Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[wonderwall]

To be honest, I don't understand what Diggle has to do with Oliver's relationship with Felicity and whether they have a solid relationship or not... but I guess I'll bite. 

 

I think it is...in 2.22 when Oliver was having his moment of doubt it was only Felicity that was allowed to motivate him. Diggle was conveniently missing. 

Like the others said, it served for the plot in 2.23. I actually thought it was a powerful moment between Oliver/Felicity and a moment that deepened their relationship because in order for people to believe Oliver/Felicity as a couple, they needed to show that Felicity too could bring Oliver back from the brink. Digg and Oliver's relationship has already been established in season 1, season 2 was them establishing Oliver's relationship with Felicity. I don't see the crime in that. I don't think Oliver's relationship with Diggle suffered because Diggle was always there for Oliver whenever he needed help. That scene you were talking about was about 2-3 minutes long? Diggle could've shined in so many of the episodes where Oliver was brooding in season 2b, so why did he have to shine in that exact part? I don't get it.

 

I think that we'll be seeing more of this dynamic in season 3 as well as Oliver's relationship with Felicity. But I firmly stand by the idea that Digg being put in the backseat had nothing to do with Olicity considering Olicity had minimal screentime as well. 

 

Those things were in 2A as well. 5 minutes is an under...exaggeration (?) I think.

I don't believe so. I think this is quite accurate.

 

Rewatching s1...that's not really true despite what Diggle said.

Okay. That still doesn't disprove what I said about both of them being important to Digg, just in different senses. I get the feeling that you're trying to say that Diggle is more important to Oliver than Felicity. I don't understand why considering they're both really important to him. Felicity is just important to Oliver in a more romantic sense. 

 

Honestly not to be rude...but if Felicity wasn't scaled back in 2b I don't think many that dislike it here would have hated it as much.

Don't worry, you're not being rude. I don't like talking about ifs. It's a moot point. Would I have liked it if Felicity wasn't ignored as much? Sure, but the question is by how much? She's my favorite character. But I didn't like season 2b for a lot of reasons. I didn't like the bottle episodes (apart from suicide squad) and I didn't like how the plot just went to a complete standstill in 2b. I hated that Digg was ignored as well. So yeah, there were a lot of problems with season 2b, and Felicity being put on the backburner is one of them. 

 

2A had all the things 2B did..just a bit more ramped while Felicity (and only her) was scaled back.

I disagree. I think season 2b lost its purpose and good writing. While 2a focused more on Team Arrow 2b focused more on Sara and the Lance family. Even Oliver wasn't the focus on a lot of the episodes which grated on my nerves considering this show is called Arrow and not Canary or Black Canary or whatever. Season 2b focused on the wrong things, brought out the worst in characters and was just a mess while 2a had tighter writing, better flow, etc. Again, not everything is about Felicity for me as you make it seem. 

Oliver can have two people in his life who mean the most..but the show tried place Felicity as being more important to him...than anyone in his life.

I don't think that's true. Felicity means a lot to him, but I don't think the show ever even implied that Felicity was the most important woman or person in his life. When did you get the idea that they're trying to force her to be the most important person in his life? I think that the show has done a good job (eh sort of) showing that Oliver has a lot of important people in his life. Why else would Slade kidnap Moira, Thea, Laurel, and Felicity? It's not just Felicity who's important to him. I think you're mistaking the EPs intent. They didn't intend to say that romantic love is more important than familial one. I believe they made it clear that they're both equally important. Why else would Oliver go out of his mind when Thea was kidnapped? He was ready to kill for Thea as well. 

Edited September 15, 2014 by wonderwall

[wingster55]

I don't think that's true. Felicity means a lot to him, but I don't think the show ever even implied that Felicity was the most important woman or person in his life. When did you get the idea that they're trying to force her to be the most important person in his life? I think that the show has done a good job (eh sort of) showing that Oliver has a lot of important people in his life. Why else would Slade kidnap Moira, Thea, Laurel, and Felicity?

 

The Count, the speech in 2.22 etc

 

2A vs 2B in terms of writing? I don't think there was any significant difference in the writing. I never found Slade's motivation weak considering he was injected with Mirakuru

 

Again, not everything is about Felicity for me as you make it seem.

 

Didn't mean to imply that.

[catrox14]

 

I would agree but I don't think this has been shown so much on screen...particularly in the case of Thea.

 

Boy, I cannot disagree more.  He was ready to kill for Thea when she was kidnapped by Slade. Assuming that his how one measures how much Oliver means to them.  Every interaction he had with Moira even the bad ones IMO proved that his family was most important. Heck I would even put Tommy (RIP) in that mix too.  I just don't think there is any possible way to decide who Oliver found to be most important based on what was on screen.

[TanyaKay]

I find it very funny that a lot of Laurel and Loliver fans play the advocate for the character of John Diggle and say that Diggle's role was minimized at the cost of olicity/ Felicity, even though it couldn't be further from the truth.

The original Team Arrow dynamics feeds into Olicity, Olicity could not have existed without Team Arrow dynamics, for example team scenes in episode 2x02, 2x03 and 2x10 were major Olicity moments as well and when they dropped Team Arrow, Olicity too was reduced but even then Diggle/Smoak bromance stayed strong (case in point episode 2x14 and Diggle/Felicity scene in 2x16 with hot chocolate and stalker in college outside her house).

If anything Felicity and John compliment each other and do not eat away each other's time. It is other unnecessary characters that do not even fit in with the main story arc that had cost character development to these two beloved characters in season 2.

[Ceylon5]

I think it's a fool's errand to try to categorize people's importance in terms of how a particular person (in this instance Oliver) feels about them.  Comparing the type of love someone feels for a lover versus how they feel towards a sibling, or their love for a best friend versus a girlfriend, or whatever the combination might be, is to compare completely different things.  Yes, there are stories about how a person gives up everything and everyone to be with someone (usually a lover), but that certainly isn't the theme of this story.  If anything, this story is about how Oliver is trying to learn to balance all the different people in his life, all of whom are important to him and none of whom he wishes to give up.

 

While Oliver is trying to learn balance in his relationships, so too are the writers.  To me, the best written TV shows are the ones where the writers seem able to advance every character's story at an even pace, rather than concentrating on one person/ relationship/ storyline to the exclusion of everyone else, and then moving on to the next character(s) and doing the same thing, so you get each person's story in occasional bursts, with little follow-through in the interim.  Ensemble casts (like Friends) are usually better at this, as most episodes have a storyline for every one of the main characters, so everyone has similar amounts of screen-time and advancement of their own story-lines.  It's a little harder for a protagonist-based show like Arrow, because the primary focus is Oliver, so other people's story-lines either have to be part of his or complement his in some way, or risk being outside the main plot of the story.  Criticisms that are often levelled as a result of this are that either someone's non-protagonist-related story-line is taking away from the main story and is irrelevant (e.g. Laurel), or that characters never have any story of their own outside of the protagonist and that limits their characterisation (e.g. Felicity).  The reason why the writers prefer characters to know about Oliver being the Arrow is because this enables them to bring them organically into the main plot-lines, rather than having to create peripheral roles for them which have to be fitted around everything else that's happening.

 

I think, though, that shows that underestimate the simple importance of steadily developing a protagonist's supporting cast and his/her relationships with them (and theirs with each other) in favour of the procedural/action/whatever "main" plot of the story misunderstand what it is that keeps shows watchable over many seasons.  Being new and shiny can only carry a show for a very short period as there are always newer, shinier things to distract us, so unless we've invested in the characters or the on-going story-line or relationships, chances are people will get bored and stop watching.  There are not many people who can faithfully watch a show year after year purely for the weekly who-dunnit (in the case of procedurals) or for special effects and action, if that's all it's offering, because even the best writers only have so many stories to tell and only so many ways to tell them.  Any particular show's version of it gets stale after a while, if that's all you're there for.  But human beings invest in each other as individuals, so if we get attached to the specific people in the story and what's happening to them and how they're relating to each other, then we will keep watching, because nothing else, no matter how shiny, can replace someone specific we love.  Building up the stories and delving into the lives of all these special people we've invested in and grown attached to is vital, and it needs to be consistent - many people will abandon a show if the particular people they like are marginalised for so long that they can't remember why they're watching anymore.

 

Shows often try to remedy the lack of steady characterisation of lesser characters by giving them Very Special Episodes every now and then, which contain an information dump for that character.  While this is, I suppose, better than nothing, I think it's a poor story-telling tactic to depend on.  Very Special Episodes should complement, not replace, ongoing character development, and should be more of a means to give the main actor a bit of well-deserved time off, rather than to try to correct poor story pacing.

 

I personally think that in terms of relationships shown on Arrow, people have generally responded so positively to Oliver's relationships with Diggle and Felicity, and theirs with each other (i.e. Team Arrow) partly (1) because we've seen these relationships from their beginnings and watched them develop in real time; (2) they've been built up pretty consistently and steadily in each episode; and (3) the relationships are based in truth, not lies.  There is such a disconnect between who Oliver was before the island and who he is now, that anyone who knew him before was automatically at a disadvantage - in order to learn to know him now, they first had to realise that he had changed, then unlearn what they previously knew and only then could they start to get to know him now.  Adding to that all the baggage from before, it's a big ask.  With Diggle and Felicity, he not only had a clean slate, but he also told them the truth about his alter-ego fairly early in both relationships, which made those relationships the only really honest present-day ones he had in the first season.  With everyone else he was pretending to be something he wasn't, which doesn't make for healthy, genuine relationships - and by the time they do find out, there's also all the new damage from present-day Oliver's lies to contend with and try to fix (hello, Thea!).  With Diggle and Felicity, things are just a lot less messy.  

 

I also don't see these two as competing either for Oliver's time or for screen-time - because they're often together and much of their dialogue is with each other, it's usually the case that the more one is on-screen, the more the other will be too.  And they tag-team each other keeping Oliver grounded and in line.  They bring different things to the table, and both are needed equally and add value in their own way.  I personally like Felicity/Diggle scenes just as much as I like Felicity/Oliver scenes or Diggle/Oliver scenes (or all three together!).

 

I've always found Oliver's family relationships very interesting - how he tried to balance his love for them with his obligations to his mission, etc. - and am most bummed out that Moira was killed.  The Oliver/Thea relationship, as his last remaining family relationship, will hopefully be one of the highlights of Season 3.  How they both handle the truth about each other should be meaty story-telling (if they get it right).

 

Anyway, sorry for the super long post!  Kudos if you're still reading!

[MsSchadenfreude]

 

Comparing the type of love someone feels for a lover versus how they feel towards a sibling, or their love for a best friend versus a girlfriend, or whatever the combination might be, is to compare completely different things.

 

I agree with this 1000%.  Diggle and Felicity are not competing with each other for Oliver's affection and attention (or screentime either IMO).  Oliver's feelings for them are separate and distinct as they should be.  So the idea that if Oliver and Felicity have any communication that doesn't include Diggle must mean that Diggle is being marginalized just doesn't work for me.  Anymore then Oliver and Diggle interacting without Felicity (as they have in the past and will in the future) means that Felicity is being marginalized.  Both relationships are important for Oliver and bring something different to the show. As for Oliver's relationship with Thea, Felicity has nothing to do with his treatment of his sister.  Oliver was lying to Thea and evading her questions long before he even met Felicity. That's all on him and hopefully this season Thea finally gets to have it out with Oliver about it.

[wingster55]

I find it very funny that a lot of Laurel and Loliver fans play the advocate for the character of John Diggle and say that Diggle's role was minimized at the cost of olicity/ Felicity, even though it couldn't be further from the truth.

 

Am I the Laurel fan in this situation? News to me. 

 

Obviously Felicity the character isn't keeping Oliver from anything but the writers in s2 had her be the character he spent a good portion of his screen time with (only Sara had more...maybe Slade) from a one on one angle. 

[icandigit]

 

I think it is...in 2.22 when Oliver was having his moment of doubt it was only Felicity that was allowed to motivate him. Diggle was conveniently missing.

Is that the you are not alone,  I believe in you speech? I thought it was a complement to the speech DIggle gave in an early episode. I think it was only Diggle who was talking to Oliver though Felicity was there saying you are not alone. And then in this later episode she adds to Diggle's previously expressed you are not alone, with her own I believe in you. It felt like an example of how both Diggle and Felicity help Oliver.

[willpwr]

I think Oliver didn't spend enough time with Diggle and Felicity in season 2, especially considering they are his partners, they are his support system and are essential to his agenda as well as keeping him alive, sane, etc.

[dtissagirl]

I actually think the most important people in Oliver's life are Diggle and Felicity. I mean, I don't think Oliver categorizes his friends and family in a Top 5 list or anything, but because those are the only two relationships he has that are based on complete trust and honesty, I do see Dig and Felicity's influence on Oliver to be more important than any other character. IMO they are the ones who made me see the potential for redemption in Oliver, because he's a better person when he's closer to Dig and Felicity than to the other characters. No idea if the writers actively wanted it to come off like that, but that's how I see it, and I'm okay with how I see it.

I also have never subscribed to a "family comes first" stance in any fiction I consume, or that the people that knew the protagonist before the journey started are the most relevant. On the contrary, I tend to like make-up families of misfits [Team Arrow] way [WAY] better than blood link or past familiarity. I loved Moira, and I love Thea, but I AM okay if they are not the reason d'etre for Oliver's journey. Doesn't mean he loves them less, it means his narrative growth is not about them. And looking at the two seasons we already got, it looks to me that the writers made a narrative choice around mid-S1 that it's Team Arrow that help with Oliver's hero journey , and the people he knew before the island [family, Tommy, Lances] so far have been set up in the narrative roadblocks that Oliver had to conquer, so he can develop as a character.

I do think that maybe this wasn't the original plan, and that they changed the storyarc when Oliver/Laurel was rejected by the audience and Team Arrow was embraced by the viewers, [and by design of the secrecy, Team Arrow sidelined Moira and Thea. Tommy sidelined himself when he rejected the vigilantism], but since I wholeheartedly agree with the change, I not only accept it but cheer it on.

Edited September 15, 2014 by dancingnancy

[statsgirl]

When Oliver went out fighting crime in 2b, he often went out with just Sara and left Diggle in the lair with Felicity (e.g. ToD).  That's not on Felicity at all.

Unfortunately Moira, Thea and Roy were characters that never really had significant focus.

Moira had a little in s1 but after the Glades her story kinda stagnated regardless. 

 

Not every story has to be about Oliver

I agree that not every story has to be about Oliver but since he is the star of the show, most stories eventually come back round to him, including Walter's friction with Moira and his kidnapping, Moira's secrets, Roy being mirakuru'ed and Thea's conflicts and kidnapping, and those stories usually lead to some sort of growth or development for Oliver.  Diggle's time with the Suicide Squad didn't but that was only one episode and I expect it will cause friction with Oliver next season.  Laurel's addiction arc was about Laurel and Laurel and slightly about Quentin.

 

But if they are going to write stories that are not Oliver-centric, whether I think the time spent on it is worth it depends on how much I enjoy the story.  Looking back over season 2, I think Laurel addiction arc was a huge waste of time because it didn't advance any character, including Laurel who ended up pretty much where she started, and it was badly written and poorly acted when we couldn't tell if she was supposed to be sober or drunk.  Like Isabel's episodes, it ended up being a big nothing, but it took up lots more time.  That time that could have been spent showing Oliver trying to mentor Roy (who got mirakuru'ed and then disappeared for 2 episodes, back for one and then gone again) or anything to do with Moira who I find fascinating as a character and played by a very good actress.  But there was no time spend on  stories for Moira or Roy or Thea.

 

I think Oliver didn't spend enough time with Diggle and Felicity in season 2, especially considering they are his partners, they are his support system and are essential to his agenda as well as keeping him alive, sane, etc.

That's the problem as I see it too, and so did a number of reviewers like Mo Ryan and Alan Sepinwall.  I think eventually MG and AK got the message.  

Occasionally this show gets meta, but never more than Oliver's line in City of Blood "This started with the three of us. It's time we got back to that."

 

And then they promptly had Laurel follow him.

[BkWurm1]

I think what is tricky about Diggle in season 2 is that while I really don't think his screen time compared to Felicity was reduced, he did a lot of solid acting without saying a word.  He still stood out to me because Diggle says an awful lot just through his body language but I can see how someone might have paid less attention to him when he was not speaking. 

 

Over all with getting the Suicide Squad episode devoted to him, I'd say he equaled or topped Felicity in the number of speaking lines but I do think it is fair to say he had less speaking lines in the Arrow Cave than in the first season but of course that would be a given due to all the new faces in the lair. 

[statsgirl]

I think Felicity got more actual lines because she babbles and because she's on the computer speaking into the others' ears so that even if the focus is not on her, she still has lines to say.  (Except in episodes like The Promise where she had only two lines, one deeply cringe-worthy.)

 

Diggle had two episodes about his adventures, Keep Your Enemies Close and Suicide Squad.  And his facial expressions are worth more than words.

 

As Oliver matures and mentor Roy in his turn, Diggle is less needed to be Oliver's mentor so I'm hoping for new directions for Diggle next year.

[Morrigan2575]

Taking the whole speaking lines conversation to the Bitterness Thread (even though I'm not bitter)

[NumberCruncher]

I think what is tricky about Diggle in season 2 is that while I really don't think his screen time compared to Felicity was reduced, he did a lot of solid acting without saying a word.  He still stood out to me because Diggle says an awful lot just through his body language but I can see how someone might have paid less attention to him when he was not speaking. 

 

Over all with getting the Suicide Squad episode devoted to him, I'd say he equaled or topped Felicity in the number of speaking lines but I do think it is fair to say he had less speaking lines in the Arrow Cave than in the first season but of course that would be a given due to all the new faces in the lair. 

 

I agree with this.  That's one of the things I really appreciate about David Ramsey--his facial expressions when he's not speaking often tell the tale as much as any dialogue.  Whenever I'm watching a scene he's in I find myself drawn to him because of it.  It probably helps that he's such a huge physical presence too, LOL.

 

I also believe that's he's had as much focus as Felicity (if not more) in terms of storyline.  Even ignoring S1, I know WAY more about Diggle's personal life and history than Felicity's based on what happened in S2.  Not only did we see him in the Arrow cave scenes but he also got an entire episode (Suicide Squad), at least half of an episode (KYEC), and a whole relationship arc with Lyla.  He's hardly what I would call a "sidelined" character.

[wonderwall]

Am I the Laurel fan in this situation? News to me. 

Lmao I don't know why people think that, you seem more indifferent to Laurel more than anything else :p 

 

Obviously Felicity the character isn't keeping Oliver from anything but the writers in s2 had her be the character he spent a good portion of his screen time with (only Sara had more...maybe Slade) from a one on one angle.

The thing is though, is that it's not fair to put all the blame on Felicity for Oliver not spending time with Diggle or having moments with him. While I did miss the Diggle/Oliver dynamic in season 2, I simply don't think it's because Felicity was a little more featured. I think it's because of sloppy writing, taking on too many things at once, etc. and it's because of this, they didn't have a balanced season therefore characters like Digg were ignored. 

[wingster55]

I also have never subscribed to a "family comes first" stance in any fiction I consume, or that the people that knew the protagonist before the journey started are the most relevant. 

 

I wish more shows had the characters choose family (or friends) over love interests.

Yes Team Arrow is its own family now..but I worry that about future Olicity mudding it up. It's very possible on a CW show. 

[dtissagirl]

I wish more shows had the characters choose family (or friends) over love interests.

Yes Team Arrow is its own family now..but I worry that about future Olicity mudding it up. It's very possible on a CW show. 

 

I am really uncomfortable with this notion of romance is always ruining stories. No matter which way I try to look at it, it always comes back to the same thing for me: romance is majorly [hugely] catered to female viewers. So saying romance and 'shippers ruin a TV show reads to me as your average everyday internalized sexism. It's saying that the part of the story that a majority of women will most likely feel empathy / react positively to is bad for business. And I'm legit not okay with that.

Edited September 16, 2014 by dancingnancy

[quarks]

Has anyone ever asked the EPs why they think the sister swap is ok? Or even the actors? How embarrassing.

 

 

I don't think anyone has ever asked the question, but for what it's worth, I don't think the EPs do think it's ok. Or at least completely ok. They had character after character in the first season tell us over and over again that this was going to keep Oliver and Laurel apart, at least until the show needed to have a reason for Tommy to be even more furious and distrustful of Oliver, and even then, that hookup pretty directly followed the show outright saying, through Laurel, that you don't sleep with your girlfriend's sister unless you are trying to torpedo the relationship. And when did they have Oliver sleep with her sister again? While they were simultaneously building up/blockading Oliver/Felicity - because they needed to torpedo that relationship.  They've also had Diggle saying he just couldn't work things out with his sister-in-law even though his brother is dead, and showing all the awkwardness there and Oliver upset to find that he'd slept with his father's girlfriend

 

Do I think they find the sister swapping as appalling as some people on this forum do? No, definitely not. But I don't think they think it's ok, either - or they wouldn't have constantly brought it up throughout the first season as a reason why Oliver/Laurel have issues, and used it to help torpedo the relationship in the second season.

[Sakura12]

The sister swapping is appalling but you look at almost all shows most of the main characters have either already hooked up with each other or will in the future. Especially on CW shows. TVland is a very small universe where you can only hook up with people in front of you at the time, no matter if they are someone's sibling, another relative, friend or ex. 

Edited September 16, 2014 by Sakura12

[willpwr]

I wish more shows had the characters choose family (or friends) over love interests.

Yes Team Arrow is its own family now..but I worry that about future Olicity mudding it up. It's very possible on a CW show. 

I view Felicity as being all 3, a friend, part of the Arrow family and a love interest.

[tv echo]

I think it's a double standard thing.  It's like polygamy - it's almost always a man with multiple 'sister' wives, and not a woman with multiple husbands.  It's the perception that a woman is more willing than a man to share the same sex/romance partner.

 

So Oliver had sex with both Sara and Laurel, but both girls end up being okay with it (Laurel gives Sara relationship advice, Sara figuratively hands Oliver back to Laurel).  But Diggle had qualms about sleeping with his brother's widow and ultimately broke up with her.  Oliver was icked out after discovering he had had sex with his father's mistress, Isabel.

 

I always thought that Laurel's initial problem with Sara and Oliver hooking up was less about love and more about pride, competitiveness and her fantasy future.  When Laurel and Oliver broke up after Tommy's death, it was due to guilt over his death and not because of Oliver's hook-up with Sara.

[catrox14]

I don't think it's internalized sexism to say that too much romance is bad for a superhero show. I largely consider myself to be a feminist and I am pretty well attuned to casual sexism.

 

I think the amount of romance in the show now is adequate and does not overshadow what the show is about and that is Oliver Queen, Green Arrow, savior of Starling City. Every other character in the show is in Oliver's orbit either as a friend, partner, frienemy, enemy or lover.  I don't want any more romance than is already part and parcel of Oliver's journey or tangentially related to his journey via the people in his orbit.

 

I can watch many other shows for more romance than is featured here.

 

As to the sister swapping, I really don't think the show is by any means saying that the sister swapping is cool or acceptable. Given what happened to Oliver and Sara, I would say that the sister swapping was shown to be a pretty terrible thing that ended up very nearly costing two people their lives and by virtue of their presumed deaths, nearly destroying two families.

 

Sara should have never gotten on that boat, Oliver should have never let her onto the boat, and Laurel should have respected that her sister liked Oliver for more than just a friend and maybe Sara would not have been so compelled to go with Ollie. No one was rooting for Oliver back then either since he was a complete dick for doing what he did.  So I really don't think the show was supporting sister swapping then.

 

Five years later and things have changed.  I was not bothered by Oliver and Sara getting together this time because they are both broken people trying to pick up the pieces and trying to make something decent out of their mangled lives.  They sought comfort in each other's arms. 

 

Laurel held no moral high ground here either. Laurel dabbled in her own psuedo-brother swapping with Tommy when she thought Oliver was dead and even after she found out he was still alive. sort of blood relationships Laurel was brother swapping.  No one in that Quadrangle of Doom 2.0 made good choices about relationships including Tommy because that poor bastard loved Laurel in spite of himself and look what happened to him.

 

So I would argue that if the show can move away from that kind of silly "romance", please do so.

Edited September 16, 2014 by catrox14

[dtissagirl]

I wonder if there isn't a ~lookie lookie, we're so edgy~ thing going on with the sister-swapping as well. Because it's not an isolated instance of possible icky-factor relationships. There's Dig and his sister in law, Thea having a crush on Tommy only to find out they're siblings, Oliver/Isabel/Robert, and even Moira having an affair with Malcolm -- her husband's best friend -- can be compared to Oliver/Laurel/Tommy.

 

There's even accidental incestuous tones to Slade/Shado because Manu was playing him as more of a fatherly figure to her in S1, only to find out he was supposed to be in love with her in S2 [never. not. hilarious!]. So it's all the usual soap opera tropes, but they kept piling them on, I can't help but think they were going for a ~we could have been on cable~ thing. [The answer to which is LOL NO.]

[wonderwall]

Now that we've come to the conclusion that Laurel and Sara probably weren't all that close, compare that to Oliver and Tommy's relationship which -imo- looked like they were really close and were almost like brothers.

 

So with that, do you guys feel that Laurel going back and forth between Tommy and Oliver is reminiscent to what Oliver did by cheating on Laurel with Sara? It definitely isn't as bad, but it definitely has similar qualities...

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

Oliver/Sara/Laurel broke the sister code. Oliver/Tommy/Laurel broke the bro code. Although I didn't hold it against Tommy and Laurel since Oliver was dead.

Oliver and Laurel redux was ridiculous. Oliver's penis has no shame and it is an equal opportunity dick. Pun intended.

Honestly Oliver and his manwhore ways were the reason I didn't want Olicity to happen. However, Felicity redeems Oliver IMO and I do like them together. I just dislike the revolving door he has marked for Lance women in his bedroom.

The Lance girls is what made the Oliver and Isobel hook up ridiculous to me. If we hadn't have had sister swapping, I think Oliver banging his father's mistress would have come across far worse than it did. Instead I'm waiting to find Thea and Tommy once played 7 minutes in heaven together.

[foreverevolving]

But Oliver had no idea he was banging his father former lover. so we can't really put that one on him.

[catrox14]

Now that we've come to the conclusion that Laurel and Sara probably weren't all that close, compare that to Oliver and Tommy's relationship which -imo- looked like they were really close and were almost like brothers.

So with that, do you guys feel that Laurel going back and forth between Tommy and Oliver is reminiscent to what Oliver did by cheating on Laurel with Sara? It definitely isn't as bad, but it definitely has similar qualities...

Oh definitely, which is why I made my comment that Laurel has no moral high ground on this.

[statsgirl]

Tommy at least felt a bit bad about sleeping with Laurel, even after everyone thought Oliver was dead. Laurel was all "I deserve to do what I want since I have the moral high ground because you cheated on me with my sister."

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

But Oliver had no idea he was banging his father former lover. so we can't really put that one on him.

I wasn't suggesting he did. I'm saying the moment was diluted because of the sister swapping. It would have been more vile if familial DNA swapping hadn't already occurred multiple times.

[blixie]

Eh I agreed with Laurel I see no reason she had to feel bad about connecting with Tommy after Oliver, her lying cheating whore of a boyfriend, died taking her spiteful little sister down with him. I also don't blame her for banging Oliver at the end of S1, she and Tommy weren't together, she owed Tommy nothing.

 

Oliver on the other hand was total asshole. It's enough to make me wish Tommy didn't really die and he'll come back to burn Oliver's soul.

[wonderwall]

I'm not really talking about Laurel and Tommy getting together before Oliver came back though  because I don't think that counted (although, I may believe Laurel and Tommy got together in the first place as some misplaced vengeance against the supposed dead). I'm talking about Laurel being with Tommy one episode, then making out with Oliver the next, then being back with Tommy again even though she apparently had heart eyes for Oliver then Tommy broke up with her, then Laurel had sex with Oliver, then Tommy died. 

 

Laurel strung along both Tommy and Oliver which IMO was really unfair to both of them regardless of how much of an ass Oliver is. 

[wingster55]

I'm talking about Laurel being with Tommy one episode, then making out with Oliver the next, then being back with Tommy again even though she apparently had heart eyes for Oliver then Tommy broke up with her, then Laurel had sex with Oliver, then Tommy died.

 

IIRC ...once Laurel got together with Tommy she didn't leave him or make out with anyone else. 

[wonderwall]

But that doesn't really change the fact that she was still stringing Tommy along like a puppy while she was making out with Oliver when she saw his scars... Was it that scene? IDK I tend to lose focus on Laurel/Lauriver parts... Regardless, I didn't really like that :/ 

Edited September 17, 2014 by wonderwall

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

Wasn't Laurel also crushing on the Hood while with Tommy and it was part of Tommy's insecurity concerning his relationship with Laurel. Laurel didn't know the Hood was Oliver but Tommy did and saw it as an obstacle.

[wonderwall]

Which is why when Tommy found out that the Hood was Oliver, he bowed out because he could never compare with that. And I think that's Laurel's fault for not being 100% in her relationship with Tommy. 

 

LOL I decided to tag team, sorry about that :p

Edited September 17, 2014 by wonderwall

[Chaser]

They would have been better off making Laurel and Tommy in a happy and healthy relationship from EP1. No back and forth with Oliver and Tommy. Through Tommy, she learns to forgive Oliver and they build a friendship. It would have added some consistency to Laurel's character and made her (and Oliver) more likable, also it would packed a harder punch when Tommy died.

 

There should be a thread where people pitch 'what ifs…' Of course, they would be so awesome everyone would get mad at the actual show. 

[blixie]

 

really change the fact that she was still stringing Tommy along like a puppy

She wasn't committed to him, she could kiss whoever she wanted, AFAIC that puppy kept going back for more of Oliver's sloppy seconds. I like Tommy but I have zero sympathy for him pursuing someone who had been hung up on his best friend for "half their lives". Ironically of course the chemistry with Colin/Katie was about a 100 times better than what she has with anyone else on the show.

 

ETA: I agree about Tommy/Laurel actually being in a committed happy relationship from the word go in S1, it really would have worked so much better. 

Edited September 17, 2014 by blixie

[statsgirl]

She wasn't committed to him, she could kiss whoever she wanted

She never really committed to him until the very end and I think he knew it which is why he stepped back when he saw her with Oliver in Home Invasion and believed that the combination of Oliver = the Hood was something he was never going to be able to beat.  He was always waiting for her to prefer someone else, Oliver, the Hood, someone else better than him.   And then she proved he was right when she went straight to Oliver when he broke up with her.

 

Yes, he was her little puppy dog because he'd loved her for a long time and she took advantage of it.

Edited September 17, 2014 by statsgirl

[tv echo]

There was a time in Season 1 when I wanted Tommy and Felicity to get together because I thought they both deserved better than Laurel and Oliver.

[KenyaJ]

They would have been better off making Laurel and Tommy in a happy and healthy relationship from EP1. No back and forth with Oliver and Tommy. Through Tommy, she learns to forgive Oliver and they build a friendship. It would have added some consistency to Laurel's character and made her (and Oliver) more likable, also it would packed a harder punch when Tommy died.

 

Yes, this. I didn't actively ship them, but I did like them together. I think Laurel's trajectory on the show would have been completely different (and better) if the writers had gone with this plan. Alas...

[Sakura12]

There were so many things they could've done to make Laurel look better starting from the beginning. They should've had Oliver and Sara be a fun loving trouble making couple that no one in either of the families approved of. They could've still had Oliver flirting partying with different women while also having Sara doing the same thing and maybe even bringing other women to share their bed. Which could've been something Quentin and Laurel didn't know about and could've been a later flashback after we found about Sara and Nyssa if they still wanted that to be a surprise. Laurel could've always hated Oliver and think he was a bad influence on her little sister. Then thinking that Oliver got her sister killed could've fueled her hatred when he came back. However Laurel would've been in happy, healthy relationship with Oliver's friend Tommy having gotten together because they were mourning the loss of her sister and his best friend. 

 

Laurel after getting to know Oliver and realizing that he wasn't the same boy that was on the Gambit could slowly start to develop a friendship with him that had the possibility of turning into more or just staying a friendship. And if they still wanted Sara to be alive, that would've helped the Oliver/Sara relationship make a ton more sense in S2 as well as making the Lance sister's reunion more of a happy one.. 

 

But obviously they were not interested in that and decided to make Laurel a bitter pill that would be hard for most people to enjoy watching. 

[strikera0]

There were so many things they could've done to make Laurel look better starting from the beginning. They should've had Oliver and Sara be a fun loving trouble making couple that no one in either of the families approved of. They could've still had Oliver flirting partying with different women while also having Sara doing the same thing and maybe even bringing other women to share their bed. Which could've been something Quentin and Laurel didn't know about and could've been a later flashback after we found about Sara and Nyssa if they still wanted that to be a surprise. Laurel could've always hated Oliver and think he was a bad influence on her little sister. Then thinking that Oliver got her sister killed could've fueled her hatred when he came back. However Laurel would've been in happy, healthy relationship with Oliver's friend Tommy having gotten together because they were mourning the loss of her sister and his best friend. 

 

Laurel after getting to know Oliver and realizing that he wasn't the same boy that was on the Gambit could slowly start to develop a friendship with him that had the possibility of turning into more or just staying a friendship. And if they still wanted Sara to be alive, that would've helped the Oliver/Sara relationship make a ton more sense in S2 as well as making the Lance sister's reunion more of a happy one.. 

 

But obviously they were not interested in that and decided to make Laurel a bitter pill that would be hard for most people to enjoy watching. 

 

Hmm, I'm afraid that scenario would be too soap operaish for my taste. IMO, if the writers were hell-bent on giving Laurel & Oliver a connection in the past, it would have been better if they had been part of the same clique in high school. Maybe Oliver could have always harbored a bit of a crush on Laurel, but she never took him seriously because of his playboy ways. Then after Oliver returns from the island a changed man, Laurel could have slowly fallen in love with him right in front of our eyes.

 

As far as Oliver and Sara are concerned, I don't think a romantic pre-island history would have been needed to make the pairing believable. If the writers had paired Shado with Slade, they could have used the season 2 flashbacks to develop a real romantic relationship between Sara and Oliver on the island. That would have been enough of a foundation, IMO.

[wingster55]

I don't think Laurel ever strung Tommy. Before dating him she rejected more than once. She did have feelings for Oliver and was intrigued by the Hood..but it didn't really affect her and Tommy. 

[Velocity23]

She did lie to Tommy about having contact with the vigilante. So it did affect her and Tommys relationship. 

[wingster55]

She lied to everyone about that to be fair. 

[Sakura12]

Oliver cheats on Laurel with her sister, they both die when the boat they were on sinks, Oliver's found alive, then a year later Sara's comes back alive. That's a soap opera story as well. So either way it would've been soap operey, I was just finding a way to make Laurel and Oliver and Sara look better than what they gave us.

[strikera0]

Oliver cheats on Laurel with her sister, they both die when the boat they were on sinks, Oliver's found alive, then a year later Sara's comes back alive. That's a soap opera story as well. So either way it would've been soap operey, I was just finding a way to make Laurel and Oliver and Sara look better than what they gave us.

 

Did I ever say it wasn't? The writers should have never written in the sister swapping angle. That's where they went wrong. Plain and simple.

[statsgirl]

 

I don't think Laurel ever strung Tommy. Before dating him she rejected more than once. She did have feelings for Oliver and was intrigued by the Hood..but it didn't really affect her and Tommy.

I don't think she ever really committed to Tommy even when they were together because she was always looking for someone better, whether it was Oliver or the Hood or someone else more exciting and higher status than Tommy.  She said she wanted to fight for their relationship but at the first hint that she could have Oliver instead, she was all over him.

 

I know this isn't conventional wisdom but I think what Oliver did to Tommy by sleeping with Laurel at the end of s1 is much worse than what he did to Laurel, even with the original sister-swapping so much.

 

Oliver was a douche to take another girl along with him on the Queen's Gambit while Laurel was apartment shopping for the two of them but I've always wondered how well he knew Sara before it happened.  Was she part of his social circle with Laurel and Tommy, or did he vaguely know her as Laurel's little sister?  Did he see her in passing when he went to pick up Laurel and Quentin barred him from getting further into the house?  Or was she a regular at his parties at Queen Manor?

 

It can never be right that Oliver took Sara on the Queen's Gambit, but it would have been wrong to have taken any other girl too.  Whoever he took he was just using to avoid being honest with Laurel, and as Laurel said, taking her sister was a sure way to blow up the relationship.  But if Oliver had actually known Sara well before and had a relationship with her as Laurel's little sister, that would be a thousand times worse than if he'd only vaguely known her.

 

What I think Oliver did that was even more wrong was to sleep with Laurel when he knew Tommy loved her.  Tommy was his best friend from childhood, the one who loved him and was genuinely happy to have him back again while Laurel alternated because hating him and resenting that he survived and Sara didn't. 

 

In her fic The Curse of Cuervo, redtoes writes She doesn’t want Tommy to be the kid left behind at recess when everyone else runs off to play. She’s been that kid. No one wants to be that kid.   That's what I see Oliver and Laurel doing to Tommy at the end of season 1, making him that kid, and I don't know which of them I'm more angry at because Tommy of all people did not deserve that.  Oliver had turned into a stone cold killer who took what he wanted without thought for others and Laurel, who professed to care for Tommy, should have done better.

Edited September 17, 2014 by statsgirl

[TanyaKay]

oh she also lied to Tommy about having lunch with Oliver because when Oliver mentioned that to Tommy, who had no inkling that Ollie & Laurel were having lunch without mentioning anything to him, he was pissed and rightly so. Pre island Oliver was a cheater and he never excused his behaviour, Laurel is supposed to be this prissy Ms. Goody Two Shoes but she was cheating on Tommy (at least mentally) and the minute Oliver looked at her, she climbed him like a tree even though she professed her love to Tommy a day before and asked him to reconsider the break up.