Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[anamika]

19 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

No, I was just saying one way to deconstruct a person having powers at a young age is by making them turn evil because absolute power has corrupted them.  

Dont think we're getting super-villain, dark lord Bran.

Just distant, bored god Bran.

More Dr. Manhattan and less Sauron.

 

In which case GRRM should have said that his ending will be more like the  Dune and Children of Dune bittersweet endings which I always thought was more sad and bitter than happy while LOTR was slightly more happy than bitter.  Children of Dune had pretty much the ending you are envisioning with Leto II becoming the God Emperor because he is a prescient being like Bran and thinks it would be best if he had absolute control over the empire. And is corrupted by absolute power. And this is what GRRM had to say about the Dune series:

Edited December 5, 2018 by anamika

[WindyNights]

3 minutes ago, anamika said:

In which case GRRM should have said that his ending will be more like the  Dune and Children of Dune bittersweet endings which I always thought was more sad and bitter than happy while LOTR was slightly more happy than bitter.  Children of Dune had pretty much the ending you are envisioning with Leto II becoming the God Emperor because he as a prescient being like Bran and thinks it would be best if he had absolute control over the empire. And this is what GRRM had to say about the Dune series:

I've read them. The Dune books have really good ideas and concepts that are interesting but the way they're written is.....as dry as the planet they're on. 

I couldn't get past Children of Dune but I don't think Dune and Dune Messiah were that good either. It's the execution that's wrong imo not the ideas that they're playing with.

They may not be GRRM's favorite but he's definitely ripped elements from Dune consciously or sub-consciously.

Melange+ Sapho is pretty much Shade of the Evening. Shade of the Evening turns people's lips blue in the same way that Sapho turns people's lips red. And Melange helps people see visions of the future like Shade of the Evening does.

[Eyes High]

GRRM may grouse about the Dune series not being one of his favourites, but he sure borrows from it liberally: Alia/Arya, Jessica/Catelyn, Leto/Ned, Paul/Jon, the Face Dancers/Faceless Men, etc. Is Bloodraven extending his lifespan by merging with the weirwood inspired by Leto II extending his lifespan merging with the sandtrout? GRRM would never admit it, but I have my suspicions. A possible Dune influence isn’t surprising when you consider GRRM’s strong background in science fiction. I always think of GRRM as a sci-fi/horror author first and foremost. I wouldn’t be surprised if ASOIAF’s endgame, whatever it is, reflects that to some extent.

BoatsexBaby on /Freefolk has just said that although they don’t have confirmation of Bran’s endgame, their info is that Bran doesn’t end up as king or head of a ruling council. So if you believe that BoatsexBaby has legitimate spoilers, it’s back to the drawing board. 

[WindyNights]

14 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

GRRM may grouse about the Dune series not being one of his favourites, but he sure borrows from it liberally: Alia/Arya, Jessica/Catelyn, Leto/Ned, Paul/Jon, the Face Dancers/Faceless Men, etc. Is Bloodraven extending his lifespan by merging with the weirwood inspired by Leto II extending his lifespan merging with the sandtrout? GRRM would never admit it, but I have my suspicions. A possible Dune influence isn’t surprising when you consider GRRM’s strong background in science fiction. I always think of GRRM as a sci-fi/horror author first and foremost. I wouldn’t be surprised if ASOIAF’s endgame, whatever it is, reflects that to some extent.

BoatsexBaby on /Freefolk has just said that although they don’t have confirmation of Bran’s endgame, their info is that Bran doesn’t end up as king or head of a ruling council. So if you believe that BoatsexBaby has legitimate spoilers, it’s back to the drawing board. 

 

Yes, there are those parallels too.

 If BSB's info is legit then we shouldn't expect a trial for Tyrion either, correct? 

I think I remember her naying the Tyrion info from Friki

Edited December 5, 2018 by WindyNights

[Eyes High]

12 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

 

Yes, there are those parallels too.

 If BSB's info is legit then we shouldn't expect a trial for Tyrion either, correct? 

I think I remember her naying the Tyrion info from Friki

Yeah, BSB has said that they don’t think there’s a Tyrion trial, and that their info about the Dragonpit scene directly contradicts Friki’s. 

[GrailKing]

10 hours ago, Leila6 said:

I fully agree with this. If Bran really does end up “king” with Arya and Sansa, it would be deeply unsatisfying and illogical. What’s the point of having characters like Dany and Jon learn to rule, to figure out their tax policies, as GRRM wants, if an omniscient, robotic being is the endgame ruler? How is that narratively fulfilling? Why would “That’s not me,” trained assassin Arya do an about-face (hehe) and want to play politics? Much has been made about Sansa as a power player (in the show at least), but the true thrust of her character arc on the show is about embracing her Starkness and reclaiming her northern identity. But she’s going to end up as the power behind the throne in the backbiting south? It all makes no sense to me, and if that’s how they end it, they’re going to have to do a lot of building up to it in the very short time they have left, which doesn’t seem achievable.

Who says the power will remain in the South though?

If KL gets total; a new capitol can emerge.

[anamika]

1 hour ago, WindyNights said:

Melange+ Sapho is pretty much Shade of the Evening. Shade of the Evening turns people's lips blue in the same way that Sapho turns people's lips red. And Melange helps people see visions of the future like Shade of the Evening does.

 Melange is the drug that underpins the Dune universe. And it does more than give visions. Comparing it to the Shade of the Evening and extrapolating from there that GRRM is taking his ending from Children of Dune is a stretch.

If that's what we are theorizing, then why not say that GRRM's ending will be like the Wheel of Time series since there are so many elements of those books in ASoIaF. Like prophecies and the unreliable nature of prophecies and how they can be misinterpreted. Azor Ahai and the Prince that was Promised and the Dragon Reborn. Starks warging direwolves and the Wolf brother in Wheel of Time. Why not make connections to LOTR and Jon/Aragorn as many have done. Fantasy series by their very nature have many things in common with other books in the genre.

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

GRRM may grouse about the Dune series not being one of his favourites, but he sure borrows from it liberally: Alia/Arya, Jessica/Catelyn, Leto/Ned, Paul/Jon, the Face Dancers/Faceless Men, etc. Is Bloodraven extending his lifespan by merging with the weirwood inspired by Leto II extending his lifespan merging with the sandtrout?

The implication here being that, having liberally borrowed from the Dune Universe, he is heading for the same ending?  Leto II does what his father is unable to do and becomes God Emperor. If I recall right, Leto II also marries his twin sister? So Bran as God Emperor with Arya and Sansa as his sister wives?

[GrailKing]

[Happy Harpy]

2 hours ago, SimoneS said:

It occurs to me that another option for Sam is to become the Grand Maester and sit on the Small Council advising Jon and Dany. 

As for Heartsbane, I definitely see Sam giving it to Jorah to fight in the battles ahead. 

I'd love this because somehow I think  that Sam/Jorah is going to be a thing and they're going to work together again, moreover after not accepting Longclaw very honorably it would be great if he got himself some new Valyrian steel. [tinfoil] And as a Jorah/Lady Tarly crackshipper (party of one) the idea that Sam would give his abusive father's sword to a stepfather who has nothing but respect for him is quite pleasant. [/tinfoil]

One of my wishes for S8 is that Jorah stays in "I want my beloved to be happy" mode. If Tyrion is jealous of Jon, I expect Jorah to notice it as fast as he noticed that his Khaleesi was falling for the little shitburger. This storyline would have the potential to put Tyrion at odds with his two closest companions in his Essos trip -Jon being a moderating presence in Daenerys' decision making, Varys would favor him, I suppose.

BTW, I don't think it has been made clear if Bran is in the DP in person, or in a vision. It would have pretty different implications. I remember some fleaks announcing a big emotional scene between him and Arya, with Bran becoming Bran again, and I thought it was a pity it wasn't true. I'm sure that Bran will have a huge role to play but tbh, I'd bet on Davos on the Throne before I'd bet on him.

4 hours ago, Minneapple said:

The Mashable article says it's a 55-day battle condensed to one hour, so I assume they'll take breaks for battle strategy conversations and so forth. I don't think it will be a solid hour of KILLKILLKILLDESTROYDRACARYS.

I think there will be more POVs and characters moments, I hope so at least. Imo, they're going to evacuate the non-combattants at one point and it will create new stakes with a sense of suspense. I don't remember this configuration was ever used so far and I agree with @nikma, the battles weren't copy/paste so far (unless it was a plot point re: Casterly Roc).

If the WF battle is entirely in 8x03, I wouldn't be surprised if there was some significant time jump between 8x03 and 8x04.

[Eyes High]

9 hours ago, anamika said:

 Melange is the drug that underpins the Dune universe. And it does more than give visions. Comparing it to the Shade of the Evening and extrapolating from there that GRRM is taking his ending from Children of Dune is a stretch.

If that's what we are theorizing, then why not say that GRRM's ending will be like the Wheel of Time series since there are so many elements of those books in ASoIaF. Like prophecies and the unreliable nature of prophecies and how they can be misinterpreted. Azor Ahai and the Prince that was Promised and the Dragon Reborn. Starks warging direwolves and the Wolf brother in Wheel of Time. Why not make connections to LOTR and Jon/Aragorn as many have done. Fantasy series by their very nature have many things in common with other books in the genre.

The implication here being that, having liberally borrowed from the Dune Universe, he is heading for the same ending?  Leto II does what his father is unable to do and becomes God Emperor. If I recall right, Leto II also marries his twin sister? So Bran as God Emperor with Arya and Sansa as his sister wives?

Leto II does (platonically) marry his sister Ghanima, yes, although he outlives her by thousands of years.

I don’t know where GRRM is going with the ending, and honestly, before this betting stuff happened, I laughed at the idea of a King Bran endgame. Still, when fans scoff at the idea of a sterile, omniscient demigod king detached from his humanity, they should understand that it’s been done before and that it’s been done before in a work that seems to have influenced ASOIAF at least in small part, whether or not GRRM is willing to admit it. Now, he has copped to being strongly influenced in his choice of ending by LOTR, which points to a Jonerys throne endgame in my opinion, but the fact remains that God Emperor of Westeros isn’t the craziest thing ever.

There’s a post of mine way back where I said that I thought that the endgame ruler/rulers would be a member or members of the OG5. Bran would be my least likely pick on that list to rule, but he’s still technically on the list.

Edited December 5, 2018 by Eyes High

[anamika]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I don’t know where GRRM is going with the ending, and honestly, before this betting stuff happened, I laughed at the idea of a King Bran endgame. Still, when fans scoff at the idea of a sterile, omniscient demigod king detached from his humanity, they should understand that it’s been done before and that it’s been done before in a work that seems to have influenced ASOIAF at least in small part, whether or not GRRM is willing to admit it. Now, he has copped to being strongly influenced in his choice of ending by LOTR, which points to a Jonerys throne endgame in my opinion, but the fact remains that God Emperor of Westeros isn’t the craziest thing ever.

 

The reason why I am not a fan of omniscient Bran as God Emperor is that it's very foreign to the world of Westeros and the type of series this is. I agree with GRRM when he says there is very little hardcore magic in these books compared to typical fantasy. That's why the comparison between Spice and Shade of the evening makes no sense - one is the drug around which the books revolve while the other is a drug taken by some third rate side characters in Dany's Essos storyline who ultimately have no relevance to the larger plot line. Leto II becomes the God Emperor after an entire book that focuses on him and his sister, the politics surrounding them, people trying to kill them, use them etc.

I can see why it would make sense if Bran decides to become king to ensure that Westeros has a long period of stability while it is rebuild after the numerous civil wars - but that would pretty much be the exact ending of Children of Dune.  Would GRRM do that?

Bran does have a proper political arc in ACoK, and some would say he did an even better job at ruling WF than Jon and Dany. I had always envisioned him as the Lord of WF and the Stark in Winterfell at the end of the books, rebuilding WF and the Wall using magic like Bran the Builder from the age of heroes.  The things Ned said to his children in book one which is supposed to have a lot of foreshadowing is interesting:

Quote

"One day, Bran, you will be Robb's bannerman, holding a keep of your own for your brother and your king, and justice will fall to you" - Bran I, AGoT (Ned to Bran)

Quote

You,” Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, “will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon.” - Arya, AGoT (Ned to Arya)

On a side note, I do feel a bit sorry for Isaac. He joined the show along with Sophie and Maisie and was younger than them. When the show still had the books to adapt, Isaac had to play some tough scenes as Bran. I think it's not easy to act while not having freedom of movement, always sitting or being carried around. Bran had some great scenes after Theon takes WF - " Theon, did you always hate us" comes to mind. Or when he witnesses Rodrik's execution. It just sucks that no one ever mentions Isaac as one of the child actors who grew up on the show. David Nutter's AMA and recent interviews come to mind where he keeps mentioning Sophie and Maisie and how much they have grown into their roles in the final season. What about Isaac? 

Just for that, I do hope Bran and Isaac have a large and central role to play next season. Hopefully they quickly put an end to Robo Bran, give him a nice reunion with Jon and then he and Sam do some nice teamwork and figure out how to defeat the NK.

Edit: The NK speaks next season?

Quote

A weird situation happened  around 15:54 when the one guy says "Lucky he's doesn't have many lines... a mute hero." and Vladimir has this weird look in his eyes. (maybe me reading into it a bit too much)

They get back to talk about him being silent the whole thing. And Vlado says: "It's nice I don't have to speak, although I have talked to the director to have his last sentence when he's... (he goes silent for a good while, looks like he knows he fucked up)... 'I will be back' or something like that..."

From here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/a35q7d/anyone_speaking_slovakian_here_and_willing_to/

Edited December 5, 2018 by anamika

[Eyes High]

4 minutes ago, anamika said:

I can see why it would make sense if Bran decides to become king to ensure that Westeros has a long period of stability while it is rebuild after the numerous civil wars - but that would pretty much be the exact ending of Children of Dune.  Would GRRM do that?

Were it not for the betting, I would say never ever in a million years, but I'm stuck on why so many people not only seem to think Bran's going to be king but are also willing to place money on that assumption.

Quote

Bran does have a proper political arc in ACoK, and some would say he did an even better job at ruling WF than Jon and Dany. I had always envisioned him as the Lord of WF and the Stark in Winterfell at the end of the books, rebuilding WF and the Wall using magic like Bran the Builder from the age of heroes.

Bran being named, well, Brandon, the name of so many Stark kings, a name which is to the Starks what Aegon is to the Targaryens, seems to point to a possible future as Lord of Winterfell, I agree.

Not only is Jon's real name apparently Aegon (assuming ASOIAF and the show are the same on this point), but Vanessa Cole (WOTW) pointed out that Aegon III, who from what we know of him sounds like Jon in personality, was married to a Daenera (Velaryon, though). I guess GRRM thought naming Aegon's wife "Daenerys" was too obvious.

Not much to be discerned from the fates of Arya and Sansa's forerunners (Arya Flint and the other Sansa Stark). They both married Starks (an uncle in Sansa's case), Arya had children but not Sansa, and that's pretty much all we know about them. 

Quote

Just for that, I do hope Bran and Isaac have a large and central role to play next season. Hopefully they quickly put an end to Robo Bran, give him a nice reunion with Jon and then he and Sam do some nice teamwork and figure out how to defeat the NK.

Bran needs to do something big, I agree.

[Nightingale]

So scripts for all seasons are apparently available in a library in Los Angeles, and Vanity Fair wrote an article about the most interesting revelations:

- Jon is indeed in love with Dany, just in case you were a believer of that theory in which he's manipulating her feelings while being in love with Sansa (the craziest theory I've ever heard, and I've been in many fandoms in my time)

- Tyrion is also in love with Dany

- Dany is probably the "younger more beautiful queen" from Cersei's prophecy

- the White Walkers were supposed to have a language

- Benjen is Coldhands in the show

- Sansa isn't happy about Brienne being both the Stark sisters protector

And many other tidbits, it's an interesting read!

[Eyes High]

25 minutes ago, Nightingale said:

So scripts for all seasons are apparently available in a library in Los Angeles, and Vanity Fair wrote an article about the most interesting revelations:

- Jon is indeed in love with Dany, just in case you were a believer of that theory in which he's manipulating her feelings while being in love with Sansa (the craziest theory I've ever heard, and I've been in many fandoms in my time)

- Tyrion is also in love with Dany

- Dany is probably the "younger more beautiful queen" from Cersei's prophecy

- the White Walkers were supposed to have a language

- Benjen is Coldhands in the show

- Sansa isn't happy about Brienne being both the Stark sisters protector

And many other tidbits, it's an interesting read!

Yes, very! I love that D&D actually used the term "redshirt" in their 7x06 script. Ha!

Arya's fighting style as shown when she sparred with Brienne was intended to incorporate "flashes of the Hound's roughness." Awww.

The article links to this official GOT pronunciation guide for the names on the MakingGameofThrones blog, which I'd never seen before. The official pronunciation for Sansa is supposedly "SAHN-suh," but Benioff and Weiss say Sahnzuh or Sannzuh. Drives me up the wall. Pick a pronunciation and stick with it!

MakingGameofThrones posted their next Relive the Journey featurette, this time with Dany. Among the featured quotes is Dany saying that the dragons are the only children she'll ever have. Hmm. 

These Relive the Journey featurettes go up every Wednesday. This is the fourth (Tyrion, Arya, and Cersei were the first three). That leaves Jon, Bran and Sansa at the very least. I wonder if they intend to keep putting them up until the premiere, in which case they're going to need several more characters to fill the weeks. I guess they could throw some of the secondary characters in there to prolong things, or maybe this is just a stopgap measure until they're ready to start with the S8 BTS posts about costumes, props, etc. If that's the case, maybe they'll stop once they get through Bran, Jon and Sansa. 

Edited December 5, 2018 by Eyes High

[SimoneS]

13 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

I'd love this because somehow I think  that Sam/Jorah is going to be a thing and they're going to work together again, moreover after not accepting Longclaw very honorably it would be great if he got himself some new Valyrian steel. [tinfoil] And as a Jorah/Lady Tarly crackshipper (party of one) the idea that Sam would give his abusive father's sword to a stepfather who has nothing but respect for him is quite pleasant. [/tinfoil]

I definitely think that the show will revisit the Sam/Jorah bond. Maybe Jorah helps Sam get past any tension with Dany over the death of his father and brother.

I think there will be character moments in the midst of the battle episode 3. The characters will meet and plan their defense and escape if needed. I would expect most of the non-combatants to be hidding in the tunnels under Winterfell. After the battle in episode 3, maybe they flee to the Vale first where they link up with Robin and then they all head to King's Landing pursuing the NK. I agree that we might get a time jump between episode 3 and 4, maybe a vague couple of weeks as they travel south. They have a lot of people to move. The NK might be in a similar predicament attempting to move south with his remaining people. The dragon flying over King's Landing that Bran saw, might be his arrival on Viserion. 

The script note about snow falling on the Iron Throne is expected, but interesting. Winter will definitely blasting King's Landing by the time the NK gets there to destroy the capital. 

Edited December 5, 2018 by SimoneS

[WindyNights]

Wow, those scripts refer to Daenerys as her father's daughter. That's going to be controversial.

 

I'm glad they re-confirm that Tyrion is in love with Dany.

 

Davos is a pervert interested in Missandei, of course.

 

They're so mean to Kit's Jon. He's meant to look stupid.

[tangerine95]

I love how the described the Jon and Dany boat scene in the script.I think Emilia and Kit really sold it,it was their best scene together imo.

Not surprised Tyrion is in love with her but annoyed anyway.I wonder why they toned it down so much on the show when it's so clear in the scripts and outlines that leaked.I know Friki's leaks have some holes and don't match up with some other info but tbh I still think Tyrion will betray Jon and Dany in some way.I mean the love for her,the jealousy,being still attached to his family and fact that he thinks she's like her father all feel to me like they're leading to him doing something.

Sansa isn't coming off great in the script imo.Like I didn't want to believe Arya was right about her but there it is in the script.Whatever,I just hope that's over with and she doesn't go against her family again.

[SimoneS]

Another interesting note in the scripts is that "Inside Tyrion’s thoughts, the script links Daenerys to her pyromaniac dad, King Aerys Targaryen: “Their last, best hope is also her father’s daughter.” Tyrion loving Dany, but fearing that she might be her mad father's daughter does set up his betrayal as a real possibility next season. 

[SeanC]

On the broader Tyrion betrayal debate, nothing to come out so far has changed my belief that if that happens it will be, by far, the worst character arc of the entire series, just based on how he was depicted in prior seasons.  The audience backlash to that would/will be epic to see, possibly to the extent of retroactively harming the reputation of prior seasons.

[WindyNights]

2 minutes ago, SeanC said:

On the broader Tyrion betrayal debate, nothing to come out so far has changed my belief that if that happens it will be, by far, the worst character arc of the entire series, just based on how he was depicted in prior seasons.  The audience backlash to that would/will be epic to see, possibly to the extent of retroactively harming the reputation of prior seasons.

I think we may see that a lot for next season where a major character has to be re-configured to get close to GRRM's endgame. D & D had fun with the journey but now they have to course-correct at the end.

[nikma]

Again, I think leaks from Friki and Javi are right. Maybe they've got some details wrong, but Tyrion will die for treason. 

 

 

 

16 minutes ago, SeanC said:

On the broader Tyrion betrayal debate, nothing to come out so far has changed my belief that if that happens it will be, by far, the worst character arc of the entire series, just based on how he was depicted in prior seasons

I think this is really conservative and rigid perspective, to reject plot development even before it was shown. When it comes to writing of this story or any other story, my  belief is that anything can be written in a way that works, if writers do their job. And I mean anything. It's about the execution. I could even imagine for example, a compelling storyline where Sam betrays Jon or some other crazy thing.

[SimoneS]

23 minutes ago, SeanC said:

On the broader Tyrion betrayal debate, nothing to come out so far has changed my belief that if that happens it will be, by far, the worst character arc of the entire series, just based on how he was depicted in prior seasons.  The audience backlash to that would/will be epic to see, possibly to the extent of retroactively harming the reputation of prior seasons.

I completely agree! The only reason I think that it is a remote possibility is because of the things that Peter hinted at in his interviews, but if it actually happens, it would be the most insane plot development evah! It just seems so out there. If Tyrion is going to betray Jon or Dany, then D&D should have done a much better job laying the groundwork, giving a believable reason. And even then, I still cannot wrap my head around this possibility given the Tyrion we have seen on the screen. Maybe the set up in the books would have been more credible. I don't know. 

Edited December 5, 2018 by SimoneS

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, tangerine95 said:

Sansa isn't coming off great in the script imo.

Sansa has never come off particularly well in the show, in my opinion, so the revelation that she sent Brienne away because she was angry over having to share her shiny knightly toy with Arya isn't what I would call wildly out of character.

56 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Another interesting note in the scripts is that "Inside Tyrion’s thoughts, the script links Daenerys to her pyromaniac dad, King Aerys Targaryen: “Their last, best hope is also her father’s daughter.” Tyrion loving Dany, but fearing that she might be her mad father's daughter does set up his betrayal as a real possibility next season. 

It kind of has to be one or the other, though, doesn't it? "I'm betraying you because I'm madly in love with you and I think you're amazing and beautiful and wonderful and I can't deal with my unrequited feelings" is quite a different motivation from "I'm betraying you because I think you're dangerously cruel, ominously unstable, and have the capacity for unspeakable evil." 

46 minutes ago, SeanC said:

On the broader Tyrion betrayal debate, nothing to come out so far has changed my belief that if that happens it will be, by far, the worst character arc of the entire series, just based on how he was depicted in prior seasons.  The audience backlash to that would/will be epic to see, possibly to the extent of retroactively harming the reputation of prior seasons.

The backlash from Tyrion going full villain will kill the legacy of the show, TWOW, ADOS, Dunk and Egg, and any prequels. Book fans will get over it (as it wouldn't be all that surprising for Book Tyrion), but TV-only fans will never forgive him. 

Edited December 5, 2018 by Eyes High

[nikma]

And to be clear, I have no opinion on the groundwork for Tyrion's betrayal, until I see why he does it, but my question is what "better groundwork" at this point means? 

3 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

The backlash from Tyrion going full villain will kill the legacy of the show, TWOW, ADOS Dunk and Egg, and any prequels. I have no doubt.

Well, it's a good thing Tyrion won't go full villain then. 

[Eyes High]

7 minutes ago, nikma said:

Well, it's a good thing Tyrion won't go full villain then. 

Friki says he does. Guilty of treason, apparently tries to cover it up, falls to his knees during his trial because he can't deal with what he's done, deservedly executed, the works.

I will say that the last time Peter Dinklage talked about Tyrion being in love with Dany earlier this year, he said Tyrion loves Dany "or thinks he does." So there may be some wiggle room there for Tyrion in S8 to realize that he doesn't love Dany after all, for whatever reason...although that begs the question of why they would have Tyrion fall in love with Dany in the first place anyway if it wasn't going to serve any overarching plot purpose.

Edited December 5, 2018 by Eyes High

[tangerine95]

I think it could be both Tyrion is in love with Dany but also fears who he thinks she could become as a ruler.Like he's actually jealous and he uses his doubts about Dany as a justification why he betrayed her.Or is in love but his fear of her being a mad Queen is stronger.Or he could not do anything to Dany directly and does something against Jon which I feel like rn seems likely.Cause with Jon there's both the jealousy and the worry that he'll replace Tyrion as her most valuable advisor.

3 minutes ago, nikma said:

And to be clear, I have no opinion on the groundwork for Tyrion's betrayal, until I see why he does it, but my question is what "better groundwork" at this point means? 

Imo if they gave him some kind of darker arc after killing his father like he has in the books.Maybe not exactly raping prostitutes but something more than we got.In the show he drank a lot and quickly went straight to wanting to meet Dany and help her create a better world.

Also I think the show does position Tyrion as the moral compass or something.He's never really questioned even if he sounds hypocritical and biased like last season for example.

I don't think it will necessarily be a backlash that bad if they do it well because people love a twist on GoT and this one does have a lot of basis when you go back and rewatch.But idk,it has to be amazingly written to work.

[whateverdgaf]

40 minutes ago, nikma said:

Well, it's a good thing Tyrion won't go full villain then. 

I agree. I think the show has tried to do its best to show that in lots of (not all, but some) the conflict both sides have a point, and they're probably going to do the same with Tyrion. Of course, Tyrion fans or Stark fans and Daenerys fans have probably already decided whose in right and who they are going to support, but the show will provide ammunition for both. 

RE: Sansa being jealous about having to share Brienne with Arya, just wait until Jaime strolls into Winterfell. 

Edited December 5, 2018 by whateverdgaf

[ElizaD]

Is there anything in TV history that's a bigger shock than Tyrion being executed by the heroes? I can only think of mysteries like "who shot JR?" but this would feel very different. Book Tyrion is a much bigger asshole but TV Tyrion is not just one of the three most popular characters, the popular view of him is that he's a thoroughly decent man. Whether it's for jealousy, love of his family or fear of Mad Queen Dany, him turning traitor is going to be controversial at best. Those script details could support the betrayal theory, but it feels so damn strange after 7 seasons of Saint Tyrion. Even season 7 was only seen as a professional failure as Hand that led to a bit of talk about how he hasn't really had a great plot since season 4.

Honestly, if this does happen and the fandom doesn't hate it with the fire of a thousand suns, Dinklage will earn his Emmy.

[nikma]

29 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Friki says he does. Guilty of treason, apparently tries to cover it up, falls to his knees during his trial because he can't deal with what he's done, deservedly executed, the works.

That is not full villain and Friki never said that Tyrion will go full villain. "Guilty of treason"? I mean, yeah, but that doesn't mean that he is a villain.

[Eyes High]

6 minutes ago, nikma said:

That is not full villain and Friki never said that Tyrion will go full villain. "Guilty of treason"? I mean, yeah, but that doesn't mean that he is a villain.

If murdering a fuckton of innocent KL civilians because he can't get over being booed at his Season 4 trial, which seems to be Friki's version of events, is not "full villain," I don't know what is.

Edited December 5, 2018 by Eyes High

[nikma]

28 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

Imo if they gave him some kind of darker arc after killing his father like he has in the books.

But why he need darker arc to betray Daenerys or the Starks? He can do it for noble reasons. I don't know how it will happen, but I assume, the point is that Tyrion is not LF or Ramsay or Tywin. He is a good person, who will do something bad. Nuance™. Morally gray™. Human heart in conflict with itself ™.

 

32 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

Also I think the show does position Tyrion as the moral compass or something

Some fans in this fandom(and every other fandom) have this strange "discussion" with the writers where they analyze the show or the movie based on what they think the writers want to do.

But it is clear that in S6 is written as someone who is overconfident and even arrogant, someone who made a lot of mistakes in Meereen, and later a lot of mistakes in Westeros. So if D&D wanted Tyrion to be this perfect moral compass and perfect Hand, I think they would do things differently. 

[nikma]

3 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

If murdering a fuckton of innocent KL civilians because he can't get over being booed at his Season 4 trial, which seems to be Friki's version of events, is not "full villain," I don't know what is.

If. 

 

But you took Friki's words out of context here. He never said that Tyrion's treason is that he kills people in KL because they were mean to him. He said he will say the line "they deserved it", which can mean a lot of things depending on context. Maybe he will be annoyed by moralizing from Sansa and he will say something like "please, shut the fuck up, they deserved it, you know that better than most". Or something else. Context matters. 

[Eyes High]

8 minutes ago, nikma said:

If. 

But you took Friki's words out of context here. He never said that Tyrion's treason is that he kills people in KL because they were mean to him. He said he will say the line "they deserved it", which can mean a lot of things depending on context. Maybe he will be annoyed by moralizing from Sansa and he will say something like "please, shut the fuck up, they deserved it, you know that better than most". Or something else. Context matters. 

How could there possibly be context for murdering a bunch of innocent KL civilians and justifying it with "They deserved it"? There is no context in which that is anything but extremely villainous. It would be right up there with Cersei blowing up the Sept. Tyrion also apparently tries to cover up his crimes but gets caught, which is...not great either, frankly.

I have my doubts about whether Friki is correct with his Tyrion trial information, given the shifting goalposts and the number of times he has revised his story. Still, if we are assuming that he is right, then Tyrion is indeed going full villain in Season 8. There's really no way around it.

Edited December 5, 2018 by Eyes High

[nikma]

Not to offend anyone, but I feel like a lot of people have very narrow minded view of this plot development and they just don't   want to see any way in which it can work. Why tyrion needs to be dark character to betray anyone? Why he needs to be evil to be a traitor? I think it is more powerful to have good person do something bad.  The way I see this, he is not LF, Ramsay, Walder,.. It's not about good and evil, black and white, light and dark. 

I think Tyrion being executed by the heroes has the potential to be the biggest D&D's writing triumph.

It's GoT in a nutshell. Nuanced, morally gray, not black and white. 

I think that plot point has the potential to secure GoT's legacy as trope subverting™ story forever. Climax of Harry Potter is battle between Harry and Voldemort. Climax of LOTR is battle against Sauron. Climax of Star Wars is death of evil Empire.

And climax of GoT? Something morally complex and different and brave™. So it is not about the Night King, or Cersei, it's about demons within, about human heart in conflict with itself ™.

Be open minded people. This thing could be the best plot twist ever. 

Edited December 5, 2018 by nikma

[Eyes High]

6 minutes ago, nikma said:

Not to offend anyone, but I feel like a lot of people have very narrow minded view of this plot development and they just don't   want to see any way in which it can work. Why tyrion need to be dark character to betray anyone? Why he needs to be evil to be a traitor? The way I see this, he is not LF, Ramsay, Walder,.. 

 

But you're acting as if Friki hasn't said what Tyrion does, and if Friki can be believed, we do know, and it is indeed some Walder-level shit: murdering a bunch of innocent people out of pettiness. And apparently there's other stuff Tyrion is tried for as well according to Friki, including betraying the Starks, which is some LF-level shit.

So you can't have it both ways. Either Friki is right about Tyrion's trial and Tyrion does go full villain in terrible, series legacy-destroying fashion, or Friki is wrong, in which case there is no Tyrion betrayal at all and there's nothing to talk about. 

We're not talking about some artful, carefully-executed, Brave plot twist if Friki is right. We are talking about something truly terrible, not only destroying Tyrion's character but retroactively ruining the series.

Edited December 5, 2018 by Eyes High

[nikma]

11 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

How could there possibly be context for murdering a bunch of innocent civilians and justifying it with "They deserved it"?

The context I just provided. But I don't want to waste my time creating scenarios for this, since you just don't want this to work. Wait and see in 5 months so we will judge if D&D did good job.

But it is not true that Tyrion's betrayal can't work. If I was a writer of this show (and I'm a writer by the way), I know how I would to it. But will D&D do the good job? I don't know. But they have the groundwork to create something great. It's up to them. 

4 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

But you're acting as if Friki hasn't said what Tyrion does, and if Friki can be believed, we do know, and it is indeed some Walder-level shit: murdering a bunch of innocent people out of pettiness. And apparently there's other stuff Tyrion is tried for as well according to Friki, including betraying the Starks, which is some LF-level shit.

Give me a quote where Friki said that. 

Edited December 5, 2018 by nikma

[OhOkayWhat]

Or the betrayal exists and Friki is wrong (about some details)

[nikma]

This is what Friki said :

Quote

Tyrion betrays the Starks. That is the info I got. I don’t know the details on that. I have told every detail I know

So he said he doesn't know the details, and you are acting like he provided every information we need to understand this plot development. 

[nikma]

Friki:

 

Quote

 Tyrion will see the city full of dead bodies. Tyrion looks guilty and as if he is asking himself what he’s done

 

Does this sounds like Tyrion going full villain? No. 

[whateverdgaf]

Tyrion might have used the people of KL as bait for White Walkers perhaps, or something like that? 'They deserved it' may not be the actual reason, but I could be justification and distraught and guilt ridden Tyrion offers up in an emotional outburst. I think to an extent Tyrion needs to feel he is doing the right thing. 

[OhOkayWhat]

4 minutes ago, nikma said:

Friki:

 

 

Does this sounds like Tyrion going full villain? No. 

Maybe Tyrion feels guilty because he supported a Queen who (involuntary) made a big mistake

Edited December 5, 2018 by OhOkayWhat

[nikma]

More quotes from Friki:

Quote

Friki says that indeed the treason will be family motivated that at one key moment he choses his family before anything else. He will want to preserve the Lannister legacy.

Quote

Why then would Tyrion be guilty for it? Because somehow he will be the one who prevents the people from leaving the city as they will be locked in. That is important to make a bit of sense: dragon will attack and set KL on fire and the people will not be able to escape from it because the gates will be locked by Tyrion’s command. Technically their deaths will be on Tyrion’s hand but not the fire itself.

 

So nothing here says that Tyrion will be the villain.

[screamin]

5 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Were it not for the betting, I would say never ever in a million years, but I'm stuck on why so many people not only seem to think Bran's going to be king but are also willing to place money on that assumption.

Could be that they have genuine information from a person they know is an insider and therefore think they can make a killing by betting on a sure thing - and others followed the trend of betting based on that assumption.  Or it could be that the original bettors got fake information from a person they know is an insider and therefore think they can make a killing by betting on a sure thing - while the insider is deliberately spreading a false rumor out of self-importance, or at the behest of the studio, or to drive up the odds on the character they KNOW is actually going to be ruler, in order to make their eventual bet on a sure thing more lucrative. No way we can know.

While I don't see any plot-based reason why Bran couldn't be king, it is terribly unsatisfying to me because there is no character-based reason why he should. Ambitions expressed five books ago? He hasn't been that kid for a long, long, time. And without those ambitions, why would he want to declare himself King when he could be a supreme Master of Whispers for one of his more socially appropriate siblings? Nor would Westeros really want to be ruled by a creepy kid who can't walk, no matter how omniscient he is. And unlike Leto in Dune, Bran is far from invulnerable. There's not a lot he can do if enough of Westeros decides they're through with him and comes in force to depose him, even if he sees them coming.

Edited December 5, 2018 by screamin

[nikma]

So when we summarize what Friki and Javi said about Tyrion's treason we get this:

1) Betrays the Starks

2) Does it for the Lannisters

3) He will cause the death of a lot of people in KL because the gates will be locked on his command

4) He feels really bad about this at the end

So everything I said stands. There is potential here to create great moment, that will secure GoT's legacy. And Tyrion not being dark character in the show is the precise reason why this plot twist could be great. 

But I'm not D&D's advocate. I'm just saying that they have groundwork to create something great.

Will they do it? We will see. Just be open minded for now. No need for nagativity. 

[WindyNights]

22 minutes ago, screamin said:

Could be that they have genuine information from a person they know is an insider and therefore think they can make a killing by betting on a sure thing - and others followed the trend of betting based on that assumption.  Or it could be that the original bettors got fake information from a person they know is an insider and therefore think they can make a killing by betting on a sure thing - while the insider is deliberately spreading a false rumor out of self-importance, or at the behest of the studio, or to drive up the odds on the character they KNOW is actually going to be ruler, in order to make their eventual bet on a sure thing more lucrative. No way we can know.

While I don't see any plot-based reason why Bran couldn't be king, it is terribly unsatisfying to me because there is no character-based reason why he should. Ambitions expressed five books ago? He hasn't been that kid for a long, long, time. And without those ambitions, why would he want to declare himself King when he could be a supreme Master of Whispers for one of his more socially appropriate siblings? Nor would Westeros really want to be ruled by a creepy kid who can't walk, no matter how omniscient he is. And unlike Leto in Dune, Bran is far from invulnerable. There's not a lot he can do if enough of Westeros decides they're through with him and comes in force to depose him, even if he sees them coming.

There's a lot he could. He can control people after all. Hence "Hold the Door" or he could force people to commit suicide.

He can even switch to another body if someone succeeds in killing him.

9 minutes ago, nikma said:

So when we summarize what Friki and Javi said about Tyrion's treason we get this:

1) Betrays the Starks

2) Does it for the Lannisters

3) He will cause the death of a lot of people in KL because the gates will be locked on his command

4) He feels really bad about this at the end

So everything I said stands. There is potential here to create great moment, that will secure GoT's legacy. And Tyrion not being dark character in the show is the precise reason why this plot twist could be great. 

But I'm not D&D's advocate. I'm just saying that they have groundwork to create something great.

Will they do it? We will see. Just be open minded for now. No need for nagativity. 

It's all dependent on the execution, yeah, but I have little faith on how D & D execute things. 

[screamin]

That whole "they deserved it" line to me seems to hark back to Book Tyrion's facile view that slaves kind of deserved to be slaves because if they didn't rebel or die trying they couldn't really have cared about freedom to begin with - which dismisses the whole issue with your family and loved ones suffering for your rebellion, and illustrates the fundamental doucheness of Book Tyrion's character. I agree that Show Tyrion delivering a Book Tyrion-like line would really stand out oddly, since they've drawn him so much nicer on the show.

Still, I see how they might be able to sell it on the show. Say Tyrion decides to lock KL's gates and have the place blown up because the NK has infiltrated and he decides the innocents still inside are a lost cause, since the NK will soon kill them anyway and the priority is killing the NK and his army before he gets out with the huge zombified population of KL as new recruits. I could see even Show Tyrion trying to alleviate his own guilt afterwards by saying that it was KL's own fault for not overthrowing Cersei and letting Dany take the city, who would never have let the NK come so far. It would be a wrong, horrid thing to say, but human and understandable under the circumstances.

[Happy Harpy]

Friki didn't give details, but he made like twenty videos to elaborate on those details he doesn't have.

Tyrion falling to his knees is so reminiscent of Baelish's last moments. Actually, with the Tyrion in love with Daenerys element, it wouldn't be the only parallel. Betraying the Starks because one of them is taking the woman he unrequitedly loves from him. Not caring about causing chaos -scheming with the AOTD/NK attacks- because of his personal obsession. Not owning up to what he did, but getting sneaky and then busted. I can see Tyrion go, but go like LF? Hmm. Had Tyrion and LF gotten parallel character arcs over the whole show like Jon and Dany did, I could find some sense here, but it wasn't the case.

Moreover, it's pretty difficult to reconcile Tyrion walking on the battlefield in 7x05, realizing what war truly meant, what burning people concretely meant, and Tyrion "realizing what he did" after burning KL and its civilians. He already knows. There's a contradiction here and I never found such a big one in a character arc, so far.

Imo, if Tyrion is going to betray and the writers want the audience to turn against him, they'll find a way. See Shireen vs Tommen. Some (many?) were already dismayed or annoyed after S7 and it can be exploited...he isn't as popular as he used to be, imo. D&D need(ed) to tread carefully though, because Tyrion will have to be guilty AF or it will leave an all bitter no sweet absolutely unsatisfying taste in the audience's mouth, while his actions will have to fit his show persona or the audience won't accept it and it won't be satisfying (in the sense of "making sense") either.

Edited December 5, 2018 by Happy Harpy

[Eyes High]

6 minutes ago, nikma said:

So when we summarize what Friki and Javi said about Tyrion's treason we get this:

1) Betrays the Starks

2) Does it for the Lannisters

3) He will cause the death of a lot of people in KL because the gates will be locked on his command

4) He feels really bad about this at the endSo everything I said stands. There is potential here to create great moment, that will secure GoT's legacy.

You're missing him saying "They deserved it." That's an important element. I'm not going to get much further into it because even when I read this summary of Friki's leaks a lot of problems jump out. (How does he betray the Starks but not Dany by locking the gates? Why isn't everyone mad at Dany for burning the people as opposed to Tyrion for locking the gates? How does locking the gates help the Lannisters? And so on.)

I will say that in S8 Leakerbowl, BSB is racking up the number of claims they've been proven correct about, most recently their claim several months ago that Episode 3 would be entirely devoted to Winterfell, which has now been confirmed by Vladimir Furdik. BSB has said that there is no Tyrion trial, while not ruling out a Tyrion betrayal altogether. So we'll see where this goes.

2 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

Tyrion falling to his knees is so reminiscent of Baelish's last moments. Actually, with the Tyrion in love with Daenerys element, it wouldn't be the only parallel. Betraying the Starks because one of them is taking the woman he unrequitedly loves from him. Not caring about causing chaos -scheming with the AOTD/NK attacks- because of his personal obsession. Not owning up to what he did, but getting sneaky and then busted.

Yeah, complete with Bran uttering a line that the perp previously said to prove that the jig is up (except that the line Bran supposedly uses is one Tyrion never said in the show). Seems awfully similar.

[screamin]

13 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

There's a lot he could. He can control people after all. Hence "Hold the Door" or he could force people to commit suicide.

The only person he's really controlled against his will has been poor Hodor, who seems to have been especially vulnerable to him. And even he required a 'breaking-in' period, during which he was unable to complain or ask for help from anyone around him - which is unlikely to be the case with anyone else Bran tries to possess. Nor do I think we have seen that Bran or the Raven could possess people over long distances by weirless.

 And I don't think "Hold the Door" was actually a moment of Bran physically controlling Hodor's actions. If he's in control of Hodor himself, why would he be screaming at HIMSELF to "hold the door"? He'd just do it. I think it was just a moment of poor, heroic, obedient  Hodor striving to his last moment to help his friends as they tell him. To believe it's just Bran using Hodor up as his human padlock diminishes Hodor's sacrifice.

Besides, if Bran's powers really make him invulnerable to attack, how did the Three Eyed Raven get overthrown? I think it was spelled out that the world is too vast for Bran to be aware of it all.

Edited December 5, 2018 by screamin

[nikma]

2 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

How does he betray the Starks but not Dany by locking the gates?

I think these are two separate moments. Betraying the Starks and locking the gates.

 

2 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Why isn't everyone mad at Dany for burning the people

 

But it is the NK who is burning the people? 

 

5 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

How does locking the gates help the Lannisters?

Again, two separate moments.

 

3 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I will say that in S8 Leakerbowl, BSB is racking up the number of claims they've been proven correct about, most recently their claim several months ago that Episode 3 would be entirely devoted to Winterfell

When you know they want to create the biggest battle in history of TV, it wasn't that hard to guess that E3 will be only about WF. I thought that before any leak. And it's not like there are 5 other storylines. It's either WF or KL. 

12 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

Moreover, it's pretty difficult to reconcile Tyrion walking on the battlefield in 7x05, realizing what war truly meant, what burning people concretely meant, and Tyrion "realizing what he did" after burning KL and its civilians. He already knows

Yes, it is pretty difficult, when you don't know context and motivation. And I think Tyrion walking on the battlefield in 7x05, could be foreshadowing for 8x06. D&D love parallels.