Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[AyChihuahua]

Ok let me ask you this - how much of Laurel's awful character development do you think is on the actress vs the writers?

...

I could be wrong.  It could be that once the writers knew the chemistry was wrong between SA and KC they had no interest in making her character work.  I just strongly suspect it WAS possible but KC had no interest in making it happen so the writers didn't either.

I think the idea is that if there's this terrible chemistry void, then nothing was going to work, bc this is not an ensemble show. Everyone orbits around Oliver, so once it was clear that KC and SA are terrible just being in a room together, there wasn't anything anyone could really do. It's a byproduct of the whole idea of the show, which has a very clearly-defined lead, and one actor/character who's bad almost all the time with him. So I'd say KC couldn't have made it better, really, but she could have at least avoided making it worse. Instead, she dove headfirst into worse, by, from what I can tell, continually pushing L/O. I mean almost kind of embarrassingly pushing it.

[dtissagirl]

Ok let me ask you this - how much of Laurel's awful character development do you think is on the actress vs the writers?

I divide the blame equally. Probably also with whoever exec at the CW who backed KC for the role as well. I agree with AyChihuahua that once the chemistry was lacking, there wasn't much anyone can do about it.

 

Actually, all things considered, I think they made the best possible choice in a sucky situation. Minimizing Laurel's presence and giving Dig and Felicity the main roles alongside Oliver in the A plot was a great solution to a problem they couldn't solve.

 

But if it's a matter of the chemistry wasn't THERE between SA and KC AND KC wouldn't allow the writers to adjust OUT of making her Oliver's love interest than the blame is on her as well.  What I've been talking about are ways I think Laurel could have stayed relevant and even become BC without being Oliver's LI.  And I think if KC could have wrapped herself around that concept and dedicated herself to that - people probably wouldn't be hoping she is in the grave right now.

 

I could be wrong.  It could be that once the writers knew the chemistry was wrong between SA and KC they had no interest in making her character work.  I just strongly suspect it WAS possible but KC had no interest in making it happen so the writers didn't either.

This is where I disagree. They removed Laurel from the love interest role in 201. That conversation Laurel and Oliver had at Tommy's grave was the death of L/O. Whether KC didn't see it like that or part of the audience didn't see it like that -- the show never ever ever tried to make L/O happen romantically again since that moment. I mean -- two episodes later Laurel tried to kiss Oliver and he ran away faster than Barry. L/O died with Tommy.

 

And they also went out of their way to make sure Laurel becoming Black Canary had absolutely nothing to do with Oliver, romantically or otherwise. They did that. But they also did that while making sure Laurel WASN'T RELEVANT. Because they didn't want her to be. Because for her to be relevant she needs to be part of Oliver's narrative, and she hasn't been since S1.

 

And I guess this is the crux of this discussion -- you think they should have found a way to keep Laurel relevant. I think THE BEST THING THEY EVER DONE was to make sure Laurel wasn't relevant. I think keeping her strictly in B-plot land was a pretty smart idea, actually. I think it made the show better.

 

And I get the bonus of looking at a weirdass character construction that was caused by external reasons. Laurel is fascinating to me because she's a failed character that ended up in 80 episodes of television. I want people to write papers about it, but I don't want Laurel to be relevant to the story in any way.

[SmallScreenDiva]

And I guess this is the crux of this discussion -- you think they should have found a way to keep Laurel relevant. I think THE BEST THING THEY EVER DONE was to make sure Laurel wasn't relevant. I think keeping her strictly in B-plot land was a pretty smart idea, actually. I think it made the show better.

 

Edited March 9, 2016 by SmallScreenDiva

[nksarmi]

I see what you are saying - and if you don't like a character, of course you don't want that character to be used more.  But I think if a character is going to be on my television for 80+ episodes - I want to enjoy them on some level.  Rather I enjoy them as a villain or a hero or whatever - I want to enjoy them.  I no longer enjoy Malcolm.  I want to pull my hair out every time Oliver interacts with him.  I want someone - anyone - on this show to try to kill him.  Incorporating him into the storyline has made them write Oliver as stupid as a door for two seasons.  It's just - ugh!

 

In much the same way, if I'm going to have Laurel around - I want her presence to make sense and I would have preferred to like her. I think they could have done that if they wanted to but they choose not to.  And having 80+ episodes with a character who is AT BEST tolerable does not make a show better.  It turns out that perhaps they had no choice but to keep her.  But why they couldn't FIX her - I just don't understand.  What I am trying to figure out is if the actresses demands and view of her role on the show impacted their inability to FIX her.

 

ETA: And I should say that I don't think making her enjoyable and making her prominent are the same thing.  People on these boards have thought of a hundreds of better ways to write Laurel and they don't involve making her part of the A plot persay.  In season two, her story could have been all about Sara not Oliver.  In season three, her story could have been avenging Sara's death and being pitted against Oliver as he tried to hide who killed Sara from her.  Etc.... Laurel could have been in the B plot but enjoyable instead of being in the B plot and annoying.

Edited March 9, 2016 by nksarmi

[wonderwall]

I see what you are saying - and if you don't like a character, of course you don't want that character to be used more.  But I think if a character is going to be on my television for 80+ episodes - I want to enjoy them on some level.  Rather I enjoy them as a villain or a hero or whatever - I want to enjoy them.  I no longer enjoy Malcolm.  I want to pull my hair out every time Oliver interacts with him.  I want someone - anyone - on this show to try to kill him.  Incorporating him into the storyline has made them write Oliver as stupid as a door for two seasons.  It's just - ugh!

 

In much the same way, if I'm going to have Laurel around - I want her presence to make sense and I would have preferred to like her. I think they could have done that if they wanted to but they choose not to.  And having 80+ episodes with a character who is AT BEST tolerable does not make a show better.  It turns out that perhaps they had no choice but to keep her.  But why they couldn't FIX her - I just don't understand.  What I am trying to figure out is if the actresses demands and view of her role on the show impacted their inability to FIX her.

 

Idk if there's any fixing the character when the actress still thinks Laurel and Oliver are soulmates haha. Can you imagine her interviews S5+? Oliver/Felicity would be married with kids and she'd still call Laurel/Oliver soulmates... That kind of disconnect between character/actor just means that they'll probably never work out. 

[nksarmi]

Idk if there's any fixing the character when the actress still thinks Laurel and Oliver are soulmates haha. Can you imagine her interviews S5+? Oliver/Felicity would be married with kids and she'd still call Laurel/Oliver soulmates... That kind of disconnect between character/actor just means that they'll probably never work out. 

 

And somewhere (I can't remember where now lol) that is where I got on this train of thought.  That maybe it really was KC's fault that Laurel didn't work out because SHE refused to let go of the idea that Laurel and Oliver were soul mates.

[dtissagirl]

It's a matter of perspective. They had a structural problem that got solved by removing Laurel from Oliver's story. That was the fix. It wasn't about fixing Laurel, it was about fixing the narrative structure.

 

And I legit think the writers think that making Laurel BC fixed her.

[wonderwall]

And somewhere (I can't remember where now lol) that is where I got on this train of thought.  That maybe it really was KC's fault that Laurel didn't work out because SHE refused to let go of the idea that Laurel and Oliver were soul mates.

 

I think it goes deeper than that. KC claims she's a method actor but nothing in her interviews shows me she actually understands her character. KC fails to dig deep into Laurel's motivations (which explains the lack of nuance), fails to want more and better for Laurel. Fails to truly give Laurel a personality. She never looks under the surface to fully understand her character. In the end I think KC is rather lazy... She put more thought into her BC outfit than she ever did with her character and I think that's a shame.

Edited March 9, 2016 by wonderwall

[BunsenBurner]

I remember after watching the pilot and thinking TPTB would replace KC with a new actress because she and SA just did not mesh with each other. I was very disappointed when she returned and was further disappointed when they reshot the Gambit sinking with CL and KC was still there. I did not know the GA/BC mythology but couldn't figure out how they could ever make it work with the SA/KC pairing. I then watched the SDCC and other videos with both KC and SA and could see their passive aggressive behavior towards each other although it was her more so than him. 

 

At one of the SDCC's a question was asked of all the actors who was the most fun or something like that and they all but EBR and KC said Emily. KC looked really shocked that they hadn't said her because she thought she said ME. I thought that was telling. But the thing that annoyed me about her was how she seemed to throw herself at AK and MG it was kind of creepy. I guess what I'm getting at is that every time I see her in public situations her creep factor keeps going up because the way she acts in public doesn't make sense. I do feel that some of her problems are the result of the writers but I also believe she just doesn't fit with this type of genre and maybe if she were to try something else it might work. 

 

In other words, by my watching her public appearances after already not liking her acting style made it so I couldn't find anything redeemable about her. Sad since I have never felt that way about an actor.

Edited March 9, 2016 by BunsenBurner

[statsgirl]

From the media thread:

I don't know why some writers think its a good idea to have a sibling swapping story line ever? Between Oliver sleeping with both Sarah and Laurel to Diggle possibly  (pretty sure he did) sleeping with Carly who was Andy's wife/widow. Wonder what those conversations were like in the writers room. There is also "The Vampire Diaries" with Elena first while a human sleeping with Stefan and upon turning into a vampire sleeping with Damon. Ah yes there is also although only once on "The Originals" with Klaus sleeping with an impregnating Haley and then Haley turning around and sleeping with his brother Elijah. Must be some sort of phase that some of these writers go through. I don't know why anyone would think its a good idea for any siblings to want to dirty the sheets with someone her sister or his brother had previously slept with. On the c'mon how gross can you be scuzball scale that ranks pretty high IMO.

 

I wonder if Sara slept with Oliver out of spite, jealousy, adventure and stupidity.  I mean she did want Oliver first but wanting and having are two very different things and she was old enough and had no mental challenges that would have kept her from knowing the difference.

 

Laurel I think really did love Oliver. Her biggest problem IMO was she never stood up to Oliver for fear of losing him which allowed him to know he could do whatever he wanted and she would always take him back.

 

Diggle I don't know maybe he thought as the older brother he should be taking care of his brother's widow and his nephew and it eventually started out as caring moved into romance, and then he was bought back to reality when he realized he was still wanting revenge more than love. Maybe I'm just talking out my ass here to and really have no idea why they tried that story line lol.

 

Not even going to try to get inside the mind of Julie Plec and Caroline Dries on those other 2 shows!

My headcanon is that Sara had a longstanding crush on Oliver and she finally had the opportunity to be with him.  She'd wanted him from before Laurel started dating him, even if he didn't remember her (oh, Oliver) but even so, I thought she was going to turn down the trip until Laurel did her "la la la fingers in my ears Why can't you be happy for me?" thing.  Sara may have thought that she understood Oliver better than Laurel did and maybe this was her chance to prove it to Oliver.

 

For all their on again/off again relationship, I don't think either Oliver and Laurel knew what love was before the island.  Oliver was too immature and Laurel had her heart set on a life she'd decided for herself.  It wasn't till Tommy was dying that Laurel understood what love was.

 

I think they were really going with Diggle in love with his brother's widow until they found that AMA has tons more chemistry with DR. One thing you have to give this show credit for, they are masters at taking advantage of serendipity.

[hogwash]

Oliver and the Lance sisters before the Gambit sank is so confusing to me thanks to S02. So Sara was OK with being side chick #10(?) while Laurel was cool(?) with 10 side chicks as long as she was the official girlfriend and, eventually, the wife?

[Guest]

Building on the discussion from the media thread...

 

For me, the sister swapping was probably the main thing I don't think the O/L pairing could come back from. I know it's a manner of preference and yeah, I do think it's skewed one way based on gender (not completely but there is a lot of evidence that male fans don't have a problem with it) and I seriously do not know what the writers were thinking. I don't think I'll ever understand. I hate cheating storylines as a whole and that would have tainted the whole thing for me anyway but I do wonder if, without the sister swapping, I might have, eventually, been convinced if O/L had any chemistry. I can't really guess though. Maybe?

 

But the fact that Oliver was once balls deep in Laurel's sister (and then repeated the same mistakes all over again in s2) was just the end. Nope. Never. Add that to the history of cheating, getting a girl pregnant (who was actually Laurel's friend, ugh!) AND the complete lack of chemistry and warmth between SA and KC, I was never going to root for them. Ever. 

 

So while I do think it was a big problem with casting, I also believe the writers failed them before they even began. So in that respect I do feel sorry for fans who wanted their comic book pairing represented on screen because, sadly, they really never stood a chance and that was a fault of the writers' own making. 

Edited March 16, 2016 by Guest

[wonderwall]

But the fact that Oliver was once balls deep in Laurel's sister (and then repeated the same mistakes all over again in s2) was just the end. Nope. Never. Add that to the history of cheating, getting a girl pregnant (who was actually Laurel's friend, ugh!) AND the complete lack of chemistry and warmth between SA and KC, I was never going to root for them. Ever. 

Just a quick nitpick, I don't think Oliver made a mistake when he went back to Sara in S2. I think he made a decision and I don't think it's one he ever really regretted making. It's what he needed at the time, and Laurel never came close to his mind when he made the decision to be with Sara, nor did she ever cross his mind when he was with Sara. So it's not really a mistake, but from Laurel's PoV it might've been an injustice. 

[Guest]

Just a quick nitpick, I don't think Oliver made a mistake when he went back to Sara in S2. I think he made a decision and I don't think it's one he ever really regretted making. It's what he needed at the time, and Laurel never came close to his mind when he made the decision to be with Sara, nor did she ever cross his mind when he was with Sara. So it's not really a mistake, but from Laurel's PoV it might've been an injustice. 

 

Yeah, I probably could have worded that better. 'Mistake' probably was the wrong word to use.

 

But what I meant was they had framed it as Sara and Oliver both being sorry and feeling guilty for what they did to Laurel but then just kind of did the same thing all over again? Okay, technically not the same thing because Oliver and Laurel weren't together so there was no cheating involved but it was still a weirdly similar situation. Surely they had to know that Laurel would feel uncomfortable about it, especially as she herself slept with Oliver again not even a year previously. There was definitely still an element of going between sisters, even if Oliver had no intention of ever going back to Laurel. I guess, for me, it's more about the messy history.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Guest

[lemotomato]

I've never had a problem with Oliver choosing Sara the second time because it felt like two people who had gone through a very unique experience together finding comfort in each other while they're both emotionally isolated from their loved ones. Sara had just dumped the LoA and her girlfriend and then received a less than warm welcome from Laurel. Oliver had just learned his sister was only his half sister and his mother had been lying to him for most of his life. The story framed it so that Oliver and Sara were the only ones that understood each other. I don't think they thought about how it would affect Laurel at all (at least not until the dinner in 214). Maybe they should have, but, well, Oliver was at his most emotionally oblivious at that point, and Sara just had a gotten screamed at and probably thought she'd never get back into Laurel's good graces anyway.

 

Maybe I should have been offended on Laurel's behalf, but the whole glass throwing, "You stole my life!" outburst when she sees Sara for the first time pretty much killed any sympathy I might have had for her. 

Edited March 16, 2016 by lemotomato

[Guest]

I guess I'm maybe not explaining myself properly because I had no real problem with Oliver and Sara in s2. I've said many times here I didn't mind their 'lunge' in 213 (unlike a lot of fans) because when you look at it from their viewpoint, they had both been through some things, they had a unique history, they understood each other. I appreciate all of that. But I do also think the whole situation was messy, simply based on the O/L/S history and the fact that they're sisters. I can see why O/S gravitated towards each other (though they lost me on having a long term relationship) and I can see why Laurel was furious about it. I see both sides. And even though I do think they were finding solace in any way possible and that's okay after everything they'd been through, I also believe O/S should have been more sensitive about it.

 

As I said, messy situation from every angle tbh.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Guest

[ComicFan777]

I think the problem for me is that Oliver and Sara didn't consider how it could affect other people.  At the same time, the show seemed to frame it that Oliver and Sara wanted to mend things with Laurel, I think it would have been better if Sara and Oliver individually worked towards mending their relationships with Laurel before being together. Although I am not LL fan, I can understand how it would be very difficult for her to see Oliver and Sara being together right after Sara got back.  It would definitely open old wounds and TBH, if my sister did what Sara had done twice, it definitely wouldn't sit well with me.  If I had a sister, I would think sisters come before boys - I would have expected sisterly loyalty, especially since Oliver and Sara weren't in love with each other. After seeing how much the situation still hurt Laurel, I would have wanted Sara to focus on trying to fix things with Laurel before jumping into bed with Oliver.  It's a different story if Oliver and Sara were actually in love with each other, but they weren't.  They were only seeking comfort, so it really seemed like they didn't care how it might affect others around them.  I just don't think comfort requires sleeping with each other, if it means hurting others that you are close to, but that's just me.

[tarotx]

A second Chance for Sara was rejected by Laurel. Sara felt she had no hope and was a lost Kitten. It was just recently she felt taking snake Venom was her best choice of action. When you feel lost you connect to the people you feel something for.  Oliver didn't think he could be with the girl he had feeling for and recentlly found out that his mom had a sexual relationship with Malcolm and that Thea was Malcolm's daughter. He pretty much felt he had nothing left to lose and connected to Sara's need to feel. 

 

Laurel was angry and never let herself heal and still even more so after Tommy died. She needed comfort but didn't seek it out with people but inside the bottle. Tommy, the one person she had felt a connection to, died because Laurel didn't listen sane voices of reason. 

Edited March 16, 2016 by tarotx

[lemotomato]

I guess my issue is that I was wholly unsympathetic to Laurel at that point in the season, when she was at the depths of pill-stealing, drinking, and lashing out at anyone trying to help her. So yeah, maybe Oliver and Sara should have considered Laurel's feelings before they started dating again. But she was completely unconcerned about what Sara had gone through, so why should she be the only one owed consideration?

 

And I just realized that's another reason why I never really bought into all the "Laurel and Sara are sisters and they love each other sooooo much!" hype. Just like how Oliver and Laurel's first moments on screen together were so toxic it tainted how I saw their relationship afterwards, Sara and Laurel were so thoughtless and self-centered in their initial scenes with each other their sudden reconciliation and closeness seemed fake to me. 

Edited March 16, 2016 by lemotomato

[Guest]

Laurel definitely lost my sympathy when she threw that glass at Sara. I still can't believe that happened. Your sister returns from the dead, she's been through hell, and you throw a glass at her head? Um, okay. Makes sense. NOT. Ugh, awful. Just no.

 

However, I don't know if I can view this as a situation where O/S shouldn't consider Laurel's feelings simply because she didn't consider theirs, you know? Just because Laurel was lashing out and literally the worst, doesn't mean she wasn't owed some kind of respect or at the very least some better handling of the situation so she wasn't so blindsided at the Lance family dinner from hell, although I totally do understand those who think the opposite. I mean, yeah, I do agree that Laurel was at the height of selfishness there but I also see why she'd be mad.

 

It's a really good job none of this matters now. LOL. We're sister swapping free!

Edited March 16, 2016 by Guest

[EmilyBettFan]

I remember after watching the pilot and thinking TPTB would replace KC with a new actress because she and SA just did not mesh with each other. I was very disappointed when she returned and was further disappointed when they reshot the Gambit sinking with CL and KC was still there. I did not know the GA/BC mythology but couldn't figure out how they could ever make it work with the SA/KC pairing. I then watched the SDCC and other videos with both KC and SA and could see their passive aggressive behavior towards each other although it was her more so than him.

At one of the SDCC's a question was asked of all the actors who was the most fun or something like that and they all but EBR and KC said Emily. KC looked really shocked that they hadn't said her because she thought she said ME. I thought that was telling. But the thing that annoyed me about her was how she seemed to throw herself at AK and MG it was kind of creepy. I guess what I'm getting at is that every time I see her in public situations her creep factor keeps going up because the way she acts in public doesn't make sense. I do feel that some of her problems are the result of the writers but I also believe she just doesn't fit with this type of genre and maybe if she were to try something else it might work.

In other words, by my watching her public appearances after already not liking her acting style made it so I couldn't find anything redeemable about her. Sad since I have never felt that way about an actor.

Is there a video of that question being asked?

[bijoux]

Just because Laurel was lashing out and literally the worst, doesn't mean she wasn't owed some kind of respect or at the very least some better handling of the situation so she wasn't so blindsided at the Lance family dinner from hell, 

 

It's really the dinner that makes me facepalm at Sara and Oliver. If they wanted to be together for whatever reason at their point, they were certainly free to do so. And it's not that I think they were obliged to keep it a secret or something, just that they should have put a little more thought in it and used a lighter touch. I still liked them both better than Laurel at that point, but really, why you so dumb?

[lemotomato]

It's a really good job none of this matters now. LOL. We're sister swapping free!

Huzzah! That's another point in the plus column for Olicity, really. 

[Guest]

Huzzah! That's another point in the plus column for Olicity, really. 

 

#Blessed.

[looptab]

 She'd wanted him from before Laurel started dating him, even if he didn't remember her (oh, Oliver)

I don't think Oliver didn't remember Sara. I believe he said he didn't remember the party Sara went to, when Laurel called the cops.

 

Yeah, I probably could have worded that better. 'Mistake' probably was the wrong word to use.

 

But what I meant was they had framed it as Sara and Oliver both being sorry and feeling guilty for what they did to Laurel but then just kind of did the same thing all over again? Okay, technically not the same thing because Oliver and Laurel weren't together so there was no cheating involved but it was still a weirdly similar situation. Surely they had to know that Laurel would feel uncomfortable about it, especially as she herself slept with Oliver again not even a year previously. There was definitely still an element of going between sisters, even if Oliver had no intention of ever going back to Laurel. I guess, for me, it's more about the messy history.

I agree. Laurel was absolutely the worst, but what Sara and Oliver did was shitty. No matter that at that point Oliver and Laurel weren't together, Sara was still her sister, not to mention the horrible precedent their whole thing had. I think I said it before, if there was a time to throw glasses, the dinner was it.

[Sakura12]

Laurel had every right to be pissed. I just didn't care.

Laurel didn't care what Sara had been through, her and Oliver were on the same boat. Did she think Oliver got stranded on a hellish island while Sara went on a trip to the carribean.

Then when she saw that Sara was covered in enough scars that a doctor thought she was in a war. Who does Laurel go too, Oliver.

I think both sisters cared more about Oliver than each other. The sudden switch to making it about the sisters in season 3 (after throwing Sara at the garbage so we couldn't see them bonding or anything) made no sense. That's why Laurel "honoring" Sara did not feel real or earned.

These writers seem to operate under the assumption that us women will just like women interacting. They don't need any build up or bonding like the menfolk. We'll just be happy because women are talking to each other.

Edited March 16, 2016 by Sakura12

[dtissagirl]

What's hilarious to me is I've recently binge-watched Revolution, and there's brother-swapping involved [although one of the brothers is dead-dead for real], and I was totally 'shipping the two lying cheaters by S2.

 

So it's not really that I have some moral objection to the trope in fiction. I don't need fiction to set examples for me, and I don't need fictional relationships to start from a healthy point for me to enjoy them. What I need is to be entertained/fascinated by the story, and, specifically when I'm 'shipping, I need to see that those two characters make each other better together. Even more so if they start from a horribly problematic place.

 

Arrow failed me both in providing any sort of entertainment with L/O and L/O/S , and in making me want to 'ship Oliver with either L or S. In fact, whenever Oliver got close to either Lance sister romantically, I basically wanted to bash his head in instead of liking him.

[looptab]

Oh, me neither. If I like the couple, I'll get over pretty much anything. Not the case with the two couples in question, though. I was way more interested in the possibility of Moira and Walter rekindling their relationship than any of that :)

[dtissagirl]

Basically -- I can enjoy the hell out of a toxic relationship if it entertains me [one of my current favorite 'ships is Eleanor and Jasper on The Royals. Most terriblest badwrong 'ship ever. I love them]. I only have a problem when the relationship is toxic to *my enjoyment*.

[hogwash]

They choose Sara/Oliver over Laurel/Sara then had both Sara and Laurel's most significant relationship in the Flarrowverse be with each other. Oliver got around but Sara sleeping with him is a whole different ballgame than Samantha, that dude's fiancée, etc. It's way too personal and mean and petty. I don't need any explanation from douche face Ollie but all through S01, I wondered what kind of person would go after her sister's boyfriend and what their relationship even looked like considering it got to that point. Cause I'll never believe that douche face Ollie was that tempting. Those S02 Lance sister flashbacks did a great job on both accounts. Then wrapped it up with a neat bow by having Laurel apologize while Sara just stood there. Dumb and no buildup whatsoever. Like Roy and Oliver. And Oliver's S03 "Woe is me. I can't be with my lady love" shtick.

I put too much thought into this. This is the same show that got star-crossed lovers and BM drama from "But I still feel like I can trust you. Why is that?"

[BunsenBurner]

Is there a video of that question being asked?

Yes there is. I'll try and find it.

[AyChihuahua]

It's really the dinner that makes me facepalm at Sara and Oliver. If they wanted to be together for whatever reason at their point, they were certainly free to do so. And it's not that I think they were obliged to keep it a secret or something, just that they should have put a little more thought in it and used a lighter touch. I still liked them both better than Laurel at that point, but really, why you so dumb?

I think my problem with O/S hooking up fairly blatantly is that THEY still cared about Laurel. I totally didn't...I've disliked her since the pilot...but THEY did. So that's pretty idiotic and selfish behavior if they wanted to make up with her. If they hadn't cared about her feelings, which I would have been fine with bc I thought she was a hag, then it would have all made sense, but they basically wanted to have their cake (each other's nekkid bods) and eat it too (a more or less positive relationship with Laurel), which is nonsensical.

 

All my problems with Laurel, really, revolve around the idea that I basically get why she would have serious problems with pretty much everyone on the show, but that leaves me utterly failing to understand why she spends any time with any of them, which means I don't understand why she's on the show.

Edited March 16, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[kismet]

Honestly, the whole sister swapping in s1 was a little skivvy, but I could get over it. The lunge in s2 was fine with me, but it meant they could never go back to O/L because double sister swapping is just a little too much for me. Once you have chosen the other, you can't return to the original one. Also they way they were so deceptive about it and inconsiderate of LL made it too much for me to imagine LL wanting to ever be with OQ again or believing that she wants to reconcile with her sister. I don't understand why the writers chose to prioritize O/S over O/L & S/L but they did and that's on them.

 

It was a dumb idea considering the next season they then pinned all of their hopes on wanting the audience to believe that S/L's sisterly relationship was a deep love to span the challenges of death and time. After s2, I barely understood why S/L were even friendly to each other, never mind considering each other a sister. I have a sister and the way LL & SL treated each other in s2 was neither sisterly or friendly. I'm half surprised LL waited until after the "autopsy" to steal the mask ~ I expected her to rip it right off SL's face in the alleyway.

[statsgirl]

Oliver and Sara getting together in s2 made perfect sense because it was what they both needed.

 

What didn't make sense was Sara suddenly being so afraid of Laurel that she needed Oliver beside her at the family dinner but I'm assuming that was a plotty plot need so that Oliver could tell Laurel he was done with her and start her going to AA.

 

From the media thread:

Oh and incidentally, recently a different interpretation of those ten girls was given to me.  I was told that Oliver hadn't cheated on Laurel with 10 girls, he merely had dated 10 girls before Laurel.  Thus making BM the first one she really knew about besides Sara and thus why Laurel was so emotional about it. 

Nice try on the part of the person who said that but I find it hard to buy.  How does that fit into Oliver's "I've loved you for half my life", implying that they had been together since about age 15?  If Oliver wasn't cheating on Laurel, then they were constantly breaking up and making up again.  There's no way to spin those 10 girls into a healthy relationship with Laurel.

 

Not to mention, Samantha was a one night stand who Oliver appears to have forgotten about until she got pregnant.  If Oliver was faithful to Laurel the rest of the time, cheating with Samantha would have been a much bigger deal, bringing out all sorts of guilt in Oliver how he had done Laurel wrong and promises to never cheat again. Instead, a few months later, he's back at cheating with Sara and having a lot of fun with it.  That argues serial cheater.

 

Nope. Does not compute.

 

I do think Sara understood Oliver better than Laurel. She knew exactly what type of guy he was and still liked him. Then after they both came back from the dead, they understood each other even more. SA and CL played it, in a way that showed that Oliver and Sara have a bond that goes beyond friendship but wasn't romantic. Even old man Oliver and Sara had that. KC and SA were not able to portray any kind of chemistry at all. That is why they stopped following the comics. And didn't seem to care to go back to it after Season 1.

To me, it boils down to Sara being the Black Canary in everything but name.  She understood Oliver better and more realistically before the Gambit went down and she came from the same self-hating ninja place afterwards.  I think if they hadn't found EBR in season 1, the show could have done well with Oliver/Sara as the keystone relationship.

Edited March 16, 2016 by statsgirl

[looptab]

bringing this over from the media thread:

Oh and incidentally, recently a different interpretation of those ten girls was given to me.  I was told that Oliver hadn't cheated on Laurel with 10 girls, he merely had dated 10 girls before Laurel.  Thus making BM the first one she really knew about besides Sara and thus why Laurel was so emotional about it. 

You know, I just rewatched the scene, and it could very well be what they meant. Except, it doesn't really add up with what they had told us about Laurel/Oliver until that moment: the prom picture, the two of them talking about having been together forever in the s1 fb when she pushes him to move in together. The show has never really been clear on what relationship they had, but those things suggested a longlasting relationship. Who knows, maybe they actually were on-again-off-again.

Edited March 16, 2016 by looptab

[hogwash]

Getting with a new girl whenever he was off with Laurel is way more flattering than the cheating. I wish they had gone with that. But he was definitely with Laurel when he knocked up Samantha. Moira even assumed Laurel was pregnant until douche face corrected her. Plus, Samantha and Laurel specifically mentioned that he was with Laurel.

 

Her friend(?) and her sister boning her boyfriend. Pre-Gambit Laurel had a weird circle.  

[dtissagirl]

"He didn't cheat with ten women! He only cheated with two!"

 

Oy.

[Sakura12]

Her friend and her younger sister. I think the take away is nobody liked Laurel.

[nksarmi]

I think Oliver was a serial cheater and Laurel put up with it.

 

The biggest issue I have with Sara and Oliver in season two is that I don't think he told her that he was just with Laurel a few months prior.  That might have allowed Sara to make a different choice.  From Sara's point of view, Laurel hadn't been with Oliver in years and should have been way over him.  It becomes a much bigger deal when you factor in that Ollie has once again slept with both sisters within a few months of each other.

[apinknightmare]

Personally, I don't think the timing of Oliver and Laurel's last hookup really matters, since afterward they decided that their relationship was over, and nothing was ever going to come of it again. If he'd hooked up with her and something was still there, and he still wanted to try, then sure. But that wasn't the case at all.

[lemotomato]

The biggest issue I have with Sara and Oliver in season two is that I don't think he told her that he was just with Laurel a few months prior.  That might have allowed Sara to make a different choice.  From Sara's point of view, Laurel hadn't been with Oliver in years and should have been way over him.  It becomes a much bigger deal when you factor in that Ollie has once again slept with both sisters within a few months of each other.

Oliver did tell Sara that he and Laurel had tried a relationship again when he got back from the island. I think it was in the same conversation in 205 when Sara remarks  "Ollie and Laurel, always and forever."

Edited March 16, 2016 by lemotomato

[ComicFan777]

Oliver did tell Sara that he and Laurel had tried a relationship again when he got back from the island. I think it was in the same conversation in 205 when Sara remarks  "Ollie and Laurel, always and forever."

 

It really makes me go ewwwww....thinking that Sara thought Ollie and Laurel was gonna be forever, but she still slept with him anyways.  It's just not something sisters should really share.

 

[apinknightmare]

It really makes me go ewwwww....thinking that Sara thought Ollie and Laurel was gonna be forever, but she still slept with him anyways.  It's just not something sisters should really share.

 

 

She didn't think that. In 2x05, she and Oliver had this conversation:

 

Sara: "I wasn't sure if you and she ever got back together." 

Oliver: "We tried. It's too much." 

Sara: "I guess some things, you know, are better left in the past." 

[hogwash]

I guess sister swapping wasn't one of those things...

[lemotomato]

What Sara thought about Oliver and Laurel was always kind of confusing to me. I still don't really understand what was the point of making her parting words to Laurel in 2x23 "Oliver needs you". I mean, the most obvious interpretation was that she was giving her tacit permission to do whatever with Oliver since she was leaving.

[SmallScreenDiva]

What Sara thought about Oliver and Laurel was always kind of confusing to me. I still don't really understand what was the point of making her parting words to Laurel in 2x23 "Oliver needs you". I mean, the most obvious interpretation was that she was giving her tacit permission to do whatever with Oliver since she was leaving.

 

As a friend? To work with him on the right side of the law? I mean, those are the only explanations that make sense to me. The show was done with ship baiting (or not ship baiting but deliberate misdirection using both sisters to set up the Gotcha with Felicity in the finale) at that point. The end of Season 2 marked a change in Oliver & Laurel's relationship in that now, FINALLY, she was in the know — and Season 3 did start with a new "partnership" with the "You catch them, I cook them." I wish Sara had said more (or that the writers set it up a little better). Because I cringed when I first heard that, too, my mind immediately going to "Yuck, she's passing him to Laurel again like a freakin' baton."

Edited March 16, 2016 by SmallScreenDiva

[Chaser]

What Sara thought about Oliver and Laurel was always kind of confusing to me. I still don't really understand what was the point of making her parting words to Laurel in 2x23 "Oliver needs you". I mean, the most obvious interpretation was that she was giving her tacit permission to do whatever with Oliver since she was leaving.

I think that line was to serve two purposes. 1) To keep the audience guessing if Oliver meant what he said to Felicity and since the answer to that was Yes 2) To say that Laurel still had a purpose in Oliver's life (even though she clearly didn't in S3).

[Password]

I guess sister swapping wasn't one of those things...

Bahahahahahaha!

[hogwash]

I think the jacket made that line worse. Like she was saying "you get Oliver and BC now." 

[dtissagirl]

I see Sara/Oliver as way way way more about Felicity than it is about Laurel, so it ends up making sense to me?

 

Sara was clearly rebounding something fierce from what looked like to be A VERY INTENSE long-lasting relationship with Nyssa. Oliver was available, and willing, and she didn't have to pretend to be anything other than herself with him. He was basically the most perfect rebound candidate on the planet, pesky problematic history with sister aside.

 

And then there's Oliver. Hilariously falling in love with his computer tech sidekick, and having NO IDEA what to do with those feelings, not only because he's never ever been in that position before, but also! He's sure Felicity is super into Barry. So here's Sara, who is the most uncomplicated non-relationship he can have on the planet, pesky problematic history with ex-girlfriend who happens to be her sister aside.

Edited March 16, 2016 by dtissagirl