Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[SeanC]

7 hours ago, CherithCutestory said:

And going back to another discussion, I do think Winterfell will fall. But they'll be able to retreat into the crypts. WF will have to be rebuilt along with everything else. The Starks began as builders not just warriors. So, that will be OK.

This is something that I've seen not-infrequent speculation about, but I really don't get the basis for it.  The crypts on the show are represented by that one room, which is a large-ish place, but not enough to hold huge numbers of people (let alone the supplies to feed them), and in any event, they're Winterfell's basement.  If the castle falls, the crypts fall.

Moreover, on a production level, the crypts are filmed at Shane's Castle, and while the show did film there this year, it wasn't for very long, and only with (presumably) Kit and Maisie.

[anamika]

14 hours ago, SeanC said:

The point would be that Winterfell is her home.  Where else would she go?  The Clegane family's historic small keep in the Westerlands that not even the Hound himself has ever spoken of any particular attachment to?  Sansa's arc has repeatedly featured her quite literally walking in her parents' footsteps, and Wintefell and the Stark identity looms large throughout.  She's going back there to stay, one way or another.

 

 

I don't think you are getting my point. My argument is that based on the books, I don't see Sansa ending up being in charge of Winterfell. I could see her being there in the books, if Bran/Rickon end up in charge and she is helping them. But the show has decisively removed any contenders to WF and stressed that Sansa is in charge and the head of Winterfell. I don't see this as the book ending. Ergo, I see two possible endings for Sansa if the show is going to align with the book endings next season.

  -  She dies.

 -   She goes away with the hound for her happy ending.

My theory has always been that Sansa never goes North again in the books. Her story is in the south. Possibly with connections to the fAegon/Varys story.  If she dies in the books, she does so taking down LF. LF is a master player of the game and is not going to go down easily. Or the Hound rescues her. Maybe GRRM has not decided on this and that's why he's undecided on the Hound.

If she ends the story in charge of WF then I agree with you. There would be no issue with her marrying the hound and staying there with her litter of red haired Starks. No more horsey faced, grey eyed, plain looking Starks! But what a bitter ending that would be for the North - all the Starks most qualified to run WF dead or gone and LF protégé Sansa frigging Stark who betrayed her family to become queen is now head of house Stark. Poor Ned - that's basically an end to his legacy in the North.

And if that's the end for the North, then I want the sweetest, diabetes inducing ending for Jon and Dany, with them being happily married, lots of children, Drogon and Ghost frolicking in the spring, red door and lemon trees - the whole shebang!

Edited January 30, 2018 by anamika

[SeanC]

6 hours ago, anamika said:

-   She goes away with the hound for her happy ending.

There’s no way that happens in the show.  They’ve made hay of the whole “women becoming powerful and independent” for years (and in Sansa’s case, have relied on it as a shield regarding things like the rape controversy).  She’s not going to drop all of that needlessly to run off with the Hound (which would be narratively unnecessary, in any event).

Like, you could certainly make the argument that Book!Sansa doesn’t care about power and so wouldn’t have an issue with not being in charge (I think much the same; note that this is distinct from leaving home, which she wouldn’t do), but TV!Sansa’s characterization wholly lacks that.  She blatantly wants to be calling the shots.

It’s similar to the book speculation about Dany declining the throne to go off and live in her fabled red-doored house — which, even though I never thought that likely about the books anyway, is flatly impossible in the show, which has never once had her mention the place or express any desire or nostalgia whatever for an ordinary life.

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My theory has always been that Sansa never goes North again in the books. Her story is in the south. 

The return to Winterfell and her roots has been the driving desire of Sansa’s story since the end of AGOT.  She’s absolutely going north again, one way or another.  So much of what has been set up for her can only pay off there.

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If she ends the story in charge of WF then I agree with you. There would be no issue with her marrying the hound and staying there with her litter of red haired Starks. No more horsey faced, grey eyed, plain looking Starks! But what a bitter ending that would be for the North - all the Starks most qualified to run WF dead or gone and LF protégé Sansa frigging Stark who betrayed her family to become queen is now head of house Stark. Poor Ned - that's basically an end to his legacy in the North.

You almost seem to come at this from the perspective that Sansa is not a real Stark or Northerner, even to the point of fixating on her looks.  Even setting aside that Sansa is 50% Ned’s DNA and any children could as easily resemble their dad besides (and, as SanSan proponents have regularly noted, the Hound has grey eyes and dark hair), Sansa’s story is all about embracing the legacy of her parents.  She’s repeatedly walking in their literal footsteps, and will (or has, in the show) avenge them on the man who deceived Ned and Catelyn and betrayed Ned to his death.  Sansa is Ned’s legacy every bit as much as his other children.  She’s learning Littlefinger’s game, but she won’t be like him in the end; that’s why she’ll defeat him.

Edited January 30, 2018 by SeanC

[WindyNights]

On 1/28/2018 at 12:39 AM, anamika said:

And I think they can create it in 5 minutes in the first episode.  This is the show we are talking about. Things are moving at breakneck speed. We had that one line from the Hound last season about hating gingers or some such nonsense. That's the Hound's shtick - telling the opposite of what he actually means.

Like LF, the Hound is an important character in Sansa's story in the books. If these characters meet, the show cannot ignore that in the books Sansa is imagining kisses with him.

I think I am one of the rare posters here or indeed anywhere in fandom who is pretty sure that Sansa is not going to end up in charge of Winterfell. Going off the books, she is the person least qualified to do so, when Jon, Arya and Bran are hanging around. Even if Rickon is killed off and Bran gives up his prince of WF title, Arya is the only person (along with Jon) who thinks like Ned, the only Stark who has the Stark look and is a stereotypical female leader of the North like the Mormont girls, Wylla Manderly, Alys Karstark etc. I think that If the show sticks with GRRM's ending, Arya would be the person who continues the Ned/Stark legacy in the North. 

If this is the case and Arya/Bran/Rickon end up in charge of WF in the books, what would Sansa be doing?  Either she dies taking down LF or she ends up with the Hound. Possibly Lady of the Vale if she does marry Harry the Heir. But the show seems to have reduced the Vale to just Royce and his army.  I think her marriage with Tyrion is a done deal as the show seems to not give it any importance, Tyrion made it a point to stress that their marriage was a sham marriage and he seems to be having feelings for Dany.  

That leaves the Hound. Why did GRRM even write their relationship if it is not even addressed anymore? And considering that they will be meeting next season, surely we can assume that the show will address it? 

Pretty much. Cersei needs something to do. I guess she sends her men to attack WF while Dany/Jon are elsewhere attacking WW.

 

Arya thinks more like Ned? Wut. 

Arya has a kill list, is pseudo-psychopatic and has a lust for revenge.

Like read Mercy. Arya Stark is not suited to be any type of politician. 

Edited January 30, 2018 by WindyNights

[WindyNights]

5 hours ago, anamika said:

I don't think you are getting my point. My argument is that based on the books, I don't see Sansa ending up being in charge of Winterfell. I could see her being there in the books, if Bran/Rickon end up in charge and she is helping them. But the show has decisively removed any contenders to WF and stressed that Sansa is in charge and the head of Winterfell. I don't see this as the book ending. Ergo, I see two possible endings for Sansa if the show is going to align with the book endings next season.

  -  She dies.

 -   She goes away with the hound for her happy ending.

My theory has always been that Sansa never goes North again in the books. Her story is in the south. Possibly with connections to the fAegon/Varys story.  If she dies in the books, she does so taking down LF. LF is a master player of the game and is not going to go down easily. Or the Hound rescues her. Maybe GRRM has not decided on this and that's why he's undecided on the Hound.

If she ends the story in charge of WF then I agree with you. There would be no issue with her marrying the hound and staying there with her litter of red haired Starks. No more horsey faced, grey eyed, plain looking Starks! But what a bitter ending that would be for the North - all the Starks most qualified to run WF dead or gone and LF protégé Sansa frigging Stark who betrayed her family to become queen is now head of house Stark. Poor Ned - that's basically an end to his legacy in the North.

And if that's the end for the North, then I want the sweetest, diabetes inducing ending for Jon and Dany, with them being happily married, lots of children, Drogon and Ghost frolicking in the spring, red door and lemon trees - the whole shebang!

That's kind of fucked up to think of Sansa Stark as more of Littlefinger's legacy than Ned Stark's legacy.

The point of her story atm is the reclamation of her identity as Sansa Stark, daughter of Ned Stark. Sure, she'll pick up some things from Littlefinger just like Arya picked up some things from the Kindly Man and Yoren and just like Jon picked up some things from Jeor Mormont and Qhorin Half-Hand.

Besides, there's nothing that says that Sansa can't marry a Karstark or some other Northerner with gray hair and long faces or perhaps a Waynwood with those features.

[Sunshinegal]

I don't know why people are hung up about the Stark look with Sansa.  Or she is not a northerners because of her looks.  In the books only Arya and Jon had the Stark look.  Robb, Bran and Rickon look like Catelyn.  In the line of succession, they would have precedence.  Are Robb, Bran and Rickon not Northerners.  I don't here any criticism about them not being Northerners because of their appearance.

[anamika]

12 hours ago, SeanC said:

There’s no way that happens in the show.  They’ve made hay of the whole “women becoming powerful and independent” for years (and in Sansa’s case, have relied on it as a shield regarding things like the rape controversy).  She’s not going to drop all of that needlessly to run off with the Hound (which would be narratively unnecessary, in any event).

Like, you could certainly make the argument that Book!Sansa doesn’t care about power and so wouldn’t have an issue with not being in charge (I think much the same; note that this is distinct from leaving home, which she wouldn’t do), but TV!Sansa’s characterization wholly lacks that.  She blatantly wants to be calling the shots.

It’s similar to the book speculation about Dany declining the throne to go off and live in her fabled red-doored house — which, even though I never thought that likely about the books anyway, is flatly impossible in the show, which has never once had her mention the place or express any desire or nostalgia whatever for an ordinary life.

 

 

I am not giving much credence to what the show has put out as Sansa's story from season 5 onwards. It's a mish mash of the stories of various other characters and the setting has been changed to suit a terribly written plot around Sansa - none of which would make sense in the books.  There's no rhyme or reason to much of what she does and the only way they can make her competent on the show is by giving her two lines of dialogue about grain and armor and dumbing down Jon and Arya.

I agree that she came off as power hungry last season going so far as to contemplate executing Arya and deposing Jon to make herself Queen - Hence her going off with the Hound would not make sense in this scenario. I would also not put it past David and Dan to do a complete 180 and change the character to suit the book endings. 

12 hours ago, SeanC said:

The return to Winterfell and her roots has been the driving desire of Sansa’s story since the end of AGOT.  She’s absolutely going north again, one way or another.  So much of what has been set up for her can only pay off there.

 

This seems to assume that whatever a character wants will happen. Sansa betrays her family, fucks it up for Arya, Jeyne and Ned and gets stuck in KL herself. She then realizes the importance of family and home, misses it all and wants to go back desperately. And therefore it should happen.

What has been set up for her to have pay off in the North? LF is busy making plans for her, but up North things are proceeding just fine without her. The mountain clans are marching for Arya, the Manderlys are making a play for Rickon, Robb's will is hanging around somewhere and if Bran comes back south it's not going to be as some automaton.  Robb also makes it a point to make sure that Sansa does not inherit WF and her marriage to Tyrion is still a thing in the books and it's going to be a while for that to be annulled.

12 hours ago, SeanC said:

You almost seem to come at this from the perspective that Sansa is not a real Stark or Northerner, even to the point of fixating on her looks.  Even setting aside that Sansa is 50% Ned’s DNA and any children could as easily resemble their dad besides (and, as SanSan proponents have regularly noted, the Hound has grey eyes and dark hair), Sansa’s story is all about embracing the legacy of her parents.  She’s repeatedly walking in their literal footsteps, and will (or has, in the show) avenge them on the man who deceived Ned and Catelyn and betrayed Ned to his death.  Sansa is Ned’s legacy every bit as much as his other children.  She’s learning Littlefinger’s game, but she won’t be like him in the end; that’s why she’ll defeat him.

 

So looks are not important in GRRM's world? Where GRRM often stresses on how Jon and Arya are the only two Starks to actually look like Starks? Where Ned figures out the entire adultery/incest plot in KL based on looks? Where the secret of Jon's birth lies in his appearance?  Where each house is distinctive based on looks? We are not supposed to give any importance or credence at all to the fact Arya is the only Stark to actually look like a Stark?

How is Sansa embracing the legacy of her parents in five books? Please do let me know. Is she embracing Ned's legacy when she threatens the Maester into giving her little cousin a dangerous dose of sweetsleep because LF's plans are what is more important? Does that embody the Tully motto of 'family, duty, honor'? How is she repeatedly walking in their literal footsteps?! I agree that she will avenge them and make right her own betrayal of her family by killing LF. But that does not make her a mini Ned or mini Catelyn. Ned is more honorable - he would never willingly hurt a child unlike Sansa's slow poisoning of her cousin and Catelyn was much smarter than Sansa ever was.

The Sansa who comes away from LF's tutelage would think that Ned is stupid and honorable. As she does on the show. You talk so much about season 7 Sansa as evidence that she is not going anywhere, and yet we have a show Sansa who refuses Ned's legacy and asks Jon to not be like Ned - the show makes it a point that Jon thinks and acts like Ned - with his constant references to Ned's teachings - and Sansa calls that stupid. The show deliberately contrasts the two of them on this. We have scenes where Jon and Arya are spending some alone time with Ned in the crypts. Did we have a similar scene with Sansa? Sansa is surrounded by disloyal weather vane lords on the show, folks who would switch sides in a moment. Was that how it was for Ned in the North? Classist Sansa is now going to mingle with the small folk like Ned and Arya? 

The season 7 script constantly mentions how Sansa is disappointed that Bran is back, jealous that Brienne bonds with Arya and tempted by power, wanting to rule instead of Jon. Her disdain for half brother Jon mirrors that of Catelyn, but Cat would have been disappointed in the way she felt about her siblings.

In the books, Jon, Arya and Bran constantly think of Ned and the things he said to them - Arya most often. I can't recollect Sansa doing the same - she often thinks of Ned in terms of his interaction with Arya. About how Ned never scolded Arya for her being among the WF smallfolk or laughed off her dirty appearance. That's why I think Sansa in charge would be an end to Ned's legacy. She thinks too differently. And she would think even more differently at the end of the books, after having mentors like LF. Sansa fans can't have it both ways - either she is a manipulative game player like LF which would lead to her doing dubious things or she is not a gameplayer and becomes honorable Ned in which case her entire story arc was a waste of time. She can't be both.

And for all the comments about how the North also needs LF style politics, we currently have intrigue and political backstabbing going on the North. And they are handling it just fine without Sansa Stark. The Northerners are taking care of the traitorous Boltons while Jon cleverly solves the Karstark problem at the Wall. Arya is learning deceptiveness and perceptiveness, how to tell lies, how to control emotions, how to detect lies from the FM.

Finally, I would just like to add that Sansa and Ned are nothing alike. For Ned and even more so for Catelyn - family is everything. Ned would jump off a cliff before he betrayed his family. He sacrificed the one thing he valued most - his honor - to keep his sister's son alive. He once again sacrificed his honor and ended up dying to save his daughter's life. Sansa had no hesitation throwing her family under the bus for personal gain - Catelyn would have been horrified if she knew what Sansa had done. She released a valuable prisoner and fucked up her son's campaign to save her daughters. On the show, Catelyn would have been like Jon, galloping forward on her horse to save Rickon. Not be cold and calculating like Sansa, giving up on Rickon as dead.  Ned and Sansa both made mistakes in KL. But the Ned continues to be appreciated because he was stupid for selfless reasons - to save the Lannister children. Sansa was stupid for selfish reasons.

The Tully looking Sansa Stark who was educated by Septa Mordane while she was in WF and then spend the next 5 books in the south under the tutelage of Cersei (Who she supposedly learned a lot from in the show) and LF can very well end up in charge of Winterfell at the end of next season. IMO that's an end to Ned Stark's legacy. The North will be ruled differently under her - because she was never around Ned when he made day to day decisions in the running of WF and the North.  I don't think that's the ending that GRRM came up with in the nineties. The ending that he supposedly plans to stick with. The ending that the show is supposedly planning to stick with.

And if she's not going off with the Hound, then she's dying.

Edited January 31, 2018 by anamika

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

This seems to assume that whatever a character wants will happen. Sansa betrays her family, fucks it up for Arya, Jeyne and Ned and gets stuck in KL herself. She then realizes the importance of family and home, misses it all and wants to go back desperately. And therefore it should happen.

That it's something she thinks about constantly is one element of it, but not the only one, by any means.  The broad thrust of her arc has been around her family and her parents' legacy, and she has unfinished character business with other members of her family.

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How is Sansa embracing the legacy of her parents in five books?

Consciously, her holding onto and asserting the relationship as much as she can, in circumstances where she is repeatedly forced to deny her family to survive.  She draws strength from being "the blood of Winterfell".  Not consciously, all the other parallels and motifs GRRM puts in her story.

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How is she repeatedly walking in their literal footsteps?!

Most literally, the two different sequences where GRRM shows her using avenues of transportation that we've only ever seen her parents use in the novels.  The stone ladder that she uses to escape the Red Keep is the same one that Ned used to leave the Red Keep to meet Catelyn in AGOT, and Sansa's descent from the Eyrie in AFFC contrasts with Catelyn's ascent to it in AGOT.  The former is probably more a continuity nod, but the latter is very explicitly a parallel and contrast; GRRM pointedly gives mother and daughter each a moment crossing a particular perilous stone saddle.  Catelyn is petrified, falters, and has to be guided across by Mya Stone; Sansa summons her courage and guides Robert Arryn across herself.  Catelyn's reaction is entirely understandable (Sansa herself notes it scared her on the ascent), but on a literary level it's a pretty obvious bit of business.

More generally, Sansa's whole arc is bounded up in her parents' legacy.  Much of that is about Littlefinger, of course, the man who betrayed her father and was obsessed with her mother, and has kind of transferred both of those things onto her in different ways.  The whole Eyrie setup is kind of a dark version of her father's youth there as well, except she gets Littlefinger instead of Jon Arryn.  And so on.

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Ned is more honorable - he would never willingly hurt a child unlike Sansa's slow poisoning of her cousin and Catelyn was much smarter than Sansa ever was.

Sansa's not "willingly hurting" Robert (she is, as of her most recent chapter, still hoping he lives to adulthood), though she is definitely meant to be showing signs of influence by Littlefinger, which is part of the danger of her story.  As to the latter, hardly surprising that an adult woman was smarter than an 11/12-year-old.  As noted above, you can read Sansa's final AFFC chapter as foreshadowing Sansa being more formidable than even her mother as she comes into adulthood.  Which, if she defeats Littlefinger, she certainly will be.

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The Sansa who comes away from LF's tutelage would think that Ned is stupid and honorable. As she does on the show. You talk so much about season 7 Sansa as evidence that she is not going anywhere, and yet we have a show Sansa who refuses Ned's legacy and asks Jon to not be like Ned - the show makes it a point that Jon thinks and acts like Ned - with his constant references to Ned's teachings - and Sansa calls that stupid. The show deliberately contrasts the two of them on this. We have scenes where Jon and Arya are spending some alone time with Ned in the crypts. Did we have a similar scene with Sansa?

As to the books, presuming this ends with Sansa rejecting Littlefinger and fully embracing her parents, you cannot say what exactly she'll come away thinking about him.  TV!Sansa has not "refused" Ned's legacy.  She said that she loved and missed him (and Robb), but that he made mistakes that they needed to learn from, which seems to be the show's position (the show is hopelessly confused on what it thinks about Ned, incidentally, reflecting the writers' often inconsistent cynicism).

And, er, yes, we did.  Remember Sansa and Arya's reunion literally in front of Ned's statue?  She also went down there in Season 5 by herself.  And then there was the girls' final scene in Season 7, quoting Ned at each other.

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Sansa is surrounded by disloyal weather vane lords on the show, folks who would switch sides in a moment. Was that how it was for Ned in the North?

They're the same lords as before (except the dead ones, obviously), so at least as far as the show is concerned, yes.

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Classist Sansa is now going to mingle with the small folk like Ned and Arya? 

Sansa's arc has its own elements of deconstructing attitudes toward class, rather obviously.  Less so in the show, but that's the consequence of discarding "Alayne Stone" in the name of narrative consolidation.

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Sansa fans can't have it both ways - either she is a manipulative game player like LF which would lead to her doing dubious things or she is not a gameplayer and becomes honorable Ned in which case her entire story arc was a waste of time. She can't be both.

The end result is, I suspect, going to be about being tempted to fully embrace Littlefinger, but ultimately choosing otherwise, and taking from him his skills but not his ideology.  That's what the show was trying to get at, I think, though the writing on the show is generally muddled as hell.  

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And for all the comments about how the North also needs LF style politics, we currently have intrigue and political backstabbing going on the North. And they are handling it just fine without Sansa Stark.

The point being made was that there's not some bifurcation where the things Sansa is learning are of no relevance in the North, which is often suggested by people who view politics as something that only happens south of the Neck.  Northerners scheme and politick every bit as much as their neighbours, as much as their cultural chauvinism might lead them to think otherwise.  Obviously in the book the plot will be different from the show.

Tying this all up re: the show (this conversation dips in and out of being about the books versus the show, but since it's all about speculating about the final season via extrapolation, I guess it's mostly on topic), Sansa being the Lady of Winterfell under [presumed Targaryen restoration of some sort] wouldn't necessarily (indeed, wasn't) my most obvious choice based on the books' text, but I don't think it's inconsistent with anything the author has put down.  Conversely, while the show is written in ways that not infrequently confuse me, at this point the writers' general habit of sledgehammer foreshadowing is more common than not, and we're only six episodes from the endgame.  Whatever's coming should at this point be at least something evident in the show's narrative thrust.

Edited January 31, 2018 by SeanC

[WindyNights]

2 hours ago, anamika said:

What has been set up for her to have pay off in the North? LF is busy making plans for her, but up North things are proceeding just fine without her. The mountain clans are marching for Arya, the Manderlys are making a play for Rickon, Robb's will is hanging around somewhere and if Bran comes back south it's not going to be as some automaton.  Robb also makes it a point to make sure that Sansa does not inherit WF and her marriage to Tyrion is still a thing in the books and it's going to be a while for that to be annulled.

Robb only legitimized Jon ahead of Sansa. He didn't remove her from inheriting and even if he did, Jon could reinstate Sansa's rights. 

Rickon Stark is going to die. His wolf is named Shaggydog and he dies without importance on the show. It's safe to say that he's going to die in the books. 

Arya isn't in the North atm and doesn't want to be the Lady of Winterfell nor is she trained for it. Heck, GRRM has called her psychopathic little girl and TWOW's Mercy shows she's losing her marbles a bit.

Bran Stark can't have children and in the show, we see his endgame as some demi-god that won't become Lord of Winterfell. 

That leaves Sansa. Show Jon even already gave her Winterfell.

 So looks are not important in GRRM's world? Where GRRM often stresses on how Jon and Arya are the only two Starks to actually look like Starks? Where Ned figures out the entire adultery/incest plot in KL based on looks? Where the secret of Jon's birth lies in his appearance?  Where each house is distinctive based on looks? We are not supposed to give any importance or credence at all to the fact Arya is the only Stark to actually look like a Stark?

I mean it means something but not what you want it to mean. It seems that you think because Arya and Jon look like Starks that they're suited to the North but Bran Stark looks like a Tully and he's the one with the closest connection to the Old Gods despite his looks. 

Arya's not going to become Lady of Winterfell unless Sansa becomes Queen of Westeros. That's the only way it'll happen.

 

And for all the comments about how the North also needs LF style politics, we currently have intrigue and political backstabbing going on the North. And they are handling it just fine without Sansa Stark. The Northerners are taking care of the traitorous Boltons while Jon cleverly solves the Karstark problem at the Wall. Arya is learning deceptiveness and perceptiveness, how to tell lies, how to control emotions, how to detect lies from the FM.

Er...Jon got himself killed and Show Arya seems to think like a despot. "They're bad-mouthing my brother, we must cut their heads off."

 

 Finally, I would just like to add that Sansa and Ned are nothing alike. For Ned and even more so for Catelyn - family is everything. Ned would jump off a cliff before he betrayed his family. He sacrificed the one thing he valued most - his honor - to keep his sister's son alive. He once again sacrificed his honor and ended up dying to save his daughter's life. Sansa had no hesitation throwing her family under the bus for personal gain - Catelyn would have been horrified if she knew what Sansa had done. She released a valuable prisoner and fucked up her son's campaign to save her daughters. On the show, Catelyn would have been like Jon, galloping forward on her horse to save Rickon. Not be cold and calculating like Sansa, giving up on Rickon as dead.  Ned and Sansa both made mistakes in KL. But the Ned continues to be appreciated because he was stupid for selfless reasons - to save the Lannister children. Sansa was stupid for selfish reasons.

When people say that Sansa is the most like Ned, we mean Book Sansa. Book Sansa and Show Sansa are two different people. Book Sansa cried for Joffrey when he died and tried helping Lancel Lannister despite how cruel he was to her.

 

The Tully looking Sansa Stark who was educated by Septa Mordane while she was in WF and then spend the next 5 books in the south under the tutelage of Cersei (Who she supposedly learned a lot from in the show) and LF can very well end up in charge of Winterfell at the end of next season. IMO that's an end to Ned Stark's legacy. The North will be ruled differently under her - because she was never around Ned when he made day to day decisions in the running of WF and the North.  I don't think that's the ending that GRRM came up with in the nineties. The ending that he supposedly plans to stick with. The ending that the show is supposedly planning to stick with.

Er, she only spent the first 3 books under Cersei and she disagrees with Cersei. She makes it plain that unlike Cersei, Sansa wants to be loved by the people. 

Sansa's core is a Stark no matter what Cersei and Littlefinger teach her. 

[SeanC]

http://watchersonthewall.com/game-of-thrones-arrives-in-dubrovnik-croatia-for-season-8-filming/

Dubrovnik filming will apparently start shortly.  Twill be interesting to see who shows up.

[SeanC]

11 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Robb only legitimized Jon ahead of Sansa. He didn't remove her from inheriting and even if he did, Jon could reinstate Sansa's rights. 

... 

Arya isn't in the North atm and doesn't want to be the Lady of Winterfell nor is she trained for it. Heck, GRRM has called her psychopathic little girl and TWOW's Mercy shows she's losing her marbles a bit.

We don’t know what Robb’s will did. It’s entirely believable he did disinherit her, since the goal was to prevent the Lannisters from getting Winterfell.

However, you’re correct that that can be just as easily set aside when those circumstances no longer apply, and some may regard it as illegitimate to begin with.

GRRM’s comment is obvious hyperbole, incidentally.  He makes such shorthand pronouncements not infrequently.

I don’t think it’s by any means beyond possibility to regard Arya as the potential final ruler of Winterfell, based on the books anyway, though you’re correct that her story this far hasn’t had much to do with state affairs.  The show has dropped some typically unsubtle foreshadowing that Arya wants to be an explorer, though, so who knows?

[Eyes High]

It appears that the actors I mentioned earlier weren't headed to Iceland after all: Gwendoline and Iain were spotted in Belfast after that photo was posted online. Maybe the actors were all heading out to London for the weekend on the same flight and that's why they were hanging out together at the airport...?

The only actors we know for certain are in Iceland are Kit and Emilia.

I thought that there was only one unit for GOT this year, but it looks as if there will be filming simultaneously at Moneyglass (Winterfell exterior) and in Iceland.

In other news, Peter Dinklage called the experience of reading the final episodes of GOT "heartbreaking" and the "end of an era," although it's not clear whether he was referring to the fact of the show ending or to the substantive narrative conclusion itself.

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

http://watchersonthewall.com/game-of-thrones-arrives-in-dubrovnik-croatia-for-season-8-filming/

Dubrovnik filming will apparently start shortly.  Twill be interesting to see who shows up.

Oh, yes. 

The crew tent was apparently set up near two locations previously used for GOT: Lovrijenac Fortress (the Red Keep); and Pile Bay (Myrcella's departure from KL and the return of her body). No extras were requested for this shooting. Hmmmmmmm.

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

The crew tent was apparently set up near two locations previously used for GOT: Lovrijenac Fortress (the Red Keep); and Pile Bay (Myrcella's departure from KL and the return of her body). No extras were requested for this shooting. Hmmmmmmm.

With Kit and Emilia in Iceland at the moment, they may not be going to Croatia; they would otherwise have been among the most obvious people other than Lena and her supporting characters.

[nikma]

Spoiler

Winterfell is gone.

http://watchersonthewall.com/major-new-game-of-thrones-season-8-spoilers-out-of-the-winterfell-set/

[WindyNights]

12 minutes ago, nikma said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Winterfell is gone.

http://watchersonthewall.com/major-new-game-of-thrones-season-8-spoilers-out-of-the-winterfell-set/

The stone is strong, Bran told himself, the roots of the trees go deep, and under the ground the Kings of Winter sit their thrones. So long as those remained, Winterfell remained. It was not dead, just broken. Like me, he thought. I'm not dead either

[GraceK]

1 hour ago, nikma said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Winterfell is gone.

http://watchersonthewall.com/major-new-game-of-thrones-season-8-spoilers-out-of-the-winterfell-set/

Holy moly!!!!

[anamika]

2 hours ago, nikma said:

  Reveal hidden contents

Winterfell is gone.

http://watchersonthewall.com/major-new-game-of-thrones-season-8-spoilers-out-of-the-winterfell-set/

So Winterfell falls.

As I expected. The final battle with the Others will take place down south.

WF has to fall considering that GRRM has build up the Others as this big threat. And we have clues from Dany's prophetic dragon dreams that there will be a great battle at the Trident. The threat of the Others will endanger the whole of Westeros. Not just the North. Winter will move inexorably south affecting people and armies there as well.

I expect the Northerners to begin evacuating south and the southern armies to come into play in the books. This is where the army of the Vale, Dorne and the Reach will probably get involved in the books unless they are not decimated in the wars that happen when Dany gets to Westeros.

Winterfell and the North will need a Bran the Builder once again when all is said and done.

Edit 1 : They basically seemed to have burned down the whole set from looking at the pictures. Maybe the wights and WW overrun the place and they have no choice but to burn the place down?

There was also that WOTW info about Lannisters/Golden Company at the gates of WF. Would it not be hilarious if David and Dan wrote it as the Lannister army marching all the way North through all that snow and burning down WF? The Lannisters and Cersei stay winning right into season 8!

Edit 2 : So remember Tyrion burning down WF in the original outline? I had assumed that Ramsay had taken elements off original outline Tyrion. But there have been rumors of a Tyrion betrayal from the FF 'leaks' ... maybe he has something to do with this?

Many possibilities here...

Edited February 1, 2018 by anamika

[GraceK]

I just hope Ghost makes it out 

[WindyNights]

35 minutes ago, anamika said:

So Winterfell falls.

As I expected. The final battle with the Others will take place down south.

WF has to fall considering that GRRM has build up the Others as this big threat. And we have clues from Dany's prophetic dragon dreams that there will be a great battle at the Trident. The threat of the Others will endanger the whole of Westeros. Not just the North. Winter will move inexorably south affecting people and armies there as well.

I expect the Northerners to begin evacuating south and the southern armies to come into play in the books. This is where the army of the Vale, Dorne and the Reach will probably get involved in the books unless they are not decimated in the wars that happen when Dany gets to Westeros.

Winterfell and the North will need a Bran the Builder once again when all is said and done.

Edit 1 : They basically seemed to have burned down the whole set from looking at the pictures. Maybe the wights and WW overrun the place and they have no choice but to burn the place down?

There was also that WOTW info about Lannisters/Golden Company at the gates of WF. Would it not be hilarious if David and Dan wrote it as the Lannister army marching all the way North through all that snow and burning down WF? The Lannisters and Cersei stay winning right into season 8!

Edit 2 : So remember Tyrion burning down WF in the original outline? I had assumed that Ramsay had taken elements off original outline Tyrion. But there have been rumors of a Tyrion betrayal from the FF 'leaks' ... maybe he has something to do with this?

Many possibilities here...

Tyrion's not gonna burn down Winterfell. The person who said that Tyrion burns Winterfell also said that Jaime helps him as they betray the North.

[anamika]

35 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

Tyrion's not gonna burn down Winterfell. The person who said that Tyrion burns Winterfell also said that Jaime helps him as they betray the North.

No, that person was not sure about the Jaime part. He also said that Tyrion betrays the North, not that he burns down WF. No leak has ever mentioned WF burning down. This is new!

Anyways I am just speculating here. There's a lot of stuff that's fishy about these 'leaks' so I am not taking it as fact.

In the books, Tyrion is taking a dark turn and even before these so called 'leaks'  I have been talking about Tyrion as a villain. Check out the endgame spec thread. Or maybe it's this one. Not sure. GRRM has called him a villain and his act of raping that slave definitely puts him in that territory in my books.

We have the original outline love triangle where Jon and Tyrion turn into enemies over Arya. In this case, it could be Dany. I recall the season 7 script was peppered with references to Tyrion falling for Dany. Of course none of that made into the show, same as Sansa's outlined motives for her actions never did - because David and Dan put more importance on surprise and shock scenes than logical story telling. We did have that last scene of Tyrion looking at Jon going into Dany's room.

Anyway I think we will see a different Tyrion next season. The show has whitewashed book Tyrion so much that anything he does next season will come as a surprise/shock for the audience.

But WF burning on the show could be due to any number of reasons at this point - WW, NK, Euron/Lannisters/GC, Tyrion betrayal. It's most probably WW/NK - Lannister army burning down the place would be a bit too much. Cersei is already too OP.

Edited February 1, 2018 by anamika

[Avaleigh]

Awesome spoiler. I assumed Winterfell would always be safe, so it's cool to know that anything can happen this season. 

[Eyes High]

The guy who works in the Belfast hotel where cast members stay said that on Sunday he saw Grey Worm, Gendry and the Hound's actors at the hotel. So we finally have a Rory McCann sighting!

I wonder what Kit and Emilia are filming in Iceland. 

1. /Freefolk is all abuzz with potential spoilers from someone--GettingtheBetsyWetsy (let's call them "Betsy")--who claims to have a cousin who was an extra in S8 in the fall. Betsy provided some spoilers a few months ago and (if I'm not mistaken) supplied proof to the /Freefolk mods. Betsy also claims to have a friend who works on the production who has passed along some spoilers. Betsy has said that Tyrion (and/or Jaime) betrays the North.

2. Betsy had previously said that the day their cousin filmed there was a closed set and there were rumours that either Sansa or Arya dies. Betsy subsequently confirmed that Sansa dies.

3. Sophie hasn't been filming that much and hasn't been filming over the past two weeks during the filming of the Winterfell battle (exteriors). 

4. Kaysen762 (/Freefolk mod) said that someone (but not Betsy) told her that Peter and Sophie filmed on a closed set, although Kaysen762 cautioned that she didn't know whether it was true.

So, assuming all this is correct, uh...Tyrion murders Sansa? Don't think anyone had that in the pool. (It could be something along the lines of Tyrion being in the room when Sansa succumbs to an assassin's poison or something, of course, like Myrcella's death scene, I guess.)

D&D did joke back in 2017 about just having written Sansa's death scene when they were discussing the writing of S8, which seems like an odd thing to do if they really planned on killing her off, but Sansa's death would be one of the least surprising aspects of S8 to me. There was earlier speculation that Sansa would just hold down the fort at Winterfell while the real action would take place elsewhere, meaning it would take Sophie less time to film in S8, but we know now that Winterfell burns down in spectacular fashion at some point, so that theory no longer holds water, and if Sophie is filming less compared to the other main cast, well...

If Sophie turns up in Dubrovnik, where filming is supposed to start "any day now," we'll have our answer. 

Edited February 1, 2018 by Eyes High

[anamika]

32 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

3. Sophie hasn't been filming that much and hasn't been filming over the past two weeks during the filming of the Winterfell battle (exteriors).

 

Actually, I think Sophie is filming more than she usually does. She has been missing for large chunks of time where I assume she has been filming. She did not attend any of the award shows. If Sansa is going to die in this battle, you can be assured that David and Dan will give their fave a big send off. The whole episode maybe centered around her - could be a Tyrion at Blackwater scenario for her. Who knows, maybe we will see her fighting off wights - Sophie has always wanted fight scenes and I think D and D would oblige her. She is an armor expert and military strategist on the show now, it's not that far of a stretch to see her wielding a sword.

Edited February 1, 2018 by anamika

[SimoneS]

Winterfell burning is exciting as hell! It is and isn't a surprise. The NK was sure to attack Winterfell with Viserion. However, I am surprised that Dany isn't repelling the attack with Drogon and Rhaegal.

I always thought that the non-combatants like Tyrion, Sansa,  Melissandei, and Varys would have to retreat to a safer location and I speculated that Cersei would attempt to abduction them. 

Edited February 1, 2018 by SimoneS

[anamika]

4 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I always thought that the non-combatants like Tyrion, Sansa,  Melissandei, and Varys would have to retreat to a safer location and I speculated that Cersei would attempt to abduction them. 

Several Cersei abduction schemes have also been 'leaked' by various 'leakers'. I think there was one where Jon and Sansa were taken, another where everyone (The WF gang) was taken, one where only Jon was taken and I think Arya and Sansa tag team to rescue him...

[Eyes High]

23 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Winterfell burning is exciting as hell! It is and isn't a surprise. The NK was sure to attack Winterfell with Viserion. However, I am surprised that Dany isn't repelling the attack with Drogon and Rhaegal.

 

Maybe Jon and Dany decide it's too risky, assuming the Lannister soldiers brought anti-dragon weapons.

As for Winterfell burning...strictly speaking, Winterfell has burned once before. It's going to be exciting to see it happen, though, as opposed to after the fact as when Winterfell was a smoldering ruin in the background in S2.

I have no idea what Lannister or GC soldiers would be doing at Winterfell. Wasn't Cersei's plan to let Team Jon/Dany and Team WW take each other out?

Assuming this is a surprise nighttime attack, it would be the second time in as many seasons that D&D went to that well (as that's how Euron's raid on Yara and the Sand Snakes' fleet played out). The visuals will be incredible, I'm sure, but really?

The art director did an interview recently indicating that March would be a very busy month for filming: "Miguel Sapochnik has just started shooting his massive things, particularly in March." If the big Winterfell battle is being filmed now, WTF is happening in March? More Winterfell battle filming? How long could the Winterfell battle filming continue for another two months if they've already set fire to the set (which would presumably be the last thing they would shoot)?

I'm kind of excited at the prospect of a massive battle that spans the better part of an episode. Even the BOTB didn't involve that much battle: a lot of it was lead-up (Jon by himself) or post-battle stuff (Jon vs. Ramsay at Winterfell). The Field of Fire sequence was only about 10 minutes (counting from the time Drogon appears). If they're truly going to go balls to the wall for S8, I want to see an extended battle sequence: a long, ruinously expensive, ridiculously elaborate, took-three-months-to-film battle sequence. Let's do it.

Quote

Who knows, maybe we will see her fighting off wights - Sophie has always wanted fight scenes and I think D and D would oblige her. She is an armor expert and military strategist on the show now, it's not that far of a stretch to see her wielding a sword.

Heh, they would do that, wouldn't they?

It was Sansa's idea to stockpile all the food at Winterfell, and I wonder whether that plot point will be addressed when Winterfell goes up in flames after what I assume is a surprise attack.

Edited February 1, 2018 by Eyes High

[bubble sparkly]

Might it be possible that the Lannister soldiers are there to help Team DanyJon? I.e maybe Jaimie managed to convince a contingent of soldiers to follow him North? Then perhaps the battle is with the NK army and Team DanyJon could purposely decide to evacuate WF and burn it down to kill a chunk of the army?

IDK, just throwing it out there because I agree it would not make sense for Cersei to 1) risk her army going north for a battle instead of waiting until after the NK battle like she outlined last season, and 2) that the Lannister army could just rock up outside the WF gates without anyone noticing.

The only way I could see her deciding this is a good plan is if she completely loses her marbles when she inevitably suffers a miscarriage and learns that Dany is pregnant and / or Jon is a Targ.

[Happy Harpy]

9 hours ago, Eyes High said:

1. /Freefolk is all abuzz with potential spoilers from someone--GettingtheBetsyWetsy (let's call them "Betsy")--who claims to have a cousin who was an extra in S8 in the fall. Betsy provided some spoilers a few months ago and (if I'm not mistaken) supplied proof to the /Freefolk mods. Betsy also claims to have a friend who works on the production who has passed along some spoilers. Betsy has said that Tyrion (and/or Jaime) betrays the North.

He might know a thing or two, but the numerous mentions of his personal life scream trolling for attention on the net. Lads or Truede last year were scarce on details but plot ones. JMHO.

HBO doesn't have money to waste on shooting misleading scenes or endings, but they can send interns to flood Freefolk with false leaks while giving them proof about a couple of things that outdoors filming will reveal sooner or later anyway. They can use their connections on fan websites to create buzz about nothing, or even just count on them to create buzz about nothing with their wrong interpretations. Remember how the corpses burning on crosses before the BotB were supposed to be important characters, and ended up being nobodies?

Winterfell falling was very predictable (even I did predict it) but in a good way, because it makes sense.

[SeanC]

11 hours ago, anamika said:

Actually, I think Sophie is filming more than she usually does. She has been missing for large chunks of time where I assume she has been filming. She did not attend any of the award shows. 

She didn’t attend SAG because of filming (the first time she was there in some time, seemingly), but she was in North America on vacation during the Golden Globes, she just didn’t go.  Prior to late January, there’s no indication she was in Belfast for quite a while (she’s one of the cast members whose movements tend to be reported on quite extensively on social media).

[YaddaYadda]

12 hours ago, Eyes High said:

1. /Freefolk is all abuzz with potential spoilers from someone--GettingtheBetsyWetsy (let's call them "Betsy")--who claims to have a cousin who was an extra in S8 in the fall. Betsy provided some spoilers a few months ago and (if I'm not mistaken) supplied proof to the /Freefolk mods. Betsy also claims to have a friend who works on the production who has passed along some spoilers. Betsy has said that Tyrion (and/or Jaime) betrays the North.

Winterfell falling, I can see it. The show completely bypassed whatever is going on with the crypts, so I'm really not expecting anything from that. But this betrayal spumor is just so annoying. Betraying the north for what? Cersei? House Lannister? A crown? There's an army of dead men coming for everyone. There's 6 episodes left, lets just get on with it. If there's truth to this, then I don't even know what to say. It took Jaime long enough to leave Cersei's skirts, let's not regress that. And if Tyrion betrays Jon and Dany, then I don't even know what to think.

[SeanC]

5 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

And if Tyrion betrays Jon and Dany, then I don't even know what to think.

I don’t see how Show!Tyrion could ever betray Jon and Dany to Cersei.  If that’s his final role, then the writers’ elimination of his character flaws over previous seasons is ludicrous.

[Happy Harpy]

30 minutes ago, SeanC said:

I don’t see how Show!Tyrion could ever betray Jon and Dany to Cersei.  If that’s his final role, then the writers’ elimination of his character flaws over previous seasons is ludicrous.

I can't see any Tyrion, show or book, betraying Jon and Dany to Cersei of all people. The show one because he's too "good", the book one because he hates her too much. And in any case, it would be an insult to his intelligence. I still hope it is revealed he didn't trust her word at the parlay. Child or no child, it makes no sense.

[GraceK]

Yeah it doesn’t make sense for Tyrion to betray them at this point. What’s his motive? The worst I could think he did was make some shady deal with Cersei to protect her baby, but when Jamie tells them of her betrayal that goes out the window. I don’t put anything past Cersei, but it makes no sense for her to attack WF so soon. Her plan last season at least made a little sense... why would she attack before the NK is defeated ?  Her strategy in her mind is sound, it only hurts her to attack them before their army is depleted. It’s possible it’s the NK and Viserion who is responsible for the fire...I like that option better to be honest :)

[YaddaYadda]

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

I don’t see how Show!Tyrion could ever betray Jon and Dany to Cersei.  If that’s his final role, then the writers’ elimination of his character flaws over previous seasons is ludicrous.

It doesn't. But given the show's track record and their shock value over writing something that makes sense, I'm not going to hold my breath too much on reasons that would make sense.

[Eyes High]

WOTW said on Twitter that apparently, locals called the fire departments because they were alarmed by the Winterfell set in flames. Emergency vehicles actually showed up (I think you can see them briefly in the video).

Pics of the crew setting up for filming in Dubrovnik. It looks like they'll be filming right at the water. You can see photos of what look like props: baskets, hampers, chests, and caskets, and carts for transporting them. You can also see crew members setting up a little canopy on the pier. So I guess someone will be either unloading a bunch of goods upon arrival at King's Landing or getting ready to set sail....? The props--as well as the canopy--also reminded me of Arya's scenes from Season 5 at the Braavos market.

According to this site, it will be three-day filming of one scene.

Kit was just spotted in the Iceland airport, so I guess Iceland filming has already been completed. On to Dubrovnik, I assume...unless the scene is the arrival of the Golden Company, in which case Jon is unlikely to be present.

It will be veeeery interesting to see who shows up in Dubrovnik for that scene. Given the information we've already received about the Dubrovnik filming, we may get some very good information as to what's going on in the scene and which actors are present.

Edited February 1, 2018 by Eyes High

[anamika]

If people are expecting logical progression of show characters to their book endings, then they are going to be disappointed. The show has been writing their own versions of these characters for quite some time and yet they have to write GRRM's endings for these characters - whether it makes sense or not.  Most of the actors themselves seem to be surprised by the endings. Maisie Williams talked about she had to go back and start from season one and plot Arya's arc with a beginning, a middle and an end.

I think a lot of show viewers are going to be surprised by Arya's story arc and ending next season given David and Dan's writing of the character.  In fact if the Tyrion betrayal is true then GRRM's original outline is still in play, and I am coming to think that Arya will play an even more important role than Jon and Dany.  If Jon and Dany just go off at the end of it all wanting to do nothing with ruling, I can see Arya as a leader. 

Same with Bran. I can see him as the new Bran the builder. Magic either dies out along with the dragons and direwolves or it stays and Bran uses the help of COTF to rebuild Winterfell and the wall with magic.

Tyrion is a dark character in the book, engaging in villainous acts. GRRM has straight out called him a villain. The original outline hints that his ending would involve a deadly rivalry with Jon.  His ending will be him going against the Starks for some reason.

In the books, it maybe over his love for Dany - I think Dany is due one betrayal for love.  In the show there were hints of that in the script as well. But since show Tyrion is so whitewashed they could try to justify Tyrion's betrayal being due his dislike of Dany's way of doing things.

 Siding with Cersei makes no sense, but we never saw the Tyrion-Cersei conversation after she reveals her pregnancy on the show. In the books, Tyrion is most certainly not going to side with Cersei and I doubt that book Cersei even lasts that long. Book Tyrion's betrayal could be something else entirely.  Tyrion maybe heading for death. I hope he gets to finish his joke before he dies.

With Jon and Dany, it could be that they survive but are tired of it all and just go away. Both of them dying, one of them dying, one of them on the IT or both of them on the IT are the endings for them, so it could be that none of that happens.

The wheel is broken, there is no Iron Throne, the heroes (Jon and Dany) disappear into anonymity, a fledgling democratic system starts to take shape, Arya leads, Bran builds, Dadvos helps. Tyrion, Jaime, Cersei die - bringing an end to that branch of the Lannisters and Tywin's legacy. Brienne goes back to Tarth. Would this be as bittersweet as the scouring of the shire? Too bitter? Too sweet?

41 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

WOTW said on Twitter that apparently, locals called the fire departments because they were alarmed by the Winterfell set in flames. Emergency vehicles actually showed up (I think you can see them briefly in the video).

I would have thought that they would have already informed the fire department that they are planning on having some big fires on set. 

Edited February 1, 2018 by anamika

[Eyes High]

22 minutes ago, anamika said:

The wheel is broken, there is no Iron Throne, the heroes (Jon and Dany) disappear into anonymity, a fledgling democratic system starts to take shape,

It's possible, although I think Jon and Dany have too strong a sense of duty to just fuck off and let their friends, loved ones and devoted followers shift for themselves in a Westeros devastated by war. Would Jon do that to Arya? Would Dany do that to Jorah, not to mention the Unsullied and Dothraki pledged to her? They have too many people who not only care about them but who rely on and depend on them.

 

Quote

Arya leads, Bran builds, Dadvos helps. Tyrion, Jaime, Cersei die - bringing an end to that branch of the Lannisters and Tywin's legacy. Brienne goes back to Tarth. Would this be as bittersweet as the scouring of the shire? Too bitter? Too sweet?

Strictly speaking, Tyrion doesn't need to die to bring an end to Tywin's line; he just needs to avoid having legitimate children, something which is unlikely to be a problem for him given that the show has done away with his marriage and he seems to have soured on relationships.

Assuming Winterfell burns (again) in the books, that may be GRRM's answer to the Scouring of the Shire: after the NK is defeated, someone will need to pick up the pieces and rebuild the Starks' beloved home. Of course, Winterfell has already been burned once already, so the emotional impact would be considerably lessened.

Nothing on the show really points to Arya having an endgame leadership role, except I guess the way she takes charge in organizing the escape from Harrenhal in Season 2. The books, however, place more emphasis on Arya's leadership potential, although GRRM cheerfully agrees she's a "psychopathic little girl." So maybe Arya starts commanding armies and shit in Season 8. If D&D want to set up Arya as a credible endgame leader of some kind within six episodes, they have their work cut out for them.

Edited February 1, 2018 by Eyes High

[GraceK]

I think it’s very possible the big battle of Winterfell is with the NK and his wights, and it would make sense if Dany sets WF on fire as a clean up act. Since we know one of the  ways to kill the WW and Wights is with fire, it might be Jon and his side sacrificing WF to kill them all once the survivors have evacuated. I like this scenario :)

 

I like it better than it being Cersei’s or Tyrion’s doing anyway 

Edited February 1, 2018 by GraceK

[anamika]

45 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

It's possible, although I think Jon and Dany have too strong a sense of duty to just fuck off and let their friends, loved ones and devoted followers shift for themselves in a Westeros devastated by war. Would Jon do that to Arya? Would Dany do that to Jorah, not to mention the Unsullied and Dothraki pledged to her? They have too many people who not only care about them but who rely on and depend on them.

True. Though Jorah's logical ending for me would be as 1000 LC at the new wall.

48 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

 If D&D want to set up Arya as a credible endgame leader of some kind within six episodes, they have their work cut out for them.

This is the show we are talking about.  Considering that Sansa often gets proclaimed as the greatest ruler in Westeros because they gave her two lines about grain and armor, it's more easier than you think!

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

I think it’s very possible the big battle of Winterfell is with the NK and his wights, and it would make sense if Dany sets WF on fire as a clean up act. Since we know one of the  ways to kill the WW and Wights is with fire, it might be Jon and his side sacrificing WF to kill them all once the survivors have evacuated. I like this scenario :)

 

I like it better than it being Cersei’s or Tyrion’s doing anyway 

 

The only problem with that is that the clip of the extras outside the set featured a lot of shouting, which--assuming that they represent the attackers--would make no sense if they were wights. So I lean towards this being a Lannister and/or GC effort.

 

41 minutes ago, anamika said:

True. Though Jorah's logical ending for me would be as 1000 LC at the new wall.

Why would they need a new Wall if the WWs are wiped out? I thought the show had also hinted at the lands beyond the Wall warming up once the WWs are defeated, judging from Bran's visions of the stone formation once being green and beautiful and later being shown to be completely frozen over.

Judging from how the show has set up Sam as the likely Warden of the South, it seems likely that the NW will be permanently disbanded to give Sam his out. (It will also have the benefit of rendering any lingering debate over Jon leaving the NW academic.)

As for Arya, if Sansa does die in a Lannister attack on Winterfell, I can see her S8 arc involving one last Arya/Hound road trip, this time on a revenge mission to kill Cersei (with the added bonus of Cleganebowl). Does it still count as fridging if a female character is killed off in service of another female character's development?

Edited February 1, 2018 by Eyes High

[SimoneS]

35 minutes ago, anamika said:

True. Though Jorah's logical ending for me would be as 1000 LC at the new wall.

IMO, Jorah's logical ending is the Captain of the Queen's Guard. After all with Bran's foresight and the NK defeated, the threat from the north is defeated permanently so there will be no need to rebuild the wall.  Or what @Eyes High said about the Wall and Sam above.

Edited February 1, 2018 by SimoneS

[Eyes High]

More tidbits from recent filming:

Belfast Live reports that the burning of Winterfell bit involved a big battle with 400-500 extras. 

Apparently, the Iceland filming with Kit and Emilia had no other cast except some local extras, and filming took only a day. (For comparison, the S7 filming in Iceland--involving a few walking scenes and a short fight sequence--took 10 days.) What on earth were Kit and Emilia filming? 

Edited February 1, 2018 by Eyes High

[bubble sparkly]

For me, Jorah's logical ending is dying for Daenerys, his last word an emotional "Khaleesi........" lol.  Sir Friendzone until the end.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, bubble sparkly said:

For me, Jorah's logical ending is dying for Daenerys, his last word an emotional "Khaleesi........" lol.  Sir Friendzone until the end.

Death would be a kindness if the alternative is having a front row seat to Dany and Jon living happily ever after.

[Cosmosgravitation]

4 hours ago, anamika said:

I think a lot of show viewers are going to be surprised by Arya's story arc and ending next season given David and Dan's writing of the character.  In fact if the Tyrion betrayal is true then GRRM's original outline is still in play, and I am coming to think that Arya will play an even more important role than Jon and Dany.  If Jon and Dany just go off at the end of it all wanting to do nothing with ruling, I can see Arya as a leader.

Same with Bran. I can see him as the new Bran the builder. Magic either dies out along with the dragons and direwolves or it stays and Bran uses the help of COTF to rebuild Winterfell and the wall with magic.

Arya is important, no doubt, but I wouldn't say she'll play a more important role than Jon or Dany.  I've always viewed the big five (Jon, Dany, Arya, Tyrion, Bran) named in the original outline as of equal importance.   I can definitely see her as leading the north, but the only way I see her as Queen of all of Westeros is if she ends marrying Jon. 

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In the books, it maybe over his love for Dany - I think Dany is due one betrayal for love.  In the show there were hints of that in the script as well. But since show Tyrion is so whitewashed they could try to justify Tyrion's betrayal being due his dislike of Dany's way of doing things.

 Siding with Cersei makes no sense, but we never saw the Tyrion-Cersei conversation after she reveals her pregnancy on the show. In the books, Tyrion is most certainly not going to side with Cersei and I doubt that book Cersei even lasts that long. Book Tyrion's betrayal could be something else entirely.  Tyrion maybe heading for death. I hope he gets to finish his joke before he dies.

In the show, I think Cersei has basically been given the role of fAegon from the books because D&D love the actress/character.  If fAegon were in Cersei's place, Dany's desire for a truce makes more sense since she would be wondering if fAegon is her nephew.  Tyrion also wouldn't be hesitant about siding with fAegon, unlike Cersei, and Varys would already be on fAegon's side.

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With Jon and Dany, it could be that they survive but are tired of it all and just go away.

 

I can't see that happening, mostly because I think it'd be much too happy of an ending for them.  I also think it'd be out of character for them to abandon their duties and followers like that. 

My personal prediction is that Jon and Dany marry, have a son, and Dany dies.  I'm less sure about what happens after that, but going on all the foreshadowing in the books I think Jon does remain as king.  While it's not my personal preference, I also think it's possible he ends up marrying Arya some time after Dany dies.  There is some foreshadowing for it in the books, and it might tie into Maisie saying she had to go back to the first season for her arc.  Jon and Dany's son would be the next king, Jon and Arya's son would be Warden of the North and continue the Stark name.  Sansa dies, Tyrion dies at the very end or is sent to the Wall, Bran becomes the next Three Eyed Raven, Davos or Sam as Hand.  All the dragons die except Rhaegal, which Jon rides. 

Of course, I kinda hope I'm completely wrong just to be surprised. 

Edited February 1, 2018 by Cosmosgravitation

[enoughcats]

Pictures of Winterfell on fire

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-5341563/Game-Thrones-set-video-reveals-HUGE-spoiler.html

[SimoneS]

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

More tidbits from recent filming:

Belfast Live reports that the burning of Winterfell bit involved a big battle with 400-500 extras. 

Apparently, the Iceland filming with Kit and Emilia had no other cast except some local extras, and filming took only a day. (For comparison, the S7 filming in Iceland--involving a few walking scenes and a short fight sequence--took 10 days.) What on earth were Kit and Emilia filming? 

I have been thinking about this. Maybe Dany and Jon fly north on Drogon to spy on the NK and his army and look for Viserion.

[WindyNights]

5 hours ago, Eyes High said:

The only problem with that is that the clip of the extras outside the set featured a lot of shouting, which--assuming that they represent the attackers--would make no sense if they were wights. So I lean towards this being a Lannister and/or GC effort.

 

Why would they need a new Wall if the WWs are wiped out? I thought the show had also hinted at the lands beyond the Wall warming up once the WWs are defeated, judging from Bran's visions of the stone formation once being green and beautiful and later being shown to be completely frozen over.

Judging from how the show has set up Sam as the likely Warden of the South, it seems likely that the NW will be permanently disbanded to give Sam his out. (It will also have the benefit of rendering any lingering debate over Jon leaving the NW academic.)

As for Arya, if Sansa does die in a Lannister attack on Winterfell, I can see her S8 arc involving one last Arya/Hound road trip, this time on a revenge mission to kill Cersei (with the added bonus of Cleganebowl). Does it still count as fridging if a female character is killed off in service of another female character's development?

Yep, that's still fridging aka bad writing. 

 

The term (sometimes formed as "fridging") was popularized by comic book writer Gail Simonethrough her website "Women in Refrigerators." On that site, Simone compiled a list of instances of female comic book characters who were killed off as a plot device. The term came to be used more broadly, over time, to refer to any character who is targeted by an antagonist who has them killed off, abused, raped, incapacitated, de-powered, or brainwashed for the sole purpose of affecting another character, motivating them to take action

 

Sansa as a POV has her own arc so if she's going to die then it has to be a result of her own mistakes and impactful not because a random Lannister mook kills her which is more like how you kill a side-character.

[WindyNights]

3 hours ago, Cosmosgravitation said:

 

My personal prediction is that Jon and Dany marry, have a son, and Dany dies.  I'm less sure about what happens after that, but going on all the foreshadowing in the books I think Jon does remain as king.  While it's not my personal preference, I also think it's possible he ends up marrying Arya some time after Dany dies.  There is some foreshadowing for it in the books, and it might tie into Maisie saying she had to go back to the first season for her arc.  Jon and Dany's son would be the next king, Jon and Arya's son would be Warden of the North and continue the Stark name.  Sansa dies, Tyrion dies at the very end or is sent to the Wall, Bran becomes the next Three Eyed Raven, Davos or Sam as Hand.  All the dragons die except Rhaegal, which Jon rides. 

Of course, I kinda hope I'm completely wrong just to be surprised. 

 

This sounds like a fan fic for Jon Snow. 

 

You've essentially given Jon Snow everything. King Jon's line rules Westeros and the North. He impregnates Daenerys who dies and then impregnates Arya. He rides the last dragon etc. 

Jon's not going to marry Arya. They think of themselves as siblings at this point. Hell even GRRM says that the outline is a load of horseshit that he wrote fast to send to publishers.

Edited February 2, 2018 by WindyNights

[Eyes High]

/Freefolk has a roundup of the Dubrovnik filming information here.

 

30 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

Sansa as a POV has her own arc so if she's going to die then it has to be a result of her own mistakes and impactful not because a random Lannister mook kills her which is more like how you kill a side-character.

Well, going back to Lady, Lady didn't die as a result of anything Lady had done, did she?

 

3 hours ago, Cosmosgravitation said:

Arya is important, no doubt, but I wouldn't say she'll play a more important role than Jon or Dany.  I've always viewed the big five (Jon, Dany, Arya, Tyrion, Bran) named in the original outline as of equal importance.   I can definitely see her as leading the north, but the only way I see her as Queen of all of Westeros is if she ends marrying Jon. 

(...)

Of course, I kinda hope I'm completely wrong just to be surprised. 

 

The problem is that the main piece of evidence in favour of Arya ending up as Jon's queen is Jon and Arya's apparent requited love in the outline, coupled with GRRM's repeated statements to the effect that he has never changed the ending, and that ASOIAF's ending is the same he planned in 1991. However, the outline never actually says that Jon and Arya wind up together, only that their distress over their mutual passion ends when Jon's parentage is revealed. Furthermore, the outline also stated pretty clearly that the big five survive. So fans of a Jon/Arya king/queen endgame based on the outline can't have it both ways: either the outline is bullshit GRRM made up to appease the publishers as GRRM has claimed and therefore Jon/Arya won't be a thing at all, or else the outline's ending has been preserved and therefore Dany survives along with the other members of the big five, meaning that, given Jon and Dany's love story in the show, that Jon/Dany is and always has been endgame.

 

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Tyrion dies at the very end 

Possible, sure, but highly unlikely. One of GRRM's editors said that she knows "where Tyrion ends up," language which pretty much gives away that he lives. Also, the outline made it clear that Tyrion along with the other four leads was untouchable, so if GRRM is indeed sticking with the same ending he always planned, a living Tyrion will be part of it.

 

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or is sent to the Wall

What Wall? The Wall has been destroyed, and when the WWs are defeated, there will be no need to rebuild it. The show has also suggested with Bran's two visions of the same stone formation--one in the past when the first WW was created (green and vibrant) and one in the present (completely frozen)--that once the WWs are gone, the lands of always winter will become green again.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Eyes High