S12.E22: Who We Are/S12.E23 All Along the Watchtower

[ILoveReading]

6 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

While Sam was trying to connect with Mary, Dean was in the kitchen with his old photographs instead. So I'm not sure that I would say exactly that Dean wasn't unsure about what he needed from Mary or wasn't floundering a little at least. It seems to me that Dean went back to his photographs, because they were familiar, like he was looking for an answer there that he was trying to find.

I agree he was floudering, but it never really came across as needing to forgive.  I always interpreted it more as Dean realizing the real Mary wasn't the one of this memories and he was trying to reconcile that. 

IMO, if it was planned from the start, I would think they needed to show more of Mary reaching out to Dean and him rejecting her.  I just didn't see it.  It came across as Dean attempting to bridge the gap but Mary rejecting him.   She kept both her sons at arms length, not just Dean.

The one exception was The Raid, but considering Mary lied and chose them over her sons, I can't say i blame Dean, but even then the Dean rushed to her side and said he couldn't risk losing her, and then apologized for expecting her to make him sandwiches and tuck him in. 

Considering that ep was written by Berens, if he really did plan it, that would have been the perfect ep to really start laying the ground work, but I just didn't see it.  Also, I like reading metas and debates and I didn't see any mention or discussions that what Dean needed was to forgive Mary.  Nor did i see any after that The Raid or ep 22 aired.  It's like Jensen was the first to figure it out. 

So, I'm glad it worked for Jensen., and like I said, I could see it being a motivation.  But I don't agree that it was planned or even a thought in Berens mind, so it wasn't even a tell.  It was nothing more than a happy accident that occurred because Jensen puts far more thought into these things then the writers do.

Edited May 26, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Boopsahoy]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

I agree he was floudering, but it never really came across as needing to forgive.  I always interpreted it more as Dean realizing the real Mary wasn't the one of this memories and he was trying to reconcile that. 

IMO, if it was planned from the start, I would think they needed to show more of Mary reaching out to Dean and him rejecting her.  I just didn't see it.  It came across as Dean attempting to bridge the gap but Mary rejecting him.   She kept both her sons at arms length, not just Dean.

The one exception was The Raid, but considering Mary lied and chose them over her sons, I can't say i blame Dean, but even then the Dean rushed to her side and said he couldn't risk losing her, and then apologized for expecting her to make him sandwiches and tuck him in. 

Considering that ep was written by Berens, if he really did plan it, that would have been the perfect ep to really start laying the ground work, but I just didn't see it.  Also, I like reading metas and debates and I didn't see any mention or discussions that what Dean needed was to forgive Mary.  Nor did i see any after that The Raid or ep 22 aired.  It's like Jensen was the first to figure it out. 

So, I'm glad it worked for Jensen., and like I said, I could see it being a motivation.  But I don't agree that it was planned or even a thought in Berens mind, so it wasn't even a tell.  It was nothing more than a happy accident that occurred because Jensen puts far more thought into these things then the writers do.

I thought in Asa Fox you could see Deans anger at her-oh so you came to Canada.....

[CluelessDrifter]

1 minute ago, Boopsahoy said:

I thought in Asa Fox you could see Deans anger at her-oh so you came to Canada.....

But that was his anger at the present Mary.  I think when he said that what Dean needed most was to forgive Mary, he meant for what happened in the past.

[Boopsahoy]

7 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

But that was his anger at the present Mary.  I think when he said that what Dean needed most was to forgive Mary, he meant for what happened in the past.

I think on the surface it was for the present but subconsciously it was for the past. Well that's my headcanon anyway.

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, Boopsahoy said:

I thought in Asa Fox you could see Deans anger at her-oh so you came to Canada.....

I took that more as hurt rather than anger.  He was upset that Mary put in the effort to reconnect with strangers but none with her own sons. 

I'm not denying that there weren't times Dean was angry at Mary.   I'm saying I never got the feeling that anger over the deal was the underlying reason.  Not even in hindsight.  Since Jensen, himself, said that it didn't click for him until he read ep 22, I don't feel it was a motivation Jensen was trying to convey in any of his scenes with Mary. 

[CluelessDrifter]

14 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I took that more as hurt rather than anger.  He was upset that Mary put in the effort to reconnect with strangers but none with her own sons. 

I'm not denying that there weren't times Dean was angry at Mary.   I'm saying I never got the feeling that anger over the deal was the underlying reason.  Not even in hindsight.  Since Jensen, himself, said that it didn't click for him until he read ep 22, I don't feel it was a motivation Jensen was trying to convey in any of his scenes with Mary. 

Anger as a result of being hurt might be a way to phrase it, but I think in general that's what Boopsahoy meant.  If I'm wrong Boopsahoy, tell me.

And I agree.  I don't think underlying anger over the deal was intended to be there all season.  If it was supposed to be there, then they would've had Dean being angry with Mary over nothing all season to showcase that there was anger for some unseen or un-talked about 'something else to be revealed in episode 22', but instead, every time Dean got angry with Mary, it was for justifiable reasons in the moment.   

Edited May 26, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I'm not denying that there weren't times Dean was angry at Mary.   I'm saying I never got the feeling that anger over the deal was the underlying reason. 

Me neither. His mindset and approach towards Mary was quite different when the Season first started. And he was perfectly aware of the deal then. Then she was one disappointment after another and he started getting angry about that. In effect, it was roughly the fandom reaction as I saw it. The worse Mary was onscreen in the present time, the less forgiving anyone was of her past transgression. And really, the present time even added to those by making it seem like she hop-skipped out on her family on a regular basis. 

But IMO the anger was more in terms of "why is she such a bitch?" And anger over her deal would never have manifested, least not in that manner, if she wasn`t such a bitch now.     

And to  be honest, in the beginning I expected Mary to come to the conclusion how the family had suffered in the wake of her death on her own. To have a few words of acknowledgment, regret and thanks on her own. Not that she needed to be told, said a few half-assed words and was immediately forgiven after being told. 

That`s why I do not consider this redemption. The show it relatively good at getting me to loathe characters but they really suck in getting me back on board with a redemptive story. It`s almost always exactly the wrong thing that puts me off even more. 

[gonzosgirrl]

3 hours ago, CluelessDrifter said:

Yeah, I still think Mary did it.  I'd say after she woke back up, her eyes went immediately to Kelly, she closed Kelly's eyes, while doing a quick scan of the room for the baby, and then ran out of the room when she saw the light from Cas dying outside and/or heard her sons yelling 'No!" when Cas died.

Sam closed Kelly's eyes, so unless they popped back open (yikes!) Mary didn't do it, and I can't see her arranging her so prettily and then leaving them open.

[Idahoforspn]

6 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

 

That`s why I do not consider this redemption. The show it relatively good at getting me to loathe characters but they really suck in getting me back on board with a redemptive story. It`s almost always exactly the wrong thing that puts me off even more. 

I'm this way too. It's one of the big fails of the writers. They don't seem to have a clue how to redeem a character. The best effort I have seen in a while was Mick. They at least developed it over a couple of episodes.

[gonzosgirrl]

9 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Me neither. His mindset and approach towards Mary was quite different when the Season first started. And he was perfectly aware of the deal then. Then she was one disappointment after another and he started getting angry about that. In effect, it was roughly the fandom reaction as I saw it. The worse Mary was onscreen in the present time, the less forgiving anyone was of her past transgression. And really, the present time even added to those by making it seem like she hop-skipped out on her family on a regular basis. 

But IMO the anger was more in terms of "why is she such a bitch?" And anger over her deal would never have manifested, least not in that manner, if she wasn`t such a bitch now.     

And to  be honest, in the beginning I expected Mary to come to the conclusion how the family had suffered in the wake of her death on her own. To have a few words of acknowledgment, regret and thanks on her own. Not that she needed to be told, said a few half-assed words and was immediately forgiven after being told. 

That`s why I do not consider this redemption. The show it relatively good at getting me to loathe characters but they really suck in getting me back on board with a redemptive story. It`s almost always exactly the wrong thing that puts me off even more. 

I wish I could like this post a million times, each and every point of it. There still may have been a realization of repressed anger and a need for forgiveness, had she actually stuck around and talked to them, but it would not have played out the way it did. If how it all played out was their goal from the start, then they took a huge risk of making Mary irredeemably unlikeable in the telling - and guess what? It worked for me.

[CluelessDrifter]

16 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Sam closed Kelly's eyes, so unless they popped back open (yikes!) Mary didn't do it, and I can't see her arranging her so prettily and then leaving them open.

So . . . Kelly's eyelids popped back open before rigor mortis set in and Sam closed them again.   That or Kelly just died pretty . . . I'm fine with that.  I don't think that Jack hid after he was born, stayed hidden until Mary woke up/left, and then came out of hiding to pose Kelly before trying to bring her back.  I mean that could be what the bright glow was coming from the house, but he certainly didn't come out of Kelly the size he was when Sam found him, so I'm thinking that the glow from the house could've been a result of Jack's rapid aging in a couple of seconds, and he had no interest in Kelly or trying to bring her back, just finding somewhere to hide in the other room.  

Edited May 26, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[SueB]

3 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

So . . . Kelly's eyelids popped back open before rigor mortis set in and Sam closed them again.   That or Kelly just died pretty . . . I'm fine with that.  I don't think that Jack hid after he was born, stayed hidden until Mary woke up/left, and then came out of hiding to pose Kelly before trying to bring her back.  I mean that could be what the bright glow was coming from the house, but he certainly didn't come out of Kelly the size he was when Sam found him, so I'm thinking that the glow from the house could've been a result of Jack's rapid aging in a couple of seconds, and he had no interest in Kelly or trying to bring her back, just finding somewhere to hide in the other room.  

I think Jack didn't know he was supposed to close the eyes, just arranged Kelly's limbs, left the room... Mary woke up and ran downstairs after seeing no baby but not taking time to pose her... Sam came in, closed the eyes and found Jack. 

[DittyDotDot]

53 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I took that more as hurt rather than anger.  He was upset that Mary put in the effort to reconnect with strangers but none with her own sons. 

I'm not denying that there weren't times Dean was angry at Mary.   I'm saying I never got the feeling that anger over the deal was the underlying reason.  Not even in hindsight.  Since Jensen, himself, said that it didn't click for him until he read ep 22, I don't feel it was a motivation Jensen was trying to convey in any of his scenes with Mary. 

Like I said, I doubt they had it all figured out in the beginning, but I think since Dean couldn't admit he was holding on to anger for her for abandoning them until the moment he said he hated her, I think it works when you look back at the friction all season. 

I do think by the time they got The Raid, they had figured out that Dean's issues with Mary go all the way back to her deal, and I'd be surprised if Berens didn't know that. However I doubt any of them figured it was the reason Amara gave Mary back to Dean.

11 hours ago, rue721 said:

The idea of an infant concerned about the tidiness of its mother's corpse...

I dunno, man. I dunno.

;)

Hee! Yeah, I'm not sure the newly born spawn would've been aware of the cultural norms for these things.

[gonzosgirrl]

4 minutes ago, SueB said:

I think Jack didn't know he was supposed to close the eyes, just arranged Kelly's limbs, left the room... Mary woke up and ran downstairs after seeing no baby but not taking time to pose her... Sam came in, closed the eyes and found Jack. 

The far more plausible explanation, for me.

[CluelessDrifter]

1 minute ago, SueB said:

I think Jack didn't know he was supposed to close the eyes, just arranged Kelly's limbs, left the room... Mary woke up and ran downstairs after seeing no baby but not taking time to pose her... Sam came in, closed the eyes and found Jack. 

I'd agree with this except that I think Jack's footprints glowing were supposed to show that he'd just gone that way, not that he'd gone that way before Mary ran outside. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

20 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I do think by the time they got The Raid, they had figured out that Dean's issues with Mary go all the way back to her deal, and I'd be surprised if Berens didn't know that. However I doubt any of them figured it was the reason Amara gave Mary back to Dean.

I don't know.  It just doesn't seem plausible to me that the writers would write Amara telling Dean, "I'm going to give you what you need the most"  - which was then Mary - when she'd (Amara) had just experienced forgiveness and reconciliation with her brother - but they didn't know that forgiveness (and eventual reconciliation) was the reason Amara gave Mary back to Dean.  

[Idahoforspn]

1 minute ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I don't know.  It just doesn't seem plausible to me that the writers would write Amara telling Dean, "I'm going to give you what you need the most"  - which was then Mary - when she'd (Amara) had just experienced forgiveness and reconciliation with her brother - but they didn't know that forgiveness (and eventual reconciliation) was the reason Amara gave Mary back to Dean.  

The PTB have told us many times that they often write a finally with no real idea how they are going to handle it the next season. It is more than reasonable, it is probable they had no idea where they were going with that statement. They didn't have a clue, by their own admission, and never really figured out where they were going with the Dean/Amara storyline either.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 minute ago, Idahoforspn said:

The PTB have told us many times that they often write a finally with no real idea how they are going to handle it the next season. It is more than reasonable, it is probable they had no idea where they were going with that statement.

Eh.  Often is not the same as always.  It's also just as probable imo (without mathematically calculating the actual percentage) that the writers did know where they wanted to go with that statement.  

3 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

They didn't have a clue, by their own admission, and never really figured out where they were going with the Dean/Amara storyline either.

Potatoes and oranges.  One does not necessarily translate to the other.  Also, wasn't there a different showrunner that started the Dean/Amara storyline than actually finished it?  So, makes sense to me that the one who stepped in at the end didn't know, or understand, where the original had wanted to go with it.  But the one who stepped in at the end and started the Dean/Mary sl is the same who carried it through to this season - so it's possible that even then he knew where he wanted to go with it.

[DittyDotDot]

16 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I don't know.  It just doesn't seem plausible to me that the writers would write Amara telling Dean, "I'm going to give you what you need the most"  - which was then Mary - when she'd (Amara) had just experienced forgiveness and reconciliation with her brother - but they didn't know that forgiveness (and eventual reconciliation) was the reason Amara gave Mary back to Dean.  

Oh, I think they knew there would be some forgiveness and reconciliation at the end of it, but I don't think they had it all figured out at the end of last season. I mean, I think they knew Dean had, for a lack of better term, mommy issues, but didn't know exactly what those issues were until they started digging into them this season.

Edited May 26, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[RulerofallIsurvey]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

Oh, I think they knew there would be some forgiveness and reconciliation at the end of it, but I don't think they had it all figured out at the end of last season. I mean, I think they knew Dean had, for a lack of better term, mommy issues, but didn't know exactly what those issues were until they started digging into them this season.

Yeah, I can agree with that.  :)

[SueB]

38 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

I'd agree with this except that I think Jack's footprints glowing were supposed to show that he'd just gone that way, not that he'd gone that way before Mary ran outside. 

Interesting.... and you are right. Did Mary just run outside while a baby laid on the bed?  Did Mary have a conversation w/ Jack (who was in little kid form) and she told him to HIDE if she didn't come back?  We did see a big glowy/flash thingy that caught Sam's attention.  Man... there was SO MUCH in the last 10 minutes... lots to unpack.

18 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I don't know.  It just doesn't seem plausible to me that the writers would write Amara telling Dean, "I'm going to give you what you need the most"  - which was then Mary - when she'd (Amara) had just experienced forgiveness and reconciliation with her brother - but they didn't know that forgiveness (and eventual reconciliation) was the reason Amara gave Mary back to Dean.  

Winner Winner Chicken Dinner (IMO). 

[Idahoforspn]

9 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

 Also, wasn't there a different showrunner that started the Dean/Amara storyline than actually finished it?  So, makes sense to me that the one who stepped in at the end didn't know, or understand, where the original had wanted to go with it.  

That would make sense IF they had brought in a new showrunner from the outside. Dabb worked with Carver and should have a decent picture of whatever storyline they had.

9 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Bututthe one who stepped in at the end and started the Dean/Mary sl is the same who carried it through to this season - so it's possible that even then he knew where he wanted to go with it.

Yes, it is possible. Listening to interviews and then listening to Jensen, I just don't think they were interested enough in the Dean/Mary storyline to have really planned it that well from the beginning. I think they planned Deans story would be how he dealt with his Mom being back. That's what they said in the early interviews when it was actually mentioned. IMO, having it down to Dean needed to forgive his Mom was a lot deeper and more specific than they had developed the storyline. IMO, they only had a simple Dean has to figure out his relationship with Mom which is how they presented it preseason.

[gonzosgirrl]

54 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

I'd agree with this except that I think Jack's footprints glowing were supposed to show that he'd just gone that way, not that he'd gone that way before Mary ran outside. 

I agree with this, which really only means there is either an explanation to come, or (more likely) yet another giant plot hole that will never be explained. But something happened between the flash of light that knocked Mary out and her running outside. I'd buy the third option of it just being a continuity error if they didn't make a point of Sam closing Kelly's eyes.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

10 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

That would make sense IF they had brought in a new showrunner from the outside. Dabb worked with Carver and should have a decent picture of whatever storyline they had.

Not necessarily.  It depends on personality, imo.  Some people aren't the sharing their ideas type (and maybe Carver didn't have a clear enough picture to share) or maybe he just didn't convey his ideas well (I've had managers like that.)  We don't know what either Carver or Dabb are like to work with, what type of boss or showrunner they are or what working relationship they may have had with each other or what Dabb's relationship with his other writers is like.  

10 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

IMO, they only had a simple Dean has to figure out his relationship with Mom which is how they presented it preseason.

All I'm saying is Maybe Maybe Not.  Even if they did have it planned from the beginning, I don't think they would have spilled all the beans up front!  You don't give the whole plot away beforehand.  That's just show business.  

27 minutes ago, SueB said:

Winner Winner Chicken Dinner (IMO). 

And you just made me hungry! :)

Edited May 26, 2017 by RulerofallIsurvey
lunch

[Idahoforspn]

5 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

All I'm saying is Maybe Maybe Not.  

That's fair. I can agree there.

[CluelessDrifter]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

Interesting.... and you are right. Did Mary just run outside while a baby laid on the bed?  Did Mary have a conversation w/ Jack (who was in little kid form) and she told him to HIDE if she didn't come back?  We did see a big glowy/flash thingy that caught Sam's attention.  Man... there was SO MUCH in the last 10 minutes... lots to unpack.

There really is a lot to unpack.  We've all been so wrapped up in the deaths we haven't really thought about the Kelly/Mary/Jack timeline much.

Edited May 26, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[AwesomO4000]

5 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I agree he was floudering, but it never really came across as needing to forgive.  I always interpreted it more as Dean realizing the real Mary wasn't the one of this memories and he was trying to reconcile that. 

I wasn't trying to say that Dean knew what he needed in the beginning, or that the show knew specifically that Dean needed to forgive Mary for the deal, but I meant that the scene there showed that Dean needed something, and that the show was likely going for forgiveness of some kind. I thought Dean was looking through the pictures, because he was subconsciously trying to figure out what it was he did need. As I said, Sam, too, referred to Mary filling a hole he didn't even know he had, so I thought a theme of needing something, but maybe not exactly knowing what was introduced there. For Sam, just seeing Mary and talking with her somehow did that - answered some questions or some need - for him, but I was saying for Dean, it wasn't that simple. That Dean still didn't know what he needed... he just knew that, for him, Mary just being there wasn't enough - he needed more, but he didn't know what, and was looking for that what.

I agree it probably wasn't specifically thought out exactly what Dean was supposed to forgive Mary for yet or that Dean knew what it was he needed, but I agree with RulerofallIsurvey here:

2 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I don't know.  It just doesn't seem plausible to me that the writers would write Amara telling Dean, "I'm going to give you what you need the most"  - which was then Mary - when she'd (Amara) had just experienced forgiveness and reconciliation with her brother - but they didn't know that forgiveness (and eventual reconciliation) was the reason Amara gave Mary back to Dean.

It makes sense to me that if Amara finally realized what she needed was to forgive and reconcile with Chuck, and Dean was the one who gave that to her - through showing her what Chuck's "creation" was all about and getting them together - it would make sense to me that she would give Dean that same chance. But like Dean, Amara didn't know what she wanted or needed to start with either. It was a process. At first Amara thought she needed revenge, but that's not what it turned out to be that she needed at all.

So for me, Dean not knowing what he wanted (and that it was forgiveness) paralleled Amara's journey and that makes sense. The show may not have decided that Dean forgiving Mary for the deal was specifically what he needed, but based on what Ruler said above, I think it's possible that they had some sort of forgiveness in mind. And I say that, because Amara said that Dean gave her what she needed, and now she was going to do the same for him... give him that chance to forgive and reconcile.

But I get that miles will vary there.

[rue721]

Yeah, I think the initial idea (in the S11 finale) was:

Chuck : Amara :: Mary : Dean

IMO that's how Amara saw it, anyway, which is why she gave Mary back.

[Idahoforspn]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And I say that, because Amara said that Dean gave her what she needed, and now she was going to do the same for him... give him that chance to forgive and reconcile.

But I get that miles will vary there.

What makes us believe Amara even knew anything about Mary and Dean's past? She was locked away for all that and didn't know what a cheeseburger was, let alone Dean's history with his mother. Crowley had to teach her world history. Nobody taught her Dean history that we  ever saw. All the show really gave us on why it was Mom ,IMO, was the photo Amara found in the bunker.  That photo was of a loving Mom and her little boy. Knowing nothing of Dean's history, I can see her wanting to give Dean someone who would LOVE him unconditionally. That's what Amara and Chuck finally realized too. They loved each other (which was a little uncomfortable but that's just me). The photo and the generic concept of a Mother's love was enough for Amara to think that's what Dean needed. I have always felt since Amara said she was going to give Dean what he needed was that it was someone to love him. Forgiveness never even occurred to me all season long and the fact that Mary was so distant broke my heart because I thought Amara intended Mary to love Dean. If the "forgiveness" was intended from the beginning, the show didn't do a very good job of developing the concept for me. But I recognize there is more than one way to see it. I just wanted to articulate some additional thoughts I had.

[AwesomO4000]

34 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

What makes us believe Amara even knew anything about Mary and Dean's past? She was locked away for all that and didn't know what a cheeseburger was, let alone Dean's history with his mother.

Hmm, interesting. I didn't even consider that, because she was Chuck's sister, and Chuck knows everything, so I figured when Amara came to her full power that she would, too.

Also she had a bond with Dean, including sending him a vision of the future in the first episode... or sending a vision from herself in the future to Dean in the past perhaps, since in the future is when she got her powers juiced up. Anyway, she was in Dean's head from the beginning of the season.

Maybe Amara seeing that picture of Mary and Dean triggered something that she felt in Dean's head. That feelings Dean had now concerning Mary were conflicted, but the photo showed better times - sort of like how she and Chuck used to be before it all went wrong - and once she was with Chuck and realized how good it was to have that forgiveness and reconciliation, she wanted Dean to have that back, now too, just like she now did again with Chuck.

I guess I could see it being either thing, but I'm still somewhat leaning towards the forgiveness, because if Amara just wanted Dean to have Mary's love, she could've brought back a version of Mary from before she died or altered Mary in some way - i.e. given Mary previous knowledge of Dean and Sam's life, etc. - to just be loving... But then Dean might still have his abandonment issues and maybe still wouldn't be able to connect with Mary, but not know why. Sure Mary would love him, but would Dean potentially wonder - even subconsciously - why now? and/or is it just too late? He might even feel a bit guilty for maybe not being completely satisfied with Mary showing all this love now when he might be subconsciously thinking "why didn't she care enough about us back then by doing more to save us, warn John, etc.?

But as usual, I just could be overthinking this. I tend to do that.

Edited May 26, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[gonzosgirrl]

10 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Hmm, interesting. I didn't even consider that, because she was Chuck's sister, and Chuck knows everything, so I figured when Amara came to her full power that she would, too.

Also she had a bond with Dean, including sending him a vision of the future in the first episode... or sending a vision from herself in the future to Dean in the past perhaps, since in the future is when she got her powers juiced up. Anyway, she was in Dean's head from the beginning of the season.

Maybe Amara seeing that picture of Mary and Dean triggered something that she felt in Dean's head. That feelings Dean had now concerning Mary were conflicted, but the photo showed better times - sort of like how she and Chuck used to be before it all went wrong - and once she was with Chuck and realized how good it was to have that forgiveness and reconciliation, she wanted Dean to have that back, now too, just like she now did again with Chuck.

I guess I could see it being either thing, but I'm still somewhat leaning towards the forgiveness, because if Amara just wanted Dean to have Mary's love, she could've brought back a version of Mary from before she died or altered Mary in some way - i.e. given Mary previous knowledge of Dean and Sam's life, etc. - to just be loving... But then Dean might still have his abandonment issues and maybe still wouldn't be able to connect with Mary, but not know why. Sure Mary would love him, but would Dean potentially wonder - even subconsciously - why now? and/or is it just too late? He might even feel a bit guilty for maybe not being completely satisfied with Mary showing all this love now when he might be subconsciously thinking "why didn't she care enough about us back then by doing more to save us, warn John, etc.?

But as usual, I just could be overthinking this. I tend to do that.

Her decision to gift Dean was made in about 30 seconds after she and Chuck reunited - so I don't think there was much thought on her part beyond "I got my family back, so I'm going to give you yours". She saw a picture of Mary, so Mary it was. I don't even know if 'someone to love you' came into the equation, never mind, 'someone with whom you can resolve your decades long internal conflict you didn't even know you had'.

 

PS... on a random note, I had a couple of funny back and forths with Emily Swallow on Twitter about what a sucky gift-giver she was. She thought so, too.

Edited May 26, 2017 by gonzosgirrl
grammar. ugh.

[Idahoforspn]

5 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Hmm, interesting. I didn't even consider that, because she was Chuck's sister, and Chuck knows everything, so I figured when Amara came to her full power that she would, too.

We were never given any indication of that on screen. In fact, I would argue we were shown more of the opposite.

5 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Also she had a bond with Dean, including sending him a vision of the future in the first episode... or sending a vision from herself in the future to Dean in the past perhaps, since in the future is when she got her powers juiced up. Anyway, she was in Dean's head from the beginning of the season.

But we were never shown she could get into his head that well. If she understood his thoughts and feelings we wouldn't have seen her confused by Dean and his reactions.

5 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Maybe Amara seeing that picture of Mary and Dean triggered something that she felt in Dean's head. That feelings Dean had now concerning Mary were conflicted, but the photo showed better times - sort of like how she and Chuck used to be before it all went wrong - and once she was with Chuck and realized how good it was to have that forgiveness and reconciliation, she wanted Dean to have that back, now too, just like she now did again with Chuck.

I don't give the writers that much credit. I usually go with the obvious, not the convoluted concerning their character development. They usually aren't nuanced in the writing IMO. They like anvils when they have something specific.

5 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I guess I could see it being either thing

And it could be what your saying. I just lean the other way.

5 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

because if Amara just wanted Dean to have Mary's love, she could've brought back a version of Mary from before she died or altered Mary in some way - i.e. given Mary previous knowledge of Dean and Sam's life, etc. - to just be loving... But then Dean might still have his abandonment issues and maybe still wouldn't be able to connect with Mary, but not know why. Sure Mary would love him, but would Dean potentially wonder - even subconsciously - why now? and/or is it just too late? He might even feel a bit guilty for maybe not being completely satisfied with Mary showing all this love now when he might be subconsciously thinking "why didn't she care enough about us back then by doing more to save us, warn John, etc.?

 

Actually, I do agree that's overthinking it. I really doubt the writers think about it that much. Unfortunately I doubt we'll ever know. Even if they came out and said something now, there would be tons of well deserved speculation that they were just trying to take undeserved credit for a happy accident.

12 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Her decision to gift Dean was made in about 30 seconds after she and Chuck reunited - so I don't think there was much thought on her part beyond "I got my family back, so I'm going to give you yours". She saw a picture of Mary, so Mary it was.

Man, you just condensed everything I said into two sentences and even simplified it more. I really suck at this.

[AwesomO4000]

2 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

But we were never shown she could get into his head that well. If she understood his thoughts and feelings we wouldn't have seen her confused by Dean and his reactions.

Well, she was locked away for a long time. She could have been seeing things in Dean's head and still not quite understood what she was seeing at first - until she experienced them for herself maybe. Bad example: Like say I saw and felt someone's experience of riding a camel, but I didn't even know what a camel was or even what the movement was supposed to be accomplishing. Would I see the experience like the person - who may have enjoyed it - or would it maybe look/feel scary and confusing at first, despite the feelings the other person had been feeling. Amara saw people - and Chuck's universe in general - as flawed and not worth her attention at first, so it makes sense to me that she wouldn't understand at first Dean's love for people or the world, even if she was seeing/feeling it through his head, so it makes sense that she would find Dean's experiences and thoughts confusing. But eventually being connected to him, maybe she learned to see the world through Dean's lens so to speak. That's what I thought was going on anyway.*

*(I think I once described it as Dean being like a bicycle with training wheels for her, because she could experience things through him without worrying that she would hurt him - or herself - whereas with regular people, there was always the worry that she would kill them or hurt herself emotionally.)

42 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Her decision to gift Dean was made in about 30 seconds after she and Chuck reunited - so I don't think there was much thought on her part beyond "I got my family back, so I'm going to give you yours".

But Amara's an omniscient being, so she could potentially do/figure out a lot in 30 seconds.

If it is just a happy coincidence or accident, it was, for me, a fairly fortuitous one, because for me, watching the episode last night, the parallel of Amara - Chuck and Dean - Mary came into focus for me. So someone's mind on the writing staff is good at making accidental and/or subconscious connections between his/her arcs. For me anyway.

[catrox14]

23 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Her decision to gift Dean was made in about 30 seconds after she and Chuck reunited - so I don't think there was much thought on her part beyond "I got my family back, so I'm going to give you yours". She saw a picture of Mary, so Mary it was. I don't even know if 'someone to love you' came into the equation, never mind, 'someone with whom you can resolve your decades long internal conflict you didn't even know you had'.

This is how I see it.

Dean harboring subconscious or repressed hatred for a parent that he can't help but love, who made him be a brother, father and a mother makes complete sense for John. Dean's Mary whenvace was all "Eh...not so much" twhen Mary said what a great Dad John was..tells me that Dean definitely had John issues.

I've often thought that everything between Dean and Mary was really more of a Dean/John arc.

I've thought, IF there was a plan  and arc plotted for Dean at the end of s11 for s12, that  already that involved Amara resurrecting a parent that Dean needed to forgive that it was really intended to be John. Maybe there were hopeful of getting JDM but couldn't & decided Cohen was too young for the John that raised and parentified Dean but they didn't want to abandon thei arc for Dean,  since they were giving Sam the BMOL thing. Mary didn't even need to be in the mix for Sam to join the BMOL unless one reads it as  Sam joining because Mary did. 

I would have found it SO MUCH more interesting to see Dean deal with John's resurrection and then have Sam and John join the BMOL. I mean it would have be right up John's ally to want to wipe out all the monsters, so he could make up for what he did to Dean, mostly. 

I really wonder what John would make of Dean's relationship with Cas..(not in a Destiel shippy way) but their friendship. 

[gonzosgirrl]

7 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

But Amara's an omniscient being, so she could potentially do/figure out a lot in 30 seconds.

 

Her omniscience didn't exactly serve her well over the course of the season though, even when it came to Dean, whom she supposedly had the connection with.

I would bet money that 'Dean loves his mother' and 'Mary's death was the cause of all that went wrong in his life', were the two mitigating factors in the writers/showrunners minds at the end of S11. That it morphed into Dean needing to forgive Mary was maybe more of an organic, ongoing progression than a happy accident, but I don't believe it was an idea conceived in 11x23.

Edited May 26, 2017 by gonzosgirrl
goddamnit I can't have one post without a typo can I

[Wayward Son]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 

Ireally wonder what John would make of Dean's relationship with Cas..(not in a Destiel shippy way) but their friendship. 

 

I reckon John would have loathed it along with their friendship with Garth considering his rather black and white view of monsters. 

[catrox14]

I think this was a happy accident.

I think someone in the writers room got the idea that they wanted to punch the audience in the face with the shock of Dean saying "I hate you" to the only person in the show to whom he canonically, said "I love you".  And Dean could have done that with everything being about Dean and Mary's frosty relationship in s12. Not about a subconscious or repressed life long hatred for Mary over the deal that Dean had made peace with years ago.

 

6 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I reckon John would have loathed it along with their friendship with Garth considering his rather black and white view of monsters. 

Maybe so. I was just thinking how John was always such an independent hunter and seemed to not get along with anyone so would he just be mad at Dean for having an angel for a best friend or have any close friends at all.

[AwesomO4000]

33 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I would bet money that 'Dean loves his mother' and 'Mary's death was the cause of all that went wrong in his life', were the two mitigating factors in the writers/showrunners minds at the end of S11.

I can go with this, because for me in the end, it still has some connections. I can see Mary's death was the cause of all the bad in Dean's life ending up as Dean is subconsciously angry with / blaming Mary because her death caused all the bad that happened in his life, and to take it further, her death happened because of her deal and her potentially ignoring that and not warning anyone. And even if Dean understood her making the deal, that doesn't mean he couldn't also feel *something* (anger, annoyance, discontent) that it happened and that potentially precautions could've been taken but weren't. Dean has enough issues with people keeping information from him. That Mary might've / should've known something could happen and didn't warn anyone - especially considering the consequences - might be something Dean would feel unhappy about, especially confronted with Mary's fantasy of hiding in her "safe" memories and potentially ignoring the real threat.

As for parallels: Amara could've looked at it - and she sort of did, because she said so - as everything was fine until Chuck decided to create other things. So Chuck's creating things could be like Mary's death for Dean. It was the start - in her mind - of all of her problems.

Yay - gimme more! I'll create some more parallels! (Apparently I'm in a mood this afternoon. ; ) )

Edited to add:

Quote

Not about a subconscious or repressed life long hatred for Mary over the deal that Dean had made peace with years ago.

I don't think it was a life-long repressed hatred of Mary. I don't think Dean even realized he was angry until he heard Mary promising to keep him safe, but knew that she didn't even though maybe she could've done something to warn John, perhaps.

Throughout the season, I think Dean's memories - molded over time through John's influence - were coming into direct conflict with the reality of Mary. And with that, Dean maybe began wondering what else wasn't what he thought it was... and that unease eventually morphed into him realizing that in addition to loving his mother, he was also angry at her for indirectly taking that love away (by dying). He might've told himself that his mom always did what she could to protect them, but in reality he knew she didn't, so did she love her delusion of a happy life more than she loved them? Because warning John would've maybe meant compromising her "happy family' scenario.

Kind of like Mary was maybe angry at Sam and Dean being the indirect cause of taking her happy, heaven dream family away. (I don't think Mary's dealt with that yet though.) And maybe Dean, seeing Mary's headscape family put it together with "hey, we're right here, but she'd rather have this illusion family?" So anger maybe didn't enter into it until Dean saw Mary trying to avoid reality again, and his brain said "hey. what's going on here?"

Or something.

Edited May 26, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[gonzosgirrl]

14 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I can go with this, because for me in the end, it still has some connections. I can see Mary's death was the cause of all the bad in Dean's life ending up as Dean is subconsciously angry with / blaming Mary because her death caused all the bad that happened in his life, and to take it further, her death happened because of her deal and her potentially ignoring that and not warning anyone. And even if Dean understood her making the deal, that doesn't mean he couldn't also feel *something* (anger, annoyance, discontent) that it happened and that potentially precautions could've been taken but weren't. Dean has enough issues with people keeping information from him. That Mary might've / should've known something could happen and didn't warn anyone - especially considering the consequences - might be something Dean would feel unhappy about, especially confronted with Mary's fantasy of hiding in her "safe" memories and potentially ignoring the real threat.

As for parallels: Amara could've looked at it - and she sort of did, because she said so - as everything was fine until Chuck decided to create other things. So Chuck's creating things could be like Mary's death for Dean. It was the start - in her mind - of all of her problems.

Yay - gimme more! I'll create some more parallels! (Apparently I'm in a mood this afternoon. ; ) )

I meant the "Mary's death was the cause of all that went wrong in his life', more along the lines of she thought that simply bringing her back would make him happy, et voila! more so than it would cause him to examine all the reasons why their shitty lives were her fault and realize his salvation lay in forgiveness. Honestly, I just don't think these writers are all that deep. I would bet all I own that we think about these things a thousand times deeper and more thoroughly than anyone in the SPN bullpen does.

[AwesomO4000]

8 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I meant the "Mary's death was the cause of all that went wrong in his life', more along the lines of she thought that simply bringing her back would make him happy, et voila!

Ah, okay, gotcha. Although short-sighted of her, because apparently having Chuck back in her life wasn't enough - they had issues to work out. Amara may have said "I only want to talk with him," but that wasn't really what she seemed to want at all. She didn't exactly know what she wanted.

So it could be that Amara simply thought giving Dean his mother would be what Dean needed, but that doesn't mean the writers had the same plans... or I think in that case Mary being back would have solved all of Dean's problems. It could be an Amara happy mistake, but the writers wanted it to be instead the forgiveness parallel all along.

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I would have found it SO MUCH more interesting to see Dean deal with John's resurrection and then have Sam and John join the BMOL. I mean it would have be right up John's ally to want to wipe out all the monsters, so he could make up for what he did to Dean, mostly. 

Hee!  I can see John's agreeing with the BMoL's goal to get rid of all of the monsters, but imagining John - who doesn't seem to get along with anybody - joining the BMoL makes me smile. The first time they tried to boss him around - I myself wonder how he ever survived the military - I can imagine him saying "screw this" and sneaking back in to steal all of their gadgetry to go hunting on his own or with Dean (John and Sam would likely maim each other at some point - they just can't help getting under each other's skin.)

And Sam and Dean being tortured by Lady Toni? I can't imagine that John would let that stand. He's the only one who gets to torture Sam and Dean. (I kid, I kid... mostly).

[MysteryGuest]

I don't really have an opinion one way or the other as to whether they had a clear idea of the Dean/Mary arc, or not.  It was frustrating to watch during the season, but I think the ending brought everything together, at least for me.  Had Mary come back and been thrilled to meet her adult sons, I don't think Dean would have given a second thought to his old feelings toward his mother.   He and Sam would have just welcomed her back and been content.  But she didn't do that.  She was unsure and distant and in her own words, "cold" toward them.  She betrayed them by going behind their backs to work with the BMOL, and remained distant all season.  Then she's brainwashed, and they're told that she's hidden behind impenetrable walls.  When Dean confronts her in that dream state, he realizes that she was choosing to stay in her dreamworld, again rejecting her live sons,  and that was it for him.  When he first tells her he hates her, I think it caught him totally by surprise.  But it opened up the floodgates for all of his pain to come out.

Edited May 26, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[Idahoforspn]

53 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

It could be an Amara happy mistake, but the writers wanted it to be instead the forgiveness parallel all along.

And IMO, you give the writers a lot of credit which I doubt they earned. I personally don't think a writing staff that pretty much has trouble keeping even the mytharc stuff straight is capable of this kind of nuance and long term planning. And Dabb has already demonstrated, IMO, that he isn't that interested in Dean's storyline anyway so I  don't look for him to have  put this kind of thought into it. What over the past two seasons have you seen that display this depth of forethought and planning on an emotional arc? Just curious. I am trying to understand where you get the confidence in the writers you have.

[rue721]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Hee!  I can see John's agreeing with the BMoL's goal to get rid of all of the monsters, but imagining John - who doesn't seem to get along with anybody - joining the BMoL makes me smile. The first time they tried to boss him around - I myself wonder how he ever survived the military - I can imagine him saying "screw this" and sneaking back in to steal all of their gadgetry to go hunting on his own or with Dean (John and Sam would likely maim each other at some point - they just can't help getting under each other's skin.)

And Sam and Dean being tortured by Lady Toni? I can't imagine that John would let that stand. He's the only one who gets to torture Sam and Dean. (I kid, I kid... mostly).

Haha I would LOVE to have seen that. I would LOVE to have seen the epic falling out that John would no doubt have had with the BMOL and what he would have to say about them afterward.

I guess that's the thing, I just straight up think John is an interesting character, and LIKE him. He always comes off as an enormous pain the ass, but in a way I find endearing and entertaining -- because he's smart, and he evidently feels things deeply, and I can really respect (and enjoy watching) that. I just can't like Mary the same way, because she is just so so dry.

I think the idea of bringing Mary back is actually kind of awesome and ingenious, because how do you un-fridge a woman? What happens to everyone else when the un-fridging occurs? I like the set up. But she's not clever and doesn't have a lot of heart (or even personality), and it just gets so dry watching her all the time.

Edited May 26, 2017 by rue721

[Idahoforspn]

20 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Haha I would LOVE to have seen that. I would LOVE to have seen the epic falling out that John would no doubt have had with the BMOL and what he would have to say about them afterward.

I guess that's the thing, I just straight up think John is an interesting character, and LIKE him. He always comes off as an enormous pain the ass, but in a way I find endearing and entertaining -- because he's smart, and he evidently feels things deeply, and I can really respect (and enjoy watching) that. I just can't like Mary the same way, because she is just so so dry.

I think the idea of bringing Mary back is actually kind of awesome and ingenious, because how do you un-fridge a woman? What happens to everyone else when the un-fridging occurs? I like the set up. But she's not clever and doesn't have a lot of heart (or even personality), and it just gets so dry watching her all the time.

I much prefer John. I always found him very interesting and thought JDM was excellent. 

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, Idahoforspn said:

What over the past two seasons have you seen that display this depth of forethought and planning on an emotional arc? Just curious. I am trying to understand where you get the confidence in the writers you have.

I don't know if I can explain that fully here - maybe I'll also take this over to the "All Seasons" thread so as to minimize off topicness - or if I even can explain it. But I think the short answer is: because to me, it seems the story had more confidence in us, the viewer? I don't know, it just seemed to me that there were less anvils in the past couple of seasons - or at least less anvils that I'm remembering. I remember from season 9, being really annoyed with the Ghostfacers episode. I could tell that it was supposed to be some sort of huge anvil, but I remember that we viewers couldn't even agree on exactly who the anvil was about - i.e. which was representing Dean and which was Sam. And then in season 10, there was the werewolf episode - same thing: huge, annoying anvil, but again we couldn't even agree on what the anvil was trying to tell us exactly. So for me, it was basically storytelling that decided we, the viewers, needed some sort of message to tell us what the emotional arc was supposed to be... but they couldn't even get the message across quite clearly even as they were hitting us over the head with it. Whereas I saw what I thought the writers were trying to tell me in season 11 through all the little details they gave - but without hitting us over the head with annoying avatars of what they thought we were supposed to be seeing that mostly just detracted from what I was seeing (because I didn't generally agree with them.)

I'll take those details (and for me there were a lot) that for me fleshed out the emotional arc and story - if you are still interested in my potential ramblings - over to the "All Seasons Thread."

And of course for me this does not apply to Sam's emotional arc, because that one got derailed in the middle of the season for me. It ended ehn okay, but I didn't agree with the shortcuts the writers took to get there. But as I said, in my case, with what I usually get for Sam's emotional arcs post season 7 (I thought season 6 and 7 were excellent emotional arcs for Sam, for example) at least this season didn't also trash Sam as well as give him an emotional arc that didn't make much sense. I'm used to not so good Sam emotional arcs by now, because as I said, since the beginning of season 8, those are more the norm than good arcs. I liked season 11 though, and season 10 alllmost got there... and then kinda blew it for me in the end.*

* For those who get the reference: imagine that Will and Grace episode where Grace and Jack get on the Antiques Road Show where they love to watch the people think they have that great antique only to find out in the end that it's just a really good reproduction and Grace and Jack love to go "oohhh" in an "oohh... so close" way. That's what season 10 was for me.

Sorry, that probably didn't answer your question very much. : /

[Idahoforspn]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I don't know if I can explain that fully here - maybe I'll also take this over to the "All Seasons" thread so as to minimize off topicness - or if I even can explain it. But I think the short answer is: because to me, it seems the story had more confidence in us, the viewer? I don't know, it just seemed to me that there were less anvils in the past couple of seasons - or at least less anvils that I'm remembering. I remember from season 9, being really annoyed with the Ghostfacers episode. I could tell that it was supposed to be some sort of huge anvil, but I remember that we viewers couldn't even agree on exactly who the anvil was about - i.e. which was representing Dean and which was Sam. And then in season 10, there was the werewolf episode - same thing: huge, annoying anvil, but again we couldn't even agree on what the anvil was trying to tell us exactly. So for me, it was basically storytelling that decided we, the viewers, needed some sort of message to tell us what the emotional arc was supposed to be... but they couldn't even get the message across quite clearly even as they were hitting us over the head with it. Whereas I saw what I thought the writers were trying to tell me in season 11 through all the little details they gave - but without hitting us over the head with annoying avatars of what they thought we were supposed to be seeing that mostly just detracted from what I was seeing (because I didn't generally agree with them.)

I'll take those details (and for me there were a lot) that for me fleshed out the emotional arc and story - if you are still interested in my potential ramblings - over to the "All Seasons Thread."

And of course for me this does not apply to Sam's emotional arc, because that one got derailed in the middle of the season for me. It ended ehn okay, but I didn't agree with the shortcuts the writers took to get there. But as I said, in my case, with what I usually get for Sam's emotional arcs post season 7 (I thought season 6 and 7 were excellent emotional arcs for Sam, for example) at least this season didn't also trash Sam as well as give him an emotional arc that didn't make much sense. I'm used to not so good Sam emotional arcs by now, because as I said, since the beginning of season 8, those are more the norm than good arcs. I liked season 11 though, and season 10 alllmost got there... and then kinda blew it for me in the end.*

* For those who get the reference: imagine that Will and Grace episode where Grace and Jack get on the Antiques Road Show where they love to watch the people think they have that great antique only to find out in the end that it's just a really good reproduction and Grace and Jack love to go "oohhh" in an "oohh... so close" way. That's what season 10 was for me.

Sorry, that probably didn't answer your question very much. : /

Let's just agree I'm kind of dense sometimes and tend more to concrete thing. Sometimes the more abstract confuses me a little. I've read this several times and am just not finding anything specific that helps me to better understand where you are coming from. How about we just accept that we have differing ideas on this one and that we both feel we have sound reasons for our opinions. Thank you for taking the time to try and explain your thought process to me. Its obvious you carefully considered my question along with your answer and  I really appreciate it. I'm sure there will be other things about SPN we will want to discuss. :-)

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, Idahoforspn said:

Let's just agree I'm kind of dense sometimes and tend more to concrete thing.

I wouldn't say you are dense at all! You apparently get the "anvils" (I usually don't), and weirdly I kind of find the supposed "anvils" abstract myself. As I said, other than me recognizing that they are anvils, for me message-wise, they sometimes aren't very clear - since at the time of the episodes on here, a bunch of us couldn't agree on what the message was even supposed to be, and not even a little disagreement - as in I would get the opposite meaning out of the anvil! (So apparently I am even more dense, since I can't even get the anvil message the writers are trying to give me!)*

I find important details more solid, and that's what I liked about season 11, especially. There were little details (often repeated so I knew the writers thought they were important)*** that told me things so I could figure out the rest... but I don't want to go anymore astray off topic, which I am want to do, : ( so I won't take up any more of your time.

Thanks for the discussion. It was interesting.

* This was the part that I was most trying to get across in my post above. I should have bolded that part. (i.e. that despite the "anvils", I often still can't figure out the message.)

*** Apparently my brain likes factoids, especially repeated ones I can focus on.

Edited May 27, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[Idahoforspn]

3 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

You apparently get the "anvils" (I usually don't), and weirdly I kind of find the supposed "anvils" abstract myself. As I said, other than me recognizing that they are anvils, for me message-wise, they sometimes aren't very clear -

I think I understood that. Maybe there is hope for me. :-)

[Idahoforspn]

So if I do a rewatch of season 12, which is the appropriate thread to comment?