Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[bubble sparkly]

42 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Again with the “You may be surprised by the obvious though.” Iain wants Dany on the throne, but thinks we will be surprised. This doesn't feel to me like Dany dies, but clearly there is twist.

Maybe the super shocking twist is Dany and Jon ruling together lol? Obviously this is a pretty popular fandom theory but so far the show has not raised the possibility of two people ruling jointly from the current crop of heroes. Perhaps we are supposed to be surprised beyond belief when Sansa comes up with the shocking and novel idea for D/J to marry, unite their claims and rule jointly lol?

[anamika]

9 hours ago, Wouter said:

I very much doubt a scene set up for the historical Italica site would change from an action scene to a dialogue scene. Action scenes are very complicated and sites like this have to be booked way in advance, and I guess the request has to match with what is actually done or the permit may become invalid. In general, while some scenes may change a bit, they arent't going in planning to film the action parts like Hardhome or Blackwater and come out having filmed merely dialogue instead.

Friki explicitly claimed HBO went to massive lengths to mislead people. This was a crucial part of his leak and he went into this extensively in his (English) video. If he is wrong about this, there is no reason to assume he is right about anything else he said, especially not if it seems to contradict other info.

 

As BoatsexBaby explains they only got permission to film at Italica in March - what if they had not got permission? Would the script have changed? Maybe they wrote different scenes and filmed what they could at Italica in the time and setting they were able to build there? Maybe they planned for shooting two scenes and cut down to one, filming the other on the KL set in Belfast.

Friki himself is adding, picking and interpreting from what his sources are telling him. Added to that, I am not sure how much is getting through in his English to Spanish translations. For example he is saying HBO is trying mislead us based on this:

Quote

The Unsullied extras did a rehearsal full of military moves and it looked like they were preparing for an action scene, but after all they did not film it. The extra thought he was going to film something like that when he released the info. Then, the shooting ended and all they did is guarding Tyrion.

So based on the extra  not filming something he was expected to film, Friki is saying that HBO is trying to deceive us. That's not his source telling him - haha, HBO is trying to fool you. That's his interpretation based on the extras not doing something that they went there to do. But it could as well be a change of plans by the directors to not film something.

Quote

Q: Couldn't they be just two different scenes in the same location?

BsB: it's possible, but it's a long shot. The Dragonpit sequence I am referring to happens prior to the Epilogue, as part of the epic finale of the Great War/KL battle. I am doubtful they would write 2 Dragonpit scenes in the script, when they didn't even get the official permission to shoot in Roman Italica till March 21st this year - Source.

Q: Were you told that your VFX heavy Dragonpit scene was indeed filmed in Spain or is it possible that the action sequences have actually been done at Magheramorne? They can put anything in the background with those giant green screens. Friki said something about tricking people by leaving the lights on in the Itálica amphitheater at night. Well, maybe they did some filming: of the empty amphitheater at night for the background of the action sequences from Northern Ireland?

BsB: it's certainly possible. I had the same speculation esp. for the week from May 3rd-May 9th when Italica was completely shut down. The platform in the Dragonpit was already built by the last week of April and the actors started filming in Italica from May 10th (from what we know).

From my post on May 20th:

·  I was told that the Spain filming was for KL battle and would involve Unsullied and Wildling/Dothraki extras among others. Part of this battle has already been shot in Belfast in front of the green screen. Some of the scenes filmed in Magheramorne quarry are supposed to be in KL – The Jaime/Brienne one, the one we saw with someone fighting in the center surrounded by horses, Melisandre on a horse, etc. I wasn’t sure if those scenes are in the Dragonpit though or elsewhere in KL.

· The Spain filming had started in the first week of May before majority of cast/crew even arrived. I am guessing they filmed shots for vfx in the Dragonpit.

· There were night shoots in Seville on a few days to finish the battle scenes which had been shot in the Quarry.

As of May 20th, the only information I had for the Dragonpit was in regards to the whole of Spain filming, that it would be for the KL battle. Sometime between that and my post on July 19th, I was told that the Dragonpit sequence will be part of the finale of the Great War/KL battle in Ep 6, is a VFX-heavy sequence and will blow everyone's mind.

Long story short, the production filmed something in the Dragonpit in Spain (VFX shots or otherwise) that makes my source 100% certain that their info is not a leak trap.

https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/9h1coo/a_potential_issue_regarding_the_much_discussed/e6c51qh/

Edited September 21, 2018 by anamika

[nikma]

Friki says there's one more person that filmed at the Dragonpit and he will soon reveal who it is.

[bubble sparkly]

Great, one person who will probably turn out to be a random nobody lol!  I would be much more impressed if Friki would explain:

• the exact details of Tyrion's alleged betrayal; and
• where Jon and Dany are (i.e. dead, dealing with the birth of baby Tag, have absconded to somewhere warm with a stash of cash etc.)

Edited September 21, 2018 by bubble sparkly

[nikma]

Yeah, even if Friki is not right and BSB is and there is no action in Dragonpit, but the scene will "blow our minds" where the fuck are Dany and Jon? 

[SimoneS]

3 hours ago, nikma said:

Yeah, even if Friki is not right and BSB is and there is no action in Dragonpit, but the scene will "blow our minds" where the fuck are Dany and Jon? 

They must be either dead or with their dragons. 

[Wouter]

19 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

To my recollection, he said in his first Q&A that Joe Dempsie/Gendry didn't film, some people opposed that the actor said he did, and the Big HBO Conspiracy came afterwards to justify/explain that contradiction.

[...]

I don't see how mentioning the filming unit demonstrates that Friki has some info. Was it verified since that the Wolf unit filmed? Was it reported somewhere, prior to his claim, or is it new info? I remembered that the Seville crew posted an instagram picture about how they finished filming GoT, but it seems the picture had been deleted since (the one mentioned here I think). Was it the Dragon or Wolf unit, or yet another one? That, I sadly forgot. 

[...]

I also disagree that either everything is true, either everything is false. Friki can have a couple of info and embroider, or be fed both lies and truths etc.

Those details spoiled the plot, a surprise return and a surprise resurrection. Gendry filming or not in Seville? Spoils nothing and even less than nothing according to Friki leaks.

 

I don't know about what he said in Spanish, but in his first English video he right away told that HBO has been attempting to mislead (specifically mentioning Kit being in Seville but never being in costume, on top of that he claimed already then that HBO brought lots of actors to Seville that did not film), "but the secret is too big to keep". He did not mention Gendry in that video, unless I missed it. 

Which is also an answer to your last line: Gendry being there or not spoils nothing, but it does show that Friki is going all out because he only mentioned it in his second video to illustrate just to what lengths HBO is going.  It also leaves himself open to people who are looking for inconsistencies, as may have been found with Joe and/or with Bran's supposed recall line. 

I don't even know if it was Wolf unit, but it is another detail that could expose Friki if he is lying (or his source is). It's his attempt to convince his viewers.

It may be that some info is true and some is false, but from our perspective that would make his leak worthless. Even total fleakers may get some things right by accident, but as we don't know what is wrong and what is right, we can't count on it.

There are maybe two things going a bit against Friki though:

-he does seem to get more info from week to week, which is a bit convenient to release it piecemeal on his youtube channel. Wouldn't his source have given it all at the same time, especially with filming over?

-It has been pointed out on Freefolk that if the line "I never bet on my family" is that important, GRRM would have made them include it in S1 (when he was still working relatively close with D&D) and D&D could alternatively have found a way to work it in S2 or S3. 

18 hours ago, Eyes High said:

"

...There are more examples, but that's the gist. And since we were talking about Robin's odds of marrying Sansa in the books or show upthread, there's also this from the TWOW Alayne chapter:

If the gods are good and he lives long enough to wed, his wife will admire his hair, surely. 

...Nice knowing you, Robin.

 

I'm not sure Robin is a goner. Filming seems to indicate he makes it quite far in the show. His fate (or at least, LF's apparent designs for that) is also quite likely to be a major cause of Sansa and LF falling out (in the books), and we already know who comes out on top of that conflict.

17 hours ago, WindyNights said:

I wouldn't doubt it if D & D decided to combine Harry and Robert together. If characters can die in the show and live in the books then maybe there are characters that die in the books and live in the show.

I think Harry the Heir has far less chance to make it, in the books. Robert may outlive him.

17 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

Maybe the super shocking twist is Dany and Jon ruling together lol? Obviously this is a pretty popular fandom theory but so far the show has not raised the possibility of two people ruling jointly from the current crop of heroes. Perhaps we are supposed to be surprised beyond belief when Sansa comes up with the shocking and novel idea for D/J to marry, unite their claims and rule jointly lol?

Allthough I think the mainstream audience would expect that (at least after S7), I could see theory boards being shocked by that outcome (assuming it actually sticks)!  Iain Glen teased this recently by saying in an interview we may be surprised by the obvious. Which could be toying with the people who expect all kinds of subverting/brave/radical/shocking endings (only to get the long expected Jon+Dany ending), or could be saying we will get an ending that is obvious yet with a surprising twist. Not that he would give us the ending in an interview so take it for what it's worth.

13 hours ago, anamika said:

As BoatsexBaby explains they only got permission to film at Italica in March - what if they had not got permission? Would the script have changed? Maybe they wrote different scenes and filmed what they could at Italica in the time and setting they were able to build there? Maybe they planned for shooting two scenes and cut down to one, filming the other on the KL set in Belfast.

[...]

So based on the extra  not filming something he was expected to film, Friki is saying that HBO is trying to deceive us. That's not his source telling him - haha, HBO is trying to fool you. That's his interpretation based on the extras not doing something that they went there to do. But it could as well be a change of plans by the directors to not film something.

 

 

If they hadn't gotten permission they would presumably have a plan B, probably filming a slightly different scene in a different location to get a similar point across. It's unlikely they didn't have some advance warning about their chances, though, even if some final signature was missing.

Friki is not basing his HBO claims solely on the word of extras. He claimed explicitly that the actors for Gendry, Jaquen, the Waif, Cersei, Jon, lord Royce, Yara were in Seville yet did not film. He claimed they left on flood lights to fool people into thinking they were doing night shoots. He claimed that an action scene was practiced for but only a dialogue scene was filmed. 

Right or wrong, Friki isn't hedging his bets and there is no room for backtracking.

Edited September 21, 2018 by Wouter

[nikma]

I don't know if Friki is right or wrong, but Tyrion's death with Dany and Jon as rulers makes the most sense IMO. It's a perfect combination of predictable and unpredictable. 

 

Dany and Jon spent a lot of time learning how to rule and to be good leaders. It's very hard to write Daenery's death without feeling that everything was big waste of time. On the other hand, Tyrion's character was always about his family. If his death is somehow connected to that it makes sense as his endgame. 

 

And from cast interviews it's clear that something unpredictable will happen. 

Iain Glen's comment could only mean Dany and Jon as rulers IMO. 

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, nikma said:

I don't know if Friki is right or wrong, but Tyrion's death with Dany and Jon as rulers makes the most sense IMO. It's a perfect combination of predictable and unpredictable. 

Even after the debate about why the reasons that he might do it, I still find it difficult to believe that Tyrion betrays Dany and/or Jon.  Yet I don't believe that Dany and/or Jon die. I still think that they end up ruling together.  

[nikma]

Well someone has to die lol. There is no way that they will have Jon and Dany as rulers and Tyrion as their Hand. No way. 

 

And I don't think they will have Cersei kill Tyrion. Too easy. Where is drama there? I could see her manipulating him with (already dead) baby to lead him to his treason and later death, but Cersei won't be the one to do it.

Edited September 21, 2018 by nikma

[nikma]

Friki's new video:

He forgot to mention one character's name on his vid from last week. He didn't correct the list inmediately bc there were a lot of copycat fleackers on youtube releasing these spoilers as they were theirs so he wanted to expose them. The name missing was Yara Greyjoy. So she is at the trial on the DP and therefore she survives.

 

His theory is that Theon dies and Yara rules Pyke.

 

The 2 new characters present at DP during the trial: he confirmed with his sources that one of them is the actor Toby Osborne (he credits u/Praise_Be_The_Fruit for getting the info about actor's name and pic) and he was the man on the golden armour. But, (and here comes the new part) 2 of his sources told him different versions about this golden outfit. One soruce told him it was a golden armour and the other one told him it was just a golden costume. So his theory is that this man is probably someone from Dorne.

 

About the 2nd character his theory is that he is Howland Reed, because of his green outfit and the short beard.

 

He still doesn't have any details on Tyrion's betrayal or why Jon and Dany are not present during the trial. He thinks that if he is lucky he could have more info on that soon.

 

He has another theory that all the people that are present at DP are also the people who will end up ruling the different 7 kingdoms (they will be splited).

 

He still sustains that Gendry didn't film at DP at all. Confirmed by all his sources.

EDIT: He also added that no other people present during the trial. No common folks from KL, and also that Tyrion will not present any witnesses on his favor during trial.

Edited September 21, 2018 by nikma

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, nikma said:

He still doesn't have any details on Tyrion's betrayal or why Jon and Dany are not present during the trial. He thinks that if he is lucky he could have more info on that soon.

This is why I find it difficult to believe Friki's source. How could his source know all the other stuff even what Tyrion says at the trial, but not know this critical information? 

 

1 hour ago, nikma said:

Well someone has to die lol. There is no way that they will have Jon and Dany as rulers and Tyrion as their Hand. No way. 

 

But in GRRM's original outline Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Bran, and Arya all survived so he clearly never intended a tragic ending for his main characters. 

Edited September 21, 2018 by SimoneS

[Happy Harpy]

So, this last video was pure milking? Lots of theories, not much tea. Basically:

-G.Whelan in Seville and probably filming because she hid her presence is nothing new.

- T.Osborne's name, already an educated guess by BSB (IIRC she's the one who gave that name first) and waters muddled re: his character.

-No audience in the DP.

Sigh. HBO, for the love of everything holy and unholy, we.need.moving.pictures. (or not moving! But pictures).

[GraceK]

#HBOistheNK ????

[SimoneS]

You have to give to HBO and D&D credit, they shut it down. No Lads this off season. The scripts and storyboards must be under lock and key or password protected.

I was rereading Peter Dinklage's comments about playing dead on the set. I can't help still thinking that it is strange humor so maybe Tyrion does indeed die.

Edited September 22, 2018 by SimoneS

[anamika]

So apparently they are not only holding a trial but Friki theorizes that they may also discuss power sharing. Which sounds silly. First business of the day - sentence Tyrion to death. Second - Governance. Third - taxes!

If I was not so sure that Tyrion was going to, in some way, go against Jon/Dany and the Starks, I would have a hard time believing Friki.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, Happy Harpy said:

So, this last video was pure milking? Lots of theories, not much tea. Basically:

-G.Whelan in Seville and probably filming because she hid her presence is nothing new.

- T.Osborne's name, already an educated guess by BSB (IIRC she's the one who gave that name first) and waters muddled re: his character.

-No audience in the DP.

Sigh. HBO, for the love of everything holy and unholy, we.need.moving.pictures. (or not moving! But pictures).

I thought Gemma wasn’t filming as part of an Elaborate Deception, or that’s what Friki said last time.

I guess Friki has chosen Joe not filming at the Dragonpit as his particular hill to die on. Bold choice.

1 hour ago, anamika said:

So apparently they are not only holding a trial but Friki theorizes that they may also discuss power sharing. Which sounds silly. First business of the day - sentence Tyrion to death. Second - Governance. Third - taxes!

If I was not so sure that Tyrion was going to, in some way, go against Jon/Dany and the Starks, I would have a hard time believing Friki.

Back in May there was speculation that the Dragonpit scene was a great council-type scene or a Tyrion trial/execution scene, but both?

[WindyNights]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

So apparently they are not only holding a trial but Friki theorizes that they may also discuss power sharing. Which sounds silly. First business of the day - sentence Tyrion to death. Second - Governance. Third - taxes!

If I was not so sure that Tyrion was going to, in some way, go against Jon/Dany and the Starks, I would have a hard time believing Friki.

Yeah, I can believe that. GRRM did say that he wished LOTR's ending gave more focus to the socio-economic aspect of Aragorn's rule.

[anamika]

21 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Back in May there was speculation that the Dragonpit scene was a great council-type scene or a Tyrion trial/execution scene, but both?

Yeah, that's my problem with it too. Keep in mind that while Friki is sure that what is going on is a trial, he is only theorizing the great council type scene also happening there which to me is just nonsensical - especially if Peter Dinklage is acting out Emmy winning scenes. So, after Tyrion is taken away, they wipe their tears and do business? Yeah, no.

And why do business in the dragon pit? Surely, a great council would be after they start rebuilding and they could find a suitable hall for that.

If these are the only characters making it out alive at the end of series, it could explain cast frowny faces about the ending. The most popular and interesting characters killed off and we are left with Sansa, Arya, Bran, Sam, Brienne, SweetRobin, Yara and Davos?

Edited September 22, 2018 by anamika

[Colorful Mess]

6 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

Yeah, I can believe that. GRRM did say that he wished LOTR's ending gave more focus to the socio-economic aspect of Aragorn's rule.

Are you talking about the question of "What does the ruler do with the baby orcs after the war is over?" I think that already occured in Dance - that policy was deciding what to do with the slave masters for Dany and the wildlings for Jon. Both function as "orcs" and undesirable people who are conquered. This could extend to unwanted heirs or incest babies at the end of the story, but I think GRRM is going for an ironic Scouring closure, like defending the homeland from one threat but it gets destroyed by another instead. So for instance, Tyrion could burn Winterfell like the outline - but there is also book foreshadowing for a dragon being involved.

[anamika]

34 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

Are you talking about the question of "What does the ruler do with the baby orcs after the war is over?" I think that already occured in Dance - that policy was deciding what to do with the slave masters for Dany and the wildlings for Jon. Both function as "orcs" and undesirable people who are conquered. This could extend to unwanted heirs or incest babies at the end of the story,

I am not sure if I understand you right here. Are you referring to a possible Jon/Dany baby as an unwanted, undesirable 'baby orc'?

Edited September 22, 2018 by anamika

[Colorful Mess]

2 minutes ago, anamika said:

I am not sure if I understand you right here. Are you referring to a possible Jon/Dany baby as an unwanted, undesirable 'baby orc'?

Incest connects the White Walkers and the Targaryens. They are the most heavily inbred "faction" in the story. Craster's sons are White Walkers and the Targaryens created heavily inbred incest children. Madness is the cost to centuries of incest. Aerion Brightflame's baby Maegor was disinherited by a Great Council because of fears of Targaryen madness. Considering that the Targaryens have worn out their brand, Dany and Jon's child would be received with dread in Westeros. It would have to be removed from any whiff of Targaryen culture (like Jon) for the Lords to be comfortable with such a child. So it would be unwanted and in that way it's like an orc. But I think the wildlings and the slave masters are more apt of a comparison, because it's about what Jon and Dany did with a larger group of undesirable people after the war was over. The Dothraki and Unsullied could be next.

[bubble sparkly]

Aren't there a dedicated group of Targ loyalists, hence why Robert was also so paranoid about Targs and wanted to take them all out?  Also, the main reason he was accepted as King was because he played up his Targ heritage.  Hell, Thorne hated Jon because Thorne was a Targ lover and he resented Ned's role in the Rebellion, which is of course the ultimate irony because he made life hell for the secret Targ heir.  There are plenty of people in Westeros who might not care for Targs because of Aery's legacy, but there are also plenty of people who would be supportive if Targs with no mental health issues (i.e. Jon and Dany) wanted to reclaim the throne.  Not long ago we saw that the leaders of the Reach, Iron Islands and Dorne were supportive of a Targ queen.

The North is the only place that seems to be 100% anti Targ, because of the Aerys/Stark thing and the incorrect "Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna" story.  But the North is pretty much irrelevant in respect of the IT because they purposely stayed away from Southern politics in the past.

Even if Dany and Jon, or their child, were insane megalomaniac terrorists with a penchant for torture, the past season of GoT seems to suggest it wouldn't prevent the Lords from accepting them as leaders. Joffrey was a sadistic creep and no one was trying to rise up and get him off the throne.  Olenna only killed him to ensure Marg's personal safety.  Cersei blew up the sept and killed hundreds of lords and ladies and no one was prepared to try and overthrow her.  Ramsey tortured and raped his way across the North and Northern lords did nothing, then told the Starks to go fuck themselves when they asked for assistance to try and stop Ramsey's reign of terror.

[Minneapple]

3 hours ago, SimoneS said:

You have to give to HBO and D&D, they shut it down. No Lads this off season. The scripts and storyboards must be under lock and key or password protected.

Or they threatened everyone who works on the show with certain death if stuff leaks. “If this gets out, the Red Wedding will look tame compared to what we’ll do to you.”

[GraceK]

36 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said:

Aren't there a dedicated group of Targ loyalists, hence why Robert was also so paranoid about Targs and wanted to take them all out?  Also, the main reason he was accepted as King was because he played up his Targ heritage.  Hell, Thorne hated Jon because Thorne was a Targ lover and he resented Ned's role in the Rebellion, which is of course the ultimate irony because he made life hell for the secret Targ heir.  There are plenty of people in Westeros who might not care for Targs because of Aery's legacy, but there are also plenty of people who would be supportive if Targs with no mental health issues (i.e. Jon and Dany) wanted to reclaim the throne.  Not long ago we saw that the leaders of the Reach, Iron Islands and Dorne were supportive of a Targ queen.

The North is the only place that seems to be 100% anti Targ, because of the Aerys/Stark thing and the incorrect "Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna" story.  But the North is pretty much irrelevant in respect of the IT because they purposely stayed away from Southern politics in the past.

Even if Dany and Jon, or their child, were insane megalomaniac terrorists with a penchant for torture, the past season of GoT seems to suggest it wouldn't prevent the Lords from accepting them as leaders. Joffrey was a sadistic creep and no one was trying to rise up and get him off the throne.  Olenna only killed him to ensure Marg's personal safety.  Cersei blew up the sept and killed hundreds of lords and ladies and no one was prepared to try and overthrow her.  Ramsey tortured and raped his way across the North and Northern lords did nothing, then told the Starks to go fuck themselves when they asked for assistance to try and stop Ramsey's reign of terror.

Seriously. But a certain Anti Daenarys fanbase doesn’t care about logic or reason. ? Some are still convinced that the real enemy isn’t Cersei, but is actually Dany, who is a dark messiah, prophesied to bring about the end times. Apparently at the last minute, according to these people, after Cersei and the NK are defeated, it’s Daenarys who is gonna emerge as the antagonist who Jon Snow and the Starks are gonna have to defeat. My advice? Don’t engage with the crazy.

[WindyNights]

Well claytoy is saying this about Jon and Dany: 

 

"Do not worry. They both live, breaking the wheel and rejecting throne. Although they reject the throne, they will remain the truest king and queen who ever lived in people's hearts forever."

[bubble sparkly]

Does that mean DJ reject the throne by leaving Westeros, or they reject the throne itself but are still basically ruling Westeros?

[nikma]

6 hours ago, SimoneS said:

8 hours ago, nikma said:

 

But in GRRM's original outline Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Bran, and Arya all survived

That's common misinterpretation.

1 hour ago, WindyNights said:

Well claytoy is saying this about Jon and Dany: 

 

"Do not worry. They both live, breaking the wheel and rejecting throne. Although they reject the throne, they will remain the truest king and queen who ever lived in people's hearts forever."

I don't know is Friki is right, but I know claytoy is wrong.

[John Potts]

2 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Well claytoy is saying this about Jon and Dany: 

"Do not worry. They both live, breaking the wheel and rejecting throne. Although they reject the throne, they will remain the truest king and queen who ever lived in people's hearts forever."

If that's the case, then it's the greatest dereliction of duty, ever. Seven Hells, even when Jon walked away from the Night Watch, he at least left Edd in charge. The idea that Jon and/or Danny would completely overturn the political structure of Westeros and then go, "Well, I'm off sit by the pool and drink cocktails!" and leave everyone else to pick up the pieces seems unlikely, particularly in the light of Danny's experience of how well abolishing slavery worked out in Essos. There's more to ruling than laying down the law and expecting it to be obeyed!

(That doesn't mean it necessarily won't happen - it would just be something either Jon or Danny should have learned. And there's always the possibility that the throne might be left vacant because they're both dead, leaving a baby Targ on the Iron Throne).

[anamika]

5 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

Madness is the cost to centuries of incest. Aerion Brightflame's baby Maegor was disinherited by a Great Council because of fears of Targaryen madness. Considering that the Targaryens have worn out their brand, Dany and Jon's child would be received with dread in Westeros. It would have to be removed from any whiff of Targaryen culture (like Jon) for the Lords to be comfortable with such a child. So it would be unwanted and in that way it's like an orc. But I think the wildlings and the slave masters are more apt of a comparison, because it's about what Jon and Dany did with a larger group of undesirable people after the war was over. The Dothraki and Unsullied could be next.

First, even ignoring book canon where as @bubble sparkly mentioned there are still several factions who support the Targaryens - including the North - on the show itself the Tyrells, Martells and one faction of the Greyjoys join Dany's campaign and planned to make her queen.

On the show, only Cersei, Euron, Tarlys, Sansa and the Northern Lords view Dany as the Mad King's daughter. Dany is going to help the North, so the North may come to support her. And Cersei and Euron are going to die, so who cares what they think.

Second, regarding your reference to Aerion Brightflame's son

Quote

In 233 AC, hundreds of lords great and small assembled in King’s Landing. With both of Maekar’s elder sons deceased, there were four possible claimants. The Great Council dismissed Prince Daeron’s sweet but simple-minded daughter Vaella immediately. Only a few spoke up for Aerion Brightflame’s son Maegor; an infant king would have meant a long, contentious regency, and there were also fears that the boy might have inherited his father’s cruelty and madness. Prince Aegon was the obvious choice, but some lords distrusted him as well, for his wanderings with his hedge knight had left him “half a peasant,” according to many. Enough hated him, in fact, that an effort was made to determine whether his elder brother Maester Aemon might be released from his vows, but Aemon refused, and nothing came of it.” (WOIAF)

So, it's not like they denounced all Targaryens as mad - they feared the baby, whose father was considered cruel and mad, would have inherited those traits. And well Jon and Dany are not cruel and mad are they? The only times the great councils were deployed they put Targaryens on the throne.

Third, are you saying that Jon should either die or if he lives never have children? I mean, Jon would not be able to marry someone like Sansa either right? Because any child they have would also have Mad King Aerys' blood and possibly inherit those traits. So why would Sansa or the North agree to that?

If Dany's child is a baby orc so would Jon's child be. They are both descendants of the Mad King and from the 'heavily inbred faction'. If people want Targaryens to be wiped out from the story, then Jon should die as well and not procreate.

Edited September 22, 2018 by anamika

[SimoneS]

2 hours ago, nikma said:

That's common misinterpretation.

I read the outline. He wrote that the five main characters survive. Where is the misinterpretation from what he wrote below?

Quote

Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, however, growing from children to adults and changing the world and themselves in the process.

[nikma]

1 hour ago, SimoneS said:

I read the outline. He wrote that the five main characters survive. Where is the misinterpretation from what he wrote below?

He said they will be alive in all 3 books(make it through). He never said they will survive.

[SimoneS]

12 minutes ago, nikma said:

He said they will be alive in all 3 books(make it through). He never said they will survive.

I just don't see how "make it through" can possibly can be interpreted as any of these characters dying or not surviving to the end, especially in the context of the whole letter. 

Quote

Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, however, growing from children to adults and changing the world and themselves in the process.

Edited September 22, 2018 by SimoneS

[nikma]

Because even in the show Tyrion will make it though all 8 seasons. And die at the end. If Friki is right.

[Leila6]

7 hours ago, WindyNights said:

Well claytoy is saying this about Jon and Dany: 

 

"Do not worry. They both live, breaking the wheel and rejecting throne. Although they reject the throne, they will remain the truest king and queen who ever lived in people's hearts forever."

I think you might be taking claytoy’s response too seriously here. I read that original conversation, and in context, it came across to me as tongue in cheek, not a real leak.

 

ETA: Do we have any spoilers about whether Jon and Dany marry? I can’t recall anything about that from the leakers who seem most legit (debatably, of course). Since I think everyone is 99.999% sure Dany will be pregnant next season, I will find it hilarious if Jon does indeed end up fathering a bastard, even if the baby does get quickly legitimized.

Edited September 22, 2018 by Leila6

[SimoneS]

48 minutes ago, nikma said:

Because even in the show Tyrion will make it though all 8 seasons. And die at the end. If Friki is right.

All I am saying is that originally Martin intended for all five characters to get through the story alive. Of course, he might have changed his mind, but he has said along that he knows how these five main characters' stories will end and he has written a lot of plot armor to keep these characters alive. I think it is a lot for a writer to invest in characters only to kill them off at the end.   

[Wouter]

16 hours ago, nikma said:

Friki's new video:

He forgot to mention one character's name on his vid from last week. He didn't correct the list inmediately bc there were a lot of copycat fleackers on youtube releasing these spoilers as they were theirs so he wanted to expose them. The name missing was Yara Greyjoy. So she is at the trial on the DP and therefore she survives.

 

 

12 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I thought Gemma wasn’t filming as part of an Elaborate Deception, or that’s what Friki said last time.

I guess Friki has chosen Joe not filming at the Dragonpit as his particular hill to die on. Bold choice.

Back in May there was speculation that the Dragonpit scene was a great council-type scene or a Tyrion trial/execution scene, but both?

In his video last week, Friki did say Gemma was in Seville but did nothing. So changing his story doesn't help his credibility. Even though he hasn't backtracked about Gendry.

On balance, allthough Friki has his reputation and is setting this openly on the line, I'm still sceptical about the accuracy of his reports.

I doubt the 7K will split at the end. 

Edited September 22, 2018 by Wouter

[nikma]

1 hour ago, SimoneS said:

All I am saying is that originally Martin intended for all five characters to get through the story alive. Of course, he might have changed his mind, but he has said along that he knows how these five main characters' stories will end and he has written a lot of plot armor to keep these characters alive. I think it is a lot for a writer to invest in characters only to kill them off at the end.   

But he never said they will survive. Killing character at the end of the story makes sense if it serves some purpose. Martin is not fanboy of his own books. Tyrion's death will happen if that's something good for the story.

 

Again Dany and Jon ruling with Tyrion as their Hand would ruin GoT's legacy more than Obara Sand on the iron throne. It won't happen. And Tyrion is perfect candidate to die, as I explained earlier.

1 hour ago, Wouter said:

 

In his video last week, Friki did say Gemma was in Seville but did nothing. So changing his story doesn't help his credibility. Even though he hasn't backtracked about Gendry.

On balance, allthough Friki has his reputation and is setting this openly on the line, I'm still sceptical about the accuracy of his reports.

I doubt the 7K will split at the end. 

Well, one thing he confirmed is that he has more than one source and that they have conflicted reports.

Edited September 22, 2018 by nikma

[Colorful Mess]

7 hours ago, anamika said:

First, even ignoring book canon where as @bubble sparkly mentioned there are still several factions who support the Targaryens - including the North - on the show itself the Tyrells, Martells and one faction of the Greyjoys join Dany's campaign and planned to make her queen.

On the show, only Cersei, Euron, Tarlys, Sansa and the Northern Lords view Dany as the Mad King's daughter. Dany is going to help the North, so the North may come to support her. And Cersei and Euron are going to die, so who cares what they think.

Second, regarding your reference to Aerion Brightflame's son

So, it's not like they denounced all Targaryens as mad - they feared the baby, whose father was considered cruel and mad, would have inherited those traits. And well Jon and Dany are not cruel and mad are they? The only times the great councils were deployed they put Targaryens on the throne.

Third, are you saying that Jon should either die or if he lives never have children? I mean, Jon would not be able to marry someone like Sansa either right? Because any child they have would also have Mad King Aerys' blood and possibly inherit those traits. So why would Sansa or the North agree to that?

If Dany's child is a baby orc so would Jon's child be. They are both descendants of the Mad King and from the 'heavily inbred faction'. If people want Targaryens to be wiped out from the story, then Jon should die as well and not procreate.

 

Dany only looks like a viable option next to Joffrey, Cersei, Euron, ect.

Dany to Olenna: "I know you have no love for me..." So they don't really "believe in her" as a ruler or even want the Targaryens to come back, they just want to use her as a tool for their own vengeance. It's the same in the books with Quentyn/Dorne. She got allies because they want her to do something for them. Jon is essentially using Dany too.

However, I have a feeling that her surviving allies, Ellaria and Asha, are going to sour on Dany because she didnt help them when they needed it. This is another reason why Randyll and Dickon should have been kept alive, for prisoner exchange, so she could maintain her political ties to people who will matter later.  Dany has no allies left. Jon is not her ally - he's now her subject, a fact that is only going to piss the NL off.

About the Council - it wasn't just because the child had a crazy father. It was because of the problem of regency taking too long and leaving the realm unstable. This was hammered with Joffrey/Cersei. No one wants to leave the realm to a regent/child king relationship when there are better options. Waiting until a child comes of age is not a viable situation when they have perfectly good adults sitting right there. Aemon and Aegon V were chosen over Maegor. And it is interesting that the people who were the "least Targaryen" of the Targaryens were given the most backstory. Aegon/Aemon are a combination of Jon until Aegon attempted to pull a Dany, and died obsessing over dragons. Aemon went a little dragon-crazy too, at the end, the further he got from the Wall.

I have theorized that Jon's big sacrifice would be taking up his NW vows of celibacy again so the Targaryen line ends for good. This would be after Dany returns to her original intent to bring Fire and Blood to Westeros at the end of the story. GRRM has talked about how characters like Tyrion reach breaking points. So while Dany may not go mad as in mentally ill, I think she will hit a breaking point and do something like Tyrion did to Tywin. I think this could be what Emilia is reacting to in interviews.

Edited September 22, 2018 by Colorful Mess

[Happy Harpy]

14 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I guess Friki has chosen Joe not filming at the Dragonpit as his particular hill to die on. Bold choice.

The DP, I wouldn't know. Joe Dempsie filmed in Seville, that's for sure unless HBO decided to revive the X-files for realz, but no one has concrete facts beyond that. Yet IIRC the leak initially was "he didn't film in Seville (at al)l"; and of course if Friki claims that only the DP scene was filmed in Seville (here, I lost track) it's a moot point.

[nikma]

I already accepted Tyrion's betrayal as "brave" and "devicive" ending. And I could see that work. But if Friki is wrong and it's something completely different I must say I'm affraid of some wierd shit like Dany and Jon leaving Westeros or Sansa and Arya ruling or some other nonsens

[Colorful Mess]

6 hours ago, Leila6 said:

Since I think everyone is 99.999% sure Dany will be pregnant next season, I will find it hilarious if Jon does indeed end up fathering a bastard,

The story ends with a bastard born of incest sitting on the Iron Throne - exactly like Joffrey? How ominous. There's a 50/50 chance it goes mad, and if Dany isnt alive to make sure her child sits on the throne, the Lords would choose someone else, like Sam or Gendry. Tolkien had no babies ruling the Shire, Rohan, or Gondor at the end. 

[cambridgeguy]

On 9/20/2018 at 8:57 PM, bubble sparkly said:

Maybe the super shocking twist is Dany and Jon ruling together lol? Obviously this is a pretty popular fandom theory but so far the show has not raised the possibility of two people ruling jointly from the current crop of heroes. Perhaps we are supposed to be surprised beyond belief when Sansa comes up with the shocking and novel idea for D/J to marry, unite their claims and rule jointly lol?

In-universe this means Jon will always be seen as the "true" ruler while Dany is the First Lady - aside from Dorne Westeros is so patriarchal that the majority of people will always see the male as the key figure, regardless of the actual truth.  Heck, he's technically the rightful heir to House Targaryean so if he ends up on the Iron Throne with Dany then she's supposed to be subordinate to him anyway.  I'm not sure that will be satisfying to Dany fans.

[anamika]

8 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

I have theorized that Jon's big sacrifice would be taking up his NW vows of celibacy again so the Targaryen line ends for good.

So your theory is that Jon rejoins the NW at the end after Dany dies?

What's your theory on what happens to Sansa, Arya and Bran in this scenario?

Another interview with Liam, Isaac and Conleth:

Conleth seems to be familiar with the Varys is a merman theories lol!

A Russian interview with GRRM last year seems to indicate that Dany's red door will be significant in the future books given that GRRM has mentioned it quite a few times. A barefoot little girl running towards a house with the red door does appear in her house of the undying visions.

Quote

What are the major historical inspirations for ASOIAF?

The Wars of the Roses, The Hundred Years' War, the Great Interregnum in Holy Roman Empire, the Crusades, and the history of Scotland in general, for it was extremely bloody.

How old was Daenerys when she left the house with the red door?

An interesting question, but I don't think I'll answer it now. There will be quite a few revelations about the red door in the next book, so you'll learn for yourself.

Where is Rickon?

Rickon Stark will show up in TWOW. He's certainly not dead.

How do you tell a dragon's sex?

It's really difficult to determine a dragon's sex. Usually my characters only find out it's a female when she starts laying eggs.

What inspired you to create Ramsay and Boltons in general?

I came up with Ramsay when I needed one more villain, as I'd killed off a bunch of old ones. Moreover, it helped develop Theon's story, deprive him of several pieces of flesh and make him Ramsay's slave, pushing to submit to darker drives.

Would Lady have lived if Sansa told the truth?

Everything's possible. Robert Baratheon certainly didn't have analytical mind, he was a short tempered man who was often driven by his emotions. If Sansa told the truth, he would be likely to direct his anger towards Joffrey instead of the direwolves. But it's not set in stone, he also cared about preserving his marriage at the time.

Will you reveal the origin of Others in the last book?

Yes, in the last two books there will be more about Others.

So, a dragon's sex can only be determined if they lay or not lay eggs.  I think there is a chance that one of Drogon or Rhaegal will turn out to be a girl and possible lay an egg.

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/9hriat/spoilers_main_newly_released_grrm_interview_from/

[nikma]

13 minutes ago, anamika said:

  I think there is a chance that one of Drogon or Rhaegal will turn out to be a girl and possible lay an egg

I agree. And that would be bitersweet. If both of them die, but Dany and Jon later find out their eggs. So possibility for new beginnings, and dragons' death won't be too dark then.

[WindyNights]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

So your theory is that Jon rejoins the NW at the end after Dany dies?

What's your theory on what happens to Sansa, Arya and Bran in this scenario?

Another interview with Liam, Isaac and Conleth:

 

Conleth seems to be familiar with the Varys is a merman theories lol!

A Russian interview with GRRM last year seems to indicate that Dany's red door will be significant in the future books given that GRRM has mentioned it quite a few times. A barefoot little girl running towards a house with the red door does appear in her house of the undying visions.

So, a dragon's sex can only be determined if they lay or not lay eggs.  I think there is a chance that one of Drogon or Rhaegal will turn out to be a girl and possible lay an egg.

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/9hriat/spoilers_main_newly_released_grrm_interview_from/

Probably not Drogon. 

Rhaegal and Viserion might have been getting it on though in the dungeons while they were locked up.

I'd laugh if Rhaegal is pregnant and Euron scoops Rhaegal up and gets the eggs too.

[anamika]

37 minutes ago, WindyNights said:

Probably not Drogon. 

Rhaegal and Viserion might have been getting it on though in the dungeons while they were locked up.

I'd laugh if Rhaegal is pregnant and Euron scoops Rhaegal up and gets the eggs too.

If I recall right, aren't the dragons in asoiaf asexual and not requiring of mating to lay eggs? They are after all some kind of reptile!

I think these dragons can also changes sex based on circumstances? Not very sure about dragon lore in the series.

Edited September 23, 2018 by anamika

[Colorful Mess]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

So your theory is that Jon rejoins the NW at the end after Dany dies?

What's your theory on what happens to Sansa, Arya and Bran in this scenario?

No, he could rule Westeros, but more or less like a celibate Elizabeth I so that his duty to the realm is never compromised. He could establish elections like the Night's Watch after he's gone. It's just one theory I have, among others, because in some form GRRM is either killing off, renaming, or diluting House Targaryen.

The Starks + Sam, Davos, Gendry, and Brienne will probably play a role in creating strong governing institutions that Westeros needs. They won't just sit on a small council and advise the king. I agree with Cogman: "for me it boils down to the Starks, and their need to stay together and hold onto who they – whatever humanity they have left, you know, in the face of all of this craziness."

[anamika]

35 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

No, he could rule Westeros, but more or less like a celibate Elizabeth I so that his duty to the realm is never compromised.

So Jon decides to not marry or have children because his Targaryen genes are so bad? In which case would he not have been worried about making a mad BoatsexBaby when he slept with Dany considering he believed that she could still have children?

And GRRM is killing off, renaming or diluting Targaryens? Seems to be quite the opposite. He seems to be bringing back the Targs in a big way from what I can see - Jon, Dany and baby? Three heads of the dragon and all that?

The show has been dire for the other families on the other hand - Tyrells, Martells gone. If Tyrion, Jaime and Cersei die, Lannisters gone. Rickon dead on the show, which means the Stark line has to continue through the girls where they marry lesser lords. Bran is just a zombie, Arya is just a FM killer.  Baratheons have been wiped out and need to continue through bastards. Greyjoys through Yara. Not sure what Edmure's fate is.

Jon and Dany on the other hand can continue the Targaryen tradition of marrying within the family, have a Targaryen baby and get some dragon eggs as well. They look all set!

[GrailKing]

Down the thread he said it WON't be a trailer.