Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

Eyes High · August 23, 2018

11 hours ago, WindyNights said:

It's definitely Winterfell for Sansa. She's not going to give up being ruling Lady of Winterfell to be Tyrion's subordinate and Lady of Casterly Rock.

Well, we don't know that Sansa's going to be the endgame Lady of Winterfell, do we? We do know that in addition to all the other significant obstacles to that outcome in the books that Book Sansa has been disinherited, which suggests that Winterfell is not Sansa's fate in the books, meaning it won't be in the show, either.

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And it's not like Arya is going to become ruling Lady of Winterfell

We don't know that, either. Maisie Williams has implied that TV Arya's ending was a big surprise to her, and has said that she had to go back to the beginning of the show to make sense of Arya's arc as having a beginning, middle, and an end.

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Sansa learns politics from Littlefinger

That doesn't necessarily translate to endgame Lady of Winterfell, though, does it? Sansa could equally apply political lessons wherever she ends up, be it Riverrun, the Vale, King's Landing, Casterly Rock, or somewhere else altogether.

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Plus Weiss and Cogman already tipped their hand a little too much when they explained what Nymeria leaving Arya meant and that it was foreshadowing for Arya.

No, Cogman said it "might" be foreshadowing for Arya. Do you really think they'd casually give away her endgame? All this talk about how Arya is never going to be a lady of a castle and wear a frilly dress, etc. etc. reeks of protesting too much. Meanwhile, Arya in Season 7 is strutting around dressed like Ned, wearing her hair like Ned, telling anecdotes about Ned, and quoting Ned, while Sansa is outfitted in a sartorial mishmash of all her non-Stark influences (i.e. Ramsay, Littlefinger, Margaery, and Cersei), wearing her hair like Cersei, and implying she admires Cersei. Right. (Ruling lady Lyanna Mormont's Season 7 outfits also echo Arya's.) And as I said, Maisie has implied that Arya's ending was a surprise to her, and Arya going wandering while Sansa ends up as Lady of Winterfell would not be a surprise to anyone.

I'll admit in spite of my conviction that they're endgame that there are plenty of good arguments against Tyrion and Sansa winding up together--I've repeated them myself many a time on these boards--but "Sansa's going to be endgame Lady of Winterfell" isn't one of them.

Edited August 23, 2018 by Eyes High

Sunshinegal · August 23, 2018

My prediction is that Bran will be the ruler of the North and Sansa will be Lady of Casterly Rock (the shippy vibes on the show between Sansa and Tyrion). I actually think it will be poetic because Tywin wanted to disinherit Tyrion and use Sansa for her claim

Advance35 · August 23, 2018

I actually don't think Sansa will be around, post AOTD. I did a rewatch of Hardhome and if the Dragon Pit scene is really Tyrion, Brienne, Sansa and Lord Arryn running for their lives. I just don't see how Sansa comes out of that alive. Would Sansa's survival be to much sweet in a "bittersweet" cocktail? I'm rooting for her but I can't say I'm optimistic. Unless there were some filming spoilers I'm unaware of.

With regards to Sansa's possible connection to Tyrion. I'm one of the people that thinks the Tyrion/Sansa marriage was something that GRRM came up with for a reason. I don't think it was just to keep Littlefinger from marrying Sansa to someone else. I think it was put in place for a reason pertaining entirely to Tyrion and Sansa. What that is, who can say.

Eyes High · August 23, 2018

1 hour ago, Sunshinegal said:

My prediction is that Bran will be the ruler of the North and Sansa will be Lady of Casterly Rock (the shippy vibes on the show between Sansa and Tyrion). I actually think it will be poetic because Tywin wanted to disinherit Tyrion and use Sansa for her claim

The show is very shippy when it comes to Sansa/Tyrion, but that's not the only or even the main reason I think they're going to end up together.

Bran may well wind up as the ruler of the North, although that would be kind of odd given his "I can't be lord of anything" statement in Season 7. We also know that betting was suspended because too many people in early 2018 started betting on Bran being the endgame king, so there is that possibility as well.

59 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

I actually don't think Sansa will be around, post AOTD.

Quite possible. I'm sure you can dig up a bunch of my old posts where I argue that GRRM's original 1993 outline strongly implies he planned on Sansa dying at least at one point.

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I did a rewatch of Hardhome and if the Dragon Pit scene is really Tyrion, Brienne, Sansa and Lord Arryn running for their lives. I just don't see how Sansa comes out of that alive.

To be fair, the Daznak Pit scene involved Tyrion and Missandei running for their lives, and they both survived. The main characters running for their lives at Hardhome survived as well. I don't think the odds have anything to do with it. If Sansa's supposed to survive, she will, even if she's being chased by a thousand wights around the Dragonpit.

While it is possible, even likely that a short Daznak Pit-type scene was filmed in Italica during the day--the complicated 5x09 Daznak Pit scene was filmed in only 10 days, and they had four filming days in Seville--I personally believe that the day shoots were postwar scenes for reasons I've previously stated in this thread. The night shoots, if any, were probably battle scenes, though.

With respect to Sansa and Tyrion, we don't know the content of the scenes filmed in Seville, but we do know the following:

1. Everything filmed in Seville for the show (as opposed to the documentary they were working on) was for 8x06.

2. Sophie and Peter were filming for the show in Seville and filmed (along with Maisie, Liam, John, Isaac, and Gwen) for all four weekdays of filming.

3. Sophie and Peter's stand-ins left the set at the same time on at least one day.

Now, all this doesn't automatically mean that Sansa and Tyrion end up together, or even that they necessarily leave the Dragonpit in one piece, but it does mean that whether it's a battle scene, a death scene, a postwar scene, or some other scene entirely, one of the very last scenes in the show is a scene with Sansa and Tyrion.

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With regards to Sansa's possible connection to Tyrion. I'm one of the people that thinks the Tyrion/Sansa marriage was something that GRRM came up with for a reason. I don't think it was just to keep Littlefinger from marrying Sansa to someone else. I think it was put in place for a reason pertaining entirely to Tyrion and Sansa. What that is, who can say.

Who can say? I can say: Tyrion and Sansa are going to end up together. That's the reason.

Edited August 23, 2018 by Eyes High

WindyNights · August 23, 2018

1 hour ago, Sunshinegal said:

My prediction is that Bran will be the ruler of the North and Sansa will be Lady of Casterly Rock (the shippy vibes on the show between Sansa and Tyrion). I actually think it will be poetic because Tywin wanted to disinherit Tyrion and use Sansa for her claim

Bran Stark already said he'll never be Lord of Winterfell

WindyNights · August 23, 2018

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Well, we don't know that Sansa's going to be the endgame Lady of Winterfell, do we? We do know that in addition to all the other significant obstacles to that outcome in the books that Book Sansa has been disinherited, which suggests that Winterfell is not Sansa's fate in the books, meaning it won't be in the show, either.

We don't know that, either. Maisie Williams has implied that TV Arya's ending was a big surprise to her, and has said that she had to go back to the beginning of the show to make sense of Arya's arc as having a beginning, middle, and an end.

That doesn't necessarily translate to endgame Lady of Winterfell, though, does it? Sansa could equally apply political lessons wherever she ends up, be it Riverrun, the Vale, King's Landing, Casterly Rock, or somewhere else altogether.

No, Cogman said it "might" be foreshadowing for Arya. Do you really think they'd casually give away her endgame? All this talk about how Arya is never going to be a lady of a castle and wear a frilly dress, etc. etc. reeks of protesting too much. Meanwhile, Arya in Season 7 is strutting around dressed like Ned, wearing her hair like Ned, telling anecdotes about Ned, and quoting Ned, while Sansa is outfitted in a sartorial mishmash of all her non-Stark influences (i.e. Ramsay, Littlefinger, Margaery, and Cersei), wearing her hair like Cersei, and implying she admires Cersei. Right. (Ruling lady Lyanna Mormont's Season 7 outfits also echo Arya's.) And as I said, Maisie has implied that Arya's ending was a surprise to her, and Arya going wandering while Sansa ends up as Lady of Winterfell would not be a surprise to anyone.

I'll admit in spite of my conviction that they're endgame that there are plenty of good arguments against Tyrion and Sansa winding up together--I've repeated them myself many a time on these boards--but "Sansa's going to be endgame Lady of Winterfell" isn't one of them.

Robb didn't didn't disinherit Sansa. That's a fan theory. He just put Jon in front of her.

Also that's the type of logic that people who don't believe in R+ L= J latched onto. All this foreshadowing is too obvious there the twist is he's really just Ned's son.

Winterfell would be the only place she'd be ruling.

And yes, I do think he would give it away if he was vague enough. Arya doesn't even have an arc concerning politics. Hell, season 7 Arya even says she was never going to be as good a lady as Sansa so she had to become something else

nikma · August 23, 2018

I agree. Sansa being Lady of WF is as obvious as R+ L= J.

Eyes High · August 23, 2018

27 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

Robb didn't didn't disinherit Sansa. That's a fan theory. He just put Jon in front of her.

It's not a fan theory. The text spells it out:

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"A king must have an heir. If I should die in my next battle, the kingdom must not die with me. By law Sansa is next in line of succession, so Winterfell and the north would pass to her." His mouth tightened. "To her, and her lord husband. Tyrion Lannister. I cannot allow that. I will not allow that. That dwarf must never have the north."
"No," Catelyn agreed. "You must name another heir, until such time as Jeyne gives you a son."

In Robb's view, Tyrion must "never" have the north. That wouldn't be the case if Sansa were merely bumped down in the succession. Sansa has quite clearly been disinherited in favour of Jon.

You know, fans have come up with all sorts of convoluted, laboured explanations for Sansa being disinherited is no big deal and doesn't matter at all and will never pose any obstacle to Sansa ending up with Winterfell, just as they have come up with various convoluted, laboured explanations for why Sansa and Tyrion's marriage doesn't matter at all and was a mere plot device and will have no bearing whatsoever on the endgame.

It's a failure to see the forest for the trees, in my opinion. In both instances.

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Winterfell would be the only place she'd be ruling.

Not necessarily.

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Hell, season 7 Arya even says she was never going to be as good a lady as Sansa so she had to become something else

...which would make it ironic if she has to become Lady of Winterfell at the end, a role which she never thought was meant for her (much like Ned had to become Lord of Winterfell when he never expected to do so).

Edited August 23, 2018 by Eyes High

onyxrose81 · August 23, 2018

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

It's not a fan theory. The text spells it out:

In Robb's view, Tyrion must "never" have the north. That wouldn't be the case if Sansa were merely bumped down in the succession. Sansa has quite clearly been disinherited in favour of Jon.

You know, fans have come up with all sorts of convoluted, laboured explanations for Sansa being disinherited is no big deal and doesn't matter at all and will never pose any obstacle to Sansa ending up with Winterfell, just as they have come up with various convoluted, laboured explanations for why Sansa and Tyrion's marriage doesn't matter at all and was a mere plot device and will have no bearing whatsoever on the endgame.

It's a failure to see the forest for the trees, in my opinion. In both instances.

Not necessarily.

...which would make it ironic if she has to become Lady of Winterfell at the end, a role which she never thought was meant for her (much like Ned had to become Lord of Winterfell when he never expected to do so).

ITA with your bolded. I don't harp on the failures of D&D as much as a lot of fans but this is where they ultimately failed the character of Arya. In the books she, much more than Sansa, knew the North. She spent time listening to Ned about ruling (sneaking around and not) and was very comfortable with the small folk. She was also much better at the actual ruling of a household than Sansa. It's indicated more clearly in the books that Arya's endgame is not possibly just to be an assassin or like some people want, to leave Westeros for parts unknown. Her whole arc is finding her way back to family, to reclaiming her identity as a Stark. It hasn't been touched upon really in the show.

domina89 · August 23, 2018

GrayArea on Youtube had an interesting video recently highlighting Sansa's various clothing over the years and how many of her costumes have bird or flying animal imagery. She thinks this is a hint that Sansa will become the Lady of the Eyrie and rule the Vale. I'm not sure if this will be true for the tv show, but I could see it happening in the books. I'm not so sure Lady of Winterfell is her endgame. There may not be a Winterfell to rule, after all...

OhOkayWhat · August 23, 2018

34 minutes ago, onyxrose81 said:

I don't harp on the failures of D&D as much as a lot of fans but this is where they ultimately failed the character of Arya. In the books she,...

They (Show!Arya and Book!Arya) are not (and never were) the same fictional beings, therefore that cannot be a reason to determine failure in the show writing.

Happy Harpy · August 23, 2018

50 minutes ago, domina89 said:

There may not be a Winterfell to rule, after all...

Indeed. WF is going down, it's one of the few certain facts we have. There might be one to rebuild, of course.

Maybe the Lord/Lady of Winterfell and KITN were separated on the show because it ultimately won't matter. "Raw and honest" could apply to the WW apocalypse, with entire kingdoms and their population wiped out. No more WF, no more North, no more 7 Kingdoms but a few hundred thousands of survivors (including refugees from all Westeros) left in KL.

Unless Bran retrieves a personality, reveals that Bran-Bot was a scam to push people away for their own protection, etc. in S8, I don't think he's going to rule anywhere.

I think Arya is going to survive and to get a "positive" ending, but what kind of positive is imo a wild card, anything in between unconventional lady and adventurer. I'd favor something circling back to home, family, and switching from revenge to justice.

Eyes High · August 23, 2018

58 minutes ago, domina89 said:

GrayArea on Youtube had an interesting video recently highlighting Sansa's various clothing over the years and how many of her costumes have bird or flying animal imagery. She thinks this is a hint that Sansa will become the Lady of the Eyrie and rule the Vale. I'm not sure if this will be true for the tv show, but I could see it happening in the books. I'm not so sure Lady of Winterfell is her endgame.

It's true that Book Sansa is getting a crash course not just in politics, as noted upthread, but in Vale politics. With that said, one would expect an endgame as Lady of the Eyrie would entail Sansa either marrying Sweetrobin or Harry the Heir, and the former has been reduced to a one-note joke in the show while the latter has been excised from the show altogether, so it seems unlikely that it will be her endgame either in the books or in the show, since I expect the main characters' endgames in the show and the books to match up.

6 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

Indeed. WF is going down, it's one of the few certain facts we have.

There were night shoot shots of the Winterfell set lit up like a Chistmas tree, but the Moneyglass exterior Winterfell set itself was never destroyed (unlike the towers and dome on the KL exterior set, which were pretty much totaled). I guess they could CGI in the destruction, though.

shireenbamfatheon · August 23, 2018

I wonder if the importance is connected to the wheel in some way. Dany's original desire to break the wheel was once again brought up by Tyrion last season, and since this show is as subtle as a sledgehammer, there's no way it doesn't get brought up again. Maybe Westeros dissolves the Iron Throne and goes back to independent kingdoms, maybe a Great Council with one member from each family is established, or hell maybe even elections of some kind (ugh), but I don't see how another Targaryen rule would defy the status quo or accomplish anything but reinforce that one super special family is destined to rule over an entire continent.

arty · August 23, 2018

5 hours ago, Eyes High said:

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Meanwhile, Arya in Season 7 is strutting around dressed like Ned, wearing her hair like Ned, telling anecdotes about Ned, and quoting Ned, while Sansa is outfitted in a sartorial mishmash of all her non-Stark influences

According to Michele Clapton, Bran is the only Stark in S7 whose costumes don't echo those of other Starks. In her episode 7.03 commentary, she says that Sansa's costumes are a combination of elements from both Ned and Cat's clothing and from her own experiences.

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

The show is very shippy when it comes to Sansa/Tyrion

I don't see any shippiness; since the end of S6 Tyrion has seemed like one of the many men "to love [Daenerys]." Nonetheless I've always enjoyed Sansa and Tyrion's dynamic, and their reunion is one I'm really looking forward to in S8.

5 hours ago, Advance35 said:

I actually don't think Sansa will be around, post AOTD

I think she's the most vulnerable of the remaining Starks, and if another Stark must die before the series ends, it's got to be her. But, for some time now I've thought that Sansa would survive because there are so many elements of life, rebirth and Spring in her narrative -- flowers, fertility, literally rebuilding Winterfell from the snow. Her favorite story is of Florian and Jonquil, two characters named after flowers, one of whom is named after the flower that marks the arrival of Spring. Maybe I'm grasping at weeds (ha!), but I just don't see the story telling us that Sansa is meant to die in the Winter.

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

which would make it ironic if she has to become Lady of Winterfell at the end, a role which she never thought was meant for her (much like Ned had to become Lord of Winterfell when he never expected to do so).

I think it would be poor storytelling. For several seasons, we've watched Jon and Dany, for example, learn, fail, try again, and succeed in their unexpected journeys towards ruling one group of people or another. I think that if Arya's destination in the story were to rule, we would have seen her learn to do so.

IMO, Bran has spent more time learning to rule than Arya has. And we've seen that he was good at being Lord of Winterfell, which is one of the many reasons why I would find it so sad if his story ends as a medieval computer of sorts. What was the point of his early seasons arc, and of giving him the most famous name of the North, the name of heroes and legends of not just the North but of the Stark family, the name of the founder of the Stark family, if he's to leave his home and family behind to commune with birds & trees for the rest of his days? I haven't seen much speculation about Bran's endgame here or elsewhere, but I'm taking hope in his statement to Meera that his memories of being Brandon Stark are obscured but not lost forever.

WindyNights · August 23, 2018

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

It's not a fan theory. The text spells it out:

In Robb's view, Tyrion must "never" have the north. That wouldn't be the case if Sansa were merely bumped down in the succession. Sansa has quite clearly been disinherited in favour of Jon.

You know, fans have come up with all sorts of convoluted, laboured explanations for Sansa being disinherited is no big deal and doesn't matter at all and will never pose any obstacle to Sansa ending up with Winterfell, just as they have come up with various convoluted, laboured explanations for why Sansa and Tyrion's marriage doesn't matter at all and was a mere plot device and will have no bearing whatsoever on the endgame.

It's a failure to see the forest for the trees, in my opinion. In both instances.

Not necessarily.

...which would make it ironic if she has to become Lady of Winterfell at the end, a role which she never thought was meant for her (much like Ned had to become Lord of Winterfell when he never expected to do so).

Doesn't require Sansa to be disinherited. It only requires for Jon to be named the explicit heir over Sansa.

You're looking for a twist where Sansa doesn't get to be Lady if Winterfell when there doesn't have to be one. You need a believable reason why Sansa would want to abdicate being ruling Lord of Winterfell with control over her own destiny to be go Tyrion's wife and Lady of Casterly Rock.

Happy Harpy · August 23, 2018

I was thinking of the range of the WW apocalypse, wiping out entire kingdoms, and a quote about the timeline/timejump/jetpack being even bigger in season S8 came back to me. (Vaguely. There was some "going from point A to point B when necessary" I think.)

And I wondered, could it be a hint that a couple of years pass between some episodes? For example, in the middle of the season, between the fall of WF and refugees getting to KL. The AOTD took seven years to reach the Wall, after all.

Edited August 23, 2018 by Happy Harpy

bubble sparkly · August 23, 2018

I think they will just ignore everything to do with realistic timelines, kind of like s7. Although it would be hysterical if Dany finds out she is pregnant in ep 2 and then in ep 3 she and Jon are suddenly running around after a toddler lol.

OhOkayWhat · August 23, 2018

42 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said:

I think they will just ignore everything to do with realistic timelines, kind of like s7

There is nothing unrealistic in s7 timelines because they are not clearly determined.

Eyes High · August 24, 2018

3 hours ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

I wonder if the importance is connected to the wheel in some way. Dany's original desire to break the wheel was once again brought up by Tyrion last season, and since this show is as subtle as a sledgehammer, there's no way it doesn't get brought up again.

The discussions of the wheel on the show have been so maddeningly vague that I have trouble believing it will amount to anything substantial in the end.

2 hours ago, arty said:

According to Michele Clapton, Bran is the only Stark in S7 whose costumes don't echo those of other Starks. In her episode 7.03 commentary, she says that Sansa's costumes are a combination of elements from both Ned and Cat's clothing and from her own experiences.

I don't see any shippiness; since the end of S6 Tyrion has seemed like one of the many men "to love [Daenerys]." Nonetheless I've always enjoyed Sansa and Tyrion's dynamic, and their reunion is one I'm really looking forward to in S8.

I think she's the most vulnerable of the remaining Starks, and if another Stark must die before the series ends, it's got to be her. But, for some time now I've thought that Sansa would survive because there are so many elements of life, rebirth and Spring in her narrative -- flowers, fertility, literally rebuilding Winterfell from the snow. Her favorite story is of Florian and Jonquil, two characters named after flowers, one of whom is named after the flower that marks the arrival of Spring. Maybe I'm grasping at weeds (ha!), but I just don't see the story telling us that Sansa is meant to die in the Winter.

I think it would be poor storytelling. For several seasons, we've watched Jon and Dany, for example, learn, fail, try again, and succeed in their unexpected journeys towards ruling one group of people or another. I think that if Arya's destination in the story were to rule, we would have seen her learn to do so.

IMO, Bran has spent more time learning to rule than Arya has. And we've seen that he was good at being Lord of Winterfell, which is one of the many reasons why I would find it so sad if his story ends as a medieval computer of sorts. What was the point of his early seasons arc, and of giving him the most famous name of the North, the name of heroes and legends of not just the North but of the Stark family, the name of the founder of the Stark family, if he's to leave his home and family behind to commune with birds & trees for the rest of his days? I haven't seen much speculation about Bran's endgame here or elsewhere, but I'm taking hope in his statement to Meera that his memories of being Brandon Stark are obscured but not lost forever.

Sansa’s dress in S7 reflects her own experiences much more than it reflects Ned or Cat. There’s a lot of Littlefinger, the Boltons and Margaery in her clothing, with the Northern accents—tiny wolf heads on a small neck collar—almost imperceptible.

I think the show is very shippy when it comes to Sansa/Tyrion, but mileage varies. I think no matter one’s feelings about the ship, we can all agree that their reunion is going to be interesting.

I agree that if another Stark dies, it’s likely to be Sansa. It would be downright cruel of D&D to give her Jeyne’s storyline knowing that they were going to kill her off. Part of me thinks that they wouldn’t have subjected Sansa to her S5 storyline unless they planned on giving her some happiness in the end, because otherwise it would be incredibly grim.

I wonder if 3ER Bran will lose his omniscience and become Bran again, because otherwise I don’t see much for him. Maybe he sacrifices his powers or something, I dunno. I can’t help but wonder if there’s anything to the fact that betting was suspended for the endgame ruler because too many people were betting on Bran. Bran being king in the end would be genuinely surprising, at least, and I do think that the endgame king and/or queen will be one of the original five.

54 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said:

I think they will just ignore everything to do with realistic timelines, kind of like s7. Although it would be hysterical if Dany finds out she is pregnant in ep 2 and then in ep 3 she and Jon are suddenly running around after a toddler lol.

I can’t find the source for it, but I could have sworn that GRRM in an interview said that individual chapters in TWOW would cover months and seemed to imply that TWOW would cover more ground chronologically than previous books. Maybe we’ll see something similar in S8. If /BoatsexBaby’s information is correct about a dragon/dragon Dany/NK fight in 8x06, I’m guessing Dany must have already given birth by that point, meaning we might have a small time jump at least during the season.

SimoneS · August 24, 2018

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

I can’t find the source for it, but I could have sworn that GRRM in an interview said that individual chapters in TWOW would cover months and seemed to imply that TWOW would cover more ground chronologically than previous books. Maybe we’ll see something similar in S8. If /BoatsexBaby’s information is correct about a dragon/dragon Dany/NK fight in 8x06, I’m guessing Dany must have already given birth by that point, meaning we might have a small time jump at least during the season.

Or Daenerys isn't pregnant as yet or is only a couple months pregnant by the end of the season.

ElizaD · August 24, 2018

On 8/23/2018 at 4:41 AM, Eyes High said:

On another note, I am now certain that Tyrion and Sansa will not only survive the show but will definitely end up together. I have officially been converted.

I can't say this won't happen because there are lots of arguments, but I'll find it just flat-out repulsive if GRRM rewrote outline Sansa's story to be all about learning to appreciate Tyrion's rapist dick because she deserves nothing better than being married for her claim and her hot tween body, while Tyrion gets his reward for raping a slave in ADWD in the form of the highborn virgin he wanted to rape back in ASOS. The show has cut all the nastiness of his character, but Sansa x Tyrion would still mean that her show storyline will be about her being raped as punishment so that she learns she was wrong to have rejected a man she didn't want. Talk about incel wet dreams indeed: the pretty girl is nothing more than a stupid bitch who exists to be raped and needed to be put in her place.

If Book Sansa accepts marriage to Tyrion, she'll be admitting she was wrong to ever think she could be more than a pretty bird or that it mattered whether she wanted the man she was given to, and Tyrion will have needed to learn nothing from the truth about Tysha's rape, his complicity in the plot to chain Sansa to her abusers through marital rape, the killing of Shae for laughing at him, and the rape of the nameless slave who didn't get the temporary respect he was willing to give highborn Sansa. If Show Sansa accepts the marriage, she'll be saying that she deserved to be raped and tortured by Ramsay for being stupid enough to reject the utterly chivalrous Tyrion - see what you get for saying no! Either way, Sansa the character will be reduced to nothing more than a trophy to be handed from one man to another, Joffrey/Littlefinger/Tyrion/Ramsay, until she gives up and admits that she's only there to be screwed. And since I believe the endings of the major characters will be the same in the books, I'll blame all this on GRRM for deciding it would be fun to write about Tyrion committing rape of his own free will when he already knew he intended Sansa to be stuck with a man she (apparently) had no right to refuse. As disgusting as it is that the show's spin will be Sansa being raped until she regrets being so uppity with Tyrion, ultimately it will have been GRRM's decision to say that Tyrion doesn't deserve any karmic punishment for agreeing to one rape and actually committing another, that he will be given the exact same highborn virgin he chose to see as nothing more than a piece of flesh that he began to resent when she didn't give him sex in response to his empty compliments.

That "important" quote sounds like nonsense hype. The wheel is broken and Westeros is an insta-democracy? Great, now you need to pick up the pieces and build various (and thus far totally absent from GRRM's worldbuilding) structures that will sustain the new society so that it doesn't descend to the anarchy that has followed so many revolutions. We're all doomed if we listen to the Cerseis of the world and don't work together against the Night's King? Breaking news.

Happy Harpy · August 24, 2018

1 hour ago, ElizaD said:

I can't say this won't happen because there are lots of arguments, but I'll find it just flat-out repulsive if GRRM rewrote outline Sansa's story to be all about learning to appreciate Tyrion's rapist dick because she deserves nothing better than being married for her claim and her hot tween body, while Tyrion gets his reward for raping a slave in ADWD in the form of the highborn virgin he wanted to rape back in ASOS. The show has cut all the nastiness of his character, but Sansa x Tyrion would still mean that her show storyline will be about her being raped as punishment so that she learns she was wrong to have rejected a man she didn't want. Talk about incel wet dreams indeed: the pretty girl is nothing more than a stupid bitch who exists to be raped and needed to be put in her place.

I don't see how Sansa growing to appreciate someone's qualities beyond their physique would make her a stupid bitch. I don't see how maybe developing an attraction to Tyrion years later would make her wrong from rejecting him back then. I don't see how freely choosing to be with any man she wants -operative words, freely choosing, she wants, at that time, in that place- would amount to being "put in her place".

Sansa and Tyrion began to bond long before she was married to Ramsay. If she's grateful to Tyrion for respecting her on their wedding night, this feeling was born on that very night and not when she married Ramsay. She certainly regretted that Ramsay wasn't Tyrion and appreciated the latter's gesture more; it certainly made her realize that being married to Tyrion wasn't that bad. But there's a world between "not that bad" when you don't have a choice, and "free to choose" like Sansa would be in S8. Being grateful has nothing to do with being in love or attracted to someone, and being raped doesn't make you want or love every guy who respected you. If, for example, Sansa chose to remarry Tyrion in a marriage of interest with someone she sees as a friend and she feels safe with, it wouldn't be because Ramsay raped her, but because Tyrion didn't -and it would work in the books, too, where Sansa/Ramsay doesn't exist so both are irrelevant to each other. Imo, Sansa being given Jeyne's storyline was mostly about her huge mistake of putting her life and her safety in the hands of Littlefinger, and nothing to do with Tyrion.

Sansa might be pretty, but she was above all shallow. Like Jaime. No one seem to think that falling for an "ugly"* woman is a kind of punishment for Jaime, so I don't see how falling for an "ugly" man would be a punishment for Sansa. Or even misogynistic, since in that respect, Jaime and Sansa would go through the same character development.

I think there are good chances that Sansa x Tyrion end up "together", OTOH I don't think there is a chance of physical relations or love but in a long while. Sansa and her husband would mirror Ned and Catelyn's marriage, who learned to love each other; except that honorable Ned, who was in love with someone else, "raped" (by our modern standards) virgin Catelyn, who certainly didn't want him since she was mourning his brother, on their wedding night.

Of course, if Sansa and Tyrion were forced to remarry, I would have a completely different outlook; but it's about as likely as Jonsa or Zommen, imho.

*ugly on paper, of course, since Gwen and Peter are both gorgeous. And of course you hate the idea, well, you hate the idea, I discuss my outlook on the arguments you gave, I don't question your feelings.

Edited August 24, 2018 by Happy Harpy

Eyes High · August 24, 2018

6 hours ago, ElizaD said:

I can't say this won't happen because there are lots of arguments, but I'll find it just flat-out repulsive if GRRM rewrote outline Sansa's story to be all about learning to appreciate Tyrion's rapist dick because she deserves nothing better than being married for her claim and her hot tween body

That's your view of Tyrion, not GRRM's, and Tyrion, no matter what he does, is ultimately GRRM's baby: a member of the OG5 (as homieprezcomey on /Freefolk calls them) guaranteed safe passage through the books, his self-insert, the character he apparently wishes he could be like, and his undisputed favourite.

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while Tyrion gets his reward for raping a slave in ADWD in the form of the highborn virgin he wanted to rape back in ASOS.

GRRM already rewarded Tyrion with Sansa back in ASOS. He also seems to have planned on them being married for the five year gap. Five years! The writing's been on the wall for quite some time.

As for your other complaints about the optics of Sansa ending up with Tyrion after being forcibly married off to him in the first place and previously rejecting him, I wouldn't expect progressive messaging about relationships from the guy who seems to think that Dany/Drogo and Jon/Ygritte are great romances.

4 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

I don't see how Sansa growing to appreciate someone's qualities beyond their physique would make her a stupid bitch. I don't see how maybe developing an attraction to Tyrion years later would make her wrong from rejecting him back then.

Exactly. The circumstances would be vastly different.

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I think there are good chances that Sansa x Tyrion end up "together", OTOH I don't think there is a chance of physical relations or love but in a long while. Sansa and her husband would mirror Ned and Catelyn's marriage, who learned to love each other

Agreed. The show drew what seems to have been a very striking parallel between Tyrion putting a stop to his bedding by threatening to geld Joffrey and Ned putting a stop to his bedding by threatening to break someone's jaw, something Ned didn't do in the books, in back-to-back episodes. That has rather obvious implications, in my opinion.

Edited August 24, 2018 by Eyes High

WindyNights · August 24, 2018

7 hours ago, Eyes High said:

GRRM already rewarded Tyrion with Sansa back in ASOS. He also seems to have planned on them being married for the five year gap. Five years! The writing's been on the wall for quite some time.

A reward that he couldn't enjoy and made him miserable because Sansa would not give him what he wanted.

Also think about this for a second. If as you believe that GRRM was being truthful when he said that the endgame for the main 5 hasn't changed from its conception then Sansa wouldn't end up with Tyrion as there is no hint of that in the outline. Tyrion is linked to Arya rather than Sansa who may or may not have died in the outline.

If Tyrion's endgame is to be with Sansa then his endgame has changed.

10 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

I don't see how Sansa growing to appreciate someone's qualities beyond their physique would make her a stupid bitch. I don't see how maybe developing an attraction to Tyrion years later would make her wrong from rejecting him back then. I don't see how freely choosing to be with any man she wants -operative words, freely choosing, she wants, at that time, in that place- would amount to being "put in her place".

Sansa and Tyrion began to bond long before she was married to Ramsay. If she's grateful to Tyrion for respecting her on their wedding night, this feeling was born on that very night and not when she married Ramsay. She certainly regretted that Ramsay wasn't Tyrion and appreciated the latter's gesture more; it certainly made her realize that being married to Tyrion wasn't that bad. But there's a world between "not that bad" when you don't have a choice, and "free to choose" like Sansa would be in S8. Being grateful has nothing to do with being in love or attracted to someone, and being raped doesn't make you want or love every guy who respected you. If, for example, Sansa chose to remarry Tyrion in a marriage of interest with someone she sees as a friend and she feels safe with, it wouldn't be because Ramsay raped her, but because Tyrion didn't -and it would work in the books, too, where Sansa/Ramsay doesn't exist so both are irrelevant to each other. Imo, Sansa being given Jeyne's storyline was mostly about her huge mistake of putting her life and her safety in the hands of Littlefinger, and nothing to do with Tyrion.

Sansa might be pretty, but she was above all shallow. Like Jaime. No one seem to think that falling for an "ugly"* woman is a kind of punishment for Jaime, so I don't see how falling for an "ugly" man would be a punishment for Sansa. Or even misogynistic, since in that respect, Jaime and Sansa would go through the same character development.

I think there are good chances that Sansa x Tyrion end up "together", OTOH I don't think there is a chance of physical relations or love but in a long while. Sansa and her husband would mirror Ned and Catelyn's marriage, who learned to love each other; except that honorable Ned, who was in love with someone else, "raped" (by our modern standards) virgin Catelyn, who certainly didn't want him since she was mourning his brother, on their wedding night.

Of course, if Sansa and Tyrion were forced to remarry, I would have a completely different outlook; but it's about as likely as Jonsa or Zommen, imho.

*ugly on paper, of course, since Gwen and Peter are both gorgeous. And of course you hate the idea, well, you hate the idea, I discuss my outlook on the arguments you gave, I don't question your feelings.

Eh....from a book perspective, Sansa holds no real affection for Tyrion and Tyrion views Sansa as a backstabber for abandoning him to be blame for Joffrey's death.

Like Tyrion literally thinks Sansa was false like Shae:

Penny: Was she your wife? She … she was very beautiful …"

Tyrion: And false. Sansa, Shae, all my women … Tysha was the only one who ever loved me.

Also, ADWD Tyrion considers Tysha not Sansa to be his true wife:

What do you miss, Halfman?"

Jaime, thought Tyrion. Shae. Tysha. My wife, I miss my wife, the wife I hardly knew.

This is not set up for Sansa x Tyrion.

Eyes High · August 24, 2018

1 hour ago, WindyNights said:

A reward that he couldn't enjoy and made him miserable because Sansa would not give him what he wanted.

Also think about this for a second. If as you believe that GRRM was being truthful when he said that the endgame for the main 5 hasn't changed from its conception then Sansa wouldn't end up with Tyrion as there is no hint of that in the outline. Tyrion is linked to Arya rather than Sansa who may or may not have died in the outline.

Maybe, maybe not. The outline actually connects Tyrion and Sansa ("Each of the contending families will learn that it has a member of dubious loyalty in its midst (...) Sansa Stark, wed to Joffrey Baratheon will (...) Tyrion, meanwhile, will...") and states that Tyrion befriends both Arya and Sansa. Outline Tyrion falls madly in love with Arya, which apparently goes nowhere, but assuming Outline Sansa was supposed to survive, maybe they were always intended to end up together.

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Eh....from a book perspective, Sansa holds no real affection for Tyrion and Tyrion views Sansa as a backstabber for abandoning him to be blame for Joffrey's death.

A popular interpretation of Sansa and Tyrion's views of each other, to be sure, but in my opinion, it's a lazy one. I'll stick to Tyrion's views of Sansa for now, though.

Sure, Tyrion starts off decently pissed at Sansa, thus his "false" label, but Tyrion also thinks of Sansa in ADWD, two chapters past the "false" passage, as "the child bride he had wed and lost," a very flowery, romantic description, and not, notably, "the liar who let him take the fall for murder and left him to die," which at least would be somewhat accurate. Tyrion didn't "lose" Sansa, after all--she abandoned him and left him to die in KL--but that's how he thinks of her. You can see that over the course of ADWD he is thawing towards Sansa and thinking fondly of her, as in the same passage where he thinks of Sansa as the child bride he wed and lost, he reflects on how Penny's trusting nature reminds him of Sansa...which kind of sounds like Jaime saying in AFFC that "innocence" is what he likes in a woman.

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Also, ADWD Tyrion considers Tysha not Sansa to be his true wife: (...)

Jaime, thought Tyrion. Shae. Tysha. My wife, I miss my wife, the wife I hardly knew.

A popular interpretation of this passage, but again, it's a lazy one in my opinion. I think that this sentence, which is the last reference to Tysha and Jaime in ADWD, is one of GRRM's biggest ASOIAF Sansa/Tyrion endgame hints. Look very closely at the punctuation:

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Jaime. Shae. Tysha. My wife, I miss my wife, the wife I hardly knew.

All the names in the list are separated by period. There's a period and not a comma between "Tysha" and "my wife," meaning he's referring to someone other than Tysha; otherwise it would read "Tysha, my wife, I miss my wife, the wife I hardly knew," etc. etc. Tyrion is referring to Sansa here, not Tysha.

And if you think he couldn't possibly be talking about Sansa here, since he has no reason to miss her, note that he mentions Jaime as well in that list, someone he dreams of murdering earlier in ADWD, as well as Shae, someone he actually did murder, so...

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This is not set up for Sansa x Tyrion.

It is, in my opinion, provided you pay very close attention. It's more subtle than the show, where you've got shit like Sansa saying "I just do" when Littlefinger asks her how she knows that Tyrion is innocent and Tyrion taking Sansa's hand during the Robb portion of the dwarf play, but it's there.

Frankly, I'm surprised more fans haven't realized the implications of GRRM planning to keep Tyrion and Sansa married for five years, which seems to have been the case. To me, that says it all.

Edited August 24, 2018 by Eyes High

Happy Harpy · August 24, 2018

1 hour ago, WindyNights said:

Eh....from a book perspective, Sansa holds no real affection for Tyrion and Tyrion views Sansa as a backstabber for abandoning him to be blame for Joffrey's death.

The books can offer perspective indeed, but this discussion is mainly about the show. The show, where Tyrion doesn't blame Sansa one bit, and Sansa states several times he's been kind to her. They also both "just know" the other isn't a murderer after Joffrey kicked the bucket.

I'm speculating about S8 so when there's a divergence, it's the show version I use as a basis.

Edited August 24, 2018 by Happy Harpy

shireenbamfatheon · August 24, 2018

Sansa had already learned to look beyond people's physicalities, ugly and beautiful, long before her marriage to Tyrion. It was a major part of her arc in the earlier books and a development that already took place in the first book/second season via her interactions and relationship to the Hound. Before her marriage to Tyrion, she'd already shown kindness and compassion to everyone she interacted with in King's Landing, and book!Sansa barely cared about Willas being a cripple. She's reached a point where she just wants to be with someone who wants her for her, not her claim or her looks, neither of which book!Tyrion is able to look beyond. And truth be told, Tyrion doesn't deserve a "hot" girlfriend/trophy wife given his own ridiculously shallow and misogynistic view of women and his expectations of them. Show!Sansa, contrary to her book counterpart, seems to just not be interested in romance or marriage anymore, and Tyrion in the show has never considered her more than a child. They even doubled down on her naivety and childlikeness in season three just to stress that Tyrion had no romantic or sexual interest in her. I just don't see the show or the books heading down that path.

On 23/8/2018 at 10:36 PM, arty said:

IMO, Bran has spent more time learning to rule than Arya has. And we've seen that he was good at being Lord of Winterfell, which is one of the many reasons why I would find it so sad if his story ends as a medieval computer of sorts. What was the point of his early seasons arc, and of giving him the most famous name of the North, the name of heroes and legends of not just the North but of the Stark family, the name of the founder of the Stark family, if he's to leave his home and family behind to commune with birds & trees for the rest of his days? I haven't seen much speculation about Bran's endgame here or elsewhere, but I'm taking hope in his statement to Meera that his memories of being Brandon Stark are obscured but not lost forever.

This is how I felt too until the latest season We spent an entire book/show with Bran learning how to rule and he was really quite successful at it. He listened to counsel, learned patience, was courteous and kind, diplomatic and observant, and understood the intricacies of ruling a land, and not just the fun stuff but also the really boring stuff too. There was too much paper dedicated to showing him actually learning to become a ruler for it to go absolutely nowhere and have no bearing on the plot, unless it's to showcase his missed potential and make his story all the more tragic. Bran's really the one character who's never had any real happiness since the start of the series. Even his super magical powers have destroyed any semblance of individuality he has and robbed him of the actual joy of enjoying those powers. Tying him to the weirwood network without any chance of returning to who he used to be would just be ridiculously cruel. Unfortunately, that's where I think the show is heading and I don't think they care much about him to delve into the tragedy of it.

Eyes High · August 24, 2018

3 hours ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

She's reached a point where she just wants to be with someone who wants her for her, not her claim or her looks, neither of which book!Tyrion is able to look beyond.

Her looks? Book Sansa's totally fine with being loved for her looks. Heck, she giggles at how pretty she looks in her new gown in ASOS, thinking Willas is going to love her when he sees her in it. On the other hand, it is true that she doesn't want to be loved for her claim, but fortunately, once Robb's will gets out, she won't have to worry about her claim to Winterfell being a problem anymore. Another of GRRM's "Be careful what you wish for" little cruelties.

It’s also untrue in my opinion that Book Tyrion can’t look past Sansa’s claim or her looks. He admires Sansa’s charm and ease at the PW, and thinks that Sansa would have made Joffrey a fine queen and a better wife had Joffrey had the “sense” to love her.

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And truth be told, Tyrion doesn't deserve a "hot" girlfriend/trophy wife given his own ridiculously shallow and misogynistic view of women and his expectations of them.

Your view of what Tyrion deserves is irrelevant to his endgame, though. It's GRRM's view of Tyrion that matters, and Tyrion is his unquestioned favourite.

With that said, even if we agree that Tyrion and Sansa didn’t deserve to be married off to each other in the first place, which seems an uncontroversial statement, it is nonetheless true that GRRM married them off regardless and has every apparent intention of keeping them married for quite some time, so it hardly matters whether they deserve it in any event. GRRM didn't and doesn't care whether they deserve the marriage, since he went ahead and married them off, so why should you?

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They even doubled down on her naivety and childlikeness in season three just to stress that Tyrion had no romantic or sexual interest in her.

TV Tyrion definitely wanted Sansa. Bronn (resident truthsayer in the show) said as much in 3x07 ("You want to fuck that Stark girl"), and D&D have agreed.

TV Shae also accused Tyrion on multiple occasions of wanting Sansa. Since TV Tyrion has been celibate since he married Sansa, even when offered free sex with a pretty, sweet prostitute, there's probably something to that. In the show, Tyrion in response to Sansa implying that she would never want him said “And so my watch begins” and seems to have stuck to it, either consciously as when he refuses Oberyn’s suggestion in the brothel or (in the case of the S5 prostitute) subconsciously. We can joke about TV Tyrion saving himself for Sansa or whatever, but...he kind of is?

Book Tyrion had romantic interest at the very least in Sansa; he would have fallen deeply in love with her if she had given him the slightest hope (which she was disinclined to give him for obvious reasons). As for TV Tyrion, he didn't show romantic interest, but I do think D&D did a good job of showing that Tyrion had very strong feelings towards Sansa of protectiveness, concern, respect, etc. while keeping everything necessarily vague and maintaining plausible deniability given Sansa's age at the time and Tyrion's relationship with Shae. I remember around S3/S4 the actors and writers emphasized that Sansa and Tyrion's relationship was not one of romantic love, but of mutual trust and respect. Even the HBO official bio of Sansa Stark said something to the effect that she was married to Tyrion, who had treated her with the utmost respect (or something to that effect). So while it wasn't romantic, the writers certainly wanted to make it clear that there was a basis of mutual trust and respect there to work from, at least at the beginning of Season 4. Judging from Season 7, that trust and respect still seems to be there in some form: Tyrion praises Sansa's intelligence, and Sansa while not trusting Tyrion acknowledges that Tyrion is a good man who always treated her kindly, #notalllannisters. So if Tyrion and Sansa are going to end up together, D&D have definitely put the work in in the early seasons to make that kind of connection believable when they reunite.

As for Sansa having lost interest in marriage and romance, which I agree seems to be the case at the moment, Dany went from despairing in 6x10 about her lack of genuine feelings for Daario to falling madly in love in Jon in the space of six episodes, so there is time for her to change her mind, particularly given that Tyrion and Sansa have a preexisting relationship with warm feelings on both sides. (Sansa expressing positive feelings towards anyone these days is quite something, considering her frequent frustration with or even contempt towards pretty much everybody else in S7.)

Edited August 25, 2018 by Eyes High

WindyNights · August 25, 2018

17 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

The books can offer perspective indeed, but this discussion is mainly about the show. The show, where Tyrion doesn't blame Sansa one bit, and Sansa states several times he's been kind to her. They also both "just know" the other isn't a murderer after Joffrey kicked the bucket.

I'm speculating about S8 so when there's a divergence, it's the show version I use as a basis.

The endgame will broadly be the same. If both the show and books are pointing toward the same thing in terms of endgame then that's probably where it's leading but if the books one way and you're saying the show is pointing another then it's probable that some of the clues were misread.

WindyNights · August 25, 2018

17 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Maybe, maybe not. The outline actually connects Tyrion and Sansa ("Each of the contending families will learn that it has a member of dubious loyalty in its midst (...) Sansa Stark, wed to Joffrey Baratheon will (...) Tyrion, meanwhile, will...") and states that Tyrion befriends both Arya and Sansa. Outline Tyrion falls madly in love with Arya, which apparently goes nowhere, but assuming Outline Sansa was supposed to survive, maybe they were always intended to end up together.

A popular interpretation of Sansa and Tyrion's views of each other, to be sure, but in my opinion, it's a lazy one. I'll stick to Tyrion's views of Sansa for now, though.

Sure, Tyrion starts off decently pissed at Sansa, thus his "false" label, but Tyrion also thinks of Sansa in ADWD, two chapters past the "false" passage, as "the child bride he had wed and lost," a very flowery, romantic description, and not, notably, "the liar who let him take the fall for murder and left him to die," which at least would be somewhat accurate. Tyrion didn't "lose" Sansa, after all--she abandoned him and left him to die in KL--but that's how he thinks of her. You can see that over the course of ADWD he is thawing towards Sansa and thinking fondly of her, as in the same passage where he thinks of Sansa as the child bride he wed and lost, he reflects on how Penny's trusting nature reminds him of Sansa...which kind of sounds like Jaime saying in AFFC that "innocence" is what he likes in a woman.

A popular interpretation of this passage, but again, it's a lazy one in my opinion. I think that this sentence, which is the last reference to Tysha and Jaime in ADWD, is one of GRRM's biggest ASOIAF Sansa/Tyrion endgame hints. Look very closely at the punctuation:

All the names in the list are separated by period. There's a period and not a comma between "Tysha" and "my wife," meaning he's referring to someone other than Tysha; otherwise it would read "Tysha, my wife, I miss my wife, the wife I hardly knew," etc. etc. Tyrion is referring to Sansa here, not Tysha.

And if you think he couldn't possibly be talking about Sansa here, since he has no reason to miss her, note that he mentions Jaime as well in that list, someone he dreams of murdering earlier in ADWD, as well as Shae, someone he actually did murder, so...

It is, in my opinion, provided you pay very close attention. It's more subtle than the show, where you've got shit like Sansa saying "I just do" when Littlefinger asks her how she knows that Tyrion is innocent and Tyrion taking Sansa's hand during the Robb portion of the dwarf play, but it's there.

Frankly, I'm surprised more fans haven't realized the implications of GRRM planning to keep Tyrion and Sansa married for five years, which seems to have been the case. To me, that says it all.

On innocence, Tyrion doesn't like innocence. It frustrates him how innocent Penny is. Hell, Penny's innocent qualities almost cause him to kill her:

Tyrion wrenched away from her. "I'm frightened."Those were the same words Shae had used. Her eyes were big as eggs, and I swallowed every bit of it. I knew what she was. I told Bronn to find a woman for me and he brought me Shae. His hands curled into fists, and Shae's face swam before him, grinning. Then the chain was tightening about her throat, the golden hands digging deep into her flesh as her own hands fluttered against his face with all the force of butterflies. If he'd had a chain to hand...if he'd had a crossbow, a dagger, anything, he would have...he might have...he...It was only then that Tyrion heard the shouts. He was lost in a black rage, drowning in a sea of memory, but the shouting brought the world back in a rush. He opened his hands, took a breath, turned away from Penny.

------

My wife is a descriptor of Tysha.

Tysha. My wife, the wife I hardly knew.

could read the same as

Tysha, my wife, the wife I hardly knew.

Shae and Jaime are two people that Tyrion loved greatly at one point same with Tysha.

Sansa isn't. He wanted her to like him but he never loved her.

WindyNights · August 25, 2018

Game of thrones won't air until April 28th at the earliest and may have a summer release.

http://watchersonthewall.com/season-8-may-not-air-until-summer-2019-prequel-pilot-production-date-revealed/

Also on the ending:

Now that we’re done talking about when the series might end, let’s talk about how it could end.

“I thought it was really brave,” Bauer said of the ending of the series. “I thought it’d be interesting to see. It’s very true to what ‘Thrones’ is, and knowing how it ends, I don’t actually see how it could end any other way.

“I think the whole series has aimed toward this. I obviously can’t say what it is. I think there will be divisions because people have grown to identify and like and hate various characters, so everybody has their version of how they want it to end based on those things, but looking at it objectively, I think the way it ends is the way it must end, so I’m just going to leave it at that.”

nikma · August 25, 2018

The way he and rest described the ending just doesn't sound like Dany and Jon together at all.

WindyNights · August 25, 2018

3 hours ago, nikma said:

The way he and rest described the ending just doesn't sound like Dany and Jon together at all.

Yep. The thread on this at r/freefolk Have posters jumping back to Daenerys dies and are pissed about it.

whatever the case, I think it's clear that the ending will be controversial and you have to be prepared to not like it.

shireenbamfatheon · August 25, 2018

On 25/8/2018 at 12:48 AM, Eyes High said:

Her looks? Book Sansa's totally fine with being loved for her looks. Heck, she giggles at how pretty she looks in her new gown in ASOS, thinking Willas is going to love her when he sees her in it. On the other hand, it is true that she doesn't want to be loved for her claim, but fortunately, once Robb's will gets out, she won't have to worry about her claim to Winterfell being a problem anymore. Another of GRRM's "Be careful what you wish for" little cruelties.

Wanting to be considered beautiful is hardly being incapable of seeing beyond others' looks or even being vain. Most female characters in the books appreciate pretty things; that doesn't mean that's all there is to them. If she only wanted people to judge for her looks and to judge others for their looks, then she'd be shallow. And Sansa's changed a great deal from who she was at the beginning of aSoS to who she's become in the sample chapter. Sansa's claim will matter as long as she's a Stark and that's never going to change. And judging by her arc on the show, it'll absolutely matter to some degree. I don't see why Sansa has to be punished for her earlier vanity by being married off to some hideous, abusive man, while Tyrion, who's a great deal more shallow at a much older age, is to be rewarded because the author likes him? I have more faith in GRRM's skill as a writer.

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Another of GRRM's "Be careful what you wish for" little cruelties.

Ok, then why does Tyrion get what he wants? A pretty, passive, obedient wife and a castle to rule over so he can be respected and the envy of everyone, exactly what he's craved since the beginning of the series? Because he's one of GRRM's favorites?

Tyrion is part envious and part impressed by the natural charm Sansa exudes, but it's all just an extension of the ladylike qualities which she's been taught since a kid that he appreciates. Qualities he appreciates in her when he envisions her as his loving wife or/and he wishes for himself. Most of those qualities have so far bitten her in the ass and she's only just learning to yield them like a weapon rather than a defense mechanism (speaking of the books).

Your view of what Tyrion deserves is also equally irrelevant, though I think it's strange to suggest that Sansa's entire arc is building towards her being a trophy wife because Tyrion is the author's favorite, even though GRRM hasn't hesitated to delve into Tyrion's core personality in all its misogynistic glory. So what exactly is the lesson here? That an 11-year-old girl is a shallow bitch who needs to be put in her place by being married off as a consolation prize to an older, hideous, and cruel abuser as a punishment? That's one hell of an end to her arc.

Conversely, who's talking about whether Sansa deserved her marriage to Tyrion? Clearly, it serves a plot point and will have an important part to play in her arc in the Vale (and it keeps her momentarily protected since LF can't rush his plans); the disagreement is on whether it'll serve as an endgame for them and what that possible endgame says about the characters and their role in the series, which, again, seems to be more than just Real Desperate Housewife of Casterly Rock.

Of course, there's mutual trust and respect between Sansa and Tyrion, a great deviation from the books, given how Tyrion has been written in the show. There's no way they'd have written their relationship the way it was presented in the books because it showed Tyrion in a negative light. This is the same character who was offered free sex by a sex slave out of the blue because he said something kind to her.

Dany's lack of love for Daario just made it easier for her to move on to Jon. Sansa hasn't shown interest in anyone since Loras, and seems to be doing better than ever before now that she's no longer forced to serve as an accessory for some lord. Why would the natural resolution to her arc be for her to abandon her home and everything familiar, and the only place she has a semblance of power, to go live with Tyrion in Casterly Rock because he was kind to her in King's Landing? By that logic, she has just as much of a chance of ending up with the Hound, which for some reason is considered less likely on these boards. (Not that I think she'll end up with him on the show either).

Edited August 26, 2018 by shireenbamfatheon

nikma · August 25, 2018

I agree. I now think that she will die. I thought that before S7, but her pregnancy changed my mind. But now all these reactions from the cast and crew and Emilia forced me to return to my original prediction.

And this post from free folk convinced me even more.

Quote

Jonerys shippers are happy about the baby but the reality is that from a narrative point it's not needed at this stage of the story unless:

1) The baby is magical and is the solution to all the problems (which is shitty writing at it's lower)

2)The baby needs to be born now because one or both parents will not survive the series.

It's literally a "pick your poison" situation.

shireenbamfatheon · August 25, 2018

4 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Game of thrones won't air until April 28th at the earliest and may have a summer release.

http://watchersonthewall.com/season-8-may-not-air-until-summer-2019-prequel-pilot-production-date-revealed/

Also on the ending:

Brave, huh? That's pretty interesting.

Happy Harpy · August 25, 2018

Cersei is going to end up not dead and ruling.

This is the thing that would REALLY piss me off, and I'm beginning to believe this is what will happen.

Imo, they should stop running their mouths unless they have concrete material to show, and remember they have spinoffs to sell.

glowbug · August 25, 2018

Dany may or may not die but I think it's more likely than not that the baby will be born either way. I'm going back to MMD's book prophecy/curse. I think the prophecy is coming true in the books and Dany bearing a living child is the last condition that needs to be satisfied. If Dany has a baby in the books she'll likely have a baby in the show too. I was leaning towards Dany dying in the end based on the book prophecy (Drogo returning meaning he returns to her when she dies) but I'm not convinced that this leak is fake. The filming spoilers were consistent with the leak so I'm leaning toward it being true, though I'm not convinced it is and wouldn't be shocked if it turned out to be fake.

Wouter · August 25, 2018

6 hours ago, WindyNights said:

My wife is a descriptor of Tysha.

Tysha. My wife, the wife I hardly knew.

could read the same as

Tysha, my wife, the wife I hardly knew.

Shae and Jaime are two people that Tyrion loved greatly at one point same with Tysha.

Sansa isn't. He wanted her to like him but he never loved her.

Like Eyes High, I have the other interpretation. I suspect GRRM has Tyrion thinking about Sansa without making it obvious.

At the least, the statement is ambiguous. Not only is there the period/comma thing (grammatically at least, the suggestion is that "my wife" is not the same person as Tysha, but rather a fourth person in his list besides Tysha, Jaime and Shae - Jaime isn't mentioned a second time as "my brother" nor is Shae getting a second mention with a descriptor), Tyrion even feels out the need to specify which wife he is talking about ("the one I hardly knew"). It doesnt help much because he arguably didn't know either Sansa or Tysha well, but I tend to think he knew Tysha somewhat better than Sansa (who gave him the cold shoulder and never showed her cards during her time with him).

I do expect something to come out of this in the book (at the least, the marriage will have to be addressed in the books at some point), and by extension in S8. I doubt it will be Tyrion in charge of Winterfell, though.

Edited August 25, 2018 by Wouter

WindyNights · August 25, 2018

1 hour ago, Wouter said:

Like Eyes High, I have the other interpretation. I suspect GRRM has Tyrion thinking about Sansa without making it obvious.

At the least, the statement is ambiguous. Not only is there the period/comma thing (grammatically at least, the suggestion is that "my wife" is not the same person as Tysha, but rather a fourth person in his list besides Tysha, Jaime and Shae - Jaime isn't mentioned a second time as "my brother" nor is Shae getting a second mention with a descriptor), Tyrion even feels out the need to specify which wife he is talking about ("the one I hardly knew"). It doesnt help much because he arguably didn't know either Sansa or Tysha well, but I tend to think he knew Tysha somewhat better than Sansa (who gave him the cold shoulder and never showed her cards during her time with him).

I do expect something to come out of this in the book (at the least, the marriage will have to be addressed in the books at some point), and by extension in S8. I doubt it will be Tyrion in charge of Winterfell, though.

That would be because Shae and Jaime betrayed him while Tysha never did. More emphasis is placed on my wife because Tyrion's inner world revolves around her which is a reason why it makes no sense for it to be Sansa that he's talking about.

3 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

Cersei is going to end up not dead and ruling.

This is the thing that would REALLY piss me off, and I'm beginning to believe this is what will happen.

Imo, they should stop running their mouths unless they have concrete material to show, and remember they have spinoffs to sell.

Not gonna happen, don't worry. She already has a prophecy over her head that explicitly says she's going to die.

GraceK · August 25, 2018

6 hours ago, nikma said:

The way he and rest described the ending just doesn't sound like Dany and Jon together at all.

What’s interview is this? Link ?

bubble sparkly · August 25, 2018

That quote suggests a Jon death more than a Dany death imo. Although, once again, I think it’s hard to really gauge anything from a vague interview. “Brave” could just as easily it’s a happy “Disney” ending where all the good guys live and an aunt and her nephew get married and have a baby.

Eyes High · August 26, 2018

As someone observed on /Freefolk, "brave" sure sounds a lot like code for "a lot of people are going to hate the ending."

On 2018-08-25 at 11:34 AM, WindyNights said:

On innocence, Tyrion doesn't like innocence. It frustrates him how innocent Penny is.

In the passage where he's reflecting on Sansa, he thinks that sometimes he envied Penny's "pretty dreams," so while there is exasperation, there is a fondness there as well.

Quote

My wife is a descriptor of Tysha.

No, it's a descriptor of Sansa. GRRM would have punctuated it differently otherwise, and if Tyrion misses Jaime and Shae, who screwed him over, then it means that he can miss Sansa as well.

On 2018-08-25 at 3:56 PM, shireenbamfatheon said:

Wanting to be considered beautiful is hardly being incapable of seeing beyond others' looks or even being vain.

You claimed that Sansa doesn't want to be loved for her looks, something that has no basis in the text.

Quote

Ok, then why does Tyrion get what he wants?

You said it: Tyrion is GRRM's favourite, and Sansa is not. In fact, GRRM's favourite female character is Arya, someone who is implied to be Sansa's opposite, so, you know, do the math.

Quote

Tyrion is part envious and part impressed by the natural charm Sansa exudes

Charm and ease in social situations have nothing to do with her beauty, though, which you claimed Tyrion can't see beyond, a claim that has no basis in the text.

Quote

I think it's strange to suggest that Sansa's entire arc is building towards her being a trophy wife because Tyrion is the author's favorite, even though GRRM hasn't hesitated to delve into Tyrion's core personality in all its misogynistic glory. So what exactly is the lesson here? That an 11-year-old girl is a shallow bitch who needs to be put in her place by being married off as a consolation prize to an older, hideous, and cruel abuser as a punishment? That's one hell of an end to her arc.

Your perspective, which seems to be the perspective of someone who loathes Tyrion, is worth absolutely nothing when it comes to predicting his book endgame, since it's someone who adores Tyrion and who views him, rightly or wrongly, as someone he wishes he could be is writing the ending.

You want to know what happens to Tyrion in the end? Get out of your head and into GRRM's head, the head of someone who loves Tyrion as much as you seem to hate him, and loves him far more than he will ever love Sansa.

And if your only argument against endgame Tyrion/Sansa, apart from "It would suck and I would hate it" which is not an argument by the way, boils down to a claim that Sansa ending up with Tyrion would be a disservice to her arc, that seems to me an implicit admission that you don't have anything more substantial in the way of counterargument.

Lastly, if you have a problem with GRRM turning Sansa into Tyrion’s trophy wife and consolation prize, I hate to tell you, but it has already happened.

Quote

Of course, there's mutual trust and respect between Sansa and Tyrion, a great deviation from the books, given how Tyrion has been written in the show. There's no way they'd have written their relationship the way it was presented in the books because it showed Tyrion in a negative light.

Right, the old "Tyrion and Sansa only had a good relationship on the show because Tyrion was sooooo whitewashed" argument. Here's the funny thing about GOT whitewashing: Sandor, another character with sexual interest in Sansa in the books, was also incredibly whitewashed in the show (didn't laugh about killing Mycah, was more affectionate towards Arya, etc. etc.). However, TV Sandor's relationship with Sansa was downplayed in the show considerably, and there was no whiff of mutual trust or respect. So Tyrion and Sansa's closer relationship in the show doesn't really have anything to do with whitewashing, does it?

On 2018-08-25 at 5:48 PM, Wouter said:

Like Eyes High, I have the other interpretation. I suspect GRRM has Tyrion thinking about Sansa without making it obvious.

Yup.

On 2018-08-25 at 7:12 PM, WindyNights said:

That would be because Shae and Jaime betrayed him while Tysha never did. More emphasis is placed on my wife because Tyrion's inner world revolves around her which is a reason why it makes no sense for it to be Sansa that he's talking about.

It makes perfect sense. GRRM knew exactly what he was doing.

Edited August 27, 2018 by Eyes High

Happy Harpy · August 26, 2018

18 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Not gonna happen, don't worry. She already has a prophecy over her head that explicitly says she's going to die.

You're certainly right, but I wish I were that optimistic :) The mention of characters people "hate", which is pretty much Cersei at this point, + "prophecies are a dangerous thing"+ Cersei and Jon filming in KL...and I can't help getting wary. This off-season is hell, sigh.

15 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

As someone observed on /Freefolk, "brave" sure sounds a lot like code for "a lot of people are going to hate the ending."

Devil's advocate, it depends on what they think they know about the audience, for example, what side of the internet they think represents the general consensus. "An ending a lot of people are going to hate" means a very different thing at westeros.org, at freefolk, or at tumblr/AO3.

GrailKing · August 26, 2018

On 8/23/2018 at 4:36 PM, arty said:

I think she's the most vulnerable of the remaining Starks, and if another Stark must die before the series ends, it's got to be her. But, for some time now I've thought that Sansa would survive because there are so many elements of life, rebirth and Spring in her narrative -- flowers, fertility, literally rebuilding Winterfell from the snow. Her favorite story is of Florian and Jonquil, two characters named after flowers, one of whom is named after the flower that marks the arrival of Spring. Maybe I'm grasping at weeds (ha!), but I just don't see the story telling us that Sansa is meant to die in the Winter.

Actually, I consider Bran the more vulnerable Stark, he can't physically fight ( Sansa has no experience with weapons, she can still wield a knife (Maybe not well LOL ) Bran also can't walk, or run without human intervention, his weapon is his mind.

I saw that same GA video and responded under a different name from here: Sansa's symbolism with Dragonfly, Butterfly ( change, metamorphosis , end of illusions , in China it can symbolize immortality, the Irish; fire and light).

Fruit, there are two: Pomegranate ( so is Jon ) Fertility and Marriage, Sansa refused the Pomegranate, instead chose the Pear: longevity, justice,strength, fruitfulness, and salvation.

Birds:General meanings : Freedom and independence, Liberation, Messenger of the gods, love, self survival, adaptation.

Specific meanings : Dove, Peace, Innocence; Crows / Raven and Mockingbird: Intelligent, manipulative, protective , Crows and Ravens are messengers of the gods, good or ill they can also speak and if you antagonize them they can be vindictive. (Peregrine in book ) Falcons: A traveler, analytical and strategic, observes it's prey and considers best way to obtain it's goal. Foresight, ambition etc.

Fish : Fertility, birth and rebirth, fiercely independent, adapts to varying circumstances.

Wolf: sixth sense, social animal, protective, wolves try to avoid fights, but they will stand their ground and fight to the death.

Sansa the name : invocation, high praise, saint, goddess, princess, to charm, chance , justice, and (so apropos in early Sansa )a small musical instrument to be played.

Sansa and the snow castle and a giant ( Titan head ) on it's walls.

She has no corner on the symbolism's shown, but of all the characters she is the most wrapped in them.

WRG to Michele Clapton, not only are her wardrobe homage to both parent's houses, they are 50% of her story, we can read so much in Sansa's Flayed Man / fish dress, I saw the Flayed man banner hence Sansa victory over house Bolton, Ms. Clapton said it was supposed to be Tully Fish, turns out we can see both . Talk about serendipitous results LOL.

Sansa's Dark Sansa outfit: brings ( at least to me ) homage to the GOHH in a visual form, Sansa in a sexy dress all in black with all the symbolism of the birds and the color black, and her necklace in the shape of Theta ( death ) walking down and smiling at LF.

So to me I always stated I give 50 /50 odds on each Stark living or dying, but I think Sansa survives, I think she can be a Lady of any house though my odds are Winterfell.

GrailKing · August 26, 2018

Personally, I hope Tywin's line dies and ends his chance for a legacy.

bubble sparkly · August 26, 2018

5 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

Devil's advocate, it depends on what they think they know about the audience, for example, what side of the internet they think represents the general consensus. "An ending a lot of people are going to hate" means a very different thing at westeros.org, at freefolk, or at tumblr/AO3.

I agree, there are so many different “groups” out there that inevitably there will be heaps of people who hate it no matter what.

There are the DJ shippers who want them to end up ruling together with their kid, the “anti-Disney” brigade who want one or both of DJ to die so the ending isn’t too happy, the Jon fanboys who just want him alive and in charge (and don’t care if Dany lives or dies as long as she is subservient to him), the Stark fans who want the Starks to triumph over everyone and rule an independent North etc.

The brave quote could also be referencing Jaime’s death or the destruction of the iron throne.

Eyes High · August 27, 2018

New S8 footage!!!...Well, three seconds’ worth in an HBO promo. (Link is at /Freefolk, but the promo is on the GameofThrones Twitter account.) Jon and Sansa embrace in the Winterfell courtyard (I’m guessing in 8x01...?). Close up of Sansa looking over Jon’s shoulder, pissed.

Edited August 27, 2018 by Eyes High

Chiny11 · August 27, 2018

See screenshots of the new season 8 footage here: https://winteriscoming.net/2018/08/26/see-first-footage-game-thrones-season-8/

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