Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[OhOkayWhat]

Even if GRRM loves the Targaryen, that does not mean a Targaryen restauration. GRRM perhaps loves Tyrion, but it does not guarantee he will be alive at the end. GRRM loves to write about certain characters or groups. That's the difference between fans and writers

Edited November 16, 2018 by OhOkayWhat

[GraceK]

6 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

difference between fans and writers

? .....You do realize that GRRM is the writer of ASOIAF right? He’s not just a fan on Twitter? 

Why do people get so mad angry at the thought of a Targaryen restoration anyway? ? It’s purely speculation at this point. 

Edited November 16, 2018 by GraceK

[OhOkayWhat]

5 minutes ago, GraceK said:

? .....You do realize that GRRM is the writer of ASOIAF right? He’s not just a fan on Twitter? 

Why do people get so mad angry at the thought of a Targaryen restoration anyway? ? It’s purely speculation at this point. 

He is not a fan in twitter. That's exactly my point. He loves to write about characters. Even if that character dies.

In my case, I'm indifferent about a Targaryen restoration or a Stark rising to power or the Lannisters paying their debts.

[nikma]

I agree that Targaryen restoration will happen. It's clear to me that that's what Martin sees as balance and order in this world. And I agree. Nonsense with Robert's "right of conquest" never made any sense. He was a usurper, Stannis is usurper, Cersei, Joffrey, all of them. 

Seven Kingdoms are made by Targaryens, KL is made by Targaryens. It belongs to them more than WF belongs to the Starks. 

Edited November 16, 2018 by nikma

[Stella]

Elio Garcia:

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/152580-grrm-speculation-that-aegon-the-conqueror-knew-about-the-others/&tab=comments#comment-8264583

[WindyNights]

4 hours ago, nikma said:

I agree that Targaryen restoration will happen. It's clear to me that that's what Martin sees as balance and order in this world. And I agree. Nonsense with Robert's "right of conquest" never made any sense. He was a usurper, Stannis is usurper, Cersei, Joffrey, all of them. 

Seven Kingdoms are made by Targaryens, KL is made by Targaryens. It belongs to them more than WF belongs to the Starks. 

 

Henry Tudor claimed the crown by right of conquest. Would you say that never made any sense and the rightful king was Richard III? 

GRRM has already given his opinion on it. Legitimacy is obtained by whoever is the most powerful and whoever can convince the most people that they're the one.

Robert Baratheon is as much the rightful ruler as Aerys was and Stannis and Daenerys are.

Also KL is doomed. It'll be a shell of a city. And how does KL belong to the Targaryens more than Winterfell belongs to the Starks? KL is 300 years old. Winterfell is thousands of years old.

Edited November 17, 2018 by WindyNights

[WindyNights]

On 11/15/2018 at 6:01 AM, anamika said:

Maybe because it's the show and the writing on the show is not too deep with regards to such aspects?

Jon was literally resurrected and we don't see him talk to Sansa about coming back to life, about their siblings, or about the WW? In the books, Jon thinks of Arya in almost every chapter and ends up dying trying to save her from Ramsay. On the show, he has not mentioned her once in 7 seasons after they parted ways in season one. Arya thinks of home, Ned and Jon very often and needle is representative of family and identity. Book Arya has a lot of emotions, is sad and scared and remorseful and guilty and conflicted. On the show none of that exists because we don't get her POV on this. She's just a killer.

So, using the show to talk about how Dany is only obsessed about the throne because she does not talk about having a child or the house with the red door is a bit of a stretch. She is not discussing a heir because she wants to focus on that after getting the throne. Is she single minded in winning the throne? Of course. But I don't see anything wrong with being ambitious and wanting that. And as we saw last season - she was able to put aside something she worked towards for 7 seasons for the greater good. And that's praiseworthy indeed.

When has book Dany accepted that her main contribution has been death and destruction in the books? Can you point out the relevant part from the books? She has accepted that she made mistakes and feels remorse about the destruction done to the cities she tried to rescue from the slavers. And that is a good thing in a ruler who can introspect and accept her mistakes and make changes - as she did when she finally sued for peace. But how has freeing slaves from a horrible existence made death and destruction Dany's main contribution?

And yes, in the desert Dany does think about how a dragon plants no trees - similar to Olenna telling Dany to be a dragon. And I guess when she gets to westeros in the books and has a Dance of Dragons 2.0 with fAegon, she will be just as merciless as she was with the Lannister army/Tarlys on the show (I suspect Aegon takes out Cersei in KL and becomes king). And just like on the show, I think when Jon asks for help, she will help the North.

I am not sure why this is wrong? There will still be the 7K after ice zombies and it still has to be ruled. Cersei is squatting in KL trying to attack everyone with her army and her mercenaries. The Iron Throne and the 7K is Dany's birthright just as Winterfell is for the Starks. So why should she not focus on getting back what is hers?

As pointed out earlier, the 7K has always been the Norm. Ned enforced Robert's rule as king of the 7K by taking child hostages to ensure loyalty from rebel kingdoms. The Starks also took back WF from the Warden of the North appointed by the Lannisters.  Do you think Cersei will just ignore the Starks up North if Dany goes away?

As Tyrion points out to Dany, the Starks have more reason to hate Cersei than Dany herself. So why should not the Starks combine forces with Dany to take Cersei down?

I am not generally into shipping and all that. But I do think Jon/Dany go well together and as mentioned earlier almost parallel Alysanne and Jaehaerys. Book Jon is a thinker, politically savvy, pragmatic and smart. He reads books, does science experiments (wights in ice cells), is a reformist (Wildlings, green houses, getting women to train and fight etc.). But he lacks charisma and is unable to inspire people. So while Jon was saying all the right things at the wall in ADwD, he was not able to convince the mutineers that what he was doing was the right thing.

Dany on the other hand is an inspirational, charismatic leader who is able to get the masses to follow her in whatever she does. She's the mother of dragons, the breaker of chains. She's a conqueror and can convince people to join her using her firepower. She's also a reformist - saving women from rape, freeing the slaves, breaking barriers.

Jon and Dany together would be a good combination in the books. Like Jaehaerys, Jon takes care of the boring paper work and like Alysanne, Dany gets the people to follow them. Even on the show last season, the word together was emphasized again and again with respect to them. We had this beautiful shot of them (Ice and Fire) walking together.

I think that Jon would be happy with Dany and their child. I think he would be miserable if Dany dies and he is stuck ruling alone. There is foreshadowing on the show and in the books that Jon's life may not be all together happy in the future if he survives.

If she dies in childbirth or is fridged as Nissa Nissa then yes, I would agree that would be a great disservice to her character. Trying to get to the Iron Throne through hard work for seven seasons only to die to service Jon's character and give birth to a child? Ugh.

But other than that, a powerful leader can also be a mother and a wife. Catelyn was one of the most powerful leaders in the North - Ned put her in charge of ruling WF while he was hand of the king. She was Robb's adviser. And a loving mother and wife.  Dany would not be sacrificing her personal ambitions to be a wife and a mother. Dany is also no longer the last Targaryen, she is no longer alone and she can have a child. If Dany knows that Jon is her brother's son and has more of a claim to the throne than her, it may change the way she views things.

I think based on what I know of GRRM is author reading through his short stories, he would definitely pull a final gotcha by having Daenerys die in childbirth after she survived everything else and it would fit with Daenerys as Lyanna and Jon as Robert Baratheon. He loses the girl but gets the crown and rules miserably (although he does a decent job at it unlike Robert). 

 

Don't expect any couples to have a happy ending in this series. That's pretty much GRRM's motto on these things. 

[nikma]

24 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

4 hours ago, nikma said:

 

Henry Tudor claimed the crown by right of conquest. Would you say that never made any sense and the rightful king was Richard III? 

Henry Tudor was not a character in a fantasy story. Real history is not something that needs to make sense.

In this story Robert Baratheon, his brothers and wife are all usurpers and traitors. 

 

25 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

KL is doomed. It'll be a shell of a city. And how does KL belong to the Targaryens more than Winterfell belongs to the Starks

WF is also doomed. KL belongs to Targs because without them it would never exist. And building KL is far more impressive than WF. 

[anamika]

7 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I thought of Sam, but I had his endgame pegged for Lord of the Reach, so I don't know what he would be doing up north with Bran in the epilogue.

If Sam's ending has to gel with his book ending, I doubt he's going to be lord of the reach. Sam is a POV character in the books unlike Gendry/Edric Storm to be randomly assigned an ending just because the show killed off all the Tyrells. I can see Sam being able to do what he wants - surrounded by books, being a Maester and adviser to someone. As many have suggested, he could be the character penning ASoIaF - like TWoIaF and Fire and Blood being written by different Maesters.

7 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Those two facts are not necessarily related, unless you think that Tyrion's endgame will be revealed in the very last scene of ADOS.

It's possible. I don't think Tyrion is dying. He may have a trial and be sentenced to death. But he will not be dying. And it's revealed to the audience (Through Bran maybe) what is happening with Tyrion in the last scene...

Conversely, it also could be the last scene is Bran executing Tyrion...

7 hours ago, Eyes High said:

although if Jon is the one who condemns Tyrion for treason (being the sovereign, I assume), I don't know why Bran would be executing Tyrion.

Maybe it is not Jon who condemns Tyrion? Did not Friki say that Tyrion's betrayal was against the Starks? At this point Friki's leaks are a bit of a mess.

58 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

he would definitely pull a final gotcha by having Daenerys die in childbirth after she survived everything else and it would fit with Daenerys as Lyanna and Jon as Robert Baratheon.

Why in the world would he want to parallel Dany with Lyanna and Jon with Robert? Characters who have nothing in common with each other? For Jon, duty is everything. He was slaving away at the wall trying to protect the realms from the Others. Jon is an administrator in the books and an average fighter unlike Robert Baratheon. If there is any character who has something in common with Robert, it's Dany, who is a conqueror like Robert.

If there are parallels to be made here, then the most obvious one is Arya/Lyanna and Jon/Ned. I could very well see Jon/Dany dying battling the WW and after saving the realm, a dying Jon asks Arya to take care of his child and Arya promises to do so - I promise. Bringing the story full circle.

Arya then becomes regent of the child in KL, creating a great council and building a federation of kingdoms. She will have Jon/Dany's people (Davos, GreyWorm) to help her and Dany (Dorne, Reach, Iron islands)  and Stark allies (Vale, Riverlands) will support her. Bran will most probably continue being Lord of Winterfell and rule from the North.

Edited November 17, 2018 by anamika

[Eyes High]

2 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Don't expect any couples to have a happy ending in this series. That's pretty much GRRM's motto on these things. 

GRRM has never written anything like ASOIAF before, and in three of GRRM's acknowledged primary influences for ASOIAF--Lord of the Rings, the Memory, Sorrow and Thorn trilogy, and the historical Wars of the Roses--the alpha couple Jon/Dany analogues got married, ascended the throne, and lived reasonably happily ever after.

2 hours ago, anamika said:

If Sam's ending has to gel with his book ending, I doubt he's going to be lord of the reach.

 

It's just that Lord of the Reach seems tattooed all over his show arc, particularly now that TV Dickon has conveniently died to clear the path for him. We also know that Highgarden will appear in Season 8. It doesn't necessarily mean that Sam will end up Lord of the Reach and get Highgarden, but it is a potential indication that that will be the case. (It could be that TV Bronn or some other rando gets Highgarden, because why not?) As for the book ending, it seems likely that the Tyrells will be supplanted by some house the way that House Tyrell once supplanted the Gardeners, so Sam may well figure into that.

Edited November 17, 2018 by Eyes High

[bubble sparkly]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

GRRM has never written anything like ASOIAF before, and in three of GRRM's acknowledged primary influences for ASOIAF--Lord of the Rings, the Memory, Sorrow and Thorn trilogy, and the historical Wars of the Roses--the alpha couple Jon/Dany analogues got married, ascended the throne, and lived reasonably happily ever after.

Also, so far GRRM has played most of the common fantasy tropes pretty straight.  We have the secret prince raised as a lowly commoner, the exiled princess, the fat and bookish best friend, the father and/or father figure dying to kickstart the hero's journey from boy to man, and the hero possessing a super rare artefact that may prove useful in saving the world.  I don't see why the hero and his designated love interest living happily ever after is such a stretch, when GRRM has proven he has no problem following the usual tropes.

Plus, spoilers seem to indicate that Jaimie will get the redemption via heroic death treatment, despite some book fans being certain that GRRM would never kill Jaimie off because he made comments about dying being too easy or whatever.

Edited November 17, 2018 by bubble sparkly

[anamika]

9 hours ago, Eyes High said:

We also know that Highgarden will appear in Season 8. It doesn't necessarily mean that Sam will end up Lord of the Reach and get Highgarden, but it is a potential indication that that will be the case. (It could be that TV Bronn or some other rando gets Highgarden, because why not?) As for the book ending, it seems likely that the Tyrells will be supplanted by some house the way that House Tyrell once supplanted the Gardeners, so Sam may well figure into that.

GRRM has indicated that Willas and Garlan Tyrell have important roles to play:

Quote

And in the Tyrell family, Loras is not the eldest son in the books. There are two older brothers, Willas and Garlan. I didn’t just put them in for hoots and giggles, they have roles to play in the last two books, and they don’t exist in the show. I’ve said from the start I wish we had more hours, but showrunners [David Benioff and Dan Weiss] work 24/7, 12 months a year.

I doubt GRRM is going to wipe out the Tyrells or even supplant them in the books considering how powerful they are. Even house Lannister will continue in the books, if Jaime, Tyrion and Cersei die on the show.

Besides considering how all the main characters seemed doomed to an unhappy ending because 'bittersweet', I would  hope Sam at the least would get a happy ending. And he would hate ruling such a vast region as the Reach. He would be happier with his books. I really cannot see Sam ending up in charge of the Reach in the books. 

From Friki's leaks the two new guys in that so called trial at the Dragonpit could be from Dorne and the Reach - the show could just put in a new Tyrell there.

7 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

Also, so far GRRM has played most of the common fantasy tropes pretty straight.  We have the secret prince raised as a lowly commoner, the exiled princess, the fat and bookish best friend, the father and/or father figure dying to kickstart the hero's journey from boy to man, and the hero possessing a super rare artefact that may prove useful in saving the world.

Not to mention the straight out retelling of Disney's Beauty and the Beast with Sansa and the Hound

7 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

Plus, spoilers seem to indicate that Jaimie will get the redemption via heroic death treatment, despite some book fans being certain that GRRM would never kill Jaimie off because he made comments about dying being too easy or whatever.

The thing is that certain fans believe so much that GRRM is a trope buster that they are expecting endings that make no sense - at least to me. Jaime and Brienne on the Iron Throne at the end?!  How? Why?

I do think that the ending can be surprising considering how much the actors have harped on the fact that it is unpredictable. As per Sophie Turner, the one thing she liked about the ending was it's unpredictability. Joe has talked about how it is an ending that could be satisfying on reflection. Peter has said it can be tragic and beautiful. The only thing Kit has said about the next season is how the ending is going to be divisive and not everyone is going to like it.  David and Dan were anxious about what the actors thought when they were send their scripts. Bauer called it 'Brave' - indicating, I think, that not many viewers are going to be happy with it.

There's something about the ending that is going to be unpopular with the audience - maybe it is the Tyrion betrayal, maybe it is Jon/Dany dying, maybe it is one of Jon or Dany dying, maybe it's our heroes turning against one another. Hell, maybe we do get the possible original outline ending with Jon marrying both Dany and Arya!

Edit: @Eyes High I just checked a FF thread on the GoTlike location info, and according to them, that being the last scene was a rumor originating on FF. So maybe not true. And apparently Kit and Kristofer Hivju where spotted in Randalstown Forest around that time...

https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/8x0tcq/gotlikelocations_takes_a_look_back_to_the_oneday/

Edited November 17, 2018 by anamika

[GraceK]

Some People are so entrenched in this idea of GRRM as a trope subverter, and have heard bittersweet so many times they have convinced themselves that the ending HAS to tragic on the level of our main hero’s being ripped apart. It’s expected that Dany and Jon won’t be together and one of them will die. The real divisive ending will be them both living and ruling together.

Omg especially Danys survival. If she lives and rules ..???? the meltdowns will be hilarious.

Edited November 17, 2018 by GraceK

[anamika]

Correct me if I am wrong on this, but I think the prevailing theory that's existed in the book fandom (Asoiaf reddit, Westeros.org) over many years is that Jon/Dany will die and the three Starks (Sansa, Arya, Bran) will survive and end up in charge of Westeros. I think this is pretty much what is believed by most of the big name fans in ASoIaF fandom. 

I think this has something to do with GRRM wanting to name the last book, a Time for Wolves, the Starks being the good guys/heroes of the tale,  Jon/Dany being messianic characters doomed to die and a lot of hate/dislike for Dany in the book fandom which is overwhelmingly made up of Stark fans.  There is also this idea that Sansa, Arya and Bran deserve happy endings because the Starks have suffered,  but Jon/Dany surving and ending up together is too happy and 'Disney'. Jon/Dany  sitting on the throne together just seems so taboo to many of these folks. Like it's just not possible and trope buster GRRM most definitely will not be writing that ending.

GRRM definitely gives the impression that he is about subverting tropes. Someone pointed out this quote of his from 2008:

Quote

How do the tropes influence your writing?

GRRM: You have to be aware of them but you have to smash them with hammers and make up your own. Tolkien twisted an old cliché of elves (tiny faeries) into something else – met with resistance from his editors at first, arguing over what an elf or dwarf is. Now Tolkien is the cliché. Can’t just regurgitate them you have to do something with them.

Well, we will know next year, what's been in GRRM's head all these years and how he was planning on ending it.

Edited November 17, 2018 by anamika

[Eyes High]

5 hours ago, anamika said:

GRRM has indicated that Willas and Garlan Tyrell have important roles to play:

I doubt GRRM is going to wipe out the Tyrells or even supplant them in the books considering how powerful they are. Even house Lannister will continue in the books, if Jaime, Tyrion and Cersei die on the show.

From Friki's leaks the two new guys in that so called trial at the Dragonpit could be from Dorne and the Reach - the show could just put in a new Tyrell there.

Not to mention the straight out retelling of Disney's Beauty and the Beast with Sansa and the Hound

The thing is that certain fans believe so much that GRRM is a trope buster that they are expecting endings that make no sense - at least to me. Jaime and Brienne on the Iron Throne at the end?!  How? Why?

I do think that the ending can be surprising considering how much the actors have harped on the fact that it is unpredictable. As per Sophie Turner, the one thing she liked about the ending was it's unpredictability. Joe has talked about how it is an ending that could be satisfying on reflection. Peter has said it can be tragic and beautiful. The only thing Kit has said about the next season is how the ending is going to be divisive and not everyone is going to like it.  David and Dan were anxious about what the actors thought when they were send their scripts. Bauer called it 'Brave' - indicating, I think, that not many viewers are going to be happy with it.

There's something about the ending that is going to be unpopular with the audience - maybe it is the Tyrion betrayal, maybe it is Jon/Dany dying, maybe it is one of Jon or Dany dying, maybe it's our heroes turning against one another. Hell, maybe we do get the possible original outline ending with Jon marrying both Dany and Arya!

Edit: @Eyes High I just checked a FF thread on the GoTlike location info, and according to them, that being the last scene was a rumor originating on FF. So maybe not true. And apparently Kit and Kristofer Hivju where spotted in Randalstown Forest around that time...

https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/8x0tcq/gotlikelocations_takes_a_look_back_to_the_oneday/

1. The book Tyrells are powerful now, sure, but who expects that to last? The fate of the TV Martells likely telegraphs their ultimate fortunes in the books, and I tend to think the same of the TV Tyrells.

2. Dany/Drogo and Jaime/Brienne are also iterations of romance novel tropes.

3. There could be some other aspect of the ending (other than a Targ restoration) that’s surprising and divisive. Maybe the Stark siblings end up estranged for whatever reason.

4. Hee, Jon marrying both Dany and Arya certainly would be surprising!

5. I saw that, but I did wonder about the very light dusting of snow, particularly compared to the amounts they used for scenes like Bran and Meera’s escape from the wights.

[ElizaD]

I don't know about today's big name fans, but when I frequented westeros.org post-ASOS/pre-ADWD, there was no consensus about the ending except that one of the Starks would rule Winterfell. The rest was very flexible - Jon and/or Dany or their child, Tyrion and/or Sansa, a return to independent kingdoms (the democracy theory has only gained support through Show Dany's wheel speech, independence was still feudal rather than democractic in older theories because Westeros lacks everything that historically built up to democracy); rarely was it argued that J/D/Tyrion will all die and the younger Starks will rule the entire kingdom, as I've seen more often recently. Tyrion's betrayal was a consistent and plausible bit of speculation, but not a big one since there were other alternatives for Dany's betrayal for love. It's the show that has led to the endless use of the phrase "Disney ending" to describe Jon/Dany. I'm a grumpy veteran fan, and I preferred it when discussions were more "meh, that's a bit cliche for me, but it's absolutely a valid reading based on the existing foreshadowing, character arcs, and our fundamental knowledge of how narratives tend to work." Now anything that can be trashed as a trope is treated more like huge betrayal, as if GRRM hasn't already shown us he's got plenty of tropes he likes. If Jon/Dany end up ruling after stories that are all about their failures and successes as they learn about ruling, I'll be fine with that. I'm not a Targaryen fan, but at this point it's clearly become the logical ending supported by the narrative and that's more important than a twist only for the sake of a twist.

Didn't GRRM also say that the Dothraki Jorah killed in season 1 had a role to play? I think we still got the key bits in season 6 with bargain bin Drogo, and I expect the Tyrells and the Martells are similarly doomed even if the roads are different.

[anamika]

1 hour ago, ElizaD said:

I don't know about today's big name fans, but when I frequented westeros.org post-ASOS/pre-ADWD, there was no consensus about the ending except that one of the Starks would rule Winterfell.

Thanks for chipping in! Nice to have another grumpy veteran fan around. I used to hang around there about the same time period. I distinctly remember Westeros.org being Stark central, but yes, I agree there was not a definite consensus on the ending around then. There was a lot of resistance to Jon becoming King because of the secret prince trope. Then ADwD was released and the dislike for Dany increased. Dany did some questionable shit, Meereen was boring, Tyrion was dark, bitter and boring and Jon died. It was around that time, that I started seeing more of the Jon/Dany will die theories. Dany was criticized for her mishandling of Meereen and Jon's assassination and death creates a big question mark about his future.

I do find it funny, that in those days, the dislike for Dany was mainly from Jon/Stannis fans (Apple Martini!). These days most of the anti-Dany rhetoric is from Sansa fans who want Sansa to become the Queen of Westeros/North.

I agree with you that who rules and who dies and lives can be argued from a narrative viewpoint. For example, I can understand why folks think that Jon will die -  it's almost like he was given a second chance to come back and defeat the Others.  After that,  death takes him back. He's the character other than Bran, most closely connected to the Others and if anyone has to die defeating them, it should be him. Dany is harder - her story is the Iron Throne and getting her birthright back. And it does not make narrative sense for her to work towards the throne for 7 seasons only to be killed by the Others in the last season. And I can't see Cersei taking her down.

What I am not a fan of is arguing about which character makes it to the end based on he/she deserving a happy ending. Which character deserves a happy ending is purely subjective.

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

The book Tyrells are powerful now, sure, but who expects that to last? The fate of the TV Martells likely telegraphs their ultimate fortunes in the books, and I tend to think the same of the TV Tyrells.

I don't know if the show should be used to look at the last houses standing. As per Alexander Siddig, Doran and the Sandsnakes had more of a plot and story on the show, which was changed after they saw fan response to the sand snakes. Doran was then swiftly dispatched and Elia and the sand snakes soon after. I am pretty sure that the books are not going to wipe out the Tyrells and Martells - two important houses and possible allies for house Targaryen once Dany gets to Westeros. Unless house Targaryen is also getting wiped out.

Edited November 17, 2018 by anamika

[Eyes High]

10 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

Also, so far GRRM has played most of the common fantasy tropes pretty straight.  We have the secret prince raised as a lowly commoner, the exiled princess, the fat and bookish best friend, the father and/or father figure dying to kickstart the hero's journey from boy to man, and the hero possessing a super rare artefact that may prove useful in saving the world. 

Hee, yes. You forgot the elves otherworldly race with inhuman beauty and magical blood, the feisty, anachronistically feminist, ugly duckling tomboy (destined to become a superhot swan tomboy, of course), the evil, power-mad queen who gets progressively crazier, the seductive priestess who must have sex to work her dark magic, the magical pets with whom the heroes share a supernatural bond, the shapeshifting assassins...I could go on for quite some time.

I tend to think that people who think that ASOIAF is a daring, subversive take on fantasy tropes know absolutely nothing about fantasy. GRRM plays most of these tropes surprisingly straight.

Aside from fantasy, GRRM also plays several specific 1970s-era romance novel tropes more or less straight, which explains Dany/Drogo, Sandor/Sansa, and Jaime/Brienne. Given that GRRM's understanding of romance seems to be stuck in 1970s romance novels, I'm kind of scared as to how Jon/Dany is going to be treated in the books, to be honest.

Even Tyrion, praised for being such an original and innovative character, is little more than a take on a set of poor little rich boy cliches of the kind you'd find in any bad soap opera or pulp novel, with dwarfism thrown in. He's pretty much Chuck Bass from Gossip Girl. 

...I mean, these tropes are compelling (I can think of two poor little rich boy characters on teen dramas who pretty much ate the show due to their unexpected popularity), so I get why GRRM keeps going to the same well, but they're still tropes!

1 hour ago, ElizaD said:

It's the show that has led to the endless use of the phrase "Disney ending" to describe Jon/Dany.

I blame the "Disney ending" stuff on /Freefolk, which has sort of assumed Westeros.org's role in GOT/ASOIAF discussions now that the show has surpassed the books and Westeros.org BNFs (aka hardcore book purists) don't want to be spoiled and/or refuse to talk about the show out of anger on GRRM's behalf for what they see as the show ruining the books.

Quote

I'll be fine with that. I'm not a Targaryen fan, but at this point it's clearly become the logical ending supported by the narrative and that's more important than a twist only for the sake of a twist.

Joe Bauer (the VFX supervisor) said that looking at it objectively, the way the show ends is the way it must end. It therefore seems likely that whatever the ending is will be the inevitable result of everything that came before, and (to me at least), that suggests a Jon/Dany throne endgame. If the whole show is (according to GRRM) about Jon and Dany, and if Jon and Dany fall in love, and if Jon and Dany both have a claim to the throne, then isn't the logical endgame Jon and Dany uniting their claims and ascending the throne together after they vanquish the AOTD?

Quote

Didn't GRRM also say that the Dothraki Jorah killed in season 1 had a role to play? I think we still got the key bits in season 6 with bargain bin Drogo, and I expect the Tyrells and the Martells are similarly doomed even if the roads are different.

I agree. Willas and Garlan having a "role to play" in ASOIAF doesn't mean endgame. It could just mean that GRRM needs them for his plot in the two remaining books, just as he apparently needs Mago or whoever it was.

Edited November 17, 2018 by Eyes High

[YaddaYadda]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

I don't know if the show should be used to look at the last houses standing. As per Alexander Siddig, Doran and the Sandsnakes had more of a plot and story on the show, which was changed after they saw fan response to the sand snakes. Doran was then swiftly dispatched and Elia and the sand snakes soon after. I am pretty sure that the books are not going to wipe out the Tyrells and Martells - two important houses and possible allies for house Targaryen once Dany gets to Westeros. Unless house Targaryen is also getting wiped out.

I agree with this. There are a bunch of Tyrells. They do have an impressive family tree (not as impressive as the Frey one, mind you). Garlan is married, so there's nothing barring him from having an heir. Even if Mace's line becomes extinct, he has two sisters, uncles and cousins.

I don't see the Martells being wiped either.

[Wouter]

14 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

Also, so far GRRM has played most of the common fantasy tropes pretty straight.  We have the secret prince raised as a lowly commoner,

We have? Who? Certainly not Jon, who has been raised by a Lord alongside his own children in a big castle - and a noble bastard is still not a commoner. This was a plotpoint in books and show, when Jon arrived at Castle Black with his castle training to wipe the floor with his fellow recruits (until Donal Noye in the books and Tyrion in the show gave him a few pointers on how to do that better). Jon is not, and never was, a commoner.

If you mean Illyrio's Aegon, this is likely a fake prince rather than a secret prince.

 

Regarding westeros.org, I think Dany and Jon getting together has always been the prevailing theory. The ending of ADWD (with Jon getting stabbed) may have shook this belief a bit, I don' think there is/was a major consensus there on the ending of the books (other than that more and more people are coming to believe there never will be an ending, but S8 of the show).

[nikma]

I would take Dany and Jon getting together, over some "shocking" ending.

If they lose Tyrion, Jorah, direwolves, dragons, Tormund and some other close friends, while WF, KL and the rest of the Seven Kingdoms are in ruins, that is bittersweet and powerful ending, if executed well IMO. I don't need anything more than that. 

[Happy Harpy]

3 hours ago, Wouter said:

We have? Who? Certainly not Jon, who has been raised by a Lord alongside his own children in a big castle - and a noble bastard is still not a commoner.

Gendry fits. Play it straight again, Sam George! If only for the lulz (mine).

When I got interested in GoT, Jon/Dany was considered a crackship; Jon on the Throne or Dany on the throne were widespread theories but together as a couple? Nah. The few people who wrote fanfics about them got a virtual pat on the head, "there there": I clearly remember being surprised because the Jon/Dany parallels and probable hook-up all but jumped to my face and my ship-dar. AFAIR they only gained momentum with the show, especially from S5 on.

I think it's possible there will be another expedition beyond the ex-Wall in S8. The fleaks mentioning the altar were downright improbable but GoT showed the NK's Stonehenge several times, there must be a reason. Bran isn't the character's whose future I'm most anxious about but he might be the one whose role I'm most curious about, in part because it must be linked to the WW "mystery". He seems like such a wild card, even the fleakers didn't dare to touch his storyline too much. I hope he's acting emotionless and after they missed each other twice up North, I'd really like to see some Jon/Bran interaction where the latter isn't only the bomb dropping fairy.

Edited November 17, 2018 by Happy Harpy

[Minneapple]

I don't want a "shocking" ending necessarily, but I would like one that is an organic surprise, ie the elements would have been there and when you see it you go "ohhhhh NOW I see where that came from!" Jon and Dany ruling with the baby as their heir has been projected from a mile away, so at least make it a little bit more interesting than that.

[GraceK]

I think a surprise is coming, and its gonna have something to do with the WW and the NK.

Edited November 17, 2018 by GraceK

[nikma]

And Tyrion. 

[SimoneS]

4 hours ago, Wouter said:

We have? Who? Certainly not Jon, who has been raised by a Lord alongside his own children in a big castle - and a noble bastard is still not a commoner. This was a plotpoint in books and show, when Jon arrived at Castle Black with his castle training to wipe the floor with his fellow recruits (until Donal Noye in the books and Tyrion in the show gave him a few pointers on how to do that better). Jon is not, and never was, a commoner.

If you mean Illyrio's Aegon, this is likely a fake prince rather than a secret prince.

@bubble sparkly was making the point that the story of Jon's birth and upbringing is a common trope in the sci fantasy genre. Yes, he is a not typical commoner, but Jon is a prince whose true identity is hidden by his uncle to protect him from his enemies. In fact, Jon's story mirrors Aragorn's upbringing in the Lord of the Rings in many ways.   

Edited November 17, 2018 by SimoneS

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

I think a surprise is coming, and its gonna have something to do with the WW and the NK.

BoatsexBaby said as much. According to their source, the WWs are not simply weapons of mass destruction out of control. Their motivation will be revealed. The resolution is apparently brilliant and ties together every WW scene since Season 1.

BoatsexBaby has stopped short of claiming that this is the third WTF twist, but it sure sounds like it to me.

...I dunno about Tyrion. Friki released another video in which he offers a new “spoiler” that at Tyrion’s trial he has a very disheveled and ragged appearance, having been held prisoner for some time before his trial (where he is apparently tried for multiple crimes). So if you think Friki has good information, there’s that to consider. (BoatsexBaby is the only person who has provided confirmed information about S8 of all would-be leakers, and they have repeatedly said that their info conflicts with Friki’s, especially concerning the Dragonpit.)

NCW had that comment about some kind of reveal where he compared it to the revelation of the killer in a murder mystery. If you believe BoatsexBaby, this is a reference to the WWs’ motivation. If you believe Friki, it’s a reference to the revelation of Tyrion’s betrayal. So we will see.

BoatsexBaby jokingly speculated a while ago that we might see an uptick in HBO hyping a Tyrion betrayal after Friki’s “leak,” and indeed that is just what has happened. The “Betrayal” bit in the short teaser even had a shot of Tyrion at his trial. BoatsexBaby previously warned that we would see a lot of Mad Queen Dany and Dany Dies hype from HBO as well, and BoatsexBaby has been insistent that the former at least won’t happen (while also hinting that the latter is unlikely).

Edited November 18, 2018 by Eyes High

[GraceK]

18 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

BoatsexBaby said as much. According to their source, the WWs are not simply weapons of mass destruction out of control. Their motivation will be revealed. The resolution is apparently brilliant and ties together every WW scene since Season 1.

BoatsexBaby has stopped short of claiming that this is the third WTF twist, but it sure sounds like it to me.

...I dunno about Tyrion. Friki released another video in which he offers a new “spoiler” that at Tyrion’s trial he has a very disheveled and ragged appearance, having been held prisoner for some time before his trial (where he is apparently tried for multiple crimes). So if you think Friki has good information, there’s that to consider. (BoatsexBaby is the only person who has provided confirmed information about S8 of all would-be leakers, and they have repeatedly said that their info conflicts with Friki’s.)

I’m inclined to believe boatsexbaby. As you’ve said, she’s been right so far. Which makes me hopeful for the ending ?

[Eyes High]

9 minutes ago, GraceK said:

I’m inclined to believe boatsexbaby. As you’ve said, she’s been right so far. Which makes me hopeful for the ending ?

BoatsexBaby is the only would-be leaker who has a proven inside track on S8 and who has been right about anything for S8, and they have said that their info contradicts Friki’s (“especially” on the Dragonpit, which may or may not have been a slip on their part that they have info contradicting other things Friki has said, such as Tyrion being executed). If they can’t both be right, then I pick BoatsexBaby.

Edited November 18, 2018 by Eyes High

[bubble sparkly]

I still want to know if Friki's "source" has given him any actual proof of the these alleged Tyrion spoilers.  Because so far we still don't know why Dany and Jon are not at the trial or what Tyrion's betrayal actually is.

If someone had seen a script or was an extra in the DP scene etc., then I would think there would be some dialogue explaining J/D's absence.  If they were dead as a result of Tyrion's betrayal then surely a large part of the trial is going to be the Starks/Davos etc railing at Tyrion for getting J/D killed.  Alternatively, if baby Targ is getting birthed you would imagine there would be some comment, even if it's Tyrion asking where they are and someone snarking that J/D have more important matters to deal with right now.

Also, someone who had seen a script/was an extra would surely be able to spill the beans on what Tyrion's act of betrayal actually is.  One assumes part of the trial would be a detailed account of Tyrion's crimes, similar to Littlefinger last season.  Betraying the Starks, which is all Friki has hinted, could mean anything from actively aiding in the Winterfelll attack to destroying Sansa's bespoke outfits.  Friki keeps making random guesses like Tyrion shuts the gates to KL or sets off wildfire, but so far he doesn't seem to be suggesting that he knows for sure what the act of betrayal is.

I don't think a Tyrion betrayal and trial is out of the realm of possibility, largely because Tyrion having a final trial does fit in with the rule of three.  However, so far Friki hasn't provided one single thing to substantiate these leaks, and there seem to be large holes that someone in the know should be able to fill in but for whatever reason hasn't.

[WindyNights]

On 11/16/2018 at 4:38 PM, nikma said:

Henry Tudor was not a character in a fantasy story. Real history is not something that needs to make sense.

In this story Robert Baratheon, his brothers and wife are all usurpers and traitors. 

 

WF is also doomed. KL belongs to Targs because without them it would never exist. And building KL is far more impressive than WF. 

It does when the story's appeal is on how true to life it is.

KL is just as doomed as Winterfell.

Although that's quote the hyperbole. Winterfell is an ancient magic castle that's thousands of years old. I'm sorry but that's pretty damn special. And you're gonna compare it to any building in KL? 

GRRM already told us what he thinks about rightful kings. It's an illusion based on whatever you can convince people is true. That's pretty much what Varys' answer to his riddle is about. An answer that GRRM agrees with.

Edited November 18, 2018 by WindyNights

[WindyNights]

On 11/16/2018 at 7:08 PM, Eyes High said:

GRRM has never written anything like ASOIAF before, and in three of GRRM's acknowledged primary influences for ASOIAF--Lord of the Rings, the Memory, Sorrow and Thorn trilogy, and the historical Wars of the Roses--the alpha couple Jon/Dany analogues got married, ascended the throne, and lived reasonably happily ever after.

 

Sure but nothing is one for one and GRRM isn't just doing the War of the Roses(or else Jon would be Henry Tudor with Daenerys as Elizabeth of York which doesn't fit). He's also putting his own spin on it. Just read through his interviews and his short stories to know what GRRM is like as an author. 

GRRM has explicitly said that he prefers tragic romances. Check.

GRRM has explicitly said he prefers melancholic endings and sunsets to sunrises. Check.

Most of his short story romances end with the guy and girl ripped apart. Check.

Makes 100 references to love being treacherous within his books. Check.

Foreshadowing of Jon living a long and miserable life. Check.

Ambiguously worded prophecy of Daenery's death once she bears a child. 

The outline had a love triangle between Tyrion-Arya(now Daenerys)-Jon. A deadly love triangle. Check.

[Colorful Mess]

On 11/16/2018 at 9:00 PM, bubble sparkly said:

Also, so far GRRM has played most of the common fantasy tropes pretty straight.  We have the secret prince raised as a lowly commoner, the exiled princess, the fat and bookish best friend, the father and/or father figure dying to kickstart the hero's journey from boy to man, and the hero possessing a super rare artefact that may prove useful in saving the world.  I don't see why the hero and his designated love interest living happily ever after is such a stretch, when GRRM has proven he has no problem following the usual tropes.

Plus, spoilers seem to indicate that Jaimie will get the redemption via heroic death treatment, despite some book fans being certain that GRRM would never kill Jaimie off because he made comments about dying being too easy or whatever.

 

This ^ is a static description of what he's doing. He introduces the trope with the character, deconstructs it by having them do something atypical for their trope, then he gets them back to their trope in the end. As a result they are more complex and improved from the stock fantasy imitation. He's using trope deconstruction and reconstruction.

Dany is the dragon, deconstructed because she's quite different and unique from the way dragons are depicted in other stories, but she will still be the monster that the heroes must defeat, which is the reconstruction. Her exiled princess trope is at odds with the dragon one; in fact her being exiled only gives her more dragon-like traits, because she wants what was taken from her. Her similarities to Aragorn as a returned/exiled/hidden king figure are thin compared to Jon's similarities to Aragorn. Aragorn didn't know about his parents or that he was the heir until he was ~20 years old. 

Another one is Jaime. Based on appearance and physical abilities Jaime appears to be the perfect knight of the story but he is deconstructed as jaded, arrogant, dishonorable, and amoral. But then he gets his hand cut off and attempts to be the knight he always wanted to be, so his ending lies somewhere in the reconstruction of the true knight who does great deeds. 

Sansa. Her trope is the princess in the tower who wanted to marry a handsome prince and be a lady in a song/fairy tale. I'll let others figure that one out. 

Edited November 18, 2018 by Colorful Mess

[WindyNights]

On 11/16/2018 at 9:00 PM, bubble sparkly said:

Also, so far GRRM has played most of the common fantasy tropes pretty straight.  We have the secret prince raised as a lowly commoner, the exiled princess, the fat and bookish best friend, the father and/or father figure dying to kickstart the hero's journey from boy to man, and the hero possessing a super rare artefact that may prove useful in saving the world.  I don't see why the hero and his designated love interest living happily ever after is such a stretch, when GRRM has proven he has no problem following the usual tropes.

Plus, spoilers seem to indicate that Jaimie will get the redemption via heroic death treatment, despite some book fans being certain that GRRM would never kill Jaimie off because he made comments about dying being too easy or whatever.

What book are you reading? Jon wasn't raised as a lowly commoner at all.  He was raised in a castle with servants, got a high education and was trained with the Lord of Winterfell's heir and got to dance with noble ladies etc. Jon never went hungry or lacked for shelter. He had it made there. Literally, a big part of first book is about making Jon less of an arrogant, spoiled shit because he felt better than all the commoners at the Night's Watch.

Anyways, GRRM self-describes himself as a trope-breaker. 

How do the tropes influence your writing?

GRRM: You have to be aware of them but you have to smash them with hammers and make up your own. Tolkien twisted an old cliché of elves (tiny faeries) into something else - met with resistance from his editors at first, arguing over what an elf or dwarf is. Now Tolkien is the cliché. Can’t just regurgitate them you have to do something with them.

---------------

And I mean just take a look at the page on TVT. He plays with tropes all the time.

 

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/DeconstructedTrope/ASongOfIceAndFire

 

GRRM's not giving Jaime redemption through death either. The point about redemption is that GRRM doesn't know if it's possible and he won't give an answer like that so you decide whether Jaime is redeemed. The show is definitely going to just make a commotion about Jaime being redeemed now in death but that's not the intention for GRRM. GRRM's goal behind things is to ask questions not give answers.

From So Spake Martin:

Since he(GRRM) was going on so much about Jaime as "exploration of evil" (and I certainly don't think Jaime is evil anymore!) I kind of tried to ask "Do you think he's changed?" to get him to talk about Jaime's redemption arc, so he said something like he wanted to explore the concept of forgiveness and whether it's ever possible to be forgiven for doing such horrible things, and that his goal was to ask the question, not give an answer.

[ElizaD]

17 hours ago, anamika said:

Thanks for chipping in! Nice to have another grumpy veteran fan around. I used to hang around there about the same time period. I distinctly remember Westeros.org being Stark central, but yes, I agree there was not a definite consensus on the ending around then. There was a lot of resistance to Jon becoming King because of the secret prince trope. Then ADwD was released and the dislike for Dany increased. Dany did some questionable shit, Meereen was boring, Tyrion was dark, bitter and boring and Jon died. It was around that time, that I started seeing more of the Jon/Dany will die theories. Dany was criticized for her mishandling of Meereen and Jon's assassination and death creates a big question mark about his future.

I do find it funny, that in those days, the dislike for Dany was mainly from Jon/Stannis fans (Apple Martini!). These days most of the anti-Dany rhetoric is from Sansa fans who want Sansa to become the Queen of Westeros/North.

A blast from the past! I drifted away from book-focused fandom after the post-ADWD high when it was already clear that the show continuing to get ratings as good as season 1 was the only hope of ever getting to know the ending. ADWD made me dislike Dany, for the common reasons you mention, but the show's Jon/Dany basically gave me what I wanted: someone who makes her stop and think for a while about the whys and hows before using her fire and blood-ness to get things done. I remember a time when Stannis as Hand to King Jon seemed to be a fairly popular new theory, but when millions have watched Shireen die as the Iphigenia of Westeros, any book speculation that pretends we don't already know the key bits (she burns, he dies) seems pointless. It's also been interesting to see how the release of GRRM's original outline has affected theories: to me, Jon/Arya and Jon/Sansa are 2010s theories, while Jon/Dany could be guessed early because of prophecies and basic logic (young main hero without viable longterm love interest + main heroine ditto? yeah, GRRM is indeed going there).

After the finale airs, it's going to feel so incredible to be able to say "yes, I was right about that!" or "damn it, I hate that I was wrong about that!" sixteen years after I first read the books.

About the White Walkers and a possible final revelation, I dunno, climate change stuff? That would be "important" as someone was quoted saying at one point, but they're such non-characters that almost any revelation will be both surprising and unsurprising to me: surprising because I wasn't able to guess it, unsurprising because I'm not emotionally invested in what is revealed about them. Tolkien's orcs had more pagetime and individuality and they are the ur-example of Always Evil fantasy monsters.

[nikma]

Jon is not a commoner, but he is outcast, which serves the same purpose.

[Eyes High]

5 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Sure but nothing is one for one and GRRM isn't just doing the War of the Roses(or else Jon would be Henry Tudor with Daenerys as Elizabeth of York which doesn't fit). He's also putting his own spin on it. Just read through his interviews and his short stories to know what GRRM is like as an author. 

I’m aware of what GRRM is like as an author, which is why I can confidently state that he has never written anything like ASOIAF before and that therefore his stated inspirations for ASOIAF, including the work he said inspired his ending (LOTR), are a more reliable guide for where he is likely going with the ending than his previous works. 

 

5 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Anyways, GRRM self-describes himself as a trope-breaker. 

How do the tropes influence your writing?

GRRM: You have to be aware of them but you have to smash them with hammers and make up your own. Tolkien twisted an old cliché of elves (tiny faeries) into something else - met with resistance from his editors at first, arguing over what an elf or dwarf is. Now Tolkien is the cliché. Can’t just regurgitate them you have to do something with them.

---------------

And I mean just take a look at the page on TVT. He plays with tropes all the time.

As GRRM would say, words are wind, and he demonstrably regurgitates many tropes without doing much of anything with them. He may proudly claim to be a trope-breaker, but once you get past Ned’s death, not really...? And even Ned’s death is a trope in relation to the Starks’ character arcs.

Edited November 18, 2018 by Eyes High

[nikma]

Ned Stark's death was a nice trick. But it's like Dumbledore's or Obi Wan's death. Or Bloodraven's death in S6. Death of mentor or father figure is a common trope in fantasy, but he put him in a position of main character of the first book, which was smart trick, but real heroes of this story were always Daenerys and Jon.

 

I would say that in the show Robb's death was more shocking because they made him equally important as Jon, Dany, Arya in the first 3 seasons. In the books he is clearly minor character.

[SimoneS]

41 minutes ago, nikma said:

Ned Stark's death was a nice trick. But it's like Dumbledore's or Obi Wan's death. Or Bloodraven's death in S6. Death of mentor or father figure is a common trope in fantasy, but he put him in a position of main character of the first book, which was smart trick, but real heroes of this story were always Daenerys and Jon.

Exactly. In The Dragonbone Chair, the first book of Tad Williams’ Memory, Sorrow and Thorn series that influenced Martin, Morgenes, the mentor of Seoman, our young hero (and yes, secret prince) is murdered by the story's villain traumatizing him and sending him fleeing on his journey. I was pretty shocked with Morgenes died because I thought he was going to groom our young hero into adulthood. Now that I have read hundreds of science fantasy books, I am only surprised when the mentor actually survives to the end of the story. 

Edited November 18, 2018 by SimoneS

[anamika]

8 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

Sansa. Her trope is the princess in the tower who wanted to marry a handsome prince and be a lady in a song/fairy tale. I'll let others figure that one out. 

 

Help me out here because I am not able to figure this one out. Are you saying that the character who bragged to Arya about being queen and who betrayed her family so that she could marry the handsome prince and become queen is going to end the series by marrying the handsome prince, becoming a queen and a lady in a song/fairy tale? That's where GRRM is going with Sansa in the series?  I can't wait to see what he does with Jaime and Theon in that case!! Jaime may very well end up on the Iron Throne!

Are you saying that GRRM pairing her off with the ugly guys like the Hound and Tyrion, Sansa realizing that looks are not everything and that handsome guys can be horrible and ugly guys can be good, and that she does not want to be desired for her claim will have no effect on her endgame?  I thought her story was about her learning that appearances can be deceptive, about where power actually lies and how to be a behind the scenes political player. 

In the five books since Sansa wanted marry the handsome prince, the character herself has changed and no longer wants those same things. Like all the other characters who started naive and foolish and have changed over time to realize that life is not what they expected.

GRRM has thus far given Sansa three options with respect to marriage - Tyrion, Hound or SweetRobin/Harry the Heir. I don't see any trope reconstruction here.  If it's not any of them and she's stuck as lady of WF on the show, then she will probably marry some nobody in the future to carry on the Stark line.

It's interesting, but in the original outline, GRRM singles out Sansa and Tyrion as being the two characters of dubious loyalty to their respective houses. Tyrion keeps turning against his family and Sansa betrays her. But in the final season, it looks like it's both these characters who will be siding with their families. Last season, Tyrion seemed to be helping the Lannisters and Sansa finally chooses family over power.  Peter Dinklage gave an interview where he mentions how Tyrion was wrong to go against the Lannisters in the early seasons and there are strong hints that if he betrays Dany and the Starks it will be for his family. Similarly Sophie Turner has mentioned several times about threats to Sansa's family this season and and how she has to face that blah, blah. Maybe Sansa and Tyrion face off against each other to protect their respective houses/families next season.

Edited November 18, 2018 by anamika

[WearyTraveler]

20 minutes ago, anamika said:

Maybe Sansa and Tyrion face off against each other to protect their respective houses/families next season.

Man, that would cause a fandom explosion of epic proportions!!

[SimoneS]

6 hours ago, Eyes High said:

As GRRM would say, words are wind, and he demonstrably regurgitates many tropes without doing much of anything with them. He may proudly claim to be a trope-breaker, but once you get past Ned’s death, not really...? And even Ned’s death is a trope in relation to the Starks’ character arcs.

 

GRRM more than regurgitates tropes, I was rereading some of the LOTR mythology and was struck by how much of many elements of his story have been "borrowed" from Tolkien. Tolkien even writes about a Long Winter that devastates the huge areas of Middle-Earth (sound familiar?). I actually don't think that there is anything wrong with writers using ideas from authors they admire for their own stories.  After all, Tolkien used his creativity to merge traditional legends and tales into the story that became LOTR. But Martin is full of it when he claims that he is breaking tropes and improving the work of other authors like Tolkien, especially when he seems unable to complete his story.

Edited November 18, 2018 by SimoneS

[Wouter]

21 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

When I got interested in GoT, Jon/Dany was considered a crackship; Jon on the Throne or Dany on the throne were widespread theories but together as a couple? Nah. The few people who wrote fanfics about them got a virtual pat on the head, "there there": I clearly remember being surprised because the Jon/Dany parallels and probable hook-up all but jumped to my face and my ship-dar. AFAIR they only gained momentum with the show, especially from S5 on.

 

In book fandom, Jon/Dany was considered to be the most likely outcome almost from the start. Especially after it became quite clear that Robb (Jon's main competition for being the main male hero) was doomed, sometime around Dany's (book) visions in the House of the Undying. It's only Jon getting murdered by his own men, and the associated (suspected/possible) consequences of being magically revived, that may have caused some doubt post-ADWD. That Jon, as son of Lyanna and chief defender of the realm, would join forces with Dany and her dragons was very likely.

20 hours ago, SimoneS said:

@bubble sparkly was making the point that the story of Jon's birth and upbringing is a common trope in the sci fantasy genre. Yes, he is a not typical commoner, but Jon is a prince whose true identity is hidden by his uncle to protect him from his enemies. In fact, Jon's story mirrors Aragorn's upbringing in the Lord of the Rings in many ways.   

His true identity was hidden, OK. But it is important to realise that Jon lived a very privileged life, one which made him destined to be lord commander of the Night's Watch from the moment he decided to join that order. Mormont made him his de-facto successor, mostly because he is a Stark. An acknowledged bastard is not a "lowly commoner" (see also: Edric Stone, Sandsnakes,...). Pyp and Grenn, those are lowly commoners. 

19 hours ago, Eyes High said:

...I dunno about Tyrion. Friki released another video in which he offers a new “spoiler” that at Tyrion’s trial he has a very disheveled and ragged appearance, having been held prisoner for some time before his trial (where he is apparently tried for multiple crimes). So if you think Friki has good information, there’s that to consider. (BoatsexBaby is the only person who has provided confirmed information about S8 of all would-be leakers, and they have repeatedly said that their info conflicts with Friki’s, especially concerning the Dragonpit.)

What information by BSB was confirmed?

10 hours ago, WindyNights said:

GRRM already told us what he thinks about rightful kings. It's an illusion based on whatever you can convince people is true. That's pretty much what Varys' answer to his riddle is about. An answer that GRRM agrees with.

Agreed. Power is make believe. 

[Colorful Mess]

3 hours ago, anamika said:

GRRM has thus far given Sansa three options with respect to marriage - Tyrion, Hound or SweetRobin/Harry the Heir. I don't see any trope reconstruction here.  If it's not any of them and she's stuck as lady of WF on the show, then she will probably marry some nobody in the future to carry on the Stark line.

If the argument is that the author is using straightforward tropes for everyone else, that has to be applied consistently. It can't be everyone meets back at their original tropes - except Sansa. The best explanation is that the people whom you list are the deconstruction before the reconstruction. She encounters many other princes, ser's, lords, and highborns who smash her princess trope story to bits. It starts with Joffrey; Harry is just another failed "ser" like Lancel and Dontos; Sweetrobin is the heir whom his evil "father" is attempting to use/discard like Tywin did to Tyrion, and the Hound is an aromantic/platonic BATB so that is also a deconstruction. I think it will likely come back to the Ashford tourney theory and the focus on Sansa's endgame, which was noted ages ago. As soon as fAegon was dropped from the show, I went hmmmmm. If not fAegon/Sansa then Jon/Sansa becomes more likely, who would be a reconstructed Aragorn/Arwen. Elrond was Aragorn's uncle (although Aragorn had many generations between them) and Arwen was that uncle's daughter. As I've said before I'm not convinced Jon/Dany is the epic romance of the series. I think its a parody of that. Something to the effect of Quentyn/Dany. They pulled out all the romantic stops for a fake ship, Greyworm/Missandei, and used more romantic TV "show and tells" for them than anything Jon/Dany had on screen, which is fucking weird. I thought they were the point of the series?

On another note, even if we disagree, I appreciate all of these discussions with old time fans who combine book knowledge, and show knowledge. W.org got tedious for me because it was non-stop show bashing. I like to use the show to predict the books since we'll probably never see the end of the series in book form. *sob*

Edited November 18, 2018 by Colorful Mess

[bubble sparkly]

If Jon and Sansa were going to end up together, I would have thought there should have been some sexual tension and smoldering moments with them before now. Instead D & D have shown that Jon and Sansa tolerate each other but don’t seem to like each other a great deal. Who can forget last season when Jon told Sansa to shut her trap and stop disrespecting him in front of the lords, or when Sansa told Jon he was acting like Joffrey.

If Jon and Dany making heart eyes at each other, holding hands, discussing pregnancy and having sex makes them a parody of a romance, then I don’t know what one can call two siblings who haven’t expressed even the remotest scintilla of romantic interest in each other.

[WindyNights]

6 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I’m aware of what GRRM is like as an author, which is why I can confidently state that he has never written anything like ASOIAF before and that therefore his stated inspirations for ASOIAF, including the work he said inspired his ending (LOTR), are a more reliable guide for where he is likely going with the ending than his previous works. 

 

As GRRM would say, words are wind, and he demonstrably regurgitates many tropes without doing much of anything with them. He may proudly claim to be a trope-breaker, but once you get past Ned’s death, not really...? And even Ned’s death is a trope in relation to the Starks’ character arcs.

Just look at Song for Lya. Who are the main characters? Robb and Lyanna. What's the story about? How consuming love can be so much so that Lyanna dies for it by choosing to commit suicide. 

Robb Stark and Lyanna Stark are based on those characters and they die because of love too. Both dead at 16 because they married the wrong person at the wrong time and it gets their families destroyed.

 

Here is GRRM's thought process behind how he writes:

 

GEORGE R.R. MARTIN: Bran is the first viewpoint character. In the back of their heads, people are thinking Bran is the hero of the story. He’s young King Arthur. We’re going to follow this young boy – and then, boom: You don’t expect something like that to happen to him. So that was successful [laughs].
 

GEORGE R.R. MARTIN: I knew it almost from the beginning. Not the first day, but very soon. I’ve said in many interviews that I like my fiction to be unpredictable. I like there to be considerable suspense. I killed Ned in the first book and it shocked a lot of people. I killed Ned because everybody thinks he’s the hero and that, sure, he’s going to get into trouble, but then he’ll somehow get out of it. The next predictable thing is to think his eldest son is going to rise up and avenge his father. And everybody is going to expect that. So immediately [killing Robb] became the next thing I had to do.

6 hours ago, nikma said:

Ned Stark's death was a nice trick. But it's like Dumbledore's or Obi Wan's death. Or Bloodraven's death in S6. Death of mentor or father figure is a common trope in fantasy, but he put him in a position of main character of the first book, which was smart trick, but real heroes of this story were always Daenerys and Jon.

 

I would say that in the show Robb's death was more shocking because they made him equally important as Jon, Dany, Arya in the first 3 seasons. In the books he is clearly minor character.

GEORGE R.R. MARTIN: Bran is the first viewpoint character. In the back of their heads, people are thinking Bran is the hero of the story. He’s young King Arthur. We’re going to follow this young boy – and then, boom: You don’t expect something like that to happen to him. So that was successful [laughs].
 

GEORGE R.R. MARTIN: I knew it almost from the beginning. Not the first day, but very soon. I’ve said in many interviews that I like my fiction to be unpredictable. I like there to be considerable suspense. I killed Ned in the first book and it shocked a lot of people. I killed Ned because everybody thinks he’s the hero and that, sure, he’s going to get into trouble, but then he’ll somehow get out of it. The next predictable thing is to think his eldest son is going to rise up and avenge his father. And everybody is going to expect that. So immediately [killing Robb] became the next thing I had to do.

[tangerine95]

3 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said:

If Jon and Sansa were going to end up together, I would have thought there should have been some sexual tension and smoldering moments with them before now. Instead D & D have shown that Jon and Sansa tolerate each other but don’t seem to like each other a great deal. Who can forget last season when Jon told Sansa to shut her trap and stop disrespecting him in front of the lords, or when Sansa told Jon he was acting like Joffrey.

If Jon and Dany making heart eyes at each other, holding hands, discussing pregnancy and having sex makes them a parody of a romance, then I don’t know what one can call two siblings who haven’t expressed even the remotest scintilla of romantic interest in each other.

I agree.If there's one thing I feel certain of in the last season it's that Jon and Sansa aren't going to be romantic and were never intended as romantic.I get crack shipping them because two pretty people with chemistry but like I don't understand some of the certainty I see that this is happening when there's been zero indication and Jon is literally in love with someone else with 6 episodes to go until the end.

[Callista]

1 hour ago, Colorful Mess said:

If the argument is that the author is using straightforward tropes for everyone else, that has to be applied consistently. It can't be everyone meets back at their original tropes - except Sansa. The best explanation is that the people whom you list are the deconstruction before the reconstruction. She encounters many other princes, ser's, lords, and highborns who smash her princess trope story to bits. It starts with Joffrey; Harry is just another failed "ser" like Lancel and Dontos; Sweetrobin is the heir whom his evil "father" is attempting to use/discard like Tywin did to Tyrion, and the Hound is an aromantic/platonic BATB so that is also a deconstruction. I think it will likely come back to the Ashford tourney theory and the focus on Sansa's endgame, which was noted ages ago. As soon as fAegon was dropped from the show, I went hmmmmm. If not fAegon/Sansa then Jon/Sansa becomes more likely, who would be a reconstructed Aragorn/Arwen. Elrond was Aragorn's uncle (although Aragorn had many generations between them) and Arwen was that uncle's daughter. As I've said before I'm not convinced Jon/Dany is the epic romance of the series. I think its a parody of that. Something to the effect of Quentyn/Dany. They pulled out all the romantic stops for a fake ship, Greyworm/Missandei, and used more romantic TV "show and tells" for them than anything Jon/Dany had on screen, which is fucking weird. I thought they were the point of the series?

I disagree with all of this and with your statement that Sansa's "trope is the princess in the tower who wanted to marry a handsome prince and be a lady in a song/fairy tale."  I think that's too incomplete a description to constitute a real trope. Her trope is more that of the beautiful, initially shallow princess who eventually realizes that good looks do not always mean good character, and vice versa. So it makes more sense for her to end up with someone whom she had misjudged at first, such as Tyrion or the Hound.  But I also think that that trope could be deconstructed to some extent if she actually ends up single, realizing that she doesn't need a prince (handsome or not) in the first place.  And on a side note, it would be even more of a deconstruction if Arya, the tomboyish princess who never thought of getting married, is the one who ends up in a romantic relationship, while Sansa chooses to be on her own.

 

Quote

 

Edited November 18, 2018 by Callista

[Minneapple]

17 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said:

If Jon and Sansa were going to end up together, I would have thought there should have been some sexual tension and smoldering moments with them before now. Instead D & D have shown that Jon and Sansa tolerate each other but don’t seem to like each other a great deal. Who can forget last season when Jon told Sansa to shut her trap and stop disrespecting him in front of the lords, or when Sansa told Jon he was acting like Joffrey.

 

I thought Jon and Sansa would be a possibility before season 6, but since their reunion it's clear that ain't never happening. I don't much care who Jon is paired with, but I do think that Kit and Sophie have better chemistry than Kit and Emilia. But then I think Kit has better chemistry with anyone over Emilia, even Joe Dempsie. 

However, I think Jon and Sansa do more than tolerate each other. Jon did leave Sansa in charge of the North, and she did tell him that he's good at this whole king thing. I think they're just figuring out how to be siblings after not really knowing each other despite sharing a childhood.

And as for killing the father trope, usually that happens when the hero is ready to be his own man. That wasn't really the case for Robb, so it was an inverted trope in that way. Plus Ned died with Lyanna's secret. Usually the father figure dies when his own journey is finished, and that's not the case in Ned's death.

Edited November 18, 2018 by Minneapple

[BadAssRobinArryn]

22 hours ago, Eyes High said:

 

...I dunno about Tyrion. Friki released another video in which he offers a new “spoiler” that at Tyrion’s trial he has a very disheveled and ragged appearance, having been held prisoner for some time before his trial (where he is apparently tried for multiple crimes). So if you think Friki has good information, there’s that to consider. (BoatsexBaby is the only person who has provided confirmed information about S8 of all would-be leakers, and they have repeatedly said that their info conflicts with Friki’s, especially concerning the Dragonpit.)

 

I am reasonably sure that Friki had seen pics. That would totally explain why he can correctly describe one of the characters/actors involved without knowing his name.