S02.E09: Nightingale Sings No More

[formerlyfreedom]

Sunny relies on an unlikely person for help in defeating a foe; Bajie learns a shocking secret from his past.

[SimoneS]

Good episode. Too bad Quinn and the Widow will never die. They deserve painful deaths. Sunny keeps talking about leaving with Vail and Henry when clearly their only hope for survival is for Sunny to become the next most powerful and feared Baron. It wouldn't be hard for him to do. M.K. could be his regent in a few years once his gift returned and he learns to control it. 

Sunny is short for Sunshine. I like that. I am confident that Sunny and Bajie will free Vail and Henry next week. As for MK, he will have to hold his own against the Widow until Sunny and Bajie can rescue him next season. 

Go Tilda! Finally, her eyes are wide open to the Widow's bullshit. I don't understand how her girlfriend went from not trusting the Widow to helping her with MK and Bajie. Her actions helped the Widow hurt and defeat Tilda. Stupid woman. 

Forgot to mention: We were right that the Widow is Flea.

Edited May 15, 2017 by SimoneS

[Stardancer Supreme]

*pours some cranberry juice for Tilda*

Well, Tilda went out like a G.  I would have lost all respect for the Widow if she let her live. The Widow has been killing since she was a child. No way in hell Tilda could take her out.

Lydia is seriously off her game. Quinn plans to kill them all just to keep Sunny from Henry! All this tip toeing around the crazy is making me stabby.  So much for the killer tumor.  Sunny had better chop Quinn into hundreds of pieces when he gets to him.  

[SimoneS]

15 minutes ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Well, Tilda went out like a G.  I would have lost all respect for the Widow if she let her live. The Widow has been killing since she was a child. No way in hell Tilda could take her out

Last season ended with Quinn suffering a fatal wound, yet he lived. So until I hear confirmation that Tilda is dead or see her corpse, I am not grieving for her. 

Edited May 15, 2017 by SimoneS

[Shriekingeel]

Heckuva Mother's Day episode. 

[johntfs]

5 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Well, Tilda went out like a G.  I would have lost all respect for the Widow if she let her live. The Widow has been killing since she was a child. No way in hell Tilda could take her out.

I think The Widow lets Tilda live.  Tilda is the reason she became The Widow, after all.

[Grace19]

I've always seen the widow as a villain, no surprise there. People enjoy her fight scenes and were hoping she would turn out to be more of an antihero than a villain, I prefer her as a straight up villain. That being said, I still don't want her or Quinn dead, I enjoy them on this show, they bring the fun crazy this show needs.

I hope Tilda is not dead, she's one if my favourite characters. The last episode is going to be epic.

[FlowerofCarnage]

Spoiler

One of the show's writers confirmed on Twitter that Tulsa is alive.

Ok, how does Quinn plan to raise Henry if he knows he is dying? 

 So all it takes to convince someone to blow themselves up is a scoop of ice cream? 

As much as I loved Veil slapping the shit out of Quinn when he tried to touch her,  she needs to tread lightly because Quinn has made clear that she and Henry aren't a package deal. 

So did Bajie discover the secret to not aging while at the monestary? 

[johntfs]

1 hour ago, FlowerofCarnage said:

As much as I loved Veil slapping the shit out of Quinn when he tried to touch her,  she needs to tread lightly because Quinn has made clear that she and Henry aren't a package deal. 

In some ways that is treading lightly with Quinn.  Quinn utterly despises what he sees as weakness.  Veil showing strength and fire probably helps keep her in his better graces, at least for now.

[Stardancer Supreme]

Quinn doesn't know he has a tumor. Veil had been showing him doctored x-rays the past few weeks.  In regards to Henry, how on earth was Quinn going to feed a child who is breastfed? That, and the fact that he simply wanted to possess Veil because she was Sunny's woman, is the only reason he didn't just kill her outright.      

[FlowerofCarnage]

1 hour ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Quinn doesn't know he has a tumor. Veil had been showing him doctored x-rays the past few weeks.  In regards to Henry, how on earth was Quinn going to feed a child who is breastfed? That, and the fact that he simply wanted to possess Veil because she was Sunny's woman, is the only reason he didn't just kill her outright.      

Quinn knows he had a tumor and that Veil was lying about the treatments having any effect. He mentioned it last episode during that dinner/marriage proposal from hell scene.  

[that one guy]

Oh shit, son. That was heartbreaking and terrible, and this show just got a whole lot better, which I didn't know it could do. I'm glad it was renewed, because there's no way to sort this mess out in one hour of show time. 

I suspected Tilda would die as soon as I saw the episode title. But how that went down was riveting! The Widow doesn't see herself as a villain, and while Tilda's criticisms of he tactics and willingness to sacrifice innocent people were on target, her words were way too harsh. But even without her powers, Minerva just can't stop herself. She could never control the gift because she's never mastered herself. The suicide bombing rattled her, and everyone (hell, it rattled me, safe at home watching on TV). But reflexively chucking the shuriken at Sunny lost her a powerful ally, and killing her daughter is gonna plunge her down a well of Quinn-style crazy. Both wounds to her cause are self inflicted, and she knows it. In Ep. 2.1 she says in effect she's always been a good fighter but she's a lousy leader, and she was spot on. She does things that are rash and stupid and doubles down. 

I was surprised Bajie didn't tell the whole truth about his history with Minerva, but I shouldn't have been. I thought their reunion was going to be at least momentarily warm and happy, and instead it looks like shit went down when they parted ways. Also, mysteries within mysteries - Minerva showed up at kung fu camp already with the book, the fighting style, the short swords, the butterfly symbol - even the hair, which was adorable [ETA screenshot b/c adorable]. Where did she come from? Not Azra, it's just a word her father taught her. Who was he? When did he disappear? Why? It's like the layers of an onion.

People are suggesting Tilda's not dead. I don't know, maybe? I was shocked when Quinn was alive, and the show is comic booky enough that it might do something like that again, but . . . wouldn't that rob this moment of its dark glory? Also, I liked Tilda, but the interesting thing about her was always the brewing conflict with mama. If they were able to sort things out, I'm not sure what they'd do with her character. If Odessa sticks around instead, that might actually be more interesting - girlfriend getting Tilda killed while trying to protect her from MK is the most tragic part of it all. She was so afraid of him she just didn't process the information that Minerva was the same way until too late.

Also, they aired this on Mother's Day, which is awesome. Reminds me of the time Tyrion Lannister killed his dad on Father's Day.

On a total nerd note, the show is (very very) loosely based on Journey to the West, with Sunny as Sun Wukong (Monkey) and Bajie as Zhu Bajie (Pig). Anybody have thoughts on the other characters? MK is probably Xuanzang the monk, who must go on a quest to recover the lost ancient teachings. We appear to be short 2 leads as yet, Friar Sand and Yulong the Dragon King - although both of them were banished from their former realms for screwing up royally, so either of them could be the Widow, who appears to be a daughter of royalty banished from one home after another for, you know, this pattern of repeatedly murdering everybody accidentally on purpose. But most likely, they introduced one of Xuanzang's companions in each of the first 2 seasons, so Season 3 will see the introduction of a new lead, probably named either Sha or Sandy.

ETA:

Spoiler

the writers have chimed in to clarify that Tilda wasn't killed, just knocked out. That makes me like the episode less, not because I wanted Tilda to be dead, but because that was unclear from what we saw on screen, and it was apparently supposed to be clear. Tagged b/c while that wasn't supposed to be a spoiler, for many people it will be.

Edited May 16, 2017 by that one guy
added file

[Doyounot]

Damn i didnt see the tilda and widow fight coming! I mean i know tilda was waking up to who the widow is but i didnt think the widow would call her out like that about it, at least not right then after she got bombed losing some soldiers, lost sunny and almost got robbed by mk and bajie and needs all the help she can get. I think it was the wrong move but i get her paranoia seeing as a refugee, sunny, mk, and bajie her childhood trainer( who in her pov already abandoned her when she was young) had just betrayed her so the vibe she got from tilda was something she needed to address.

I also liked bajie smiing the whole time as the widow was laying down the law!  It was like he was so proud of how far she has come that he completely forgot that she just caught him coming back in to her life just to steal from her!  Like the scene in anchorman bajie was all "im not even mad im impressed"! Another bajie part that was awesome was when he got through the guards and saw the girls standing he went from suffering to HI so fast!

[jhlipton]

Why is the Widow a "villain"?  She used a woman who trued to kill her (not any kind of ally) to keep everyone else alive.  It's only because we like Veil that we view this as any kind of wrong.  If Tilda can't see the bigger picture then she doesn't deserve to be Regent.  She could always have resigned and gone to being a Cog. So,yeah, take up arms against the woman who protected not just you but countless others because of one woman.  Some people deserve to die, but it ain't the Widow!

I was hoping they'd get someone else to play the younger Bajie.  That was silly.

How does MK manage to make every single one of his scenes dulllllllllllzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....

[johntfs]

For my part I got the vibe that even in the moment she did it, The Widow really didn't want to send Veil to Quinn.  The bit about Veil trying to turn Tilda against her felt more like The Widow trying to feel less awful about doing it by "justifying it."  She also clearly wanted Veil to be able to translate the Azra book not just for the translation but so that she'd have a practical excuse/reason to keep Veil (and Henry) from Quinn.

Edited May 17, 2017 by johntfs

[Iguessnot]

10 hours ago, jhlipton said:

Why is the Widow a "villain"?  She used a woman who trued to kill her (not any kind of ally) to keep everyone else alive.  It's only because we like Veil that we view this as any kind of wrong.  If Tilda can't see the bigger picture then she doesn't deserve to be Regent.  She could always have resigned and gone to being a Cog. So,yeah, take up arms against the woman who protected not just you but countless others because of one woman.  Some people deserve to die, but it ain't the Widow!

I was hoping they'd get someone else to play the younger Bajie.  That was silly.

How does MK manage to make every single one of his scenes dulllllllllllzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....

I've found Tilda to be rather hypocritical when she and the Widow are bloodthirsty on par with the rest of the barons. I'm not discounting their nobler goals of justice in the society, or their need to be violently aggressive given their society, but Tilda's Veil sentiment is overly silly. Seems to be manipulative of the audience. 

[jhlipton]

21 minutes ago, Iguessnot said:

Seems to be manipulative of the audience. 

I very much agree.  Sonny is our view-point character and since Veil is "his woman damsel" (far more than she is her own person), anything bad that happens to her is bad to us.  I don't buy it.

[johntfs]

I do buy it in this case.  Is there any woman on the show you'd like to see in the position of "Quinn's rape wife?"  I can recognize The Widow's situation and her reasons for doing what she did, but I don't have to be approving that she did it.  And I can still feel really bad for Veil being in the situation that she's in.

[Iguessnot]

I feel for Veil because she hates the Baron for what he did to her parents and also because Sonny is just around the corner and she's in this predicament as an unwilling bride.  I don't understand that question any more than asking is there any man on the show you'd like to see in the position of Quinn's stabbed son.

I can't even remember the circumstances that led to Veil giving the poison to Tilda to kill the Widow. But if Tilda didn't offer up a "she's a female" argument then, it's sure a weak defense now.

[FlowerofCarnage]

15 hours ago, Iguessnot said:

I've found Tilda to be rather hypocritical when she and the Widow are bloodthirsty on par with the rest of the barons. I'm not discounting their nobler goals of justice in the society, or their need to be violently aggressive given their society, but Tilda's Veil sentiment is overly silly. Seems to be manipulative of the audience. 

 

It's not silly when the Widow says she is fighting for a world where "girls aren't dragged into closets and have their innocence stolen from them" but then sends a woman back to her abuser and would-be rapist. Then to add insult to injury, says she did it partially in order to punish said woman. 

[Rambler]

Haha The actress playing little flea looks more impressive in her fight scenes than the Iron Fist dude. Of course that's not saying much, but still...

[Iguessnot]

Sorry, I'm not Olivia Benson. I'm not going to revel in the weekly bloodshed every week but lose my stuff because of Veil's predicament. As far as I know, males and females suffer under the cog system. I'm sure threats of sodomy to Sonny's, MK or any male cogs would receive a similar reaction.

I just don't have a built in reaction to the Widow. Fighting for the cause of women doesn't make her an angel nor does turning over Veil make her a devil. She's an intriguing character who I've grown to like this season. Tilda didn't kill MK on sight and relates normally to Waldo and Sunny so I would expect her to be more nuanced in her opposition to her mother.

[johntfs]

16 hours ago, Iguessnot said:

 I don't understand that question any more than asking is there any man on the show you'd like to see in the position of Quinn's stabbed son.

My question was in response to this:

21 hours ago, jhlipton said:

Sonny is our view-point character and since Veil is "his woman damsel" (far more than she is her own person), anything bad that happens to her is bad to us.  I don't buy it.

My point was that whoever Veil was to Sunny and whatever choices she'd made that lead to her being in that predicament, I still feel bad for her being in that predicament.

[jhlipton]

I think we're at the point where YMMV.

[neptunewaves]

I love how the "heroes" seems to have adopted this white and black mentality overnight like they haven't spent their entire lives living in a post-apocalyptic dystopia. Okay, say The Widow isn't the Mahatma Gandhi of feminism and happens to have her best interests in mind. So? So does everyone else in this show. The fact she is willing to break a few eggs to make an omelet does not turn her into a total monster like Quinn. If anything, Tilda readiness to turn on her (like she's been meaning to since the past season, even after The Widow risks her life to save her) so easily says more about her than about Minerva. 

It was pretty clear to me The Widow has just knocked Tilda out. See her expression after the fight - that's not the look of someone who just had offed their loved one (and for all of Tilda's whininess about Minerva's cold heart, it's obvious to me The Widow truly cares more about her than Tilda does).

[johntfs]

3 hours ago, neptunewaves said:

It was pretty clear to me The Widow has just knocked Tilda out. See her expression after the fight - that's not the look of someone who just had offed their loved one (and for all of Tilda's whininess about Minerva's cold heart, it's obvious to me The Widow truly cares more about her than Tilda does).

I agree with that.  Given the jail scene, "Mom" was clearly putting Tilda in "Time out."

[jhlipton]

On 5/24/2017 at 10:54 PM, neptunewaves said:

I love how the "heroes" seems to have adopted this white and black mentality overnight like they haven't spent their entire lives living in a post-apocalyptic dystopia.

+1000 to this entire post!

[thuganomics85]

Felt behind on a lot of my shows, so I'm playing catch-up now.  Not surprised that Baije's "Flea" ends up being Minerva/The Widow, but that was still a nice reveal.  The actress playing the young Minerva in the flashbacks looked the part, although I did laugh at the robes they put on Baije to try and make him look not as fat as Nick Frost is.

The Widow and Tilda finally come to blows, and The Widow comes out ahead... for now.  Eh, I don't know.  Yeah, she has done bad things and she certainly isn't a good person, but I still don't think she is a full-fledge villain like Quinn.  I still think she truly is trying to help the cogs and other people in need, but is someone who believes that making sacrifices (a.k.a. giving Veil back to Quinn) is worth it, if it means more could be saved.  Sure, it might be a faulty logic and I can certainly understand why this will likely make her an enemy of Sunny's in the long run, but I don't find her to be evil on the scale that Quinn has become.

Lydia sees that Quinn is planning on just blowing up all the tunnels, so she is going to hatch some kind of plan for her and Veil to escape.  Hmm...

Still find everyone's obsession with M.K. to be the weak link.  What a dud of a character.

[Netfoot]

2 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

I still think she truly is trying to help the cogs and other people in need, but is someone who believes that making sacrifices (a.k.a. giving Veil back to Quinn) is worth it, if it means more could be saved.

She may be helping cogs, but I don't see her actions as altruistic.  I don't see the Widow as making any personal sacrifice at all.  

[jhlipton]

On 5/27/2017 at 6:43 PM, Netfoot said:

She may be helping cogs, but I don't see her actions as altruistic.  I don't see the Widow as making any personal sacrifice at all.  

You mean other than putting her life on the line an the Conclave? Even when confronted by Chou, she refused to give up the Cogs currently under her protection.  If it weren't for Quinn (not Tilda) showing up, she would be banished or dead.  (No, Tilda, it was the right move to bring Waldo instead of you.  If she had listened to him, she might have swayed one or two of the Barons. and she was holding her own in the free-for-all that happened after the vote.)