Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

blixie · November 19, 2014

I finally figured out why I love Ray, and why I love Ray for Felicity, and it's tied into EBR's stated take on him being transparent. Which isn't to say he doesn't have secrets, I think he does, but I'd be surprised if he doesn't bring Felicity into those secrets, in the same way Oliver did. I think for me it's that I find BR's performance wonderfully earnest/awkward, he's weirdly reading way more clark kent here than he ever did on the big screen. I don't see him pathologically stalking Felcity, but he is determined and excited to work with her.

But further there is no...internal struggle with Ray, he is not undecided he has never said "maybe", and even when that combination of decisive and determined edges into overbearing/intrusive, he's still appealing, because he's incredibly good looking, smart, and importantly *emotionally perceptive*. Ray is a lot like Oilver, w/o the things that make Oliver a fucking PITA/lousy potential boyfriend. He's hot, emotionally uncomplicated, and AVAILABLE and affirmatively interested. Felicity *deserves* to explore that, even if in the end she realizes that her heart still wants what it wants: Oliver, and that while Ray is available she actually isn't.

tv echo · November 20, 2014

Maybe someone else said this before (I don't remember) or maybe I'm just slow... but I just realized that Felicity is Oliver's first adult love.

Pre-island Oliver was a boy so his love for Laurel was a boy's love. Today's Oliver is a man - a flawed man, certainly - so his love for Felicity is a man's love.

apinknightmare · November 20, 2014

Moved from the "Cupid" episode thread:

And yeah, it would've been helpful for my belief in the authenticity of the Raylicity relationship to have actually seen them working together and growing closer, seen her being impressed with him and developing a belief that he's a good guy here to do good...

...but I don't want to believe in their relationship and am glad it's utilitarian in nature. Scenes like that would signal to me they're actually *trying* it. I am glad they're not.

This is another situation where I feel like if I hadn't listened to or read any producer interviews I'd probably be enjoying the show more, or at least have different expectations.

I came away from the hiatus believing that Ray was legit and the relationship was going to be an actual real one, so that tempered my expectations for what I thought I was supposed to see in the show. Because I believed that they were trying to sell me something real, I was confused why everything was moving so fast and why there were so many missing moments.

If I were to just have watched the show, I would think nothing of Ray and Felicity, because it's so obviously being set up as a rebound/temporary thing. And I get the feeling that he's not there to be a roadblock in the traditional sense where we're supposed to be left reeling and biting our nails over which guy Felicity's going to choose, but that he's there to get Felicity into the career she deserves and to spark the realization in Oliver that he needs to fight for the life that he wants. Seems like his purpose is to keep people comfortable in the O/F ship while at the same time providing the growth both of them need, while being yet another superhero toy for the writers to bring into the fold.

I thought we'd be in for episodes of relationship building and such, but now I think it'll stay just on the other side of platonic, with some dates and flirting but not actually more than that. I'm probably 100% wrong about it though.

Luckylyn · November 20, 2014

While we're on the subject, I think we're supposed to feel for Oliver when he sees Felicity and Ray kissing and goes back to the lair. but all I saw was a grown man throwing a hissy fit because of a problem he caused. He insists on being alone. He chose to push Felicity away. He can be as upset as he wants but if he expected her to sit quietly in the lair and pine away until he decides he's ready he's a narcissistic douche. Whether you like Ray or not I'd rather see Felicity happy with someone who seems to genuinely appreciate spending time with her.

That's how I see it. Oliver is the obstacle to he and Feliciy being together and no one else. He could be with her if he were just willing to knockoff the "I want you but won't be with you" crap. All he has to do is be willing to fight and all he ever seems to do is quit on Felicity at the first sign of trouble. I sympathize will Felicity's desire to move on more than his tamper tantrums over things that are in his power to change if he were brave enough to persue the woman he loves.

I am seriously unhappy at how isolated they have made Felicity. I want some Diggle/Felicity friendship time so that Felicity has more than love interests in her life. I'd also like to get more insight into how she feeling about things through conversations with people who aren't love interests.

Edited November 20, 2014 by Luckylyn

tv echo · November 20, 2014

As I said in my episode review, I don't understand Oliver's position. In the first episode of this season, he was perfectly willing to go on a date with Felicity. But then he failed to check for a tracker while in the field as the Arrow. So he decides that he can't be both Oliver and the Arrow - meaning he can't be in a romantic relationship with Felicity because it would distract him from his mission. But in last night's episode, not being in a relationship with Felicity and watching her go on a date with Ray was distracting him while he was in the field as the Arrow and hurting his effectiveness (as Diggle indicated to Felicity). So Oliver's distracted either way. He was only distracted in the first episode because it was their first date. Once they settled into a solid relationship, he would be less distracted than watching her get involved with someone else.

apinknightmare · November 20, 2014

I think him realizing that he's distracted either way is the point, though. He followed Diggle's advice and went to her because like Digg said - he knows he made the wrong choice (although I think his initial reaction to the tracker was not only because he was distracted, but because he was SO distracted that he led someone right to them and could've gotten them both killed). I wish he would've said something to her in her office, but I get being stunned and hurt and walking away being his first instinct. I know it would be tropey and expected to drag it out, but I wonder if he actually does confess his feelings to her in 3x09, and that's the "best Olicity moment" he teased on the after show? Of course, then he goes away, so that's unfortunate, but it would be out there when he comes back.

Edited November 20, 2014 by apinknightmare

chaos is welcome · November 20, 2014

Yes but again, the cruelty of "I love you, I love you, I love you....going to the LOA now, bye." To a girl who has already been horribly abandoned 2x. To a girl who basically told you she cares about you so much, it hurts her to even THINK about losing you.

My favorite relationship right now is probably Oliver/Roy. It's glorious to watch Oliver NOT shut himself off, and keep Roy from doing the same. Such growth it shows.

Edited November 20, 2014 by chaos is welcome

tv echo · November 20, 2014

Regarding some online criticism of Felicity this season... In the past two years, here's the number of people that each character has had sex with (present day, excluding flashbacks):

Oliver - 5 (McKenna, Helena, Laurel, Sara, Isabel)
Laurel - 2 (Tommy, Oliver)
Diggle - 2 (Carly, Lyla)

Sara - 2 (Nyssa, Oliver)
Thea - 1 (Roy)
Roy - 1 (Thea)

Tommy - 1 (Laurel)
Felicity - 0

I think Felicity is entitled to two or three measly kisses this season.

[CORRECTED AND UPDATED - thanks, chaos is welcome]

Edited November 20, 2014 by tv echo

chaos is welcome · November 20, 2014

Regarding some online criticism of Felicity this season... In the past two years, here's the number of people that each character has had sex with (present day, excluding flashbacks):

Oliver - 4 (McKenna, Laurel, Sara, Isabel)

Laurel - 2 (Tommy, Oliver)

Diggle - 2 (Carly, Lyla)

Thea - 1 (Roy)

Roy - 1 (Thea)

Felicity - 0

I think Felicity is entitled to two measly kisses this season.

5 for Oliver, don't forget huntress!!!!

blixie · November 20, 2014

with some dates and flirting but not actually more than that.

I read producer interviews and spoilers and never thought it would amount to more than that. He's here to be the freaking Atom, he's here to be Oliver's rival in all things, to aggravate him and to motivate him. And probably to help with Ra's, whether he's full on TINY atom or not.

I think him realizing that he's distracted either way is the point, though.

Eh, I don't t think Diggle drawing him a map and kicking his ass out the door qualifies as realizing a damn thing, it's worse that he didn't follow through. He went there to speak his mind and punked out like he always does.

That's how I see it. Oliver is the obstacle to he and Feliciy being together and no one else.

Yup, that speech he gave to Cupid with Felicity on the coms? He can fuck off, like all the way off. And it takes a special kind of stupid to have this whole epiphany post drug does, wherein you realize you are your own worst enemy and you decide you're going to continue to be just exactly that. I can't empathize with someone this fucking clueless, I really just...can't. And I've 23 more episodes of this type of martyrtastic bs vis a vis Felicity to look forward to? UGH.

quarks · November 20, 2014

Having critiqued the show for going the cliched route with Oliver deciding that yes, yes, he could tell Felicity how he felt/fight for her, only to show up to find her kissing Ray, I do want to note that the show is - somewhat - avoiding the usual cliches with the Temporary Love Interest.

Granted, in many ways, Ray does fit every cliche in this category. For instance, the Temporary Love Interest is usually connected only to the Girl/Guy - friendly interactions with other cast members, maybe, but nothing beyond that, allowing the character to exit the show quickly without impacting anyone else. (See Castle, Bones, Friends, New Girl, The Mindy Project, Cheers and at least fifty other shows.) Arrow has dialed this up to eleven; so far, Ray has only interacted with Felicity and to a much lesser extent Oliver and her mother, never even interacting with the rest of the cast. The Temporary Love Interest is also often wealthy and generous: again, dialed up to eleven here, what with the giving the free energy away and $10 million necklaces even if they are just rented and so on. They're meant to be difficult to resist.

And yet against this, Arrow is telling us, in script, that Ray is a stalker, and implying that Felicity has gone from clearly seeing this (in script) to ignoring it/being unable to see it because of unstated fury at Oliver and feeling a certain relief that at least one guy out there isn't either kidnapping her/her mother or saying he loves her but not enough to be with her. Beyond that, though, the show is also making it clear that Ray is keeping one hell of a secret from her. Sure, she's also keeping one hell of a secret from him, but the fact remains: the show is doing something really strange here: having Ray be the perfect if somewhat creepy dude in 40 minutes of the episode only to reveal that he's hiding one major secret.

So this is an interesting play on the trope, and I think this ambiguity is deliberate. Mostly because three of the four EPs are also over on the Flash, and over there, the EPs are playing the Temporary Love Interest/Romantic Rival almost absolutely straight with Eddie/Iris. Which is part of what is convincing me that there's something else going on over here, as if the massive Important Theme Music and computer holograms weren't enough of an indication. Hoping this plays out in an interesting way.

JJ928 · November 20, 2014

Regarding some online criticism of Felicity this season... In the past two years, here's the number of people that each character has had sex with (present day, excluding flashbacks):

Oliver - 4 (McKenna, Laurel, Sara, Isabel)

Laurel - 2 (Tommy, Oliver)

Diggle - 2 (Carly, Lyla)

Thea - 1 (Roy)

Roy - 1 (Thea)

Felicity - 0

I think Felicity is entitled to two measly kisses this season.

Thank you! I get so tired of this double standard. As much as I loved Sara, no one was making a big deal about Oliver parading his relationship in front of Felicity last year. Yeah, Sara got some flak but Oliver, for the most part, got off scot-free. Plus, he knew Felicity had feelings for him, he gave her that whole speech in 2x06, only to hook up with Sara later.

Yes, I feel bad for Oliver & I want Oliver/Felicity to work it out. However, I don't blame Felicity for accepting Palmer (regardless of how creepy he is), after hearing Oliver once again reiterate that he can't be with her. Ray is a rebound, she's hurting and she's trying to move forward. They'll work it out eventually but Felicity is allowed to try and move on. She's not an extension of Oliver, she's not perfect, and she's her own person... sometimes it feels like people forget that.

apinknightmare · November 20, 2014

Yes but again, the cruelty of "I love you, I love you, I love you....going to the LOA now, bye." To a girl who has already been horribly abandoned 2x. To a girl who basically told you she cares about you so much, it hurts her to even THINK about losing you.

Yeah, but we don't know exactly how that's going to shake out. Maybe he leaves voluntarily - maybe he doesn't. Maybe he thinks it's going to be the very last time he gets to tell her.

KenyaJ · November 20, 2014

Yes, I feel bad for Oliver & I want Oliver/Felicity to work it out. However, I don't blame Felicity for accepting Palmer (regardless of how creepy he is), after hearing Oliver once again reiterate that he can't be with her. Ray is a rebound, she's hurting and she's trying to move forward. They'll work it out eventually but Felicity is allowed to try and move on. She's not an extension of Oliver, she's not perfect, and she's her own person... sometimes it feels like people forget that.

This. For all my issues with the execution of Raylicity, it doesn't bother me at all that she's trying to live her life, and in infuriates me that people want to brand her with a scarlet letter for having the temerity to kiss guys other than Oliver. This double standard is such bullshit.

Danny Franks · November 20, 2014

Thank you! I get so tired of this double standard. As much as I loved Sara, no one was making a big deal about Oliver parading his relationship in front of Felicity last year. Yeah, Sara got some flak but Oliver, for the most part, got off scot-free. Plus, he knew Felicity had feelings for him, he gave her that whole speech in 2x06, only to hook up with Sara later.

You're kidding, right? That was one of the biggest topics of conversation on TWoP during that period, as far as I can recall. That and the fury that many people had if Felicity looked like she might be even slightly jealous. Compare and contrast to the multitudes around the internet who seem overjoyed that Oliver had a tantrum after seeing Felicity kiss another guy. So yeah, double standards abound.

But, and I did say this weeks ago, this is what often seems to happen when 'ships hit the angst period of 'will they, won't they'. Fans pick one or the other, and side with them utterly, finding fault with everything the other does, and refusing to find fault with anything their character does. And to me, the writers make both characters dicks who have to act out of character to keep the story going. Which is why I don't bother watching such storylines any more.

JJ928 · November 20, 2014

You're kidding, right? That was one of the biggest topics of conversation on TWoP during that period, as far as I can recall. That and the fury that many people had if Felicity looked like she might be even slightly jealous. Compare and contrast to the multitudes around the internet who seem overjoyed that Oliver had a tantrum after seeing Felicity kiss another guy. So yeah, double standards abound.

But, and I did say this weeks ago, this is what often seems to happen when 'ships hit the angst period of 'will they, won't they'. Fans pick one or the other, and side with them utterly, finding fault with everything the other does, and refusing to find fault with anything their character does. And to me, the writers make both characters dicks who have to act out of character to keep the story going. Which is why I don't bother watching such storylines any more.

I have never been on TWOP but on other forums like reddit, people never made a big deal about Oliver's actions, only Sara's. Unfortunately, people are always going to pick sides but calling out Felicity for kissing 3 men in two years is bullshit. It's a huge double standard that is normally only applied to women. I can sympathize with Felicity & Oliver, but I'm not going to demonize her for being a human being - just like I didn't with Oliver last year. This is what I am seeing a lot of at the moment. All of a sudden Oliver is an angel & Felicity is the whore of Starling. They're both damaged, and they're both at fault because they refuse to communicate. But I don't see anything wrong with her looking for comfort elsewhere, just like Oliver did last season.

ohjoy · November 20, 2014

I know it would be tropey and expected to drag it out, but I wonder if he actually does confess his feelings to her in 3x09, and that's the "best Olicity moment" he teased on the after show? Of course, then he goes away, so that's unfortunate, but it would be out there when he comes back.

Taking to the Speculation thread.

NumberCruncher · November 20, 2014

I sympathize with both Oliver and Felicity. I think they both have made and are making mistakes. Oliver obviously has made his bed so he can't expect Felicity to wait around for him forever, but I also think that Felicity is rebounding hard for a man who, based upon his questionable methods, no rational woman should trust just because he's a slightly more nerdy version of Oliver. That being said, slut-shaming has happened with both genders on the show. The difference, however, is the strange way the audience has done it. The general reaction to Oliver banging anyone he couldn't be tied to genetically over the first 2 season was met with acceptable and humor because of his comic book reputation while Felicity (who has yet to do anything beyond spit swapping) is already being called a slut. Neither reaction is really appropriate, of course, but it's interesting the degree to which male and female characters are labeled based on their respective actions.

Edited November 20, 2014 by NumberCruncher

Password · November 20, 2014

It's weird for me Oliver and Sara getting back together was far more about Laurel than Felicity. I feel like Felicity was an unfortunate consequence, not the main gripe. It sunk the Lauriver ship in my mind, whether or not it did on the show, I didn't care. I was so annoyed and frustrated at Oliver and Sara in ToD, I felt it was worse for Sara because hello, sister? But I was just as snorted off with Oliver because talk about several steps (years) back. The "comfort" aspect of it now shines though actually, but I still feel given the HISTORY the two of them had, it was all very bad taste indeed. If anything if Oliver and Sara were just about to lunge, then Oliver said "no" I would've fallen in love with him.

Baring that in mind I don't like the thought of Oliver "deserving" this heartache. I feel he made his bed now he has to sleep in it, thorny roses and all. But I have had quite enough of Oliver's heart being broken through his life experiences. This too shall pass, and it'll be painful, but I only hope the pay off is worth me getting annoyed at the writers for thinking stripping a man of most of his life will help him grow.

Danny Franks · November 20, 2014

I complained about Oliver/Sara at the time for several reasons. I'll see if I can remember them all:

1. Because I just didn't see where it came from, and it did feel totally unearned and unbuilt. They went from platonic to fucking like bunnies in the blink of an eye, and it felt like the writers were just stuck in the mode of 'hot female guest star? Oliver's gotta fuck her.'

2. The way it played out made it look like Sara was doing it at least partly because Laurel was a bitch to her. The idea of her thinking, 'I'll pay her back by screwing Oliver' was one of the grosser aspects of the Sister Swapping Saga.

3. I just didn't think it was necessary. There was nothing that happened in the show that couldn't have happened otherwise, if Oliver and Sara were just friends. A friendship that felt far more real than their romance did, and a friendship based on how much they identify with one another.

4. It actually undermined that friendship a little, in my view. I understand the idea that they can sleep together and have it be almost recreational, they're two hot, physical people. But that was never how it was presented. If it had been, I probably would have been less irritated with it.

5. This is after the fact, but ultimately it told us nothing we didn't already know about either character, about how they handle relationships, about their wants and needs, about how Oliver might try to find a way to balance his two identities. It was a complete waste of time.

How it affected Felicity didn't really factor in at all, because I thought the main thrust of it was that Felicity was out of sorts because there was someone new in the Arrow Cave, who seemed to have so much more in common with Oliver (and Diggle) than she did, and someone who seemed so effortlessly capable and impressive. Again, that wouldn't have been much different, in my view, if Oliver and Sara had just been friends.

I don't think Oliver set out to make Felicity jealous, because why would he? What purpose would that serve? The trouble is, jealousy storylines only really work if one party is suddenly less observant and bright than usual, to allow for it. So Oliver didn't notice Felicity was bent out of shape because the storyline required him not to. Again, one of the many, many reasons why I hate contrived angst narratives.

strikera0 · November 20, 2014

Thank you! I get so tired of this double standard. As much as I loved Sara, no one was making a big deal about Oliver parading his relationship in front of Felicity last year. Yeah, Sara got some flak but Oliver, for the most part, got off scot-free. Plus, he knew Felicity had feelings for him, he gave her that whole speech in 2x06, only to hook up with Sara later.

That's not how I remember it. The Oliver-hate after he hooked up with Sara was very wide-spread among the shipper fandom - so much so that many shippers were rooting for Slade to destroy him. And the Sara-hate was another 10 times worse. It was ridiculous.

BkWurm1 · November 21, 2014

And yet against this, Arrow is telling us, in script, that Ray is a stalker, and implying that Felicity has gone from clearly seeing this (in script) to ignoring it/being unable to see it because of unstated fury at Oliver and feeling a certain relief that at least one guy out there isn't either kidnapping her/her mother or saying he loves her but not enough to be with her. Beyond that, though, the show is also making it clear that Ray is keeping one hell of a secret from her. Sure, she's also keeping one hell of a secret from him, but the fact remains: the show is doing something really strange here: having Ray be the perfect if somewhat creepy dude in 40 minutes of the episode only to reveal that he's hiding one major secret.

To be fair, didn't Felicity only accuse him of being a stalker when he showed up at the hospital? And also, while she labeled his behavior as borderline stalker, IMO I have not seen anything that made me think Felicity actually thought or thinks of his actions and behavior as actually threatening. Maddening and frustrating, but not something that she's even all that upset about. She's not IMO hiding her head in the sands or ignoring Ray's bad behavior, she IMO doesn't find his behavior malevolent or suspect and again, not because she just isn't willing to see it, but because it's not actually there. Once she accepted the job, she seems to have accepted that his trouble with boundaries isn't a warning sign, just an eccentricity. She was more confused and embarrassed when he showed up at her house and met her mom than worried or upset.

Yes, the show has been consistently telling us that there is more to Ray than meets the eye, but the creepy stalker vibe is IMO left over from his over the top BUSINESS pursuit of her and BR's crazy eyes, not so much his actions or Felicity's reactions. I can't buy that the show is tying to label him a stalker in any real serious intent. I don't think the subtext is being written in. I do think that people have a right to react to him any way they want, but I don't believe it's the shows intentions and I also think that now that we know the character better, his stranger actions make sense for the character.

I make the distinction because with Laurel we would be told she's this great human being and then be shown her doing some seriously shady things or just behaving in a way that contradicted the character assessment other characters would make of her. WIth Ray, what we've seen matches what we've been told I(with the exception of why Felicity would now be believing so wholeheartedly in him. His actions and what he has said about his actions match, we were just robbed of seeing why Felicity now believes in him) Again, I think anyone can still freely not like him, but I think his character isn't at odds with his characteristics.

Edited November 21, 2014 by BkWurm1

BkWurm1 · November 21, 2014

Ok, now that I got the Ray stuff out of the way, the reason I actually came to the relationships thread was because it occurred to me (and yes I'm slow) that the Felicity that we've been seeing crying so often on our screens hasn't been crying just because she's upset with her mom or because her past has come back to haunt her or even just because she's sad about Sara's death; Felicity has been morning her lost relationship with Oliver.

Someone spoke about wishing we could see into her cracks every once and a while to remind the viewers how much she has been struggling with Oliver's maybes and it occurred to me, all her uncharacteristic breakdowns, they all are cracks in her composure. For at least two months she's been grieving openly and I didn't make the connection. She's still grieving but the tears can only come so many times before they stop being a relief and instead become a reminder of her heartache.

Because Felicity has refused to outwardly wallow and she has been so focused burying her heart and head in work and in keeping up "normal", I think I failed to see her pain and suffering as clearly as I've seen Oliver's. :(

wonderwall · November 21, 2014

You know what will be glorious to see? Oliver finally fighting for Felicity, finally appreciating her, finally fighting for a future he wants with Felicity...

That will be amazing

quarks · November 21, 2014

To be fair, didn't Felicity only accuse him of being a stalker when he showed up at the hospital?

No. She brought it up in the very next episode, and was upset enough about his behavior that she quit. She only returned after Oliver's very depressing "I'm going to die down here," speech and Sara's "funeral." She went through a lot of emotions when he showed up at her house, including embarrassment over her mother, but shock was among them.

I'm willing to buy that Felicity is pretty overwhelmed with emotions at this point - the guy she's in love with keeps saying he cares about her/wants her but won't make a move; her fellow vigilante friend was just killed and the murderer is still out there; the perfect guy for her is fixated on another lovely, charming, woman; she has a new job with major responsibilities, while still trying to hold on to her old job; she and her mother were recently kidnapped by her ex; and she doesn't have a fern in her office which is very sad. So I can see her not thinking clearly - not to mention rebound, rebound, rebound.

What I'm less clear is what's going on with Ray. On the one hand, it definitely makes sense to have him not be perfect for Felicity, so that we'll still cheer on Oliver and Felicity even though Oliver keeps friendzoning her. On the other hand, this last episode seemed to want to present him as perfect for Felicity, especially in that speech to the miners. Sure, part of this is to increase suspense for Oliver/Felicity - if Ray isn't a real alternative, then of course Felicity will pick the brooding guy. And yet the show keeps showing him with a Dark Secret.

In general, I love ambiguous characters - Blood, so good on the surface, so evil beneath, so almost redeemed at the end - was a lot of fun, as is Malcolm "Sure, destroying most of a city area sounds bad, but I promise you, all for the best!" And I'm having a lot of fun with whatever is up with Wells over on Flash. If that's what the show is going for, then it's succeeding. Having said that, I'm pretty sure that we are meant to be uncertain about whatever Wells is up to. I think we are meant to think that Ray is a good guy - and yet. Mixed messages.

For what it's worth, the non comic book readers I've talked to are convinced that Ray is going to be a villain. Granted, Walter and Tommy were also originally introduced as a potential villains, and ended up being good guys, so the show can certainly do that too. Or the show can decide that having turned the presumed villain Tommy Merlyn into a hero, it can easily turn the presumed hero Ray Palmer into a villain. Interesting to see where this is going. At the least, Ray has generated a lot of conversation.

Tangerine · November 21, 2014

Felicity and Ray have known each other for 2 months now? Objectively that's not a long time. They've probably spent a lot of hours working together and I know that everything has to be faster in TV land, but we didn't even see a hint of her admiring his intelligence or his vision in any of their previous interactions? When he showed up at her place to talk about co-generation, all I got was mild irritation.

I know TPTB have talked about this cool thing they're trying to do with Ray, but so far all I see is them using him as love interest for Felicity. And to me, you have to introduce the character as a character first before you introduce them as a love interest for the relationship to be successful and I'm not sure they've done that.

ETA: Did anybody else notice that the fern was totally bathed in a stream of light behind Oliver and Felicity when they first discovered Carrie's identity? I suppose that gives me more reason to believe that they'll be end game.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Tangerine

apinknightmare · November 21, 2014

I know TPTB have talked about this cool thing they're trying to do with Ray, but so far all I see is them using him as love interest for Felicity. And to me, you have to introduce the character as a character first before you introduce them as a love interest for the relationship to be successful and I'm not sure they've done that.

I get the feeling that they don't really care about being successful as far as selling the Ray and Felicity relationship in-show goes. People seemed to be worried that the point of Ray would be to steer the ship over to the Raylicity side so the EPs could push Oliver and Laurel back together, but that doesn't seem to be the case at all (not that I thought it would be).

Edited November 21, 2014 by apinknightmare

statsgirl · November 21, 2014

I think Felicity was interested in his plan to give the excess energy back to Starling City for free. That's the sort of thing she would get behind, along with rebranding the city to make it better. That's the reasoning that got her on board with Oliver originally, punish the bad guys and make Starling a better place for everyone. And once she got over his inappropriateness, she got the game plan. (He's still no Sheldon Cooper though.)

I don't think they're serious about Raylicity, no matter how many times the EPs talk up their "incredible chemistry". Telling her he wanted it to be platonic and walking away from her while she's still up for the kissing showed that she's not his #1 agenda item. He's just there because MG thinks it's great to stall Olicity as long as he can.

quarks · November 21, 2014

I'm not even sure that Ray is intended to stall Oliver/Felicity that long. This one episode, yes, so everyone can focus on Flash things next episode. And maybe more, but then again, maybe not. After all, he did just walk out on her, and he seems a lot more interested in dwarf star stuff than in Felicity. Completely coincidentally, I expect the dwarf star stuff is also what a lot of the fanbase is more interested in. I may not be thrilled with Ray but the suit looked pretty cool and I want to know what it does. Smash things into tiny atoms? Shield someone against a nuclear blast? Fuse atoms together? (Yes, yes, I know on that last one, but look at what the supposed scientists are babbling over on Flash.) Summon kangaroos? Destroy obnoxious DJs? Ok, I guess with that last one we can only hope.

But even if this plays out the way Oliver/Sara did last season, that, too, was short, and did not exactly focus on that relationship. This seems similar. The relationship focus is on Oliver/Felicity, not Ray/Felicity.

Edited November 21, 2014 by quarks

blixie · November 21, 2014

And I also think that he realizes that this is more than him not being ready for relationships. We know he's not, and he knows he's not, but I think it goes a bit further: he knows he's not ready to have the kind of relatioship with Felicity that HE WANTS TO HAVE. Which is full trust full disclosure all in all feelings ever partners in life and in superheroing for the rest of their lives. But hey, I'm still good with the fact that he wants that, even if he believes he doesn't deserve it.

Replying to dancingnancy here.

First let me make my biases clear: I'm not a fan of Oliver. I like him pretty much only in relationship to three people: Thea, Diggle, and Felicity. Okay three ALIVE people, I loved him with Sara, The Real Canary Realness.

So that bias out of the way, I simply have not seen that what Oliver believes about Olicity or relationships in general is that he doesn't deserve them.What he has always framed it as, and what I think he truly does believe it to be, is that he's not capable of them. I've used a line from Sex, Lies, and Videotape (You just can't walk up to her and show her you've changed....like it's some gift or somethin') for him so often because he's SO MUCH like Graham in that movie. Like Graham, Oliver used to Lie and use Women for sex, now he has to Lie to everyone to be a Hero. Like Graham, he *can not* have a relationship, but only because he *will not* have a relationship, like Graham he wants to control and compartmentalize. And like Graham he falsely believes this is making him a better more whole, or at least more emotionally ethical person. When really it just makes him a pathetic asshole, hiding from the world, and certainly from real intimacy.

I also can't buy this whole the life he wants to have with Felicity? What is it specifically with Felicity that he can not have?That he does not ALREADY have? If we accept Oliver IS happy with being The Arrow, being a hero, that he values it in and of itself, well Felicity is ALREADY a part of that, he is ALREADY in love with her, he is DISTRACTED by his feelings with her or without. He needs to man up, and realize we control our own scripts, he can *have* whatever life he CHOOSES to have, babies and fences and lairs and arrows all with partner and wife Felicity and friends and allies like Aresenal, Real Canary Realness, and the rest of the JL. I'm just about out of patience with him getting there.

I resent having to watch him relearn all the stuff he learned over two seasons squished into three months just so they can delay Olicity, but maybe by some miracle of God he'll manage to declare himself to Felicity wholly and unambiguously before the winter break, and without some further contrivance to keep them apart.

Danny Franks · November 21, 2014

I resent having to watch him relearn all the stuff he learned over two seasons squished into three months just so they can delay Olicity, but maybe by some miracle of God he'll manage to declare himself to Felicity wholly and unambiguously before the winter break, and without some further contrivance to keep them apart.

On their second real date, Felicity stubs her toe on a loose step and yelps about it, which sets Oliver right back to realising he can never be with her, because the Arrow would never let such shoddy workmanship continue in his city, if he was on his game.

On their third real date, eighteen months later, she gets a paper cut from the menu and then... well... some poor restaurateur is getting a nighttime, 'you have failed this city' visit. But Felicity Smoak is getting no nighttime visits at all. Because she wouldn't be safe.

wonderwall · November 21, 2014

I may be in the minority here but reading some of the responses to season 3, I kind of find it surprising that some people think that the writers are sort of ruining Oliver/Felicity? I mean I get it. The main draw to these two is that they were uncomplicated, there was little drama... and to be honest, I thought that too. But now here I am thinking, that's just bs. Oliver is a man that's so complicated that if he ever were to be with someone romantically, it would also be complicated because Oliver doesn't even know what he wants yet.

I feel like the writers got plenty of things wrong in season 3, but Oliver/Felicity isn't really one of them. I think that the second that Oliver recognized his feelings towards her, it was going to be complicated because Oliver hasn't even come to terms with who he is and what he's done in order to survive. If Oliver and Felicity didn't go on that date in episode 1, I don't think that we would've seen the drama between them. But they did because Oliver wanted to take that leap of faith, but then they both stumbled and fell. Now we're watching both Oliver and Felicity gather their bearings and try to get back up. Yes, it's painful to watch but it's just part of the process to help Oliver become emotionally stronger, to help Felicity become more independent, to help their relationship grow stronger.

Their relationship is being tested right now and I find it refreshing to see a show where two characters (who have just undergone heartbreak) don't have petty fights, where they don't act like children. Both Oliver and Felicity are handling things like adults. Yes, they still have feelings for each other, but they won't let that get in the way of their mission, their purpose. This just goes to show that if they do get back together stronger as individuals, their relationship will probably last until someone dies.

While, yes, I hoped that Oliver/Felicity remained uncomplicated, I can see why they wouldn't be. How could a relationship be uncomplicated if one of the participants in said relationship is more complicated than rocket science? Answer, it can't.

While I wish Ray was less creepy and an actual viable love interest for Felicity, I'm happy with Oliver/Felicity's trajectory this season. However, this doesn't mean that the writers can't screw it up monumentally after the midseason finale. Ugh I hope they don't screw this up.

Edited November 21, 2014 by wonderwall

BkWurm1 · November 21, 2014

The main draw to these two is that they were uncomplicated, there was little drama... and to be honest, I thought that too. But now here I am thinking, that's just bs. Oliver is a man that's so complicated that if he ever were to be with someone romantically, it would also be complicated because Oliver doesn't even know what he wants yet.

I feel like the writers got plenty of things wrong in season 3, but Oliver/Felicity isn't really one of them. I think that the second that Oliver recognized his feelings towards her, it was going to be complicated because Oliver hasn't even come to terms with who he is and what he's done in order to survive.

I think for me, it's the timing of the story lines that is so disappointing. First of all, while as a shipper, I've been watching these two get closer and closer, I don't think the generic audience has had the same insight and I think as a whole, all viewers would have gained from watching a more overt version of their growing romantic connection aka we were robbed of all the last five months of growing happiness. Maybe the show runners didn't think that would be interesting, personally I think it would have made for much more watchable TV to see the team win for a while as they help put their city back in order.

These would have been the episode where VoTW would have worked great. Showcase the fun and the adventure of the core team, working the newbies into the fold and toss out a few breadcrumbs foreshadowing the darker future. I'm not even talking about real time of 5 to 6 months of good times, even 3 or 4 episodes would have buoyed me up to withstand the absolute soul crushing misery that most of the season's episodes have been. Even ones I loved like SOoFS had heaps of angst.

Losing Sara and the implosion of Olicity at the same time has been brutal and while I can understand the dramatic desire to stack these two issues on top of each other, I think the show runners have made Season 3 too grim all around. They haven't even been using the glorious crazy of Malcolm and Thea to add in those much needed lighter moments. They've relied on a brand new character that no one is invested in to lighten the mood but the timing again was poor and while I never really saw Ray as this deviant stalker, he was more of an irritant than an amusement when he first popped up.

So yes, I agree that any real advancement of Olicity would trigger lots of complications, but twenty minutes of smiles isn't enough to make all the painful stuff tolerable. In this way, by rushing to the break up, I think they are doing the relationship a disservice. There is a loss of balance in the telling of the story. It's not so much what or why they are doing to Olicity that is seriously testing my patience but the when and where. I feel beaten up as a viewer losing that emotional connection to the team right when the show needs it most.

I think also the indication that none of this pain is going to end anytime soon is also seriously messing with my perception of everything. It feels like it's never going to end and it takes so much effort not to feel crushed beneath the storylines. Watching hurts and It's not a case of it hurts so good, it just hurts.

Edited November 21, 2014 by BkWurm1

wonderwall · November 21, 2014

I feel as though every relationship on this show suffered because of the 5 month jump, not just Oliver/Felicity. In the comics we saw a lot of things that should've been seen on screen. Laurel being NICE to the team, Felicity/Oliver flirting, Roy training/bonding with Oliver and the rest of the team... I'm sure there's more but yeah there are a lot of integral moments that would've made the season easier to swallow, alas it is what it is.

The only thing I can hope for is that they don't trash the relationship. Yes, the timing is not right, but what's done is done so the best thing I can hope for is that Oliver/Felicity act mature about it.

BkWurm1 · November 21, 2014

I feel as though every relationship on this show suffered because of the 5 month jump, not just Oliver/Felicity. In the comics we saw a lot of things that should've been seen on screen. Laurel being NICE to the team, Felicity/Oliver flirting, Roy training/bonding with Oliver and the rest of the team... I'm sure there's more but yeah there are a lot of integral moments that would've made the season easier to swallow, alas it is what it is.

The only thing I can hope for is that they don't trash the relationship. Yes, the timing is not right, but what's done is done so the best thing I can hope for is that Oliver/Felicity act mature about it.

Very good point about how all the characters and relationships have suffered. In writing classes they often talk about jumping as far forward into the meat of a story as possible, meaning you should pick up the tale when the spirited heroine boards the ship bound for the South Seas that is then attacked by pirates, not when she's four and first starts raising chickens to start raising money for her dream trip.

I think Arrow jumped too far forward.

November 22, 2014

I'm with @BkWurm1. It's not that they are ruining Oliver/Felicity but they have rushed them which doesn't help. It's strange because I can see the reasons why they did what they did with Olicity in 301 and what GB said about the episode not really being about 'them' but about the s2 finale. They were basically cleaning up the doubts that people had about the truth of Oliver's 'I love you.' They had to get that out of the way first before they could go any further. 301 was basically a huge sign that said 'Oliver loves Felicity. End of discussion. Let's move on please.'

That said, I think they went too far the other way. We missed out on five months of relationship building and flirting and the two of them slowly edging closer to each other which would have been fun to watch. And I agree with @wonderwall in that every relationship has suffered there too - Roy/Oliver, Roy/Team Arrow, Laurel/Team Arrow.

But I can also see that they needed to up the emotional stakes/pain for Olicity which is why we had the scenes of Oliver looking all longingly at Felicity with baby Digglet and all the things he wants but doesn't think he could have. I don't know if they could have been so bold in that direction if O/F were still at their flirting stage. So I understand from a story arc perspective but it's not the best from a shipper/viewer enjoyment perspective.

I'm actually fine with Oliver and Felicity being apart for a while longer. I've always thought Oliver needs to sort his head out a bit more but my only issue is what they're doing with Ray. He's not the person I envisioned as a temporary foil for Oliver/Olicity which makes this whole arc off-putting to me right now. I just hope the end justifies the means because this journey is not an enjoyable one. 307 wasn't the good 'rub your hands together, now we're talking' kind of angst that I usually like. It was just angst and it was painful to watch.

Edited November 22, 2014 by Guest

Genki · November 22, 2014

I agree with both @wonderwall & @BkWurm1.

It's is definitely moving Felicity and Oliver into the right space for a relationship. Oliver mentally & emotionally and Felicity as a character overall. But the timing tied to the rest of the storylines has just made everything a bit too painful to endure. I was dreading this week's episode.

From a meta perspective when Laurel was the LI she was introduced as independent crusader, she had friends, family and an established backstory and motivation. Ignoring the sister-swapping, the power dynamic between her and Oliver character-wise was fairly even, especially with the implications she would become the Black Canary and his crime fighting partner.

Enter Felicity an easter egg with potential reoccurrence. She brought the lightness and jokes but was an employee of Oliver's Family's company, she called him her boss. Season 2 she literally becomes his employee and sacrifices her career for Oliver (For me no big deal, because I felt like her passion was hacking and she got to do that at her night jobs so she accepted the secret identity for her day job, but for other it is a big issue). Oliver calls her a partner, but her skill is not to be "Kick Ass" in costume, she is the info gatherer, the tech support, the field monitor, so it can lead to the perception she is weak. From a LI perspective all this is a gap from where Laurel was when the show started out.

So this year, I feel they are emphasising her skills, expanding her backstory and family, giving her friends, I'm count the Flash mob here (I hope for Thea/Felicity).

Also I think they are taking away potential criticism for when they do get Olicity together.

"She is Oliver cheerleader" - She not indulging Oliver in his Manpain, he made a choice and so did she

"She is Oliver's subordinate" - She doesn't work for Oliver anymore, her career is flourishing and establishing that she is more qualified to run QC (or whatever form it may take in the future)

"Her whole world revolves around Oliver" - see previous point plus back story established

"She's weak" - girl just saved herself 2 episodes ago and everyone relies on her as shown in Corte Maltese

"She just sits around pining for Oliver" - She is definitely not doing that (frankly I would like to see more into her head to reassure my shipper heart)

"He's a manwhore" - Oliver is celibate

I don't like some of the execution, I would like to see some conflict about PT and the loss of QC, I don't like Ray and I don't see chemistry with Ray (would have preferred causal dating or Barry/Felicity). They need to show, that at the end of the day, the connection between Oliver and Felicity is strong. I'm not sure if the red/blue thing is deliberate so stronger scenes like a scene at the end of 3.02 would have been better.

And I can't emphasise enough how much we should have seen the 5 month flirty flirt on-screen!! They should have pulled the can't be together trigger much later than E1.

And as @wonderwall has stated there are so many relationships suffering, but for me, Olicity is the piece that makes "the whole greater than the Sum of parts" with regards to Arrow.

Edited November 22, 2014 by Genki

BumpSetSpike · November 22, 2014

And I can't emphasise enough how much we should have seen the 5 month flirty flirt on-screen!! They should have pulled the can't be together trigger much later than E1.

I totally agree. That is by far my biggest disappointment on the way they handled "Olicity." Part of the fun of shipping is to see the slow burn in action so when the characters do get together, it is magic/chemistry. But to do it all in one episode - let's go on a date, let's have hell break loose on that date, let's kill the relationship so Oliver can have more loss in his life (this time not a death but we get Sara for that in E2), and let him be dark and unhappy again. Just too much.

I actually don't mind Ray. He is socially awkward when it comes to personal relationships, doesn't always say the right things with women, but he seems to have so much enthusiasm for whatever it is he is putting together. I know they won't last, but I enjoy seeing a character respect Felicity as a woman and not just as a member of the save-the-world team.

wonderwall · November 22, 2014

So a fanfic writer (louBlue) had a fantastic analysis of Oliver/Felicity and I wanted to share (source):

Okay, so, I'm just going to take a minute here and talk about the show again. It's basically just a few thoughts about the last episode – make of it what you will… a pashmina, a jaunty hat, a feather boa… whatever tickles your fancy… or just ignore it completely – probably the best thing. Cupid was a tough episode, I admit that but I have to say, I'm 10000% on Felicity's side with this one. She is doing absolutely the right thing and I have to take my hat off to the writers in actually giving a real backbone and sense of self-worth to the love interest of a super hero. A lot of the time they're there to be a foil, to be periodically rescued and inspire the hero to be the best he can be. Yeah, great, but that makes it all about the hero. What about the actual love interest? So often they end up being defined by their love for the hero. Why limit them like that? It's why they always come across as secondary characters in a lot of comic books. Sure, they often give them smarts and gumption and feistiness but a beating heart, a sense of who they are outside of the hero, not always so much. A lot of times they're there to inform the hero's journey. And yes, we're seeing that with Felicity but this season Felicity has become a whole lot more than that.

The way I see it, Felicity has given Oliver everything the last 2 years. She's been at his beck and call, she's given every waking moment to him and his crusade, she's supported him, encouraged him, had his back – without question, without hesitation. She always brought her A game for Oliver. And she wasn't looking for anything in return. There were no strings. Sure, I'm sure she wondered 'what if' but Felicity was willing to give her all, knowing that there was no future for her and Oliver.

And then what happened… oh yeah, Oliver dangled a future in front of her.

For a brief moment, what was in Felicity's head and heart was suddenly a reality. Oliver chose to cross that line, he's the one who opened that can of worms. Everything changed, because even though he tried to take back that hope, it was too late. Once something is seen, it can't be unseen and Oliver did that. He didn't intend to be cruel but it was. I don't hold it against him, he's genuinely torn up about it, he's not intentionally playing with Felicity's heart, just like she isn't intentionally playing with his.

So, now Felicity is faced with the reality of a man who could give her everything she ever wanted but won't let himself. It's Oliver's decision, she can't do squat about it. That old adage about you can't make someone else change but you can change yourself. Felicity couldn't force Oliver to rethink his reasoning, she just couldn't. So, the big decision – stay there with him and watch the man you love wait for death and die with him or choose life. Here's the thing – Oliver's wrong. He's wrong about thinking he has to compartmentalize Arrow and Oliver and that there is no real place for Oliver in the world anymore, only the Arrow. He's wrong. Diggle knows it, Felicity knows it and I have a feeling even Oliver knows it, deep down. Yes, Felicity loves Oliver but does love mean you have to agree and get on board with every dumb thing your loved one thinks or says? Of course not. Imagine if the person you love more than anyone else in the world suddenly came to you and said that they are no longer going to pay taxes because they don't like the guy running the country. Do you just go along with them and do what they do because you love them or do you still pay your taxes because, you know, it's the law and you don't want both of you to end up in jail.

Read more at the source listed above

So the mods said that this quote was too long :p Can't really deny it because it is. But you can definitely read it all at the source and I implore all of you to do so because it's SO WORTH THE READ.

Edited November 23, 2014 by wonderwall

November 22, 2014

^ That was awesome. It gave me a sense of renewed faith in what's happening. I'll never like Ray and I'll never like how happy Felicity was with the renaming of QC but I do understand that she's doing what she needs to do. And this person is right. Oliver needed to see that Felicity wasn't waiting around because as they are now, working together in the lair, he still had her even if he didn't really. Now he knows for sure she's not going to wait around and he's going to have to fight for her. Bring it!

statsgirl · November 22, 2014

As for Felicity being involved in reshaping QC with Ray – here's the thing, Oliver did to QC exactly what he did with Felicity – remember, on the stairs after Ray got the vote – he gave up.

That's a really good point.

We're getting it all from Oliver's perspective., I think Felicity is getting a bad deal from those people she cares most about.

One of the reasons I hate these stupid contrivances to keep the couple apart is because they inevitably make me dislike the characters I cared most about before. I'm not too fond of Oliver these days but my real anger is for Diggle this week.

I also feel like, in the breakup, Oliver got Diggle. :) Not completely, obviously, because Felicity and Diggle are friends, and he clearly loves her. But Oliver and Diggle were friends (or colleagues or co-conspirators or whatever) before Felicity came on the scene. So it makes sense to me that Diggle's priority (if you will) is Oliver. I wish there was someone like that for Felicity (Lyla, maybe? I would love that because she and Felicity are both awesome),

Oh totally Oliver got Diggle in the break-up, but Diggle didn't have to pick sides like that. While he was trying to get Felicity not to go to that dinner with Palmer, he could just have said "I know Oliver pushing you away is hurting you. Don't do anything you'll regret later because of that" just to let her know that he's knows this is hard on her too and to give her an opportunity to talk about it if she wanted. But he said nothing. Nada. And later, when the tears were in her eyes listening to Oliver tell Cupid he couldn't be with anyone, would it have killed him to give her a shoulder squeeze of support?

But more than that, I don't think Oliver the one suffering the most because he is buoyed by his self-righteous martyrdom, one of his less attractive qualities. He couldn't be with the woman he wants, he had to give her up because he has to save the city. Yes, it's hard, but a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do. He doesn't like it that Felicity is hurt along the way but that's the way life is when you're Oliver Queen the Arrow.

In Draw Back Your Bow, we saw Oliver suffering a lot, suffering because Felicity isn't there whenever he wants her to be for his cause even though he keeps pushing her away because of his pain. And we saw Diggle being caring and supportive to him four times in this episode, not to mention the fifth when he went to Felicity to plead Oliver's cause.

What did Felicity get? She got an awkward invite from a shirtless Palmer, a rejection from Oliver she told him it was just a business dinner (Do what you want) when she really wanted him to tell her that he cared about what she did, an interruption of her dinner to help Oliver, another major rejection from him when she went over after dinner to help only to hear him tell Cupid he can't be with anyone, and, after pulling herself together and going back to her office, a rejection from Ray who stops and walks away mid-kiss.

Oliver said to Diggle "I made a choice. So did she." But given his choice, for her it was more like what he'd said after killing the Count, there was no choice.

So we end the episode, Oliver having made a choice, surrounded by his good friends, in light and warmth. But they don't show us Felicity, alone in her office, trying to get some work done because there's no one for her to go home to or spend time with, probably trying to figure out how she got here when all she was trying to do was get some worthwhile attachments in her life.

Damn you, Diggle.

Chaser · November 22, 2014

And I'm angry about that Diggle/Felicity scene again. That hurt my heart.

I also want to mention that as much as Diggle was Oliver's friend first, it was only Diggle and Felicity when Oliver peaced out to the island for five months. I felt that did bring Diggle/Felicity closer, which we saw in S2. Its obviously lacking S3.

Edited November 22, 2014 by 10Eleven12

dtissagirl · November 22, 2014

ITA the entire romantic plot is full of contrivances. The one thing that bothered me the most about 307 is I felt the episode was deliberately stacked against Felicity. She's the one with something to lose now: she already lost Oliver, now the Arrow cave and Team Arrow are kind of at stake for her. Some of it is what statsgirl is talking about. Some of it I felt it was because they keep trying to frame Oliver's choice to be only the Arrow as righteous. And that's when they lose me, because not only we all know it's the wrong choice, but because Oliver has been actively taking steps towards NOT being the Arrow full time since 302, by reaching out to his friends and family. The only person he's still keeping at arms' length is Felicity. Took him all of 5 episodes.

It's as if the narrative has decided that "I can't be the Arrow and Oliver Queen at the same time" has been reduced to "I can't be the Arrow and be with Felicity at the same time". As if being Oliver = dating Felicity. And, hey, I'm all for Oliver doing some growing up before he's ready to be in a relationship, but I feel like -- because 1. everything is happening at warp speed this season, and 2. Sara's murder mystery has exactly zero stakes in his narrative development [lol] -- as of 307, Oliver's in a much better head space than he was after the bomb in 301. He made amends with Thea; he and Roy are completely selling me on the bromance; Diggle is serving him some truth tea and Oliver's drinking it instead of biting Dig's head off... it's been like, two months, and *all* he's missing from turning into a real boy is Felicity.

But since they can't be together right now because ~reasons, they're stalling, by isolating Felicity in a storyarc with Ray that reeks of TEMPORARY COCKBLOCKER, PLEASE FAST FORWARD, and by making Oliver say stuff like "I need to be alone" [okay, Batman, do you want some cheese to go with your whine?] WHILE HE'S NOT ALONE. He's living with his sister and mentoring Roy and going to family dinner night at Dig and Lyla's. But because it's only November Sweeps, they need to milk us 'shipping suckers until February and/or May sweeps.

TL;DR, slow the fuck down with the character beats, Arrow, because you're kind of making a narrative lie out of your protagonist's main dilemma.

Edited November 22, 2014 by dancingnancy

statsgirl · November 22, 2014

as of 307, Oliver's in a much better head space than he was after the bomb in 301. He made amends with Thea; he and Roy are completely selling me on the bromance; Diggle is serving him some truth tea and Oliver's drinking it instead of biting Dig's head off... it's been like, two months, and *all* he's missing from turning into a real boy is Felicity.

Yeah, he's still lying to Thea but other than that, he's doing great emotionally except for Felicity. But a lot of the time it feels like he's using her as his punching bag for his martyrdom and projecting on to her "I could have had everything except I have to be a hero".

What works for Oliver is limbo, having Felicity by his side available whenever he wants her but no real relationship or emotional stuff, and if she's not, that's on her.

Another thing that bothered me about the episode is that this is the second time Diggle has pushed Oliver to do more than he wants to and it's rebounded on Felicity both times. In The Calm, Diggle was the one who pushed Oliver to go out on a date with Felicity when Oliver was still stalling on asking her. What happened is that Oliver did and it gave Felicity hope, and then Oliver grabbed the first chance that came up to push her away again, breaking her heart. In this episode, Diggle pushed Oliver to tell Felicity how he felt before someone else (Ray) got her and so Oliver went to her office and saw the kiss. Good thing Felicity didn't see him there but if the moment is carried through in the writing for the next episodes, Oliver is going to push her away even more now that he thinks she's with Ray.

I read a review of the episode whose writer said that Oliver doesn't need a shrink because he's got Diggle. Uh, no, part of being a shrink is knowing when to push and how much to push, and Diggle kind of stinks at that.

dtissagirl · November 22, 2014

I'm more annoyed at the writing for reducing Diggle to Relationship Councelor Sage Master than at Diggle himself. I don't think Diggle is wrong in telling Oliver to take a chance and have a relationship with Felicity. But I do agree that the narrative is framing it in a Team Oliver vs. Team Felicity way, and that so far it looks like Team Felicity is getting the short end of the stick.

And this is my least favorite kind of relationship stall tactics, because it makes characters look bad, it makes fandom start to take sides [and it always gets nasty], and it makes me lose respect for the writing, because it's been done twenty billion times in the last decade alone.

November 22, 2014

I don't actually see it as Oliver getting 'custody' of Diggle and Felicity being left out. I think if Felicity hadn't been on a work dinner with Ray in 307 then the invitation to dinner would have been extended her way too. I don't enjoy seeing Felicity removed from the team but this is a consequence of her storyline. Having a life outside of the lair means missing out on some things with the rest of the team and I think that is going to be part of her struggle.

I didn't like how Diggle was marriage counsellor because I think he's worth so much more than that but he's been where Oliver is now and he's through the other side and he knows that Oliver can be happy, if only he lets himself. So he pushes him a little. I also think Diggle was concerned about how Oliver's distractions/unhappiness over Felicity was affecting his ability to do his job as the Arrow, just as he was probably concerned that Felicity's issues in the 'Time of Death' episode was affecting her ability to work too which is why he was there for her when Oliver wasn't.

When I think of it in that cut and dry way, I can see that Diggle needed his team to be focused to do the task in hand and so he went to the root of the problem to try and fix it. Was it wrong to put that on Felicity? Absolutely. But I think he had good intentions.

Edited November 22, 2014 by Guest

Orion · November 22, 2014

My main problem with the romance side of this, other than they keep dropping it in one episode only to slam back and jump 3 steps in the next, is that the show is refusing to let Felicity have a conversation with anyone that explains her point of view. She told Oliver she wasn't going to wait for him and then the only other peak we have had at her feelings was on the Flash (grrr). If they would just give her a scene where she states how she feels I don't think you would have as much of the squabbling with the fans. Right now the show is asking people to put themselves in her position and imagine how she feels. I'm doing okay with that but a more complete story would have her turn to Diggle or even Roy and have her state how much Oliver hurt her and how she needs more, it puts them on more equal footing. But of course we have to focus on Oliver so we don't get that.

I'll defend Diggle in this last episode.

Diggle is happy in his relationship with Lyla. As far as his romantic life goes times are good. He sees these two people he cares about hurting. That they are both making the wrong decision and it is tearing them both up. This episode starts with Digg watching Oliver break an arrow with a hammer over Felicity and QC slipping away from him. Diggle asks if he is okay and stubborn Oliver answers yes. Diggle drops it. The next scene Oliver "forgets" that Felicity is away with Palmer and Diggle reminds him. He asks again if Oliver is okay but this time he pushes more, "I know this can't be easy with Felicity spending all this time with Palmer." Oliver, of course doubles down and says he's fine but now he's heading out in the field with his head not in the game (note to show please stop using this phrase). From Diggle's perspective he is trying to get Oliver to move, act on his feelings. Oliver thinks being with Felicity distracts him but in reality losing Felicity is distracting him and Diggle's job is to save Oliver from himself. "I'm not looking for anyone to save me Diggle." "No but you need someone to remind you of who you are and not this thing you are becoming." Diggle is reminding Oliver about who he is - a man that is hurting over losing the woman he loves.

So fine, Oliver won't listen, the next step is to try to get Felicity to move. He goes to her at QC and tells her that Oliver is torn up with her and Palmer, that he isn't focusing because of it and that that is dangerous. He's not trying to guilt her into this he is trying to open her eyes to how much Oliver cares. He wants Felicity to talk to Oliver. In Diggles mind (mine too) if those two idiots would just talk they could work this out. They could both be happy. But Felicity, rightly imo, says nope, if someone is going to break this stale mate it has to be Oliver. He doesn't push harder, he sees her point and gives her a kind smile then he leaves.

He's tried hinting and he's tried putting pressure but Oliver won't break. So now Diggle is going to push hard. He throws the name of the guy in Oliver's face. "You mean you need her to be anywhere but where Palmer is." Diggle - telling people what they don't want to hear but need to since 2012. This finally gets a reaction from Oliver. He looses his I'm fine and blows up. Yes, he's not happy, he isn't happy she is with him and he isn't happy she's moving on but Oliver made a choice. You can almost hear Diggle banging his head on the computer desks. But Diggle presses on, if Oliver wants Felicity happy he would just be with her. He's shoving Oliver toward the truth. If you care, if you love her like you say you do, like Diggle knows he does, you would be with her. Diggle is telling Oliver that he is the one keeping her from being happy right now. In other words Oliver you are hurting Felicity.

But then Oliver goes and tells Cupid that he has to be alone and Diggle watches Felicity tear up and then close down. Felicity told Diggle this has to be Oliver's move so he's not going to try to talk to her again so he tells Oliver that judging by Felicity's face she does not want to be alone. Better get your ass in gear Oliver because your girl is about to move on. And for reasons Oliver finally decides in that moment to act. Note to Diggle: next time talk faster or throw Oliver in a car so you can talk as you go.

He's not trying to make anyone feel bad or twist the knife in either of them. He's trying desperately to get one of them to act on how they feel so they can be happy. Diggle is trying to save them both by bringing them together. He knows they are both hurting and wants to help. Granted I think this would have worked so much better if these conversations were happening a little bit in each episode so it made sense that Oliver was being slowly worn down and shown what he should be doing. But the writers don't agree with me on how stories are suppose to be written so we get it all in one episode. I think Digg was back to being mentor, big brother and friend in this episode. It just didn't work because Oliver and Felicity are stupid idiots sometimes, but aren't we all.

In the end, Diggle gives Oliver something to do other than be alone in the Arrow cave. He's not excluding Felicity. Felicity already ate dinner. But the invite wasn't about Felicity and Oliver it was about Oliver choosing not to close himself off in his man pain. It was about joining a family unit and being normal for a while; a distraction from being torn up and hurting. Not to mention it is a very nice way of showing Oliver what a relationship is like instead of telling him, which didn't work. Come hang out with my wife and baby maybe this will rub off on you and you will wise up.

Genki · November 22, 2014

I find it interesting and logical that Diggle is looking out for Oliver in this situation.

I also find it a little refreshing too, mainly because of Fanfcition. In a lot of fanfics Diggle is always, warning Oliver not hurt Felicity or break her heart, etc, etc. I tend to find it to be paternalistic sexism, so I like that Arrow hasn't set Diggle up in that role.

How I think Arrow has set Diggle up to be is as Oliver's mentor, the same way Oliver is mentoring Roy. Diggle has been where Oliver is mentally and IIRC, when Diggle joined Oliver, part of his goal was to keep Oliver from loosing himself. With the current situation between Oliver and Felicity the stakes are higher for Oliver. Lack of focus can lead to serious mistakes with potentially fatal consequences. Quick mental risk analysis Oliver is in the red zone.

It tough for Felicity, but Oliver off his game (sorry for the stupid game metaphor, damn writers), puts lives at risk.

I don't think Diggle was pressuring Felicity or excluding her. I wish the Diggle/Felicity scene was more than just Oliver, but I think he was trying to tell her the is potential risk. And good on her for sticking up for her self. Also I think Diggle was sticking up for Felicity just as much to Oliver. I would never get as involve in my friends love life, but this is TV and so they are using Diggle to set the Narrative, and really he is the only logical choice because he is so close the both. Imagine if it was Roy or Laurel trying to have those conversations.

As for the Team Arrow excluding Felicity I don't think we are at that stage yet, who hasn't invited a friend over for dinner, at the last minute?

Annoying as it is, narratively they may be deliberately isolating Felicity, mainly to introduce Ol Crazy Eyes IMO, but maybe also to demonstrate, to a lesser extent, what being with Oliver (and the Team) gives Felicity. It is really easy to see how Oliver benefits from Felicity in his life, but sometimes it is harder to see what she gets. Taking away the superficial (Abs, Abs, Abs), confidence is the most obvious, she likes helping people, from a deleted scene a sense of Family, home and acceptance, but that hasn't been explicitly stated on screen. Why has she given up so much of her life for this mission?

I also think this is something that plays in Oliver's head, while Oliver get so much from having Felicity with him, all she gets is danger, constant worry, someone broken, emotionally closed off, with a mission that trumps almost all other aspects of life. Obviously he is wrong but I hope they show us, and Oliver, that. I think Diggle tried to express that with the "Felicity can only truly be happy with Oliver" call out.

Maybe Ray is SWM Oliver to show this as well, who knows.

I do hope Diggle get more scenes than Olicity Marriage counsellor, like with Lyla. Also does he have a job right now? I assume he is stay at home Dad except for Arrow missions.

blixie · November 23, 2014

the show is refusing to let Felicity have a conversation with anyone that explains her point of view. She told Oliver she wasn't going to wait for him and then the only other peak we have had at her feelings was on the Flash (grrr).

And that doesn't surprise me as Greg Berlanti's writing sweet spot is more family and romantic dramas, so he'd pay more attention to those kinds of beats, I think it's really obvious that him not being there in the room when they are writing the weekly scripts is why we have what we have: plot driven, character negligible writing. As much as I I didn't care for the front half of S1, and I hated Tommy-Laurel-Oliver the emotional connective tissue was always there, both in terms of family and romance. Guggenheim is absolutely not capable for looking out for that aspect of the show at all. The heart has been cut out of the show (and transplanted into the Flash which is FULL of heart), because he can't be bothered to take care of that end of the story.

Edited November 23, 2014 by blixie

statsgirl · November 23, 2014

I'm not really mad at Diggle, I don't think. Yet. The problem is that while I know that Felicity is doing the best thing she can do for herself, she gets no support from anyone, while Oliver does, from Diggle and from his relationship with Roy. I know the show is called Arrow but jeesh, can't someone support Felicity in her corner and be there for her to talk to?

Yeah, what heart there is is all for Oliver.

I don't actually see it as Oliver getting 'custody' of Diggle and Felicity being left out. I think if Felicity hadn't been on a work dinner with Ray in 307 then the invitation to dinner would have been extended her way too. I don't enjoy seeing Felicity removed from the team but this is a consequence of her storyline. Having a life outside of the lair means missing out on some things with the rest of the team and I think that is going to be part of her struggle.

I do agree the invitation was a spur of the moment thing for Oliver not to be alone with his douchiness and manpain and when Diggle went to talk to Felicity, he put it in terms of Oliver being in more danger because he's off his game (nice manipulation there, John), but by the time Diggle went home that night, he knew that Felicity's dinner was over and that she had been in tears hearing what Oliver said to Cupid.

Since Oliver had turned down the dinner invitation earlier, I would have thought better of Diggle if he had said to Felicity "I know you've already eaten but you shouldn't be alone tonight. Why don't you come over to our place for a drink?" She could have turned it down for plot reasons saying "Thanks, I appreciate it but I think I'd rather just go to the office and get some work done" but it would have been nice to see Diggle offer just one bit of support to her.

In Diggles mind (mine too) if those two idiots would just talk they could work this out. They could both be happy. But Felicity, rightly imo, says nope, if someone is going to break this stale mate it has to be Oliver. He doesn't push harder, he sees her point and gives her a kind smile then he leaves.

I think Diggle is wrong here. Every time he's tried to push Oliver before Oliver was ready, it's backfired, usually on Felicity. Nothing moves Oliver until Oliver sees the light for himself, usually when someone he cares about dies.

He's not trying to make anyone feel bad or twist the knife in either of them. He's trying desperately to get one of them to act on how they feel so they can be happy. Diggle is trying to save them both by bringing them together. He knows they are both hurting and wants to help.

It's so much like season 1 when Diggle quit the team because Oliver was all "only my crusade matters and not your need to avenge your brother". (Also saving Laurel but that's another story) So Diggle should appreciate how Felicity feels because he was exactly the same way 2 years ago, except for Felicity it's more complicated because there's love involved not just bromance and Felicity is still on Team Arrow, trying to work with the guy who's breaking her heart.

Diggle wants to bring them together because they're both hurting (although I think that's secondary to Oliver being safe) but as long as Oliver is being an ass, no matter what Felicity does she'll still be hurting. Let's say she does what Diggle wants and shuts down the idea of dating Ray. What does she get? More time watching Oliver meet the emotional needs of other people but never hers? More time putting her life on hold while she waits for him to die?

What Diggle is asking of Felicity is wrong. It will make things better for Oliver but it has the potential to crush Felicity. (I'm not big on sacrificing your life for someone just because he's being an ass.)

In the end, Diggle gives Oliver something to do other than be alone in the Arrow cave. He's not excluding Felicity. Felicity already ate dinner. But the invite wasn't about Felicity and Oliver it was about Oliver choosing not to close himself off in his man pain. It was about joining a family unit and being normal for a while; a distraction from being torn up and hurting. Not to mention it is a very nice way of showing Oliver what a relationship is like instead of telling him, which didn't work. Come hang out with my wife and baby maybe this will rub off on you and you will wise up.

Focusing entirely on that, that Diggle sees Oliver is unraveling and too stubborn to do anything about it, it makes complete sense because nothing is going to get Oliver to move on his position and as Diggle said, it's dangerous [for him to be such an idiot].

For me the problem is that it leaves Felicity completely alone. Again. The writers could have handled that by having Diggle show Felicity some sympathy for what she's going through but they didn't.

Annoying as it is, narratively they may be deliberately isolating Felicity, mainly to introduce Ol Crazy Eyes IMO, but maybe also to demonstrate, to a lesser extent, what being with Oliver (and the Team) gives Felicity.

The problem is that Felicity already knows what she gets from the Team, which is why she's leaving a business dinner to run tech for them, and when the dinner is over, she's back there in the cave. She's basically working 2 full-time jobs, one at QC/PT and one with Oliver and Diggle, and we've been shown several times that it's not easy balancing the two. But what choice does she have other than to quit Team Arrow? If she quit her job with Palmer, she would be burying herself in the lair with a guy who doesn't meet her emotional needs and only dangles maybes, waiting to die along with him, either physically or emotionally when he does. Forever the mistress who gets crumbs but can't quit the affair with the married man.

Edited November 23, 2014 by statsgirl

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