Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[AyChihuahua]

8 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

Oh noes kismet! And here I thought we were safe!

I have watched 2A at least 10 times (though not recently, even early good episodes bum me out now), and no, there was no flirting or anything prior to the lunge. They were pure old friends/battle buddies until she showed up in the lair while he was training at the end of 213.

I saw Oliporter sex gifs/pics, and they bummed me out more than I expected, meaning at all. I really liked that he was so faithful to Felicity even before they were together, in S3. I get it, he's trying to move on, yadda yadda, but I still hate it. There was so much potential for Olicity to be special before the idiotic BMD and now both of them banging others. Also, I didn't think Oliver looked like he hated it at all. He looked totally normal to me...not enraptured, but not miserable.

[tv echo]

The Sara/Oliver relationship was understandable. They had shared a horrific experience together that bonded them in a way that no one else could understand. It didn't mean that they were right together as a couple. They were too similar and would've pulled each other down, as Sara recognized.

The problem with Tinah is that she and Oliver have only known each other for one week and already they're sharing confidences and she talks/acts like she's known him for years. They've both suffered losses ("island"), but they didn't have a shared experience and they didn't grow up together.

[Midnight Lullaby]

I agree. Oliver and Sara shared a connection that, even if the lounge came sort of out of nowhere, justified going for the romantic route. Oliver and Tina would only be because comics or because of new age appropriate attractive woman. Not saying it's impossible, never say never with those writers, but the situations are very different imo.

I wasn't bummed at all because of the post sex scene between Oliver and the reporter. It was kinda funny to me. He looked extremely uncomfortable. I don't know if it was because she kept nagging him for informations or because it will end up with Oliver revealing he was playing her all along or it's the actor's fault but he looked more comfortable with LL in season 1 and given their chemistry that's saying something.

[AyChihuahua]

15 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I agree. Oliver and Sara shared a connection that, even if the lounge came sort of out of nowhere, justified going for the romantic route. Oliver and Tina would only be because comics or because of new age appropriate attractive woman. Not saying it's impossible, never say never with those writers, but the situations are very different imo.

I wasn't bummed at all because of the post sex scene between Oliver and the reporter. It was kinda funny to me. He looked extremely uncomfortable. I don't know if it was because she kept nagging him for informations or because it will end up with Oliver revealing he was playing her all along or it's the actor's fault but he looked more comfortable with LL in season 1 and given their chemistry that's saying something.

I was only answering the question of whether Sara and Oliver flirted before the lunge, not whether the lunge/relationship was believable. I mostly didn't have a huge problem with it, and quite liked Sara until Arrow became the Oliver and Sara Show.

I'm bummed that he had sex with someone else, period. I enjoyed his sexual fidelity to Felicity even when they weren't together. And, if he's been playing the reporter (which I doubt, I think they're going the magic penis route), that's so totally gross and unnecessary to me. She's not a supervillain, she's just a reporter. Do what normal politicians do to prevent reporters from publishing exposes!

[Midnight Lullaby]

2 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

I was only answering the question of whether Sara and Oliver flirted before the lunge, not whether the lunge/relationship was believable. I mostly didn't have a huge problem with it, and quite liked Sara until Arrow became the Oliver and Sara Show.

I'm bummed that he had sex with someone else, period. I enjoyed his sexual fidelity to Felicity even when they weren't together. And, if he's been playing the reporter (which I doubt, I think they're going the magic penis route), that's so totally gross and unnecessary to me. She's not a supervillain, she's just a reporter. Do what normal politicians do to prevent reporters from publishing exposes!

The Sara/Oliver part wasn't about your post, I was just adding to the discussion.

I understand that, I guess I don't really care so I find it funny. It would be gross or Oliver will end up looking dumb, but there are no other options. It's a silly plot but still that scene last night made me honestly laugh. It looked like Oliver was impersonating a mummy. It was also weird in a funny way how eager she was for answers, LOL.

[AyChihuahua]

2 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

The Sara/Oliver part wasn't about your post, I was just adding to the discussion.

I understand that, I guess I don't really care so I find it funny. It would be gross or Oliver will end up looking dumb, but there are no other options. It's a silly plot but still that scene last night made me honestly laugh. It looked like Oliver was impersonating a mummy. It was also weird in a funny way how eager she was for answers, LOL.

I've thought Oliver was dumb as a box of pyrite rocks since he told Nyssa that Thea was the daughter of the evil guy Nyssa was trying to kill, aka "Hey Nyssa, lemme tell you about this person I love who'd make a perfect hostage for you to snatch, for no strategic or tactical advantage whatsoever. I just feel like sharing." (And man, leaving one working parachute right there for RAG to use when the whole damn plan was to take RAG/the virus down in a plane crash? One of the dumbest things I have ever seen on tv.) So I'm used to him being stupid. But for this dude who banged anyone with a pulse for years to remain celibate bc he hoped one day to be with this one woman...I liked that. I mean hey, I basically hate the show now, so it's no biggie, but I expected to laugh about the Oliporter sex, and I just really didn't.

[lemotomato]

I'm saying this as someone who hates the reporter with a fire of a thousand suns and thinks that Oliver is dumb as bricks for dating her: I don't understand why Oliver should be expected to maintain "sexual fidelity" to Felicity when a) she dumped him b) they've been broken up for almost a year c) she moved on with someone else and d) she shut him down when he suggested that she might be holding out hope that they'll reunite.

Edited February 9, 2017 by lemotomato

[Cleanqueen]

32 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

I'm saying this as someone who hates the reporter with a fire of a thousand suns and thinks that Oliver is dumb as bricks for dating her: I don't understand why Oliver should be expected to maintain "sexual fidelity" to Felicity when a) she dumped him b) they've been broken up for almost a year c) she moved on with someone else and d) she shut him down when he suggested that she might be holding out hope that they'll reunite.

Also I actually applauded Oliver for not sleeping with her right away and holding out on putting out. They actually made it seem like he only slept with her because she wanted to sleep with him. Where as Felicity had already given Billy keys to her apartment. Felicity moving on quickly was her way of not dealing with her true feelings, oliver was still not yet ready to fully commit to someone even if it was just sex. Ever since saying ILY to Felicity, Oliver just views sex and relationships differently if it isnt with Felicity. 

Edited February 9, 2017 by Cleanqueen

[tv echo]

Billy was a plot contrivance, nothing more. Last summer, when WM was asked about Oliver & Felicity reconciling, she said some BS about how they don't have time to deal with a relationship because he's the Mayor & GA and she's dealing with Havenrock. Yet next thing we know, she's in a relationship with Billy and subsequently Oliver's in a relationship with Susan.

[lemotomato]

5 minutes ago, Cleanqueen said:

Also I actually applauded Oliver for not sleeping with her right away and holding out on putting out.

You mean he wasn't actually a sociopath that got turned on from killing Felicity's boyfriend then went to the reporter's place to sex her up? Imagine that.

[wonderwall]

8 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

You mean he wasn't actually a sociopath that got turned on from killing Felicity's boyfriend then went to the reporter's place to sex her up? Imagine that.

[Cleanqueen]

13 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

You mean he wasn't actually a sociopath that got turned on from killing Felicity's boyfriend then went to the reporter's place to sex her up? Imagine that.

Yeah because of a supposed spoiler he had to have done it even when producers and stephen denied it. I even saw a tweet suggesting that line about them not sleeping together was added on later...i couldn't stop laughing. 

[wonderwall]

Just now, Cleanqueen said:

even when producers and stephen denied it.

Remember, when they denied this, it was purely damage control.

[kismet]

Related to earlier posts, I do agree with people that the O/S relationship was special and meaningful, but for me it was best as platonic. I don't think they made good romantic partners for each other or even friends with benefits. I do think the lunge came out nowhere from a timing & plot place. But I did understand the origins of the relationship. I also was very happy when they went back to being just friends.

BACK to the reporter -

I haven't watched last nights episode, it might be awhile. So I guess its canon, OQ sleeps with the wrong women in Russia?? And in about 2-3 episodes she'll turn on him. And I predict a season finale moment of O/F potentially reconnecting. Another hallway scene is in our future, betcha it will be part of the secret plan to take down the bad guy.

I'm sorry, I just don't understand why the show felt the need to have new romantic relationships for O & F this season. The show claimed to not have time for romance. But yet we have how many new relationships and dead lovers this season?? And sorry show, but I want to see believable relationships not just for plot romances. Billy & FS were for plot. OQ & reporter were for plot. For plot is not romance, its just for plot. And I stopped watching shows for plot when I grew up and could control what I watched on TV.

Edited February 9, 2017 by kismet

[tangerine95]

I wasn't bothered by Oliver and Susan having sex aside from the grossness of her investigating him and him already being stupid for chosing to date a reporter that already tried to expose him once. Olicity has been broken up for a while and Oliver did wait until he lost all hope for getting back together with Felicity so in that sense it didn't taint olicity for me.  I was more bothered by Billy and Felicity hooking up in the loft because that's where her and Oliver lived together. 

But I do hate that this is what they chose to write for olicity post a break up. There were way better storylines they could have gone with, much more romantic and actually worthy of the kind of love they built up olicity to be the past 4 seasons. Imo doing the whole moving on thing while they ignore olicity used to be together and engaged because they're afraid of actual romance this season is the worst way to deal with it. 

[Cleanqueen]

6 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

Remember, when they denied this, it was purely damage control.

Yes because they wanted to deny a story that was already filmed and shot just because the fandom tweeted mere minutes after the episode aired.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, lemotomato said:

I'm saying this as someone who hates the reporter with a fire of a thousand suns and thinks that Oliver is dumb as bricks for dating her: I don't understand why Oliver should be expected to maintain "sexual fidelity" to Felicity when a) she dumped him b) they've been broken up for almost a year c) she moved on with someone else and d) she shut him down when he suggested that she might be holding out hope that they'll reunite.

This. I mean, I'd rather they didn't sleep with anyone else at all but they clearly wanted them to attempt to move on so it was gonna happen. I can't really begrudge either of them having sex with someone else, especially after so long apart.

My only problem comes from either of them developing real feelings. The thought of them falling in love with someone else will ruin things for me. It almost feels like it will lessen O/F's love/relationship in some way? IDK. I just don't want that.

I guess I will forever be stuck on those real vows at their fake wedding. Going back on that doesn't sit right with me.

Edited February 9, 2017 by Guest

[Cleanqueen]

13 minutes ago, Angel12d said:

This. I mean, I'd rather they didn't sleep with anyone else at all but they clearly wanted them to attempt to move on so it was gonna happen. I can't really begrudge either of them having sex with someone else, especially after so long apart.

My only problem comes from either of them developing real feelings. The thought of them falling in love with someone else will ruin things for me. It almost feels like it will lessen O/F's love/relationship in some way? IDK. I just don't want that.

I guess I will forever be stuck on those real vows at their fake wedding. Going back on that doesn't sit right with me.

And so far we know that Felicity didn't have any deep feelings for Malone and Oliver is clearly not that in to Suzy. I would say they've been casually seeing each other for several months and there hasn't been any real progression. I won't even buy her not using the info against him because she has "feelings for him" because there are no apparent feelings from either of their side. I can see her not using it because she thinks he is a good man who is doing good for the city but nothing beyond that.

[Morrigan2575]

19 minutes ago, Cleanqueen said:

 I can see her not using it because she thinks he is a good man who is doing good for the city but nothing beyond that.

It's weird because Susan Williams is a Green Lantern character (Hal's Sistee-in-law) so I can't see them making her a villain but she's extremely shady. 

I just looked the character up because I couldn't remember how she was connected to GL.

http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Susan_Williams_(New_Earth)

Quote

A reporter for "Behind the Scenes Magazine", Sue was assigned to find a story behind Jack Jordan's race to be elected district attourney. After witnessing Green Lantern, she got the idea that Jack's youngest brother Jim was really the super-hero.

Sue and Jim started a romance and married, while Sue was still convicned he was Green Lantern. The couple had a son, Howard, followed by daughter Jane a few years later. Sue eventually learned the Green Lantern wasn't Jim, but his middle brother Hal.

I can actually see parts of her comics story in the show.

Reporter ✔

Finding story behind Oliver as Mayor ✔

Getting romantically involved with Oliver ✅

Thinks Oliver is GA ✅

I mean they're similar but not exact, since Oliver is GA. Unfortunately, this doesn't give me a clue as to where they're going with her. 

Edited February 9, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[statsgirl]

5 hours ago, AyChihuahua said:

I'm bummed that he had sex with someone else, period. I enjoyed his sexual fidelity to Felicity even when they weren't together. And, if he's been playing the reporter (which I doubt, I think they're going the magic penis route), that's so totally gross and unnecessary to me. She's not a supervillain, she's just a reporter. Do what normal politicians do to prevent reporters from publishing exposes!

I knew that was inevitable as soon as it became apparent that they were both going to get new love interests.  It's the part of the standard trope that I always hate -- get the couple together for most of a season, break them up for a stupid reason, keep them apart by first one party being in a relationship with someone who is wrong for him/her, and then when that's over the other party gets into a relationship with the wrong person while party A gets personal growth.  I fast forwarded through most of seasons 9 - 11 of ER for that reason.  (Luka and Sam's relationship was so toxic that when she killed an antelope in 'Canyon City', a friend of mine re-named the episode "I Wish I Were The Antelope")  And then they get together for a brief time till something else happens to break them up.

It doesn't make sense to me that Oliver, who stayed celibate for more than a year because he loved Felicity, would get into a new sexual relationship that fast if we're supposed to believe he still loves her, even less sense that Felicity would get into a more-than-casual relationship within a few months of ending her engagement.  Most people, on finding that their fiancee lied to them and then tried to manipulate them back via a fake wedding, would say "Nope, not interested in jumping back into the water, I'm going to stay on my own for a while" especially someone like Felicity who stayed out of relationships for six years after Cooper's death, but that's how these writers roll.

2 hours ago, Cleanqueen said:

Yeah because of a supposed spoiler he had to have done it even when producers and stephen denied it. I even saw a tweet suggesting that line about them not sleeping together was added on later...i couldn't stop laughing. 

For me, it wasn't because of a spoiler but because 1. Susan was wearing a revealing negligee on a cold winter's night; 2. she initiated the kiss; 3. the director cut to black. That's standard Old Movie Shorthand for 'they had sex' and I find it impossible to believe that MG and WM, not to mention GB, didn't know that.   They wanted to have their cake and eat it too -- to imply that Oliver and Susan had sex but also plausible deniability in case the scene was received badly.

11 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Sue and Jim started a romance and married, while Sue was still convicned he was Green Lantern. The couple had a son, Howard, followed by daughter Jane a few years later. Sue eventually learned the Green Lantern wasn't Jim, but his middle brother Hal.

So she didn't find out he wasn't the Green Lantern until several years into their marriage?  Between this and Barry not telling Iris he's The Flash, it appears that honesty isn't a requisite for a superhero.  (Also Sue must be monumentally stupid unless Jim disappeared every time the Green Lantern showed upto save the world. And wasn't she disappointed to find out that h er husband isn't a superhero but just an ordinary guy when she married him thinking he was the Green Lantern?)

[lemotomato]

So she dates, marries, and has kids with a guy that she thinks is keeping a huge secret from her the whole time? No wonder comic canon romances don't translate well onscreen.

[lemotomato]

4 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

For me, it wasn't because of a spoiler but because 1. Susan was wearing a revealing negligee on a cold winter's night; 2. she initiated the kiss; 3. the director cut to black. That's standard Old Movie Shorthand for 'they had sex' and I find it impossible to believe that MG and WM, not to mention GB, didn't know that.   They wanted to have their cake and eat it too -- to imply that Oliver and Susan had sex but also plausible deniability in case the scene was received badly.

Why would they need plausible deniability when they'd already filmed 512 before 509 even aired?

[Mellowyellow]

7 hours ago, AyChihuahua said:

I have watched 2A at least 10 times (though not recently, even early good episodes bum me out now), and no, there was no flirting or anything prior to the lunge. They were pure old friends/battle buddies until she showed up in the lair while he was training at the end of 213.

I saw Oliporter sex gifs/pics, and they bummed me out more than I expected, meaning at all. I really liked that he was so faithful to Felicity even before they were together, in S3. I get it, he's trying to move on, yadda yadda, but I still hate it. There was so much potential for Olicity to be special before the idiotic BMD and now both of them banging others. Also, I didn't think Oliver looked like he hated it at all. He looked totally normal to me...not enraptured, but not miserable.

I TOTALLY know how you feel and I find myself NEEDING some sort of a resolution so I can either go back to enjoying S3 again or just block this show out of my brain forever. They were pretty damn epic in S3. More epic than I had EVER expected to see in any western show really. I remember squealing like a banshee to Hubby about it. It was like Chinese series levels of epic which I hadn't really seen before in western shows. 

I've raged and ranted before but now I've come to terms that this is the CW so I am kinda filing anything dodgy that they do (ie banging other people, acting like they don't know each other) under "CW brainwashed em." I think if they get back together I'll just watch it with my own viewing goggles and conveniently forget all dubious happenings.

Also helps whenever I think of Gossip Girl! I never shipped Chuck/Blair but I can imagine the torment those poor shippers went through! That was some pretty bad stuff they wrote for that ship! So I'm just going to blame anything bad on terrible writing and the CW. Poor Oliver and Felicity are being brainwashed!!!!!! 

I am still happy about the finger poke and the hug. Which is lame compared to the epicness of S3 but I will take what I can get! Plus I tell myself Felicity is slowly resuming contact with him again! He looked like he didnt expect her to hug him and then went with it! Please TPTB put them back together!!!! I can fix everything else in my head!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Midnight Lullaby]

6 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

Why would they need plausible deniability when they'd already filmed 512 before 509 even aired?

They didn't but only they knew that. But given how credible Wendy is I don't think not believing her at the time was that crazy.

Personally I was starting to hope we dodged a bullet and the most cringeworthy scene was behind us, LOL. Well now it is I guess.

[kismet]

23 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

It's weird because Susan Williams is a Green Lantern character (Hal's Sistee-in-law) so I can't see them making her a villain but she's extremely shady. 

I just looked the character up because I couldn't remember how she was connected to GL.

http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Susan_Williams_(New_Earth)

I can actually see parts of her comics story in the show.

Reporter ✔

Finding story behind Oliver as Mayor ✔

Getting romantically involved with Oliver ✅

Thinks Oliver is GA ✅

I mean they're similar but not exact, since Oliver is GA. Unfortunately, this doesn't give me a clue as to where they're going with her. 

What I get from that is they've ditched Batman and now they are ripping of Green Lantern. Wonder what their next rip-off, sorry, inspiration will be?

[statsgirl]

4 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

Personally I was starting to hope we dodged a bullet and the most cringeworthy scene was behind us, LOL. Well now it is I guess.

Don't poke the bear.  There is still plenty of room for cringe-worthy "Oliver confesses his feelings for/to Susan" scenes.  Or just more bed scenes.

[Midnight Lullaby]

Just now, statsgirl said:

Don't poke the bear.  There is still plenty of room for cringe-worthy "Oliver confesses his feelings for/to Susan" scenes.  Or just more bed scenes.

Nooooo go away I don't accept that hahahahaha 

[AyChihuahua]

35 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

I knew that was inevitable as soon as it became apparent that they were both going to get new love interests.  It's the part of the standard trope that I always hate -- get the couple together for most of a season, break them up for a stupid reason, keep them apart by first one party being in a relationship with someone who is wrong for him/her, and then when that's over the other party gets into a relationship with the wrong person while party A gets personal growth. 

I mean, I predicted it as soon as I heard about the casting. (I expected it back in 505, though.) From a character perspective, I've always said it doesn't bother me that either of them sex up someone else (though obviously Oliver's choice of sex partners is quite stupid). I'm just mildly bummed from a story perspective. I didn't want either of them to sex up anyone else, regardless of how much I knew they would. It harshes the one true love vibe and makes something that I once found special...pedestrian.

[AyChihuahua]

42 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

I TOTALLY know how you feel and I find myself NEEDING some sort of a resolution so I can either go back to enjoying S3 again or just block this show out of my brain forever. They were pretty damn epic in S3. More epic than I had EVER expected to see in any western show really. I remember squealing like a banshee to Hubby about it. It was like Chinese series levels of epic which I hadn't really seen before in western shows. 

I've raged and ranted before but now I've come to terms that this is the CW so I am kinda filing anything dodgy that they do (ie banging other people, acting like they don't know each other) under "CW brainwashed em." I think if they get back together I'll just watch it with my own viewing goggles and conveniently forget all dubious happenings.

Also helps whenever I think of Gossip Girl! I never shipped Chuck/Blair but I can imagine the torment those poor shippers went through! That was some pretty bad stuff they wrote for that ship! So I'm just going to blame anything bad on terrible writing and the CW. Poor Oliver and Felicity are being brainwashed!!!!!! 

I am still happy about the finger poke and the hug. Which is lame compared to the epicness of S3 but I will take what I can get! Plus I tell myself Felicity is slowly resuming contact with him again! He looked like he didnt expect her to hug him and then went with it! Please TPTB put them back together!!!! I can fix everything else in my head!!!!!!!!!!!!

You're a very nice person.

[lemotomato]

50 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said:

I TOTALLY know how you feel and I find myself NEEDING some sort of a resolution so I can either go back to enjoying S3 again or just block this show out of my brain forever. They were pretty damn epic in S3. More epic than I had EVER expected to see in any western show really. I remember squealing like a banshee to Hubby about it. It was like Chinese series levels of epic which I hadn't really seen before in western shows. 

I have to disagree with you about the epic-ness of Olicity in season 3. We probably have different viewpoints because you watched it all at once and didn't have to endure the season waiting week-to-week for new episodes, dashed expectations, the craziness happening in fandom, and MG's sporadic troll-y Q&As. There was a lot of criticism of their relationship in season 3-- that Oliver was toying with Felicity if he expressed his feelings for her, or that Felicity gave up and didn't fight for Oliver. There was Oliver shutting her out the whole season and working with Merlyn against her wishes. There was Felicity not telling Oliver that QC was going to be re-named Palmer Tech and not warning him about Ray building the ATOM suit.  There was Oliver joining the LoA and making Felicity think that he was going to marry someone else and that he left her and all their friends to die in a cell. There was dealing with fan speculation that Felicity was going to leave the show with Ray for the new spin-off or that Laurel becoming BC meant that she was going to reunite with Oliver romantically. 

IMO, season 3 sucked, and made Olicity really messy. As much as I loved their relationship in season 4A, they were a perfect couple only during the first 7 episodes because the show ignored everything they did to each other in season 3. I feel like 4A was so great that fandom put Olicity on a pedestal and willingly forgot all the messiness that happened before.

Edited February 10, 2017 by lemotomato

[thegirlsleuth]

7 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

I mean, I predicted it as soon as I heard about the casting. (I expected it back in 505, though.) From a character perspective, I've always said it doesn't bother me that either of them sex up someone else (though obviously Oliver's choice of sex partners is quite stupid). I'm just mildly bummed from a story perspective. I didn't want either of them to sex up anyone else, regardless of how much I knew they would. It harshes the one true love vibe and makes something that I once found special...pedestrian.

I was surprised how much it bothered me--I live on the west coast, and knew it was coming, so quite literally went into the next room and waited for it to be over.  I think my problem was twofold. First is the problem you identified:  it reduced an epic love to something pedestrian.  Second, like Anatoli, I think oaths are forever. While I know they weren't officially married, Oliver's fake wedding vows seemed heartfelt.  I didn't like Felicity with Detective Tiny Hands, but it didn't bother me in a visceral way because she never made vows.  I'm aware that this is an irrational position, and neither logical or fair, but there it is.

[kismet]

6 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

makes something that I once found special...pedestrian.

Pedestrian. That's exactly how I feel. The show especially the relationships (platonic & romantic) have become pedestrian. And the relationships were always the best part of the show.

Points to you for the excellent word choice. :)

[statsgirl]

Me three.  They ruined it, like ruining a perfect painting by adding this bit, and that bit, and just some more things to make it more complicated and ending up with less overall.

I didn't think season 3 was epic in terms of Olicity, but I think Oliver's feelings for Felicity were.  He screwed up a lot over the  decisions he made for her, but his feelings for her were true.  It was Felicity or no one for him and since he felt he couldn't have Felicity, he had no one.

Edited February 10, 2017 by statsgirl

[insomniadreams88]

What bothered me more is that after that OTA scene in the house in Russia, Oliver then had the conversation with Diggle at the bar while Felicity was off elsewhere. And even after Rory tells Oliver he thinks Felicity crossed the line and Oliver knows something's going on with her, it's like as soon as Diggle seemed better, Oliver just also mentally crossed Felicity off the list of people to worry about because ... I don't know? ... and that was it. The relationships among the "core characters" just seem off this season, and I think that part of 512 highlighted that. 

[Mellowyellow]

1 minute ago, lemotomato said:

IMO, season 3 sucked, and made Olicity really messy. As much as I loved their relationship in season 4A, they were a perfect couple only during the first 7 episodes because the show ignored everything they did to each other in season 3. 

You know what's funny? I couldn't enjoy 4A! By that time I had found this board and I think you guys were speculating about BMD and the break up so I watched 4A with this icky icky icky cloud over my head! Couldn't enjoy any of it!

S3 will always and forever be my best season because I ADORED Ray as a LI! It was like messy drama with my ship but with a LI I loved so I could not have been happier! And the LI was all about Felicity moving on while Oliver pined so it was ALL KINDS OF AWESOME!!!!!!! I get your gripe with it but man they threw in some really dramatic epic stuff that got me all fired up (in a good squeeing sort of way). The forehead kiss before he went off the die, seeing her face when he fell off a cliff, well lets not say goodbye!!!!! LOVE!!!!!!! 

The only criticism I have is that I felt pretty bad about how Ray was treated. But yes I know you guys probably don't care! I am a HUGE Ray fan so it always broke my heart a bit when Oliver asked Felicity to drive off and he was just standing there. Poor Ray! 

13 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

You're a very nice person.

Awww!!! *huggles*

We must survive this together!!!!!!! We will survive this together!!!!!!!!!

Off topic but I was telling hubby since this season is so traumatising I wondered if I needed to bunker down and do nothing but write fanfic for a week to finish everything I started before I embark on a raging rampage again. 

[kismet]

5 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

The relationships among the "core characters" just seem off this season, and I think that part of 512 highlighted that. 

Remember when there used to be discussions of who was OTA or who was part of the original TA? There are moments this season, when I think they have just decided they were over that and so began the Parade of Newbies are the Real Team Arrow.

The relationships between the core characters are off because I think they are shifting the core from under the audience and hoping we will either not notice or just not care. Shifting the dynamic seems intentional.

[LeighAn]

8 minutes ago, insomniadreams88 said:

What bothered me more is that after that OTA scene in the house in Russia, Oliver then had the conversation with Diggle at the bar while Felicity was off elsewhere. And even after Rory tells Oliver he thinks Felicity crossed the line and Oliver knows something's going on with her, it's like as soon as Diggle seemed better, Oliver just also mentally crossed Felicity off the list of people to worry about because ... I don't know? ... and that was it. The relationships among the "core characters" just seem off this season, and I think that part of 512 highlighted that. 

Or an episode only has so many minutes and they will carry on with the Oliver is concerned about Diggle and Felicity plot in the next episode. Felicitys storyline is going to last until at least 5x20 supposedly after-all.

As an aside on other talk:

Oliver sleeping with Susan isn't a statement on Oliver not giving a shit about his friends. It was a plot necessity to set up/continue the Susan is getting closer to discovering who Oliver is plot. And they are dating, so sleeping together is an eventual step. Just like Felicity sleeping with Billy. And yet I still believe Felicity loves and cares about Oliver more then anybody else even though she didn't remain "celibate" for him.

Oliver crossed moral lines this episode so he's friends wouldn't have to because he was feeling powerless to help them and seeing them losing themselves in their own darkness. 

He was able to reach Diggle, but he has yet to reach Felicity because she is NOT ready to be saved or reached yet.

[statsgirl]

Has Oliver noticed that he didn't reach Felicity?  It seemed to me that once he'd given his speech and Diggle had backed down, Oliver assumed all is good.

[way2interested]

3 hours ago, statsgirl said:

Has Oliver noticed that he didn't reach Felicity?  It seemed to me that once he'd given his speech and Diggle had backed down, Oliver assumed all is good.

From what I see, there wasn't really opportunity for him to. 510 kicked off her arc, and she was acting pretty determined to catch Prometheus, but Oliver understood what was going on, knew that she knew what he was thinking, and they caught not-Laurel in the end even though they didn't catch Prometheus. He knew that she was having an emotional response to wanting to get back at Prometheus and reacted the only way he could (promising her that they would catch Prometheus). By the end of that episode, Felicity was more calm, cracking jokes, and telling Oliver that she appreciated his optimism.

With no idea what Felicity was even doing in 511 except that it was a "long story," and without having the knowledge on about a dozen articles talking about Felicity's dark arc, Oliver could probably think that there's nothing wrong with Felicity. Even in the beginning of 512, Felicity was still acting in ways comparable to before (insisting on coming with Oliver to places, getting stressed over her tech stuff, getting snarky under stress), showing no real out of the ordinary behavior. Once he saw stuff that was out of the ordinary (Felicity acting on her own, her not being concerned that Diggle was wailing on a man for information), then he called out both Diggle and Felicity. Both of them then did selfless acts rather than making ends justifying the means decisions at the end of the episode (which was actually more of a symbol for Diggle's growth, but keeping in mind that Oliver's more concerned that Felicity's "crossing lines" that he doesn't even know how/when/why), so the idea of Diggle and Felicity going down dark paths could be considered done in Oliver's mind.

Later, Diggle reaffirms what Oliver told them and agreed that the three of them make each other better. He never got this confirmation from Felicity, but he could figure that if Diggle understood and took to heart what he said, that Felicity, who "understands him more than almost anyone," took it to heart too. Not following up on it with Felicity could then basically come down to either 1) him thinking this was done like 510 and/or 2) Not having conversations like that with her one-on-one because "they don't have that kind of relationship anymore." He has no idea what Felicity's even doing and no idea that this arc is even a thing, so I'm not completely blaming him on not noticing.

Edited February 10, 2017 by way2interested

[LeighAn]

Well I'm sure when Felicity does the next questionable thing to draw his attention he will see that she still needs him/help. I mean this is a 23 episode show and Felicitys storyline is supposedly last until 5x20.

People have wanted Felicity to have her own sustained storyline for ages and yet when it happens they are questioning why Oliver hasn't figured it all out and fixed her in one or two eps. 

Oliver only knows what Felicity has allowed him to see and that's not a lot. She's isolated herself from Oliver and Diggle because she knows they are the ones that will stop her from going down the rabbit hole and right now she doesn't want to be stopped. She knows that they would see Helix as dangerous, she recognises the danger herself but right now doesn't care because she feels it's a dangerous tool worth having if it means she can use it for good. 

Oliver knows something is going on but is frustrated by the fact that he doesn't know what is going on with her and because of their past romantic relationship isn't sure if he had the right to push or expect anything from her.

Oliver turning to Tinah about his concerns for Felicity is no different then Felicity turning to Curtis about Havenrock. Felicity opened up to Curtis about thing she maybe wished she could open up to Oliver about but felt because they were no longer together she didn't have the right to lean on him and unburden herself to him about Havenrock. Oliver opened up to Dinah about things he wants to say to Felicity but thinks is no longer his place or that given his own darkness he has the right to say. Only difference being that Dinah pushing Oliver to talk to Felicity worked where Curtis was not as lucky. Because again Felicity is not ready to.

[statsgirl]

Oliver knows that Diggle beat up that soldier; I can't remember, does he know what line Rory was talking about that Felicity crossed or what specifically she did?

Oliver speaking to Dinah about Diggle and Felicity is similar to Felicity speaking to Curtis about Havenrock only in that they both spoke to other people.  Unlike Oliver's brief relationship with Dinah, Felicity has known and trusted Curtis as a confidante for more than year.  Curtis knows her story because he's lived much of it with her.  And Havenrock is an event for which Felicity feels responsible.

But as well as Oliver barely knowing Dinah, Diggle and Felicity are people and responsible for themselves, not events.  Oliver seems very me! me! me! in that scene. Yes, Prometheus is trying to mess with his head but he seems more concerned that he is responsible for leading Diggle and Felicity down a dark path rather than Diggle and Felicity are going down a dark path, how is it going to affect them as people he cares about?  It's almost like Oliver needs Diggle and Felicity to be in the light so he himself can be saved and didn't taint them with his darkness.

Edited February 10, 2017 by statsgirl

[Sunshine]

We were not shown that Oliver was told about the line Felicity crossed.  

Spoiler

I think he finds out in 5.15 after she does something else.

 

[LeighAn]

Oliver doesn't know what Felicity did. Just that she did something. Rory got interrupted before he could fully narc.

They had to have Oliver open up to someone anyone about Diggle and Felicity so they could have him vocalise his concerns and fears about Delicitys toying with the Dark Side to highlight and emphasise that Delicity are spiralling. 

That it included him waxing on his own man pain I wasn't a fan of but again it was all in service of pushing Oliver to that moment with OTA where he tells them not to lose there way and be like him, so that then leads to the show having Diggle make the statement that Diggle Felicity and Oliver TOGETHER make each other better people. 

Probably as foreshadowing of something important for later on in the season. My guess being that'll it be both Oliver and Diggle that remind Felicity of who she is.

Also the fact that Oliver bringing darkness to the people he cares about is the Big Bads entire evil plan this season and the writers who are as subtle as a sledgehammer need to reiterate that in case the audience forgets that is Prometheus whole thing.

Dinah was not important in that scene with Oliver. It was not about her character or her and Oliver. It was about using her as a plot device to keep the momentum of the main storyline of Oliver Diggle and Felicitys evolving friendship. It would have been better coming from someone who knew them all longer then a hot minute but cest la vie the writers want Tinah over and done with as soon as possible ergo shoving her on the team likes she's always been there.

Oliver is not going to know and fix everything wrong with Diggle and Felicity at episode 12 with 11 episodes to go. They are pacing it out and Olivers actions or lack thereof in this episode don't preclude him from seeing and handling things differently in upcoming episodes. This is the first time he's really confronted head on that Felicity and Diggle are at risk of slipping. It's something that will probably percoulate through at the very least sweeps.

Edited February 10, 2017 by LeighAn

[BkWurm1]

6 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

Off topic but I was telling hubby since this season is so traumatising I wondered if I needed to bunker down and do nothing but write fanfic for a week to finish everything I started before I embark on a raging rampage again. 

Fanfic can be very therapeutic, so if you can write, do it.  I'm currently in a place with the show where I can't write anything since everything IMO remains up in the air. If they put them back together, I can write again.  If they drive a nail into the coffin, I can write again and make my own fix.  But right now I can't even read anything set between 4-8 and now.  Honestly, I can barely read any Arrow related fanfic at all.  

[BkWurm1]

Quote

People have wanted Felicity to have her own sustained storyline for ages and yet when it happens they are questioning why Oliver hasn't figured it all out and fixed her in one or two eps. 

My complaint isn't that Felicity's storyline is ongoing or that he didn't fix it right away, but the hoops they have to jump through to keep Oliver from commenting about what she's doing. Hoops that make him look unfeeling or dumb. The only reason he's not specifically talking to her about what she did is because he doesn't know and he doesn't know not only because Rory got interrupted, but because when Diggle wanted to know what line Felicity crossed, Oliver shut the question down and said it doesn't matter.  

I'm frustrated by the hands of plot because of plot that I'm seeing.  Oliver should have asked what she'd done.  That he didn't doesn't make sense when John thought they should know.

Instead of just having Oliver seem weirdly indifferent to the details, I wish we could have had Felicity downplay it when Rory wasn't there to say differently or have Oliver hear it and not really understand that what she did (the threat) perhaps wasn't the issue so much as the stone cold look in her eyes when she did it.  Something that since Oliver wasn't there to see it, he wouldn't know to really be worried about.  (Cause I think what Rory was really worried about was not being sure if she was bluffing) Just something to make what happened and Oliver's reaction (or lack of further action) make more sense to the characters without making them look bad.  

[kismet]

16 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Fanfic can be very therapeutic, so if you can write, do it.  I'm currently in a place with the show where I can't write anything since everything IMO remains up in the air. If they put them back together, I can write again.  If they drive a nail into the coffin, I can write again and make my own fix.  But right now I can't even read anything set between 4-8 and now.  Honestly, I can barely read any Arrow related fanfic at all.  

I'm there too... I thought I could get around it be alternative universe fics, but even those are hard. Somehow reading the magical connection of O/F in fanfic and then watching their hollow interactions on the show only exacerbates my anger.

[Mellowyellow]

22 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

Fanfic can be very therapeutic, so if you can write, do it.  I'm currently in a place with the show where I can't write anything since everything IMO remains up in the air. If they put them back together, I can write again.  If they drive a nail into the coffin, I can write again and make my own fix.  But right now I can't even read anything set between 4-8 and now.  Honestly, I can barely read any Arrow related fanfic at all.  

Haha I yoyo between "Geez I'm in a good mood. Look aren't they cute in this chapter" to "Omfg it's all a pack of lies lies lies I should just delete delete delete."

Yeah......shipping has totally been good for my mental health :p

[EmilyBettFan]

I really love the part where Diggle is punching on the guy, Oliver stops him then Felicity comes in and says "well did he say anything?!" Then Oliver looks at her like "what the hell?" 

Then he goes off to give more of his soul away to the Bratva so his friends and teammates don't lose theirs in the process. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

They write Oliver as oblivious at times..for example I remember when in season 2 he was planning to have dinner with Dig and Carly not realizing that something was wrong until Felicity spelled it out for him. It's useful for the plot but it's not inconsistent imo that he doesn't notice something is up with his friends immediately. It might be consistent because the writers used it for the plot consistently though, LOL.

I also think he is prone to think that Dig and Felicity are better than him, they screw up less, they make better decisions so they don't really need him. I also think he doesn't assume the worst even when they are acting in an unusual way..he is more used to them supporting him and being the voice of reason than them needing his moral support. It's a mix of not thinking highly of himself and being a bit self-centered imo.

[insomniadreams88]

7 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

My complaint isn't that Felicity's storyline is ongoing or that he didn't fix it right away, but the hoops they have to jump through to keep Oliver from commenting about what she's doing. Hoops that make him look unfeeling or dumb. The only reason he's not specifically talking to her about what she did is because he doesn't know and he doesn't know not only because Rory got interrupted, but because when Diggle wanted to know what line Felicity crossed, Oliver shut the question down and said it doesn't matter.  

I'm frustrated by the hands of plot because of plot that I'm seeing.  Oliver should have asked what she'd done.  That he didn't doesn't make sense when John thought they should know.

Instead of just having Oliver seem weirdly indifferent to the details, I wish we could have had Felicity downplay it when Rory wasn't there to say differently or have Oliver hear it and not really understand that what she did (the threat) perhaps wasn't the issue so much as the stone cold look in her eyes when she did it.  Something that since Oliver wasn't there to see it, he wouldn't know to really be worried about.  (Cause I think what Rory was really worried about was not being sure if she was bluffing) Just something to make what happened and Oliver's reaction (or lack of further action) make more sense to the characters without making them look bad.  

 

6 hours ago, EmilyBettFan said:

I really love the part where Diggle is punching on the guy, Oliver stops him then Felicity comes in and says "well did he say anything?!" Then Oliver looks at her like "what the hell?" 

Yep. They're making it really obvious that they don't want anyone to talk to Felicity about it yet. The only person who knows? Rory, and he's gone. Even Curtis is oblivious - and he was with Felicity and Rory. There was enough in 5x12 that someone other than Rory (Oliver, Diggle, Curtis, even Tinah now knows something's up since Oliver tells her there is, so why don't they have her suggest, "hey, why doesn't one of you talk to her?" since she's too new to do that) should've noticed and talked to Felicity, but no one did. Since Oliver was the one giving the "you're better than me" speech and Rory told him she crossed the line, it would make sense it would be him.

But Diggle doesn't get a pass either, though you could argue he was distracted by the general. He was there when Felicity asked if he got anything from the guy he tortured and he was there when Oliver mentioned she crossed a line.

Also, has Diggle thanked Felicity for getting him out of prison? Since that OTA scene in the lair was played like it was the first time they saw each other, it doesn't seem like it.

They really are just doing the minimal amount of work possible with some of these relationships this season.