Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[statsgirl]

Why does Felicity have to have a choice? She wouldn't love Oliver if Ray didn't show up so she could choose Oliver? I can't buy that. With the trend of Oliver being self-sacrificing, he'll lock his feelings down and encourage Felicity to be happy with Ray. Where is Felicity's choice? Felicity's choice was taken from her when Oliver shut it down.

I'm pretty sure Oliver is going to unlock himself later this season and start pursuing her.  (MG tweeted that Oliver will be jealous, if you can believe him.)  He's even already started that by telling Diggle he doesn't want to die down there and she's barely left him..

 

Even if he doesn't, it's the red pill/blue pill thing. She loves Oliver but he's not available. She doesn't love Ray but he is.  What does she do?  If this were Jane Austen or even the 19th century she'd probably choose to marry Ray because women didn't have many other options. But Felicity does, she's smart enough and probably earns enough that she doesn't need a man.  Will she wait for Oliver, go with Ray, or choose her own life alone?.  

 

ETA:  I agree with wonderwall, the writers have done very well with making Felicity complex and almost as strong as Diggle.  Whether it's because EBR created and fights to keep her character good, or whether they just like Felicity, I don't know but so far, she's been written very well.

Edited October 18, 2014 by statsgirl

[Sunshine]

Why are we worried about Ray?  AK says after F1.04 there will be as many people wanting Barry & Felicity as Oliver & Felicity!

[wonderwall]

Why are we worried about Ray?  AK says after F1.04 there will be as many people wanting Barry & Felicity as Oliver & Felicity!

Inter-show romances could possibly be the most exhausting thing ever and will never happen :p 

[Sunshine]

I am quite amused by this...the question was about the Oliver & Felicity square.  He actually said there were going to be a lot of.. icity's this year.  This might be the first thing I have laughed about since the season started.     

[Guest]

Lol no, AK. Just no.

[statsgirl]

Why are we worried about Ray?  AK says after F1.04 there will be as many people wanting Barry & Felicity as Oliver & Felicity!

That's hard to believe.  Barry/Felicity were cute in season 2, like puppies.  But Barry has been established to be in love with Iris, who is there on his own show, and Felicity has two men interested in her in Starling City, so it's time to put Barricity to rest.

[Sunshine]

That's hard to believe.  Barry/Felicity were cute in season 2, like puppies.  But Barry has been established to be in love with Iris, who is there on his own show, and Felicity has two men interested in her in Starling City, so it's time to put Barricity to rest.

I agree.  It's just AK being AK and interviewers asking the same questions repeatedly.  Anything to get viewers to tune in.

[Guest]

Plus I'm pretty sure I remember Grant Gustin saying

"Unlike Oliver I'm in love with someone else"

which means he's not really available. I think they're just going to wrap up the B/F thread left hanging in Arrow. 

[DrSpaceman10]

People are now tweeting at AK that Olicity is much better than Barricity, AK asked for it lol 

[ostentatious]

I think that the extremes to which Ray is going in his Felicity pursuit are just meant to contrast with the inert Oliver.

Ray is a real threat to Oliver not because he’s as smart as Felicity, or because he shares her interests, or because he is Jewish, or even because he’s 2 inches taller than Oliver (bwa hahaha haha) but because when Ray wants something, he GRABS it.

Kreisberg and the other producers frequently invoked Faith (from BtVS, though I probably don’t need to add that for anyone actually reading this) when discussing adding Ray to the cast. Game changer, coming in for S3, right? But what do we think of when we think of Faith? I mean other than that whole dancing with Buffy in Bad Girls image, you think "Want. Take. Have." That is her defining feature, her main differentiator from Buffy.

And Ray – though not a sociopath, or if he is he is of the "leverages his sociopathy to get ahead in business" variety and not likely to murder anyone – is the same way. He sees what he wants and creates the opportunity to have what he wants. He decides quickly ("You're rich. You're impulsive.") though it’s based upon an enormous amount of information he has inhaled and absorbed already. He makes an offer. If that offer is rejected, he tries again.

Ray… once he realizes he wants her for himself, he isn’t going to waste fucking time letting her know. Making his pitch. Selling her. Trying. Meanwhile, there’s Oliver, saying “wait,” “not now,” “maybe never.” I'm not sure we'll be asked to evaluate Ray's methods on the "desirable long term healthy relationship option for Felicity" scale, but rather on the "as opposed to Oliver" scale.

Ray doesn't just accept things. "You can’t just accept things, Oliver."

It’s so interesting that Oliver’s two main romantic rivals have a time thing going on. Barry was always late, now he’s the fastest man alive. Ray seizes the goddamn day, every day.

I was searching through my copies of the Arrow transcripts, searching for instances of “time” and time related words as part of a larger project – AS. ONE. DOES. – when I came across this:

"The strongest of all warriors are these two— time and patience…It’s from "War and Peace. It takes a while, but it’s worth a read. Tolstoy knew that patience was the epitome of strength. It takes fortitude to stand still. Just as it is a sign of weakness or cowardice to move when you should not!” Clock King, Time of Death

Here is the fuller quote, though:

“… believe me, my dear boy, there is nothing stronger than those two: patience and time, they will do it all. But the advisers n’entendent pas de cette oreille, voila le mal. 1 Some want a thing—others don’t. What’s one to do?” he asked, evidently expecting an answer. “Well, what do you want us to do?” he repeated and his eye shone with a deep, shrewd look. “I’ll tell you what to do,” he continued, as Prince Andrew still did not reply: “I will tell you what to do, and what I do. Dans le doute, mon cher,” he paused, “abstiens-toi" 2 —he articulated the French proverb deliberately. War and Peace, Book 10, Chapter XVI

1 “Don’t see it that way, that’s the trouble.”

2 “When in doubt, my dear fellow, do nothing.”

It’s worth noting that most critics believe Tolstoy intends French phrases to indicate theatre and artifice, and Russian (above as English ofc) the opposite. So, we should not trust this adviser who tells the Prince “When in doubt, do nothing.” If you read the entire scene, the idea that different advisers will tell you very different things, none of them reconcilable, and what do you do with all that? is a thread.

Right now, Oliver is in doubt...so he is doing nothing. But Ray? If he has doubt, he doesn't let anyone know it, and he doesn't let it stop him. He does SOMETHING. He says SOMETHING. He takes risks. Is that purely a virtue? Of course not. But it is a stark contrast, and this crippling self-doubt is what is standing between Oliver and Felicity.

How many advisers has Oliver had so far, telling him who he is and how to be? So. Many. Some more suspect than others. The thing with advice – and advisers – is that they have a shelf life.

Shado taught him, and he teaches Helena, “Using a bow takes patience and discipline.” And that approach totally worked for a time, as various philosophies he learned from various advisers have tended to do. But he’s still clinging to it. Hallucinated Shado says in Three Ghosts, “Put down your bow. Take off my father’s hood.”

Enlightenment is a transient state, not an end state. Oliver believes patience is his enlightenment, and it worked for him at the time. It was what he needed then. But he’s trying to apply an old tool to a new situation. Slapping water is now just slapping goddamn water, and patience is inertia. It’s no longer a virtue for him. It’s a vice.

Inertia, patience, a passionless existence, not wanting things…that’s the Buddha he has met on the road. He needs to kill him.

He has been such a creature of extremes, and that’s why I love him so much. Pre-Island, he was too much a creature of passion. Now he’s overcorrected, as those given to extremes will do. I really think that’s what’s at the heart of the greatest fear being Oliver Queen himself thing. Being a creature of passion and excess – booze, drugs, women - ruined lives. He responded by eradicating that as best he could and keeping himself UNDER CONTROL. He DOESN’T DRINK. AT ALL. But when he does drink, it’s because of Felicity. He doesn’t do a lot of things…but when he does them, it’s for Felicity.

Oliver has no concept of himself as someone who can be balanced. He doesn’t trust himself to keep to the middle of the road. That’s really what he’s learning to do here. Not be afraid of that side of himself. See the good things that Ollie had going for him. A man cannot live by two names. He cannot be all one thing, or all another thing. No extremes. Balance.

But to get there, he has to believe what Raisa said to him in the pilot:

Raisa: You’re still a good boy.

Oliver: Oh, I think we both know I wasn’t.

Raisa: But a good heart.

And what Felicity said to him in 301:

"…you don’t really have the qualifications to run Queen Consolidated, but what you do have is passion."

He looks taken aback when Felicity says that line, like it never occurred to him that passion might be something good to offer. And at the core of this is whether or not he can believe Raisa’s opinion of him. If he has a good heart, he can listen to it. His heart can guide him. He can trust his own desires. He can trust himself with Felicity.

And I think Connor is the key to this. Whether or not he knows about him already (I think he does), the 21-yo who was heartbroken about the “miscarriage” is the one with the good heart Raisa saw. That’s who he is.

Oliver is such a strange hero. I really believe that the desirable end state for Oliver IS putting down the bow. Oliver should be a married dad with a physically demanding job but one that he can turn off at 5pm every day and not think about again until 8am the next. It is SO unfortunate for his soul that he was born rich with parents who insulated him from the consequences of his actions. Robert being all "Sisters? Not gonna end well but YOLO!" and Moira paying off Connor's mom. This is why he has needed such Extreme Parenting over the past 7 years. The 20+ before that didn't teach him much, and some of those were not good lessons.

Edited October 18, 2014 by thecatbastet

[bethy]

Oliver believes patience is his enlightenment, and it worked for him at the time. It was what he needed then. But he’s trying to apply an old tool to a new situation. Slapping water is now just slapping goddamn water, and patience is inertia. It’s no longer a virtue for him. It’s a vice.

 

 

I love your whole post, thecatbastet! One of the things this quote got me thinking about was Oliver pre-Island, Island, and now post-Island.  Pre-Island Oliver was pretty much all the things Ray Palmer is - rich, impulsive, want, take, have - without the discipline or the focus.  On the Island Oliver learned about time and patience the hard way.  He had to to survive.  And he continued, post-Island, to use what had worked on the island to survive in this "new" place where he once again felt adrift and out of control and lost. Right now he thinks Oliver Queen is someone to move past because he can only see his lack of discipline and the hurt that caused people he loved when he was that guy. And he thinks the Arrow with his discipline and hero-status is what he needs to hold onto to function and right the wrongs he did before. I think being the Arrow allows Oliver to feel like he's in control, every step measured, laser-focused on the mission. But what he needs now - in relation to Felicity and maybe even taking the next step to Green Arrow - is some of Oliver's determination and willingness to take risks (beyond the physical).  

 

Maybe part of the role Ray will play with Oliver is helping Oliver see what passion looks like - and not just in relational situations - and how much Oliver needs to step out of the protective shell he's built (understandably in my eyes) around himself. 

[dtissagirl]

That's the best insight into Ray's presence on the show, and Oliver's journey overall that I've ever read, @thecatbastet. Thank you. I'm gonna be thinking about this for awhile.

[SmallScreenDiva]

He looks taken aback when Felicity says that line, like it never occurred to him that passion might be something good to offer. And at the core of this is whether or not he can believe Raisa’s opinion of him. If he has a good heart, he can listen to it. His heart can guide him. He can trust his own desires. He can trust himself with Felicity.

 

Subtlety is not the "Arrow" writers' forte and after Felicity tells Oliver to "speak from the heart," what does he do? He asks her to go out to dinner with him. Because for the first time in a really long time, he trusted his heart, he listened to it, trusted his own desires. Thanks for the analyses, thecatbastet!

[ostentatious]

One thing I like that they're doing with him is that he is not exactly pushing her away. Pushing her away would be DOING SOMETHING. He is doing nothing. I really don't expect him to push her toward Ray or anyone else. And it isn't because he takes her for granted. He just has his head in the sand. "She just went to get some air." Yeah, she did. Just not the way he thought. But time doesn't stop while he's not looking, it keeps going.

He probably thinks he needs to be less selfish, but romantic love isn't entirely selfless, is it? Unless you're poly, you are saying to this person, because I love you, I want you to love me, and only me this way, and in return I will love only you this way. You have to love yourself to think of yourself, your love, as a gift. I want him to have that moment where he makes his case, takes a stand...Ray may be better on paper, he has all these advantages, he has definitely read Hamlet and he doesn't need you to help him figure out his phone after every iOS update, I'm a mess, I am not the best you can do in so many ways, but I love you. Love me back. I want you. Want me back. I choose you. Choose me.

In a weird way, Oliver committed to Felicity back in 112. Consider that scene at Big Belly Burger. What must've happened offscreen? This pretty girl he's been flirting with in previous eps (is that your way of saying you miss me? And he touched her shoulder for the first time) earlier in this ep had for the first time revealed she was attracted to him (I'm careful about what I put in my body/I noticed). She's already gotten him the info he asked for. She calls him up again, and wants to meet, but she won't say why. He *suggests she come to his house*. She suggests BBB. As she approaches he clearly didn't know how to behave, what she wanted, but he was keeping it flirty while he figured it out. I think until then, he thought this might be her way of asking him out. It is only after he guarantees her she can trust him and Shit Gets Real that he changes toward her. Once she's in, he has committed to her on that level. She can trust him. Women cannot trust Oliver Queen. When they do they get cheated on, and/or they die. He trusts his vigilante persona with Felicity, but he doesn't trust OQ with her.

It's Oliver Queen who has to take the risk of asking Felicity to take a risk on him.

Edited October 18, 2014 by thecatbastet

[TanyaKay]

I think that the extremes to which Ray is going in his Felicity pursuit are just meant to contrast with the inert Oliver.

Ray is a real threat to Oliver not because he’s as smart as Felicity, or because he shares her interests, or because he is Jewish, or even because he’s 2 inches taller than Oliver (bwa hahaha haha) but because when Ray wants something, he GRABS it.

Kreisberg and the other producers frequently invoked Faith (from BtVS, though I probably don’t need to add that for anyone actually reading this) when discussing adding Ray to the cast. Game changer, coming in for S3, right? But what do we think of when we think of Faith? I mean other than that whole dancing with Buffy in Bad Girls image, you think "Want. Take. Have." That is her defining feature, her main differentiator from Buffy.

And Ray – though not a sociopath, or if he is he is of the "leverages his sociopathy to get ahead in business" variety and not likely to murder anyone – is the same way. He sees what he wants and creates the opportunity to have what he wants. He decides quickly ("You're rich. You're impulsive.") though it’s based upon an enormous amount of information he has inhaled and absorbed already. He makes an offer. If that offer is rejected, he tries again.

Ray… once he realizes he wants her for himself, he isn’t going to waste fucking time letting her know. Making his pitch. Selling her. Trying. Meanwhile, there’s Oliver, saying “wait,” “not now,” “maybe never.” I'm not sure we'll be asked to evaluate Ray's methods on the "desirable long term healthy relationship option for Felicity" scale, but rather on the "as opposed to Oliver" scale.

Ray doesn't just accept things. "You can’t just accept things, Oliver."

 

 

I loved your whole post but the bit about contrasts between Oliver and Ray struck me most. I think that is exactly what writers were thinking when they created the character outline for Ray. I think they also wanted a viable option for Felicity because settling for some boring geek type guy after Oliver Queen would've been a little odd and OOC for Felicity.

[TanyaKay]

One thing I like that they're doing with him is that he is not exactly pushing her away. Pushing her away would be DOING SOMETHING. He is doing nothing. I really don't expect him to push her toward Ray or anyone else. And it isn't because he takes her for granted. He just has his head in the sand. "She just went to get some air." Yeah, she did. Just not the way he thought. But time doesn't stop while he's not looking, it keeps going.

He probably thinks he needs to be less selfish, but romantic love isn't entirely selfless, is it? Unless you're poly, you are saying to this person, because I love you, I want you to love me, and only me this way, and in return I will love only you this way. You have to love yourself to think of yourself, your love, as a gift. I want him to have that moment where he makes his case, takes a stand...Ray may be better on paper, he has all these advantages, he has definitely read Hamlet and he doesn't need you to help him figure out his phone after every iOS update, I'm a mess, I am not the best you can do in so many ways, but I love you. Love me back. I want you. Want me back. I choose you. Choose me.

In a weird way, Oliver committed to Felicity back in 112. Consider that scene at Big Belly Burger. What must've happened offscreen? This pretty girl he's been flirting with in previous eps (is that your way of saying you miss me? And he touched her shoulder for the first time) earlier in this ep had for the first time revealed she was attracted to him (I'm careful about what I put in my body/I noticed). She's already gotten him the info he asked for. She calls him up again, and wants to meet, but she won't say why. He *suggests she come to his house*. She suggests BBB. As she approaches he clearly didn't know how to behave, what she wanted, but he was keeping it flirty while he figured it out. I think until then, he thought this might be her way of asking him out. It is only after he guarantees her she can trust him and Shit Gets Real that he changes toward her. Once she's in, he has committed to her on that level. She can trust him. Women cannot trust Oliver Queen. When they do they get cheated on, and/or they die. He trusts his vigilante persona with Felicity, but he doesn't trust OQ with her.

It's Oliver Queen who has to take the risk of asking Felicity to take a risk on him.

 

I want to marry this whole post.

[dtissagirl]

Subtlety is not the "Arrow" writers' forte and after Felicity tells Oliver to "speak from the heart," what does he do? He asks her to go out to dinner with him. Because for the first time in a really long time, he trusted his heart, he listened to it, trusted his own desires. Thanks for the analyses, thecatbastet!

 

And then he kept speaking from his heart during the date and it LITERALLY BLEW UP IN HIS FACE. Because, again, subtlety is not their forte.

[ostentatious]

I loved your whole post but the bit about contrasts between Oliver and Ray struck me most. I think that is exactly what writers were thinking when they created the character outline for Ray. I think they also wanted a viable option for Felicity because settling for some boring geek type guy after Oliver Queen would've been a little odd and OOC for Felicity.

Yes, Felicity's blatant thirst for big athletic hunks is possibly her most refreshing quality for me.

I cannot WAIT until she walks in on Ray in his office doing situps in his doorway wearing nothing but track pants, gravity boots, and a FitBit type thing that he personally invented.

Really there is just no aspect of anything to do with Ray that I do not love. I love Ray for Felicity, I love Ray for Oliver, I love Ray for Olicity. He is the best thing to ever happen to them IMO.

[Nanrad]

Okay this has been my second time trying to understand why people think Laurel/Oliver should be together by the end. So what I did was go to other websites that are more pro-Laurel and pro-Lauriver in order to see the other POV. But what I came across isn't very substantial. I could write an essay as to why I think Oliver/Felicity should end up together but regarding Laurel/Oliver here's what I found:

• I found a lot of "They HAVE to end up together" without much justification why
• GA and BC were together in the comics
• Oliver held onto Laurel's photo on the island and it made him fight to get back
• They're soulmates
• Some people think they have a lot of chemistry (and that's their right)
• They're best friends
• They challenge one another
• They're always there for each other and comfort one another when they need it
• They have history and clearly mean a lot to one another
• Laurel will always forgive Oliver

The problem with these is that I can easily pick apart each of these reasons and invalidate them so easily... I still don't get it :p

 

 I honestly don't get it as well, it's mind boggling. I'm at the point where I don't think some people knows what chemistry is and I'm not talking seeing two people's connection, but the definition.

 

That's hard to believe.  Barry/Felicity were cute in season 2, like puppies.  But Barry has been established to be in love with Iris, who is there on his own show, and Felicity has two men interested in her in Starling City, so it's time to put Barricity to rest.

 

Well, Iris is in a committed relationship, so there is a chance that Barry decides to date rather than watch her be happy with someone else.

[ostentatious]

The thing is, nothing on that list is unique to Laurel, and most of it was never actually shown on the tv show Arrow.

Basically every other character on the show challenges Oliver. Not unique.

They have history? They told me so, but the show was never interested in showing us. Where were the establishing flashbacks? There have been almost no Lauriver flashbacks, and only one didn't involve showing us betrayal. Why no "good times"? Where was their meet cute? You can cast kids. Where was their friends to lovers moment? Wigs and a liberal coating of Vaseline on the lens and early Maroon 5 in the background and we're fine with SA and KC as college sophomores.

Soulmates? Best friends? Again, I am told, but never shown. You cannot simply handwave it and tell me oh, it happened offscreen in the past. If the writers didn't care enough to PUT IT IN THE SHOW how can I care?

And the picture. All we know about the picture is that he had it on him, along with the book, when he got back. We also know that unless Amanda Waller is really fucking thoughtful, she didn't ensure it was packed with his belongings when she whisked him off to Hong Kong. I'd be willing to bet it was stuck inside the book in the fuselage, and he happened upon both during his last days before "rescue." I would be very surprised if the show doesn't address the real meaning of the picture. Not meaningless, but not a talisman he clung to that sustained him through the years. Like the book, I think it was probably something he found at a moment when he was at loose ends and didn't know what to do with his newfound freedom, and he found those two things, and they gave him an idea of where to go.

Edited October 18, 2014 by thecatbastet

[statsgirl]

"So don't."   John Diggle is a man of few words but what he does say is very effective.

 

Usually I think about Team Arrow in terms of action and the villains of the week.  But in 'Sara', they worked more about Oliver's inner growth.  Felicity told him (in many words) that she didn't want to stay down in the lair, waiting for Oliver to die. She wanted more from life than that.  Oliver thought about it, and at the end of the episode concluded that he didn't want just wait down there for death.  And impractical and experienced Diggle told him that it's really up to him if he doesn't want to.

[Nanrad]

thecatbastet, that was my same criticism, but Laurvier's keep acting as if those aren't important questions/criticisms. WE keep being told things, but never shown. I don't believe anything the writer's tell me about their relationship, except that Oliver cheated and that was because I was shown.

[ostentatious]

Yet I keep hearing naysayers complaining that Oliver and Felicity's relationship came out of the blue and we're just being told about their feelings, not shown them.

[wonderwall]

Yet I keep hearing naysayers complaining that Oliver and Felicity's relationship came out of the blue and we're just being told about their feelings, not shown them.

Apparently nowadays people need to see a sexual connection in order to believe that there is an attraction between two people... Romance nowadays have no subtlety which is one of the reasons why I love Oliver/Felicity because most of the shows I watch there's just so much obvious flirting and sex and I'm glad that Oliver/Felicity's relationship is based on love and not lust. 

[wonderwall]

And to add onto what I already said above, how many on screen romances have you seen where two people go on an actual date before kissing or making out or having sex? There aren't a lot of them let me tell you... There's something really pure and unadulterated about Oliver/Felicity's relationship that resonates with me. That connection is probably the most innocent thing that Oliver has. And before they broke up and all hell broke loose, it seemed like one of the only bright spots in Oliver's lonely life. 

[TanyaKay]

And to add onto what I already said above, how many on screen romances have you seen where two people go on an actual date before kissing or making out or having sex? There aren't a lot of them let me tell you... There's something really pure and unadulterated about Oliver/Felicity's relationship that resonates with me. That connection is probably the most innocent thing that Oliver has. And before they broke up and all hell broke loose, it seemed like one of the only bright spots in Oliver's lonely life.

You are spot on. My beef with a lot of TV relationships is that people jump into bed first and get into a relationship later. Felicity and Oliver took their own sweet time to get to their first date.

To be honest to post island Oliver, he also had at least one date with both Helena & Mckenna before he slept with them, even with Isabel there were drinks and some minor flirting. It is just the Lance sisters who were not given this courtesy and he jumped straight to bed with them with no dating even after the act of sex.

Edited October 19, 2014 by TanyaKay

[NumberCruncher]

You are spot on. My beef with a lot of TV relationships is that people jump into bed first and get into a relationship later. Felicity and Oliver took their own sweet time to get to their first dates. To be honest to post island Oliver, he also had at least one date with both Helena & Mckenna before he slept with them, even with Isabel there were drinks and some minor flirting. It is just the Lance sisters who were not given this courtesy and he jumped straight to bed with them with no dating even after the act of sex.

 

That's actually a really interesting observation.  I wonder if the showrunners even realize how backwards the Laurel and Sara hookups were compared to every other romantic liason Oliver had after returning from the island.  I would love for someone to ask them about that just to see what their reaction would be because I don't get the feeling it was intentional.

[doesntworkonwood]

So it was pointed out today that the first (and only) person that Felicity has told she loves is John Diggle, in this scene.

 

 

I think that it really shows that they've got such a deep, trusting friendship, and I'd really love to see more scenes with just the two of them. 

 

I think within the threesome everyone has a bond with everyone else, be that Oliver/Felicity, Oliver/Diggle or Felicity/Diggle, and whilst they're all lovely to watch,  I think that Felicity/Diggle is underutalised. 

[Ceylon5]

Diggle was also the first person Felicity kissed (in 206, before he went off to get himself thrown into a Russian prison) on the show.  I think their friendship is one of the best things about Arrow, and I hope we're going to see some more of it in the up-coming eposides - I think Felicity could really use a bit of Diggle friendship at this point.

[Guest]

Thinking about it I was surprised that we haven't really had any Felicity/Diggle so far this season, although it's early days so I'm not too worried yet. I thought Diggle's reaction to Felicity's bloody and unconscious body in 301 was subdued and odd. And I would have liked to have seen a hug or something between them in 302, maybe around the grave when everyone was comforting each other. It's really strange. If they're going to mess with Oliver/Felicity this season then one side of the original Team Arrow dynamic needs to work so I hope to see more Diggle/Felicity friendship soon.

[SmallScreenDiva]

Oh yes, please, more Diggle and Felicity. I agree Diggle's reaction to bloody Felicity was off. Would have wanted to have seen him check for himself, Diggle being the one with actual medical experience after all. Just a quick look at her eyes or something in the background while Oliver was calling Detective Lance. And in 3x02, even just a throwaway shot of him placing a hand on her shoulder on the way out or something would have worked for me. Because one side of my Team Arrow dynamic is already screwy (Oliver and Felicity), so I need to see Diggle and Felicity bonding. I wonder if Diggle will ever bring up the tension between Oliver and Felicity. After all, he was the one who gave Oliver a push with that conversation.

[TanyaKay]

That's actually a really interesting observation.  I wonder if the showrunners even realize how backwards the Laurel and Sara hookups were compared to every other romantic liason Oliver had after returning from the island.  I would love for someone to ask them about that just to see what their reaction would be because I don't get the feeling it was intentional.

 

I don't know if it was unintentional or not, but I do think that Oliver has moved between the Lance sisters with ease before and had been on and off with Laurel so many times that perhaps he did not feel the need to either woo them or go through the whole dating business before hitting the sheets.

I think it is the residual effect because he knew both of them from before but then he knew McKenna from before as well. May be he is just a douche with Lance sisters and then they let him get away with it as well.

[Sakura12]

I think a lot of issues with Laurel also come from her first introductions with the other characters. In almost all of her first scenes with the other characters she was either bitchy or dismissive. Her first interaction with Oliver, she yelled at him. Yes, he deserved it but that's the first impression we get of a Laurel and Oliver and that soured their romantic relationship right from the start. Same thing happens with Sara, the first time they meet, she yells at her and throws a glass at her head (again it's understandable anger, however we just saw some of the awful things Sara went through in the episode before that). Then in her first interaction with Felicity, she acted like she couldn't be bothered to respond to her, then the next real interaction she does the same thing, until the last few episodes were she dismisses Felicity and Dig from their team lair. I don't know if she interacted with Dig prior to that, but we know Dig isn't a big fan of hers. Now in Season 3, we her seeing ordering Felicity around in the lair like she owns the place. 

 

We can go with Laurel was angry and grieving Sara's death for the last one. However that's how she acted before when Sara was still alive, so it's hard me to actually separate her actions in season 3 from her previous actions. First impressions matter, as well as second and third ones. Laurel never improved her first impressions because she acted the same way in the rest of them. 

 

Then we have Oliver and Felicity's first meeting where it's light, cute and happy. Oliver's first interaction with Dig while not a great one, was still light and humorous. Sara's first meeting with Oliver was kick to the side but then we saw her find a way to keep him from being shot. Then Sara's first meeting with Felicity and Dig was friendly and light. There was no screaming or yelling or ignoring.

[fantique]

I don't have it in me to ship Oliver with anyone at the moment. So I'm not trying to wage a shipping war of who Oliver should be with.  Honestly he shouldn't be with anyone until he learns to stop trying to be the leader on this solitary crusade; I don't think any woman is going to snap him out of that it's something he has to figure out on his own.

But then again, I'm a strange one and don't really ship anyone on most of the shows I watch.

These 2 bolded quotes reflect my general sentiment. I am not a "shipper", that's just not in my nature. I never have a OTP either. Nothing wrong with either but I just always feel that if a character's main concerns and interests lie in their romantic entanglements then they are kind of a waste of space. I guess I am more into "friend-shipping". I love bromances and galpals, they always make a character better for me.

I love Felicity and want her happy. Romantic fulfilment is one of those components but for example right now when I look at Felicity's choice to work at QC, it's about her life goals. It's about what she wants to have accomplished and if she's taken advantage of everything her life has too offer. Getting a significant part of her life spent outside the Foundry is a step towards not being confined to interacting with only 4/5 people and only doing criminal activities (being part of a team of heroes is great but it takes a toll if that's all you are and do).

I also agree that, while the PR has brought up romance between Ray and Felicity, so far the show very much portrays his interest as a professional/scientific one. I can see it evolving later when seeing them work together in figuring out a puzzle or celebrating a big win. That's why I don't see Felicity having made a romantic choice between the 2 guys. She made a choice for herself. She took herself out of the race with Oliver. When she realised that he is choosing to live in limbo, she chose not to be there with him. 

To me relationships are about bringing different sides of a character through interaction with another. I want Felicity back to her confident wise cracking self and her having a compelling job will do that. Maybe later when she is involved with whoever we get to see her open up more about how she came to be this complex, fascinating person she is now. Her issues with abandonment are more likely to be triggered by romance since it is more likely anyone will break up with their girl/boyfriend than they will suddenly lose a friend.

 

As for why Felicity needs to have a choice... I guess I'm in the minority here when I say I love that she has a choice. I think there's something romantic and powerful in saying "I don't need you, but I really, really want you to be a part of my life, to be with me. I could choose anyone in this world but I choose you because you make me happy, because I trust you, and because I love you". It not only shows how independent Felicity is, but it also shows how deeply she loves Oliver. This is way more powerful than the whole 'meant to be' crap. 

I agree that relationships based on the desperation of one party and their disbelief in finding anyone else as good makes it more feel like latching on than accepting that, better/alternative option or not, they have chosen this person because of how they feel about them. It essentially says that the person with only one option only likes the other because they are there and would "upgrade" if the opportunity were to present itself. None of this represents who Felicity is. She is careful with who she fully trusts and love so when she consciously commits herself to someone, it means a lot. It also shows a greater investment which means that if she gets hurt it has more effect. I have mentioned earlier (when SA tweeted about Felicity breaking Oliver's heart) that I actually think that Felicity would be more guarded in a romantic relationship than in a friendship and that when they do get together, Felicity is the one that has a harder time giving up more of herself / emotionally keep him at arms length. Which makes me love how complex and flawed she is even more.

Edited October 20, 2014 by fantique

[Danny Franks]

Sakura12, even Roy, who has never been my favourite character, had a relatively light and fun introduction to Team Arrow.

 

Laurel is genuinely the only character who is supposed to be seen favourably, but who is consistently written as a bitch to other people the viewer is supposed to like. I don't get it. Never have. Is this the writers subconsciously writing her to Katie Cassidy's strengths (I know that word must be used very loosely, here), or do they actually want her to be seen as a bitch? Or, even worse, do they honestly not even see that they're writing her this way? She's just written as an awful, selfish, unpleasant chore of a woman, and I cannot understand why this person is supposed to be someone to root for. The only time her character made sense to me was the beginning of season 2, where I briefly thought they might actually be making her the villain.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Danny Franks

[tv echo]

thecatbastet's entire post on the differences between Ray and Oliver was very insightful and spot on.  But, in Oliver's defense, Ray didn't spend five years away from home enduring torture, injury and who knows what else, turning him into a wary, suppressed and distrustful person with a mission.  Even so, if Oliver hadn't been shipwrecked, he would probably still be that pre-island, mama's boy, asshole, but likely married to Laurel and cheating on her on the side by now.  So his time away made (or will make) Oliver into a better man.

 

The biggest difference between Ray and Oliver in relation to Felicity?  Oliver needs her, Ray doesn't.  (I'm not talking about her IT skills, but her personally.)

 

I know that sounds like romantic tripe, but I'm not talking about unhealthy co-dependency.  If you feel essentially alone and without family, you put together your own 'family' of people who need and love you and help make you a better person, and vice versa.

Edited October 20, 2014 by tv echo

[tv echo]

This is in response to something that was brought up in the News & Media thread (Sara and Felicity)....

 

I never got the sense that Felicity ever expressed her jealousy of Sara when Sara was hooked up with Oliver.  If she felt any jealousy in her heart because of her own feelings for Oliver, she kept it to herself and didn't show it.  At one point, she felt that Sara was displacing her in the Arrowcave, but that had nothing to do with a romantic wish but her IT role on Team Arrow.  She hated that Oliver had that one-night stand with Isabel because she thought that he deserved better.  But I think she was okay with him being with Sara because she admired Sara and because she didn't think he would ever consider her in that way.  I think Felicity spent a lot of time with Sara in the Arrowcave last season (more than we saw) and that they developed a good friendship.

 

Even in the "Sara" episode, when she had that scene with Oliver and said to him "it's Sara - your Sara", she said it in a tone of tearful sorrow.  There was no edge or jealousy in that tone.  (I can imagine another person on the show saying that same line and it would come across as cold and accusatory.)

Edited October 21, 2014 by tv echo

[quarks]

Felicity admitted in the script that she was jealous. But, and I think this is the important part, she was mostly jealous because she saw Sara as a stronger person than she was in many ways, which is a very different sort of jealousy than "Oliver's mine! MINE!"  And she was worried about keeping her place on the team, because she thought that Sara could replace her. And although this wasn't in the script, it's possible that on some level she feels that if she did have Sara's strength, Oliver wouldn't have pulled his "I can't be the Arrow and Oliver Queen" crap on her, and on some level she might also be thinking, well, if Sara, who was so strong, got killed, that just made it even more unlikely that Oliver will get over his issues and think about me again. (Which, not incidentally, show, is an actual issue that could easily drive Oliver/Felicity apart without having to drag in a love triangle.)

 

But the big thing for me, at least, is that Felicity got over it. She had her feelings, she dealt with them, she moved on. And then did it again.  My issue at the moment isn't that she's moved on, it's who she moved on to, especially since Barry - hi Barry! - is now awake and sorta available, especially since commuting issues don't really apply in his case. Given the issues of the dual shows, they wouldn't be able to do that much on screen with this, but a few "Barry's heading into town tonight," "I'm heading over to Felicity's," would do fine. Oh well.

[dtissagirl]

ITA, @tv-echo.

Felicity's line about Sara to Roy goes "I always envisioned her as this sort of Amazonian warrior. Invincible. Something I could never be. I was so jealous."

I can see that Felicity wished she could be more like Sara in the invincible Wonder Woman nod way, but yeah, it had nothing to do with Oliver.

[Pyramid]

I agree. I never got the impression that Felicity was jealous of Sara because of Oliver. It was actually pretty refreshing seeing these two woman being chummy and not getting all eye daggers because of a man.

[apinknightmare]

 

And although this wasn't in the script, it's possible that on some level she feels that if she did have Sara's strength, Oliver wouldn't have pulled his "I can't be the Arrow and Oliver Queen" crap on her, and on some level she might also be thinking, well, if Sara, who was so strong, got killed, that just made it even more unlikely that Oliver will get over his issues and think about me again.

 

The "because of the life that I lead" thing is so funny to me because Oliver never specifically said anything about his reasoning for that being rooted in fear of the other person getting hurt (although I think SA might've expounded on it at a con? I can't remember). Granted, Oliver has expressed on many occasions that the people close to him do get hurt and that maybe it was better that he live a solitary life just to avoid the fallout, but I get the impression that the "because the life that I lead" thing had more to do with Oliver feeling that he couldn't be a fully committed partner more than fearing for Felicity's (or anyone else's) safety. That, to me, is why he felt comfortable starting something with Sara - living a similar life, she wasn't going to expect too much from him, and he knew he wasn't going to disappoint her by having his attentions mostly elsewhere (unless I'm completely forgetting something that was actually presented in the show, which is entirely possible).

 

Same thing with the Oliver vs. Arrow bit - he doesn't think he can be Oliver Queen, because Oliver Queen wants that normal life, and that normal life and the relationships that come along with it distract him from his mission in dangerous ways. Yes, there's the worry about his loved ones getting hurt, but it seems to be more of a self-preservation/building up of walls to keep feelings at bay type of thing. Maybe this is just me projecting, since he hasn't seemed all that concerned either time Felicity's gotten hurt; he just handwaves traumatic brain injury like it ain't even a thing!

Edited October 21, 2014 by apinknightmare

[quarks]

Oliver sounded panicked when she was knocked out a few episodes ago, insisting on carrying her and all that.  And he was upset enough when she got hurt this time to break up with her, a scene that was mirrored with his argument with Diggle, where Oliver was explicitly keeping Diggle out of the field for Diggle's protection and for the baby.

 

All that said, Oliver's stated reason is that if he's with someone he could really, really care about, he loses focus and then everybody goes boom. Totally agreed about the traumatic head injury, though. I really hope SOMEONE thinks about having Felicity checked out at an actual hospital the next time she's knocked out. Diggle, once again, we need you.

Edited October 21, 2014 by quarks

[apinknightmare]

Oliver sounded panicked when she was knocked out a few episodes ago, insisting on carrying her and all that.  And he was upset enough when she got hurt this time to break up with her, a scene that was mirrored with his argument with Diggle, where Oliver was explicitly keeping Diggle out of the field for Diggle's protection and for the baby.

 

All that said, Oliver's stated reason is that if he's with someone he could really, really care about, he loses focus and then everybody goes boom. Totally agreed about the traumatic head injury, though. I really hope SOMEONE thinks about having Felicity checked out at an actual hospital the next time she's knocked out. Diggle, once again, we need you.

 

Yeah, he was panicked initially, I just would've liked to have seen him ask her how she was doing after since, you know, her nose kept bleeding while she was giving him pep talk #19059328058. Come on, dude. The brains of your operations' brains are literally being rattled about in her beautiful head. Check up a bit, will ya?

[quarks]

I'm mostly in agreement, especially since I earlier squawked that if Oliver really loved Felicity, he would have taken her to the hospital post van injury instead of saying nice romantic things to her in a dark mansion. But to be fair, after the van injury, she told him that she was fine and could walk. After the bomb, the second she woke up, he went to her and reassured her, and even after she was cleaned up and in a nice new outfit, he asked her if she was ok. She said she was.  

 

I think this more points to an overall problem with the show regarding injuries and especially head injuries.  Everybody not named McKenna recovers suspiciously quickly. Take these injuries seriously show!

[tv echo]

If you like the relationship between Oliver and Felicity, then you'll like this analysis; otherwise, you'll want to skip it...

 

Why Oliver and Felicity is the epic love story ‘Arrow’ needs
23 hours ago
http://fangirlish.com/why-oliver-and-felicity-is-the-epic-love-story-arrow-needs/

[bethy]

I think this more points to an overall problem with the show regarding injuries and especially head injuries.  Everybody not named McKenna recovers suspiciously quickly. Take these injuries seriously show!

 

 

Early on in Supernatural - the WB days - Jared and Jensen joked about the "WB ointment" that went on all their injuries that miraculously healed them between episodes. I think the same principle applies now.  It's just the CW ointment. :)

[statsgirl]

I am surprised, and very happy, that they got the Felicity/Sara relationship so right.  It must have been so tempting for these guys to make Felicity jealous of Sara being with Oliver because that's the SOP trope, but instead they made Felicity admire and like Sara and worry about her place on the team.  They did this so right, and other things so wrong.  Why can't they make Laurel respect Felicity?  Felicity was there first.

 

 

Why Oliver and Felicity is the epic love story ‘Arrow’ needs

Good article.  

 

I understand the need to break them up to bring them together again if only

 

1.  They had got more than 5 minutes to be together first (they didn't even get to order dinner) 

and

2.  It didn't coincide with the Rise of Laurel Lance in the lair, where Felicity currently isn't as she's working for Ray Palmer.

All that said, Oliver's stated reason is that if he's with someone he could really, really care about, he loses focus and then everybody goes boom. 

I like to think of that as "Oliver's excuse of the moment".  First it was that if people knew, they would see him differently, as he told Thea, but since that doesn't apply to Felicity (and knowing he was the Arrow only made Moira really really proud of him), now it's the "if I care about someone, I lose focus."   He even did that with Sara, trying to break up with her when Slade arrived so that Slade wouldn't target her.  (Yeah, Oliver, Slade had no idea who she was or history with her except as your current girlfriend.)  We're supposed to feel sorry for him but really, it's awfully ego-centric.

 

 

 Barry - hi Barry! - is now awake and sorta available, especially since commuting issues don't really apply in his case. 

Nice.

Edited October 21, 2014 by statsgirl

[ohjoy]

Why Oliver and Felicity is the epic love story ‘Arrow’ needs

... but not the one it deserves. (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

[ostentatious]

I'm glad they said the epic love story it *needs*, because oddly enough...this show really does have to have an epic love story in place. That's what they planned, and it's obvious that a lot of Oliver's character arc needed a single consistent love interest as its focus, even though I'm sure they planned to not have him actually sleep with Laurel until around this time, actually. Maybe end of season two.

 

But we were never supposed to doubt who Oliver wanted. This show does not want to be about which woman Oliver really loves. It wants to be about him reaching out to grab the life he wants/come back to life/really truly once and for all leave the island metaphorically as well as physically. And part of grabbing the life he wants includes his love interest.

 

This show needed an epic love interest only marginally less than TVD needs constantly shifting love interests.

Edited October 21, 2014 by ostentatious

[wonderwall]

From the conversation in the bitterness thread about the threat of Lauriver: 

 

I mean... why would they let go of this (see below) gold mine for an obvious shit show?

 

 

Unffff.

Edited October 21, 2014 by wonderwall