Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

anamika · February 2, 2018

3 hours ago, Cosmosgravitation said:

My personal prediction is that Jon and Dany marry, have a son, and Dany dies. I'm less sure about what happens after that, but going on all the foreshadowing in the books I think Jon does remain as king. While it's not my personal preference, I also think it's possible he ends up marrying Arya some time after Dany dies. There is some foreshadowing for it in the books, and it might tie into Maisie saying she had to go back to the first season for her arc. Jon and Dany's son would be the next king, Jon and Arya's son would be Warden of the North and continue the Stark name. Sansa dies, Tyrion dies at the very end or is sent to the Wall, Bran becomes the next Three Eyed Raven, Davos or Sam as Hand. All the dragons die except Rhaegal, which Jon rides.

Of course, I kinda hope I'm completely wrong just to be surprised.

I think between Jon and Dany, there are greater chances of Jon dying. I can't forget GRRM saying that there is a price to pay for resurrection - Gandalf had it too easy. If Jon comes back, he comes back altered and he comes back only to kill the Others/WW/NK and then die/disappear. There have been references in the show to the NK being Jon's sole mission - even last season where Beric and Jon have this conversation about life and death and how their main duty is to serve the realms of men. This is also fantasy and heroes in this genre either tend to die or go away at the end of their quest - Rand Al' Thor, Frodo, Paul Atreides etc.

Dany is also the only character for whom GRRM has given a ruling arc in the books where she spend some 9 chapters mulling over the minutia and nitty gritty details of actually ruling because according to GRRM 'Ruling is hard'. It's not just enough to think 'If I am ever a queen, I'll make them love me.' to be a good queen. It's more important to actually do and learn from one's mistakes.

If Dany does die, I hope she goes out in a blaze of glory. Not in childbirth. That's been overused in ASOIAF already. I agree that there's a chance their son will sit on the throne if both of them die. But who will be his caretaker until he comes of age?

Then we have Arya in the books who is currently another version of fAegon. As Varys describes Aegon to Kevan:

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Aegon has been shaped for rule since before he could walk. He has been trained in arms, as befits a knight to be, but that was not the end of his education. He reads and writes, he speaks several tongues, he has studied history and law and poetry. A septa has instructed him in the mysteries of the Faith since he was old enough to understand them. He has lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swum in rivers and mended nets and learned to wash his own clothes at need. He can fish and cook and bind up a wound, he knows what it is like to be hungry, to be hunted, to be afraid. Tommen has been taught that kingship is his right. Aegon knows that kingship is his duty, that a king must put his people first, and live and rule for them.”

If there is anyone who can 'break the wheel', it's going to be Arya. Her kinship and closeness to the smallfolk is constant throughout all her chapters. I am not sure if GRRM is still heading for his original Jon/Arya plot - if he does that will be most surprising. I think he has moved away from that, but Jon and Arya's relationship is still very important in the books and they may be teaming up to take down the undead.

Bran is another character along with Arya who I see surviving till the very end and having an important role to play against the Others as well as rebuilding Westeros.

I have always thought Tyrion's ending would be getting Casterly Rock at long last - but he may very well die , if his story is moving towards betrayal. If it's not betrayal, what will Tyrion's story be next season? Adviser to Dany and then Lord of Casterly Rock? A repeat of his season 7 storyline? Sounds boring. I think there were some hints that Tyrion and Dany will split next season - the contrived reasons the show came up with for Tyrion being against Dany burning the Tullys, his failed plans, his worried look at Jon/Dany.

Sansa ... for me it's hard to see her as being in charge of Winterfell or anywhere in the North. She's a far cry from the northern girls like Arya, Lyanna, Wylla, Dacey, Alys etc. If she lives, she could end up as lady of the Vale and control the Vale armies - all that grain they stored will be useful when the war against the Others moves south. Her marriage to Tyrion is still valid and may only end with Tyrion's death. It's hard to see her as queen in KL considering she has no claim, no armies to take it and Tyrion may not end up on the throne. If he does, we may get Sansa and Tyrion on the IT, if it still stands. The only reason I see increased chances of her death on the show is because they have installed her as Lady of Winterfell by nerfing Jon, Bran and Arya and I can't see the same happening in the books. Plus, her story has so drastically changed with significant characters like the Hound being a non-entity in her plot.

So as I see it, characters with the highest chance of dying next season are Jon and Sansa, best chances of survival are Arya and Bran. Everyone else is somewhere in the middle.

Edited February 2, 2018 by anamika

GraceK · February 2, 2018

I’m interested to see Brans role next season. He was googleBran all season 7 but I don’t think that the apex of his story. I feel like he is supposed have an important role to play in defeating the NK. Isn’t that what the children of the forest said? Or am I remembering it wrong?

WindyNights · February 2, 2018

45 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

/Freefolk has a roundup of the Dubrovnik filming information here.

Well, going back to Lady, Lady didn't die as a result of anything Lady had done, did she?

The problem is that the main piece of evidence in favour of Arya ending up as Jon's queen is Jon and Arya's apparent requited love in the outline, coupled with GRRM's repeated statements to the effect that he has never changed the ending, and that ASOIAF's ending is the same he planned in 1991. However, the outline never actually says that Jon and Arya wind up together, only that their distress over their mutual passion ends when Jon's parentage is revealed. Furthermore, the outline also stated pretty clearly that the big five survive. So fans of a Jon/Arya king/queen endgame based on the outline can't have it both ways: either the outline is bullshit GRRM made up to appease the publishers as GRRM has claimed and therefore Jon/Arya won't be a thing at all, or else the outline's ending has been preserved and therefore Dany survives along with the other members of the big five, meaning that, given Jon and Dany's love story in the show, that Jon/Dany is and always has been endgame.

Possible, sure, but highly unlikely. One of GRRM's editors said that she knows "where Tyrion ends up," language which pretty much gives away that he lives. Also, the outline made it clear that Tyrion along with the other four leads was untouchable, so if GRRM is indeed sticking with the same ending he always planned, a living Tyrion will be part of it.

What Wall? The Wall has been destroyed, and when the WWs are defeated, there will be no need to rebuild it. The show has also suggested with Bran's two visions of the same stone formation--one in the past when the first WW was created (green and vibrant) and one in the present (completely frozen)--that once the WWs are gone, the lands of always winter will become green again.

1) Lady is a wolf not an actual human character with an arc.

2) Tyrion ending up somewhere could just as easily mean ending up in the grace.

3) The Wall hasn't been destroyed in the show. All the White Walkers did is create a hole in the Wall.

4) The outline which GRRM claims to be bs says that the main five live to the end but not past the end.

Eyes High · February 2, 2018

1 hour ago, anamika said:

I think between Jon and Dany, there are greater chances of Jon dying. I can't forget GRRM saying that there is a price to pay for resurrection - Gandalf had it too easy. If Jon comes back, he comes back altered and he comes back only to kill the Others/WW/NK and then die/disappear. There have been references in the show to the NK being Jon's sole mission - even last season where Beric and Jon have this conversation about life and death and how their main duty is to serve the realms of men. This is also fantasy and heroes in this genre either tend to die or go away at the end of their quest - Rand Al' Thor, Frodo, Paul Atreides etc.D

The problem I keep coming back to is if Jon is supposed to die in the end saving Westeros, why bother making him the legitimate heir? And if he's supposed to be the endgame king, why kill him and make him (effectively) a zombie?

1 hour ago, anamika said:

Sansa ... for me it's hard to see her as being in charge of Winterfell or anywhere in the North.

Sansa's the one who's really in trouble if you consider the outline and GRRM's repeated statements that he intends to stick to the same ending as the outline, not only because the outline potentially implies that she dies, but also because Sansa didn't rank up there with the big five when GRRM planned his original ending, meaning that GRRM planned Winterfell to go to someone other than Sansa. The show has, as you said, bizarrely contrived a set of circumstances where Sansa is Lady of Winterfell, but that's unlikely to stick for the endgame if GRRM is sticking to the ending he planned without Sansa in it. That means that TV Sansa isn't going to end up with Winterfell even though Sansa as of the end of S7 seems firmly ensconced as Lady of Winterfell with no intention of being anything else, with neither Bran nor Arya interested in supplanting her.

So how are D&D going to get Sansa away from Winterfell when in the show she seems set to be endgame Lady of Winterfell and Arya and Bran have both acknowledged her as the rightful ruler of Winterfell? Killing her off, probably.

36 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

1) Lady is a wolf not an actual human character with an arc.

That's no argument if Sansa's fate will mirror that of her direwolf's, and Lady died through no fault of her own.

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2) Tyrion ending up somewhere could just as easily mean ending up in the [grave]

Then she wouldn't have said "where he ends up," since "dead" is not a place. It's very telling language.

...Of course, anyone who seriously thinks Tyrion is going to die is kidding themselves. It's possible, but highly unlikely. Tyrion's most likely to have the "Frodo"-type ending GRRM so admired, where the character as GRRM put it "doesn't get the girl" (who's less likely to get the girl--any girl--than Tyrion?) and is permanently fucked up and scarred by his experiences.

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3) The Wall hasn't been destroyed in the show. All the White Walkers did is create a hole in the Wall.

That's a show universe quibble. In the books, I have no doubt that the Wall is coming down thanks to Chekhov's Horn of Joramun.

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4) The outline which GRRM claims to be bs says that the main five live to the end but not past the end.

The actual line is that the characters "make it through all three volumes." Through means past the end. Not to mention that in context, this line is preceded in the outline with a statement that GRRM wants to leave the impression that no character is safe, "however," five characters will make it through all three volumes. That "however" is key, since it means that in spite of creating the impression to the contrary, these five characters are, in fact, safe. GRRM also describes the story in the outline as a coming-of-age story for the main five, which again is a strong indicator that they don't die.

GRRM has been saying for a long time--long before the outline was leaked--that he always planned to have the same ending, and it's clear that the outline isn't all BS (same lead characters, several similar plot points, same deaths, etc.), so it's hard to give his claim that the outline is all BS much credence. He made changes (Jon/Arya/Tyrion love triangle, Arya going north, Ramsay sacking and burning Winterfell instead of Tyrion, etc.), but he also clearly had certain elements always in mind: Tyrion being framed for murder and forced into exile, e.g. So the only real question is whether or not he changed the ending he originally planned, and he said many times before the outline leak that he hasn't, so let's just say I have my doubts.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Eyes High

GrailKing · February 2, 2018

On 22/08/2017 at 1:15 AM, LadyChaos said:

See, I feel like Sansa doesn't care about the war with the WW's. I feel like all she cares about is getting revenge on Cersei. Because she cannot see the bigger picture, and set aside her personal feelings and desires, shows she is not ready to be any kind of ruler. If she had gone to KL for this meeting, then I would say that Cersei was probably going to die because Sansa would have killed her. I do hope that Sansa does get to kill her though. She at least deserves that.

Sansa cares, the way she's running the place shows that and the one thing she has over Jon, is she knows Cersei is crazy and vile enough to send troops North even in winter.

Will she be too occupied along with Jon and company that she forgets Cersei craziness, or she still remembers, but Jon won't listen her warning ?

The girl needs a spy hopefully she gets Bran's assistance.

On 22/08/2017 at 11:34 PM, Wouter said:

Sansa chose to stay in Winterfell, in order to avoid Cersei (and to continue preparations for the war with the WWs - she is concerned with keeping Jon's army together, as well as feeding it). So how does that translate to only caring about getting revenge on Cersei? I'd think she would count on Dany and Tyrion to take care of that.

Yupper

On 28/08/2017 at 7:40 AM, bubble sparkly said:

I'm curious how they will play out the reveal to Jon though. Will Bran announce it in front of all the Starks plus Northern lords, as well as all Dany's crew? Or will it be Bran only, or just all the Stark sibs?

I'm wondering if the siblings already know, Bran was waving the Raven scroll to Sam; Sansa waved it in front of LF.

WindyNights · February 2, 2018

33 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Sansa's the one who's really in trouble if you consider the outline and GRRM's repeated statements that he intends to stick to the same ending as the outline, not only because the outline potentially implies that she dies, but also because Sansa didn't rank up there with the big five when GRRM planned his original ending, meaning that GRRM planned Winterfell to go to someone other than Sansa. The show has, as you said, bizarrely contrived a set of circumstances where Sansa is Lady of Winterfell, but that's unlikely to stick for the endgame if GRRM is sticking to the ending he planned without Sansa in it. That means that TV Sansa isn't going to end up with Winterfell even though Sansa as of the end of S7 seems firmly ensconced as Lady of Winterfell with no intention of being anything else, with neither Bran nor Arya interested in supplanting her.

It doesn't actually imply that she dies. You'll have to point it out. It states that she'll the siding against her family but that's really it. She's not in line for the throne so she's not one of those people that Jaime murders.

Show Bran has pretty much stated that he'll never be Lord of Winterfell so that implies that the ending is for a lady of Winterfell between Sansa and Arya. And Arya-Nymeria's encounter is supposed to mirror the ending for Arya according to the writers which implies that Arya can't be domesticated.

That's no argument if Sansa's fate will mirror that of her direwolf's, and Lady died through no fault of her own.

But why would it? Jon died and yet Ghost survived.

Bran's alive yet Summer is dead.

The only direwolves that died when their masters did is Robb and Rickon.

Then she wouldn't have said "where he ends up," since "dead" is not a place. It's very telling language.

That's not actually true. In the grave is a place. Like when GRRM says he knows who ends up on the Iron Throne doesn't necessarily mean someone ends up on there because the answer could be one.

That's a show universe quibble. In the books, I have no doubt that the Wall is coming down thanks to Chekhov's Horn of Joramun.

Then it's just speculation that could very well be wrong. We don't know how completely it falls down.

stormborn · February 2, 2018

I always find it interesting that the original outline is declared as sacrosanct whenever someone wants to point to the likelihood of Sansa's death. Despite George saying that the outline was BS and his intentions for the characters have grown and evolved past that. The Sansa that exists in the outline is different to the one who exists in the books/show currently. So I don't think her fate in the outline is a great indicator of what her overall fate will be.

And also the belief that the 'Main Five' are all safe because George said that in the outline some odd 20 years ago is similarly naive.

No character at this point is untouchable.

I am excited to see that Sapochnik seems to be creating another masterpiece and I do wonder what episode he's filming right now. It doesn't make complete sense for the NK to burn the living seeing as he wants to recruit them for his army so maybe Cersei does send the Golden Company North and attacks Winterfell.

stormborn · February 2, 2018

1 hour ago, WindyNights said:

But why would it? Jon died and yet Ghost survived.

Bran's alive yet Summer is dead.

The only direwolves that died when their masters did is Robb and Rickon.

Exactly. I believe that Lady's death signified the death of Sansa's innocence and was symbolic in the same way Summer's death was symbolic of Bran Stark ~dying~ and Bran's journey to becoming the Three Eyed Raven.

anamika · February 2, 2018

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

The problem I keep coming back to is if Jon is supposed to die in the end saving Westeros, why bother making him the legitimate heir? And if he's supposed to be the endgame king, why kill him and make him (effectively) a zombie?

It could be that his lineage is important only in so far as his ability to ride dragons. As for him being the legitimate heir...yeah, that's a bit of a confusion. Maybe it's there only for conflict and drama. It's a shame that show Jon is so one-dimensional. In the books, Jon is faced with so many hard decisions time and time again - Robb or NW, Ygritte or NW, Winterfell or NW, Arya or NW. He's like Maester Aemon, tempted again and again and chosing duty over love except for that last one where he broke his vows for Arya and ended up losing his life. As GRRM said, 'the human heart in conflict with itself is the only thing worth writing about'. His being the heir is certainly going to be a shock for Dany and she now has to change her way of thinking. Jon is going to be conflicted - what to chose, what to do.

There are just so many wonderful quotes from Aemon to Jon about duty, love, ruling.

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We're all human. Oh, we all do our duty when there's no cost to it. Honor comes easy then. Yet, sooner or later in every man's life there comes a day when it's not easy. A day when he must choose."

"Love is the death of duty."

"Allow me to give my lord one last piece of counsel, the same counsel that I once gave my brother when we parted for the last time. He was three-and-thirty when the Great Council chose him to mount the Iron Throne. A man grown with sons of his own, yet in some ways still a boy. Egg had an innocence to him, a sweetness we all loved. Kill the boy within you, I told him the day I took ship for the Wall. It takes a man to rule. An Aegon, not an Egg. Kill the boy and let the man be born. You are half the age that Egg was, and your own burden is a crueler one, I fear. You will have little joy of your command, but I think you have the strength in you to do the things that must be done. Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy and let the man be born."

Both in the books and the show, Aemon was the wisest teacher Jon had.

Maybe being the legitimate heir is just there to complicate matters for Jon and Dany. If there is going to be no IT at the end of it all, does being the legitimate heir even matter? Maybe the surviving Starks will usher in a new era.

Or maybe Jon and Dany survive and sit on the IT with their babies and we have a Targaryen Restoration and all the Stark fans will be pissed off because it was supposed to be a time for wolves dammit!!

47 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

Bran's alive yet Summer is dead.

Summer is not dead in the books. Nor is he going to die. The show's shitty way of not wanting to film direwolves is to kill them.

Arya and Nymeria are bonded, they are part of each other. There's no way Nymeria is going to turn away from Arya - the show wrote that nonsense because they don't care about direwolves and wanted to tick off Nymeria from their check list. GRRM has indicated that Nymeria and her wolf pack will be playing an important role and not just showing up to say bye-bye. They are currently heading North.

Where is Ghost? He is a big part of who Jon is as a character in the books. Ghost has been missing for 2 seasons. Does that mean in the books Ghost is also unimportant? They will probably kill off Ghost in the first episode next season to cut costs.

Jon, Arya, Bran are all strong wargs in the books, who will most probably communicate with each other through their wolf dreams. The direwolves are important characters in the books. Summer, Nymeria, Ghost and even Shaggydog may have important roles to play in the story moving forward.

Edited February 2, 2018 by anamika

Eyes High · February 2, 2018

1 hour ago, WindyNights said:

It doesn't actually imply that she dies. You'll have to point it out. It states that she'll the siding against her family but that's really it. She's not in line for the throne so she's not one of those people that Jaime murders.

Except that if Jaime is sufficiently ruthless to murder everyone in line to the throne, he's probably also ruthless enough to murder someone who could potentially be pregnant with the future heir. (And I'm guessing Sansa wasn't going to sit on her hands while her infant son was murdered.) Not to mention that Sansa is never mentioned in the outline after this.

1 hour ago, stormborn said:

I always find it interesting that the original outline is declared as sacrosanct whenever someone wants to point to the likelihood of Sansa's death. Despite George saying that the outline was BS and his intentions for the characters have grown and evolved past that.

GRRM's claim that the outline is total BS is itself BS, since several aspects are clearly the same, and his claims that he always had the same ending in mind since 1991 long predate the leaking of the outline. It's frankly ridiculous to take GRRM's assertion that the outline is total BS at face value, given the circumstances--an outline leaking which GRRM believed wouldn't see the light of day for another 20 years--in which GRRM is making it.

And if GRRM planned an ending for the main five without Sansa, that fact in of itself doesn't necessarily mean she's still going to die in ASOIAF (although it certainly doesn't help her chances), but it does mean she's not going to get anything big: no Winterfell, no Queen in the North, and certainly no Queen of Westeros (consort or otherwise). And that would be fine, if the show had hinted at another endgame for her. However, given that she's currently Lady of Winterfell in the show, a position which is incompatible with GRRM's planned endgame, with no other likely prospects on the horizon set up in the show (no marriage to Tyrion, no connection to Sweetrobin, no SanSan, etc.), it points to Sansa dying to pave the way for Arya or Bran to take over.

Bran having the same name as Bran the Builder takes on additional significance if Winterfell is going to be burned (again), so maybe Bran does end up with Winterfell after all.

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The Sansa that exists in the outline is different to the one who exists in the books/show currently. So I don't think her fate in the outline is a great indicator of what her overall fate will be.

If he killed Sansa off in the outline, he probably is going to kill her off in the books as well. Outline Ned, Outline Cat, Outline Robb and Outline Joffrey all died, even if the circumstances of their deaths differed in the published ASOIAF books. If Outline Sansa was intended to die, ASOIAF Sansa is doomed.

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And also the belief that the 'Main Five' are all safe because George said that in the outline some odd 20 years ago is similarly naive.

GRRM has said for years, long before the outline leaked, that he always planned the same ending since 1991 (two years before the 1993 outline), so it's not so much "naive" as a logical conclusion.

I can't blame GRRM for frantically trying to dismiss the outline as total BS after the embarrassing leak, since the outline reveals that five characters are safe, and thereby spoils his ending at least in part, not to mention confirms that Ned is not Jon's father, but I'm frankly surprised anyone actually fell for it.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Eyes High

stormborn · February 2, 2018

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

It's frankly ridiculous to take GRRM's assertion that the outline is total BS at face value, given the circumstances--an outline leaking which GRRM believed wouldn't see the light of day for another 20 years--in which GRRM is making it.

Well this is conjecture and speculation predicated on the idea that George only said it's BS to throw us off the scent that it really isn't. Lol, I guess George and us are all in a real WHO'S ON THIRD, WHAT'S ON SECOND situation.

In any case, what I'm saying is; it's completely within the realm of possibility that George is not sticking completely to the original outline, that was originally meant to be a trilogy.

This series has turned into a sprawling seven book saga with so many rich characters, character dynamics and motivations that have far outgrown the original outline. For George to write seven books and have the original characters' journeys change so much from that of the original outline, just to have them meet the same ends as they do in the outline; doesn't seem realistic to me.

But let's say you're right and George is sticking to the outline completely with no deviations or changes, then I guess we should be gearing up for a Jon and Arya hook up along with a jealous vengeful Tyrion?

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

but it does mean she's not going to get anything big: no Winterfell, no Queen in the North, and certainly no Queen of Westeros (consort or otherwise). And that would be fine, if the show had hinted at another endgame for her. However, given that she's currently Lady of Winterfell in the show, a position which is incompatible with GRRM's planned endgame, with no other likely prospects on the horizon set up in the show (no marriage to Tyrion, no connection to Sweetrobin, no SanSan, etc.), it points to Sansa dying to pave the way for Arya or Bran to take over.

Bran having the same name as Bran the Builder takes on additional significance if Winterfell is going to be burned (again), so maybe Bran does end up with Winterfell after all.

Well it is hinted in the show that Sansa will help to rebuild Winterfell and I think it's been pretty heavily underscored that Bran will become the Three Eyed Raven.

Bran doesn't even refer to himself as Brandon Stark (his namesake) anymore and while I won't presume to know how you feel about the character of Sansa, all of the above sounds as though it's colored by personal bias and opinion rather than what's actually happening on the show and in the books.

What you've basically said is Sansa will die on the show (and in the books I'm assuming as well?) because she potentially died in the original outline and everything that has happened to her on the show (and in the books) doesn't matter because of her fate in the original outline, which does not, in any way shape or form, resemble the current trajectory her character arc.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Edited February 2, 2018 by stormborn

Sunshinegal · February 2, 2018

I actually think both Sansa and Arya will live. I think their fates are linked together. Either they both die or they both live.

I think that Sansa will end up having Ned's fate and Arya will end up having Catelyn's fate. Sansa will be the Stark in the North. Arya will leave the home she loves and marry a lord. These fates are the opposite of what they wanted in the beginning of the series. Sansa wanted to go south and marry a prince. She thought she would leave the North and lose her Stark name. Arya never wanted to marry a lord and wanted a life of adventure.

They each got what they wanted, but it was twisted. Sansa prince was a monster and Arya saw misery in a war zone. The experiences both had were horrible. What they wanted change. Sansa is reclaiming her Northern identity and being proud of that heritage. Arya wants a stable home and her family back. When she hoped to reunite with her family, it was taken away.

It would be interesting if each sister at the end of the series would want what their sister wanted at the beginning. What they wanted changed because of the things they experienced. I think that is a conflict of the heart, that what we want as we grow older changes as we experience new things.

I'm basing this on where I think the ending for the books might be. It's my interpretation and I could be wrong. We won't know for sure until the end of the final episode

anamika · February 2, 2018

6 hours ago, stormborn said:

In any case, what I'm saying is; it's completely within the realm of possibility that George is not sticking completely to the original outline, that was originally meant to be a trilogy.

This series has turned into a sprawling seven book saga with so many rich characters, character dynamics and motivations that have far outgrown the original outline. For George to write seven books and have the original characters' journeys change so much from that of the original outline, just to have them meet the same ends as they do in the outline; doesn't seem realistic to me.

In which case, GRRM is a bald-faced liar when he keeps insisting even a few years back that he has always known the endings of his main characters. Sure the books have become bigger, but GRRM has just split the original characters into more characters so that he will have more story to tell.

In the original outline Ned, Cat and Robb die to make the viewers think that no character is safe. They died in the books with Cat dying a different way. In the books, she goes with Robb, in the outline with Arya. Either way she dies.

In the original outline Jaime kills everyone in line to the throne and sits on it - who does that remind you of? It looks like GRRM split Jaime into Jaime and Cersei, made Cersei into the straight villain that Jaime is in the books and gave Jaime a 'redemption arc' with Brienne in the mix. I don't know what the endings of these characters are going to be. The outline does not make a mention of it.

In the original outline, Drogo kills Viserys, Dany kills Drogo , hatches her eggs and is getting ready to invade Westeros. Drogo and Viserys both die in the books. Joffrey dies in both versions. In the outline, Tyrion removes him from power and Jaime kills him. On the show, Tyrion is implicated and the Tyrells kill him.

Arya and Bran head North to Jon at the wall. They then go beyond the wall, where Bran and Arya fight off wights and Cat is killed. In GRRM's expanded version, Arya has now been split into Arya and Meera and Meera goes off with Bran beyond the wall and Arya goes to Braavos picking up new skills. Arya most likely heads back North to join Bran in fighting the Others.

In the outline Sansa betrays her family, regrets it, marries Joffrey, has a kid and is most probably killed along with her baby by Jaime on his way to the throne. We don't hear anymore about this character that GRRM created as a foil for Arya because 'Each of the contending families will learn it has a member of dubious loyalty in its midst'.

In the books, Sansa betrays her family, regrets it, is forced into marriage to Tyrion, has a beauty and beast romance with the Hound and political intrigue with new character LF. She then goes off to the Vale. She's the only character present in the original outline who was killed off by GRRM, but still sticking around in the books. Make of that what you will. If she lives, I think GRRM has to find a place for her in this new, expanded world along with all the new characters.

Bran is all about magic and goes beyond the wall and meets up with the inhuman Others and the Wildlings and Mance Rayder, the King beyond the wall. Some splitting up of the story here, with Bran meeting the Others and the 3ER and Jon meeting the Wildlings and Mance.

Tyrion is exiled in the outline, a kinslayer in the books - either way he goes away from KL. In the outline, he joins up with the Starks to bring down Jaime. In the books he joins up with Dany to bring down Cersei. Because Cersei is now the new Jaime in the books. Tyrion is split into Tyrion and Ramsay and Ramsay goes North, burns down Winterfell and has a feud with Jon over fake Arya.

In the outline, Tyrion and Jon develop a deadly rivalry over Arya since they both love her. In the books, this is most likely going to be a deadly rivalry over Dany. The word 'deadly' means, that one of them could die at the end of it.

Now, we come to the controversial point. In the outline, the romance is between Jon and Arya and in the books, it's most likely between Jon and Dany because that's where the show is heading and both Jon and Tyrion have changed trajectory to suit this new story. This is where GRRM stops his outline and we don't what happens. If Jon's ultimate end is death, LC at the wall, going away as a hermit etc. does it matter if he falls in love with Dany or Arya? He could fall in love with Dany, fight the Others and end up dying. He could fall in love with Arya, fight the Others and end up dying - same end.

I think these characters will all have the same ending that GRRM originally envisioned. But how they get to that ending is drastically different. New characters have now spawned off from existing characters - Cersei, Ramsay, Meera. There are side characters supporting the main character stories - Brienne, Davos, Theon etc. He included new kingdom characters - Martells, Tyrells. He included new game playing characters - LF and Varys and put Sansa in LF's story and Aegon in Varys'.

t's quite clear that GRRM is telling the story of Tyrion, Arya, Bran, Dany and Jon in this outline. It may have expanded to include new characters and new stories, but I think GRRM is clear on the endings for these characters and is trying to get there somehow, encountering problems like the loss of the 5 year gap on the way. These changes may change the journey and trajectory of the characters to their ending. I have always strongly suspected that the loss of the 5 year gap was what resulted in the change from Jon/Arya to Jon/Dany. As recently as book 3, Jon and Arya were comparing their love interests to each other. GGRRM is being crafty now, by denying the outline and including Sansa in his main character list. He is the guy made popular for killing off main characters and the last one died at the Red Wedding, two books ago. As he lays clear in his outline :

Quote

Some of the fatalities will include sympathetic viewpoint characters. I want the reader to feel that no one is ever completely safe, not even the characters who seem to be the heroes. The suspense always ratchets up a notch when you know that any character can die at any time.

It's been a while since any of the main characters died in the books - and I think I can say that Jon, Arya, Bran, Dany and Tyrion are safe till the very end and the last book. If GRRM is going to kill off a main character in the next book, where he has promised lots of deaths, then it's not going to be any of them.

I will give the show credit though. By making Sansa a more important character than Arya and Bran, they will be really shocking the audience if she gets killed off.

6 hours ago, stormborn said:

Well it is hinted in the show that Sansa will help to rebuild Winterfell

How has this been hinted on the show?

5 hours ago, Sunshinegal said:

Arya never wanted to marry a lord and wanted a life of adventure.

That's the show's version of Arya which keeps changing to suit the plot. Last season, Arya apparently always wanted to be a knight. In the books, Arya wanted to become a king's Councillor and build castles or become a High Septon. She wanted to build and have power of her own. In the books, she's intelligent and perceptive, good at mathematics and handling a household, learning several languages etc.

I don't see Arya wanting a life of adventure anymore even if she desired it as a child. Her experience away from home has been terrible - beaten, starved, worked to the bone. She's always wanted to go home and I think in the books, that's where she will end up - either in charge of it, or simply staying there with her family.

This idea that as soon as she gets to Winterfell, she will just pack her backs and leave on adventures makes no sense for the book character.

Edited February 2, 2018 by anamika

stormborn · February 2, 2018

1 hour ago, anamika said:

It's quite clear that GRRM is telling the story of Tyrion, Arya, Bran, Dany and Jon in this outline. It may have expanded to include new characters and new stories, but I think GRRM is clear on the endings for these characters and is trying to get there somehow, encountering problems like the loss of the 5 year gap on the way. These changes may change the journey and trajectory of the characters to their ending. I have always strongly suspected that the loss of the 5 year gap was what resulted in the change from Jon/Arya to Jon/Dany. As recently as book 3, Jon and Arya were comparing their love interests to each other. GRRM is being crafty now, by denying the outline and including Sansa in his main character list. He is the guy made popular for killing off main characters and the last one died at the Red Wedding, two books ago. As he lays clear in his outline :

Ehhh...this kinda brings me back to my original point of how the outline only seems to be deemed an unalterable text of sacrosanctness when it comes to downplaying Sansa's importance in the series and of course when it's used to imply her imminent death (even though we never see her actual death in the outline) that's been on the books now for the fandom for over 20 years and now on the show for 8 going on 9 years.

But basically, you've said here is George changed from his original plan to have Jon and Arya be in love with one another to Jon and Dany, the latter's story being the inverse of the former's in the outline. That seems like a pretty substantial deviation.

So if we're admitting that George is capable of shifting from the original outline in some aspects then why is the belief that he's truly grown attached to the character of Sansa and sees her as apart of the key six so objectionable?

And I'm sorry but suggesting that George is just pretending to like/care about the character of Sansa and her importance to the series seems more like biased projection to me than anything rooted in the basis of fact.

But I mean lol, I'm still stuck on how a 7 book saga that is as complex and as layered as ASOIAF could still be realistically sticking to the original outline endgame of what was meant to be a trilogy?

1 hour ago, anamika said:

In which case, GRRM is a bald-faced liar when he keeps insisting even a few years back that he has always known the ending, he knew the ending in 1991, he has always known where his characters end up.

Well, you seem to be suggesting that George is a liar since you say he's lying when he talks about Sansa being a main character now. So again, this is more conjecture on the part of both of us trying to prove a point by using George's own words that support what we're both saying (i.e. when you say he's staying true to the original ending and me when I say I believe George when he said that the outline for the most part was BS).

In any case, the only way either of us will know for sure is when the show is over and if the books ever get finished lol.

So I'll agree to disagree on this post as well.

anamika · February 2, 2018

1 hour ago, stormborn said:

Ehhh...this kinda brings me back to my original point of how the outline only seems to be deemed an unalterable text of sacrosanctness when it comes to downplaying Sansa's importance in the series and of course when it's used to imply her imminent death (even though we never see her actual death in the outline) that's been on the books now for the fandom for over 20 years and now on the show for 8 going on 9 years.

I just wrote an entire essay (lol!) on why the original outline is still relevant in terms of what ended up in the books and why it's possible that GRRM is still sticking to his ending. But we should ignore it because it downplays Sansa's importance and apparently Sansa's importance to the endgame of the series is fact and not a subjective opinion.

Sansa's nemesis is LF and LF is an important character involved in the downfall of the Starks. That makes her important in the narrative. That does not mean she cannot die. Important characters dying in the series is what made these books famous.

In the books, Bran goes beyond the wall, Jon is at the wall, Arya heads North after fleeing KL and takes a detour to Braavos, Dany has invaded Westeros, Tyrion wants to take down Cersei - these are elements in the outline that the books are following. Meanwhile we can see that Sansa's story is entirely new. That's not using the text to downplay Sansa's importance - that's using the text to show why she was not considered as a key character when GRRM initially came up with the story and the final ending.

Her death is implied, same as Joffrey.

Quote

Tyrion Lannister will continue to travel, to plot, and to play the game of thrones, finally removing his nephew Joffrey in disgust at the boy king's brutality. Jaime Lannister will follow Joffrey on the throne of the Seven Kingdoms, by the simple expedient of killing everyone ahead of him in the line of succession and blaming his brother Tyrion for the murders.

Did we see Joffrey's actual death? Jaime killing everyone ahead of him in the line of succession means Joffrey, his wife and their child are all killed off in the original outline. That's the last we see of Sansa. The only Starks GRRM is following after that in the outline is Arya, Bran and Jon - the 3 children of Winterfell. Rickon is non-existent and the show killing him off could imply he dies in the books as well.

1 hour ago, stormborn said:

But basically, you've said here is George changed from his original plan to have Jon and Arya be in love with one another to Jon and Dany, the latter's story being the inverse of the former's in the outline. That seems like a pretty substantial deviation.

So if we're admitting that George is capable of shifting from the original outline in some aspects then why is the belief that he's truly grown attached to the character of Sansa and sees her as apart of the key six so objectionable?

I feel like I am repeating myself here. George has always maintained that he only knows the endings of the main characters - where he wants the characters to end up. But how they get there is not set in stone. And I explained above why it does not matter who he falls in love with. We still don't know what happens after Dany invades Westeros and meets up with the gang up North because the outline stops before then.

My using the original outline was only to demonstrate that when GRRM originally came up with the story, the characters and their endings - this was what he intended for Sansa. That was her role in the story - to be the traitor who betrays her family and die. GRRM has obviously extended her story and maybe even come up with a new ending for her - we don't know what that is.

Or are you suggesting that GRRM felt so attached to Sansa's character that he gave her the original ending intended for one of the other Starks?

1 hour ago, stormborn said:

Well, you seem to be suggesting that George is a liar since you say he's lying when he talks about Sansa being a main character now. So again, this is more conjecture on the part of both of us trying to prove a point by using George's own words that support what we're both saying (i.e. when you say he's staying true to the original ending and me when I say I believe George when he said that the outline for the most part was BS).

In any case, the only way either of us will know for sure is when the show is over and if the books ever get finished lol.

So I'll agree to disagree on this post as well.

GRRM seems really pissed that the original outline was leaked - one con member mentioned that he was angry and flustered about it. He has stated way before the leak that he knew the endings when he wrote the first book and he was always planning on sticking to that ending. Imagine how it would be when that outline came out indicating who exactly he intended to live and die.

All he could do was damage control, deny the outline vehemently and when asked by Sansa fans, state that Sansa is also a main character. It could be that he likes her as a character. He has talked about how he likes all his characters - even the villains. He put off writing the red wedding because he found it hard to kill off Robb and Cat.

According to him everyone is an important character in the books - he kills them off to make it seem that main characters are not safe. We now know this is not true - there are some characters that are safe and some that are designated for death.

As I wrote above in great detail, he is still following the outline of his original outline but with a richer, more in depth story, more characters, a bigger world and expanded side stories - that's why the books stand uncompleted and will remain so.

Edited February 2, 2018 by anamika

Eyes High · February 2, 2018

9 hours ago, stormborn said:

But let's say you're right and George is sticking to the outline completely with no deviations or changes, then I guess we should be gearing up for a Jon and Arya hook up along with a jealous vengeful Tyrion?

Except that's not what I said. It's obvious that there are differences between the outline and ASOIAF, but 1) all the characters who died in the outline died in ASOIAF and 2) GRRM said for many years before the outline leaked that he has always had the same ending in mind since 1991. If Sansa wasn't a part of that ending in 1991, she won't be in 2019 when D&D deliver GRRM's ending. Even if he intended to spare Sansa, which I doubt, I'm sure he intended Winterfell to go to one of the Stark "main five" characters rather than the minor character she was in the outline.

So basically, in the show, Sansa currently occupies a position she cannot occupy if GRRM sticks to his original ending--and is highly unlikely to occupy in ASOIAF given that she was disinherited in the books and there are viable male heirs who won't conveniently cede to her claim--and with no plausible alternatives due to show changes (no SanSan, diminished connection with the Vale, marriage to Tyrion eliminated, etc.), that points to her death to make way for whoever (Bran or Arya, probably) is supposed to end up with Winterfell.

Maisie Williams seemed surprised at the ending. Maybe it's because she assumed Sansa would end up with Winterfell and Arya does instead.

4 hours ago, stormborn said:

And I'm sorry but suggesting that George is just pretending to like/care about the character of Sansa and her importance to the series seems more like biased projection to me than anything rooted in the basis of fact.

I mean, you keep saying that, but I could equally say that your reluctance to acknowledge the significance of Sansa's lack of relative importance and potential death in the outline, GRRM's continued insistence that he has always had the same ending in mind, and the implications of that for the endgame sounds more like biased projection to me than anything rooted in the basis of fact. I get that the implications of the outline for Sansa, coupled with GRRM always having had the same ending in mind, are grim, but that doesn't make them any less real.

3 hours ago, anamika said:

I just wrote an entire essay (lol!) on why the original outline is still relevant in terms of what ended up in the books and why it's possible that GRRM is still sticking to his ending. But we should ignore it because it downplays Sansa's importance and apparently Sansa's importance to the endgame of the series is fact and not a subjective opinion.

Heh. God forbid that Sansa be irrelevant to the endgame!

Quote

Sansa's nemesis is LF and LF is an important character involved in the downfall of the Starks. That makes her important in the narrative. That does not mean she cannot die. Important characters dying in the series is what made these books famous.

The only plot armour for Sansa in ASOIAF is Littlefinger's continued existence. Once Littlefinger dies, there's no more narrative need for Sansa, and he's already dead in the show. Even fans who believe that Sansa will survive the show have acknowledged that she has pretty much run out of plot. The only other unresolved threads are SanSan, Sansa's beef with Arya and Sansa's marriage to Tyrion, and the show has done away with or resolved those plot threads as well. It doesn't mean that she'll die, but it sure doesn't bode well for her chances.

Quote

GRRM seems really pissed that the original outline was leaked - one con member mentioned that he was angry and flustered about it. He has stated way before the leak that he knew the endings when he wrote the first book and he was always planning on sticking to that ending. Imagine how it would be when that outline came out indicating who exactly he intended to live and die.

All he could do was damage control, deny the outline vehemently and when asked by Sansa fans, state that Sansa is also a main character.

Yup. It's a transparent and desperate attempt to throw readers off the scent. I have no idea why anyone fell for it.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Eyes High

nikma · February 2, 2018

Sansa's plot for the most part is over, but that doesn't mean that she needs to die. Killing LF is not enough, if she is just going to die after that. Everything that she learned has to play some role, otherwise it was pointless. That's why I think Dany won't die as well, because what was the point of Meereen's arc then? And Jon won't die. He was learning to become a leader since S1 and now he will just die?

Out of Big 5, I think Bran could die, because he lost his personality, he won't be Lord of Winterfell and I don't see that person like him can live a normal life after the Great War. He is not a person any more. I think Arya could survive, since there is a chance for her to continue as a normal person after everything, but I really don't see that happening with Bran.

Edited February 2, 2018 by nikma

Eyes High · February 2, 2018

15 minutes ago, nikma said:

Sansa's plot for the most part is over, but that doesn't mean that she needs to die. Killing LF is not enough, if she is just going to die after that. Everything that she learned has to play some role, otherwise it was pointless.

Outfoxing and defeating Littlefinger, the real Big Bad of the books in terms of sheer misery, mayhem and destruction he has caused, is certainly enough for "some role."

Sansa is learning everything that she needs to: enough to foil and presumably put an end to Littlefinger. That's the only thing that she and she alone can pull off. Once he dies, though, she's no longer needed.

nikma · February 2, 2018

Sansa was not learning just so she can kill of LF. She will rule the North in the end. That's the point.

But these therioes that she will die are popular for years, and one thing is always sure, they are always wrong.

GrailKing · February 2, 2018

On 8/30/2017 at 8:03 PM, Moxie Cat said:

Good. When (not if) there are more gut-wrenching deaths, I'll be glad to know in advance and have time to process. Viserion was hard enough. I can't imagine potentially dealing with Jorah, Davos, more dragons, more wolves, or most of the central characters. It would guarantee many sleepless Sunday nights.

On the other hand: 18 months?!?! I will need a LOT of fan fic, show rewatching, and book rereading.

On 8/30/2017 at 11:08 PM, TarotQueen said:

I meant Bran has already shown how tactless he is in how he dealt with Sansa, not that he has already been that way regarding Jon's parentage. Yes, he's mostly saving the knowledge for Jon's ears first, but I can also see him finding it so important for Jon to know that he may not gaf who else hears too.

Anyway we will see in 2019!

I would not be surprised if he gave the news to Sansa and Arya already, he was holding the raven scroll Sansa had earlier with LF, and to be honest, Sansa and Arya and Bran will also have to deal with that info in keeping the North and Vale together.

They will also be important to keep Jon from imploding inside. He is half Stark.

Wouter · February 2, 2018

16 hours ago, stormborn said:

I always find it interesting that the original outline is declared as sacrosanct whenever someone wants to point to the likelihood of Sansa's death. Despite George saying that the outline was BS and his intentions for the characters have grown and evolved past that. The Sansa that exists in the outline is different to the one who exists in the books/show currently. So I don't think her fate in the outline is a great indicator of what her overall fate will be.

And also the belief that the 'Main Five' are all safe because George said that in the outline some odd 20 years ago is similarly naive.

No character at this point is untouchable.

I am excited to see that Sapochnik seems to be creating another masterpiece and I do wonder what episode he's filming right now. It doesn't make complete sense for the NK to burn the living seeing as he wants to recruit them for his army so maybe Cersei does send the Golden Company North and attacks Winterfell.

Or, as others have suggested, Dany and/or Jon (or even Bran much as has been speculated he could do with KL) burn it down with regular dragon fire in order to kill wights, once the castle has fallen. Which may mean that everyone in it has died or dies in the fire, but then there were supposed "leaks" about an escape through the crypt and tunnels.

I'm still very much surprised that Winterfell burns down - again. Strange that GRRM would repeat himself, especially the apparent sequence of loss and burning of the castle, followed by rebuilding by the enemy, followed by retaking it from the enemy, followed by building it up to withstand a long siege, only to lose it to fire again...

The death toll in the north must be horrendous, it Winterfell gets burned down either because the NK does it with Viserion or if because Dany's dragons do it to kill wights. Everybody is supposed to flee there, isn't that so?

As for the discussion about Sansa's fate, it seems we have the same discussion every year. If Sansa is in danger because Winterfell burns down, then Arya would probably be in much the same danger as there is a good chance she would be at Sansa's side, defending Winterfell and the northerners gathered there. The goes even more strongly for Bran himself, as he is a crippled non-combatant presently in Winterfell. We'll know more when more reports appear and/or leaks appear that gain credence as Lad's gradually did, last year.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Wouter

Eyes High · February 2, 2018

39 minutes ago, nikma said:

Sansa was not learning just so she can kill of LF. She will rule the North in the end. That's the point.

The outline and GRRM's repeated statements that he has never changed the ending suggest strongly that she won't. She wasn't going to in GRRM's original ending going off the outline, and that has never changed, since GRRM has always had the same ending in mind.

Even aside from the outline, GRRM was never going to give the North to a character he has admitted he only devised to generate tension within the Stark family. He probably already had who ended up with Winterfell in mind long before Sansa even occurred to him. Sansa was devised pretty much as an afterthought, and she's going to rule the North instead of Bran, Arya or Jon, who are his actual lead characters? That's not happening.

Quote

But these therioes that she will die are popular for years, and one thing is always sure, they are always wrong.

Because savvy and attentive book readers have long intuited what the leaked outline confirmed: Sansa has never been as important to GRRM as the main five, despite his protestations to the contrary, and she's expendable in a way that they aren't.

Again, she might live, but the outline puts paid to any notions of Kween Sansa. She won't rule the North, she won't be any sort of queen, and she'll be lucky if she survives at all.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Eyes High

GrailKing · February 2, 2018

On 31/08/2017 at 8:37 PM, oliverwendell said:

Also, do we know if either of these two leakers are still associated with the show for Season 8? (Because if they are, I imagine it's pretty likely they will leak again.)

To be honest, I liked the level of spoilage for Season 6. It gave me little nuggets to speculate about. But I didn't like knowing every beat of every episode for season 7, so if we get that level of detail again, I'll go 100% spoiler-free to avoid knowing.

You may already know this : Freakidoctor is still doing his thing, had one a couple of days back.

On 31/08/2017 at 9:02 PM, Eyes High said:

Not at all:

So in September-October of 2016, a poster by the name of /Awayforthelads (Lads) showed up on /Gameofthrones (a subreddit) and casually started spoiling Season 7. He made it to /Freefolk (the big spoiler-friendly GOT subreddit) and provided more detailed spoilers: Viserion's death, Jon/Dany romance, Arya killing LF, Cersei getting pregnant and miscarrying, wight hunt, etc. etc. /Freefolk is notoriously skeptical of self-proclaimed leakers, and they really hated a lot of his spoilers, so he was decried as a fraud. Then user /dragonmcx decided to get clever and faked a bunch of screenshots where Lads admitted to having made the whole thing up. /Dragonmcx eventually owned up to their deception, but by then Lads was long gone and had deleted his account. By the time /Awayforthelads disappeared, filming location spoilers were coming out that seemed to confirm Lads' information.

A Reddit poster called /Awayforthelads2 (Lads2) surfaced several months later claiming to be Lads. As proof, Lads2 offered four script pages: Arya massacring the Freys, Tyrion/Cersei at the dragonpit, Sansa and Arya executing LF, and Jon/Dany's conversation after the wight hunt. Lads2 provided other additional details that Lads had not: the Sandor/Brienne conversation about Arya, e.g. There was a lot of drama over whether Lads2 was telling the truth, whether he had faked the script pages, etc. etc. Eventually, Lads2 disappeared as well. When the Season 7 trailers came out, any doubt over Lads2 having the goods was erased.

As a result of Lads/Lads2, for folks in the know at /Freefolk, the entire season was spoiled ahead of time.

On to Frikidoctor:

In 2016, Frikidoctor started spoiling the first few episodes of Season 6 of GOT on Youtube before they aired in detail, information he got from a source. HBO got wise before too long, sniffed out his source and shut his videos down by 6x03 or so, at which point he stopped posting anything other than spoilers from other sources. However, in 2017, he seemed to have found another source who knew what would happen in the episodes before they aired, so he provided detailed S7 episode summaries before the episodes aired; he cited Lads' spoilers, but there was stuff in his summaries that Lads never mentioned. Because of Lads/Lads2's leaks, though, there wasn't much information that wasn't already known by the spoiler /Freefolk community. Unlike in Season 6, HBO ignored Frikidoctor and let him keep his videos up.

Bottom line: Lads/Lads2 spoiled Season 7 in detail several months in advance, thanks to having gotten his hands on the scripts. Frikidoctor spoils the episodes much closer to airing.

Frikidoctor will probably be back, but he didn't release his own spoilers until the season actually started. He posts a ton of "spoiler" videos in the off-season, but none of it's his own material; he's just reposting other people's spoilers. So I wouldn't wait for a spoiler dump from Frikidoctor until 2019.

As for Lads/Lads2? I'm guessing he's long gone. He seemed pretty unconcerned about the risk getting caught by HBO, though, so who knows?

Yeah the leaks, were mostly spot on, but the contexts weren't all there.

And Friki is back doing "predictions "

Wouter · February 2, 2018

7 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

You may already know this : Freakidoctor is still doing his thing, had one a couple of days back.

What did he leak or at least "predict"?

GrailKing · February 2, 2018

On 02/02/2018 at 7:45 PM, Wouter said:

What did he leak or at least "predict"?

I'm not sure it's in Portuguese, and last I saw no one translated in freefolk.

On 01/09/2017 at 4:25 PM, doram said:

Y'all need to go to church. ???

Or stay away from Freefolk. : )

On 02/09/2017 at 8:50 AM, ShellsandCheese said:

Death toll is going to be through the roof next year / 2019 but of the main / semi-main characters, I hope Ned’s remaining children live, along with Drogon, Ghost, Edd, Jon/Dany, Brienne, Davos, GW/Messendei, Brienne, Sam and co., Pod, Yara, Lyanna Mormont, and Tormund.

Sadly I think Edd will not make it, I give 50 /50 on my Starks, but if a Stark dies I think it be Bran, I go with Leaf: for man to survive magic needs to die, so WW,NK,Dragons, maybe all remaining wolves ( I don't consider them magical though ) everyone else 50 / 50 though I think GW dies, Cersei, Jamie, a lot.

nikma · February 2, 2018

53 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

The outline and GRRM's repeated statements that he has never changed the ending suggest strongly that she won't.

Is GRRM the showrunner of GoT? Who cares about his books or outline he wrote 25 years ago? We are talking about the show, I don't know if GRRM changed his plans, if he really has any idea about the ending, if he even remembers who Sansa was, but there is no way (judging by the way the show has been written) that Sansa won't end up as the ruler in the North. There is no way that Arya or Bran will be the rulers of the North in the show.

Edited February 2, 2018 by nikma

GrailKing · February 2, 2018

On 02/09/2017 at 6:00 PM, herbz said:

Sansa? Perhaps, but the execution was slightly iffy and I don't see her going South willingly again.)

What did you find iffy with the execution?

I only thought they didn't make it a more deadlier game for Sansa between her and Baleish, Sansa and Arya was close to what I imagined from the books ( though rushed ).

On 02/09/2017 at 6:12 PM, Eyes High said:

-although I doubt a female character like Sansa would have a different opinion of Dany if she found out about the Tarlys getting BBQed--

I don't know about this, they made a point of that scene of Sansa on the battlement, really going over in her head about executing someone .

They even commented on it on the BR contrasting Sansa and Dannarys.

Danni seems a bit more ridged then Sansa; I had no qualms on Randyl, but Dickon ! that's a different matter, young kid and proud and foolish.

Eyes High · February 2, 2018

1 hour ago, GrailKing said:

Sadly I think Edd will not make it, I give 50 /50 on my Starks, but if a Stark dies I think it be Bran, I go with Leaf: for man to survive magic needs to die, so WW,NK,Dragons, maybe all remaining wolves ( I don't consider them magical though ) everyone else 50 / 50 though I think GW dies, Cersei, Jamie, a lot.

The "magic needs to die" theory is popular, but the implications don't really work. If magic has to die, not only will Jon have to die (since he's only being kept alive by magical means), but also all the Stark kids will have to go, since they're all wargs (in the books, anyway). Is GRRM going to kill off all his lead characters except Tyrion (who may be magical himself if he turns out to be part Targ), including all the Stark kid lead characters plus Sansa, so that "magic can die"? I don't think so.

I think anyone who's a second-tier fighter character--Tormund, Jorah, Pod, Gendry, the Hound, Grey Worm, and Brienne--is on thin ice. I'm pretty confident Brienne will outlive Jaime, but it seems going off the S7 script outlines that the writers at one point planned killing off Brienne instead of Thoros during the wight hunt, so who knows? TV Brienne like TV Sansa has gone so far off-book that D&D are going to have to do some pretty radical course correction to get her back on track.

52 minutes ago, nikma said:

Is GRRM the showrunner of GoT? Who cares about his books or outline he wrote 25 years ago? We are talking about the show,

The show and the books will have the same ending.

Quote

but there is no way (judging by the way the show has been written) that Sansa won't end up as the ruler in the North. There is no way that Arya or Bran will be the rulers of the North in the show.

All the narrative hoops the show needed to jump through to make Sansa Lady of Winterfell--eliminating Robb's will (which disinherited Sansa), eliminating her AFFC/TWOW Vale storyline, killing off Rickon, having Bran forswear his claim for bullshit reasons (and everyone blithely accepting this reasoning), splitting KITN/ruler of Winterfell into separate titles, etc.--should give you a hint as to how far removed Sansa being Lady of Winterfell and running the North is from the reality of the books and GRRM's planned ending.

Sansa running the North as she did in S7 is about as likely to happen in the books as ASOIAF Sansa marrying Ramsay and getting raped. It's a temporary plot contrivance, not a hint as to her endgame. And again, the fact that D&D can cheerfully take a machete to Sansa's book plot in favour of their own Sansa story (which is really a mashup of ASOIAF minor characters' stories) without worrying about disrupting the narrative is a good indicator as to how important Sansa's arc and by extension Sansa really is to the overall story.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Eyes High

GrailKing · February 2, 2018

On 02/02/2018 at 9:13 PM, Eyes High said:

The "magic needs to die" theory is popular, but the implications don't really work. If magic has to die, not only will Jon have to die (since he's only being kept alive by magical means), but also all the Stark kids will have to go, since they're all wargs (in the books, anyway). Is GRRM going to kill off all his lead characters except Tyrion (who may be magical himself if he turns out to be part Targ), including all the Stark kid lead characters plus Sansa, so that "magic can die"? I don't think so.

I'm aware, except for what I think at the BBWB, Sansa hasn't shown any; but that's why I give all the Starks 50 / 50.

I'm not sure if Jon is totally magic or partial and religious.

Same for Bran is he magic or magic and religion?

I just think Bran is the one because of his tie in with history of the North, religion and magic.

On 02/09/2017 at 7:30 PM, Eyes High said:

Jon, Gendry, Tyrion, Sweetrobin, Jaime...pick one, really. I think some fans want Sansa as queen and don't very much care how it will happen or whether it makes any sense for the character.

You forgot ICE Queen : )

On 02/09/2017 at 6:27 PM, GraceK said:

I'm not a Sansa hater by any means, I actually really love her past season 1. I'm just wondering why would Sansa be endgame queen? I've seen that a lot in the fandom and it makes no sense . Queen in the North, definitely, that's something I can see her wanting or moving towards. But Queen of Westeros? Uh how?? Is it just because she might be the only main character left at the end? Even then, how does that make her Queen? I'm genuinely curious how people are coming to that conclusion.

On 02/09/2017 at 6:38 PM, herbz said:

I think most people who see it are working from the viewpoint that, if Jon and Dany are taken off the table, Sansa's the other major character left who's arc has revolved around leadership. I don't think it was done amazingly well, but I think what we were supposed to take from S7 with regards to her is that she's a capable politician and player of the game. If that were to happen she'd probably get chosen by a Great Council, I imagine? I don't see it happening personally, but can see why others would.

Between book and show, Sansa is shown as learning and capable, granted book version she's young, but if she surrounds herself with good and able people she can become a pretty good and pragmatic leader.

nikma · February 2, 2018

31 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

The show and the books will have the same ending.

The books won't have an ending. But what I wanted to say is that we shouldn't make predictions about S8 based on GRRM's outline which is 25 years old, while ignoring everything that happened in the past 7 seasons. It is clear from S7 that Bran or Arya won't rule the North in the end and they don't have any intentions to do so. I don't know if that's what GRRM told D&D or they decided to change that for the show. It doesn't matter. What matters is that in the show Sansa was set up as the endgame ruler of North.

glowbug · February 2, 2018

I wouldn't say Sansa ending up as Wardeness of the North or Lady of Winterfell is a foregone conclusion, nor would I say it's definitely not happening either. There is evidence in either direction. The original outline does not bode well for her survival but it's not proof either. The fact that Winterfell falls I think is another piece of evidence that makes it more likely that she won't survive. In the books, Sansa's arc seems to be setting her up to go home as well as taking down LF, and both of those things have already happened in the show. I lean towards her not leaving home again once she gets there because it makes more narrative sense but I wouldn't bet on it either. If she does die when Winterfell is attacked/destroyed I could see her getting a pretty emotional death scene. I think we'll probably also get some interesting parallels with Cersei and the battle of Blackwater Bay. Sansa, in the books, thinks about how she would have done things differently than Cersei so it would be great to see her act that out.

bubble sparkly · February 2, 2018

If Sansa’s book ending has to do with the Vale rather than the North (which has to be a possibility since she’s still there in the books with LF planning to marry her to the heir), then I don’t think it will take much to pivot her show ending there.

The nights of the Vale have loyalty to her on the show and follow her instructions for no real reason at all. So I could definitely see her ruling the Vale either through marriage (Robin, or they introduce a Harry the Heir equivalent in the last episode after Robin dies offscreen). Or D&D will do something stupid like have Royce just tell Sansa they took a vote and picked her as the new Lady / Warden.

GrailKing · February 2, 2018

On 9/4/2017 at 5:29 PM, AshleyN said:

On a more minor note, I wonder who's going to wield Heartsbane? There must have been a reason for Sam to take it. Of the major "warrior" characters Jon, Brienne, and Jaime already have Valyrian steel blades (as does Arya), and Beric's flaming sword is too cool to take away from him, which leaves...The Hound, Jorah, and Tormund? Bronn too I guess, but I can't really see it being him.

Jorah or the Hound, I go with Jorah as he and Sam have a history.

stormborn · February 2, 2018

7 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I mean, you keep saying that, but I could equally say that your reluctance to acknowledge the significance of Sansa's lack of relative importance and potential death in the outline, GRRM's continued insistence that he has always had the same ending in mind, and the implications of that for the endgame sounds more like biased projection to me than anything rooted in the basis of fact. I get that the implications of the outline for Sansa, coupled with GRRM always having had the same ending in mind, are grim, but that doesn't make them any less real.

Yes, you certainly could. And I wouldn't deny that Sansa is one of my favorite characters. Along with Arya, Bran and Jon but the difference is, I believe that the prospects for all of these POV characters could potentially be grim. I simply don't agree that the original outline endgame protects Bran anymore than it protects Jon or Arya or Sansa or Dany or Tyrion.

Sansa could certainly die and to be honest? As long as the death made sense for the character and honors her arc and journey I'd be fine with it because I have long since accepted that in this series anyone can go. And I think that's where we find ourselves talking at cross purposes. I'm just not as wholly convinced as you and anamika seem to be about the outline and it's prediction for these characters.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm not. I'm willing to watch it play out. But I would never presume to know for certain what George R.R. Martin of all people is thinking when it comes to this series lol.

4 hours ago, Wouter said:

Or, as others have suggested, Dany and/or Jon (or even Bran much as has been speculated he could do with KL) burn it down with regular dragon fire in order to kill wights, once the castle has fallen. Which may mean that everyone in it has died or dies in the fire, but then there were supposed "leaks" about an escape through the crypt and tunnels.

I think this might plausible as well. I can see them using Winterfell as a trap for the AOTD to stop their progression down south. The fire blaze of that size no matter what signals that something big goes down there this season; whether it be the NK, Cersei or the Starks and Co.

Fire and Ice indeed!

WindyNights · February 2, 2018

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

The show and the books will have the same ending.

They already talked about this and said they won't. Some of GRRM's ending will be in their ending but because of divergent plots, they can't get to his ending anymore. Maybe, it'll be similarish but it won't be the same.

SimoneS · February 3, 2018

1 hour ago, WindyNights said:

They already talked about this and said they won't. Some of GRRM's ending will be in their ending but because of divergent plots, they can't get to his ending anymore. Maybe, it'll be similarish but it won't be the same.

D&D never said this. They said that when they met with GRRM in 2013, he told them the endings for the main characters (apparently other characters like Shireen and Hodor) so D&D placed those characters in stories that would get them to that those endings even if their journeys to get there were different from the books and what GRRM intended to write. However, there are other characters that GRRM had not decided on their endings so those characters' endings and journeys to get there would be different on the show.

Edited February 3, 2018 by SimoneS

GrailKing · February 3, 2018

On 05/09/2017 at 1:10 AM, paigow said:

Did Sansa kill / release the dogs that ate Ramsey? Or did she re-train them? They might be handy against zombies...until they get killed and re-animated by the Night King....

Don't know, but I would assume ( yeah I know the definition of the word ) an experienced kennel master would tell her to put them down.

On 05/09/2017 at 3:10 AM, Brn2bwild said:

Shouldn't Dany, at least, fully warn her troops what the threat consists of and offer them the opportunity to leave?

Wasn't some of them at the dragon pit, hmmmm the news is already spread.

On 06/09/2017 at 3:41 PM, YaddaYadda said:

I just want Cersei to be screwed over. My most satisfying end to the show (specifically) will be Cersei's death.

Me too; I want Sansa and Arya do it as a team.

I'm sure she's dying not sure by whom, though I go with Jamie.

paigow · February 3, 2018

1 minute ago, GrailKing said:

I'm sure she's dying not sure by whom, though I go with Jamie.

He will need the Luck Of The Irish...Dude is riding alone to fight the Night King...If he survives that, the Mountain is still there...

GrailKing · February 3, 2018

1 minute ago, paigow said:

He will need the Luck Of The Irish...Dude is riding alone to fight the Night King...If he survives that, the Mountain is still there...

I think the Hound and Brienne take on the Mountain .

And from what I read we'll see more of KL.

Just another 12 to 14 months to know. : (

anamika · February 3, 2018

Here's a question for the folks who think that Sansa is going north and taking charge of WF in the books as well because she did it on the show. Why has the writing been so terrible in the North since Sansa got there. Why is there no logical, cohesive, organic way to get Sansa to be QITN/Lady of Winterfell on the show?

Let's take season 6. In season 6, why can't Sansa Stark rally the Northern lords to help her as daughter of Ned Stark? Okay, assume that David and Dan wanted the surprise of the Vale army coming to the rescue. But, as the show and Sansa repeatedly remind us, she won the battle of the bastards. Not Jon. She is the trueborn heir of Ned Stark, not Jon. So why go for the convoluted, senseless crowning of Jon as KITN if Jon has nothing to do with WF because he's a secret Targ?

The show has discarded Sansa's marriage to Tyrion - so why even take into consideration Robb's will. Just go ahead and make Sansa, Queen in the North.

Now, let's come to season 7. As queen, Sansa could send Jon as her emissary to meet with Dany and discuss an alliance. But then how could Jon give away the North if Sansa is queen you ask? Just have Sansa agreeing to it - after all they need help to defeat the WW. As a wise queen, surely Sansa will see that they need external help and allies? Political expert, master player, wise queen Sansa would then have to use her skills to convince the Lords that this is the right thing to do. If she is going to be a future ruler, give her a proper arc - not 2 contrived lines about grain and armor.

As for the LF plot, there would be no difference there. They could have Royce supporting LF and Sansa trying to win their support in her bid to oust him. As for Arya - if her end game story has nothing to do with Winterfell and is all about adventures and killing people - send her off with the brotherhood and the Hound. Hell she starts the season in the Riverlands. She could have traveled with them to the wall, meet up with Jon/Gendry at Eastwatch for a little reunion and have a little wight hunting fun. That would have been much better than the character assassinating shite they wrote for her last season.

Let's not even talk about Bran. What a waste.

Edited February 3, 2018 by anamika

screamin · February 3, 2018

2 hours ago, GrailKing said:

I think the Hound and Brienne take on the Mountain .

And from what I read we'll see more of KL.

Just another 12 to 14 months to know. : (

Definitely it will be the Hound that will do for the Mountain. It's part of the Hound's most fundamental character that he's got a debt to pay to his brother.

Which implies that both he and Jaime will survive battles and return to KL...call it cliched but I think Jaime is destined to do for Cersei the same way. They came into the world together, they'll leave it together...

SeanC · February 3, 2018

2 hours ago, anamika said:

Here's a question for the folks who think that Sansa is going north and taking charge of WF in the books as well because she did it on the show. Why has the writing been so terrible in the North since Sansa got there. Why is there no logical, cohesive, organic way to get Sansa to be QITN/Lady of Winterfell on the show?

You're proceeding on the assumption that the writing in the North is noticeably worse than the writing in all the other stories on the show, which I don't think it especially is. Moreover, it's false to take the stance that Sansa being in the North is so inherently impossible to make work that it therefore becomes evidence that nothing of the sort will happen; numerous fan rewrites have been proposed (I myself have done a few) to try to tighten up or improve on the various flaws in the plotting. The writers simply aren't that good at executing what would, in principle, be viable ideas. It's not hard to alter Season 6 to allow Jon and Sansa to both look competent (whereas in the actual Season 6 neither particularly does).

In filming news, Kit is apparently in New York at the moment, presumably to visit Rose (that's where The Good Fight films). Doesn't rule out him being in the Dubrovnik filming, by any means, at least not yet.

Eyes High · February 3, 2018

32 minutes ago, SeanC said:

In filming news, Kit is apparently in New York at the moment, presumably to visit Rose (that's where The Good Fight films). Doesn't rule out him being in the Dubrovnik filming, by any means, at least not yet.

Yes. Emilia's in Rome.

I've read that the Dubrovnik scene 1) will be filmed without extras, and 2) is one of the last scenes of the season. And by "I've read," I mean "I saw it in the comments in /Freefolk or WOTW and have no idea whether they got it from somewhere legit." So we'll see.

The big tell as to whether or not the Dubrovnik is from 8x06 is whether Sapochnik (8x03, 8x05) or David Nutter (8x01, 8x02, and 8x04) shows up to film it. If only D&D are on set to direct, there's your answer.

I don't know why all the market/harbour props are needed if there are no extras, since those sorts of props are suggestive of a bustling market/harbour, much like Arya's scenes in Braavos. The scene (shot in a very similar location in Dubrovnik, maybe even the same location, I'm not sure) where Cersei sees Jaime's boat approaching with Myrcella's body had no props on the shore.

One possibility is that Cersei is receiving Tycho Nestoris (who's going to appear in two episodes in Season 8) as he arrives (or, in the alternative, seeing him off as he goes). That would mean no Jon, of course. On the other hand, maybe it's Jon receiving or seeing off Tycho Nestoris, who knows? The red canopy being set up on the pier suggests that somebody important is there. Maybe all the stuff is cargo that someone is either taking with them or bringing to KL. If it is Tycho Nestoris, maybe the chests, hampers, etc. are meant to be loot to pay off the Iron Bank and get the crown out of hock once and for all.

Assuming there are filming pics--and given the location, I'm not sure whether that can be avoided--it will be our first glimpse of S8 costumes. Exciting! Even more exciting, of course, is the prospect of a scene from 8x06 which spoils who survives what I assume will be the final battles in 8x05.

In other news, Nathalie Emmanuel (Missandei) hasn't been seen in Belfast in a very long time. One of the GOT vloggers has claimed that she has already wrapped for the season. RIP Missandei?

Edited February 3, 2018 by Eyes High

SeanC · February 3, 2018

9 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

In other news, Nathalie Emmanuel (Missandei) hasn't been seen in Belfast in a very long time. One of the GOT vloggers has claimed that she has already wrapped for the season. RIP Missandei?

She was doing an independent film in the US late last year, if I recall correctly.

Eyes High · February 3, 2018

2 minutes ago, SeanC said:

She was doing an independent film in the US late last year, if I recall correctly.

On /Freefolk, someone pointed out that Missandei's bit in Season 7 about how if she ever tapped out, Dany would give her a ship and wish her good fortune might be foreshadowing for Missandei deciding to peace out and head back to Naath, probably after Grey Worm dies (I assume). So it could be that Missandei just leaves rather than dies.

GrailKing · February 3, 2018

On 9/24/2017 at 12:57 PM, SimoneS said:

I am conflicted about Varys. I have always thought that if anyone in her inner circle betrays Dany, it would be him, but I don't see his motivation.

I think Tyrion will betray Danny for love of his family and future nice or nephew, not for Cersei.

Another thing I was hoping for is Sansa finding Cersei's spy, like she figured out in book Cobray working for LF, and possibly double crossing LF.

OhOkayWhat · February 3, 2018

"Same ending" as said by GRRM/D&D, maybe doesn't mean 100% (or 99%) of similarity. Maybe we are talking about only the 85% . And within that other 15%, dozen of things that people judge "important" can change. A lot.

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

The writers simply aren't that good at executing what would, in principle, be viable ideas. It's not hard to alter Season 6 to allow Jon and Sansa to both look competent (whereas in the actual Season 6 neither particularly does).

Why the characters needs to be competent to be it good writing? What if they aren't supposed to be competent?

3 hours ago, anamika said:

As for Arya - if her end game story has nothing to do with Winterfell and is all about adventures and killing people - send her off with the brotherhood and the Hound. Hell she starts the season in the Riverlands. She could have traveled with them to the wall, meet up with Jon/Gendry at Eastwatch for a little reunion and have a little wight hunting fun.

It's not about that, in my opinion, but even if that is the case, why write that in season 7 if they still have season 8?

Edited February 3, 2018 by OhOkayWhat

anamika · February 3, 2018

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

You're proceeding on the assumption that the writing in the North is noticeably worse than the writing in all the other stories on the show, which I don't think it especially is. Moreover, it's false to take the stance that Sansa being in the North is so inherently impossible to make work that it therefore becomes evidence that nothing of the sort will happen; numerous fan rewrites have been proposed (I myself have done a few) to try to tighten up or improve on the various flaws in the plotting. The writers simply aren't that good at executing what would, in principle, be viable ideas.

The writing for the North IS noticeably worse than the writing in all the other stories on the show. The Winterfell plot last season was universally panned as some of the worst writing on the show. There's no logic at all there. Why did Sansa not tell Jon about the Vale army? Why did the Lords make Jon king? What the hell was the Sansa-Arya-LF plot last season? Who wrote the letter to Sansa and asked her to come to the Dragon pit? Why was Royce not bothered about Sansa's lies to the Vale Lords? If the KITN marries and have kids and the Lady of Winterfell has kids who inherits WF? What is Jon's seat in the North? If all this is not important, why is it necessary to make Jon king?

At least with the other plots we can ask a question and get an answer. With the North plot there are no answers, just terrible writing and the audience left guessing what happened and why it happened that way.

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

It's not hard to alter Season 6 to allow Jon and Sansa to both look competent (whereas in the actual Season 6 neither particularly does)

According to the show, Sansa IS competant. The show's thesis in season 6 was that Jon fails to heed Sansa's advice and falls for Ramsay's mind games. Sansa then cleverly brings the army of the Vale and wins the BOTB. Jon thanks her for this and Sansa herself takes credit for it. It therefore follows from here that as the trueborn heir of Ned Stark and as the person responsible for the victory of the Starks, Sansa is made Queen in the North. Why is it even necessary for the splitting of all the KITN/Lady of Winterfell stuff if the show just combines all that and makes Sansa the ruler straight away - why even make Jon King in a way that makes absolutely no sense on the show?

If the show is cutting corners and eliminated Sansa's vale story because the only thing that matters is Sansa killing LF, why even bother with the KITN story if they can just fast forward to Sansa ending up ruling the North? I mean, Jon was KITN in the North was just 2 episodes and then he was off - he could have gone as Sansa's emissary with permission to make any deal necessary.

In a show that cuts corners and takes short cuts, I don't understand the convoluted writing for Sansa if GRRM has a path laid out for how Sansa goes North and ends up in charge.

Edited February 3, 2018 by anamika

GrailKing · February 3, 2018

On 09/12/2017 at 8:17 PM, Eyes High said:

Going off Seasons 6 and 7, I'm guessing it will be more of Sansa shitting all over Jon's plans.

She didn't shit on his plans, she gave decent advice and she was proven correct on them. Davos gave him advice and he ignored it and almost die.

On 10/12/2017 at 12:03 AM, bubble sparkly said:

Yeah, D&D saying Dany has no compassion or mercy doesn't really match up to Jon saying she has a good heart and deciding to bend the knee because she deserves it, and the North will come to see her for what she is.

Jon doesn't know what happened at TFOF, and I don't think they're talking compassion of the small folk, but people who go against her as the Tarlys or the slaver who killed a Master. Danny won't show emotion in a war type scenario, she's been hardened, just like Arya.

On 13/12/2017 at 9:41 PM, Wouter said:

As for the supposed leak, Winterfell falling yet survivors escaping seems very unlikely to me. I think it will hold, and if it does fall there really should be no survivors.

There still the crypts and secret passages and tunnels, so surviving is possible. ( still 5 more pages before I get to recent leaks ) : )

On 14/12/2017 at 12:58 AM, screamin said:

I've always thought that LF's planned murder of Sweetrobin will be the trigger that will finally move Sansa to turn against him...it would be hilarious if sickly Sweetrobin survived the end of the story.

I still think Robyn lives, he's thriving under Sansa's care and she has his ear, but I can also see if LF is successful in killing him it will trigger Sansa's rage and she has him killed.

Happy Harpy · February 3, 2018

I wonder if they put Littlefinger's head on a pike, at Winterfell. I'd like a Vir Cotto moment for Varys.

And I find myself wondering which showdowns won't happen, against expectations.

LF's death is fortunate for the Stark/Targaryen alliance. Varys considered LF as the most dangerous man in the Seven Kingdoms, I don't think he'd have trusted anyone who kept him close and it wouldn't have helped, to say the least. Varys should be in favor of a Jon/Dany alliance, since he fears a Mad King redux whereas Jon advised her to not burn castles and she listened. I feel this is where Tyrion's ambivalent feelings about Jon/Dany could play and they could be dealt with rather fast. The Stark (Stark/Snow) conflict that was touted at the end of S6 didn't end with a betrayal and the full blown conflict didn't even happen directly between those Starks. Could be something similar.

Tyrion willing to spare Cersei's life for the sake of her future child, is possible. But he saw the wight, he knows the NK took down a dragon, people he knows and trusts told him what is coming for them. If Jaime can see that the child has no chance in case of a NK's victory, Tyrion has to know it. If he wants to save Cersei's child, it makes no sense that he betrays Jon/Dany because no one else has a chance at beating the NK.

Moreover, if Jaime makes it to Winterfell, they'll have to know that Cersei betrayed (I'll call BS if they don't use Bran to "scan" him and verify his word) so Tyrion would be a fool to trust her in any way or shape. BTW, I also wonder if Jaime thinks that Cersei lied to him about the pregnancy, after all? "I don't believe you" (ironically, those are the last words Tywin said to Cersei). A lot here depends on how long the writers will make Jaime's trip last, of course.

I thought the Sansa/Arya conflict was organic. It rooted in their characters' tempers and history. I never thought they'd have a nice reunion, they clashed as kids, they had to confront their differences as adults. Now, the execution...Unfortunately, the mistake the show made in S1, erasing Sansa's "original sin" of spilling Ned's plan to Cersei, emptied it of a lot of its essence. If Arya had been allowed to resent Sansa for a criminal mistake the latter made on her own free will, this storyline would have had a different echo and the parallel between Sansa definitely dropping her self-serving ambitions (embodied by LF) and Arya definitely embracing forgiveness for someone who wronged her loved ones (the Hound was a first step), would have been much clearer. Imho.

It just made me think that maybe, this season, they'll have Sansa open Tyrion's eyes about how Cersei is cunning and unreliable. LOL. About this, TV rule number 1: When you want the audience to forget about a fact, you act as if it never existed. I wouldn't discard the Tyrion/Sansa marriage as an option, simply because they mentioned it every season.

Edited February 3, 2018 by Happy Harpy

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