villains.

About that. I think it's a testimony to both Lena Headey's talent and D&D writing of Cersei, that more people aren't just fed up with her as they were with Ramsay. I've seen criticism about keeping Cersei around longer than she should (and not only mine, LOL) but the scale isn't comparable.

Imo, Cersei should have died mid-S7, after she avenged Myrcella. Yet, I can't help but hope I'll get another Sept of Baelor level of moment that will make me change my mind in S8 and be OK with her sticking around. As long as she dies.

And about that. GRRM inspired from The Accursed Kings and a couple of pretty despicable yet not Big Bad characters survived with no karma, so I expected something similar in GoT/ASOIAF. My money was on LF (died) Varys (champion of the people since S4) Ellaria (died) one Sand Snake (all died). So, not many candidates left. Melisandre, maybe, although I feel that between Davos, Arya and the NK, her chances are slim.

[Eyes High]

New from /Frikidoctor:

https://twitter.com/Frikidoctor/status/1037239197621526528

/Frikidoctor is posting an ad for a T-shirt that reads "Choose Your Own Ending (...) Spoiling Is Not a Crime" and depicts four possible Iron Throne outcomes:

1. The NK sitting on the Irone Throne

2. Jon and Dany holding hands standing in front of the Iron Throne, with a dead Tyrion

3. Dany sitting on the Iron Throne with Tyrion standing beside her, with a dead Jon

4. Tyrion sitting on the Iron Throne, with a dead Jon and Dany

/Frikidoctor accompanied the image with the statement (roughly translated) that "I am almost certain that the end of #GameofThrones is on this shirt...Next week, more details. *smile emoji*"

/Frikidoctor also posted in response to someone's speculations that "Dany doesn't die in childbirth :D" (translated).

/Frikidoctor doesn't usually get heavy duty spoilers until just before the season airs, but maybe someone has the goods...?

If he's right about this, assuming no NK triumph, then at least one of Jon/Dany/Tyrion will die (#2, #3, #4). /BoatsexBaby also implied that Dany won't die, so assuming /BoatsexBaby is correct and putting these two bits of information together, we're looking at Dany on the throne no matter what (#2 or #3).

And there's no option here where Jon rules alone. Womp womp!

...No option where Jon and Tyrion both survive, either.

Edited September 5, 2018 by Eyes High

[GraceK]

Tyrion dying would definitely be a WTF moment. That would genuinely shock me. Especially if it turns out to be because of some sort of betrayal

#4 is dark AF.

god this long night  is killing me ??? 

Edited September 5, 2018 by GraceK

[Eyes High]

/Frikidoctor also says in the comments section of a Twitter survey thread that Dany dying in childbirth while Jon becomes king won't happen. He also teases that while he came up with the "double betrayal" theory (Sansa and Tyrion betraying Jon/Dany), he's not giving it everything.

Edited September 5, 2018 by Eyes High

[nikma]

I mean they could kill Tyrion and end the Lannister line. Davos could be Hand to Dany and Jon. I don't think Tyrion is that necessary for the end, but he is still one of the most popular characters, so his death would have a strong impact.

 

But I don't trust BoatsexBaby either.

Edited September 5, 2018 by nikma

[Eyes High]

14 minutes ago, nikma said:

I mean they could kill Tyrion and end the Lannister line. Davos could be Hand to Dany and Jon. I don't think Tyrion is that necessary for the end, but he is still one of the most popular characters, so his death would have a strong impact.

 

But I don't trust BoatsexBaby either.

 

I think /BoatsexBaby is probably right about Dany not dying, but a lot of that rests on my assumption that 1) Architectural Digest is right about Dany's last scenes being filmed in Dubrovnik and 2) GOT wouldn't shoot a Dany death scene in Dubrovnik.

Frikidoctor says that Dany doesn't die in childbirth, but is that "Dany doesn't die in childbirth" (or in any other way) or "Dany doesn't die in childbirth" (but dies in some other fashion)?

Quote

#4 is dark AF.

Well, if Frikidoctor is right, at least one of Jon/Dany/Tyrion will die, and that's pretty dark already. If it has to be one of them, Jon makes the most sense for obvious reasons.

I think a lot of fans are going to lose their minds if Jon dies, especially if Dany lives. Even in the comments thread for that Twitter survey, several posters are speculating that Jon rules while Dany dies, even though that wasn't an option presented.

Edited September 5, 2018 by Eyes High

[tangerine95]

I can't really see Tyrion ending up on the throne tbh.Mostly because that would mean house Lannister has been ruling for the entire show and that basically they won the game of thrones.Imo house Lannister dying out,at least Tywin's line,is more likely than that.

Jon dying would seem more likely to me if he wasn't made legitimate and his real name wasn't the biggest Targ king name ever.Before finding that out,I used to think he would die fighting the NK.

[nikma]

If I had to choose I would like Jon to die and Dany to break the wheel so I could watch shitstorm Lol. D&D would be called SJW and feminazis.

 

Can you imagine? Sansa in the North, Dany on IT, Yara on the Iron Islands. 

[GraceK]

59 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Jon and Dany holding hands standing in front of the Iron Throne, with a dead Tyrion

I know most don't agree, but this honestly seems the most logical to me if I had to choose between those four choices. And yes, it’s absolutely my bias speaking ??? Sorry not sorry ?

Edited September 5, 2018 by GraceK

[nikma]

I love dark endings so I would be happy if someone from Big 3 dies. And it seems someone will judging from cast and crew interviews. 

[GraceK]

4 minutes ago, nikma said:

If I had to choose I would like Jon to die and Dany to break the wheel so I could watch shitstorm Lol. D&D would be called SJW and feminazis.

 

Can you imagine? Sansa in the North, Dany on IT, Yara on the Iron Islands. 

Twitter would implode ???? 

Edited September 5, 2018 by GraceK

[nikma]

Well maybe that's that controversal ending. But I think it's great lol.

[Eyes High]

18 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

I can't really see Tyrion ending up on the throne tbh.Mostly because that would mean house Lannister has been ruling for the entire show and that basically they won the game of thrones.Imo house Lannister dying out,at least Tywin's line,is more likely than that.

Well, playing devil's advocate, if Tyrion is only regent for Jon and Dany's kid and doesn't have any kids himself, then Tywin's line would still end.

Book Tyrion is probably going to have a son at some point in the books if he lives long enough (albeit one who doesn't look like Jaime and who doesn't have Tyrion's intelligence, using GRRM's "If the gods are good" curse): "Shae is not the first to grace my bed, and one day I may take a wife and sire a son. If the gods are good, he'll look like his uncle and think like his father." The quote is from ACOK, and he did take a wife, so all he has left to do is sire a son.

 

15 minutes ago, nikma said:

If I had to choose I would like Jon to die and Dany to break the wheel so I could watch shitstorm Lol. D&D would be called SJW and feminazis.

The shitstorm would be epic. 

 

14 minutes ago, GraceK said:

I know most don't agree, but this honestly seems the most logical to me if I had to choose between those four choices. And yes, it’s absolutely my bias speaking ??? Sorry not sorry ?

Fair enough. And /BoatsexBaby has implied Dany makes it out alive, which leaves options #2 and #3, so...

Edited September 5, 2018 by Eyes High

[MarySNJ]

On 8/31/2018 at 10:26 AM, whateverdgaf said:

Not really, we have no context or explanations why they dislike the ending, how much they liked the show in the first place, what they think constitutes a good ending etc... And this is all hearsay anyway. It's nothing to really invest too much in.

Generally I agree that without context any opinions from production crew should be taken with a grain of salt. That said, I must have missed it somewhere... can someone please post a link to the crew negative reactions/complaints about the ending that are being referenced?  Thanks!

Edited September 5, 2018 by MarySNJ
Stupid spell check

[whateverdgaf]

Obviously Tyrion is the least likely to rule, so of course he would be my favourite. That said, I do hope that the Lannisters remain in some form. The Targaryens have a history of tyranny as much as the Lannisters, so if the Targaryens can live on, so can the Lannisters. Isn't not punishing for the sins of the fathers quite a big thing? Aside from that, I would find  Season 8 exploring the road to Tyrion taking the throne more interesting than Jon or Daenerys. The odds are stacked against him, but that is exactly why Tyrion ending up on the throne would be the most enjoyable outcome for me.

[Eyes High]

53 minutes ago, whateverdgaf said:

Aside from that, I would find  Season 8 exploring the road to Tyrion taking the throne more interesting than Jon or Daenerys

The only way I see it happening is if both Jon and Dany die, and even then it's a long shot in my opinion.

A few things that came up in other forums or on Twitter since I first posted about this:

1. Javi Marcos of L7R has said that he knows the ending, full stop. Since he and Frikidoctor have done Youtube interviews and such together, it seems likely that he told Frikidoctor. On the other hand, Frikidoctor says he's almost sure of the ending.

2. Right around when the end of S7 aired, Frikidoctor was asked his prediction for the end of the show, and he said that his theory was that Jon impregnates Dany and dies, leaving Dany as the endgame queen with Tyrion as her Hand...Option #3, essentially.

3. Frikidoctor when someone asked about Dany reigning while Jon and Tyrion die said that it would be "too bitter" and not bittersweet, so he seems to be hinting that #4 (the ending where Tyrion reigns while Jon and Dany die) is not the correct one.

In terms of #3, I remember that Daario told Dany that she would get the throne and that he hoped it would bring her happiness. If #3 happens, we would be looking at a scenario where Dany gets the throne (and a baby, too, probably) but loses Jon. That would be genuinely surprising, too, I think, to a lot of fans, who are expecting the reverse--Dany dying while Jon reigns--to happen.

Edited September 5, 2018 by Eyes High

[Happy Harpy]

2 hours ago, nikma said:

I mean they could kill Tyrion and end the Lannister line.

*puts on Braime shipper shirt* And Golden Lion Baby? A right proper Lannister!

Again, Tyrion dying would be controversial. He stays a fan favorite. His lack of mojo in the last season could be a sign of his demise, it would prepare the audience, just like Tommen went from sweet kid to Dirty Old Grand Pope puppet.

Yet, I think it's too early for Frikidoctor to have real spoilers and the 7R have been dead wrong before this off season IIRC.

[nikma]

Dany could lose not only Jon, but two dragons as well. One is already lost.

 

I think Jon's death would in retrospect make his death in S5 more important. He didn't really cheat death back then, he just got few months to finish his job and die for real. He is living on borrowed time.

 

Death of Jon and dragons could also explain Emilia's reaction to S8 and all other interviews with cast and crew.

10 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Javi Marcos of L7R has said that he knows the ending, full the stop

Really?

11 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

That would be genuinely surprising, too, I think, to a lot of fans, who are expecting the reverse--Dany dying while Jon reigns--to happen

I agree.

[Eyes High]

21 minutes ago, nikma said:

Dany could lose not only Jon, but two dragons as well. One is already lost.

Yes. I think she'll lose one dragon in the 8x03 battle and the remaining dragon to Viserion in 8x05/8x06, but however it plays out, and no matter what happens to Jon and Dany in the end, I think the dragons are toast.

Quote

I think Jon's death would in retrospect make his death in S5 more important. He didn't really cheat death back then, he just got few months to finish his job and die for real. He is living on borrowed time.

It would make sense, for sure. 

Quote

Death of Jon and dragons could also explain Emilia's reaction to S8 and all other interviews with cast and crew.

I agree. Emilia got extremely upset when she found out that Jon died in S5. Jon and the dragons dying is not the only explanation for Emilia's emotional reaction to S8, but it's certainly a plausible one.

Quote

Really?

Allegedly. Someone else said that he had. It might be buried in his Twitter account somewhere.

It is true as @Happy Harpy pointed out that Javi has been wrong before, though.

Edited September 5, 2018 by Eyes High

[nikma]

But did he lied before?

[nikma]

Even without Javi and Friki Jon's death makes sense. One thing is sure from interviews we've got, Jon and Dany won't rule together. And idea that they would just leave Westeros in ruins and go somewhere else makes no sense to me. So one of them would die IMO. 

Edited September 5, 2018 by nikma

[Eyes High]

49 minutes ago, nikma said:

But did he lied before?

I don't think Javi has ever lied, but he has passed on information which turned out to be incorrect before. If he's mistaken about knowing the ending, I'm guessing it's because his source is lying to him, not because he's claiming to know something he doesn't.

Frikidoctor seems awfully confident that he knows the ending, though, judging from the way he's cheerfully "Esa no va a ser :D" (roughly, "Not gonna happen") flat-out nixing the many theories put forward in the Twitter thread I linked: no Jonsa, no King Gendry, no Jon ruling while Dany dies, etc. etc. Either he really does know the ending, or he sure thinks he does.

43 minutes ago, nikma said:

Even without Javi and Friki Jon's death makes sense.

I agree. 

One thing I don't get--assuming Dany lives to rule and Jon dies--is that NCW seems very, very happy with the show's ending, even though he hates the idea of Dany ending up queen. Maybe it's because Dany ends up completely miserable...?

Edited September 5, 2018 by Eyes High

[GraceK]

18 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

t NCW seems very, very happy with the show's ending, even though he hates the idea of Dany ending up queen. Maybe it's because Dany ends up completely miserable...?

Maybe he just likes the ending because it’s organic and feels natural. His personal feelings aside for the character doesn’t mean he despises Emilia. If the story is well done and ends in way that truly makes sense and does justice to all time and effort that was spent, I can see why he would be happy with the ending regardless of his feelings for Daenarys. Especially if Tyrion who he does like ends up in a good position. NCW doesn’t strike me as a petty person, and maybe he’s also talking about the ending for his own character as well.

Edited September 5, 2018 by GraceK

[whateverdgaf]

5 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Maybe he just likes the ending because it’s organic and feels natural. His personal feelings aside for the character doesn’t mean he despises Emilia. If the story is well done and ends in way that truly makes sense and does justice to all time and effort that was spent, I can see why he would be happy with the ending regardless of his feelings for Daenarys. Especially if Tyrion who he does like ends up in a good position. NCW doesn’t strike me as a petty person, and maybe he’s also talking about the ending for his own character as well.

He really does hate Dany. If Dany ends up Queen of Everything, that must mean something really good for Jaime (cough married to Brienne and living happily ever after on Tarth cough).

[Happy Harpy]

41 minutes ago, whateverdgaf said:

that must mean something really good for Jaime (cough married to Brienne and living happily ever after on Tarth cough).

Where can I sign for this?

I was resigned to get my heart broken by those two but NCW is giving me hope.

[YaddaYadda]

NCW might "hate" Dany, but Jaime is headed north to fight with her. Things do change.

And maybe NCW is more concerned where his character ends up. If Jaime gets an ending that he feels is fitting, then I'm sure he'll be happy. Whether Jaime dies with his sword in hand or lives happily ever after with Brienne, those are endings that I think he will be happy with, so long as he doesn't return to Cersei.

No offense to anyone, but this thread has become unbearable. Here's to hoping for some leak or a trailer.

[bubble sparkly]

If Jon and Dany did die I don’t believe for a second that Sansa and Arya would just chill in the North and let Tyrion raise Jon’s kid, so I definitely think that “Tyrion is regent” option is bogus.

I like Tyrion and Jon and want them both to live, but if I had to pick one to live I would prefer Jon. However, I don’t think the show has really given any sort of foreshadowing for Tyrion’s death has it? I could really only see this happening if Tyrion does betray Dany in s8 as some are speculating.

Unfortunately Jon dying probably makes the most sense, if we assume Friki does know the ending. It does seem like a very GoT thing for Dany to eventually get the throne, but when she finally does it doesn’t make her happy as Jon is dead.

[nikma]

I think Jon's king's blood could play a role. We heared many times that there is power in king's blood. If he dies I think he will choose death, his blood could play a role in defeating the NK. 

[Happy Harpy]

1 hour ago, YaddaYadda said:

No offense to anyone, but this thread has become unbearable.

Yeah, I was thinking it lacked speculation about King Gendry lately. Killing Cersei, his bio mom, while wearing Arya's face under Jaime's face.

You're welcome :)

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I don't think Javi has ever lied, but he has passed on information which turned out to be incorrect before. If he's mistaken about knowing the ending, I'm guessing it's because his source is lying to him, not because he's claiming to know something he doesn't.

Frikidoctor seems awfully confident that he knows the ending, though, judging from the way he's cheerfully "Esa no va a ser :D" (roughly, "Not gonna happen") flat-out nixing the many theories put forward in the Twitter thread I linked: no Jonsa, no King Gendry, no Jon ruling while Dany dies, etc. etc. Either he really does know the ending, or he sure thinks he does.

[...] Maybe it's because Dany ends up completely miserable...?

 

Unlike some youtubers obviously recycling freefolk rumors to make up shyte and present it as leaks, and although some people get so drunk on internet fame that you never know, I wouldn't say he lies, either. Moreover, from what I read, it seems it was a kind of announcement for a video. Maybe there, he'll state explicitly that it's only a theory, or that he got hints or tidbits that support his old theories.

The premiere date and the timeline given by the CGI guy is to consider here. I really do feel that it's much too early for anyone but for people closely connected to the "first circle" (on set crew, actors, writers, editors) to have a precise idea of the story as a whole. Moreover, the smaller the circle is, the easier it would be to find the "mole" and they signed NDAs and/or don't want to be blacklisted in the business for spilling confidential info.

Some fan favorite might bite the dust and people are so involved and have waited for so long anyway that uproars are probably unavoidable. But I feel that no character in the "good" camp will end up miserable; unless the ending is tragic whereas it's supposed to be *insert the word that shall not be repeated*. And I wonder if the general tendency or eagerness to push a villain narrative on some characters (Dany since she was mentioned here, but also Tyrion, Arya, Jon, Sansa) whereas GoT doesn't lack precedents of good people dying for a honest or innocent mistake, doing something honorable, fighting the good fight etc. doesn't come from a "hater's" reflex but more from an obscure and vague impression that in the end, a certain kind of justice will prevail and that good "main" characters will somehow not get the short end of the stick.

Edited September 5, 2018 by Happy Harpy

[Eyes High]

30 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

Yeah, I was thinking it lacked speculation about King Gendry lately. Killing Cersei, his bio mom, while wearing Arya's face under Jaime's face.

You're welcome :)

Unlike some youtubers obviously recycling freefolk rumors to make up shyte and present it as leaks, and although some people get so drunk on internet fame that you never know, I wouldn't say he lies, either. Moreover, from what I read, it seems it was a kind of announcement for a video. Maybe there, he'll state explicitly that it's only a theory, or that he got hints or tidbits that support his old theories.

The premiere date and the timeline given by the CGI guy is to consider here. I really do feel that it's much too early for anyone but for people closely connected to the "first circle" (on set crew, actors, writers, editors) to have a precise idea of the story as a whole. Moreover, the smaller the circle is, the easier it would be to find the "mole" and they signed NDAs and/or don't want to be blacklisted in the business for spilling confidential info.

Some fan favorite might bite the dust and people are so involved and have waited for so long anyway that uproars are probably unavoidable. But I feel that no character in the "good" camp will end up miserable; unless the ending is tragic whereas it's supposed to be *insert the word that shall not be repeated*. And I wonder if the general tendency or eagerness to push a villain narrative on some characters (Dany since she was mentioned here, but also Tyrion, Arya, Jon, Sansa) whereas GoT doesn't lack precedents of good people dying for a honest or innocent mistake, doing something honorable, fighting the good fight etc. doesn't come from a "hater's" reflex but more from an obscure and vague impression that in the end, a certain kind of justice will prevail and that good "main" characters will somehow not get the short end of the stick.

Friki just said in a /Freefolk thread about Leaker of the Year to wait until the end of next week before awarding the title, so he seems to be planning on dropping something next week, as his Twitter posts hinted.

...If Friki is the one who manages to leak the ending of GOT, it will be his ultimate revenge on HBO for what they did to him a few seasons ago.

This could just be elaborate trolling, though. He got everyone riled up with that double betrayal theory not long ago and today he seemed to be admitting that he doesn’t buy any of it. So we’ll see. 

[Leila6]

If Jon dies and Dany rules alone, I will regret ever having watched this show.

Edited September 6, 2018 by Leila6

[MrsR]

I'm still committed to The Royal Baby ending up ruling with Dany as regent. Nothing is swaying me on this one. It's got pathos, (dead Jon), irony (Dany is usurped by her own child's birthright), satisfaction (she does get to rule, for a while but  in a loved one's stead) and it's ever so Wars of the Roses historically appropriate. It's just like GRRM to place  the one character we have never met as the end game. That's the kind of bend in the road he loves.

I wouldn't put it past them for there to be a clutch of fresh dragon eggs tucked away somewhere. Life will find a way.  

I see Gendry as both a righteous fighter and a stud. He's there to revive a house and produce heirs.  He doesn't carry enough weight as a character to be a tragic figure.

I see the Throne melted down. Get rid of that damn cursed thing.

After the Wars of The Roses there was a welcome era of peace. Tired of years of war everyone wanted to go home and rebuild, it's a natural inclination.  So I doubt there will be much jockeying for position amoungst the survivors. They'll be so many goodies and rewards for the survivors to pick up after it all goes down, why not go home and clean it all up.

D&D love Jaime. He's the greyest of grey characters. What they have planned for him is anybody's guess. 

Davos will live, Sam will live. Tyrion will live. I'm positive on them. Brienne is hanging by a thread narratively. So is Yara and Theon. At least one of them has to go.

The Hound, Varys and Melisandre I see as dead dead dead.

I don't want to even speculate on the Starks. Surprise me!

 

And if the ending is that the Night King wins it all I will dedicate my life to to the wanton and vicious destruction of three very monstrous evil writers. I won't be alone.

Edited September 6, 2018 by MrsR

[GraceK]

29 minutes ago, MrsR said:

I'm still committed to The Royal Baby ending up ruling with Dany as regent. Nothing is swaying me on this one. It's got pathos, (dead Jon), irony (Dany is usurped by her own child's birthright), satisfaction (she does get to rule, for a while but  in a loved one's stead) and it's ever so Wars of the Roses historically appropriate. It's just like GRRM to place  the one character we have never met as the end game. That's the kind of bend in the road he loves.

I wouldn't put it past them for there to be a clutch of fresh dragon eggs tucked away somewhere. Life will find a way.  

I see Gendry as both a righteous fighter and a stud. He's there to revive a house and produce heirs.  He doesn't carry enough weight as a character to be a tragic figure.

I see the Throne melted down. Get rid of that damn cursed thing.

After the Wars of The Roses there was a welcome era of peace. Tired of years of war everyone wanted to go home and rebuild, it's a natural inclination.  So I doubt there will be much jockeying for position amoungst the survivors. They'll be so many goodies and rewards for the survivors to pick up after it all goes down, why not go home and clean it all up.

D&D love Jaime. He's the greyest of grey characters. What they have planned for him is anybody's guess. 

Davos will live, Sam will live. Tyrion will live. I'm positive on them. Brienne is hanging by a thread narratively. So is Yara and Theon. At least one of them has to go.

The Hound, Varys and Melisandre I see as dead dead dead.

I don't want to even speculate on the Starks. Surprise me!

 

And if the ending is that the Night King wins it all I will dedicate my life to to the wanton and vicious destruction of three very monstrous evil writers. I won't be alone.

I like the way you think ?

[SeanC]

12 hours ago, tangerine95 said:

I can't really see Tyrion ending up on the throne tbh.Mostly because that would mean house Lannister has been ruling for the entire show and that basically they won the game of thrones.Imo house Lannister dying out,at least Tywin's line,is more likely than that.

As far as Tywin's line goes, it continuing only through Tyrion would probably be the most complete middle finger to the old bastard.

[GrailKing]

7 hours ago, SeanC said:

As far as Tywin's line goes, it continuing only through Tyrion would probably be the most complete middle finger to the old bastard.

True, but I rather it die out myself LOL

Maybe he is a Targ bastard ?

 

12 hours ago, Eyes High said:

This could just be elaborate trolling, though. He got everyone riled up with that double betrayal theory not long ago and today he seemed to be admitting that he doesn’t buy any of it. So we’ll see. 

Is that the one where Tyrion and Sansa betray Jon and Danerys?

 

14 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

If Jon and Dany did die I don’t believe for a second that Sansa and Arya would just chill in the North and let Tyrion raise Jon’s kid, so I definitely think that “Tyrion is regent” option is bogus.

No way would they let a Lannister raise their child, that house cost both of them dearly.

If Danny and Jon marry or not, I think blood and family win out.

[anamika]

7 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

No offense to anyone, but this thread has become unbearable. Here's to hoping for some leak or a trailer.

This is the longest dry spell we had without any proper leaks and hence it's just basically rehashing the same discussion in different ways.

And I don't know about anyone else, but I will personally be cheering when the North falls and Winterfell burns to the ground next season mainly because I am tired of hearing about Northern independence and this North über alles shit.

There's also the fact that GRRM has been pro 7K and not pro independent kingdoms as evidenced by his comments on how the EU and the United States benefit from being unified or a federation.

We could similarly see a federation of sorts with Jon/Dany leading the rebuilding of Westeros. Jon is more of an administrator/politician and Dany is the charismatic conqueror. As the show emphasized using LF last season, together they would be difficult to defeat. GRRM has mentioned that it's not just enough to have the qualities of a good king/queen, but that one needs the firepower to take the throne and hold it. And currently the only person with the power to take the throne and hold it is Dany.

I am not sure how close to GRRM's ending the show's ending is going to be, considering both Sophie Turner and Isaac Wright have mentioned that the last season is David and Dan's vision of how the story should end. But since we are not getting the books, these are a few possible book endings that could be show endings based on GRRM's recent world con interview linked here:

http://joannalannister.tumblr.com/post/177040612806/if-you-want-to-listen-to-the-audio-from-grrm-at

So listening to this interview - many of the things we have heard before. But a couple stood out. One that was already mentioned in the endgame speculation thread was

Quote

"All of these shows are prequels, all five that HBO've been developing are prequels, so none of them're going to follow Game of Thrones, you're not going to be seeing the further adventures of Tyrion or Jon Snow or Arya or whoever."

I do think that GRRM gave away that Tyrion, Arya and Jon will be surviving ASoIaF. He has had the endgames of these characters for some 20 plus years and if they were going to end the series dead, I don't think their names would be the first to pop up in his mind.

Since no one thought that Tyrion and Arya are dying anyways, the big thing here for me is Jon. I was pretty sure he was going to end up dead, but now I think he survives.  I do think that these three characters will play a big role next season. The question then is what about Dany?

In the interview GRRM talks about feeling a bit like Dany in his childhood - his family, grandparents etc. were supposedly rich, popular and well off and then lost everything in the great depression. How they lost the house his mother was born in and how he would walk past this house feeling like Dany. And how his mother would tell him that even though now they were nothing that one day they would be back! I get the feeling that GRRM wants Dany to get  KL/Dragonstone/house with red door happy ending unlike a certain section of the fandom that desperately wants her to turn mad queen and die.

It's very possible we are still getting Targaryen restoration or GRRM's fictional restoration of the Bradys to their former glory! It could be Jon, Dany and endgame baby no matter how 'Disney' that is to some viewers.

That then leaves Bran from the OG big 5 and I think he is going to make it as well. So with respect to the ending that GRRM is heading for I see Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Arya and Bran surviving the series.

Quote

Some people who have died in the show will never die in the books

 It's possible that Rickon survives in the books to carry on the Stark name. It's possible the show never addresses Stark succession if this is so since they killed off the character.

Quote

Needed Stannis POV. Started with Cressen, but he died

The only reason Davos is a POV character in the books is because GRRM had to kill off Cressen. This not only shows how much his story changes based on what he is writing - how in the world did he think he could get to his ending by writing this way!! - but that Davos is ultimately not a very important character. With Stannis possibly meeting his ending soon in the next book, it could be that Davos continues the rest of his story with Rickon - who could become KITN.

I think the entire Northern plot on the show and the ending there will be different given how much they have changed things there. But if Sansa is in KL and sharing scenes with SweetRobin in the series finale, it could be that they are joining back with her Vale plot in the books and continuing from there. Remains to be seen what they do with Arya and Bran next season.