Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[GraceK]

17 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

Hodor and Viserion say hi ;) (Not main characters, but few didn't ugly cry and one of those deaths had huge consequences)

I think it's way too early to deduce that Jon, Dany, or Jon/Dany die. Seriously.

I notice that the first words that came to Isaac about the end were "some people will complain it's too happy", before "too sad". On the other hand the "Lannisters", Peter and Nikolaj, are those who used the word "heartbreaking". My money would be on Jaime killing Cersei and dying, for the heartbreaking part. Cersei's is Jaime's other half and no matter how he despises her now, killing her would be killing part of him (I just hope that he won't kill Cersei because she has Brienne killed. Argh). And Tyrion would lose the only person who loved him from the start.

There could be other explanations for the actors being there or not. It could be that Dany is giving birth during those particular scenes (which explains the Gilly/Missandei absence, they'd be midwifing). It could also be that everyone found refuge in KL, because the AoTD made a mega scourging of all Westeros, and is waiting for the last assault; the Targs will arrive on their dragons. It could be yet another reason or timeline that no one thought about because we don't have the plot outlines or even elements of it beyond "battles".

I do think it's possible that the Targs don't rule, which could be coherent with Joe Dempsie's "like upon reflection" words. Yet, I doubt very much he'd think people will like the heroes dying or anything nihilistic. "Accept," "be OK with", "find coherent" etc. But "like"? It seems pretty unlikely a word to me.

Several different scenes were filmed in Seville. Last season, they used the same location for Highgarden and Casterly Rock IIRC. Short of actual pictures of what was filmed, exactly, or costumes, there's no way of knowing what exactly took place.

I'm not sure that D&D will actually film different endings, but I wouldn't put it past them to have used the Solo promotion window to film the particular scenes where Dany (and Jon) weren't needed in order to muddle things up. The actors didn't hide at all, contrasting with the general secrecy surrounding the season.

 

This lines up pretty much with what I was thinking. Also I LOVE this whole post for obvious reasons.

Edited May 18, 2018 by GraceK

[Eyes High]

42 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

You think they may conspire against the others?

Or they are the end game couple.

I get shippy vibes from how they've been written in the show, at least for seasons 2 through 4. Mileage clearly varies on this.

As much fun as Tyrion and Sansa randomly conspiring to fuck over everyone else would be, I don't think there's any time left for that.

25 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

I think it's way too early to deduce that Jon, Dany, or Jon/Dany die. Seriously.I notice that the first words that came to Isaac about the end were "some people will complain it's too happy", before "too sad". On the other hand the "Lannisters", Peter and Nikolaj, are those who used the word "heartbreaking".

=

To be fair, I think Maisie used the word "heartbreaking" as well.

Quote

There could be other explanations for the actors being there or not. 

If it's not a postwar scene or series of scenes, then sure. But if it's a big postwar gathering (which day shoots in Seville in May would suggest due to the safety issues of putting everyone in warm winter clothes in Seville weather) with everyone, including Jon and Dany's nearest and dearest, except Jon and Dany? There aren't many good explanations as to why Jon and Dany aren't there as well. One way or another, they would be out of the picture.

Quote

I do think it's possible that the Targs don't rule, which could be coherent with Joe Dempsie's "like upon reflection" words.

I wonder if Joe Dempsie unintentionally spoiled something when he said that Gendry "goes on the biggest journey of all." Really? Bigger than Jon Snow's? Bigger than Dany's?

Quote

I'm not sure that D&D will actually film different endings, but I wouldn't put it past them to have used the Solo promotion window to film the particular scenes where Dany (and Jon) weren't needed in order to muddle things up. The actors didn't hide at all, contrasting with the general secrecy surrounding the season.

Someone was hiding: Iain, Gemma and Tobias weren't at the Hotel XIII along with the main cast. 

Edited May 18, 2018 by Eyes High

[GrailKing]

3 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I get shippy vibes from how they've been written in the show, at least for seasons 2 through 4. Mileage clearly varies on this.

As much fun as Tyrion and Sansa randomly conspiring to fuck over everyone else would be, I don't think there's any time left for that.

So GRRM gets the girl.

LOL, possible, I personally wouldn't love that, or care for it, but as long as the Starks survive.

I rather she be in WF, or the Eyrie, anywhere but with the house that destroyed hers.

[whateverdgaf]

33 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

 

I notice that the first words that came to Isaac about the end were "some people will complain it's too happy", before "too sad". On the other hand the "Lannisters", Peter and Nikolaj, are those who used the word "heartbreaking". My money would be on Jaime killing Cersei and dying, for the heartbreaking part. Cersei's is Jaime's other half and no matter how he despises her now, killing her would be killing part of him (I just hope that he won't kill Cersei because she has Brienne killed. Argh). And Tyrion would lose the only person who loved him from the start. 

Nik also said satisfying. Considering how Nik has been longing for Jaime to break away from Cersei, and hasn't been shy about hiding his annoyance with Jaime being stuck with her (compared to how enthusiastic he was in this interview) whatever happens I think we are garunteed to see Jaime finally becoming his own many and no longer being defined by his relationship with Cersei. That Nik ships Jaime/Brienne so much is also promising, thinking about how much he ships them. He will need a fuulfilling ending for those two to be satisfied.

[Happy Harpy]

14 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I get shippy vibes from how they've been written in the show, at least for seasons 2 through 4. Mileage clearly varies on this.

As much fun as Tyrion and Sansa randomly conspiring to fuck over everyone else would be, I don't think there's any time left for that.

To be fair, I think Maisie used the word "heartbreaking" as well.

If it's not a postwar scene or series of scenes, then sure. But if it's a big postwar gathering (which day shoots in Seville in May would suggest due to the safety issues of putting everyone in warm winter clothes in Seville weather) with everyone, including Jon and Dany's nearest and dearest, except Jon and Dany? There aren't many good explanations as to why Jon and Dany aren't there as well. One way or another, they would be out of the picture.

I wonder if Joe Dempsie unintentionally spoiled something when he said that Gendry "goes on the biggest journey of all." Really? Bigger than Jon Snow's? Bigger than Dany's?

Someone was hiding: Iain, Gemma and Tobias weren't at the Hotel XIII along with the main cast. 

I agree about Tyrion/Sansa. My ship-dar is usually pretty accurate and they pinged, LOL. I wonder if it's a coincidence that Sansa and Tyrion were in each other's orbit for about the same period as Arya and Gendry were. Parallels!

Indeed, we don't know if it's postwar or not, Missandei is arguably Dany's nearest and she isn't there either. And being out of the picture doesn't mean "dead", other explanations were given above. That's why it's too early to conclude anything yet.

True, some cast members did hide, more or less (I'd bet actors are ordered to not post anything on social media  and Gemma did post on IG, didn't she?). The big WTF ones like Jaqen or the Waif didn't, though, and the main cast "showing off" only stressed Kit and Emilia's absence.

If his journey is bigger than Jon and Dany's, then King Gendry FTW. The King of the Forges, long may he reign! It actually would explain "like upon reflection". It isn't Jon and Dany, but a "good guy" and -if I believe many reactions to his return- a rather appreciated character. So it's a possibility that I wouldn't discard but like I said, I'm wary of scenarios that I'd like too much. It could be something completely different since we have no sound basis or solid/specific clues to speculate.

[Sunshinegal]

37 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Honestly, I thought S7 was pointing pretty strongly towards Jon and Dany having a kid and ruling together, but the Seville news--if it means what I think it means--has called that into question.

Thanks to watching a lot of TV, I have a decent track record when it comes to predicting endgame ships on shows***--I had a nagging feeling that Barney and Robin were doomed, and I knew that Stan and Peggy were going to end up together even though the actors involved swore up and down it was strictly platonic (lies!)--but predicting endgame plot twists is not my strong suit.

With that said, I got a vibe from the whole Dany burning the Tarlys thing, just in the way that D&D spoke about it, that we're not supposed to be terribly invested in Dany as the endgame queen. Doesn't mean that she'll die, but I don't get the feeling that she's being set up as the final ruler. My track record on such things is lousy, though, so grain of salt.

***which is why all the Tyrion/Sansa show-only stuff set off alarm bells for me.

Thinking about it the baby anvils that were dropped heavily in season 7 might have came too soon.  I think most people would think that after watching the season 7 finale that baby Targ will rule Westeros.  But for people who don't look for spoilers or leaks or read message boards, baby Targ not surviving will be a huge twist. 

And if Jon and Dany die, than I want them to die as selfless heroes.  Any other way feels cheap.

I do think that Sansa and Sandor will have some sort of resolution considering how book Sansa was into him.  What that resolution might be I don't know.  And I also think some sort of resolution will happen between Tyrion and Sansa but I don't know what that is either. 

If Gilly and Missandei are dead too, than are there going to be any happy couples in Westeros.  It seems that Jon and Dany might be dead.  If Gilly and Missandei are dead (I hope not but it is not looking good for both of them) that means that Sam and Grey Worm are without their partners.  If Jaime dies that means that Brienne is without her partner (I hope not since I like them together).  I don't think that a Tyrion/Sansa relationship is universally popular.  Sansan seems to be out.  I don't think that Bran will be with Meera (especially since she hasn't been filming)  Arya and Gendry might be an endgame couple but they haven't even seen each other since season 3.  The situation seems dire for any romantic couples.

[GrailKing]

If! this is a death scene I hope Sansa,Arya and Bran brings Jon's bones to Winterfell to lay between Ned and Lyanna.

I'll tear jerk that for ever.

[Sunshinegal]

8 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

I agree about Tyrion/Sansa. My ship-dar is usually pretty accurate and they pinged, LOL. I wonder if it's a coincidence that Sansa and Tyrion were in each other's orbit for about the same period as Arya and Gendry were. Parallels!

Indeed, we don't know if it's postwar or not, Missandei is arguably Dany's nearest and she isn't there either. And being out of the picture doesn't mean "dead", other explanations were given above. That's why it's too early to conclude anything yet.

True, some cast members did hide, more or less (I'd bet actors are ordered to not post anything on social media  and Gemma did post on IG, didn't she?). The big WTF ones like Jaqen or the Waif didn't, though, and the main cast "showing off" only stressed Kit and Emilia's absence.

If his journey is bigger than Jon and Dany's, then King Gendry FTW. The King of the Forges, long may he reign! It actually would explain "like upon reflection". It isn't Jon and Dany, but a "good guy" and -if I believe many reactions to his return- a rather appreciated character. So it's a possibility that I wouldn't discard but like I said, I'm wary of scenarios that I'd like too much. It could be something completely different since we have no sound basis or solid/specific clues to speculate.

My shipdar went off with Tyrion/Sansa too.  But I have no clue what will happen. 

I don't think its definitive that Jon and Dany are dead.  But it doesn't look any good considering that many of the cast were in Seville and it doesn't seem to be a big battle scene (which might indicate them being on dragons fighting from above).  It seemed to me like it was a funeral for Jon. 

I don't think we will see a King Gendry because I don't think that there will be a ruler of Westeros in the end (even though it is fun to speculate a King Gendry and a Queen Arya).  And learning to rule or ruling isn't part of his arc.  What seems to me to be part of his arc is family.  And many if not most of his interactions are with Arya.  So I think that his big journey is starting a family with Arya.  Which will be the happiest outcome for both Gendry and Arya.  But considering what the situation seems to be with Jon and Dany, I don't want to get my hopes up.

 

6 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

If! this is a death scene I hope Sansa,Arya and Bran brings Jon's bones to Winterfell to lay between Ned and Lyanna.

I'll tear jerk that for ever.

I agree.  I would cry my eyes out.  That scene will be moving.

[WindyNights]

12 hours ago, nikma said:

Again, there is no way that D&D changed their plans about something that big that late, when they arleady hired extras. This is too big for that type of improvisation from the production.

Dorne.

[nikma]

2 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

Dorne.

What about Dorne? Is there any evidence that the've changed their plans about Dorne when they were filming S5 and that in the original scripts for that  season scenes from that storyline were different from what we got at the end?

[Happy Harpy]

16 minutes ago, Sunshinegal said:

My shipdar went off with Tyrion/Sansa too.  But I have no clue what will happen. 

I don't think its definitive that Jon and Dany are dead.  But it doesn't look any good considering that many of the cast were in Seville and it doesn't seem to be a big battle scene (which might indicate them being on dragons fighting from above).  It seemed to me like it was a funeral for Jon.

Why a funeral? Are there pictures of the cast dressed in black? And why would Cersei be there? Or the Waif and Jaqen, for that matter?

The part with the dragons in the sky can be filmed elsewhere. IIRC, it happened before with Dany's speech to the Dothraki in 6x06. I don't think that Gilly, Missandei, Jon and Dany are dead just because they missed a few days of filming something we have no clue about, and that actually could have been several different somethings.

There's always a possibility that any character dies. But I won't jump the gun about any of the OG five croaking without a serious and solid basis.

7 minutes ago, nikma said:

What about Dorne? Is there any evidence that the've changed their plans about Dorne when they were filming S5 and that in the original scripts for that  season scenes from that storyline were different from what we got at the end?

Alexander Siddig said the plan was different for Dorne, initially, and much bigger. But IIRC, D&D changed plans between seasons, while they were prepping for S6, not during filming.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Happy Harpy

[WindyNights]

5 hours ago, domina89 said:

Maybe Jon and Dany don't die, but take their kid and just peace out and leave the ruling of Westeros to a Great Counsel.  I could see that being very appealing to Jon and maybe even to Dany after all the pain and destruction that is sure to come.  She has always wanted her house with the red door so maybe she has some realization that what she really wants is not to be a conqueror.  I, personally, wouldn't mind an ending like that for them- although it would mystify me as to why their story arcs up to now have been about learning how to lead and rule if they won't be leading or ruling.  

Their arcs haven't been about learning how to rule. GRRM confirmed that through Feldman. GRRM was exploring the tough decisions that is involved in governing just like he did with Cersei.

 

It wasn't about leveling up.

 

Feldman: 

So, what was the point of Dany’s sojourn in Meereen? Many just dismiss it as wholly filler, without any real purpose at all except to pad out the books. Others think that Dany as a character “regressed,” returning to a state of incompetence, naivete, and passivity. Others think the point was about giving Dany “practice” ruling, so she could make mistakes, and eventually become a better ruler when she reaches Westeros.

Here’s why all these interpretations miss the point: “The human heart in conflict with itself is the only thing worth writing about.” –George R. R. Martin

Martin has paraphrased this quote from William Faulkner time and time again in interviews, yet many readers haven’t fully internalized it. It means Martin is not interested in merely showing characters “leveling up,” like a video game, progressing from incompetent naif to awesome badass. His main interest is in exploring his characters’ values. And throughout the series, he creates drama by forcing characters to choose between their core values — love vs. duty, honor vs. pragmatism, vows vs. innocent life.

With that in mind, a closer look reveals that Dany’s plotline in Meereen has been very cleverly designed as a series of tests of her values, and one value in particular. Each test is designed to ask — how far will Dany go to make peace and protect innocent life? With nearly every new chapter, Dany is asked to give up something else she wants or desires, for the good of the Meereenese people. The use of her dragons. A share of power in Meereen. Some of her anti-slavery reforms. Her desire for vengeance. Her desire to right every wrong she sees. Her distaste for cultural practices she finds abhorrent. Her sexual autonomy. Her happiness. Her pride. Her chance at Westeros.

Dany’s arc is revealed in how she responds to these tests, and how she tries to balance her moral ideals against her own darker impulses and desires. Part of Dany genuinely does want peace, and wants to sacrifice a great deal to protect innocent life. But another part of her would rather she take what she wants, through fire and blood.

The main drama of the Meereen plotline lies in Dany’s mind and in her choices. On the surface she is struggling with the Meereenese — but her most crucial struggle is with herself. And the outcome of this struggle will have momentous consequences for Westeros.

 

Elio on what GRRM thought about Feldman: "No, but he referred very specifically to the Meereenese Blot website and the knot essays. He said he was told about them, read them, and was very pleased that someone was able to get his difficulties and his intentions perfectly."

[nikma]

2 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

 

Alexander Siddig said the plan was different for Dorne, initially, and much bigger. But IIRC, D&D changed plans between seasons, while they were prepping for S6, not during filming

I know that, but that is completely different. That person on FF said that he was hired as an extra for Riverrun battle and that D&D then decided to merge that battle with WF's. That's completely impossible. Even if D&D made that creative decision, they would have made it very very early, not when they already hired extras.

[WindyNights]

2 hours ago, nikma said:

I think the last big tragic moment happened in S5, when Jon died. But he then came back in S6. 

S7 didn't feel at all like Empire strikes back, Deathly Hallows - Part One, Infinity War,... You know that "darkest before the dawn" feeling that those penultimate instalments had. Quite the opposite, I had a feeling that things were overall getting better and better for protagonists in S6 and S7. Jon and Dany surviving and ruling would be a logical  culimantion of that trajectory, not true subversive ending IMO. 

Ned's death and RW are in the distant past now and the story feels far more conventional.

Which is interesting since GRRM says that TWOW is his darkest book yet. It's going to be even bleaker than AFFC and ADWD. 

[screamin]

4 hours ago, SeanC said:

The house with the red door, and the occasional pangs Dany has for a simple life, have never been mentioned in the show.  It would be quite out-of-nowhere to bring that up at the very end.

If she has the baby but loses all her dragons and Jon in the last battle, I don't think it matters very much that we haven't seen her muse out loud on the show about her yearning for a quiet, unimportant life in a humble little home somewhere.

When I imagine her cuddling her baby and mourning Jon in the blood-soaked aftermath of her victory over the Night King, and Tyrion comes bustling up to her with the news that most of the Seven Kingdoms have seceded but she still has the biggest army left so he can guarantee she can eventually take them all back again with just a few more years of bloodshed, I think it would be completely plausible for her to answer, "You know what? I've done all the good I can do here, and killing more smallfolk for power will just spoil the good I have done and leave my baby with the most dangerous, insecure and nightmarish job imaginable for the rest of their life. Fuck this shit," and leave. 

Except, you know, she'll say it more poetic-like.

Edited May 18, 2018 by screamin

[nikma]

2 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

Which is interesting since GRRM says that TWOW is his darkest book yet. It's going to be even bleaker than AFFC and ADWD. 

I think that's because GRRM still has a lot of minor characters and he can still write shocking deaths of POV characters, while keeping his real heroes safe. He has Selmy, Arianne, Aeron, Victarion, Connington, Areo Hotah,... They could all die in very dark and powerful way.

[Happy Harpy]

8 minutes ago, nikma said:

I know that, but that is completely different. That person on FF said that he was hired as an extra for Riverrun battle and that D&D then decided to merge that battle with WF's. That's completely impossible. Even if D&D made that creative decision, they would have made it very very early, not when they already hired extras.

Exact, that's why I stressed they made the changes between seasons and not during filming. That's just all that Dorne evoked to me as far as changing plans go.

[WindyNights]

2 minutes ago, nikma said:

I think that's because GRRM still has a lot of minor characters and he can still write shocking deaths of POV characters, while keeping his real heroes safe. He has Selmy, Arianne, Aeron, Victarion, Connington, Areo Hotah,... They could all die in very dark and powerful way.

While that's true, I'm thinking more about atmosphere rather than individual characters.

Although, I still think Theon's being executed by Stannis early on in TWOW hence why Show Theon doesn't really do anything important and is all over the map (since they killed Stannis too early for him to execute Theon).

My suspicion is that Theon's recovery and execution was meant to happen at the end of ADWD with the conclusion of the Battle of Ice. The show will still kill Theon off just in a different way.

[Eyes High]

2 hours ago, GrailKing said:

So GRRM gets the girl.

Heh. If you want to get really weird, in GRRM’s story A Song for Lya, the first-person POV protagonist Robb loses his short, waiflike , short-haired brunette girlfriend Lyanna (Lya) and eventually gets together with Laurie, described as an “auburn-haired vision.” 

Book Tyrion always seemed doomed to be yet another of GRRM’s lovelorn male protagonists, and Sansa has no reason to marry or remain married to Tyrion unless she wishes to do so. I’d be surprised if Tyrion and Sansa wound up together. However, I can’t say I’d be shocked. 

GRRM’s original outline actually established a parallel between Tyrion and Sansa, as the respective “disloyal” members of their houses. I thought the outline implied that Sansa died, but the outline also says that Tyrion befriends Sansa along with Arya (whom he later falls in love with), so who knows?

1 hour ago, Happy Harpy said:

I agree about Tyrion/Sansa. My ship-dar is usually pretty accurate and they pinged, LOL. 

Same. I have to laugh when people swoon at Jaime grabbing Brienne’s hand at their dinner with Roose Bolton to calm her down but don’t even notice when Tyrion takes Sansa’s hand at the Purple Wedding to stop her from freaking out. Ping ping ping!

1 hour ago, Sunshinegal said:

My shipdar went off with Tyrion/Sansa too. 

I know, right? 

1 hour ago, GrailKing said:

If! this is a death scene I hope Sansa,Arya and Bran brings Jon's bones to Winterfell to lay between Ned and Lyanna.

I'll tear jerk that for ever.

Oh my God, I would cry forever.

Edited May 18, 2018 by Eyes High

[SimoneS]

3 hours ago, Sunshinegal said:

It seemed to me like it was a funeral for Jon. 

If Jon dies, it will be in the winter fighting the NK. It seems unlikely that they would wait months to bury him and do so at Dragonpit.

[Eyes High]

38 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

If Jon dies, it will be in the winter fighting the NK. It seems unlikely that they would wait months to bury him and do so at Dragonpit.

Yeah, that would be one putrescent corpse. Ditto for Dany.

 

4 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Which is interesting since GRRM says that TWOW is his darkest book yet. It's going to be even bleaker than AFFC and ADWD. 

GRRM usually farms out the dark shit to minor characters, though: Sansa’s forced marriage versus Jeyne Poole’s, Jaime losing a hand versus Vargo Hoat is slowly eaten alive, Sansa’s narrow escape during the riot versus Lollys getting gang raped, Brienne versus Pretty Meris, Arya making it through the Harrenhal house of horrors mostly unscathed, etc. I expect that to continue.

Edited May 19, 2018 by Eyes High

[SimoneS]

5 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Yeah, that would be one putrescent corpse. Ditto for Dany.

How about this scenario instead; Jon dies fighting the NK (although I don't understand why one of the Red Priestesses couldn't just bring him back to life) and Daenerys gives birth several months later. The gathering at Dragonpit would then make sense as it would be to celebrate the birth and/or bury Dany who dies in childbirth. Whichever occurs, it would result in restoration of the Targaryens to the Iron Throne.

Edited May 19, 2018 by SimoneS

[bubble sparkly]

I say the dragon pit meeting is a gathering to meet the new baby Targ.  However, Jon and Dany are not just going to wheel the miracle baby out in a ye old Westerosi stroller, they are going to present the kid Lion King style while they ride on dragonback overhead.  That's my story and I'm sticking to it lol.

[SimoneS]

32 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said:

I say the dragon pit meeting is a gathering to meet the new baby Targ.  However, Jon and Dany are not just going to wheel the miracle baby out in a ye old Westerosi stroller, they are going to present the kid Lion King style while they ride on dragonback overhead.  That's my story and I'm sticking to it lol.

Bwah! I can just see Jon and Dany on their dragons lifting up the baby to the Circle of Life from the Lion King.

[WindyNights]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Yeah, that would be one putrescent corpse. Ditto for Dany.

 

GRRM usually farms out the dark shit to minor characters, though: Sansa’s forced marriage versus Jeyne Poole’s, Jaime losing a hand versus Vargo Hoat is slowly eaten alive, Sansa’s narrow escape during the riot versus Lollys getting gang raped, Brienne versus Pretty Meris, Arya making it through the Harrenhal house of horrors mostly unscathed, etc. I expect that to continue.

Theon Greyjoy?

And Brienne still got a quarter of her face bitten off and Tyrion still lost a nose.

[John Potts]

23 hours ago, nikma said:

since there is not enough time for her to give birth and then die.

In the Medieval period, women frequently died in childbirth, even Queens (Jane Seymour, Henry VIII's third wife, springs to mind - or Danny's mother). I can't see Jon (or Danny, for that matter) being all "Laters!" once the White Walkers are defeated and leaving a political vacuum in Westeros. I can see Jon or Danny relinquishing the throne to their kid once the Kigdoms have recovered, or at least, are recovering. But if it's a Bittersweet ending, one of them is dying before the end and I doubt it will be the one who has already come back from the dead.

[screamin]

15 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Yeah, that would be one putrescent corpse. Ditto for Dany.

 

If he's generally accepted as a dragon, he'd be burned on a pyre and they can bring his ashes home.

[Wouter]

GRRM has his "bittersweet" ending compared with LOTR. The sweet part of the LOTR ending is that Sauron is defeated, Arwen and Aragorn marry and live and rule happily/wisely and the Shire is getting rebuild. The Hobbits also all survive, while Gollum gets a poetic ending. The bitter part is that Frodo, along with Aragorn one of the main heroes, doesn't really get to enjoy any of it as he has to leave with the Elves (which seems to be, up to a point, a metaphoric way of dying), the Shire has been ravaged while he was away and magic in general seems to be leaving the land.

So, Aragorn got a very positive ending, and while Frodo technically survived he must have ended with a very bitter taste for all his heroic troubles.

How this would be translated to ASOIAF remains in doubt. Who will be more like Aragorn and who will get the Frodo ending? And what form would it take?

From other things that have been indicated (Jojen and/or a Child of the Forest said a few things in the books, IIRC), I did get the impression that (actual) dragons may not have a very long time left. The more magical creatures seem to be going the same way as in LOTR, with the Direwolves predicted to be the last of them.

[Sunshinegal]

Just now, Wouter said:

GRRM has his "bittersweet" ending compared with LOTR. The sweet part of the LOTR ending is that Sauron is defeated, Arwen and Aragorn marry and live and rule happily/wisely and the Shire is getting rebuild. The Hobbits also all survive, while Gollum gets a poetic ending. The bitter part is that Frodo, along with Aragorn one of the main heroes, doesn't really get to enjoy any of it as he has to leave with the Elves (which seems to be, up to a point, a metaphoric way of dying), the Shire has been ravaged while he was away and magic in general seems to be leaving the land.

So, Aragorn got a very positive ending, and while Frodo technically survived he must have ended with a very bitter taste for all his heroic troubles.

How this would be translated to ASOIAF remains in doubt. Who will be more like Aragorn and who will get the Frodo ending? And what form would it take?

From other things that have been indicated (Jojen and/or a Child of the Forest said a few things in the books, IIRC), I did get the impression that (actual) dragons may not have a very long time left. The more magical creatures seem to be going the same way as in LOTR, with the Direwolves predicted to be the last of them.

I think that we should also be aware of that even though GRMM is influenced by LOTR doesn't mean that the ending will be like LOTR.  Some people are predicting that Bran will get the Frodo ending and that Jon will get the Aragorn ending and that might not be the case.  It could still happen but it might not happen.  Even though I think that GRMM's reputation as a trope breaker might be a little overrated doesn't mean that he will have a predictable ending or have his ending follow LOTR exactly. 

Personally I will be pleasantly surprised if Bran DOES NOT get the Frodo ending.  I would find that ending unpredictable.  That doesn't mean that I think that he will magically get the use of his legs or have children or have a relationship with Meera. 

It's been a while since I read LOTR but didn't the secondary characters get happy endings. 

[Wouter]

56 minutes ago, Sunshinegal said:

It's been a while since I read LOTR but didn't the secondary characters get happy endings. 

Those who survived, did (Boromir was long dead of course, GOT has this part covered though!).

Jon's resurrection may bring him closer to the Frodo side, even though his arc in the series is much, much closer to Aragorn. The show hasn't really touched on the after effects of his resurrection, but I imagine that GRRM would, should he ever finish even merely The Winds Of Winter. With close to Frodo I mean that he would be a magically living creature in a realm where magical creatures seem destined to die out in the more or less near future.

Edited May 19, 2018 by Wouter

[WindyNights]

6 hours ago, Wouter said:

GRRM has his "bittersweet" ending compared with LOTR. The sweet part of the LOTR ending is that Sauron is defeated, Arwen and Aragorn marry and live and rule happily/wisely and the Shire is getting rebuild. The Hobbits also all survive, while Gollum gets a poetic ending. The bitter part is that Frodo, along with Aragorn one of the main heroes, doesn't really get to enjoy any of it as he has to leave with the Elves (which seems to be, up to a point, a metaphoric way of dying), the Shire has been ravaged while he was away and magic in general seems to be leaving the land.

So, Aragorn got a very positive ending, and while Frodo technically survived he must have ended with a very bitter taste for all his heroic troubles.

How this would be translated to ASOIAF remains in doubt. Who will be more like Aragorn and who will get the Frodo ending? And what form would it take?

From other things that have been indicated (Jojen and/or a Child of the Forest said a few things in the books, IIRC), I did get the impression that (actual) dragons may not have a very long time left. The more magical creatures seem to be going the same way as in LOTR, with the Direwolves predicted to be the last of them.

One other thing is that Sam realizes that no one really cares about Frodo in the Shire. He's ignored in favor of Pippin, Merry and Sam. They don't want to hear Frodo's tales.

My personal opinion is that most of the POVs are GRRM's Frodo and getting a similarly bittersweet ending.

I mean look at someone like Brienne who is going to lose someone else that she loves (Jaime) or Bran whose personality died or Cersei or Jaime (both are going to lose all their children and die) or Ned or Catelyn  etc.

Has there been a POV that GRRM has given a sweet ending?

[WearyTraveler]

On 5/18/2018 at 8:05 PM, nikma said:

I just find it interesting that one mainstream fantasy story could end with the main characters dying to save the world. Harry Potter didn't do that. LOTR either. Hunger Games, MCU, the Dark Knight trilogy, Star Wars,...

It would be something different. But I still don't think that will happen. 

Lost ended with the main character dying to save the world.  It's actually a common arc in literature, which was quite popular with audiences.  But I suppose at some point said audiences just wanted some damn hope and preferred their heroes alive at the end of the tale, so...

 

15 hours ago, Wouter said:

From other things that have been indicated (Jojen and/or a Child of the Forest said a few things in the books, IIRC), I did get the impression that (actual) dragons may not have a very long time left. The more magical creatures seem to be going the same way as in LOTR, with the Direwolves predicted to be the last of them.

The magic arc is in the books is the reverse, actually.   When we start the story in AGoT, there are very few magical creatures around, particularly in Westeros.  Direwolves and dragons have not been seem for hundreds of years, which is why Jon finding the pups is such a big deal for House Stark, and the fact that there was one pup for each child is meant to make the event even more significant.

Then we have Dany "birthing" dragons and the return of the WW, who had been dormant (believed extinct) for so long, that even the Night's Watch forgot they were the real reason The Wall was built in the first place.

When Dany was in Qarth, she is told that after the birth of her dragons, all magic seems to be much more powerful, and that people can do things now that they couldn't do before.

There is heated fan debate on the subject: did magic start coming back to Planetos after the birth of the Prince that Was Promised (be said figure Jon or Dany) and is that caused the WW to rise again? or was magic already making a comeback and thus TPTWP becomes necessary?

But what is not disputed is the rebirth of magic itself in Planetos, this is a fact.  When TCOTF and other characters speak about magic, what many say is that it was actually bad that Men forgot all about it, because only magic could provide the answers to fight the WW and their army of zombies.

Edited May 20, 2018 by WearyTraveler

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, WearyTraveler said:

Lost ended with the main character dying to save the world.  It's actually a common arc in literature, which was quite popular with audiences.  But I suppose at some point said audiences just wanted some damn hope and preferred their heroes alive at the end of the tale, so...

Not in the science fantasy genre in which Martin writes. 

[Edith]

Faith of Angels not angles

Edited May 20, 2018 by Edith

[WearyTraveler]

6 hours ago, SimoneS said:

Not in the science fantasy genre in which Martin writes. 

Yes, that's why I said literature, not fantasy.  My point is that in literature, this was a common occurrence, until some writers started keeping their main characters alive, IMO because readers were probably wanting more hopeful endings.  I don't know when the Fantasy genre was officially born, but I imagine it was around the same time that writers started keeping their heroes be alive by the end of their epic tales, or sometime after.

In any case, the OP I was responding to had posted examples of known fantasy where the heroes are kept alive, suggesting this is a trope, I pointed out the opposite trope in literature, which then was subverted to create the trope of the surviving hero.

My more overarching point being that most every story structure is a trope of some kind. There have been millions and millions of books written throughout human history, anyone aiming to write something that subverts tropes is shooting him/herself in the foot.  The story and characters have to come first, if it is a good story with characters that people can identify with, readers will love it, tropes be damned.

[Edith]

Quote

Boatsexbaby

I am not sure if L7R/WoTW and I are referring to the same scene but there is a Jaime/Brienne fighting scene in KL. I know where the confusion is coming from coz they were all filmed in front of the Magheramorne green screen and then the producers saying it was for 'one episode' has only added to the mess. Magheramorne quarry was used for filming scenes from multiple episodes and for most of the scenes filmed, we would only know after post-production when they superimpose the background

Quote

Thanks! I am pretty sure Rory and Thor will both be part of the KL battle. I have only shared what I know has been filmed already.

No problem! ? I think Kit and Jacob's double were there since the beginning coz they were needed for stunt choreography. Even Jacob arrived much later than the other actors and was first spotted only on Sunday.

Unfortunately, I don't have anything confirmed about the episode numbers. I was told in the first week of April that the Spain filming would be for 5/6 and that it was a battle. I am pretty sure that was filmed in the last three weeks. I don't know if scenes from some other episode got added to the schedule, just like I didn't know about the documentary till this week.

Edited May 20, 2018 by Edith

[Happy Harpy]

So, the scenes filmed in Spain without Jon and Dany are probably for the  KL battle, and not for after the battle?  No tissues for the Targs yet, then.

Daznak's pit, dragonfire. Imagine if Tyrion, Sansa, Brienne etc. are cornered in the Dragonpit and Jon/Dany arrive to the rescue. If Jon is seen for the first time on a dragon, saving the day, that would be epic and so very satisfying.

Also, it seems they could indeed very well film different scenes for different places in the same location, and even bits and pieces of the same battle in different countries? Makes it harder to spot the survivors.

Jaime survives the Winterfell battle. Bonus time, yay!

Aya, Gendry and Davos filming together will never not be music to my ears, even if it's a "probably maybe not sure".

Edited May 20, 2018 by Happy Harpy

[Edith]

Quote

Boatsexbaby

I am not sure about the specific names who were involved in the night shoots except Kit and Jacob. There were rumors of night shoots on multiple days but nothing can be confirmed 100% thanks to everyone in Spain being outside the hotel haha.

Quote

I don't know anything about 'Jaime dying in Brienne's arms' scene. My source only told me that they filmed a fighting scene and it will be in KL. 

Quote

'Mel on a horse' scene is also supposed to be in KL. I was waiting for Carice to show up in Spain, but since she didn't, I am going to assume that scene is either not in the dragonpit and elsewhere in KL or they didn't get permission to use horses in the dragonpit and will just use the superimposed image.

Edited May 20, 2018 by Edith

[SimoneS]

After reading all this, I think I was right that they were filming battle scenes for several episodes. However, this doesn't explain why they built a stage in Dragonpit. What would all those different group of characters be doing standing out in the open in the middle of a battle? 

Edited May 20, 2018 by SimoneS

[Eyes High]

So it sounds like there are three groups of scenes from the KL battle filmed in Seville, all from 8x05 and 8x06:

1. Tyrion, Sansa, Brienne and Robin involved in an action scene (maybe cornered in the Dragonpit?).

2. Arya, Sam, Gendry, and Davos doing...something else not requiring stand-ins or doubles.

3. Jon, Grey Worm and Unsullied involved in another action scene.

/Boatsexbaby also says that Jaime and Brienne are fighting in KL.

And then we have other potential scenes filmed in Northern Ireland:

4. Jaime collapses (dies?) in Brienne's arms. (According to /WatchersOnMyBalls, this scene was filmed in Northern Ireland, but /BoatsexBaby said that there were KL battle scenes filmed with green screen.)

5. Sandor and Gregor in KL battle.

If Dany is on her dragon throughout most of this, it would explain why Emilia was MIA for Seville filming.

Is all the green screen for AOTD stuff? If it's only for backgrounds, I don't know why they'd go to the trouble of building a KL set if they're just going to green screen backgrounds and such.

ETA: /BoatsexBaby said that the KL battle involves the AOTD. Sounds like a big battle royale involving everyone alive and dead.

...which leads me to wonder, are any of the actors in Seville playing wight versions of their characters?

...and, if the Seville scenes were action scenes involving Sansa, was Sophie’s emotional tweet referencing Sansa’s death?...Because if Sansa is going to die in this big battle, killed by wights was not what I would have predicted for her. (Ditto for Tyrion.)

Edited May 20, 2018 by Eyes High

[SimoneS]

43 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

/Boatsexbaby also says that Jaime and Brienne are fighting in KL.

And then we have other potential scenes filmed in Northern Ireland:

4. Jaime collapses (dies?) in Brienne's arms. (According to /WatchersOnMyBalls, this scene was filmed in Northern Ireland, but /BoatsexBaby said that there were KL battle scenes filmed with green screen.)

It is possible that the exterior battle scenes with Brienne and Jaime were filmed in Seville and his character dies in the interior scenes filmed in Belfast.

If D&D were directing, some of the scenes in Seville had to be in the final episode which suggests the war continues until the last episode.

[Edith]

 

Quote

Boatsexbaby

Yes. Some of them were just there to film the extra features and the documentary. Among the main actors, I would say Lena and Conleth didn't film anything for S8. Even Nikolaj unless there was a night shoot and he filmed a quick scene to go with the scenes he has already filmed in Belfast.

 

AoTD will make it to KL. From the looks of things, it seems like it will be one huge finale battle involving everyone - alive and dead.

 

No idea about Waif and Jaqen. I have no clue about Tom filming either but I do admit I am slightly curious about him being in Seville way longer than I expected.

 

Nikolaj remains a small possibility for me only coz he has already shot for that battle in Belfast according to my source. So he wouldn't need to film any extensive scenes and could be done rather quickly if it's just 1-2 scenes on location. Same for Kit.

 

Edited May 21, 2018 by Edith

[Eyes High]

Sounds as if whoever claimed that Melisandre fights the NK and loses was right, but they just got the episode wrong and that confrontation happens in the climactic KL battle.

4 hours ago, SimoneS said:

It is possible that the exterior battle scenes with Brienne and Jaime were filmed in Seville and his character dies in the interior scenes filmed in Belfast.

If D&D were directing, some of the scenes in Seville had to be in the final episode which suggests the war continues until the last episode.

Yes, indeed.

If there is a scene with Jaime and Brienne fighting in KL side by side, and another scene with Brienne, Sansa and Tyrion without Jaime, it seems likely that the former occurs before the latter.

Sansa being involved in a possible action scene with Tyrion, Brienne and the AOTD, coupled with Sophie’s tweet about a beautiful, sad day on the last day of Seville filming, really doesn’t bode well for Sansa (and/or Tyrion), but I’d be really, really surprised if Brienne, Sansa and/or Tyrion’s ultimate fate was death by wight.

The prolonged Seville filming in late April/early May without any actors makes a lot more sense in light of /BoatsexBaby’s information about portions of the KL battle being filmed on green screen in Northern Ireland. They didn’t need actors because they were shooting Italica footage to green screen in for the Belfast material. It’s pretty much what they did with the wight hunt battle in S7.

[SimoneS]

It doesn't seem like the filming at Seville was the denouement any more or at least most of it was not so I am beginning to feel optimistic about Jon and Dany's fates once more. Gilly and Missandei are likely inside King's Landing and not dead or not as yet anyway.

 

36 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

The prolonged Seville filming in late April/early May without any actors makes a lot more sense in light of /BoatsexBaby’s information about portions of the KL battle being filmed on green screen in Northern Ireland. They didn’t need actors because they were shooting Italica footage to green screen in for the Belfast material. It’s pretty much what they did with the wight hunt battle in S7.

What do you think that they were filming at Dragonpit? Or why some of these characters would be there? If it was Sansa's last scene, Sophie's tweet makes sense, but still I find it difficult to believe that she dies.

Edited May 21, 2018 by SimoneS

[WindyNights]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Sounds as if whoever claimed that Melisandre fights the NK and loses was right, but they just got the episode wrong and that confrontation happens in the climactic KL battle.

Yes, indeed.

If there is a scene with Jaime and Brienne fighting in KL side by side, and another scene with Brienne, Sansa and Tyrion without Jaime, it seems likely that the former occurs before the latter.

Sansa being involved in a possible action scene with Tyrion, Brienne and the AOTD, coupled with Sophie’s tweet about a beautiful, sad day on the last day of Seville filming, really doesn’t bode well for Sansa (and/or Tyrion), but I’d be really, really surprised if Brienne, Sansa and/or Tyrion’s ultimate fate was death by wight.

The prolonged Seville filming in late April/early May without any actors makes a lot more sense in light of /BoatsexBaby’s information about portions of the KL battle being filmed on green screen in Northern Ireland. They didn’t need actors because they were shooting Italica footage to green screen in for the Belfast material. It’s pretty much what they did with the wight hunt battle in S7.

Sansa dying by wight in KL is kinda silly to think could be legitimate. How does that tie into her character arc?

It's why I had a problem with Jaime dying via wight in Winterfell. But at least that made a little more sense because it's Jaime making more of a heroic stand after a lifetime of villainy.

 

 Now we can put that to rest though and put Jaime killing Cersei back on the table.

[WindyNights]

The most interesting thing though is that the final battle is going to extend to the last episode. That means that we won't hav an episode for an epilogue and we likely won't have much of an epilogue. 

 

The final climax will be at KL.

[Happy Harpy]

Sansa is the most expendable Stark imo but if she doesn't die at WF I don't see it, tbh. I don't see Tyrion dead either, just like any of the OG5.

If 8x06 is 70 minutes long like the Winds of Winter, I do think there will be an epilogue of sorts. Even BotB or the loot train battle took about half of an episode.

[GrailKing]

5 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

Sansa is the most expendable Stark imo but if she doesn't die at WF I don't see it, tbh. I don't see Tyrion dead either, just like any of the OG5.

If 8x06 is 70 minutes long like the Winds of Winter, I do think there will be an epilogue of sorts. Even BotB or the loot train battle took about half of an episode.

I don't know; I think each Stark is equally expendable in the finale show down, and each have skills that give them armor.

If Magic dies, Bran is either a shell of himself, or worst dead, and if he does reiterate his abdication of lordship, despite his skill at ruling WF, he has no real future.

Arya's skill sets reduce her to spying or killing for hire, or protector, she has no skills in ruling or running a large holding, or she becomes a world traveler.

Sansa can't fight, which definitely puts her at a disadvantage, but she can run a large holding, knows the things that keep the small folk happy, and is the better Stark in the politics, which along with Tyrion, and Davos makes her a candidate for survival and rebuilding Westeros.

I give each Stark 50/50 odds, and if the remaining Starks survive, they become the dominate house just on blood ties alone.

They keep the North, they keep ties to RR and the Eyrie.

The last WTF moment can be a death or a surprise pact being found and agreed to.

[Happy Harpy]

2 hours ago, GrailKing said:

I don't know; I think each Stark is equally expendable in the finale show down, and each have skills that give them armor.

But only one of those who are left wasn't part of the OG5. And you only need a good stewart to run a large holding.

The function of Master of Whisperers disagrees with Arya's skills "reducing her" to anything. Good spies and people able to work efficiently for law and order are going to be precious in the chaos following the AoTD's scourging of Westeros.

Edited May 21, 2018 by Happy Harpy

[bubble sparkly]

Isn't Arya 100% safe, based on GRRM's comments about writing a sequel set a few years down the road with Arya in Bravos etc?  Anyway, I agree with those who feel there's a good chance the remaining Starks will survive the series.

In relation to Sansa's endgame, the show seems to be setting her up as Lady of Winterfell (assuming she survives).  However, I have seen a few comments that book Sansa is unlikely to end up with Winterfell based on Robb's will and her absence from Northern stories etc.  While I'm sure D&D will make some minor changes to the ending, I think the final Stark in Winterfell would remain consistent.  So with that in mind, I am seriously pondering if we will see her ending up with Tyrion or Robin and thus ending up as Lady of Casterly Rock or the Eryrie.

I would say Tyrion would have the edge based on previous shippy scenes between them, but Robin randomly showing up and the Vale already inexplicably acting deferential to Sansa does give me pause.  I could totally see D&D having now-attractive Robin show up, exchange 3 words with Sansa, then have them end up married lol.