S05.E24: Hurt Me, Hurt You

[atlantaloves]

You guys are the best, thank you so much for pointing out that the mystery woman was not real, and his vision of his Mum. I didn't pick up on that at all, thank you thank you thank you. I like to have cocktails while watching this terrific show and totally missed that! Yeah, I am over Shinwell, he bogged down the entire season, and I adore this show. So glad he is gone, now let's get Sherlock well again! Joan to the rescue!

[theatremouse]

Even though Watson never cited the proverb mentioned upthread, it essentially describes exactly what I thought her feelings were based on what we were shown. I think when the character were first introduced she may have even described her feelings similarly, so I don't think it was unclear on the why Watson felt so attached to him. Finding that emotionally believable and/or empathizing with it is another issue altogether, but  I do not think the issue was the show failing to provide a reason.

[HawaiiTVGuy]

On 5/21/2017 at 11:17 PM, johntfs said:

Sherlock defines himself by his ability to observe and deduce from those observations.  So what is he now if he cannot rely on his observations to be stuff that's actually there?  It's not about "Oh, no, Sherlock has the brain cancers!"  It's who is Sherlock going to be if he can't trust himself to be a detective?

It seems like a problem is he can't trust his memory as well.  Wonder if it is a terminal condition or result of the head trauma from the beating he got from Shinwell.  IIRC he never went to the hospital to get checked out in spite of suffering what looked to be an obvious concussion.

But it could be a mental thing, didn't Morland imply that Sherlock's mom had a mental illness?  And does Joan know about that?  I can understand how some people feel Joan should have thought of other explanations, but we should remember that all she knows is he is sleeping a lot more and seems to be forgetting in an "inconsiderate" manner, not because he actually has no memory of events.  If she knew he was hallucinating and completely blanking on doing things, I am sure she would have skipped past drug use to something more medical.

@Gregg24 and @CaptainTightpants I am not bent out of shape over the ethical behavior of Joan, it wasn't like the other gang wouldn't have known who to go after once the arrest was made public etc.  It would have been a different matter if she just told him who it was and let him rampage through anyone and everyone to get him.  Instead she provided him with the best alternative, give me the evidence I need to remove the obstacles in your way.  The only way that Joan going to Mara Tres affected Tyus is that it blew up Tyus' plea deal...in other words, Tyus would have gone free and gotten away with murder if Joan didn't go to Mara Tres to get the body back.  They have absolutely no control over how things play out in jail.  Even if they somehow arrested Halcon, it isn't like he wouldn't be able to put out a hit on Tyus while in jail.  They didn't set up Tyus to be killed or anything.  She just got the evidence they needed to arrest and convict him.  What happens next would have happened regardless of the meeting with Halcon.  Of course in court, there is an issue with chain of custody regarding the body and the blood evidence, but I am sure any post-arrest pictures of Tyus will show corresponding bite marks on his body and they can match the bite mark with the victim's teeth, thus providing all the evidence they need to get the conviction.  Of course...all the associated evidence regarding his gang ties (all perfectly relevant to show motive of the crime) would have probably made his conviction a slam dunk anyway.

@mandigirl actually what Joan did in telling Halcon directly they know who did it in SBK is designed to specifically save lives.  An all out gang war would have collateral damage, however, telling Halcon they had exactly who he was looking for and not to mention all the associated gang members would be rounded up as well, that saves lives in the long run.  Also, I think that the implication is there was a lot of other evidence outside of just Tyus' testimony to round up the gang.  IIRC correctly, the police/DA can't make a case with just the testimony of a co-conspirator (in this case it would be Tyus since he is the admitted head of the organization so an obvious conspirator), I am guessing he told them where all the bodies were buried and the drugs were stashed.

This is my take on Watson's anger at Sherlock for not being there, it was because he said he would be there and he wasn't.  It was the breaking of the commitment that got her upset.  If Sherlock had just said, no, I don't feel comfortable going to the services of a murderer who beat me up, then that would have been fine.  And again, she is looking at him not going as just being inconsiderate and rude, especially with no text or call to say he wasn't showing up.  And as mentioned above, she wasn't buying his excuse at not remembering.

Regarding why Watson still was helping Shinwell, it was pretty simple.  They had no evidence to convict Shinwell for the murder of Jameel.  The police already said they wouldn't press charges against Shinwell even after Jameel's brother provided the full statement.  Actually not sure if this happened, but did this information cause the police to remove him from CI status though, and thus he would be continuing his activities without police support?  If that is the case, then the choice was simple for Joan, let Shinwell go at the SBK take down on his own, or help him do it.  Either way, he was not going to be convicted of Jameel's murder, so why not help him take down a gang.

Edited May 25, 2017 by HawaiiTVGuy

[Clanstarling]

On 5/22/2017 at 7:44 PM, CaptainTightpants said:

It doesn't have to be a tumour/ cancer that is causing Sherlock's troubles. It could very well be that he developed a slow intracranial bleed from the blow to the head a few weeks ago. Once this type of swelling is discovered it is usually not difficult to repair. 

I can totally understand Sherlock's reluctance to address the issue because they usually do have to drill into the head to reduce the pressure. And as it has been mentioned upthread, I don't think he could cope with any altered cognitive capacity. 

I think Sherlock's having the same fear that any of us who start having memory problems do.  The fear of Alzheimer's is huge, particularly for those who have more of an internal life than an external one. Sherlock's life is analytic and memory related, he fears he might find out he has a permanent condition that will only get worse, thus losing himself entirely.

On 5/23/2017 at 8:11 AM, ZoqFotPik said:

Let me get something straight, Tyus said that they checked Shinwell's phone, found 'Doc' on speed dial, and used that number to identify Joan. Is that correct? So Shinwell used Joan's everyday cellphone as his primary contact and didn't even bother to use any kind of alias? And Joan let him do that? I'm kind of Sherlock's side here. Shinwell was an imbecile that got in way over is head.

Yeah, that got me too. It's kind of undercover 101, I would think. Wouldn't the guy who ran (was he FBI?) have set him up with a different phone?

On 5/23/2017 at 6:49 PM, AEMom said:

Maybe it's because I've been up to my eyeballs dealing with family members affected with Alzheimers for the last 6 years, but I was thinking of early-onset Alzheimers affecting Sherlock. 

That would be Sherlock's worst nightmare and how they deal with it over the next season would definitely be interesting television.

I'm sorry, AEMOM. I've been there. It's devastating. Though for me, I wouldn't find that interesting, I want to stay as far away from Alzheimer's plots as possible.  I had to stop watching a show during my own experience with a family member, because they had a season long arc about it. TV is escape for me.

On 5/25/2017 at 3:40 AM, johntfs said:

I don't think that's quite true.  Since he had immunity for everything else, the only way to get Tyus was to pin the murder of Halcon's sister on him.  The only way that could realistically happen was if Halcon gave up her body so the police could find evidence.  So, Joan appealed to Halcon's desire for justice/revenge to get him to give up the body.  I doubt she'll cry if/when Tyus gets shivved in prison, but Joan went to Halcon to get the evidence to convict Tyus in a court of law, not take out a hit on him.

I didn't have any trouble figuring out Joan's motives regarding Shinwell.  It was just a matter of thinking like an imperfect human person, which I also am.

Yeah, but she did dangle the lure of how easy it would be to kill him in jail, which shocked me. Seemed pretty much taking a hit out on him, to me.  My thought as I watched was, well look at Joan break bad.

[paigow]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

Yeah, but she did dangle the lure of how easy it would be to kill him in jail, which shocked me. Seemed pretty much taking a hit out on him, to me.  My thought as I watched was, well look at Joan break bad.

This was the only pitch to get the body released...the alternative was the gang losing a lot of redshirts shooting it out with NYPD / US Marshals, thereby leaving them vulnerable against other enemies....

[shapeshifter]

On 5/25/2017 at 0:51 AM, johntfs said:

On 5/24/2017 at 9:30 PM, shapeshifter said:

On 5/23/2017 at 11:44 PM, johntfs said:

. . . Remember that Joan's family comes out of a Chinese culture, even if Joan is thoroughly American.  One well-known ancient Chinese proverb is "If you save someone's life, your are responsible for what they do with that life from the time that you saved it."

. . . This would have explained Joan's entire season-long arc. Why was it not introduced early, or even at all?

And thanks, @johntfs, for sharing that proverb. It coincidentally applies to a conversation I had with a doctor yesterday.

. . . It's not like Joan constantly quotes Confucius or consults the I-Ching.  She absorbed a lot of that culture from her mother, but she's also very much a modern American woman. . . .

You're welcome.

I was thinking more along the lines of the writers maybe having Sherlock quote the proverb at her, which would trigger an expository conversation between them that would explain Joan's motives.
But anyway, I was so intrigued with the idea of such a proverb that I did a little research on it and found that it might only be a fictional trope, perhaps most famously appearing in a 1975 episode of the TV show Kung Fu (http://www.kungfu-guide.com/kftos_g.htm):

Quote

#57 (Prod # 166271) "THE LAST RAID"
Teleplay By:: John T. Dugan (also #20, 29, 40, 45 & 46)
Directed By:: Alex Beaton (also producer)
First Broadcast: April 26, 1975 
Guest Stars: Hal Williams, L.Q. Jones (also #4), Charles Aidman, Charles Haid, Hoke Howell, Mae Mercer
On his way to Lordsville to answer a summons from Serenity Johnson (which he does in the following episode "Ambush" even though it seems "Ambush" was originally broadcast first), Caine visits old friends from "The Well" just as their son is kidnapped by former Confederate raiders who continue to fight the Civil War.
Lines:

"You know what Caine says? 'Whenever someone saves another's life, he's responsible for him forever.'" - Caine, quoted by young Brown

Information: There are no flashbacks to China in this episode just to #16 "The Well" to which this is a sequel.

If, in fact, there is no such proverb, it's interesting that in the episode the character to whom it is attributed does not actually say it. Perhaps the Kung Fu writers knew the "proverb" was itself a legend.

[basiltherat]

Well, if it didn't start out as a proverb, it certainly became one!

Also, I almost laughed when Joan went to Shinwell's service and NO ONE WAS THERE.  That sort of sums up Shinwell for me.

[Clanstarling]

23 minutes ago, basiltherat said:

Well, if it didn't start out as a proverb, it certainly became one!

Also, I almost laughed when Joan went to Shinwell's service and NO ONE WAS THERE.  That sort of sums up Shinwell for me.

I didn't care for Shinwell, but it made me sad that his daughter didn't even show up. I've gone to a funeral of a family member where just three of us (me, my husband, and child) showed up, and we did it out of duty. Like Shinwell, the person burned a lot of bridges. But it was still sad that at the end of a life, there's no one who really wants to say goodbye.

[MissLucas]

Didn't they say that nobody showed up because of the gang war? For some people he was a snitch and those who still felt for him probably did not dare showing up. And his daughter probably did not even know he was dead.

Also: I don't care if that proverb is authentic or not. Imagine how many lives Watson has saved during her time as a surgeon (and before as an intern) and even during her time with Holmes. What exactly made Shinwell so special? Was he the worst person she saved and that puts him in front of everyone else? Why exactly? Has Watson suddenly developed a savior complex? She kept that in check during her time as sober companion and that's what made her so good at that job. But let's say Shinwell being most in need of someone pushing him to redemption caused her to feel so responsible for him - it does not explain her emotional attachment  that caused her to act OOC on several occasions. And if the writers did not want us to read her actions as OOC they should have shown us how she reacted to Shinwell beating and injuring Holmes.

[Clanstarling]

On 5/28/2017 at 2:07 PM, MissLucas said:

And his daughter probably did not even know he was dead

Don't police generally contact next of kin? They knew he had a daughter, and where she was. My assumption is that she would have known.

[paigow]

What happened to "I saved your worthless ass, now obey me forever" ?

[tjsmom]

Speaking of proverbs, I've never noticed this before but in the autopsy room were Latin (?) words on the wall...I looked it up and it translates to "Let conversation cease, let laughter flee.  This is the place where death delights to help the living".  Apparently it's pretty standard in Western autopsy rooms.  I bet others noticed this before but it made me go running for Google!

Edited June 1, 2017 by tjsmom

[Mislav]

On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 7:57 AM, mandigirl said:

It would have been more realistic for Tyus to have gotten away. I call bullshit on Tyus needing to start a gang war to get a deal. Gang war or not, any D.A. would be insane not to make a deal with Tyus giving up one of the biggest gangs in the City. Years of intel and hundreds of open cases would be closed, not just with the gang, but their suppliers, the cartels-- other big fish. 

Despite what Gregson says, them nailing Tyus on one murder with perjury taints ALL the information he gives them. Maybe they connect some of his information with physical evidence, but for the large majority that relied heavily on his testimony, perjurer=reasonable doubt. 

Yeah, I'm with Gregg247 and CaptainTightPants (LOVE that name by the way!#browncoat) and other posters on this one. I was displeased with how Joan was this episode, especially on her handling on Tyus. Remember, the other gang leader killed two kids in his 'retaliation'! I'm sure this is some character arc, but its one that doesn't make much sense. 

I recently rewatched the episode (getting ready for season six). After reading some of the comments on this thread, I am honestly baffled that some posters seem upset by Joan's behavior. Yes, her attitude towards Sherlock was rude, at best. But "signing secret gang leader's death warrant"?

 

 

I mean, Tyus was basically a gang leader who caused (mostly indirectly, by his orders and actions but still) the deaths of dozens of people, including two children. He belonged in prison. And in the end, the only way to convict him of anything was to contact the rival gang leader and convince him to provide them with his sister's corpse. The part where Joan talks about Tyus getting murdered in prison did seem cold, but it is not like she gave the rival gang an idea to murder him. They would have eventually found out about his involvement anyway, and they already have "their men" in probably every prison in New York. That comment was simply Joan's way of convincing the guy to cooperate. And Tyus DID break the law, multiple times. HE made the choice to murder the rival gang leader's sister and start the war. And they could still place him in solitary confinement/protective custody once he was incarcerated. 

 

 

Yes, the rival leader is the one who actually murdered two children (well, his men did), and he got away with it, but if Joan hadn't reached out to the guy, both criminals would have gotten away. At least that leader hasn't had an immunity deal, so there is still a chance somebody will get him eventually. Not to mention, those murders, too, did happen due to a gang war that Tyus had started. What was she supposed to do; just let the guy get away?

 

 

And though I agree that Joan was rude to Sherlock, Sherlock had relapsed before, and he could have simply been honest with her (say that he's been having memory loss but doesn't know why and is concerned), rather than just pretend "he lost a track of time" and act like it was not a big deal. She probably would have understood; she was a doctor, after all. 

Edited January 8, 2018 by Mislav