Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[GraceK]

7 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

My position is the same: believe what's in the picture, don't believe the interpretation given until proven reliable. Especially since HBO is in full campaign to make people believe that everybody dies, heroes die, etc. I don't know why they seem to think it'll attract audiences, though.

This sums up my position perfectly :)

[Sunshinegal]

Just now, Happy Harpy said:

In my opinion, if a missing prophecy  is mentioned it will be the valonqar, because part of it appeared already. Providing that Cersei is actually killed off by one of her little brothers, it would be typical D&D to keep that part of the book knowledge and only reveal it when it becomes directly relevant for the show's plot. Now that Tyrion and Jaime are both "against" her, they have equal chances to be the valonqar and it will be fresh in the mind of casual viewers, sparing several seasons of speculation. I just thought that S8 could open like S5 did, with Maggie the Frog, reminding the viewers that Cersei wasn't supposed to have more kids, giving the valonqar part of the prophecy and then Cersei wakes-up miscarrying.

Anyway, I don't think they'll take two book prophecies out of their hats in the last season, not after they ditched Lady Stoneheart in order to keep the full impact of Jon's death.

Also, when something is foreshadowed it's in a rather direct way. Example: The rat cook story. It was told by Bran just after the Red Wedding. The Frey pies happened three seasons later, but it was explained in full letters and not alluded to in vague terms. It seems weird that something as important as the "hero" killing the "heroine" wasn't suggested earlier.

My position is the same: believe what's in the picture, don't believe the interpretation given until proven reliable. Especially since HBO is in full campaign to make people believe that everybody dies, heroes die, etc. I don't know why they seem to think it'll attract audiences, though.

I agree. Valonquar seems more probable then the Nissa Nissa prophecy.  I agree they won't include both just because they don't have time for both. 

HBO is in misinformation mode.  I heard one of the executives said that almost everybody dies.  I don't believe that.  Many people will but not almost everybody.  I would take what they say with a grain of salt.  Sure everybody will die eventually but I believe many of the characters will survive the wars. 

[WindyNights]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

Even aside from the dubious notion of using the real history to project outcomes so 1-to-1, the Tudors were a Plantagenet female-line cadet branch (doubly so, really, since they were maternal relatives of Henry VI in addition to their descent from John of Gaunt).  So in your analogy there would need to be a Targaryen-descended ruler taking the throne.

Edric Storm/Show Gendry.  House Baratheon. ; )

I've speculated that the series ends with a Baratheon and Stark as ruler of all Westeros.

 

But the closest thing to a Henry Tudor analogue is "Aegon" and I doubt he's the endgame ruler although I wouldn't be surprised if he's the last "Targaryen" to sit the throne.

[MarySNJ]

4 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Because the HBO employee who handed off this picture said that .

 

 

I call bullshit on what the alleged HBO employee claimed.  In my opinion, if the photo is from an HBO employee, he or she is trolling. Because that’s not what either show canon or book canon says about Azor Ahai reborn. 

According to Melisandre. AA shall be reborn amidst smoke and salt wielding the flaming sword, Lightbringer. In the show, there have already been at least two candidates that fit the description in this prophesy (Jon and Dany) and at least one pseudo candidate (Stannis). 

Nissa Nissa doesn’t appear in the reborn AA prophesy in the book and she hasn’t even mentioned in the show. I think that if D & D are going to add that now it would be an asspull with no emotional payoff (except to piss me off). 

Edited March 15, 2018 by MarySNJ
Added a few words

[Eyes High]

Alfie Allen's been spotted in Belfast lately.

Maisie posted about night shoots yesterday on her Instagram.

Kit wished Steph Curry a happy birthday in costume.

Conleth Hill was spotted with his hair grown back in not long ago, which given that he shaves his head for filming either means that he's taking an extended break from filming or that he's done filming altogether.

[bubble sparkly]

Thinking about the likely Targ restoration has me wondering about the Starks. What do we think the chances are that the Stark name will continue past the current lot?

Any kids Jon has will most likely have Targaryen as a last name. Bran’s capacity to father kids is unknown and he is currently a robot with limited prospects of marriage. The only hope seems to be if Arya or Sansa marry someone who is happy to take the Stark name and have Stark kids (the 4th son of a Northern lord or someone of “low” birth).

If none of Bran, Sansa or Arya has kids, and DJ has more than one kid, then I guess one of the Targ kids would inherit Winterfell. The Northern lords would have a fit at the very thought. I wonder if Arya or Sansa would feel like they had a duty to marry and reproduce to ensure there is always a Stark in Winterfell?

[Eyes High]

7 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said:

Thinking about the likely Targ restoration has me wondering about the Starks. What do we think the chances are that the Stark name will continue past the current lot?

The chances are good, I think. Worst case scenario, Jon gives one of his kids the Stark name to continue the line, like Harry Hardyng taking the Arryn name if (when?) Sweetrobin dies.

 

Quote

 

The only hope seems to be if Arya or Sansa marry someone who is happy to take the Stark name and have Stark kids (the 4th son of a Northern lord or someone of “low” birth).

 

Name-wise, all they would have to do is marry someone who's not of equal or higher rank, and given what's happened to most of the great houses, they wouldn't really have much selection in that department, anyway.

 

Quote

I wonder if Arya or Sansa would feel like they had a duty to marry and reproduce to ensure there is always a Stark in Winterfell?

I can't imagine two characters on this show less likely to marry and reproduce out of a sense of duty.

[Sunshinegal]

21 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

Edric Storm/Show Gendry.  House Baratheon. ; )

I've speculated that the series ends with a Baratheon and Stark as ruler of all Westeros.

 

But the closest thing to a Henry Tudor analogue is "Aegon" and I doubt he's the endgame ruler although I wouldn't be surprised if he's the last "Targaryen" to sit the throne.

I thought that the Henry Tudor analogue was Dany.  When Henry went to France people did know exactly who he was.  It wasn't a secret (especially since Henry's grandmother was a French princess). 

I actually thought that Gendry would rule the Stromlands ever since they adapted Edric out.  If he was of any importance than he wouldn't have been adapted out.  And Book Gendry was always more important than Edric since he was in two books and had cameos in two more.   And he was featured heavily in Arya's POV who is a very important character.  i actually think since Gendry is featured more in the books that he would rule the Stormlands over Edric.  Especially if he is with Arya.

6 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said:

Thinking about the likely Targ restoration has me wondering about the Starks. What do we think the chances are that the Stark name will continue past the current lot?

Any kids Jon has will most likely have Targaryen as a last name. Bran’s capacity to father kids is unknown and he is currently a robot with limited prospects of marriage. The only hope seems to be if Arya or Sansa marry someone who is happy to take the Stark name and have Stark kids (the 4th son of a Northern lord or someone of “low” birth).

If none of Bran, Sansa or Arya has kids, and DJ has more than one kid, then I guess one of the Targ kids would inherit Winterfell. The Northern lords would have a fit at the very thought. I wonder if Arya or Sansa would feel like they had a duty to marry and reproduce to ensure there is always a Stark in Winterfell?

I actually have a feeling that whoever rules the North will take the Stark name.  Every Stark child is proud of being a Stark.  Being a Stark is what made Arya not become a faceless man.  Sansa lost her Stark name when she married Tyrion and Ramsey.  If she ever marries again I have a feeling that she would keep that name.  Bran is already a Stark and would keep that name.  The Stark name is a very old and honorable name.  There have been cases where the man has taken his wife's name (like the Lannisters and the Bael the Bard story).   If Bran can have kids, he is giving that name to his kids.  If Bran can't have kids, I can see whoever wants to marry either Sansa or Arya would need to take the name since they are the most powerful family in the North and related to the heir to the Iron Throne.  My guess is that Sansa will rule the North and keep her Stark name. 

I think people forget that both Arya and Sansa are half Tully through Catelyn.  Their family motto is Family, Duty, Honor.  I know that it seems that they won't, but if they have a good reason to they might.  I'm not going to say never.  Arya and Sansa might do their duty and marry if it helps their family in some way.  Personally, I doubt that either Arya or Sansa will marry out of a sense of duty, but I can't 100% rule it out. 

[GrailKing]

23 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I can't imagine two characters on this show less likely to marry and reproduce out of a sense of duty.

I can see Sansa doing this, even a little Arya, Sansa is all Stark inside, with a Tully skin; Arya is a Tully inside with a Stark skin and both have shown both sides of their bloodline, both have shown F,D,H, etc. 

[Sunshinegal]

Just now, GrailKing said:

I can see Sansa doing this, even a little Arya, Sansa is all Stark inside, with a Tully skin; Arya is a Tully inside with a Stark skin and both have shown both sides of their bloodline, both have shown F,D,H, etc. 

Totally agree.  I know I won't get this on the show but I hope that someone would point this out.  That Arya and Sansa are both Stark and Tully.  I have a feeling that it could be important to their endgame in some way. 

[WindyNights]

21 minutes ago, Sunshinegal said:

Totally agree.  I know I won't get this on the show but I hope that someone would point this out.  That Arya and Sansa are both Stark and Tully.  I have a feeling that it could be important to their endgame in some way. 

I'd imagine that their kids are going to rule the North and the Riverlands at the least. 

 

Edmure, his wife and child seem toast in the books although I hope they're not as I like Edmure.

[Sunshinegal]

Just now, WindyNights said:

I'd imagine that their kids are going to rule the North and the Riverlands at the least. 

 

Edmure, his wife and child seem toast in the books although I hope they're not as I like Edmure.

I agree with your assessment.  As much as I like Edmure, I think his family is toast too.  I think that Arya would rule the Riverlands and Sansa would rule the North.  Arya was in the Riverlands for two books and I feel that her story is not finished there.  Lady Stoneheart and Nymeria are still there and GRMM still features the story in the Riverlands.

[anamika]

6 hours ago, WindyNights said:

He has more Stark main characters than Targaryen main characters, his last book was originally titled A Time For Wolves not A Time for Dragons and he has a fascination with wolves(and even helps out a wolf sanctuary). Hell, he's even written about werewolves before too.

Never understood this argument. His last book was originally named A Time for Wolves, but he mentioned that it was not exactly perfect and he later came out and said that ' A dream of Spring' is more fitting.

There's no doubt that the wolves will play a major role in the last book. There's no doubt that Arya, Bran, Jon and their magical Direwolves are all pivotal characters who will be taking on the Others in a major way and if you recall, the last book in the original trilogy named 'A Time for Wolves' was mainly about defeating the Others. The Starks will also essentially prevail, overcome their travails and control the North once again.

But a 'Dream for Spring' is more fitting because it would encompass all the characters - because the novel has grown to encompass more characters.

Plus, if we are going by book titles, consider that the series in itself is named after the Targaryens - A Song of Ice and Fire. This is something that Rhaegar mentions. This could be either Jon or both Jon and Dany or about the goings on at the wall and in Essos. Either way it's about Jon and Dany. As GRRM reminds us:

Quote

And it is important that the individual books refer to the civil wars, but the series title reminds us constantly that the real issue lies in the North beyond the Wall. Stannis becomes one of the few characters fully to understand that, which is why in spite of everything he is a righteous man, and not just a version of Henry VII, Tiberius or Louis XI.

The story starts with the Targaryens at their lowest. They have been killed off and destroyed and only their legacy remains.  Bastard Jon with no home and nowhere to go, choosing the wall. Exiled Dany sold off like chattel to be raped. They are the underdogs in a world ruled by the Starks, Lannisters and Baratheons. And while we see all three families get slowly wiped out fighting among themselves, the Targaryens at the ends of the world slowly climb the rungs of the ladder to the top. Towards the end, Jon becomes Lord Commander and likely KITN. Dany gets 3 dragons, armies and rules as queen. If we go by the show, these two will be teaming up to take down the greater threat of the WW. And if this Nissa Nissa leak is true, then they will be instrumental in defeating the greatest apocalyptic threat that Westeros has ever faced. Making them the central characters of this plot.

Even if Jon or Dany or both die, I am pretty sure their baby will live. As much as many Stark fans want this baby and this family to die out, that's not going to happen. The Targaryens are one of the most fascinating families in Westeros and GRRM is obviously enamored with them as well considering all the back stories he writes about them. He's not going to wipe them out again at the end of the series.

And well, at the end of the day, I don't think that the story is about any particular house. As GRRM puts it, his main characters more or less start out the story as the underdogs and then try to make their way in a harsh world:

Quote

"I've always had a soft spot for the outsider, for the underdog. 'Cripples, Bastards, and Broken Things', as the title of one of the (TV series) episodes goes. The angst that they have in life makes for more conflict, makes for more drama, and there's something very attractive about that. My Game of Thrones is told by outsiders of both types. None of them fit comfortably into the society into which they've been born, and they're all struggling to find a place for themselves in which they're valued and loved and respected, despite what their society considers their deficiencies. And out of that, I think, comes good stories." – George R.R. Martin

https://www.buzzfeed.com/danieldalton/purple-socks?utm_term=.qb4Xb3MLL8#.ytzjXOKMM0

The series is not about the Starks or the Targaryens. It's about the exiled and beggared princess, the outcast bastard, the dwarf who needs his mind to to be as sharp as a weapon, the misfit girl who is not able to conform to societal ideas about women and the crippled boy who has to reinvent himself in a society that does not value cripples, bastards and broken things. GRRM is telling their story.

Edited March 15, 2018 by anamika

[WindyNights]

54 minutes ago, Sunshinegal said:

I thought that the Henry Tudor analogue was Dany.  When Henry went to France people did know exactly who he was.  It wasn't a secret (especially since Henry's grandmother was a French princess). 

I actually thought that Gendry would rule the Stromlands ever since they adapted Edric out.  If he was of any importance than he wouldn't have been adapted out.  And Book Gendry was always more important than Edric since he was in two books and had cameos in two more.   And he was featured heavily in Arya's POV who is a very important character.  i actually think since Gendry is featured more in the books that he would rule the Stormlands over Edric.  Especially if he is with Arya.

Nah. Daeneys is based off of a bunch of Stuart princesses according to GRRM. And I don't think GRRM even likes Henry Tudor. He's a hardcore Ricardian. 

"Aegon"'s not 1 for 1 with Henry but he's much closer to Henry than Daenerys.

He's descended from a disinherited but legitimized basted line for one. 

I'll just put it in a list:

Beaufort= Blackfyre 

Jasper Tudor = Jon Connington 

Wales = Dorne 

Margaret Beaufort = Varys 

Elizabeth of York = Arianne Martell 

Henry Tudor = "Aegon"

The two princes in the castles = Myrcella and Tommen 

Of course, GRRM's Aegon is really a fusion character of Perkin Warbeck and Henry Tudor. You could sum him up as Henry Tudor's been raised to think he's Richard of Shrewsbury.

-----

 

The only way that I could see Gendry ruling the Stormlands is if Stannis legitimizes Gendry on his deathbed. 

On his own merits though, nah. 

Gendry is an unlearned outlaw that worships R'hllor. If it's between him and the charming Edric, it's going to be Edric that gets it. I say this is as someone that much prefers Gendry. Edric is kinda boring and just a better version of Renly/Robert.

Anyways, character importance doesn't mean squat to political importance. And Gendry and Edric are easily mergeable. Anything you can do with Edric, you can do with Gendry albeit less convincingly.

I'd even say that Show Gendry isn't even adapatation of Book Gendry by season 7. His personality has been completely submerged by Edric's. 

[SimoneS]

Jon stabbing Daenerys sounds so improbable. If he does stab Daenerys with Longclaw, how does he get off the cliff alive? I am supposed to believe that Drogon, Rhaegal, Jorah, Grey Worm, the Unsullied, and the Dothraki, and just say, "let begones be begones" and head off to the pub for a few pints? Because that is unbelievable.  I would expect Jon's death to quickly follow. However,  if the incredulous leak that Jon murders Daenerys is true, then I agree with @bubble sparkly, Daenerys will be brought back to life.

Edited March 15, 2018 by SimoneS

[WindyNights]

6 minutes ago, anamika said:

Even if Jon or Dany or both die, I am pretty sure their baby will live. 

Why? Take out what you want from the equation. 

[GrailKing]

3 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

However,  if the incredulous leak that Jon murders Daenerys is true, then I agree with @bubble sparkly, Daenerys will be brought back to life.

Does she become vengeance crazy like Cat?

[WindyNights]

2 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Jon stabbing Daenerys sounds so improbable. If he does stab Daenerys with Longclaw, how does he get off the cliff alive? I am supposed to believe that Drogon, Rhaegal, Jorah, Grey Worm, the Unsullied, and the Dothraki, and just say, "let begones be begones" and head off to the pub for a few pints? Because that is unbelievable.  I would expect Jon's death to quickly follow. However,  if the incredulous leak that Jon murders Daenerys is true, then I agree with @bubble sparkly, Daenerys will be brought back to life.

They wouldn't even be there to begin with. This seems to have taken place in Iceland where they only have scenes with each other. 

I'm guessing this happens Beyond the Wall when they travel there on drsgonback if it does happen.

Also I'm reminded of this: 

 

Emilia: Okay, so I read the scripts this season, and I, in some kind of a daze, walked out of my house. The only thing I took was my keys, and about three hours later I arrived back home, and I still hadn’t taken it all in... I don’t know if anyone’s ready. I don’t know if TVs are ready.

[WindyNights]

11 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Does she become vengeance crazy like Cat?

No. You just focus on whatever your last desires were. That's different for everyone. 

But there is foreshadowing that fire wights don't age. Not sure how I'd feel about two lichs as the endgame rulers.

and then there's this:

Quote

Right. And poor Beric Dondarrion, who was set up as the foreshadowing of all this, every time he’s a little less Beric. His memories are fading, he’s got all these scars, he’s becoming more and more physically hideous, because he’s not a living human being anymore. His heart isn’t beating, his blood isn’t flowing in his veins, he’s a wight, but a wight animated by fire instead of by ice, now we’re getting back to the whole fire and ice thing.

Quote

The ranger studied his hands as if he had never noticed them before. "Once the heart has ceased to beat, a man's blood runs down into his extremities, where it thickens and congeals." His voice rattled in his throat, as thin and gaunt as he was. "His hands and feet swell up and turn as black as pudding. The rest of him becomes as white as milk."

Edited March 15, 2018 by WindyNights

[GrailKing]

5 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

No. You just focus on whatever your last desires were. That'a different for everyone. 

What would Danny's last thought be , you suppose?

[WindyNights]

2 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

Thinking about the likely Targ restoration has me wondering about the Starks. What do we think the chances are that the Stark name will continue past the current lot?

Any kids Jon has will most likely have Targaryen as a last name. Bran’s capacity to father kids is unknown and he is currently a robot with limited prospects of marriage. The only hope seems to be if Arya or Sansa marry someone who is happy to take the Stark name and have Stark kids (the 4th son of a Northern lord or someone of “low” birth).

If none of Bran, Sansa or Arya has kids, and DJ has more than one kid, then I guess one of the Targ kids would inherit Winterfell. The Northern lords would have a fit at the very thought. I wonder if Arya or Sansa would feel like they had a duty to marry and reproduce to ensure there is always a Stark in Winterfell?

There's literally no chance that Ned Stark's line dies out. 

Bran won't have any children but the Stark daughters are likely to make kids.

They can marry a great lord too, it doesn't have to be someone of low birth. And their firstborn son or second born son can take up the Stark name.

Presumably even Tywin was expecting for Tyrion's children with Sansa to take up the Stark name to legitimize them as overlords of the North.

4 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

What would Danny's last thought be , you suppose?

Hard to say. We'd need a POV for that.

[SimoneS]

34 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Does she become vengeance crazy like Cat?

No, she becomes like Jon currently is. She is a dragon after all.

Edited March 15, 2018 by SimoneS

[glowbug]

I disagree that Arya is all Tully inside. She and Lyanna Stark are not only supposed to look alike but be alike in personality as well. That was one of the reasons Ned had such as soft spot for her. I don’t think Arya resembles the Tullys much at all. 

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, glowbug said:

I disagree that Arya is all Tully inside. She and Lyanna Stark are not only supposed to look alike but be alike in personality as well. That was one of the reasons Ned had such as soft spot for her. I don’t think Arya resembles the Tullys much at all. 

Nah, she's more Tully inside, she has some wolfblood, but her actions are closer to Cat, and  Brandon, Lyanna was closer to Ned and Sansa, a bit naive and in love with the songs, though tomboyish. 

My view .

[Eyes High]

2 hours ago, GrailKing said:

I can see Sansa doing this, even a little Arya, Sansa is all Stark inside, with a Tully skin; Arya is a Tully inside with a Stark skin and both have shown both sides of their bloodline, both have shown F,D,H, etc. 

Sure, but "all Stark inside" or not--and personally I think that's debatable, since Sansa is indisputably lacking what Book Ned described as "the wolf blood"--Sansa isn't motivated by family duty in the books or the show, in my opinion. She does things because she wants to, not because she thinks she owes it to her family. 

That doesn't mean she won't marry and have kids (although I have my doubts), but it will be because it's what she wants, not because she feels a sense of obligation to preserve the Stark family name.

 

1 hour ago, anamika said:

Even if Jon or Dany or both die, I am pretty sure their baby will live. As much as many Stark fans want this baby and this family to die out, that's not going to happen. The Targaryens are one of the most fascinating families in Westeros and GRRM is obviously enamored with them as well considering all the back stories he writes about them. He's not going to wipe them out again at the end of the series.

And well, at the end of the day, I don't think that the story is about any particular house. As GRRM puts it, his main characters more or less start out the story as the underdogs and then try to make their way in a harsh world:

https://www.buzzfeed.com/danieldalton/purple-socks?utm_term=.qb4Xb3MLL8#.ytzjXOKMM0

The series is not about the Starks or the Targaryens. It's about the exiled and beggared princess, the outcast bastard, the dwarf who needs his mind to to be as sharp as a weapon, the misfit girl who is not able to conform to societal ideas about women and the crippled boy who has to reinvent himself in a society that does not value cripples, bastards and broken things. GRRM is telling their story.

 

Well put.

Edited March 16, 2018 by Eyes High

[Sunshinegal]

Just now, glowbug said:

I disagree that Arya is all Tully inside. She and Lyanna Stark are not only supposed to look alike but be alike in personality as well. That was one of the reasons Ned had such as soft spot for her. I don’t think Arya resembles the Tullys much at all. 

Arya looks like Lyanna and can ride a horse well like Lyanna.  I think with Ned there is this fallacy that just because somebody looks like someone means that they have all the traits of that person.  It's just like Littlefinger who sees Sansa as a younger version of Catelyn.  It makes more sense that Arya (and Sansa) will have traits of her parents who raised her rather than an aunt who died before she was born.  A lot of Arya's personality is about family, being stubborn and being somewhat impulsive and ruled by her feelings.  Also with Arya you know where you stand.  She either likes you (Jon) or hates you (Joffrey).  Catelyn is all about family, she's stubborn, impulsive and you know if she likes you or hates you. 

I think both Sansa and Arya has traits from both their parents.

As a personal example.  Both my sister and I look more like my father's family.  We don't look like our mother at all.  But we both have a lot in common with our mother personality wise.  That doesn't mean that we don't resemble our father a little in personality, but we both have more in common with our mother.

[SeanC]

Edmure and the Blackfish are both Tullys and yet are extremely different personalities, same with Ned and Brandon.  There’s no one way of being a Stark or Tully, and you can find elements of both parents in all the Stark kids.

Sort of relatedly, as a Sansa fan in particular, I’ve been kind of amused at how eager some analyses on Tumblr, etc. have been to play into this idea and the semi-related “North uber alles” philosophy that still guides many interpretations of the series, when both of those things were conceived in great part to argue that she wasn’t a “real Stark/Northerner”.  Granted, maybe there’s an obvious desire to turn common anti-Sansa notions back around against others.  But it was a reductive argument when made against her, just as it’s now reductive when used against Dany (among others).

Edited March 16, 2018 by SeanC

[SimoneS]

7 hours ago, GraceK said:

A nice article 

http://watchersonthewall.com/iain-glen-promises-closure-in-season-8-kit-harington-looks-back-on-game-of-thrones-season-7-location-gets-tourism-boost/#more-160070

I was actually left with a pretty optimistic feeling!

Me too. Glen has always been a supporter of Daenerys so if he is satisfied with the ending, I will take that as a positive.

[anamika]

1 hour ago, Sunshinegal said:

Arya looks like Lyanna and can ride a horse well like Lyanna.  I think with Ned there is this fallacy that just because somebody looks like someone means that they have all the traits of that person.

No that's not the only similarity that Ned is talking about. When he brings up Lyanna to Arya it's after the Mycah incident, when Arya stands up for Mycah against a bully like Joffrey. That's like Lyanna (knight of the laughing tree) standing up for Howland Reed against the squires who were bullying him.

We see more of Lyanna through Bran and both Lyanna and Arya defend their men:

Quote

“They shoved him down every time he tried to rise, and kicked him when he curled up on the ground. But then they heard a roar. 'That’s my father’s man you’re kicking,’ howled the she-wolf.” Bran, ASoS

"Vargo Hoat’s come back with prisoners. I saw their badges. There’s a Glover, from Deepwood Motte, he’s my father’s man. The rest too, mostly.” All of a sudden, Arya knew why her feet had brought her here. “You have to help me get them out.” Arya, ACoK

Lyanna's relationship with Benjen is pretty much like Arya's relationship with Bran. Bran in fact mistakes Lyanna and Benjen playing to be himself and Arya.

Quote

“You be quiet, stupid,” the girl said, tossing her own branch aside.

That's basically Arya.

Lyanna may have cried at Rhaegar's sappy song, but she also ended up emptying her wine over Benjen's head when he laughed.

And Lyanna chose Rhaegar because she thought Robert was a womanizer who would not be faithful to her. Even Ned considered Rhaegar to be a good man. On the other hand, Sansa continued to think of Joffrey as her sweet, sweet prince after she saw him sticking a sword into a child's face drawing blood and trusted in Cersei after she ordered Sansa's pet dead. There's naivety and then there's naivety.

They’re both great riders, like(d) carrying swords,  both dressed like men and fought like that, both look (almost at least) exactly alike, Bran, Ned, and Harwin all made the connection, etc. There’s too much to really cover, but the point is that it’s stressed enough that I’m pretty sure it’s going to serve a purpose beyond just showing that Arya will become beautiful like Lyanna was.

Never understood the Lyanna/Sansa comparisons, other than Lyanna cried for a song that one time. Sansa has more in common with her aunt Lysa -betraying her family for selfish reasons.

PS: I know that Lyanna running off with Rhaegar was also a betrayal of sorts. But I can sort of understand where she was coming from with a forced marriage on the horizon. I can even understand poor Lysa's perspective. But Sansa siding with the Lannisters against her family after seeing them do increasingly evil things is pretty annoying.

Edited March 16, 2018 by anamika

[Sunshinegal]

43 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Edmure and the Blackfish are both Tullys and yet are extremely different personalities, same with Ned and Brandon.  There’s no one way of being a Stark or Tully, and you can find elements of both parents in all the Stark kids.

Sort of relatedly, as a Sansa fan in particular, I’ve been kind of amused at how eager some analyses on Tumblr, etc. have been to play into this idea and the semi-related “North uber alles” philosophy that still guides many interpretations of the series, when both of those things were conceived in great part to argue that she wasn’t a “real Stark/Northerner”.  Granted, maybe there’s an obvious desire to turn common anti-Sansa notions back around against others.  But it was a reductive argument when made against her, just as it’s now reductive when used against Dany (among others).

Agree.  We shouldn't discount Arya's Tully traits or Sansa's Stark traits.  

[screamin]

On 3/14/2018 at 1:46 PM, Eyes High said:

That's my point, though: Jon and Dany would be "living on with irreparable losses" as well. Jon lost Ned, Robb and Rickon (in the show) just as much as Bran, Arya and Sansa did. And Dany having a miracle baby won't negate her loss of Rhaego or her dragon(s). 

Most old fairy tales do begin with irreparable losses (one parent gone, abuse by stepparent, indifference or collaboration of remaining parent in the abuse, abandonment, threats of rape, murder and whatnot) which does not preclude the 'happily ever after' ending. If GRRM's ending is 'bittersweet', it will have to avoid that pat 'happily ever after' fairytale ending, regardless of what losses it started with.

[WindyNights]

8 hours ago, SimoneS said:

No, she becomes like Jon currently is. She is a dragon after all.

Being a dragon doesn't matter.

Jon doesn't escape side effects because he's part-Targaryen but because the writers don't want to write Jon in the way that GRRM plans to.

That's why post-season 3 Beric is retconned into being a regular guy with magic powers instead of the death-seeking zombie that's been stripped of his humanity that he is in the books. 

[bubble sparkly]

11 hours ago, anamika said:

Even if Jon or Dany or both die, I am pretty sure their baby will live. As much as many Stark fans want this baby and this family to die out, that's not going to happen. The Targaryens are one of the most fascinating families in Westeros and GRRM is obviously enamored with them as well considering all the back stories he writes about them. He's not going to wipe them out again at the end of the series.

Yeah, if there is one thing I would bet money on in s8, it's that the boatsex baby lives.  There is no way GRRM isn't going full Targ restoration.  As has been pointed out before, why else would he make the last two people in an incest-practicing dynasty attractive, similar aged people of the opposite gender?  Not to mention all the books stuff with Dany and Jon referencing kids. GRRM's fascination with the Targs is so blatant, like he can't even be bothered to give Ned Stark's mother a name, but he finds sufficient inspiration to write numerous prequels and histories all about Targs.

Honestly though, I wouldn't be at all shocked if most of the remaining good guys get a relatively happy-ish ending.  Dany and Jon get married, have some baby Targs and assume some kind of leadership position. Bran chills in the Godswood for the rest of his days, Arya goes on adventures / is a knight for Dany and Jon / rules over something, and Sansa rules over something / marries someone who isn't a psychopath.  Tyrion gets Casterley Rock and continues to be Hand.  However, just because they all survive the long night it doesn't make things a bucket of sunshine.  Scores of family and friends have been killed, the lands are going to take a while to recover from all the damage and begin growing crops again, there will be rampant poverty and homelessness due to all the destruction, and the task of rebuilding Westeros is mammoth.

Plus, there will be plenty of deaths of the more minor characters (some that we care about and some that we hate), that will up the body count and make thongs feel more "bitter", even though those characters were always slated for death.

Also, if Nissa Nissa does suddenly spring up in s8, I think it's much more likely that there will be a twist and it isn't just a literal translation of someone being stabbed in the chest. I think the theory that Jon is AA, Dany is NN and their kid is LB (the breast baring and "sword" thrusting happening on the boat lol) is funny. But more seriously, the idea of lightbringer just being a super sword seems weird.  There are already valyrian steel swords that kill WW, and Beric has a flaming sword.  Lightbringer being an actual sword seems like a bit of a letdown.

Edited March 16, 2018 by bubble sparkly

[Eyes High]

11 hours ago, anamika said:

Never understood the Lyanna/Sansa comparisons, other than Lyanna cried for a song that one time. Sansa has more in common with her aunt Lysa -betraying her family for selfish reasons.

 

I don't think Sansa has anything in common with Lyanna in terms of personality. As you point out, the best example is their reactions to their respective betrothals: Sansa was dazzled by Joffrey's good looks and high status and ignored the evidence that he was a bad dude, while Lyanna saw through to Robert's true womanizing self despite his good looks and his apparent love for her, just as Arya immediately saw through the Lannisters' facade.

Sansa never would have pulled the Knight of the Laughing Tree stunt in a million years, either.

 

3 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

GRRM's fascination with the Targs is so blatant, like he can't even be bothered to give Ned Stark's mother a name, but he finds sufficient inspiration to write numerous prequels and histories all about Targs.

 

This point cannot be made often enough. GRRM cares way more about the Targs than he does about the Starks. There's no way that he wipes them out, especially when he can lay the groundwork for a bunch of post-ASOIAF stories about future Targs just as he's written hundreds of thousands of words about past Targs. I'm sure in his head he has already decided on the next ten or so post-Jon/Dany Targ monarchs' names and biographies...not that we'll ever get to read about them, but still.

 

Quote

 

Honestly though, I wouldn't be at all shocked if most of the remaining good guys get a relatively happy-ish ending.  Dany and Jon get married, have some baby Targs and assume some kind of leadership position. Bran chills in the Godswood for the rest of his days, Arya goes on adventures / is a knight for Dany and Jon / rules over something, and Sansa rules over something / marries someone who isn't a psychopath.  Tyrion gets Casterley Rock and continues to be Hand.  However, just because they all survive the long night it doesn't make things a bucket of sunshine.  Scores of family and friends have been killed, the lands are going to take a while to recover from all the damage and begin growing crops again, there will be rampant poverty and homelessness due to all the destruction, and the task of rebuilding Westeros is mammoth.

Plus, there will be plenty of deaths of the more minor characters (some that we care about and some that we hate), that will up the body count and make thongs feel more "bitter", even though those characters were always slated for death.

 

Exactly. Remember what Isaac Hempstead Wright said about fans' reactions to the ending? "It will be too happy for some people, or too sad, or too whatever." That order is significant.

Edited March 16, 2018 by Eyes High

[Edith]

"In exciting location news, we have been hearing from multiple sources that there has been much activity (including clouds of smoke) at Saintfield. Why is that exciting? Saintfield was the site for the pre-eminent pitched battle: the Battle of the Bastards! Unlike in season six, this time much of the Winterfell action was shot directly at the gates of the Moneyglass set (which required major remodeling,) but it may be that the sequence is partly being filmed in the battleground where the Boltons were defeated.

If two locations for a single battle aren’t enough for you, there may yet be a third! As you may remember, last month we speculated that the new green screen set at Magheramorne “is probably going to be used for action sequence elements that were deemed to be unfilmable in a real set.” 

Sapochnik was supposed to begin filming in the month of March a huge battle scene, is it this and not in the KL set?

About the picture: 

"My best guess is this is a photo taken at Zumaia beach, either for season seven episode four, when they went into the caves, or episode five, when Jon went away. Could it be from season eight? It could be. Jon could still wear that hairstyle some of the time. Even the spoilers could be true! But I wouldn’t give it much credence without further proof".

Edited March 16, 2018 by Edith

[anamika]

WOTW are lagging behind Freefolk in terms of filming pics and spoilers these days.

I found the casting info more interesting:

Quote

Our sources revealed Game of Thrones is currently looking to fill two roles in their last season — though, interestingly, they’re going to fill them with three actors.

First of all, there is a young mother, aged 25 to 30, described as a poor mother in a survival situation. They’re looking for a naturalistic style, and improvisation skills.

Then there’s the mother’s child, who will be played by identical twin girls, aged 5 to 8. This is a pretty common solution to scheduling problems with children, who are only allowed to work a few hours a day thanks to child labor laws. Using twins allows them to double the daily workload. Going by the “naturalistic acting style,” “characterful faces,” and “scrappy” demeanor they’re looking for, this family is likely Northern, or perhaps they are King’s Landing commoners — no accent is specified. The character will only appear in one episode, in a number of scenes. Whoever the lucky twins are will be shooting on May 4 and 9 as well as between June 19 and 26, all in Northern Ireland.

Young, poor mother and daughter in a survival situation appearing in a number of scenes in one episode. We may be introduced to a number of likeable characters like Karsi so that they can be killed off. These characters sound Northern. Looks like they are filming till the end of June at least.

[Eyes High]

So who is filming at Saintfield? Seems to be Kit, Maisie, and Alfie for sure. Emilia, Isaac, Peter Dinklage and Jacob Anderson were in Belfast earlier this month, but I dunno if they’re still there.

Seems like Theon lives long enough to make it back north and fight side by side with the Starks. Aw. Theon’s arc is one of my favourite parts of the show, so I hope S8 gives the character a satisfactory sendoff.

 

Not at Saintfield (confirmed recent sightings elsewhere): NCW, Gwen, Pilou, Sophie, and Carice.

Sophie has the unusual distinction of being the only main cast member of Team Jon/Dany who has been away from Belfast for two months. (I don’t consider Pod and Missandei’s actors main cast.) Even the other non-combatant characters (Bran, Tyrion) have made appearances since January, but not Sophie.  I’m kind of wondering if Sansa is in fact taken prisoner by Cersei after all, since dungeon scenes could have been knocked out pretty quickly last fall. After the blowback over Sansa’s rape, I’m guessing any torture of Sansa would take place offscreen, anyway.

Lena hasn’t been seen near Belfast for quite some time, either. So maybe Cersei and Sansa do get some quality time in S8...?

I doubt the mother and daughter are northern, because usually casting calls specify a Northern accent when they want northern characters. Could have something to do with KL, maybe...? It looks like the KL filming will be last or close to last.

Edited March 16, 2018 by Eyes High

[Edith]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

I’m kind of wondering if Sansa is in fact taken prisoner by Cersei after all, since dungeon scenes could have been knocked out pretty quickly last fall. After the blowback over Sansa’s rape, I’m guessing any torture of Sansa would take place offscreen, anyway.

Lena hasn’t been seen near Belfast for quite some time, either. So maybe Cersei and Sansa do get some quality time in S8...?

 

I've been thinking this too. Sophie was in London for two weeks (instead of going with her fiancé to Australia), but she was only seen Friday's and weekends. The last day of the Croatia filming, she had a premiere for her new movie in London or in a close by place and she didn't appear. Also there was a fourth actor in Dubrovnik, one the crew protected.  

From the freefolk, I've put this already in an old post:

https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/81u26t/dubrovnik_chronicles_some_additional_information/

Quote

Not at Saintfield (confirmed recent sightings elsewhere): NCW, Gwen, Pilou, Sophie, and Carice.

NCW and Gwen were part of the Moneyglass set or at least were at Belfast during the length of that filming.

I wonder if we're going to see two battles in the North. One against the WW, were we will see full team Dany facing WW, and when this is happening, GC attacks a defenseless Winterfell.

1 hour ago, anamika said:

WOTW are lagging behind Freefolk in terms of filming pics and spoilers these days.

Yes, but a least now we know they are filming the same battle. Freefolk were speculating the filming was happening in the woods. 

Edited March 16, 2018 by Edith

[Eyes High]

2 hours ago, Edith said:

I've been thinking this too. Sophie was in London for two weeks (instead of going with her fiancé to Australia), but she was only seen Friday's and weekends. The last day of the Croatia filming, she had a premiere for her new movie in London or in a close by place and she didn't appear. Also there was a fourth actor in Dubrovnik, one the crew protected.  

 

Could Sophie have been the mysterious fourth (assuming there was a mysterious fourth)? Hmm.

Sansa being taken prisoner by Cersei and this leading to some sort of Arya/Jaime/Brienne/Sandor-led rescue mission could tie into a few plot threads in the show: Sansa's lingering worry about Cersei, the hints that Sansa's not safe at Winterfell, Cersei's lingering anger at Sansa (which I doubt the revelation of the truth about Joffrey's death did anything to dispel), the Cleganebowl that was promised, Sandor and Brienne protecting the Stark girls, Sandor and Arya's relationship, a final reckoning between Jaime and Cersei, Jaime/Brienne, Arya vs. Cersei, etc. Assuming that it is a Cersei-ordered attack on Winterfell, and assuming that Sansa is taken during this attack, I'm guessing that Cersei's enjoyment in torturing Ellaria and Tyene will lead her to order that Sansa be taken alive. It looks like from Gwendoline, Rory and Maisie's involvement in the Winterfell battle filming that Brienne, Sandor and Arya will be too tied up fighting to protect Sansa, which might explain how she gets captured.

Peter Dinklage was in Belfast in early March, around the same time that Emilia's Big Scenes were filmed at Moneyglass--which I and others have speculated will be Dany surveying the burning of the Unsullied dead after the battle ends--so I'm guessing that Tyrion is present during that scene and is not captured by Cersei. 

Speaking of those Big Scenes, Jacob Anderson was spotted in Belfast around that time as well. Maybe the Big Scenes also involve Dany tending to a fatally injured Grey Worm as he dies? Brutal. 

For the crowd that thinks Jon/Dany ending up married with a child is too sweet an ending, I think Dany coping with the fact that she led not only two trusted friends (Missandei and Grey Worm) but also thousands of devoted followers to their deaths--since I assume the Dothraki and the Unsullied are going to be wiped out--will temper the sweetness considerably. I doubt D&D are terribly interested in leaving open the question of how Jon and Dany will integrate the Dothraki and the Unsullied into Westeros culture, so I'm guessing they're all going to die.

Sophie hinted that she would be finishing filming this summer, so I wonder if Sansa will be involved in the KL exterior scenes, which again could tie into Cersei taking Sansa prisoner.

Edited March 16, 2018 by Eyes High

[Edith]

19 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I'm guessing that Cersei's enjoyment in torturing Ellaria and Tyene will lead her to order that Sansa be taken alive. It looks like from Gwendoline, Rory and Maisie's involvement in the Winterfell battle filming that Brienne, Sandor and Arya will be too tied up fighting to protect Sansa, which might explain how she gets captured.

Don't forget how upset she was that Lady Olenna got such a painless death.

Quote

I think Dany coping with the fact that she led not only two trusted friends (Missandei and Grey Worm) but also thousands of devoted followers to their deaths--since I assume the Dothraki and the Unsullied are going to be wiped out--will temper the sweetness considerably. 

And probably another dragon. In the old season 7 outline, only Drogon survived wight hunt.  

I don't expect any character development next season though, but it would be interesting to see it! 

[GrailKing]

[shireenbamfatheon]

Jesus. You'd think Sansa was a real-life person responsible for wiping out a country the way every conversation just keeps coming back to how terrible a person she is.

So many fake leaks and they all have one thing in common: no one seems to care enough about Bran to write a proper plot for him. You'd never think he was one of the supposed Big Five judging by the way the show has handled him so far. Or maybe he really is going to be a prop for super special Jon to realize his destiny in the show.

Maybe it was too much to hope for, but I wanted to see the psychological side of fighting during an "eternal winter" in complete darkness, with dwindling resources, undead enemies and creatures people thought parts of children's tales. Really disappointed that it'll just be one battle after another as opposed to something similar to Old Nan's tales. I hope the books are better on that front (if they're ever released).

[GrailKing]

37 minutes ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

Jesus. You'd think Sansa was a real-life person responsible for wiping out a country the way every conversation just keeps coming back to how terrible a person she is.

So many fake leaks and they all have one thing in common: no one seems to care enough about Bran to write a proper plot for him. You'd never think he was one of the supposed Big Five judging by the way the show has handled him so far. Or maybe he really is going to be a prop for super special Jon to realize his destiny in the show.

Maybe it was too much to hope for, but I wanted to see the psychological side of fighting during an "eternal winter" in complete darkness, with dwindling resources, undead enemies and creatures people thought parts of children's tales. Really disappointed that it'll just be one battle after another as opposed to something similar to Old Nan's tales. I hope the books are better on that front (if they're ever released).

I'm pretty sure Bran will figure big AND be in much danger through out the last season, most of his scenes will be through visions, which sometimes is hard to frame in drama.

[GrailKing]

3 hours ago, Sunshinegal said:

I know GRRM made comparisons between Lyanna and Arya multiple times, but they are not the same person.  They both share many Northern traits because both of them were raised in the North.  Arya looks up to and respects both Ned and Jon and I think that in some ways she wants to be just like them.  But in many ways I feel Arya acts a lot like Catelyn.  Both are stubborn, impulsive, pushy, holds onto grudges, and thinks about family.  I feel that Arya is influenced by both her parents and not by her dead aunt.

I also think that Ned very much loved Lyanna.  He is also worried that Arya will share his sister's fate.  Before his conversation with Arya, she ran off and was missing for a few days.  I think a lot of emotion clouded his assessment that Arya is like Lyanna.  I also think emotion clouded Ned's judgment in regards to Robert and his brother Brandon also. 

In one way Lyanna and Arya are very different.  Lyanna ran away rather than be with Robert.  Arya wanted Gendry to make swords for her family.  Arya wanted to be with Gendry and Lyanna didn't want to be with Robert. 

I don't totally disagree here, Lyanna though was ~5 years older, and had to know what they were doing could cause harm at some point.

Sansa was totally naive and foolish; but had no real idea of overall consequences of the politics at that time .

[GrailKing]

What do people think we'll see at the wall with such a huge Green screen?

[GrailKing]

38 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I’m very interested in that big green screen at Magheramorne. 

There was < 100 NW men, plus some Wildlings, so why would we have a big screen there?

AOTD, bypassed CB, so what could be happening there?

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, GrailKing said:

There was < 100 NW men, plus some Wildlings, so why would we have a big screen there?

AOTD, bypassed CB, so what could be happening there?

I dunno, but it had better involve ice spiders. 

In all seriousness, though, I don’t know. They used limited green screen for scenes like Bran walking amid the AOTD, and the attack on the cave. What could they possibly need that much green screen for?

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I dunno, but it had better involve ice spiders. 

In all seriousness, though, I don’t know. They used limited green screen for scenes like Bran walking amid the AOTD, and the attack on the cave. What could they possibly need that much green screen for?

Just getting ready to goto bed and I saw this on WOTW: http://watchersonthewall.com/game-of-thrones-season-8-exclusive-new-characters-and-old-locations/#more-160096

[Edith]

Unsullied and/or Wildlings?

Is that a wolf? A horse? WTH?!

Edited March 17, 2018 by Edith

[Eyes High]

14 minutes ago, Edith said:

Unsullied and/or Wildlings?

Is that a wolf? A horse? WTH?!

In the fourth Oakleaf pic, the extras appear to be holding spears. Unsullied in winter gear would be my guess.

I have no idea what that weird shape is supposed to be.