S04.E04: Keepers of the House

[ElectricBoogaloo]

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Desperate to save her daughter, Hayley turns to Marcel for help uncovering information about the mysterious force that has set its sights on the children of New Orleans. While Klaus remains behind with Hope, Elijah and a reluctant Vincent join the hunt, which puts them on a dangerous collision course with an unlikely new threat. Finally, Freya and Keelin must put aside their differences as they embark on a journey that may alter the power dynamic in New Orleans forever.

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[SimoneS]

Hayley cracked me up telling Elijah that they have to stop putting their family first and that they have to do better. "Family first" is the rally cry for all the evil that Mikaelsons do and their fans praise them unreservedly for this. Why Hayley does suddenly expect any of them to grow a conscience? No doubt Hope will be as immoral and ruthless as all of them.

I have to say Marcel is looking damn good this season. He is even more handsome. Who knew that was possible?

[Artsda]

1 hour ago, SimoneS said:

Why Hayley does suddenly expect any of them to grow a conscience? No doubt Hope will be as immoral and ruthless as all of them.

Also since when does she care herself to put others first before the Mikaelsons family? Wasn't she putting them first ahead of her own pack and husband? 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Inside the episode:

Edited April 8, 2017 by ElectricBoogaloo

[ElectricBoogaloo]

DAMN IT, SHOW, why did you bring back Detective Logan just to kill him off? But thank you for showing us his arms before he went off into that sweet night, I guess. Poor Vincent. Every time he makes a friend, they die (usually in connection with the Mikaelsons). I guess he's back to having no friends. Hopefully that little kid and his mom survive the season but the odds aren't good.

Why didn't Elijah, Klaus, or Marcel seem the least bit concerned that a measly human had some sort of magical necklace capable of incapacitating vampires? Like none of them said, "Hey, Vincent, do you know what that is?" It seemed like one of Bonnie's vampire instant headaches in medallion form but is it capable of other things too?

Interesting that Marcel lied to Vincent about seeing the blue light (heh, I kept thinking of the old Kmart blue light special every time someone mentioned the blue light). So now Hope is psychic on top of being a witch? I hope she doesn't become as annoyingly omniscient as Diana on Grimm.

Although I'm glad Hayley (or hell, ANYONE) finally told the Mikaelsons that they need to stop being so eager to sacrifice others in order to save themselves (Katherine: "Better you than I"), but I was also laughing because girl, please. Murdering people for no reason is not even a hobby to the Mikaelsons. It's like flicking dust off their sleeves - something so minor that it barely registers when they do it.

I'm not familiar with hollows except from Miss Peregrine's Home for Peculiar Children. Are hollows part of the supernatural folklore (like vampires and werewolves) and I'm just not aware of them?

Edited April 8, 2017 by ElectricBoogaloo

[luckyroll3]

18 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I have to say Marcel is looking damn good this season. He is even more handsome. Who knew that was possible?

I second this!  I was so pissed when he was all shirtless and that chick stepped right in front of him blocking what would have been a glorious view. 

17 hours ago, Artsda said:

Also since when does she care herself to put others first before the Mikaelsons family? Wasn't she putting them first ahead of her own pack and husband? 

 

5 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Although I'm glad Hayley (or hell, ANYONE) finally told the Mikaelsons that they need to stop being so eager to sacrifice others in order to save themselves (Katherine: "Better you than I"), but I was also laughing because girl, please. Murdering people for no reason is not even a hobby to the Mikaelsons. It's like flicking dust off their sleeves - something so minor that it barely registers when they do it.

Let's also not forget that Haley sacrificed all the werewolves that were in the pack with her and Tyler, people that considered her a trustworthy friend, because of some deal to learn more about her family.  I think back to that every time they try to make her the moral center of the Michaelsons.

[Moxie Cat]

Every time they mentioned "the Hollow" I had Charmed flashbacks. Wasn't that the immense source of power that erupted from the Halliwell basement? I don't know if it has any larger historic supernatural lore but if not, I wish they had picked a more-unfamiliar genre title.

BAMF Elijah will never not be awesome.

[Sam Marie]

I honestly don't know what to make of Hayley. When she told Hope to go she her daddy, I finally felt like this - the Mikaelsons from Freya to Hayley and Hope might actually work as a family, and when she was accused of abandoning 'her kind' for the Original family as much I wanted her to be flat out that they are my family, I was pleased that she held her ground not apologizing for putting them first. But then with Elijah...

Firstly the Mikaelsons have an endless number of morally questionable and flatly reprehensible tendencies but she decides its "family first/family above all" that has to go?! I'm not even sure what Hayley means when she says she doesn't want them putting their family before others, how extreme are we taking; does she think they should have sparred Will and the others influenced even if it endangered her daughter? What disturbed me more than anything (blue lights included) was the implication that Hayley no longer felt her family was worth fighting for or rather that she wouldn't kill to save her daughter.  Overall I call bull on Hayley's part, I think (pray) that the predicament including the sacrifice of a child linked to the same ritual as Hope seriously unnerved her. And beyond that Hayley doesn't know family in the same way as the Mikaelson siblings, that's not a reference to blood or her wolf loyalties or implying that she's any less a member of that family but her life hasn't allowed her to develop the same bonds they have. Hayley knows what it's like to be a parent arguably more than any of them but while she's madly in love with Elijah, values Klaus as Hope's father and loves the rest as family, the Mikaelsons were her first glimpse of having a family and at 30ish there's no way for her to comprehend the bond between siblings that lived 'always & forever' for a 1000 years especially as the most immortal creatures. Jackson seemed to be the first truly significant death to Hayley, beginning to understand why Elijah could value the dead over the living, and she was friends with Cami who was also murdered meaning she knows a life with loss but not immortality. In a few centuries when Hayley's seen the world die around her - wolves, witches and vampires maybe (freaking hopefully) she'll begin to understand the value of keeping her immortal family alive. I think immortality is an underestimated factor in their lives and that living so many lifetimes, in so  many cultures where their family is the only thing that remains (they spent 1000 years without anyone dying) has a huge affect on the siblings. As well as the fact they were born into the 10th century...

It has to be said,  Elijah admitted he was 'willing' to kill a person (albeit a child) in order to directly save his brother (possibly his niece and 3 others) Hayley showed up in Mystic Falls befriended and betrayed 12 hybrids to their death, framed Tyler resulting in Carol's death all for the promise of information. Pot, Kettle oh so black. What exactly gives Hayley the right to declare the family needs to change it's #1 motto for the past millennium? She's part of the family and telling Freya not to keep prisoners in the barn because of Hope totally her right, voicing an opinion on the topic sure but declaring the family needs to break a 1000 year vow of loyalty...

I've liked Hayley this season and after 3 seasons of disdain and semi frequent homicidal urges it's been such a nice change that I'm afraid I've grown prematurely accustomed to.

Edited April 8, 2017 by Sam Marie

[CheezyXpressed]

I feel like becoming a mother is what made Hayley think of the children more. She has killed people before and put her 'family' (or at least the idea of having a family) before others, which resulted in their deaths. But I think she's starting to see the world differently after being a parent for these past five years. I don't know if it's PT's acting, but Hayley has been coming off as more mature compared to before. And Kol understood this too, which is why he left as well.

She hasn't been alive as long as the Originals and definitely hasn't had the same family experiences, but I think she's trying the best to set an example for Hope and not be as black and white when it comes to others. Plus, she might feel guilty that the ancestors were so intent on killing Davina after the witches died. Hayley killed them to be with Hope, but it also resulted in the death of a friend.

I dunno, I feel like Elijah is a lot more ruthless and willing to kill anyone, even children, for the sake of his family, which is something that Klaus is conflicted by depending on the person. Hopefully the show comes full circle with Elijah's arc about his inner demons.

[tangerinepill]

I was actually really happy Haley said what she said to Elijah because I've found it harder and harder to root for the Mikaelson's. They use the excuse of their "bonds" to do all kinds of terrible, reprehensible things and show very little remorse, if any, for the people whose lives they destroy. It becomes a bit boring to watch a show where there's no character growth. If anything, Elijah seems to have regressed and become less human. And I used to like Freya, but her behavior the last couple episodes was straight up disgusting. Kidnapping and torturing another person for any reason is not ok. It was one thing when it was a matter of life and death, but then to keep the person because she might need her in the future? When you're a witch and can do a locator spell? And now her and the werewolf will probably get together, which I would have loved to see had the story unfolded in a different way, but now I feel like I'm basically saying "yay for Stockholm syndrome" if I like them together. I get that I'm watching a show about original vampires who feed on people, but I feel like Klaus used to be the only one who was 90% monster; the others at least tried to be decent. These days I find myself rooting for the good guys: Marcel and Vincent. And Josh.... always Josh. More Josh!

[mac123x]

On 4/8/2017 at 6:37 PM, Moxie Cat said:

Every time they mentioned "the Hollow" I had Charmed flashbacks. Wasn't that the immense source of power that erupted from the Halliwell basement?

LOL, I kept thinking the same thing.  On Charmed, The Hallow was a being (manifested as a swarm of insects basically) that consumed magic.  It was so powerful and dangerous that Evil and Good teamed up to contain it.  I wondered if we're dealing with something similar (but better written).

4 hours ago, tangerinepill said:

And Josh.... always Josh. More Josh!

And Josh's new boyfriend!  Preferably both of them dancing at a burlesque show.

[Sam Marie]

I don't know how to take what Hayley said, I'm not sure exactly what she meant by it and frankly I'm not sure she's entirely clear on what she wants. Like where does she draw the line? Obviously Klaus poisoning Tim and Davina because the teen witch had power that might be able to harm the family, if she were inclined to too far and it always was. I'm assuming enemies directly attacking them is fair game, but on a battlefield does Hayley want them to protect strangers when part of their family is in trouble? Plus the complexity of compulsion/mind control, Kinney was super charged with that amulet and took Elijah down with ease and attempting to break his connection to the Hollow failed while Elijah, Klaus nor Marcel could likely be killed in this situation Hayley's no more immortal than any hybrid slaughtered in Mystic Falls. If in danger would she want them to stand down because of the unknown degree of mind control Kinney was under; what if Hope was there attacked and vulnerable like the other kids?

Part of her discomfort might be the fact she and Hope spent 5 years living according to her choices alone, aside from Mary's (apparently) unwelcome input Hayley made unilateral decisions without hearing much less considering anothers input their certainly wasn't a situation where someone had the ability to go over her. Not calling her a control freak, or putting this down to control but I would imagine there's some adjustment period.
But her desires don't add up to me; Hope's been kept safe for the past 5 years because Hayley's covered their tracks ruthlessly & Marcel guarded Klaus' blood. She's tired of acting like a Mikaelson not having the heart for it and that's understandable but she doesn't want anyone else to protect her/their family with the same resolve, considering they're prominent figures in a supernatural world that's survival of the fittest....

Back with Dahlia I'm 100% certain Hayley would have done anything necessary to protect Hope including cooperating with Klaus' plan the issue being that Hayley would never accept such harsh measures were the best or only option until it was too late. Similarly Hayley seemed to believe that they could run with the pack and if by some set of miracles they managed to outlast Dahlia and evade Klaus (the dagger not removed) that she could settle down with Jackson and Hope and live a peaceful and safe life. But Hope was labeled a Mikaelson in utero and it's now accepted she's inherited all their enemies and none of their protection meaning disaster. I suppose I feel that Hayley is still trying to give Hope the life and family she might have experienced or desired growing up, which isn't a bad thing at all but it's unrealistic for the tribrid daughter of Klaus Mikaelson and last hybrid. In her letter Hayley promised her daughter "a safe home, someone to tell you that they love you every single day, and someone to fight for you, no matter what. In other words, a family." I think she's done an admirable job I'm not sure she knows how to continue doing so when she's not the only influence and they've been thrust back into the supernatural spotlight.

4 hours ago, tangerinepill said:

I was actually really happy Haley said what she said to Elijah because I've found it harder and harder to root for the Mikaelson's. They use the excuse of their "bonds" to do all kinds of terrible, reprehensible things and show very little remorse, if any, for the people whose lives they destroy. It becomes a bit boring to watch a show where there's no character growth. If anything, Elijah seems to have regressed and become less human. And I used to like Freya, but her behavior the last couple episodes was straight up disgusting. Kidnapping and torturing another person for any reason is not ok. It was one thing when it was a matter of life and death, but then to keep the person because she might need her in the future? When you're a witch and can do a locator spell? And now her and the werewolf will probably get together, which I would have loved to see had the story unfolded in a different way, but now I feel like I'm basically saying "yay for Stockholm syndrome" if I like them together. I get that I'm watching a show about original vampires who feed on people, but I feel like Klaus used to be the only one who was 90% monster; the others at least tried to be decent. These days I find myself rooting for the good guys: Marcel and Vincent. And Josh.... always Josh. More Josh!

I thought Klaus was spot on when he said Elijah was every bit the monster, if not more than he was. Elijah's manners, charm and innate kindness don't negate the fact he would slaughter the world without hesitation to save his family, dealing with the consequential horrors, regret and fallout afterwards.

I'd say this has been Freya's character growth, she's steadily been loyal to & supporting her siblings and very little else. This season we've seen the monster that Dahlia and her desperation for her family created inside of her and ep4 showed that Freya recognizes her actions as wrong, extreme and largely unnecessary and by altering the ring Freya's shown she's capable of acknowledging her mistakes to those she's wronged.
I truly believe the Mikaelsons get such judgement for their vow of 'always & forever' because they've been committed to it for a thousand years as some of the most powerful beings. There's a tragic and ugly side to ultimate family loyalty and the Original family has caused an incredible amount of devastation with it but fundamentally they're no different from the others. It's basic nature to protect your own or those you love above others and on a basic level it just seems natural and common sense. Your "good guys" Marcel is exactly the same he brought multiple threats such as Papa Tunde and to the city particularly for Klaus so he could be with Rebekah, he called Mikael likely to kill the Original brothers and all the city's vampires (vampire hunter) again for a relationship with Rebekah, Marcel slaughtered witches for months across the 9 covens to protect Davina. To get his revenge on Elijah he was willing to eradicate 1/3 of the vampire population.
After returning to magic Vincent protected his own meaning the witches above all. He confronted Freya after she sabotaged Davina's chance to return reasoning that Rebekah, the vampires sired to her and Klaus (possibly Hayley?) weren't worth it because they were vampires and that Freya somehow betrayed her own. 
Even Davina, she would put Marcel, Kol and Josh before anyone else without hesitation. During her time trying to kill Klaus she only looked for a way to free Marcel and Josh, she had no problem killing hundreds-thousands of vampires she personally care for.

Yet the Mikaelsons are a family, an incredibly large one among vampires and the most powerful. They're a handful of people who have maintained the same ultimate loyalties toward each other and 1000 years of killing for their family adds up.

More Josh, always more Josh!

[Gwen-Stacys]

4 hours ago, tangerinepill said:

 These days I find myself rooting for the good guys: Marcel and Vincent. And Josh.... always Josh. More Josh!

I think the point is that there are no good guys (outside of Josh and maybe Vincent) and if there are (again, Josh and Vincent) then Marcel definitely isn't one of them. The Hollow is here because of Marcel...twice. First, Vincent summoned it because of him then the wolves, Kinney, etc were seduced by it, again, because of him. Marcel held/holds public executions of people he thinks are acting outside of his rule. He rules using intimidation and fear the same way his father, Klaus, does. He just thinks that he's better because he has his no kids rule. But even in this episode we see that no one (outside of vampires) sees Marcel as good people or even a "ruler" worthy of their trust. The wolves hate him and so do the witches (they were moved by Hayley to help). Only Vincent seems on friendly terms with him and that might even be terse at best.

 

Edit to add: I think the Hollow is part of Supernatural Folklore. I remember reading about it in an Anita Blake book.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Gwen-Stacys

[TrininisaScorp]

On 4/7/2017 at 9:07 PM, SimoneS said:

I have to say Marcel is looking damn good this season. He is even more handsome. Who knew that was possible?

Preach.  Honestly, the level of insanely good looking on this show is just stupid.  But, Marcel doesn't even look real (or that dude just isn't hanging out where I live...sadly).  He's like a CAD drawing of the finest dude you could come up with.  And, thank God for that.

I too root for Vincent and Marcel.  The Mikaelsons, even at their best, make it hard for me to root for them.  Like, is that lady werewolf who Freya is basically holding captive suppose to be a budding friendship? B/c that's f'ed up.  

The "family first and everyone else can die" thing is a major foundational theme on this show.   It is how these guys have chosen to live their weird lives for hundreds of years.  Haley wants to change that now?!  Girl, please. 

I'm still not sure I'm onboard with 7 year old walking, talking, trouble causing Hope, nor am I convinced I'm down for this Hollow thing.  I'm willing to give it a go b/c I do like these characters and enjoy the character moments (like Marcel and Klaus having some real talk on this episode).  I'm hoping as the Hollow storyline unfolds, it becomes a bit more interesting.  

[Cattitude]

I'm in the minority as liking Haley and Elijah but I was like "girl please" when she said what she did to Elijah. I mean the whole need to kill one of those kids was to save Hope I'm sorry but if it came down to killing one of those kids or Hope would have died Haley would have done the SAME damn thing! Elijah was at the heart of it trying to save Hope, he would too do the same for his brother but reality is Hope is her child and a Mikaelson. She can't expect any of them to put another person above Hope and to them each other is just as important as Hope. Elijah is just the Damon of the Mikaelson family he will do anything or kill anyone to save who he loves which includes Haley herself. So she can just stuff it.

I have never liked Freya but I gotta say I do like her with Keelin. She seems to be giving her some heart and growth.

Poor Vincent can't ever catch a break. Farewell my Det Kinney.

[Sam Marie]

13 hours ago, TrininisaScorp said:

I too root for Vincent and Marcel.  The Mikaelsons, even at their best, make it hard for me to root for them.  Like, is that lady werewolf who Freya is basically holding captive suppose to be a budding friendship? B/c that's f'ed up.  

The "family first and everyone else can die" thing is a major foundational theme on this show.   It is how these guys have chosen to live their weird lives for hundreds of years.  Haley wants to change that now?!  Girl, please. 

 

Hayley & Elijah might have had the healthiest start to their relationship and that's pretty telling. Klaus liberally compelled Cami; her thoughts, her actions and memories, and Kol straight up assumed an entirely different identity (name/age/species/status in the Mikaelson family) when he met Davina. They're damaged people, even their genuine relationships tend to begin horrifically, considering how well Klaus & Hayley seem to be doing I wouldn't rule anything out.

12 hours ago, doram said:

Actually, the argument Vincent gave Freya was that she had murdered a child, and a fundamentally good person, to preserve the lives of people who've lived for millennia. At that point in time, only Klaus was under direct threat from Lucien, and the sire lines were broken. So Freya basically sacrificed a teenage girl so her 1,000 year old Psychopath brother could live to fight another enemy. It didn't much have to do with Davina being a witch. Vincent never even brings that up.

Lucien was backed by the Ancestors who wanted all the Originals as well as Davina (probably Freya & Vincent) dead. Lucien, personally may have been after Klaus first and foremost but he had a larger agenda/hit list. Killing Cami failed to bring Klaus into the open so he decided to kill Rebekah who was daggered, therefore defenseless & her sire line was still active. Klaus & Hayley went to move Rebekah before Lucien could find her, when Hayley didn't pick up her phone Elijah & Freya reasonably assumed Lucien found Rebekah & all 3 of them were in immediate danger. (The fact Hayley thought it was an appropriate moment to ignore Elijah's call out of relationship angst still blows my mind)
Vincent accuses Freya of "destroying somebody good" for those who've lived multiple lifetimes so in that there's no pro witch agenda (though where Hayley not that much older than Davina falls in Vincent's mind is a curiosity) it's when Freya tries to make him understand she just wanted to protect her family and he tells her she's just as much of a bloodsucker as the others paired with his open dislike for vampires that lead me to that conclusion.

As for Davina being a child; I never much liked Davina her attitude or her actions but I loved her when she was in the circle of protection. She owns up to her actions, takes responsibility for her choices and flatly tells Marcel she grew up. At 19(?) she's undeniably young but considering the life she's lead post-Harvest I think it's hard to classify her as a child. It seems a bit of an insult, either the Ancestors wanted her dead because Marcel manipulated her or she made an enemy out of the Ancestors because she made her own choices, was loyal to those she found worthy, loved Kol Mikaelson more than anything and made her own mistakes. And Davina seemed to think the way she chose to live her life and the people she chose to be in it was worth it, even as a spirit in a circle knowing having seen what 'judgement' was waiting for her - Personally I can't see that mindset as one of a child.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Sam Marie

[Sam Marie]

21 minutes ago, doram said:

I don't think it's subjective? I mean, Davina was a child by age, and a child by the number of years she's lived compared to the Michaelsons who were all immortal. Just because Davina was forced to grow up faster than her age because of her circumstances while Klaus and company kept acting like over-indulged brats, doesn't reverse who was older and who had lived longer.

I'd say age is pretty subjective on the show. Technically I believe Davina was 19 or even 20 when she died making her a legal adult and 19 is pretty subjective no matter what. I'm not denying she was way too young to die and obviously lived less than Klaus or Rebekah, but I have some issue when like in this episode where Vincent equates the young witch kids to Davina. Adam is the innocent I see when I think of a child not Davina Claire who fought the Originals, resurrected Mikael, fell in love with Kol Mikaelson or knowingly joined the Strix to save someone she loved. Davina wasn't the epitome of maturity nor had she a full life, but she wasn't the child sacrifice from the Harvest every action and choice she believed in (and some mistakes) brought her the ancestral plane with Kara trying to eradicate her soul. Davina helped Marcel find and kill the witches, chose Marcel & Josh as her family, she separated from the coven, fell in love with a Mikaelson, had Hayley kill those witches, joined the Strix and brought back to life the Original Kol. Ultimately those actions caused her death & the ire of the Ancestors, I don't think she deserved her fate but by the judgement of the Ancestors of her people she earned it, which makes me hold them responsible in the end.

The issue is everyone is an infant compared to the Mikaelsons but they only accept that if they're arguing the Mikaelsons advanced age makes them less worthy to live than others. Marcel spends so much time complaining he isn't  treated as one of their equals but the fact they have 800 years on him is never addressed. They've lived 1000 years giving them the ultimate life experience, advanced knowledge, immense power and have lived through incredible loss, but no one likes to acknowledge that part of their multiple lifetimes only the bloodshed and what they are owed. When it comes to breaking the line the other vampires argue that they were created and abandoned, left to fend for themselves and in return they're owed the security of not being tied to the Mikaelsons. Yet that implies that they wanted the Mikaelsons to have, or thought they earned some official position of power and rule over them, when they've been enjoying their apparent freedom and only wish to ensure it.

 

1 hour ago, doram said:

While the "lives" of Rebecca's sires were on the line, the show has never cared about them, or made me as an audience care about the collateral damage. 2 entire seasons of TVD were devoted to Team Good determining which of the Originals were safe to kill, and eventually ended with deliberately enacting the massacre/genocide of Kol Michaelson's sire line and this action was painted as heroic/gutsy. 

Half of this season was about "resisting" attempts to protect the Originals in order to preserve their sire lines and at no time, was the argument (that perhaps the Originals should worry about the collateral damage that would occur at their deaths) presented as something rational or even worth considering. 

Anyway, all that is moot because it's not as if Freya murdered Davina because she weighed her life against the lives of all the vampires that would die if Rebecca and Elijah did. She was only looking out for her own. 

I haven't recovered from TVD where Jeremy was adamant about not killing innocents but blindly eradicating Kol's sire line was perfectly okay. I'm actually quite pleased none of the Mikaelsons brought up Rebekah's line as some type of excuse or reasoning because it would be complete crap. Vincent's slated as one of the good guys, particularly one tired of the 'always & forever' protecting your own and damn the consequences and everyone else and I found it slightly disappointing that he didn't recognize/acknowledge there were more lives at stake & it aided my belief of Vincent's disregard of the species. After Marcel's celebration of breaking free of Klaus (despite trying to stop it) I wish he had been more aware or remotely concerned about Rebekah and Elijah's sire lines still being intact, not everyone Elijah ever sired joined the Strix.

 

1 hour ago, doram said:

Vincent didn't have a problem with Josh or Cami. I think it was pretty clear that his "just as much a bloodsucker as the rest of them" wasn't some kind of fantastical racism but a clear attack at Freya's family who had, frankly, earned that insult and worse. 

When he gives Marcel the serum Vincent says he doesn't like vampires, but he has enough respect for Marcel running out the Originals with Mikael that he believes he can do it again. I don't think it was fanatical racism when he called Freya a bloodsucker but as a witch who sacrificed an innocent to save her family Vincent could have insulted Freya in a multitude of ways and I feel calling her a bloodsucker was a reference to how he saw vampires as a whole. Destroyers of the innocent.

1 hour ago, doram said:

I thought Hayley was outside the Michaelsons's sire lines? (Not that I care about Hayley Marshall. The show might like us to forget how she betrayed and murdered twelve people that trusted her, but that doesn't mean I have to.)

Hayley's un sired, apparently the baby's blood didn't tie her to Klaus, but Lucien still had his hand around her heart ready to kill her when Elijah & Freya showed up. (I'm still pissed that Tyler came to NOLA and somehow it was never mentioned Klaus killed his mother for something Hayley did, Elijah's chastising Klaus for putting Hayley in danger and just... aside from anything else I would have loved s1 Elijah's reaction)

[Gwen-Stacys]

15 hours ago, doram said:

Actually, the argument Vincent gave Freya was that she had murdered a child, and a fundamentally good person, to preserve the lives of people who've lived for millennia. At that point in time, only Klaus was under direct threat from Lucien, and the sire lines were broken. So Freya basically sacrificed a teenage girl so her 1,000 year old Psychopath brother could live to fight another enemy. It didn't much have to do with Davina being a witch. Vincent never even brings that up.

The only sire line broken is Klaus'. Rebekah's and Elijah's are still connected to them. And, technically, Freya didn't murder anyone. The ancestors killed Davina the first two times and Davina "killed herself" the third time. Freya and Elijah basically left her at there mercy. What they did was akin to Hayley setting up those 12 hybrids to be sacrificed on TVD: a very f*cked up thing to do, even if you can technically say that you didn't kill anyone.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Gwen-Stacys

[Sam Marie]

1 hour ago, doram said:

That teenagers shouldn't  die so someone who has lived for millennia, can live for a few more dozen lifetimes, shouldn't be debatable. It doesn't even matter if the Originals have lived saintly, altruistic lives. 

Age is a strange value especially with immortality. I may not have liked them but Davina was essentially a good person and Hayley did some incredibly shady things, some at Davina's demand but grouping her with the Originals isn't right. Hayley's 4-5 years older, officially an adult and supposedly immortal so was her death acceptable for Davina to be brought back? Hayley protested Davina was just a kid, but she had her own child about to be orphaned to get back to. Where is the line drawn? Isn't the reasoning behind valuing the young lives over the old was not just the assumed innocence and their lack of life experience but the time they have ahead of them, considering the lives of wolves, witches and humans are meant to be short while the vampires are immortal it gets a bit convoluted, because the old aren't dying, they're not reaching the end of their lives, arguably they're not necessarily considered middle aged. To someone use to immortal lifespans it might be valid to look at it in reverse the extension of a few decades or the loss of centuries.

That got a bit too philosophical... I don't know, I think it's really a bit pointless to bring age into that equation. Morally Davina deserved to live more than Klaus or Rebekah but I think Klaus & Rebekah deserved Freya & Elijah to choose them. They saved their family, that's basically what they do, they hesitated because it was someone Kol & Marcel loved.  Vincent couldn't have saved Davina without Freya who needed Elijah, they could have saved her, they should have and even technically speaking I think they did their part, so while they sacrificed Davina's soul they were also arguably the only reason she had a chance at all - and I'm not remotely sure if that makes it more or less morally reprehensible.  Regardless of the origin or fault Davina's spent the past several years as a rather formidable enemy to their family or at the very least Klaus. When breaking the sire line Davina was fully prepared to kill both Klaus and Elijah regardless of Marcel's pleas and knowing Kol loved his brothers so part of me has a hard time getting truly outraged that a week or so later Elijah wasn't willing to sacrifice his brother, sister and Hayley for her.

 

1 hour ago, doram said:

IMO that's still holding Vincent to an impossible (and convenient) standard that none of the other 'good guys' in this show has been held. That the show has pretty much gone out of its way not to establish.

I feel like Vincent's has this untouchable reputation starting from when we see him turn on Eva, except for Cami telling him off for passing the Regency to Davina no one really takes issue with him. Davina was rejected by the witches because of her past with Marcel but Vincent's welcomed by the witches after helping cut off the Ancestors and making peace with a far more dangerous Marcel. He released the Hollow and while I'm not sure what that means past blue lights and human sacrifice, I'm pretty sure anyone else would be crucified for it. If Vincent's going to have this unprecedented reputation for doing right by the masses, I figure I might as well add my own expectation. For the record, I never thought Vincent recognizing the sire line would have changed anything, I think part of me just wanted someone to acknowledge it after a season focused on little else and Vincent seemed most appropriate - due to process of elimination.

[Sam Marie]

1 hour ago, doram said:

The problem with this logic is that Technically, the Originals (and vampires in general) are not immortal. They can potentially live forever... but they can die, they can be killed. They still need blood to sustain, and they can be vulnerable to weaknesses like stake and sunlight. 

They are not gods. They are finite creatures with really good health insurance policies, and an amazing diet plan.

The only reason why Klaus and co lived a thousand years not Cami's ten days (or weeks) was because of the steps they took to preserve their lives. 

Or, to make myself clearer, no living thing on this show is owed eternal life. They have no claim to it. To quote Davina herself when she stripped Klaus of his sire line - "they've had their time". Maybe it's one of those things that are so fundamental to me that it's impossible to explain, but imo there is no scale that would balance out an Original's right to live against Davina's.

Re: Vincent. I've never really got the vibe he had an untouchable reputation as much as he was supposed to be some sort of audience surrogate? Be that as it may, I think the show's too far gone at this point in time for me to realistically expect it to cater to the "sire lines are innocents", and I think it is at the very least unfair to suddenly demand that from Vincent. 

The Originals are so far from human I can't really judge them by human standards. It wasn't that Davina deserved to live less than an Original but that when Rebekah or Klaus's life is in danger they deserve their family to pick them & here Elijah and Freya were the ones who got to choose who lived or died. There's always been a part of me that thought, objectively, Davina would understand, because she would have done the exact same thing. She saw Marcel, Josh, Kol and perhaps Cami as hers and she was fiercely protective of them, personally I never saw any limits to what she would do to protect them. Kol's an Original and Marcel's a few centuries past his natural death but if she had to choose between Kol and Van (similar animosity) I'm convinced she'd save Kol. She would have left infant Hope vulnerable to Dahlia to resurrect Kol.

Perhaps no living thing is owed eternal life but vampires are given the possibility if not expectation. The human life expectancy is 79 years but they aren't owed that either, they just have more vulnerabilities to defend themselves from. Klaus and co having lived so long due to the steps they took to preserve their lives, that they sacrificed everything and everyone for their family to persevere is IMO saying that they earned their immortality, not in a moral sense by any means but their actions, depravity & family loyalty gave them 1000+ years of life. It's not remotely fair that the far less destructive life choices Davina made got her killed at 19/20 but her actual death was due to the Ancestors hatred of her and her actions and nothing to do with the actions of the Originals; Kol was only their pawn.

I do put a lot of significance in the fact Davina was already dead. Under normal circumstances it doesn't seem particularly difficult to resurrect a witch in NOLA does that mean there's a responsibility to bring back anyone deemed innocent or too young, and should vampires die for it? Then there's the possibility that had they not stopped Lucien and saved Davina, the Ancestors were likely to have her killed again and with Lucien killing off the Originals there wouldn't be a second chance to form a circle of safety. The importance of consecration has always been murky to me but it seemed like no matter when Davina died she'd be subjected to the same treatment.

Essentially, I suppose I recognize Davina deserved to live and it would be right for her to get a second (third?) chance but not matter how much Davina deserved to live I can't rationalize why Freya and Elijah would be expected to sacrifice their family for someone who tried to kill Klaus & Elijah in the past/last week. If the Mikaelsons stop putting family first than they've lost everything; unconditional love and blind loyalty are both incredibly beautiful and tragically destructive ideals.

The sire lines aren't innocent but they were still thousands of people completely ignored. Marcel accused Klaus of ruining more lives/families than anyone who ever lived without knowing or caring and that's quite possibly true but Marcel bit Elijah knowing he would kill a third of the vampire population. Perhaps it was unfair to want Vincent to recognize the bigger vampire picture but he was really the only candidate.

55 minutes ago, doram said:

He didn't release it for kicks, he did it as a reaction to Marcel's clamp down on witches back in the day and even after the loss of his wife and baby, Vincent is still doing all the self-crucifying himself already. Ref his determination to preserve Detective Logan's life, to take a 3rd option with the kids, etc. I'm guessing there'll be more backlash as the season goes on but right now, I don't see anything extraordinary about the way the situation is being handled. The two men most responsible for the Hollow - Marcel and Vincent - are spearheading the efforts to stop it.

Sorry, that made me think of Stefan's Ripper years being excused because afterwards he felt terrible - he put the heads back on and everything!

I know Vincent was desperate and determined to protect his unborn child, though the loss of his wife and baby would be more reason to self crucify. Vincent taking responsibility and commitment to stopping this thing is genuinely admirable, I have very little against Vincent himself but I do think he's accepted easier than others. Simply being a witch probably gained him a degree of forgiveness after releasing the Hollow, I think the backlash if a vampire inadvertently freed a force set on child sacrifice would be quite different. Maxine's unwavering trust in Vincent even when he says he's responsible for the thing that took her son was strange but maybe that can be attributed to how Vincent held the covens together post-ancestors.

 

I've been finding this quite enjoyable so I hope that you recognize the there's no ill intent. 

[wonderchica05]

Kol said in the previous episode Davina would be 23 now. So she was 18 when she died.