Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[Guest]

I hear lots of compliments for Flash showing Team Arrow more than Arrow actually does this season...but..it didn't really. Not as far as Diggle is concerned. 

 

 

No, there wasn't really much 'Team Arrow' in The Flash at all, at least not how I see the team dynamic and how well they work together. They were just kind of there. But that was ok with me. I think Diggle will have more of a role tonight, at least I really hope so!

[DrSpaceman10]

"So Close" by Jon Mclaughlin has become Oliver/Felicity's theme song for me.

 

I literally was just listening to that song last night, and thinking the EXACT same thing.

[SmallScreenDiva]

There wasn't a lot of actual Team Arrow-ing, but it felt like there was a lot of Team Arrow because Oliver, Felicity and Diggle were actually interacting with one another; something I've missed this season on Arrow. We got Felicity and Diggle talking about Big Belly Burger, then Oliver, Felicity and Diggle with Barry (a friend pointed out how Felicity patted Diggle's arm after he mentioned his cousin who got struck by lightning, too; that girl is such a sweetie). Later we got Diggle and Oliver having that funny conversation about Barry's speed. Of course, we got Felicity and Oliver at the coffee shop.

[Fire Spirit]

I know its crossover week and fun & banter is Olicity's signature but a little continuity and realism wouldnt hurt. What has happened to "moving on" Felicity and" I can only be the Arrow" Oliver.  Did they just conveniently forget last week Felicity kissed or got kissed by Ray Palmer, you know her creepy,  money throwing boss.  With Oliver witnessing it and throwing a toddler tantrum afterwards. I know they are friends and teammates, but they seem way too flirty and chill in these last 2 episodes, as if nothing ever happened in the last few episodes. 

Otherwise whats the point of obstacles if you don't have to overcome them. If they want them to be star crossed lovers, will they wont they, then they have to be willing to put them through a ring of fire and come out of the other side even stronger, that is kind of the point and meaning of those tropes ain't it. But its like they have one leg in and one leg out, which makes for inconsistent storytelling. 

Edited December 5, 2014 by Fire Spirit

[NumberCruncher]

I know its crossover week and fun & banter is Olicity's signature but a little continuity and realism wouldnt hurt. What has happened to "moving on" Felicity and" I can only be the Arrow" Oliver.  Did they just conveniently forget last week Felicity kissed or got kissed by Ray Palmer, you know her creepy,  money throwing boss.  With Oliver witnessing it and throwing a toddler tantrum afterwards. I know they are friends and teammates, but they seem way too flirty and chill in these last 2 episodes, as if nothing ever happened in the last few episodes. 

Otherwise whats the point of obstacles if you don't have to overcome them. If they want them to be star crossed lovers, will they wont they, then they have to be willing to put them through a ring of fire and come out of the other side even stronger. that is kind of the point and meaning of those tropes ain't it. But its like they have one leg in and one leg out, which makes for inconsistent storytelling.

I think a big reason is because if you look at the writing credits for the crossover episodes, you see that they were mainly Kreisberg and Berlanti's stories. Guggenheim wrote the teleplay for the Arrow episode, but the flow of the plot came from the former two. Since they haven't really been involved with the show since the season premiere, I think that's why we're seeing such inconsistency in how the Oliver and Felicity relationship is being written episode to episode. Personally, I like Kreisberg and Berlanti's interpretation of things, but sadly I can't have that while their attention is focused on Central City.

[apinknightmare]

I know its crossover week and fun & banter is Olicity's signature but a little continuity and realism wouldnt hurt. What has happened to "moving on" Felicity and" I can only be the Arrow" Oliver.  Did they just conveniently forget last week Felicity kissed or got kissed by Ray Palmer, you know her creepy,  money throwing boss.  With Oliver witnessing it and throwing a toddler tantrum afterwards. I know they are friends and teammates, but they seem way too flirty and chill in these last 2 episodes, as if nothing ever happened in the last few episodes. 

Otherwise whats the point of obstacles if you don't have to overcome them. If they want them to be star crossed lovers, will they wont they, then they have to be willing to put them through a ring of fire and come out of the other side even stronger. that is kind of the point and meaning of those tropes ain't it. But its like they have one leg in and one leg out, which makes for inconsistent storytelling. 

 

I'm conflicted on this one, because Oliver told Barry that he needed to let Iris go, for both their sakes, so I'm assuming that's what he's trying to do. And I'm glad that he's trying to do that, because the alternative is him being kind of douchey to Felicity because he's upset, so it's nice to see him making an effort to be nice to her and keep things at least somewhat the way they were. I didn't think they were really all that flirtatious or anything, but they definitely had a vibe about them. They love each other, though. I think it's difficult to turn that all the way off, regardless of how you're actually trying to handle the relationship part of things. I mean, Felicity doesn't know Diggle had that talk with Oliver about her overhearing the conversation with Cutter. We know she heard it, but he didn't say anything that she didn't already know or hadn't heard before, so it's not like he delivered any new information to her to be incredibly hurt by (stung, yes, but I think she could get past it fairly quickly). And she doesn't know that Oliver saw her kissing Ray. 

 

The only thing that I thought was really questionable was Felicity's sigh about the land mines. Not that she'd have the thought or think of it fondly or anything, but that she'd express it like that with him right there. Maybe she thought he wouldn't remember, or it just slipped out?

Edited December 5, 2014 by apinknightmare

[Password]

OK I'm going to be super hypocritical here.

I. Don't. Care. I am perfectly happy to forget that ish storm happened last week to enjoy both crossover episodes. I adored how adorable both of them were, and I'm not ashamed.

Although I think @apinknightmare has a point. Oliver told Barry (basically) the hero doesn't get the girl. He seemed resigned to that fact and accepted it. I think now he's just...chill about it. He's in love with her, but nothing will happen, so slip into adorable married couple mode he goes. Nothing will happen, there's no need to be rude because he's accepted she's (potentially) with Ray now.

That's why the scene in ep 9 will be interesting because...crap I'm on my tablet and I can't put spoiler tags. Well OK I'll leave it at ep 9 will be interesting because reasons.

[NumberCruncher]

Re: Oliver's treatment of Felicity in their working environment...it's not really been all that inconsistent throughout this season. That's at least one thing I can give the show credit for. Both of them have managed to push aside their personal drama (for the most part) because they know there are more important things to worry about. Even in their darkest times they haven't been biting each other's heads off and the one time Oliver did after Sara's murder he immediately apologized.

[Carrie Ann]

I'm conflicted on this one, because Oliver told Barry that he needed to let Iris go, for both their sakes, so I'm assuming that's what he's trying to do. And I'm glad that he's trying to do that, because the alternative is him being kind of douchey to Felicity because he's upset, so it's nice to see him making an effort to be nice to her and keep things at least somewhat the way they were. I didn't think they were really all that flirtatious or anything, but they definitely had a vibe about them. They love each other, though. I think it's difficult to turn that all the way off, regardless of how you're actually trying to handle the relationship part of things. I mean, Felicity doesn't know Diggle had that talk with Oliver about her overhearing the conversation with Cutter. We know she heard it, but he didn't say anything that she didn't already know or hadn't heard before, so it's not like he delivered any new information to her to be incredibly hurt by (stung, yes, but I think she could get past it fairly quickly). And she doesn't know that Oliver saw her kissing Ray. 

 

The only thing that I thought was really questionable was Felicity's sigh about the land mines. Not that she'd have the thought or think of it fondly or anything, but that she'd express it like that with him right there. Maybe she thought he wouldn't remember, or it just slipped out?

 

I think your first point is kind of the clincher: like, Oliver is saying all of these things, but then sort of doing the opposite. He's talking about how he feels like he's losing Oliver Queen, and all that's left is the Arrow, and like Barry said, he's full of crap. We haven't seen that AT ALL this season. Not at all. Instead, he's enforcing his humanity, strengthening relationships, reaching out to his loved ones, sparing villains, etc.

 

Felicity is the only person he's pushed away. Everyone else, he's pulled closer. So yeah, it was kind of jarring to see them so cute and smiley and together-seeming on The Flash, but I chalked it up to just trying to fit the tone of that show. But then it was the same on TBATB. So I look to his conversations with Barry--who has been established as being Felicity in dude-form, and who clearly took what would have been her place in S2 in these convos--and that's the only way to explain it. That Oliver thinks he's trying to let her go, but has actually finally stopped pushing her away; he just hasn't realized it yet. Or maybe he has, as of that conversation with Barry, and now we'll see the results in Ep 9.

 

And as for Felicity, she has continued to put on her friendly face with Oliver for the most part. so her behavior wasn't confusing to me, except the landmine thing, which I agree did seem like an S2 throwback. I kind of think it was, in a way, but maybe we are supposed to see that she really hasn't had much success in pushing her feelings down, and maybe she doesn't feel like trying anymore either. I hope we see/hear her side of things in 309 too.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Carrie Ann

[apinknightmare]

Yeah, I think they've both accepted how they feel and that nothing will come of it so they're just letting it fly at this point. And I'm happy to watch that, because I think they're so nice to watch together - Felicity softens him so much (no one get dirty with this, please).

[Password]

And as for Felicity, she has continued to put on her friendly face with Oliver for the most part. so her behavior wasn't confusing to me, except the landmine thing, which I agree did seem like an S2 throwback. I kind of think it was, in a way, but maybe we are supposed to see that she really hasn't had much success in pushing her feelings down, and maybe she doesn't feel like trying anymore either. I hope we see/hear her side of things in 309 too.

Yep yep yep. I desperately want to see inside of Miss Smoak's mind. I think/hope ep 9 will allow us that common courtesy because Oliver is going bye bye. When things get real, honesty is appreciated.

[NumberCruncher]

Felicity does soften Oliver up--that was plainly obvious in the crossover where he was a sulky mope through most of it. She was largely responsible for the few evasive Oliver Queen smiles we got to see (Barry being the other responsible party). I thought it was pretty brilliant that they used her to make Oliver more human/relatable by having her "hock" him into helping out and translating his spiel at the S.T.A.R. Labs peeps into a much more gracious exchange. It was a delight to watch.

[SleepDeprived]

Yeah, I think that the ease with which Oliver interacted with Felicity in the Flash part of the crossover and the early part of the Arrow episode was him just enjoying being around her and not thinking much about his angst since the metahumans/Captain Boomerang issues were more at the forefront of his mind than anything else. The banter between Oliver and Felicity was sweet and they were a lot more comfortable with each other but, also, there was a sense of melancholy in Oliver's expressions, especially when he gave his fail love advice to Barry.

 

And as for Felicity, she has continued to put on her friendly face with Oliver for the most part. so her behavior wasn't confusing to me, except the landmine thing, which I agree did seem like an S2 throwback. I kind of think it was, in a way, but maybe we are supposed to see that she really hasn't had much success in pushing her feelings down, and maybe she doesn't feel like trying anymore either. I hope we see/hear her side of things in 309 too.

 

I agree with this. Felicity has been trying to get the two of them back to their old comfortable (married couple) routine since Corto Maltese. She's been trying to move on, for a while now, because there's no point in being a masochist and hoping for all those 'maybes' that Oliver keeps referencing obliquely but, as far as she knows, has shown no initiative in pursuing. she would rather they remain good friends/formidable partners than bickering or sniping at each other over their feelings.

 

Regarding the land mine sigh, I think the easy, comfortable attitude of everyone around the lair made her slip a little since she immediately, tried to shut down further questions by, flippantly, saying "It's a long story." It seems like a really fond memory for her (part of her those quiet dreams?) and she seemed quite bashful, barely even able to meet his eyes, when Oliver was giving her that soft, amused look that he reserves, only for her.

[Fire Spirit]

I think a big reason is because if you look at the writing credits for the crossover episodes, you see that they were mainly Kreisberg and Berlanti's stories. Guggenheim wrote the teleplay for the Arrow episode, but the flow of the plot came from the former two. Since they haven't really been involved with the show since the season premiere, I think that's why we're seeing such inconsistency in how the Oliver and Felicity relationship is being written episode to episode. Personally, I like Kreisberg and Berlanti's interpretation of things, but sadly I can't have that while their attention is focused on Central City.

Yeah, you likely have a point there. I just expected these guys to have sorted these issues out. The 3 producers always seemed like this one oiled machine, working together closely, I guess not anymore . 

 

And I'm glad that he's trying to do that, because the alternative is him being kind of douchey to Felicity because he's upset, so it's nice to see him making an effort to be nice to her and keep things at least somewhat the way they were.

 

 

No I dont want him to be douchey or rude. To me there is another alternative, that is not acting in a way that seems like he is leading Felicity on while he hasnt changed his mind. Giving her space when he thinks she is dating someone else (even though there is no relationship between Palmer and Felicity but Oliver doesnt know that). Fairly though it was Felicity who did most of the leading on these episodes, all the same not knowing that Oliver had changed his mind then unchanged it, and after she seemed to like Palmer kissing her. I just expect a balance between showing longing and understanding the reality of the current situation. 

 

Like the poster above,  stated though, I do understand if this inconsistency is due to the lack of communication between the two shows.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Fire Spirit

[apinknightmare]

Yeah, you likely have a point there. I just expected these guys to have sorted these issue out. 

 

 

No I dont want him to be douchey or rude. To me there is another alternative, that is not acting in a way that seems like he is leading Felicity on while he hasnt changed his mind. Giving her space when he thinks she is dating someone else (even though there is no relationship between Palmer and Felicity but Oliver doesnt know that). Fairly though it was Felicity who did most of the leading on these episodes, all the same not knowing that Oliver had changed his mind then unchanged it, and after she seemed to like Palmer kissing her. I just expect a balance between showing longing and understanding the reality of the current situation. 

 

Like the poster above,  stated though, I do understand if this inconsistency is due to the lack of communication between the two shows.

 

Just wondering which interactions you thought were Felicity leading Oliver on? To me she seemed like her normal self, the only issue I had was with her comment about the land mines on the island. Apart from that I thought that everything was above the board between the two of them - even though it's obvious that they care about each other deeply and know each other well. I didn't get anything inappropriate from Oliver (if he thinks Felicity's in a relationship with Ray now), either.

Edited December 5, 2014 by apinknightmare

[Password]

I get the feeling they can't really help how they act around it each other. To them it's normal, to us, we stamp "married" on their foreheads. It's probably how they acted pre date. They just can't help being adorable.

IMO no one is leading the other on. They're just being.

[Carrie Ann]

Yep, you could draw a throughline from their interactions from S2 to 301 and then F108/A308. It's those six episodes in between where we were missing this kind of smiley ease. I mean, you saw glimpses of it in 305, but then Felicity shut that down at the end (and again--"You know how I feel about her" is not "letting her go," Oliver). So I see where @Fire Spirit is coming from. I felt the same confusion, but my reaction was more like, "OK, this is how it's supposed to be, so let's call those OTHER episodes anomalous, and go with this." 

Edited December 5, 2014 by Carrie Ann

[Guest]

I do think it's strange to go from 307 to 108 but I took Oliver and Felicity's married behavior in The Flash as a direct result of the tone of the show. They were always going to be lighter because the show is lighter. Plus they came to CC to do a job and they've already proven that they can put their drama aside, for the most part, and get on with the task in hand. 

 

As others have said, this is just Oliver and Felicity's natural pattern of behavior tbh. They fall back into it easily because it is easy for them. It's just how they are. That's what I love about them and it was such a relief to see after them being so distant with one another this season. It just reminded me how forced the angst is because that's not who they are at heart. 

 

So I totally understand being confused by the lack of continuity but at the same time I'm not bothered because seeing them so at ease was desperately needed at this point. 

[dtissagirl]

It's like the more the writers try to complicate Oliver/Felicity, the more the characters themselves fight against it, and just behave like always.

[Orion]

I'm sure how Felicity and Oliver were acting has a little bit to do with each of the reasons mentioned above but I also think it has to do with what the producers were trying to do with the crossover.

 

They are trying to sell the Flash audience on Arrow (the same for the Arrow audience being sold to the Flash). The writers are trying to set up what your viewing experience will be on the other show. Introduce you to the characters and help you bond to them. Arrow introduced Team Arrow and Olicity because those are the most popular elements of Arrow. Basically the episode said these are the heroes (Oliver and Barry), this is their personalities (moody and happy-go-lucky) these are their teams (Diggle, Felicity and Caitlyn and Cisco respectively) and these are the romantic pairings (Felicity, Iris) . A new viewer to each of those shows now knows in a nutshell how they are set up, the parallels and commonality between the two teams. They have an hour to sell both shows so the writers aren't going to angst up a relationship. They want viewers tuning in to see the couple that they enjoyed on the crossovers the writers so that the introductions were positive. If you didn't know Oliver and Felicity you would see them interacting, get a taste of their chemistry and what they will eventually be like so that a new viewer is more willing to put up with the roadblocks part of their relationship because they enjoyed how they were in the past. 

 

They dumped a ton of information out there, just in the Flash episode you learned that the team is trying to solve the Canary's murder, that Oliver thinks he can't get the girl but wants her, that Barry and Felicity are over so that she is free to date Oliver, Diggle watches Oliver's back, that Oliver has a ton of experience and has been a vigilante/hero for a long time but uses methods that Barry never would, that Felicity is good with computers and runs the coms for Team Arrow, etc (I'm sure I'm missing a ton more).

 

TV crossovers tend to put their best foot forward. Here are our characters/show at it's best. The objective is to grab as many new eyes as you can, they write to what appeals to the larger audience in their own show.

 

I actually found it super interesting what parts of the show they choose to downplay and what parts they promoted in the crossovers.  It at least in my mind confirmed that they know what sells people on Arrow. Why they won't focus on that in normal episodes I have no idea.

[statsgirl]

I agree with this. Felicity has been trying to get the two of them back to their old comfortable (married couple) routine since Corto Maltese. She's been trying to move on, for a while now, because there's no point in being a masochist and hoping for all those 'maybes' that Oliver keeps referencing obliquely but, as far as she knows, has shown no initiative in pursuing. she would rather they remain good friends/formidable partners than bickering or sniping at each other over their feelings.

It really is surprisingly mature of her for a TV show.  Yet another reason to like the character of Felicity.

 

TV crossovers tend to put their best foot forward. Here are our characters/show at it's best. The objective is to grab as many new eyes as you can, they write to what appeals to the larger audience in their own show.

 

I actually found it super interesting what parts of the show they choose to downplay and what parts they promoted in the crossovers.  It at least in my mind confirmed that they know what sells people on Arrow. Why they won't focus on that in normal episodes I have no idea.

As you said, cross-overs are to bring in new viewers, so what you want to do is give a snapshot of who these characters are and how they relate.  In that sense, it's important to concentrate on the long-term relationships, interactions and storylines so people know what to expect if they choose to tune in to the show. On Arrow, the longterm stuff is Diggle being the wise one and the one who is in a stable relationship, Roy is generalized support, and for Oliver and Felicity, it's the "they're so married but not together yet".  The stuff with kissing Ray and Oliver's "I can't be with anyone" is just a blip on the long term plan.  You don't want to sell the blips because then people will not get what they're expecting if they do decide to tune in.  For example, if they played up Oliver's attitude from Cupid that he can't be with anyone and a new viewer expected him to stay single and all his female love interests to move on or die, and they might be pretty disappointed if (when) he does end up with someone.

Edited December 5, 2014 by statsgirl

[wonderwall]

It's hilarious, and it just highlights how brilliant they could make Oliver/Felicity if they just chucked away all the stupid pointless angst.

I have a good feeling we'll get back to this once Oliver realizes he can be the Arrow and Oliver Queen. I think this realization is the only thing that's keeping them apart right now and once he figures this out, everything else will fall into place. Felicity, his team, Thea, his mission, what he wants out of life etc.  I have a feeling that next season will be much lighter in regards to Oliver. I hope we see Oliver/Felicity be in a strong relationship by next season, one that isn't easily threatened by random estranged kids and whatnot. While I can easily see this happening, I can also see the writers wanting to have some forced drama and keep Oliver/Felicity apart even longer (which imo seems ridiculous at this stage). 

 

My hope is that we'll even get to see Oliver be more political whilst Diggle and Lyla take charge of ARGUS and Felicity is in charge of Queen Inc. once Ray leaves. I think that would actually be quite wonderful. It'd be interesting to see the most powerful figures in Starling having a double life. 

 

And in regards to Oliver/Felicity... I can see them happily dating in season 4 with a few bumps in the road, going through a lot of troubles but facing them head on as a unit in season 5, and in season 6 I can see them living together and whatnot. I hope this is what happens. 

[BkWurm1]

OK I'm going to be super hypocritical here.

I. Don't. Care. I am perfectly happy to forget that ish storm happened last week to enjoy both crossover episodes. I adored how adorable both of them were, and I'm not ashamed.

Although I think @apinknightmare has a point. Oliver told Barry (basically) the hero doesn't get the girl. He seemed resigned to that fact and accepted it. I think now he's just...chill about it. He's in love with her, but nothing will happen, so slip into adorable married couple mode he goes. Nothing will happen, there's no need to be rude because he's accepted she's (potentially) with Ray now.

That's why the scene in ep 9 will be interesting because...crap I'm on my tablet and I can't put spoiler tags. Well OK I'll leave it at ep 9 will be interesting because reasons.

FYI, if you are on your tablet and want to do spoilers or quotes, there is a way to still do it manually.  In the front of your Spoiler or quotes types

(or quote, capitalization does not matter) and at the end type [\Spoiler]  (or quote)  

 

I have run into a glitch sometimes that puts my spoiler on the top of my post but then I just cut and paste it to where it belongs.  :)

Edited December 6, 2014 by BkWurm1

[TanyaKay]

I have a question for people here.

When baby mama met Oliver at Jitters and said that Oliver's mom loved him very much and he just smiled and shrugged and moved on, I was screaming at my TV saying why is he not asking baby mama how did she know his mom, as far as Oliver is concerned, Moira and Baby mama never met each other. But then I fanwanked myself into thinking that may be he was overwhelmed with seeing this ghost from the past and then she remembered his mom and it has only been 7 or 8 months sibce her death and he is still kinda vulnerable so I let it go. But don't you think it was major faux pas on part of the writers?

[statsgirl]

When baby mama met Oliver at Jitters and said that Oliver's mom loved him very much and he just smiled and shrugged and moved on, I was screaming at my TV saying why is he not asking baby mama how did she know his mom, as far as Oliver is concerned, Moira and Baby mama never met each other. 

The practical answer is that the EPs don't want to deal with it right now, so they dropped it in to remind people of the plotline for season 4 or whenever.

 

The psychological answer is that when you miss a parent or another loved you, you don't really question someone saying "X loved you" because you miss the other person so much. My mother died a couple of years before Moira but I miss her so much that when someone says "she really loved you", I grab on to that connection and hold tight.   It doesn't matter if it's true or not, or if the other person actually knew what the situation was, I just want that validation so much, I don't question it.

[Genki]

I really enjoyed the big brother little brother vibe that Oliver & Barry had going on, the actors have great chemistry. But it sort of highlights to me that there is something lacking the the Arrow/Arsenal relationship. [Note: I enjoyed Roy this week ]

 

I don't have t comic background so I'm wondering if it is mean to be this way, and I'm missing something, or has the fast-track to Arsenal hurt the mentor/mentee dynamic they need for a super hero and their sidekick?

[WaitandHope]

TanyaKay, maybe I'm giving the EPs. too much credit, but I really thought that baby mama said that about Moira so Oliver would question why she said it and wonder how she knew his mom loved him. Clarifying, I think baby mama let it slip unintentionally but the EPs did it intentionally. Giving him that nagging feeling of looking into it (when things calm down)...

[calliope1975]

I really enjoyed the big brother little brother vibe that Oliver & Barry had going on, the actors have great chemistry. But it sort of highlights to me that there is something lacking the the Arrow/Arsenal relationship. [Note: I enjoyed Roy this week ]

 

I don't have t comic background so I'm wondering if it is mean to be this way, and I'm missing something, or has the fast-track to Arsenal hurt the mentor/mentee dynamic they need for a super hero and their sidekick?

 

My friend and I watched the crossover Arrow ep today at work, and my friend mentioned that Barry seems much more fun, quippy, and like his comic version than in the regular episodes of The Flash. I said I thought it was because Oliver and Barry have a older brother/annoying younger brother relationship and Barry doesn't have anyone like that on his show. Likewise, Oliver doesn't have that either on Arrow. 

 

I think because Roy's had such a hard life he doesn't have the lightheartedness that Barry does. Barry's had trauma, too, but his natural personality is fun and light. Roy is more sarcastic and guarded. It's a shame that we missed out on Oliver really training Roy and building their relationship. Sidekick isn't quite the same as the little brother vibe, but they haven't taken any time to really show it. Plus, Roy's so innocuous to me. He's just kind of there, in the background. In the field, he's parkour!-ing around town. The one thing I do like is that Roy always gets taken out so quickly and seems to be surprised whenever he hits a mark. He shouldn't be as good as Oliver or Diggle even if he has a shiny, red costume. 

[tv echo]

The use of red and blue colors to symbolize Oliver versus Ray as a romantic partner for Felicity has previously been discussed in various threads here.  This article's writer is optimistic...

Arrow writers are using colors this season to give Olicity shippers hope.
*   *   *
In episode 3x07, John Diggle visits Felicity in her office to tell her how Oliver is being affected by her relationship with Palmer. The blue dress looms over them in the background during their discussion, but if you look carefully, you'll see a red pen on Felicity's desk. I believe this is the writers way of telling the audience that Palmer might be who she is interested in at the moment, but Oliver is not far from her thoughts. A dress is used for an evening. A pen is used everyday.

It Was Red
by Kay Spauls ⋅ Posted on December 4th, 2014 at 12:56am
http://moviepilot.com/posts/2014/12/04/it-was-red-2482561?lt_source=external,manual,manual,manual

Edited December 6, 2014 by tv echo

[SonofaBiscuit]

I kind of loved Oliver and Felicity's body language in the first part of the crossover.  While the two were getting coffee at Jitters, Oliver had his hands clasped on the table with his torso leaning towards Felicity.  He's open and trusting with her (and with Barry as well), but as soon as Iris shows up to give him coffee, he crosses his arms against his chest.

 

Then, as was mentioned in another thread, Oliver physically places Felicity's body between him and Iris at the end of the episode.  I have to laugh at the way he steps back and to the side, effectively coupling himself to Felicity.

 

Then there's the sing-songy way that Felicity walks up to Oliver to hand him his coffee (right before baby mama appears).  She gets so far up in his personal space that when he stands up to leave, I'm pretty sure that his chest bumps into her left hand, which is holding her cup of coffee.

 

So yeah, while Oliver is saying that he can't be in a relationship with Felicity, his body is definitely not on the same page.  Haha!

Edited December 8, 2014 by SonofaBiscuit

[quarks]

So, Ray and Felicity.

 

Sigh.

 

Let's get my biases out of the way here, shall we? Yes, I'm shipping Oliver and Felicity.  But I don't think that's why I'm having a problem with this pairing.

 

To review:

 

Episode one: Ray uses underhanded and unnecessary methods to help him take over Oliver's company. Ray then pings Felicity's phone and tracks her to a hospital.  Felicity calls this stalking. I agree. Warning sign one.

 

Episode two: Ray buys out her company to force her to work for him, then condescendingly tells her that she's really angry about something else.  We also learn that he's been heavily pursuing her. Warning sign two.

 

Episode three: This was the only episode where I was ok with them: Ray gives her the VP job and an assistant and was amusing during the scene where everyone calls her for help. That said, this is another eyebrow raising episode, what with Ray interested in weapons development and not batting an eye at learning that one of his major executives continues to do hacking stuff.

 

Episode five: Ray shows up at her apartment, uninvited, without warning, early in the morning. Major warning sign, four.  Later he asks her to have drinks in their office. Minor warning sign, five.  To counter this, the bit where he let her take off "sick" was nice.

 

Episode seven: We've argued here before about whether or not Ray was creepy/out of line in this episode or not, but I'll now argue that the very fact that we're arguing indicates a problem, along with the issue that what Ray did is against most HR guidelines in major companies, presumably including Arrow's parent company.

 

Episode nine: Ray pings her phone and follows her from work so that he can continue a conversation that she has already said she wants him to drop, ignoring her request to keep things on a professional level. Stalking.

 

That's three episodes of stalking, one episode of inappropriate arriving at her apartment, one episode of inappropriate work behavior.

 

Ok, this hasn't yet hit the Oliver/Laurel levels of toxicity yet, but this is not looking good. Now we have to add this:

 

According to his story, Ray lost whatever her name was during Slade's attack, which was back in May, or about six, six and a half months from the time of her death to the time he kissed Felicity.  We've had Laurel get uncomfortable and rush off when her boss/date gave her a compliment at dinner just six months after Tommy's death, as well as tell Oliver that she can't date him just five months after Tommy's death.

 

Meanwhile, over on Flash, Star Labs went bang in December, which means that Ronnie's apparent death happened in December. Skip forward to December, a year later, and Caitlin is still mourning her fiancee and not dating anyone.  We've also had Dr. Wells apparently avoiding all relationships since the death of his wife, and Barry, in script, admitting that he has been so distracted by his mother's death that he hasn't been able to pursue normal relationships.

 

Which means both shows have now established that it takes time to get over the death of a significant other. I realize that unlike the couples mentioned above, Felicity and Oliver technically weren't dating - but they were doing everything short of dating, and just a few episodes ago - granted, over on Flash - she made her feelings clear; just last week she had that landmine comment. 

 

Which is to say, I'm going to have two different issues with this relationship going forward if the writers really go with it: one, the unhealthy way it's been set up (I'm fanwanking that Felicity is so upset about Oliver she isn't noticing that) and two, the timing.

[statsgirl]

I think we are supposed to see the stalking as Ray having social problems and not realizing when he crossing the proper line.  He's not in Sheldon Cooper territory but he is definitely not following the rules for polite company.  What doesn't make sense about this is that he's supposed to be a successful, charming businessman.  Typically, those guys have their social manners down pat.

 

The timing is much more problematic for me, which is why I'm hoping that now that Ray has shown Felicity his plans and Felicity and Oliver had their not-quite-9 scene, that a Ray/Felicity romance is off the table. Hopefully Felicity will decide that Ray is not over Anna and keep her distance, and as for Felicity, there is no way I will accept her dating Ray within the next year, whether Oliver is dead or alive. 

[BkWurm1]

Dating, no, absolutely no...I don't think there is any way that the show could actually think now they could sell a real relationship but what if they try to pass off a desperately sad hook up?

 

Please no. 

[Ariah]

After what went on in 3.09 I just can't see Felicity turning to Ray for romance, even in desperation.

 

I can see her broken ("I didn't tell him I loved him!" "I told him to go!") but not that she would jump into a relationship with Ray in the span of two months. It just doesn't compute.

[BkWurm1]

Episode one: Ray uses underhanded and unnecessary methods to help him take over Oliver's company. Ray then pings Felicity's phone and tracks her to a hospital.  Felicity calls this stalking. I agree. Warning sign one.

 

Episode two: Ray buys out her company to force her to work for him, then condescendingly tells her that she's really angry about something else.  We also learn that he's been heavily pursuing her. Warning sign two.

 

 

To be fair before Ray pinged her phone, she turned all his personal computing devices into porcupine whoopee cushions - just saying both are fine with crossing some boundaries even if Ray crossed a bigger one.

 

Also while he bought out her company to force her to work for him, it didn't work.  She quit instead and when she did decide to work for him, it wasn't a financial decision so while he did bring about a lot of pressure for her to work for him, after she said her hell no and quit, he didn't chase her anymore.  Maybe he would have tried something more, but as it was shown, she said a final no and he let her be.  He was heavily chasing her as an employee, it wasn't because she was a woman.  I fully believe he would have done something similar if the person he was after was some nerd boy that never bathed.  So for me, made a huge difference on the creep factor. 

 

He did say that she was actually mad about something else and while that sounds horribly condescending, he was actually right or at least he was right that she wasn't upset with him to the degree that she was displaying her anger. 

 

Episode three: This was the only episode where I was ok with them: Ray gives her the VP job and an assistant and was amusing during the scene where everyone calls her for help. That said, this is another eyebrow raising episode, what with Ray interested in weapons development and not batting an eye at learning that one of his major executives continues to do hacking stuff.

 

Episode five: Ray shows up at her apartment, uninvited, without warning, early in the morning. Major warning sign, four.  Later he asks her to have drinks in their office. Minor warning sign, five.  To counter this, the bit where he let her take off "sick" was nice.

 

Episode seven: We've argued here before about whether or not Ray was creepy/out of line in this episode or not, but I'll now argue that the very fact that we're arguing indicates a problem, along with the issue that what Ray did is against most HR guidelines in major companies, presumably including Arrow's parent company.

 

I think the reason why I don't find him creepy is that while he can be over the top and even a bit controlling, he's not really trying to control Felicity.  He actually gives her a tremendous amount of space and flexibility to do her job and live her life.  He pushes some basic boundaries but he doesn't hound her for details of her life or demand explanations for her activities.  He kind of thinks the world should revolve around him but he's never cruel or mean or malicious. 

 

Episode nine: Ray pings her phone and follows her from work so that he can continue a conversation that she has already said she wants him to drop, ignoring her request to keep things on a professional level. Stalking.

 

 

She made a request to keep it on a professional level but only after they'd already gone past purely professional.  I'm not talking about the kiss, I'm talking about them being friends of a sort.  He's been her ear or shoulder to  cry on too many times already and he wanted her around at the dinner purely for his amusement.  Friends.  Then they did the kiss thing and it was uncomfortable but I won't hold it against Ray for wanting to get his friend back. I have a long post over in The Climb about him pinging her phone so I won't rehash that.

Ok, this hasn't yet hit the Oliver/Laurel levels of toxicity yet, but this is not looking good. Now we have to add this:

 

According to his story, Ray lost whatever her name was during Slade's attack, which was back in May, or about six, six and a half months from the time of her death to the time he kissed Felicity.

 

And he felt guilty about it.  It was too soon for him too.  I think that is also a point in his favor.

 

He's a lot of work and neither Felicity nor Ray are anywhere near a place where they should even entertain a thought about a relationship, but I just can't see him as a creepy, toxic, stalker.  He's intense, but never is that intensity really aimed at Felicity.  It seemingly was when he was recruiting her but that wasn't so much at her as at his next step in his ultimate plan to do his nutty shrinking plan. He sees her as a person now and while he clearly has no respect for boundaries he doesn't try to control where she goes or what she does nor does he expect her to tell him nor is he upset when she doesn't. 

 

He inserts himself into her life, but he isn't trying to make himself the focus of her life and that really sets him apart from the creeps and stalkers and controlling a-holes that do create true dangerous and toxic relationships. 

[apinknightmare]

I will jokingly call Ray a stalker, but I don't truly believe that he is one. I've had a stalker, and there's a level of terror involved that I've never gotten from Felicity. She's always seemed more annoyed and put out by him than anything, which, given his behavior, is perfectly understandable.

 

When I found out that Felicity was getting a love interest this season, I was genuinely excited. I love her and I want her to be treated well, and to be happy and have love in her life. I wanted to root for this person, I wanted him to finally give Felicity her due. Ray has done that, but in arguably questionable and/or icky ways. And what kills me is that it didn't have to be this way - the writers could've written Ray so that we weren't sure what his intentions were and shown that he was socially inept without going the route that they have. I didn't (and don't) expect him to be perfect - I ship her with Oliver and lord knows there's some problematic behavior there, but at least with him I know where he's coming from. I'm hoping now that Ray's secrets (or a few of them, I guess) are out there he'll back off with some of this stuff a bit.

 

I hate that this relationship (or potential relationship) requires dissertation-like posts on why his behavior is or is not creepy, and I'm not putting down the people who write these posts - I've been one of them on occasion. I just hoped for and expected more than that; it's just another way in which this season has been disappointing thus far.

Edited December 11, 2014 by apinknightmare

[Password]

Ray is a funny one. He can be sweet and naive, and he can be go getter and controlling. I've long since given up the stalker notion, but I dearly would like someone to sit him down and tell him what he does isn't normal. Preferably Felicity but she seems to find him endearing.

Diggle would be great. I wouldn't be adverse to Oliver getting in a cheap shot somewhere...how quickly does Ray heal?

[statsgirl]

Nope, I want it to be Felicity, but only if his behavior is bothering her. because this arc for Felicity has been all about empowering her and giving her direction.  And she did that again in the Climb, but telling him she wants them to go back to a professional relationship.  (Not that they ever really were, but they were in terms of what Ray and Felicity do.)

 

For all that this hasn't been an ideal alternative relationship for Felicity .... well, maybe it has.  He's a guy who values her brains and what she can do with them in terms of tech (unlike Oliver), he promotes her to VP status (unlike Oliver who made her his EA), and he gives her lots of space and time to do her own thing, whether it's with Team Arrow or a day off with her mom.  He's rich and handsome and treats Felicity well.  Bonus is that he's creepy enough that we're not going to take him seriously as a real alternative romantic interest.

 

So if the plan was to introduce another potential superhero vigilante while providing Felicity with an alternative to Oliver so that when she picks Oliver it's not because she doesn't have anyone else, I think they've worked it not too badly.

Edited December 11, 2014 by statsgirl

[NumberCruncher]

I don't get why Felicity has to be used to prop up the latest superhero of the month. If they insist that they must have a viable alternative why not have it be with someone normal who happens to share her same interests/intellect. All they have really accomplished with Ray is demonstrate that the relationship has been ultimately all about him as the next superhero of Starling. He sought her out specifically to help him reach that goal and the romantic angle that sprung from it has also now crossed into being all about Ray feeling again after losing his fiancee. Have they had one single conversation about how Felicity is feeling about things? Putting aside Ray's questionable behavior (which I won't discuss because it's like beating a dead horse) and Felicity making grand speeches about how wonderful he is in order to help him get the resources he needs to be a hero, this whole setup really bugs me.

Edited December 11, 2014 by NumberCruncher

[Genki]

He's a guy who values her brains and what she can do with them in terms of tech (unlike Oliver),

That's not fair to Oliver, he's really values Felicity's brain and abilities, what he doesn't prioritise is her corporate career goals. Rightly or wrongly it is secondary to the mission.

[BkWurm1]

Have they had one single conversation about how Felicity is feeling about things?

 

Not exactly a conversation but he's offered to talk and he's been a shoulder to cry on.  He hasn't pressed her about what's been bothering her, but I think it is fair to say he's made attempts to be there for her.

 

That said, I would really like to see them JUST keep it as friends and coworkers for the rest of his run on the show.  We've had the romance, love interest quotient filled, now let's move on. 

[statsgirl]

That's not fair to Oliver, he's really values Felicity's brain and abilities, what he doesn't prioritise is her corporate career goals. Rightly or wrongly it is secondary to the mission.

I didn't mean her corporate career goals but who she is as a person.  He values her brains but he's willing to put her round peg in a square hole because he wants her close in case he needs her, and he's willing to let her take the consequences e.g. the gossip.  For what Oliver wanted Felicity to do, Thea would have been a better pick for the job, if she knew the secret, because she's an organizing sort of person (e.g. the way she took over Verdant) and for Felicity it's something she can do if she has to but not where her talents lie.  Ray is willing to let Felicity be a round peg in a round hole.

 

Everything, and everyone (at that point) is secondary to the mission for Oliver.

Edited December 12, 2014 by statsgirl

[wonderwall]

Oh look, Felicity has adopted Oliver's nervous twitch! This made me way too emotional tbqh

 

 

 

Source: X

[statsgirl]

Good acting choice by EBR, since we won't get to be seeing Felicity going to sleep in Oliver's sweaty T-shirt while he's gone.

[calliope1975]

Good acting choice by EBR, since we won't get to be seeing Felicity going to sleep in Oliver's sweaty T-shirt while he's gone.

 

Well, now I'll be imagining that, so thank you!

[wonderwall]

Well, now I'll be imagining that, so thank you!

I mean I feel like that's better than imagining Felicity clutching his hood and bringing it to her face just to breathe him in a sort of melancholic desperation so she can feel closer to him. Sorta.... There's nothing wrong with me.

Edited December 12, 2014 by wonderwall

[wonderwall]

I'm going to try to analyze Oliver and Felicity and the importance of the last episode. This is kind of new for me because usually Oliver and Felicity are so uncomplicated that I don't need to think a lot about their scenes. But they've become complicated, and I don't even think I care? Because honestly, thinking this through made me appreciate what the writers are doing with Oliver and Felicity a little more. 

 

I'm going to start off by saying that Felicity's response to Ray -- "I can think of one person" -- is key to how she feels about the whole situation between her and Oliver. It's clear that Felicity was talking about Oliver (and for those naysayers, I have proof right here X), and it's clear that even though Oliver told her he loved her in a round about way in episode 1, then reminded her of his feelings in episode 5, she never really heard him or believed him because his actions said otherwise.

 

Oliver essentially blocked her off, was colder to her, was less Oliver and more Arrow to Felicity and I think that confused her. I think that made her believe that Oliver regretted kissing her, regretted going out on a date with her, and possibly regretted being with her. I think this is why Felicity has been so emotionally closed off and desperate to move on because SHE had feelings for him and it kind of hurt to know that he regretted her?

 

This is why Felicity didn't tell Oliver that she loved him when he left. Because up till that point, their relationship had no "transparency" (as Emily Bett would say) that Felicity craves for in a relationship. She only got that sense of transparency about Oliver's feelings when he straight up told her he loved her with no 'ifs' no 'buts' and no 'maybes'. I think that was a lot for her to internalize in such a short span of time before Oliver left.

 

And to be honest? I don't think Oliver needed to hear her reciprocate his feelings, he didn't want anything in return. He just wanted Felicity to know the truth. He knows how he felt and I think that was enough for him which shows just how unselfish that moment was. 

 

I think that's what made that kiss Oliver remembered all the more heartbreaking because even though Felicity at one point thought he regretted it, it actually meant the world to him. 

 

This couple will be the end of me. 

Edited December 12, 2014 by wonderwall

[KenyaJ]

I'm emotionally crippled after reading that, wonderwall. But thanks!

[wonderwall]

I'm emotionally crippled after reading that, wonderwall. But thanks!

Aw :') This was kind of nice to read! I was actually looking at a gif where Felicity said "I can think of one" and it just hit me! I think Felicity's emotions have been subtly portrayed that I usually miss it. But I'm so glad I caught it this time around. 

Edited December 12, 2014 by wonderwall

[apinknightmare]

Aw :') This was kind of nice to read! I was actually looking at a gif where Felicity said "I can think of one" and it just hit me! I think Felicity's emotions have been subtly portrayed that I usually miss it. But I'm so glad I caught it this time around. 

 

I think it's especially sad since when he kisses her goodbye, he goes for her forehead instead of her mouth. We know it's because he saw her kissing Ray, and he said he wanted her to be happy. He thinks she's moving on and finding that happiness and he doesn't want to mess with that (and he probably figures there wouldn't be much point to it anyway since there's a chance he might not come back), so he keeps it platonic, even though he's probably dying to do anything but. And she's probably a little disappointed since he's keeping it platonic, and she's probably dying for him to do anything but. 

 

I think his "I love you" really did stun her, the beautiful, usually emotionally repressed, idiotic butthead.

Edited December 12, 2014 by apinknightmare