Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[screamin]

5 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

It was both Jon AND Tyrion's discoragement that swayed her from attacking the Red Keep directly. 

Both Jon and Tyrion are hoping Dany is different. Not more of the same.

This isnt how one writes a literal sabatoge plot because Dany does need to be stopped from giving in to her worst tendencies. 

But I could see her seeing it as "sabotage" if she turns on everyone in a state of paranoia.

Granted, Jon spoke up against burning the Red Keep and probably lots of KL along with it. But I doubt he'd condone Tyrion's actual reasons for advising Dany to hold off on a KL attack, as he explained them to Cersei.

Tyrion's "sabotage" resulted in the loss of two powerful allies in Dorne and Highgarden (I especially miss the Queen of Thorns). I don't think it takes "paranoia" to see this as serious damage Tyrion inflicted on Dany's cause to benefit his family's conflicting interests. If that only counts as trifling "sabotage," imagine what actual sabotage without quotation marks would do?

Myself, I expect Tyrion to decide to get Jon killed so pregnant Dany can reign alone. If Dany found out about both of these betrayals of his (the first can be told by a captured Cersei in a last parting shot to drag Tyrion down with her, or by Qyburn in an attempt to save his skin by telling all he knows) I don't think dire punishment from Dany would be due to paranoia; any monarch treated that way would react severely.

[Eyes High]

24 minutes ago, screamin said:

Granted, Jon spoke up against burning the Red Keep and probably lots of KL along with it. But I doubt he'd condone Tyrion's actual reasons for advising Dany to hold off on a KL attack, as he explained them to Cersei.

Tyrion's "sabotage" resulted in the loss of two powerful allies in Dorne and Highgarden (I especially miss the Queen of Thorns). I don't think it takes "paranoia" to see this as serious damage Tyrion inflicted on Dany's cause to benefit his family's conflicting interests. If that only counts as trifling "sabotage," imagine what actual sabotage without quotation marks would do?

To be fair, incompetence is not the same thing as deliberate sabotage. Robb didn't sabotage the Stark cause and his family by executing Karstark and marrying Talisa, he just made two huge mistakes, but he couldn't have done more to ruin things for the Starks than if he had done it deliberately.

And a lot of characters in the show, regardless of level of intelligence and competence, make bad judgment calls that ruin things for the people they love, so I hesitate to chalk Tyrion's bumbling in S7 up to deliberate sabotage. If it were, as I said, that would be awesome.

However, it's important to keep in mind that it's not as if Tyrion for all his intelligence has a great track record with making good decisions before meeting Dany: calling out Catelyn in public when she's trying to travel incognito and forcing a confrontation, bringing Shae to KL against his father's explicit instructions, sending Myrcella to Dorne, repeatedly humiliating and antagonizing the king, agreeing to marry Sansa, wandering off by himself at a brothel when he's a wanted man, etc. So it's entirely possible that Tyrion's incompetence as Dany's Hand is just that, incompetence.

Leaving aside the question of sabotage, it is possible that Tyrion's problems as a Hand are explained by his conflicted feelings about Dany and his family. He doesn't want to endanger Dany (being "smitten" with her), so he balks at putting her in harm's way. He doesn't want his family to be harmed, so he balks at putting them in harm's way. Thus the half-measures in Season 7 that get him into so much trouble. There's a big difference between Tyrion's turmoil subconsciously affecting his performance as Dany's Hand and consciously setting out to fuck Dany over, and I don't think we can tell yet which is the correct analysis for his actions in S7. It may all be explained as part of an impressive long con in S8, and it may be explained as simple incompetence complicated by inner strife over his Lannister issues (which will be apparently explored in depth in S8, according to Bryan Cogman!). We don't know yet.

Edited November 23, 2018 by Eyes High

[Smad]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Yes and no. He's like Tywin in that everything boils down to his family for him and that he doesn't turn his back on them lightly. However, I think that unlike Tywin, it comes from a place of loving his family. Tywin never particularly cared about the wellbeing or love of his children, except insofar as it affected the prestige of the family. Tyrion desperately wants everyone to love him. Even his demand for Casterly Rock after Blackwater was just begging for acknowledgment from his father.

That's why I specifically mentioned those Tyrion loved. Whereas Tywin did everything for family for the sake of a legacy, not for love. That's where they are different.

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

On the other hand, Friki said that Tyrion betrays the Starks, and that kind of betrayal wouldn't go back further than S7. I guess his "betrayal" in S7 would be proposing the wight hunt, knowing Jon would be dumb enough to sign up for it? And possibly whatever he plotted with Cersei off-screen during their meeting.

I don't see how the wight hunt plays into that. For one, many other men went on it so it wasn't specifically about Jon. And two, not sure how Tyrion knows all that much about the Stark relationships, especially since Jon keeps saying 'I'm not a Stark'. My guess would be that the betrayal would relate to Sansa or Arya, most likely the former.

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I'd be really impressed if TV Tyrion managed to pull off that kind of long con and D&D wrote it in such a way as to make sense. On the other hand, NCW did say that there is a reveal in S8 that he compared to the killer being revealed in a mystery, and everything making sense and tying together. He could be referring to Tyrion's betrayal being revealed, going back perhaps to the moment Tyrion met Dany and heard her speech about breaking the wheel. It would certainly explain Tyrion's apparent tactical blunders in S7 and some of his decisions (getting Dany to send Daario away, for example). On the other hand, Friki said that Tyrion betrays the Starks, and that kind of betrayal wouldn't go back further than S7. I guess his "betrayal" in S7 would be proposing the wight hunt, knowing Jon would be dumb enough to sign up for it? And possibly whatever he plotted with Cersei off-screen during their meeting.

Maybe I'm alone in this, but TV Tyrion having a grand villain reveal where it's revealed that unbeknownst to the audience (distinguishing it from Littlefinger's execution in 7x07) that Tyrion has been plotting against Dany/the Starks/whomever all along would be kind of awesome. I mean, shocking and sad or whatever, but also...awesome. If it's less that and more "You betrayed us when you refused to let KL people escape because they laughed at you at your trial!" that would be...not awesome.

I would certainly be down for that. Any explanation as to the suck that was Tyrion post S4 would be fine with me. Even if D&D have to pull that out of their asses as usual and half-ass the whole turnabout itself. But it would be more believable than some of the nonsense they have pulled since S5.

[anamika]

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

The big betrayal of the Starks (since Friki says he betrays the Starks) is believed to be Tyrion helping set up the Lannister attack on Winterfell, but I thought that was an AOTD-only affair, so I'm not sure what other kind of betrayal we're looking at. Maybe he hands Sansa over to Cersei (or tries to). He always liked Sansa somewhat, but maybe she rejects him and he doesn't take it well. Peter Dinklage did say that Tyrion would be facing some things about himself that he really didn't want to face. 

This is where the confusion with Friki's leaks comes in. Friki insists that Tyrion betrays the Starks and Javi says that Tyrion walks around a destroyed and burned KL and asks 'What have I done' or 'they deserved it' or something like that. Friki and Javi speculated something like Tyrion closing off the gates of KL and burning the people there to prevent them from becoming wights etc. Why would any of his actions in KL be a betrayal of the Starks?

Unless, by the time the finale comes around, the Starks are in control of KL and not Dany.

[SimoneS]

15 minutes ago, anamika said:

This is where the confusion with Friki's leaks comes in. Friki insists that Tyrion betrays the Starks and Javi says that Tyrion walks around a destroyed and burned KL and asks 'What have I done' or 'they deserved it' or something like that. Friki and Javi speculated something like Tyrion closing off the gates of KL and burning the people there to prevent them from becoming wights etc. Why would any of his actions in KL be a betrayal of the Starks?

Unless, by the time the finale comes around, the Starks are in control of KL and not Dany.

Since I now believe that Tyrion does "something" bad, a believable scenario for me would be if Tyrion disobeys a direct order from Jon/Dany because he thinks that it is for the best, causing them to have to put him on trial. However, I remember that odd scene between Tyrion and Varys last season after Dany burnt the Tarlys. They were suddenly squeamish about death and destruction as if that isn't what happens in wars. Maybe Tyrion concludes that Dany is a threat when she refuses to listen to his advice and does something that puts the noncombatant Starks or Missandei in harms way to reign in Dany.

[GrailKing]

5 hours ago, Eyes High said:

On the other hand, Friki said that Tyrion betrays the Starks, and that kind of betrayal wouldn't go back further than S7. I guess his "betrayal" in S7 would be proposing the wight hunt, knowing Jon would be dumb enough to sign up for it? And possibly whatever he plotted with Cersei off-screen during their meeting.

 

5 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Maybe I'm alone in this, but TV Tyrion having a grand villain reveal where it's revealed that unbeknownst to the audience (distinguishing it from Littlefinger's execution in 7x07) that Tyrion has been plotting against Dany/the Starks/whomever all along would be kind of awesome. I mean, shocking and sad or whatever, but also...awesome. If it's less that and more "You betrayed us when you refused to let KL people escape because they laughed at you at your trial!" that would be...not awesome.

The big betrayal of the Starks (since Friki says he betrays the Starks) is believed to be Tyrion helping set up the Lannister attack on Winterfell, but I thought that was an AOTD-only affair, so I'm not sure what other kind of betrayal we're looking at. Maybe he hands Sansa over to Cersei (or tries to). He always liked Sansa somewhat, but maybe she rejects him and he doesn't take it well. Peter Dinklage did say that Tyrion would be facing some things about himself that he really didn't want to face. 

I believe Tyrion started when he first met Danny, not necessarily to betray her outright, but to set himself up to be her main adviser, he meets her with Jorah, he speaks up for Jorah, then he states, but you can't have him by your side ( the one guy who was truly giving her good advice ) Jorah's face was like WTF.

The AOTD affair was on one hand somewhat needed they needed proof they exist, not really a Kodak moment available in Westeros . I think when Danny decided to listen to Jon more, Tyrion was starting to get a wee jealous. Then the ship bonding.

We don't know what went on behind the door between Cersei and Tyrion, we do know in show Cersei believes Sansa is hers, we do know Tyrion cares for children, his niece and nephews, we know he loves Jaime over Cersei, and we know that he now knows Cersei is pregnant with Jaime's (?) baby along with what he saw at the field of fire it dawned on him his house could be wiped out.

Danny , Jon and company head North. 

My thinking is he goes to engage Sansa maybe try to rekindle something, but Sansa shuts him down and he resents it ( like in the books about her stiff knees ) and he decides to do something that gets Sansa kidnapped ( plenty of foreshadowing in show and books ) whether by intent or not that would be a betrayal to the Starks, especially because both Jon and Sansa have decent opinions of him.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

This is where the confusion with Friki's leaks comes in. Friki insists that Tyrion betrays the Starks and Javi says that Tyrion walks around a destroyed and burned KL and asks 'What have I done' or 'they deserved it' or something like that. Friki and Javi speculated something like Tyrion closing off the gates of KL and burning the people there to prevent them from becoming wights etc. Why would any of his actions in KL be a betrayal of the Starks?

Unless, by the time the finale comes around, the Starks are in control of KL and not Dany.

A Time for Wolves!

I was someone who denounced Friki as a fake back when you pointed out that it made sense, and now I’m fully supporting Friki while you point out that his info has some issues. 

It could be that Friki was the target of a leak trap. If HBO wanted to fake someone out, it would be him. On the other hand, he presumably has connections in Spain, so if anyone in the fan community other than Javi knows the truth of what was filmed in Seville, it would be him. On the other other hand, Lads’ leaks came out of nowhere from some anonymous guy while Friki had no specific leaks until just before S7 aired. And of course, as @nikma has often reminded me it would be stupid to write Friki off because I didn’t personally like what he had to say, which is always good advice (even if I wasn't in much of a mood to hear it at the time and acted like an asshole about it, as you'll all recall).

I speculated way back in May that the Seville scene was an epilogue scene based on various things, although I was very (very) wrong about what was happening in the scene itself, so Friki saying it’s a trial doesn’t surprise me. It’s obviously an important scene, and an endgame scene, and the final third trial of Tyrion Lannister, one where he is actually being tried for crimes he committed for once, would fit the bill.

We know that the Seville scene took five days to film, which isn’t very long for S8 because they said everything took longer this year to film. No frills that we know about other than a ton of fake snow. It doesn’t sound like an action scene, or even a Daznak Pit scene where there are a lot of moving parts, since there wasn’t enough time to film something like that. It sure sounds like a scene, and not a terribly long scene, either, where a bunch of characters are standing around talking, and a trial would fit the bill. The rumours before filming were that the Seville scene would be one of the last scenes of the show filmed, which would line up with what Friki said about the scene and not BoatsexBaby, who claimed that the scene was from the first half of 8x06.

One thing I don’t get, though, is why they were desperate to return to the Dragonpit to film if all they wanted to film was Tyrion’s trial. It’s just a bunch of people standing around talking. They could film that anywhere, right? Why go all the way to Seville, particularly given the sensitive nature of the scene? It would make more sense to film it on a secure soundstage in Belfast they can lock down. It doesn’t make a lot of sense. 

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My thinking is he goes to engage Sansa maybe try to rekindle something, but Sansa shuts him down and he resents it ( like in the books about her stiff knees ) and he decides to do something that gets Sansa kidnapped ( plenty of foreshadowing in show and books ) whether by intent or not that would be a betrayal to the Starks, especially because both Jon and Sansa have decent opinions of him.

Tyrion revealing his evil colours by doing something hideously nefarious to Sansa when they reunite from which she has to be rescued by Sandor/Jon/Willas/Pod/ Gendry/Margaery/whoever has always been a fantasy for certain segments of the fandom, and certainly TV Tyrion has never showed Sansa the slightest bitterness or ill will...but if Tyrion, feeling rejected by Dany, surpassed by Jon, useless, purposeless, and abandoned by everyone, makes an ill-advised pass at Sansa and she shuts him down in the coldest possible terms (and post-traumatic TV Sansa is not one to mince words), and if Tyrion in despair, anguish and self-hatred makes one really stupid impulsive decision to destroy his relationship with the Starks and Sansa suffers as a result...? I dunno, it might work. Possibly. It would be less about Tyrion being angry and bitter and more about Tyrion being depressed and self-destructive, and since the show has focused much more on the latter than the former in terms of Tyrion's actions, it wouldn't be wildly out of character.

I think Peter Dinklage (Tyrion will have to face some things about himself he didn't want to face) and Bryan Cogman (Tyrion will explore his Lannister family issues in greater depth in S8, or words to that effect) have both hinted at Tyrion having some sort of existential crisis, and given everything going on in his "professional" life (failed as Hand, surpassed by Jon, lost Dany's confidence, not sure how he's going to deal with the ramifications of Jon and Dany's relationship) and his "personal" life (ex-wife tension and awkwardness, unrequited crush on Dany, hostile Starks, hostile Northern lords, Jaime problems, Lannister angst, end of the world angst), I'd be really, really surprised if he didn't have some sort of meltdown at some point.

Edited November 24, 2018 by Eyes High

[GrailKing]

34 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

A Time for Wolves!

I was someone who denounced Friki as a fake back when you pointed out that it made sense, and now I’m fully supporting Friki while you point out that his info has some issues. 

It could be that Friki was the target of a leak trap. If HBO wanted to fake someone out, it would be him. On the other hand, he presumably has connections in Spain, so if anyone in the fan community other than Javi knows the truth of what was filmed in Seville, it would be him. On the other other hand, Lads’ leaks came out of nowhere from some anonymous guy while Friki had no specific leaks until just before S7 aired. And of course, as @nikma has often reminded me it would be stupid to write Friki off because I didn’t personally like what he had to say, which is always good advice (even if I wasn't in much of a mood to hear it at the time and acted like an asshole about it, as you'll all recall).

I speculated way back in May that the Seville scene was an epilogue scene based on various things, although I was very (very) wrong about what was happening in the scene itself, so Friki saying it’s a trial doesn’t surprise me. It’s obviously an important scene, and an endgame scene, and the final third trial of Tyrion Lannister, one where he is actually being tried for crimes he committed for once, would fit the bill.

We know that the Seville scene took five days to film, which isn’t very long for S8 because they said everything took longer this year to film. No frills that we know about other than a ton of fake snow. It doesn’t sound like an action scene, or even a Daznak Pit scene where there are a lot of moving parts, since there wasn’t enough time to film something like that. It sure sounds like a scene, and not a terribly long scene, either, where a bunch of characters are standing around talking, and a trial would fit the bill. The rumours before filming were that the Seville scene would be one of the last scenes of the show filmed, which would line up with what Friki said about the scene and not BoatsexBaby, who claimed that the scene was from the first half of 8x06.

One thing I don’t get, though, is why they were desperate to return to the Dragonpit to film if all they wanted to film was Tyrion’s trial. It’s just a bunch of people standing around talking. They could film that anywhere, right? Why go all the way to Seville, particularly given the sensitive nature of the scene? It would make more sense to film it on a secure soundstage in Belfast they can lock down. It doesn’t make a lot of sense. 

Tyrion revealing his evil colours by doing something hideously nefarious to Sansa when they reunite from which she has to be rescued by Sandor/Jon/Willas/Pod/ Gendry/Margaery/whoever has always been a fantasy for certain segments of the fandom, and certainly TV Tyrion has never showed Sansa the slightest bitterness or ill will...but if Tyrion, feeling rejected by Dany, surpassed by Jon, useless, purposeless, and abandoned by everyone, makes an ill-advised pass at Sansa and she shuts him down in the coldest possible terms (and post-traumatic TV Sansa is not one to mince words), and if Tyrion in despair, anguish and self-hatred makes one really stupid impulsive decision to destroy his relationship with the Starks and Sansa suffers as a result...? I dunno, it might work. Possibly. It would be less about Tyrion being angry and bitter and more about Tyrion being depressed and self-destructive, and since the show has focused much more on the latter than the former in terms of Tyrion's actions, it wouldn't be wildly out of character.

Friki did say Sansa is the most wanted or sought after female now, so maybe Tyrion still thinks she's his ?

They have to bring show Tyrion into his book counter part; but they made him into such a saint, can't wait to see this play out.

[anamika]

13 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I was someone who denounced Friki as a fake back when you pointed out that it made sense, and now I’m fully supporting Friki while you point out that his info has some issues. 

Ha! It's always good to analyse any information from all sides and reassess when new information comes in! 

The main issue I had with Friki's leaks was Joe Dempsie saying that he filmed there and became emotional and had lines of dialogue and several other actors wrapped with him etc. But then that could just be him filming the documentary like Sophie may have done on her last day on the Belfast set at Moneyglass. I am also a bit baffled by the set of characters at Friki's trial. 

Friki may very well be right. I agree with this:

22 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

We know that the Seville scene took five days to film, which isn’t very long for S8 because they said everything took longer this year to film. No frills that we know about other than a ton of fake snow. It doesn’t sound like an action scene, or even a Daznak Pit scene where there are a lot of moving parts, since there wasn’t enough time to film something like that. It sure sounds like a scene, and not a terribly long scene, either, where a bunch of characters are standing around talking, and a trial would fit the bill. The rumours before filming were that the Seville scene would be one of the last scenes filmed, which would line up with what Friki said about the scene.

And we also have Sophie saying that it was long, sweaty and boring to shoot - that tells me that it was just actors sitting/standing around talking in their heavy costumes rather than an action heavy scene with people/characters running around etc. I remember Kit complaining about how hot and heavy his costume was in the DVD commentary for last season's finale.

27 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

One thing I don’t get is why they were desperate to return to the Dragonpit to film if all they wanted to film was Tyrion’s trial. It’s just a bunch of people standing around talking. They could film that anywhere, right? Why go all the way to Seville, particularly given the sensitive nature of the scene? It would make more sense to film it on a secure soundstage in Belfast they can lock down. It doesn’t make a lot of sense. 

It could just be nostalgia. The cast and crew seem to have had a fun time there last year and maybe they wanted to be there one last time to say farewell to the location and the show. It's an impressive location.

Though, if the Starks are in control of KL, it makes no sense to have Tyrion's trial in a place that was important to the Targaryens - the Dragonpit. So, maybe the Targs have ascended the throne and designated their council to charge Tyrion with the crime of treason in a place that symbolizes their return to power...  I feel a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror at this 'Disney Ending', just typing out that sentence!

[Eyes High]

37 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Friki did say Sansa is the most wanted or sought after female now, so maybe Tyrion still thinks she's his ?

They have to bring show Tyrion into his book counter part; but they made him into such a saint, can't wait to see this play out.

If they make whatever move Tyrion makes against Sansa and the Starks more about Tyrion's loneliness, self-loathing and self-destructiveness, it could work. That's always been part of his character in the show, and his "dark" arc was mostly him wanting to drink himself to death. Making him do a face-heel turn like Shae in S4 seems more D&D's speed, though, so maybe I'm giving the writers too much credit. The thing that bugs me about Tyrion turning on Sansa is that Hannah Murray said in May when asked about her favourite ships that she liked Jaime/Brienne and was also a fan of Tyrion/Sansa, which is kind of a weird thing to say if Tyrion turns on Sansa in S8 and gets her kidnapped or whatever. I mean, she could have picked any number of canon couples, and that's whom she picked? They're not even a ship, really, to most people, considering they've only ever been lukewarm towards each other at best, and they're certainly not on the level of Jaime/Brienne, who are as close to canon as you can get. Either Friki's mistaken about Tyrion betraying the Starks, or Hannah Murray has a really weird sense of humour.

Friki thinks Sansa will wind up with Robin, doesn't he? It's pure speculation on his part, but at this point, the field of candidates is dwindling. Sandor isn't at the Dragonpit, and neither is Gendry if Friki is to be believed, and Tyrion seems to be destined for Drogon BBQ. Who's left apart from Robin? Not that she has to wind up with anyone, of course.

37 minutes ago, anamika said:

Ha! It's always good to analyse any information from all sides and reassess when new information comes in! 

I've lost count of the times I've reassessed. This is exhausting. Give me something a trailer for the pain and let me die.

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The main issue I had with Friki's leaks was Joe Dempsie saying that he filmed there and became emotional and had lines of dialogue and several other actors wrapped with him etc. But then that could just be him filming the documentary like Sophie may have done on her last day on the Belfast set at Moneyglass.

Don't even get me started on Friki's claims that Joe went to Seville, didn't film anything for the show, and repeatedly lied in media interviews by implying he filmed his last scenes there. That has never made any sense to me.

And if Joe didn't film for the show in Seville, doesn't that mean that Gendry could very well be dead by the time that scene rolls around in 8x06? Joe Dempsie missed all the KL exterior filming in May and June as well.

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And we also have Sophie saying that it was long, sweaty and boring to shoot - that tells me that it was just actors sitting/standing around talking in their heavy costumes rather than an action heavy scene with people/characters running around etc.

I agree, especially since Sophie has been very enthusiastic in the past about getting to film any kind of action scene, since most of her scenes are standing around talking. 

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I remember Kit complaining about how hot and heavy his costume was in the DVD commentary for last season's finale.

Poor Kit! Those cloaks look really heavy, and in Seville heat, even in the fall...I couldn't imagine.

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It could just be nostalgia. The cast and crew seem to have had a fun time there last year and maybe they wanted to be there one last time to say farewell to the location and the show. It's an impressive location.

Quite possibly. Everyone gushed so much about how much fun it was to film in Italica for S7, how much they enjoyed filming scenes with actors they had never shared scenes with before, how it was like a big party, etc. etc., so maybe D&D wrote a scene there just to have an excuse to party in Seville with as many cast members as they could convince HBO to fly in. And who could blame them?

What bugs me is that they took extreme measures in S8 that they've never taken before to lock down security for filming. They risked a lot by coming to a city full of GOT-crazed fans, full of GOT-crazed tourists, to film in an uncovered site they couldn't fully secure from drones, to film a scene from the last episode. Either having another Dragonpit scene was just that important to them, or they really, really, really wanted to party in Seville.

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Though, if the Starks are in control of KL, it makes no sense to have Tyrion's trial in a place that was important to the Targaryens - the Dragonpit. So, maybe the Targs have ascended the throne and designated their council to charge Tyrion with the crime of treason in a place that symbolizes their return to power...  I feel a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror at this 'Disney Ending', just typing out that sentence!

Ha! Quite possibly. As has been pointed out, if Davos is running the trial, it makes sense that he's doing it in Jon's name while Jon and Dany are off doing...something. Ruling. Banging. Riding dragons. Something.

Edited November 24, 2018 by Eyes High

[bubble sparkly]

18 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Ha! Quite possibly. As has been pointed out, if Davos is running the trial, it makes sense that he's doing it in Jon's name while Jon and Dany are off doing...something. Ruling. Banging. Riding dragons. Something.

Banging whilst riding dragons lol?  Can't get more Targ than Aunty/Nephew dragon-back sex!

[Smad]

23 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Friki thinks Sansa will wind up with Robin, doesn't he? It's pure speculation on his part, but at this point, the field of candidates is dwindling.

Yikes. After everything they put her through (even for no reason ala S5) they sick Robin on her too? Jesus. I'd rather they kill her off then. The only one who should get Robin is Royce. If they seriously go with Sansa/Robin, I'll just imagine that when the credits roll, Sansa's epilogue would be her arriving at the Eyrie and flinging herself out the moon door. Why do there still need to be arranged marriages? I thought we were going to 'break the wheel'?

[Eyes High]

3 minutes ago, Smad said:

Yikes. After everything they put her through (even for no reason ala S5) they sick Robin on her too? Jesus. I'd rather they kill her off then. The only one who should get Robin is Royce. If they seriously go with Sansa/Robin, I'll just imagine that when the credits roll, Sansa's epilogue would be her arriving at the Eyrie and flinging herself out the moon door. Why do there still need to be arranged marriages? I thought we were going to 'break the wheel'?

Sansa need not get married at all, of course, and Liam Cunningham warned that everything isn't going to be tied up neatly in a bow (which I personally took as "Don't get your hopes up, shippers," but that's just me). It's just that if she ends up with someone--and she may not!--it sounds like Robin's the only viable candidate left, or maybe Sam if Gilly bites it, and there seems to be some speculation that she will.

Edited November 24, 2018 by Eyes High

[Smad]

2 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Sansa need not get married at all, of course, and Liam Cunningham warned that everything isn't going to be tied up neatly in a bow (which I personally took as "Don't get your hopes up, shippers," but that's just me). It's just that if she ends up with someone--and she may not!--it sounds like Robin's the only viable candidate left, or maybe Sam if Gilly bites it, and there seems to be some speculation that she will.

I don't see why it needs to be someone we have seen on the show before. Some houses from all of Westeros will make it post war. Heck it doesn't even need to be someone from a house. If they are going to 'break the wheel' it could just be a regular person that she actually marries for love. And it's not like she is in a hurry or needs to be. Isn't she still like 18? If she stays as Lady of Winterfell then her time will be quite occupied with rebuilding WF anyway. Other than Jon/Dany, I rather all the shippy stuff stays unresolved.

[Eyes High]

8 minutes ago, Smad said:

I don't see why it needs to be someone we have seen on the show before. Some houses from all of Westeros will make it post war. Heck it doesn't even need to be someone from a house. If they are going to 'break the wheel' it could just be a regular person that she actually marries for love. And it's not like she is in a hurry or needs to be. Isn't she still like 18? If she stays as Lady of Winterfell then her time will be quite occupied with rebuilding WF anyway. Other than Jon/Dany, I rather all the shippy stuff stays unresolved.

Other than Jon/Dany and whoever's left standing among the existing canon or almost-canon couples (Jaime/Brienne, Sam/Gilly, Grey Worm/Missandei), there won't be many ships to resolve, will there? Maybe Arya/Gendry (if Gendry lives long enough, which he may not), maybe Sansa/Someone, maybe Bran/Meera if Bran decides he's not a robot anymore and Meera shows up again. I can't really think of anyone else.

[anamika]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

Hannah Murray said in May when asked about her favourite ships that she liked Jaime/Brienne

I have to correct you there. She mentioned that she was torn between Brienne/Tormund and Brienne/Jaime when asked about her favorite ship. And yes, she also mentions Sansa/Tyrion.  Though the best part of that interview was her response to Jonsa:

Never stops being funny.

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

The thing that bugs me about Tyrion turning on Sansa is that Hannah Murray said in May when asked about her favourite ships that she liked Jaime/Brienne and was also a fan of Tyrion/Sansa, which is kind of a weird thing to say if Tyrion turns on Sansa in S8 and gets her kidnapped or whatever. I mean, she could have picked any number of canon couples, and that's whom she picked? They're not even a ship, really, to most people, considering they've only ever been lukewarm towards each other at best, and they're certainly not on the level of Jaime/Brienne, who are as close to canon as you can get. 

I think Sansa and Tyrion will have a lot of scenes and interaction next season as either foes or friends. They are positioned as the expert advisers, diplomat, politician etc. on either side of the Stark/Targ divide. As per EW, Sansa does not like that Jon bend the knee and Tyrion is trying to keep the peace between the different factions - it's only naturally that Tyrion will try to convince Sansa about Dany.  If Tyrion sides with the Lannisters then he could also clash with a Sansa who is trying to protect her family.

Edited November 24, 2018 by anamika

[bubble sparkly]

If Sansa does end up with Robin (which is still a big if at this stage), it doesn't necessarily mean it will be an arranged marriage.  Robin is age appropriate, the actor has had a puberty glow up so he could now be presented as "hot", and he has cache as Lord of the Vale.

Now obviously Robin was a spoiled, weird, joke of a person when we saw him in the first few seasons, but I think we can probably lay that squarely on Lysa's upbringing.  It didn't help matters that when she died LF was still around to manipulate him.  I think the last time we saw Robin he authorised LF to send the KOTV to help in the BOTB right?  Royce and co were at least trying to teach him some fighting skills in s5/6.  It has been 2 or 3 years so it's possible Robin has matured, developed some basic fighting skills and isn't a complete tool anymore.

Alternatively, maybe Robin is still a useless boob and Sansa sees that he would be easy to control, so if she married him she would essentially be in charge of the Vale. Maybe Royce even begs her to marry Robin so the Vale has some hope for the future?

[Colorful Mess]

8 hours ago, screamin said:

Granted, Jon spoke up against burning the Red Keep and probably lots of KL along with it. But I doubt he'd condone Tyrion's actual reasons for advising Dany to hold off on a KL attack, as he explained them to Cersei.

Tyrion's "sabotage" resulted in the loss of two powerful allies in Dorne and Highgarden (I especially miss the Queen of Thorns). I don't think it takes "paranoia" to see this as serious damage Tyrion inflicted on Dany's cause to benefit his family's conflicting interests. If that only counts as trifling "sabotage," imagine what actual sabotage without quotation marks would do?

Myself, I expect Tyrion to decide to get Jon killed so pregnant Dany can reign alone. If Dany found out about both of these betrayals of his (the first can be told by a captured Cersei in a last parting shot to drag Tyrion down with her, or by Qyburn in an attempt to save his skin by telling all he knows) I don't think dire punishment from Dany would be due to paranoia; any monarch treated that way would react severely.

To be blunt, we dont see any scene where Jon gives a shit. Dany losing allies to Cersei? Who cares, he's only there for dragons and dragonglass. He didn't even want her to fight Cersei. He doesn't even think Cersei will attack the North. She's irrelevant.

I don't believe Tyrion is sabotaging her. He's trying to make Dany better than Cersei but also win at the same time. He's got a helluva hard job. Jon said she appears to be better than Cersei because she hadnt unleashed her dragons yet. But she does, soon after anyway.

Tyrion did Jon a solid by finding a way to get Dany to help. If there's any evidence for a conspiracy being revealed in S8 its that Tyrion concocted the truce just to get Dany off the Fire and Blood path. Jon's reaction? GOOD.

Edited November 24, 2018 by Colorful Mess

[Smad]

19 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said:

If Sansa does end up with Robin (which is still a big if at this stage), it doesn't necessarily mean it will be an arranged marriage.  Robin is age appropriate, the actor has had a puberty glow up so he could now be presented as "hot", and he has cache as Lord of the Vale.

Now obviously Robin was a spoiled, weird, joke of a person when we saw him in the first few seasons, but I think we can probably lay that squarely on Lysa's upbringing.  It didn't help matters that when she died LF was still around to manipulate him.  I think the last time we saw Robin he authorised LF to send the KOTV to help in the BOTB right?  Royce and co were at least trying to teach him some fighting skills in s5/6.  It has been 2 or 3 years so it's possible Robin has matured, developed some basic fighting skills and isn't a complete tool anymore.

Alternatively, maybe Robin is still a useless boob and Sansa sees that he would be easy to control, so if she married him she would essentially be in charge of the Vale. Maybe Royce even begs her to marry Robin so the Vale has some hope for the future?

All of these options/reasons are not of the good. It goes between depressing and pathetic. She'll essentially end up being a mother to him more than a romantic partner or wife. Teaching the boy how to be a soldier is one thing, he's still going to have major mommy issues. Even if 2-3 years have passed (and still wanting to throw people out doors last we saw), he clearly didn't have a mother replacement last we saw him. So those mommy issues remain. It would be totally unbelievable if he was a well adjusted, mature young man. I don't see any way out of this that makes this guy a viable option for Sansa in any way.

21 minutes ago, anamika said:

And yes, she also mentions Sansa/Tyrion.

 

Don't understand why this is a thing either. Tyrion is a mess and apparently will be even more so in S8. So Sansa gets shipped with the broken toys of Westeros? And as her only marriage options on top of that? Urgh. Considering how sexist D&D are and love to punish Sansa for being 'feminine', I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they sick either of these guys on her. *vomit*

Edited November 24, 2018 by Smad

[anamika]

26 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said:

Alternatively, maybe Robin is still a useless boob and Sansa sees that he would be easy to control, so if she married him she would essentially be in charge of the Vale. Maybe Royce even begs her to marry Robin so the Vale has some hope for the future?

If Sansa is going to marry Robin, it is going to be only for this reason. She would in essence be ruling the Vale and hold the power there. She would be the new Queen of Thorns in the Vale.

Edited November 24, 2018 by anamika

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Friki thinks Sansa will wind up with Robin, doesn't he? It's pure speculation on his part, but at this point, the field of candidates is dwindling. Sandor isn't at the Dragonpit, and neither is Gendry if Friki is to be believed, and Tyrion seems to be destined for Drogon BBQ. Who's left apart from Robin? Not that she has to wind up with anyone, of course.

I think he was speculating, and having a go at SR.

Sansa though ( in book ) seems to be one he could utilize to help her house and unless destroyed the Eyrie may give her protection she seeks.

Though to be honest I rather have her in WF I think snow Winterfell still has to happen. 

[Eyes High]

28 minutes ago, anamika said:

I have to correct you there. She mentioned that she was torn between Brienne/Tormund and Brienne/Jaime when asked about her favorite ship. And yes, she also mentions Sansa/Tyrion.  Though the best part of that interview was her response to Jonsa:

Never stops being funny.

Ha! She is adorable.

8 minutes ago, Smad said:

Don't understand why this is a thing either. Tyrion is a mess and apparently will be even more so in S8. So Sansa gets shipped with the broken toys of Westeros? And as her only marriage options on top of that?

Her only real options in the books are Tyrion, Sandor and Robin, so...yeah, pretty much. To be fair, Sansa's kind of a broken toy herself now in the show, although to hear Sophie Turner tell it she's large and in charge at the start of S8 at least.

Quote

 

Urgh. Considering how sexist D&D are and love to punish Sansa for being 'feminine', I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they sick either of these guys on her. *vomit*

 

I don't think you can blame Sansa ending up with one of Sandor/Tyrion/Robin on D&D. That would be on GRRM, since Book Sansa and TV Sansa's endgames will probably be the same, as with all the major characters.

14 minutes ago, anamika said:

Is Sansa is going to marry Robin, it's only going to be for this reason. She would in essence be ruling the Vale and hold the power there. She would be the new Queen of Thorns in the Vale.

Yup. And if Sansa does rule the Vale, that would free up Winterfell to be ruled by another Stark...maybe Arya? 

[OhOkayWhat]

Writers write. They don't "punish". Sansa is not real.

[OhOkayWhat]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

maybe Arya? 

I really hope not.

[Smad]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

Her only real options in the books are Tyrion, Sandor and Robin, so...yeah, pretty much. To be fair, Sansa's kind of a broken toy herself now in the show, although to hear Sophie Turner tell it she's large and in charge at the start of S8 at least.

I don't think you can blame Sansa ending up with one of Sandor/Tyrion/Robin on D&D. That would be on GRRM, since Book Sansa and TV Sansa's endgames will probably be the same, as with all the major characters.

Why are those her options in the books? Because she has had contact with these guys specifically? What does that even matter? There are hundreds of houses in the books from what I understand. Besides we are talking show!Sansa and the writers can give her whatever end they want. Considering they didn't give a damn about Sansa's Vale book story, I don't see why her romantic endgame (if there is one) needs to suddenly fall in line with whatever GRRM has planned. I don't even think GRRM told them his actual endgame because that would make the books less interesting. Why bother buying them if you know the ending? His endgame for Sansa may just follow Elizabeth l which means she stays single. That's what I would prefer in the show because it's the only thing that makes sense to me in regards to Sansa after Joffrey/Tyrion/Ramsey/Petyr.

They IMO wrote themselves into a corner thanks to the idiocy that was the S5 plot. They already had to deal with a shit storm after the 'abuse victim escapes but had to deal with a pedo (Petyr) and willingly going to get raped/brutalized for no story purpose'. If they kill Sansa off in S8 people will accuse them of saying 'victims of rape/abuse can't ever come out on top'. If they have her politically marry it's like 'yawn how very original' in regards to Sansa. If they have her marry those broken toys it's exactly like you said. Broken toys only get other broken toys which is again a horrible message. Just let her stay single and people can imagine whatever they want as to 'what happens after the show is over'. They can imagine she gets with Tyrion or Robin. They can imagine she stays single, heals and rules whatever part of Westeros or is on someone's council. Or they can imagine she actually finds love, whether that person is a highborn or not. And since she is likely the only Stark to continue the line, I'd prefer the latter option.

[Minneapple]

Also, Sandor/Tyrion/Robin don’t have to be Sansa’s only options in the books...because the books are not yet finished. For all we know GRRM is going to garden up more potential suitors for Sansa.

[Smad]

Btw does anyone have any info on this other than what's in the sub?

https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/9zruyl/a_season_8_trailer_that_came_and_went/

[GrailKing]

4 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Her only real options in the books are Tyrion, Sandor and Robin, so...yeah, pretty much. To be fair, Sansa's kind of a broken toy herself now in the show, although to hear Sophie Turner tell it she's large and in charge at the start of S8 at least.

She also has the option of nobody until later.

To be fair, everyone to one extent or another is broken. I think Sansa's more together then Cersei, probably more than Arya too and I'm still on the fence with Danny.

[WindyNights]

13 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Ha! She is adorable.

Her only real options in the books are Tyrion, Sandor and Robin, so...yeah, pretty much. To be fair, Sansa's kind of a broken toy herself now in the show, although to hear Sophie Turner tell it she's large and in charge at the start of S8 at least.

I don't think you can blame Sansa ending up with one of Sandor/Tyrion/Robin on D&D. That would be on GRRM, since Book Sansa and TV Sansa's endgames will probably be the same, as with all the major characters.

Yup. And if Sansa does rule the Vale, that would free up Winterfell to be ruled by another Stark...maybe Arya? 

Harry the Heir? 

Sandor's not really an option. Cogman already said that GRRM doesn't know what he will do with Sandor in the future implying that Sandor and Sansa don't hook up ever

14 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

If Sansa does end up with Robin (which is still a big if at this stage), it doesn't necessarily mean it will be an arranged marriage.  Robin is age appropriate, the actor has had a puberty glow up so he could now be presented as "hot", and he has cache as Lord of the Vale.

Now obviously Robin was a spoiled, weird, joke of a person when we saw him in the first few seasons, but I think we can probably lay that squarely on Lysa's upbringing.  It didn't help matters that when she died LF was still around to manipulate him.  I think the last time we saw Robin he authorised LF to send the KOTV to help in the BOTB right?  Royce and co were at least trying to teach him some fighting skills in s5/6.  It has been 2 or 3 years so it's possible Robin has matured, developed some basic fighting skills and isn't a complete tool anymore.

Alternatively, maybe Robin is still a useless boob and Sansa sees that he would be easy to control, so if she married him she would essentially be in charge of the Vale. Maybe Royce even begs her to marry Robin so the Vale has some hope for the future?

In the books, Sansa would rather be married to Tyrion than Robert which says a lot: 

 

 "Sansa felt sorry for her little cousin sometimes, but she could not imagine ever wanting to be his wife. I would sooner be married to Tyrion again"

[nikma]

I think Sansa's marriage with Robin could work if they play them like new Olenna and Luthor Tyrell. 

[Colorful Mess]

That was me. Since we were discussing tropey storylines I mentioned Sansa ending up with Jon, a la Aragorn/Arwen and the BATB trope, and all hell broke loose! lol 

On 11/23/2018 at 5:27 PM, GrailKing said:

My thinking is he goes to engage Sansa maybe try to rekindle something, but Sansa shuts him down and he resents it ( like in the books about her stiff knees ) and he decides to do something that gets Sansa kidnapped ( plenty of foreshadowing in show and books ) whether by intent or not that would be a betrayal to the Starks, especially because both Jon and Sansa have decent opinions of him.

Sounds a bit like my theory that Tyrion tries to consummate the marriage with Sansa to secure Winterfell for Dany. Marriages for peace-binding are contentious and if played poorly result in crisis. 

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, Colorful Mess said:

That was me. Since we were discussing tropey storylines I mentioned Sansa ending up with Jon, a la Aragorn/Arwen and the BATB trope, and all hell broke loose! lol 

Sounds a bit like my theory that Tyrion tries to consummate the marriage with Sansa to secure Winterfell for Dany. Marriages for peace-binding are contentious and if played poorly result in crisis. 

I don't think he go that far, because if he did; Sansa would kill him on the spot, and if not Sansa, Arya or Brienne ( though they may be quite busy ).

To me the rape of Sansa Stark is wearing thin, and George said no rapes for his POV characters, so maybe this time D & D actually sticks to his ideas.

Hoping.

[Smad]

4 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

Sounds a bit like my theory that Tyrion tries to consummate the marriage with Sansa to secure Winterfell for Dany. Marriages for peace-binding are contentious and if played poorly result in crisis. 

Are they even still married? D&D never stated annulment rules. But she was married to Ramsey and that wouldn't have been possible if she was still married to Tyrion I assume. Roose Bolton didn't strike me as a guy who would leave such detail up in the air. Or did LittleFinger fake annulment papers? It's confusing to this day.

[screamin]

On 11/23/2018 at 3:22 PM, Eyes High said:

To be fair, incompetence is not the same thing as deliberate sabotage. Robb didn't sabotage the Stark cause and his family by executing Karstark and marrying Talisa, he just made two huge mistakes, but he couldn't have done more to ruin things for the Starks than if he had done it deliberately.

And a lot of characters in the show, regardless of level of intelligence and competence, make bad judgment calls that ruin things for the people they love, so I hesitate to chalk Tyrion's bumbling in S7 up to deliberate sabotage. If it were, as I said, that would be awesome.

True that Tyrion did not intend his choice to spare Cersei by convincing Dany not to attack KL to have quite such dire consequences as it did. But he did know for a fact that he was convincing his queen to forgo a quick end to the war (however potentially bloody, though I do think it's at least possible for dragons to take the Red Keep with controlled burns that might spare the city) in favor of a long campaign that would take down far more of her soldiers, under a too-clever-by-half plan to split up her limited numbers that he HAD to know was riskier, with a greater chance of his queen losing. So he did decide to sacrifice an unknown but potentially serious number of his queen's men to save his sister, her enemy. That's a betrayal. IMO, the fact that he only intended that dangerous betrayal to kill a few of the queen's followers instead of the massacre it did cause doesn't make it less of a betrayal.

A lot of monarchs would have his head for that one betrayal. Dany probably wouldn't, considering how she spared Jorah, but he'd likely get more than just exile if she'd found out about it (imprisonment would be the safest, considering he'd seem likely to return to the Lannisters' side). No doubt there will be another betrayal further down the line that will seal his fate.

Since Dany is probably pregnant, I think she has to be the one to survive. The plot as it is will not allow her nine (or even eight or seven) months to bring a baby to term and THEN kill her off; things are happening way too fast. Not to mention that Jon is a dead man walking, living on borrowed time. I think Tyrion will get wind of the prophecy, and with clever talk and ulterior motives use it to convince Jon that he HAS to be the one to sacrifice himself to defeat the NK and save Dany and the world. Hell, with his moral ambiguity he'll probably convince himself it's all for the best, Dany's pregnant so SHE can't be the sacrifice, and she'd make a better ruler anyway under his tender guidance as her Hand. I fully expect him to make a solid and convincing argument for himself at his trial - and get put to death anyway.

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, screamin said:

True that Tyrion did not intend his choice to spare Cersei by convincing Dany not to attack KL to have quite such dire consequences as it did. But he did know for a fact that he was convincing his queen to forgo a quick end to the war (however potentially bloody, though I do think it's at least possible for dragons to take the Red Keep with controlled burns that might spare the city) in favor of a long campaign that would take down far more of her soldiers, under a too-clever-by-half plan to split up her limited numbers that he HAD to know was riskier, with a greater chance of his queen losing. So he did decide to sacrifice an unknown but potentially serious number of his queen's men to save his sister, her enemy. That's a betrayal. IMO, the fact that he only intended that dangerous betrayal to kill a few of the queen's followers instead of the massacre it did cause doesn't make it less of a betrayal.

A lot of monarchs would have his head for that one betrayal. Dany probably wouldn't, considering how she spared Jorah, but he'd likely get more than just exile if she'd found out about it (imprisonment would be the safest, considering he'd seem likely to return to the Lannisters' side). No doubt there will be another betrayal further down the line that will seal his fate.

Since Dany is probably pregnant, I think she has to be the one to survive. The plot as it is will not allow her nine (or even eight or seven) months to bring a baby to term and THEN kill her off; things are happening way too fast. Not to mention that Jon is a dead man walking, living on borrowed time. I think Tyrion will get wind of the prophecy, and with clever talk and ulterior motives use it to convince Jon that he HAS to be the one to sacrifice himself to defeat the NK and save Dany and the world. Hell, with his moral ambiguity he'll probably convince himself it's all for the best, Dany's pregnant so SHE can't be the sacrifice, and she'd make a better ruler anyway under his tender guidance as her Hand. I fully expect him to make a solid and convincing argument for himself at his trial - and get put to death anyway.

WRG to KL and the RK, I'm in some agreement, but I will add; of that whole group talking about how, he's the only one ( well Varys too maybe ) aware of the stock pile of Wildfire below. Control burns or not, that's a major headache. 

[Eyes High]

4 hours ago, Smad said:

Are they even still married? D&D never stated annulment rules. But she was married to Ramsey and that wouldn't have been possible if she was still married to Tyrion I assume. Roose Bolton didn't strike me as a guy who would leave such detail up in the air. Or did LittleFinger fake annulment papers? It's confusing to this day.

In the show they are not married since there was no consummation, as Littlefinger told Roose. No one has questioned the legality of Sansa marrying Ramsay. Lyanna mocking her about Sansa being a Lannister was just Lyanna being a dick.

If Bran is the endgame king, especially if it’s because Jon and Dany are dead, and Tyrion dies too, I’m going to take a wild guess that all GRRM-related properties are going to become a lot less valuable, and if there’s a big fan backlash, I guarantee we can kiss TWOW goodbye.

Edited November 25, 2018 by Eyes High

[GraceK]

@Eyes High what’s your opinion on the Season 8 trailer than never was controversy  that happened in FF the other day?

[Colorful Mess]

11 hours ago, GrailKing said:

George said no rapes for his POV characters

Quote? I've seen him condemn stories that shy away from rape:

"Rape and sexual violence have been a part of every war ever fought, from the ancient Sumerians to our present day. To omit them from a narrative centered on war and power would have been fundamentally false and dishonest, and would have undermined one of the themes of the books: that the true horrors of human history derive not from orcs and Dark Lords, but from ourselves. We are the monsters. (And the heroes too). Each of us has within himself the capacity for great good, and great evil." History, according to Martin, is "written in blood", and although Westeros is not "the Disneyland Middle Ages", it is "no darker nor more depraved than our own world. The atrocities in A Song of Ice and Fire, sexual and otherwise, pale in comparison to what can be found in any good history book." (x)

I'm a realpolitik pessimist about Sansa. And Tyrion is a rapist in the books. 

[Eyes High]

54 minutes ago, GraceK said:

@Eyes High what’s your opinion on the Season 8 trailer than never was controversy  that happened in FF the other day?

A fake. In previous seasons, GOT releases multiple teasers with old footage or CGI and no new show footage before starting in on the trailers: the Sigils and Long Walk teasers for S7, the banner teasers for S6, etc. HBO has released new material mistakenly before (like 6x05 and 7x06 getting released accidentally ahead of schedule), but this doesn't pass the smell test. 

There may not be much material ready for a trailer yet in any event. Completion of VFX work for a GOT season tends to go down to the wire, and we're still close to five months away from the premiere. Contrary to popular belief, HBO doesn't wait until two-three months before a premiere date to show the first trailer to torture fans. They do it because there isn't enough VFX footage (dragons, battles, etc.) they can use until very close to the premiere date. HBO could probably air a VFX-free trailer today, if they wanted to, with only shots of characters sitting in rooms, making out, and stalking through hallways, but they probably want to showcase dragons, explosions, battles and such, and they're going to need completed VFX footage for that.

Edited November 25, 2018 by Eyes High

[GraceK]

27 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

A fake. In previous seasons, GOT releases multiple teasers with old footage or CGI and no new show footage before starting in on the trailers: the Sigils and Long Walk teasers for S7, the banner teasers for S6, etc. HBO has released new material mistakenly before (like 6x05 and 7x06 getting released accidentally ahead of schedule), but this doesn't pass the smell test. 

There may not be much material ready for a trailer yet in any event. Completion of VFX work for a GOT season tends to go down to the wire, and we're still close to five months away from the premiere. Contrary to popular belief, HBO doesn't wait until two-three months before a premiere date to show the first trailer to torture fans. They do it because there isn't enough VFX footage (dragons, battles, etc.) they can use until very close to the premiere date. HBO could probably air a VFX-free trailer today, if they wanted to, with only shots of characters sitting in rooms, making out, and stalking through hallways, but they probably want to showcase dragons, explosions, battles and such, and they're going to need completed VFX footage for that.

 

Glad I asked. I was almost , slightly  in the pre stages of  possible excitement when I read about it 😂😂

Edited November 25, 2018 by GraceK

[Eyes High]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if Friki is correct that Joe Dempsie didn't film anything for the 8x06 Dragonpit scene in Seville (which was apparently the only thing filmed), but if Joe Dempsie was showing his face freely in public in Seville along with main cast members, doesn't that mean that the production was trying to fool people into thinking that Gendry is still alive in 8x06? Because if he were alive, wouldn't he be there with Davos and Arya?

I can buy that Jon and Dany might be absent because Dany is giving birth or they've left Westeros or are so disgusted by Tyrion's betrayal that they skip his trial, but Gendry being absent despite Davos, Arya, Sam, etc. being there doesn't bode well for him, right? I wonder the same thing about Sandor, Gilly and Missandei. I refuse to believe Sandor would miss Tyrion's trial unless he was dead, given how much Sandor has always hated him. The production and actors didn't try to hoodwink us into thinking Rory, Hannah and Nathalie filmed the 8x06 Dragonpit scene, though--Rory and Nathalie were provably elsewhere, I think--and Joe and HBO seem to want fans to think that Gendry is in the 8x06 scene (assuming Friki is right).

Edited November 25, 2018 by Eyes High

[WindyNights]

Betting has just been suspended on Bovada.

Bran jumped from +500 to +150 in the past few weeks on Bovada.

Bran is also the #1 choice on Betway and Betfair. 

 

Betway:

Bran 2.5/1

Dany 5/1

Jon 5/1

 

Betfair:

Bran 2/1

Dany’s Kid 4/1

Dany 4/1

 

Everywhere has has given Bran a minimum of a 28 % to 60 % chance of him becoming the king in the end.

[cambridgeguy]

6 hours ago, screamin said:

True that Tyrion did not intend his choice to spare Cersei by convincing Dany not to attack KL to have quite such dire consequences as it did. But he did know for a fact that he was convincing his queen to forgo a quick end to the war (however potentially bloody, though I do think it's at least possible for dragons to take the Red Keep with controlled burns that might spare the city) in favor of a long campaign that would take down far more of her soldiers, under a too-clever-by-half plan to split up her limited numbers that he HAD to know was riskier, with a greater chance of his queen losing. So he did decide to sacrifice an unknown but potentially serious number of his queen's men to save his sister, her enemy. That's a betrayal. IMO, the fact that he only intended that dangerous betrayal to kill a few of the queen's followers instead of the massacre it did cause doesn't make it less of a betrayal.

That's Tyrion the politician doing the planning - if Dany had immediately gone to KL then she'd have won but the rest of Westeros (i.e. anyone other than the Tyrells, Iron Islands, and Dorne) would be horrified and ready to rise up against her the moment they felt strong enough to do so.  Tyrion's thinking of making things easier in the future (be a beloved leader, not a feared one) but doesn't seem to truly grasp the benefit of wrapping things up quickly and brutally, especially since Aegon more or less did that and established a dynasty.  We got a hint of this in the scene where Tyrion wants to talk about Dany's heir and she tells him to shut up.

 

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

I can buy that Jon and Dany might be absent because Dany is giving birth or they've left Westeros or are so disgusted by Tyrion's betrayal that they skip his trial, but Gendry being absent despite Davos, Arya, Sam, etc. being there doesn't bode well for him, right? I wonder the same thing about Sandor, Gilly and Missandei. I refuse to believe Sandor would miss Tyrion's trial unless he was dead, given how much Sandor has always hated him. The production and actors didn't try to hoodwink us into thinking Rory, Hannah and Nathalie filmed the 8x06 Dragonpit scene, though--Rory and Nathalie were provably elsewhere, I think--and Joe and HBO seem to want fans to think that Gendry is in the 8x06 scene (assuming Friki is right).

Is Gendry important enough in-show to be there?  Sure, he's the bastard son of Robert but barring a somewhat surprising declaration from Dany naming him Lord of the Stormlands he's still one of the "little people", as are Sandor and Gilly.  Missandei is probably going to stick with Dany or die so if Dany's not there there's some logic to her being absent. 

[anamika]

As I mentioned before, the people gathered at Tyrion's trial as per Friki are a bit puzzling. Assuming it's a council of some sort and assuming they are representatives from each kingdom, let's go over them:

Bearded guy: Dorne.

Guy in green clothing: Highgarden

Bran: King?

North: Sansa

Yara: Iron Islands

SweetRobin: Vale

Davos: Hand of the King?

Where are the representatives of the rest of the kingdoms? Assuming Brienne is there with Sansa and Sam is there with Bran, why is Arya there? Surely one representative from the North should be enough? Who is representing the Riverlands and the Stormlands? The Rock?

Unless Brienne is representing the Stormlands from house Tarth. And Sam is for the reach and guy in green is for the Rock. And that leaves Arya for the Riverlands.

That, I think, gives us a representative for each kingdom in that group at Tyrion's trial.

So, the ending. Tyrion gets accused of Treason and be sentenced to die. But like his ancestor, Lann the clever, he manages to escape a third time and goes incognito. Or to the wall.  Jon/Dany either die or leave Westeros with their baby. Bran heads the great council, Arya is in charge of the riverlands, Sansa the North, SR the Vale, Sam the reach, Brienne the Stormlands, unknown person 1 Dorne and unknown person 2 the Rock. Davos as Bran's adviser. I don't think this is exactly the book ending considering all the extra characters GRRM has at his disposal. But I don't think we are getting the exact book ending. As Cogman said in the EW article:

Quote

“It’s an incredibly emotional, haunting, bittersweet final season, and I think it honors very much what George set out to do — which is flipping this kind of story on its head.”

It's not exactly bad for an ending if Jon/Dany survive... and go off to their house with the red door. And the audience know that Tyrion makes it out alive even if the denizens of Westeros don't. And the Starks get to have power in Westeros. I would think both Stark/Targ fans would be happy with this?

If on the other hand, Jon/Dany/Tyrion do end up dying then yeah, only the hardcore Stark stans who are always going on about it being a 'Time for Wolves' are going to end up liking the ending. Especially on the show where the writing for the Stark siblings has been pretty terrible.

Edited November 26, 2018 by anamika

[Leila6]

Despite the betting shenanigans, I can’t buy Bran as endgame king/ruler unless he learns much better control of his TER-ness powers and lack of affect. He has the benefit of being basically omniscient, but would anyone really be inspired to follow or love the Branbot? 

[WindyNights]

3 hours ago, Leila6 said:

Despite the betting shenanigans, I can’t buy Bran as endgame king/ruler unless he learns much better control of his TER-ness powers and lack of affect. He has the benefit of being basically omniscient, but would anyone really be inspired to follow or love the Branbot? 

He can go into any lord's past to blackmail people or trade info with people for support. 

Machiavelli: It is better to be feared than loved.

[bubble sparkly]

But s7 Bran had no interest in ruling. When Sansa said he was LoW he said he couldn’t be Lord of anything.

Now I suppose that when the AoTD is defeated then Bran might feel like he can be a king / ruler because he doesn’t need to focus his energies on the NK. But robo-Bran of s7 doesn’t seem like he would have the motivation to Machiavelli his way to the throne.

[BadAssRobinArryn]

9 hours ago, anamika said:

As I mentioned before, the people gathered at Tyrion's trial as per Friki are a bit puzzling. Assuming it's a council of some sort and assuming they are representatives from each kingdom, let's go over them:

Bearded guy: Dorne.

Guy in green clothing: Highgarden

Bran: King?

North: Sansa

Yara: Iron Islands

SweetRobin: Vale

Davos: Hand of the King?

Where are the representatives of the rest of the kingdoms? Assuming Brienne is there with Sansa and Sam is there with Bran, why is Arya there? Surely one representative from the North should be enough? Who is representing the Riverlands and the Stormlands? The Rock?

Unless Brienne is representing the Stormlands from house Tarth. And Sam is for the reach and guy in green is for the Rock. And that leaves Arya for the Riverlands.

That, I think, gives us a representative for each kingdom in that group at Tyrion's trial.

 

Well if Sansa really is going to marry Sweetrobin, they could both represent the Vale, leaving Arya (or Bran, if he isn't king) as the representative of the North.

Even if Friki's spoiler are wrong, and I still think they very well might be, Sam as Lord of the Reach seems very likely to me. In Season 7, the Lannisters handed the Tarlys the reach, and with Randyll and Dickon dead, that leaves Sam as the next heir.

[WindyNights]

8 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

But s7 Bran had no interest in ruling. When Sansa said he was LoW he said he couldn’t be Lord of anything.

Now I suppose that when the AoTD is defeated then Bran might feel like he can be a king / ruler because he doesn’t need to focus his energies on the NK. But robo-Bran of s7 doesn’t seem like he would have the motivation to Machiavelli his way to the throne.

This was a leak from December: 

[Minneapple]

I guess I could see that scenario, but I don't see the point of Bran being the face of the ruling family. He doesn't even act human anymore.

I do like the idea of the Stark sisters running things in Westeros, though. My prediction remains that Dany dies but Jon lives, so perhaps Arya and Sansa also help Jon raise his child. I would love some Stark family feels scenes in this final season.