Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[tennisgurl]

Lemotomato, I like the way you think. 

[lemotomato]

Thanks :)

Ever since 401 with the grave flash forward that strongly hinted Felicity was going to die, I knew the EPs were not going to let us fully enjoy the happy Olicity scenes we were going to get this season. They did it again with the BM lie, and then with the second flash forward of Olicity broken up. If I were going to let the writers' hack twists ruin my enjoyment of what I get to see onscreen, I'd have stopped watching after 401. My little denial bubble keeps my blood pressure low, especially when there are plenty of other things about the show that bug me.

Edited January 28, 2016 by lemotomato

[dtissagirl]

^^ This. I can enjoy every little lovely thing about Oliver/Felicity because I'm perfectly aware that to break them up the plot is gonna go haywire in completely artificial ways. And that whatever break-up is gonna have TEMPORARY written all over it.

 

It's pretty hilarious, even, because O/F turned out to be so entertaining and joyful together, and the chemistry between the actors gives them such a look of RELATIONSHIP GOALS, that the only way to disrupt them is to throw bad plot twists at them.

[tennisgurl]

Its just such bizarre writing. Most shows work like crazy to find a central couple that the audience loves, the actors have great chemistry, and work together well as a couple, and as independent characters. This show has found that very thing...and they throw in stupid roadblocks they know their audience will hate to keep them apart, or keep the audience nervous about the upcoming break up. Why? 

 

I am going to listen to you all, and just enjoy the Olicity I have now. Mystery baby? Whats that? That would be stupid. 

[dtissagirl]

I agree that it's bizarre writing, because it's really going against the natural flow of what the characters bring into the narrative [see: season three in its entirety], but I also feel like it's Arrow being very conservative in how it really stick to very old-fashioned ideals about the place of romance in a superhero origin story. It's a very patriarchal idea that romance can only be a source of angst/drama, especially in an action/adventure dudebro show, or else it's boring.

 

And then there's the fact that the original premise for Arrow was Laurel/Oliver -- a pairing that was certainly gonna be the will-they-won't-they kind for the entire run of the series. They simply transferred that to O/F, but skipped the part where O/F doesn't fit that mold in any possible way.

 

Which ends up making it frustrating as fuck to watch this show, but it also makes it super easy to handwave the anvilistic ways they'll put obstacles in front of O/F.

Edited January 28, 2016 by dtissagirl

[Password]

And then there's the fact that the original premise for Arrow was Laurel/Oliver -- a pairing that was certainly gonna be the will-they-won't-they kind for the entire run of the series. They simply transferred that to O/F, but skipped the part where O/F doesn't fit that mold in any possible way.

Yes.

[statsgirl]

Felicity and Oliver seem to be rolling with every issue so well, it makes me wonder if the break-up is not Felicity walking out because of the lie (which doesn't seem to be bad enough that she shuts the door on them forever) but Oliver engineering some reason to break up for her safety.

[bijoux]

Felicity and Oliver seem to be rolling with every issue so well, it makes me wonder if the break-up is not Felicity walking out because of the lie (which doesn't seem to be bad enough that she shuts the door on them forever) but Oliver engineering some reason to break up for her safety.

After the multiple times she's repeated that she makes her own choices and those choices were both him and the life they lead? I feel like if Oliver did this and Felicity found out, she would kick him to the curb 10x faster than for the lying.

[AyChihuahua]

I didn't really have a problem with an inevitable looming breakup. It's tv, it's what they do. Like if WE knew about the kid but Oliver didn't, or whatever. I only have a problem with the why of the breakup, that it's because of something awful Oliver's doing, right now, every day, every time he talks to/heart-eyes at Felicity. It's not even going to be something dumb someone does in the moment in the future, because it's this continuing thing that's happening every day, that he has plenty of time to reconsider. For example, I was a big VM fan, and when Veronica walked in on Logan with whatshername and preemptively ended their reconciliation, it didn't bother me that much, bc it was a momentary stupid decision he made without thought one night, while he was drunk. That's not what Arrow's doing. They're having Oliver continuously lie to her. THAT is what is ruining my enjoyment. If the BMD hadn't happened but the limo scene did, I'd be fine with it, bc I'd figure he'd make a quick dumbass decision. It's really the drawn-out continuing nature of the wrong he's doing that's bothering me so much.

[Chaser]

I wonder if that promise to make her walk again is going to lead to him making a very stupid choice.

[AyChihuahua]

I don't get the idea that the BMD isn't enough to break them up all by itself. We know her extremely negative reaction to the news the first time, after only a few hours. This will be months of continuous lying. The fact that they're working stuff out together in these episodes means nothing, bc that is what this show does. They wrote them as mature and supportive for 7 episodes. Heck, in the crossover just before the lying, Oliver said she brings him peace for the first time, then like a day later he's lying to her. That is exactly what this show does...plotty plot plots for plot. How many times have they completely ignored their own characterization for plot now? Scores, at a minimum.

 

I mean heck, he might do more bad stuff. I think he'll visit them. But I think the writers wrote the BMD specifically to break them up, and so that's pretty much why it will happen. 

[statsgirl]

Right after the crossover, it made sense to me that Felicity might leave him when she found out that he was lying.

 

But the more they're shown to be over coming their problems, the more they have scenes where Oliver supports Felicity, tells her how great she is and promises to find a cure for her, the more I think it has to be bigger than just the fact that he lied.  She knows he lies and keeps secrets but that doesn't seem to outweigh how supportive he is of her now.

[bijoux]

I get the feeling that the fact that Barry knows will play a big role. I definitely got the impression that it was a mjaor reason for Felicity's blow up in the crossover. She can handle Oliver not sharing things but not sharing them with someone else instead of her when they're supposed to be building a life together. The first can be reasoned away as a flaw in Oliver's character which she accpets (Although not neccessarily in this case since the lie has been present for a month already and I will be perfectly fine with that causing the break-up.) The second, however, points to a crack in the foundation of their relationship. It means there is someone(s) he can rely on and trust more than he does her. To use Felicity's team mate analogy, it makes her second string.

 

As for the talk about Laurel and Oliver in the episode thread:

 

1. Nothing of what we've seen of them in a relationship paints Oliver as mature in any way. To wit:

• moping around and seeking comfort in her when he got another girl pregnant without telling her
• evading the moving in talk instead of saying, I'm not ready
• calling her sister to circle around the block when she showed up at the dock to say goodbye

I don't know, maybe they presented a better picture to Moira, but what I've seen of them alone together certainly wasn't good. Or, here's a scary thought, Ollie was even worse when Laurel wasn't around. That should give you shivers.

 

2. I don't think Laurel has leftover feelings for Oliver. She may have leftover feelings for Ollie, but that's a different beast. My reasoning is this. Did she want Ollie to become something like Oliver? Absolutely. But she wanted to have a hand in creating him. That's why the relationship with Tommy worked for her. He entered it still a bit messed up (not as much as -2007 Ollie, but still) and he started turning things around for her and with her.

[Chaser]

Assuming that's Katie Cassidy's choice, I think it's a valid one.  Laurel connected with Oliver when he was a selfish, immature douchebag who feared commitment.  Towards the end of Season 1, she started to reconnect with him before Tommy's death scarred them both.  Now, two or three years later, Oliver has kind of "finished baking" and grown into a brave, loving, responsible man, the best version of himself.  And that best version of Oliver is with another woman.  I think Laurel wants Oliver and Felicity to be happy and for them to be happy together.  At the same time, though, it's not hard to understand why she might occasionally wonder and wish for "what might have been."

 

I agree re: KC playing Laurel still a bit into Oliver because it's her headcanon. And while I find it funny, in a weird way, it kinda fits Laurel -- not because she's still in love with Oliver, but because THIS Oliver would be the get, the win, without any of the work she'd have to put into "fixing" him. So maybe given the opportunity, Laurel would pounce Oliver? I totally can see it. And KC helps me see it.

Oliver would run away screaming to another galaxy, though.

 

She's affected by the syndrome. O/F is her [involuntary] NOTP, and whenever the script has Laurel talking positively about the pairing in anyway, KC's face betrays her.

Bringing this over.

 

ITA. It makes sense too me. Full Grown Oliver Queen is her "What if"

 

It circles around to probably my number one problem with the idea of the them going back to Oliver and Laurel. Oliver grew and changed and evolved and Laurel had zero to do with it. In fact, I would say she actively stopped him from growing up. Back when they dated, the show highlighted he got away with a lot of bad behavior. He comes back from the island changed but Laurel takes pot shots. Some were called for and a lot weren't. 

 

And the relationship between them in S2 and S3, was kind of gross. Oliver and Laurel were friends in S2, but you really wouldn't know it. Laurel was spiraling because of Tommy's death and Oliver was no where to be found. And when she did find him, he was sleeping with her newly resurrected sister. His biggest contribution to helping her was telling her to get drunk on his dime. The show set it up like Sara and her father helped her. S3? Ever worse. This is when she knew about his secret identity and his Team and he still lied to her and kept her out of the loop. To include but not limited too: the murder of her sister and the get out of jail free card given to Sara's killer. When she started spiraling again, Oliver ignored her. When she came to him about her burning fire problem he shut her down. When she started working with Grant he did it again. When he found out about her suit fetish he called her an addict and then just shrugged it off. As much as I don't think S3 was growth for her, the show framed it as such which means Oliver was activity ignoring it or trying to stop it.

 

The idea that at the end of the day, they just move Felicity out of her relationship and slide Laurel into it to reap the benefits of Oliver and Felicity's history is insulting. 

 

Related to the NOTP Face and the Canary Grin, I cringe to think about KC's acting around Felicity if they ever moved their places around. I'm glad I wouldn't be watching because I have a feeling snide would be back in full force.

[tv echo]

It's hard to get past those flashbacks where we find out:  (1) Sara had a crush on Ollie, Laurel called the cops to break up Tommy's party to prevent Sara from hooking up with Ollie, and then within a month Laurel started dating Ollie even though she knew her sister liked him;  and (2) Ollie got a girl pregnant when he was cheating on Laurel, Ollie let his mother take care of his little BM problem, and then Ollie went cuddling up to Laurel for comfort.  

Edited January 29, 2016 by tv echo

[Chaser]

It didn't even occur to me until I was typing that up, that the growth goes both ways. A few times they have had Felicity echo something Oliver said. It shows Oliver positively affecting her growth as well. 

 

I can't remember that ever happening with Laurel. 

[AyChihuahua]

I don't know whether Laurel still has feelings for Oliver, but I definitely think KC does.

[bijoux]

I don't know whether Laurel still has feelings for Oliver, but I definitely think KC does.

I think this is hitting the nail on the head.

[statsgirl]

.1. Nothing of what we've seen of them in a relationship paints Oliver as mature in any way. To wit:

• moping around and seeking comfort in her when he got another girl pregnant without telling her
• evading the moving in talk instead of saying, I'm not ready
• calling her sister to circle around the block when she showed up at the dock to say goodbye

I don't know, maybe they presented a better picture to Moira, but what I've seen of them alone together certainly wasn't good. Or, here's a scary thought, Ollie was even worse when Laurel wasn't around. That should give you shivers.

 

2. I don't think Laurel has leftover feelings for Oliver. She may have leftover feelings for Ollie, but that's a different beast. My reasoning is this. Did she want Ollie to become something like Oliver? Absolutely. But she wanted to have a hand in creating him. That's why the relationship with Tommy worked for her. He entered it still a bit messed up (not as much as -2007 Ollie, but still) and he started turning things around for her and with her.

THIS.

 

Oliver is what Laurel wanted -- serious man with a purpose, respected, running for mayor -- but she wanted to be the one who made him so that everyone would admire her and her consort.  I can't even tell if she finds present day Oliver attractive other than beyond being a hunky guy because he's so different personality-wise from what she wanted him to be

 

I think one of the reasons she was so flabbergasted when Tommy broke up with her is being they were going on the track she had created for them. And then she heard Oliver was still interested and Tommy was a thing of the past.

 

Moira approved of Oliver/Laurel but I think much of that was the hope that Oliver would settle down and stop being Ollie with her when he finally settled.  It wasn't working yet but Moira probably lived in fear of who or what he would bring home if Laurel didn't have him tied down.

 

It circles around to probably my number one problem with the idea of the them going back to Oliver and Laurel. Oliver grew and changed and evolved and Laurel had zero to do with it. In fact, I would say she actively stopped him from growing up. Back when they dated, the show highlighted he got away with a lot of bad behavior. He comes back from the island changed but Laurel takes pot shots. Some were called for and a lot weren't.

 

Related to the NOTP Face and the Canary Grin, I cringe to think about KC's acting around Felicity if they ever moved their places around. I'm glad I wouldn't be watching because I have a feeling snide would be back in full force.

.

Yeah, this is a problem with her portrayal of Laurel. Usually it's Laurel but sometimes it's Katie Cassidy (e.g. the jacket scene).

 

I agree, I think Laurel did actively try to stop him from changing.  She didn't have the flexibility that Diggle and Felicity have for him.

How much of that is Laurel herself and how much is immaturity because of her age, I don't know

Edited January 29, 2016 by statsgirl

[lemotomato]

Moira approved of Oliver/Laurel but I think much of that was the hope that Oliver would settle down and stop being Ollie with her when he finally settled.  It wasn't working yet but Moira probably lived in fear of who or what he would bring home if Laurel didn't have him tied down.

 

I know you weren't the first one to bring up this point, so this is not directed at you, but I don't see why Moira's approval of Oliver/Laurel is considered a positive for that relationship. Moira knew about her first husband's cheating and put up with it for years, and also went and had her own affair. She apparently lied to Walter, her second husband, about her involvement with the Undertaking and god knows what else throughout the course of their marriage. Moira's advice about marriage and relationships is pretty much the opposite of what anyone should follow, so the fact that she thought Oliver/Laurel was a good thing makes that pairing even worse, in my opinion.

Edited January 29, 2016 by lemotomato

[tangerine95]

I agree Moira's approval doesn't mean much.She also knew about Oliver getting baby mama pregnant and was okay with Oliver cheating on Laurel and actually helped him get away with it by making BM go away.I think she just thought it could be someone worse than Laurel.

I don't think Laurel has lingering feelings for Oliver.At least its not the writers intention to make it seem that way.I think they consider her as over him as he's over her.Its just that KC wants the LI role back and sometimes it comes through on screen.I also think they write lines where she talks about them dating both as a way to show she's over it and they're just friends now and because thats kind of her only connection to Oliver,an ex he's friends with for reasons we were never shown or explained.

[statsgirl]

I know you weren't the first one to bring up this point, so this is not directed at you, but I don't see why Moira's approval of Oliver/Laurel is considered a positive for that relationship.

No, it's not a positive.  My comment was in response to the comment that Oliver's relationship with Laurel had some good things because Moira approved of it.  I was trying to explain why Moira approved even though it was toxic.

[hogwash]

Bringing this talk/rant over from the news thread. I don't even think Laurel actually likes the new Oliver. I'm 85% sure she liked Ollie the douche more. But I'm guessing the basis for it is since Oliver's changed if Laurel and Oliver get together now it would be different somehow. I don't get it. Oliver screwed Laurel's sister and got another woman pregnant. Why would it even matter if he's "changed"?? Plus, it kinda makes me wonder how many times pre-Gambit Laurel deluded herself into thinking that despite Ollie's constant cheating and douche personality. 

[EmeraldArcher]

If we're to be plagued by LL's continued presence (but we're not, because she is in the grave!), I think the only way to make her work is to give her an honest to goodness love interest. I hate to relegate a female character to a love interest or force one on her, but it's an opportunity to redeem LL via emotional investment in her relationship. All of her relationships have been mostly awful: relationships with Ollie, Oliver, Sara, and Lance have shown her at her worst. She was awful to Tommy, and their relationship negatively (and unintentionally?) highlighted her self-absorption and her contempt for him. Any seeds of her friendship with Thea that were planted in S1 and S2 were ruined forever when she re-victimized and manipulated Thea by taking her Nanda Parbat in S4. Her developing friendships with John and Felicity ring false.

 

I think a love interest can show us an authentic connection to another person that LL doesn't currently convince me she has. A brand new relationship could be formed without baggage or ugly animosity. There can be flirting and vulnerability, the thrill of the first flush of romance. LL hasn't yet had a normal adult relationship, and I think it's the only way to make people care about her--to show us that she's someone one could care about.

[calliope1975]

Well, it's also kind of sad to me, because what part of this relationship would Laurel be basing this "love of her life" theory on? When he was cheating on her? When he was skittish about moving in together? When he ran off with her sister? I don't blame KC for angling for O/L to get back together, but the love of her life stance is ridiculous.

 

Brought this over from Media. I agree and also think it's sad and a bit pathetic that Ollie Queen would be the love of anyone's life. That guy was an asshole douche who used every opportunity to skirt responsibilities and be a decent human being. That guy is the type you run away from, not put up on a pedestal. I understand that KC doesn't have many options in Laurel's love life to pull from, but I'd rather see her talk up Tommy, who was making an effort to be the person she deserved or simply say she hasn't found the right guy for Laurel yet. But to repeatedly pull up Ollie Queen as a great love is sad and for me, shows little respect for her character. YMMV.

[statsgirl]

I agree that Oliver was a douche and he did a lot of thoughtless things but he wasn't a bad person.  He thoughtless hurt people but I don't think he deliberately did (unlike Malcolm for example). And he did love Thea.  I imagine that there were many times that he was a charming and entertaining boyfriend, and Laurel, who had her eye on what she had determined would be her future life, probably enjoyed being his girlfriend most of the time.

 

I think Laurel sees Oliver as the love of her life because she never had anything as major as him again.  She was with Tommy for less than half a year and maybe if he had lived after the point where she realized she did love him after all, they might have had something big.  But she's known Oliver and had feelings for Oliver for half her life so as far as she knows, he is the biggest love of her life.  It's kind of sad, really.

 

Laurel really needs a new love interest, someone who can be the real love of her life.

[tv echo]

FYI, the Arrow S1 tie-in comics provided more information on the development of Laurel & Tommy's relationship during the five years while Oliver was away...

 

Two years after the Queen's Gambit sinking and Oliver's "death", Laurel ran into Tommy at a bar and they ended up having sex.  They continued to have off and on sex for the next three years, and finally ended up an official couple sometime after Oliver's return, by Tommy's 28th birthday.

Edited February 2, 2016 by tv echo

[statsgirl]

That's interesting.  I wonder if that is part of KC's headcanon where Tommy took advantage of Laurel?

 

But I don't think Laurel moved past Oliver until he actually came back (citing Helen Fisher's research on the brain effects of being dumped).  In the pilot episode, it's like she's still back in the past where the guy she was planning to marry took off with her sister and they both died, but now she knows he survived and her sister's dead and that makes it even worse.   I think she had to deal with the Oliver situation before she could open herself up to a possible relationship with Tommy, who we know she projected a lot of Oliver's stuff onto.  And then Oliver was a possibility again and since she'd spent 14 years dreaming about him, she took the chance and lost Tommy.

 

I also think it was a lot easier for Laurel to feel sympathetic to Sara when she thought she was dead.  When she learned Sara was really alive, all the anger and resentment came up again.

[bijoux]

 

Two years after the Queen's Gambit sinking and Oliver's "death", Laurel ran into Tommy at a bar and they ended up having sex.  They continued to have off and on sex for the next three years, and finally ended up an official couple sometime after Oliver's return, by Tommy's 28th birthday.

Is this supported by the S3 flashback? My headcanon is that they started to hook up after Tommy's birthday when she decided to stay in SC, but I could certainly be mistaken. It's not like I watched that part more than once.

[tv echo]

MG has said that the tie-in comics are part of the show canon, so if you consider both what happened in the comics and what happened on the show, it looks like Laurel and Tommy first hooked up way before she made the decision to stay in Starling City and not take the big law firm job in San Francisco.

 

In Arrow Volume 2, Chapter 26 (Lapse), the following happens:

-- The comic panel says "Three Years Ago" (two years after Oliver's "death"). Laurel is at a bar club with a few law school classmates.  They're studying and drinking beer.  She spots Tommy who's partying loudly at the same bar with his friends. She goes over to him and asks him if they could "dial it down a bit".  He tells her that she could loosen up a bit and that it's been "two years since the accident" that killed his best friend and her sister.  They argue (she thinks he should've changed after people they both cared about died, he thinks she has a stick up her ass). She leaves. Later that night (he's wearing the same clothes), he shows up at her apartment to apologize.  She says that she wants to let go and kisses him.  They end up having sex and she says "this can never happen again."

-- The comic panel says "Two Years, Eight Months Ago". Laurel shows up at Tommy's door, she says, "This can never...", he says, "Understood," and they have sex again.

-- The comic panel says "Two Years Ago", Laurel graduates from law school. Laurel and Tommy have sex again, and she says, "This is the last time."

-- The comic panel says "One Year, Nine Months Ago".  Laurel and Tommy have sex again, and Tommy says, "I know, last time."

-- The comic panel says "One Year, Six Months Ago."  Laurel starts working at CNRI.

-- The comic panel says "One Year Ago". Tommy and Laurel are sitting in a restaurant. He says, "That's what you said the last time, and the time before that."  She says, "I know. But I'm moving on and you're still the same old playboy."

-- The comic panel says "Six Months Ago." Tommy is in bed with two unidentified women and hears on the news that Oliver is alive.  Laurel is at CNRI and also hears the same news. Then there's a nighttime scene where Tommy and Laurel are walking together. Tommy says that he saw her and Oliver head out. She says that there's nothing between her and Oliver any more.  Tommy says that he thought the only thing between her and Oliver was "us".  She says that there is no "us".  He asks, "Then what would you call it?"  She says, "A lapse."  He says, "Quite a few lapses. Your place, my place, my place again."  She says, "Come on, Merlyn. We both know you're not a one-girl type of guy."  He says, "Depends on the girl."

-- The comic panel says "Now." Tommy and Laurel are in the kitchen. She asks if the birthday boy is excited for his big dinner. He seems unsure and says that 27 was really good to him.  She says that his best friend coming back from the dead is a reason to celebrate.  He says it wasn't just Oliver returning from the dead, but "us - after everything that's happened, I didn't think we'd get here." She says, "Well, I'm glad we did."  They kiss.

 

In the flashbacks shown in Episode 3.14 (The Return), aired Feb. 2015, which would've taken place during the 3rd year that Oliver was away, the following happens:

(Drunk Quentin comes up to Laurel, Tommy and Thea.)

Quentin: "I'm sorry, was I embarrassing you?"

Laurel: "No. Yourself."

Quentin: "At least I know who I am. And I'm not becoming someone I'm not. Hanging around with billionaire playboys like some kind of gold digger? Taking on a sell out job in San Francisco."
Laurel: "Is that what this is about?"
Quentin: "When Sara died, you said you wanted to go to law school 'cause you wanted to make the world a better place."

Laurel: "Wethersby Posner is one of the most prestigious firms in the country."
Quentin: "You said you wanted to help people. All you'd be doing there is helping fat cats get fatter."

Laurel: "You know, maybe this sermon would have a little bit more credibility if you weren't so lit right now."
Quentin: "Well, I don't need to be sober to see what you're doing with your life. I just wish you could, too."

*  *  *

(Later)

Laurel: "Tommy Merlyn. Are you stalking me?"

Tommy: "Just checking on you. Things with your father seemed, uh, they seemed tense. Your roommate told me you were taking a job here. I said that couldn't be true, that you were going to work for a white shoe firm."

Laurel: "Ah, I was. And then someone reminded me why I became a lawyer in the first place."
Tommy: "You want to tell me about it over dinner? Hey, hey, hey, it is just dinner."
Laurel: "How many girls have you used those three little words with?"
Tommy: "Those are the only three little words I say."
Laurel: "Fine. Just dinner."

Edited February 3, 2016 by tv echo

[dtissagirl]

You know, the one thing I'm curious about whatever went on pre-Gambit is whether Tommy had been in love with Laurel all along.

Edited February 3, 2016 by dtissagirl

[Chaser]

I know that's never been confirmed, but I feel like that's everyone's headcanon.

 

It sounds like Tommy was the guy Laurel couldn't quit.

[apinknightmare]

What next-level morons study at bars? Good lord.

[looptab]

And then ask other people to dial it down. *facepalm*

[kismet]

I've studied in many an odd place. A bar, perhaps post-study session but never mid-study session. Then again people in bars should really be considerate of other people studying... :)

[bijoux]

Thanks, tv echo. I know what MG says about the comics, but the show often contradicts the show, I don't have much reason to belive him that the comics wouldn't. However, there's nothing about that flashback that contradicts them starting to hook up earlier.

I don't know whether Tommy was actually in love with Laurel prior to the Gambit, but I do believe he felt drawn to her, but maybe tried to convince himself otherwise because of her thing with Oliver. Although again, people tell me that according to the comics the two of them used to swap girls or whatever, so I don't know why it would have been verboten. Who knows, maybe Tommy honestly did think Laurel was a stuck up hag who dragged Oliver down and then she turned out to be awesome in the sack that first time they hooked up.

[statsgirl]

I think even if Tommy and Oliver used to swap girls, Laurel would have refused.

 

It sounds like Tommy was the guy Laurel couldn't quit.

Yeah. And that their relationship was just as messed up as Laurel/Oliver.

[BkWurm1]

Yeah. And that their relationship was just as messed up as Laurel/Oliver.

 

Probably gave it that nice familiar kind of feeling. 

[lemotomato]

I understand the bitterness about the BM lie and I hate the storyline. But I also think the show wants us to treat the lie like it's not a big deal, just like we're not supposed to be grossed out by Laurel digging Sara out of the ground and resurrecting her with no thought about the consequences.

 

On the one hand, in reality, the lie is a horrible breach of trust. Not just the initial evasion, but every lie that Oliver apparently tells Felicity when he's going to Central City to see the kid.

 

On the other hand, like many people have pointed out, the show has completely ignored that storyline since it happened, except for the one throwaway line last night that none of the characters reacted to. The show has also emphasized that Oliver has been, for the most part, incredibly attentive, supportive, and loving of Felicity. When he reverted to "run away" mode in 410 he acknowledged he was a jerk and apologized profusely.

 

So while I understand why this storyline has irreparably ruined Olicity for some, I need to watch it play out before I make a judgement. I'm pretty sure the lie is going to be excused as Oliver wanted to tell Felicity, but then everything happened and he didn't want to give her more of his shit to deal with. By real life standards, it's a bad excuse and Felicity should absolutely walk away. But this is television. It's a show that ignores logical consequences to lots of bad behavior. The fact that they'll break up at all is more repercussion than Laurel had to deal with after digging up her dead sister and letting her run around killing people.

 

And honestly, as far as TV couple problems go, the lie is not insurmountable. It's glaringly bad because Olicity has been so likeable, but it's not nearly on the same level as "I married someone else because I thought you were dead" or "we were on a break!" or "I'm ditching you to pursue my music career, but you'll still be here when I get back, yeah?"

[AyChihuahua]

If the show thinks that, cool. But a decent portion of the audience does not think that, and that needs to be just as okay as those who think it's no big.  

 

Also, not sure the show thinks that, since Laurel had zero consequences and the show has validated her choice, whereas Mericle has said this is going to blow up in Oliver's face. 

Edited February 5, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[Chaser]

I kind of get the appeal of this storyline.

 

This is how I think they are approaching it and how they will resolve it. From their point of view they need to add drama to Olicity's relationship and put them through the ringer. However it can't be so bad that they can't come back. So they frame this lie in a sympathetic way. On paper it reads that Oliver lied because he felt he had no choice, because he had to be in his son's life, because he couldn't stand to lose Felicity. Sure, it doesn't pass real-logic but it passes Arrow-Logic. Oliver is a tortured soul who made a mistake but should be forgiven.

 

Now Felicity. Felicity needs to have every right to be furious at him and to be so mad she breaks up with him. He asked her to marry him but is keeping his child from her. That's a pretty good one. And given her fear established in 4x06, it's understandable that she walks/wheels. But she can't go too far because they need to get back together by so-and-so episode. Now is a great time to introduce her father. A father who can remind her of growing up without one and whose reappearance can also help Felicity face family-issues and yada yada. Eventually Felicity can grow and face her own issues and as a huge bonus come to understand Oliver's position and forgive him. Win-Win. 

 

It is a TV cliche to the 9th degree, but I can see why it appeals to them.

Edited February 5, 2016 by Chaser

[Carrie Ann]

If the show thinks that, cool. But a decent portion of the audience does not think that, and that needs to be just as okay as those who think it's no big.  

 

Also, not sure the show thinks that, since Laurel had zero consequences and the show has validated her choice, whereas Mericle has said this is going to blow up in Oliver's face. 

 

I don't see anyone here presenting their opinion/interpretation as fact, so I don't think anyone is implying that it's not okay to feel that the lie is a very big deal.

 

Personally, I feel like the show does think the lie is a big deal--they have to think that or there would be no point to doing it--and Oliver is going to be punished for his mistake in all the ways LL and others never are for theirs. That's fine by me because he is doing a shitty thing, and Felicity is going to be rightfully pissed off about it and only her motivations will make sense--Samantha's don't (especially if she HAS been allowing Oliver to visit post-409), Oliver's don't, so I'll be happy if at least one out of three people involved in this dumb lie and its fallout is allowed to feel realistic emotions and take logical action. But I agree with @Chaser and @lemotomato that the writers basically had to come up something that was bad but not THAT bad, and that's where I believe the writers would place The Lie. Shitty but not unforgivable or insurmountable.

 

That said, there is basically nothing they can do at this point that would make me not believe in an O/F reconciliation, or to make me hate Oliver. I've crossed some sort of rubicon with this after Season 3, and I mean, I guess if they DID manage to do either of those things, I would just quit the show. 

[statsgirl]

My biggest problem with it is that it's looming over the show and I'm dreading what's going to happen.

 

I keep waiting for when it's all going to fall apart.  It's ruining my enjoyment of the current episodes.

[bijoux]

I feel like it's looming over the show as well, but more in a my God, will it just happen so that this storyline starts happening as well, whatever it is? Right now, it's just sitting in the water.

[kismet]

It's withholding the truth... and its shitty but it's no insurmountable. There are a lot worse truths to be withheld & lies to be told. And the fact that BM forced him to do it or at least heavily implied that it was the only way to see his son gives OQ some leeway. Now, if he has been visiting the BM/W on the regular in the last month or so that completely changes the ballgame. And then its far worse, because now its not just one "lie", it's multiple and that is wrong, especially considering FS needed help post accident.

 

That being said, I totally understand everyone's frustration with this storyline, because it is just hanging over our heads. And the longer it lingers there without resolution the more annoying it becomes. I'm glad the writers have essentially forgot about it for now because in all honesty, I think OQ might have forgotten about it. It's weird, but I don't think he's been thinking that much about his son. He sorta seemed like an afterthought in the whole time reset. I have a feeling that will change once someone for plot purposes reminds him of William. I wonder if Guilt Arrow isn't gonna show its head again and he's gonna think it's his fault he doesn't have a better relationship with his son and then decide to pursue him, which is when whammo-plot convenience he puts him directly in the path of the kidnappers.

 

I don't think this withholding of the truth was insurmountable in Dec and I don't think it is now or even in 3 months from now. Nobody is truly honest about everything even in the most healthy of relationships. This is a big secret to keep from your future wife, but it's also something OQ just found out about. It's not like he's been keeping it for years. It's been a month or two tops, it only feels like years because these writers suck and are drawing every bit of potential angst out of the story possible.

[BkWurm1]

I don't think this withholding of the truth was insurmountable in Dec and I don't think it is now or even in 3 months from now. Nobody is truly honest about everything even in the most healthy of relationships. This is a big secret to keep from your future wife, but it's also something OQ just found out about. It's not like he's been keeping it for years. It's been a month or two tops, it only feels like years because these writers suck and are drawing every bit of potential angst out of the story possible.

 

It is though something that, as one reviewer said after watching 4-8, leaves Oliver and Felicity's relationship forever changed.  For months and months as we talked about the upcoming secret kid reveal, did it even occur to any of us that he wouldn't tell her?  I was ready for him to take few days and process but not ready for him to  agree never to tell her.  That was so beyond the realm of what was possible for his character with Felicity and now they've forced it to be in character by making it actually happen.  It forever lessens their partnership for me.  Not to levels that ruin them or make me give them up (though I was worried about just that until 4-9) but still, my faith in who there are together was shaken when there was no reason for it to happen. 

 

I'm more smad over it than anything.  It's just such a waste and shame that any of us have to deal with it. 

[statsgirl]

I don't think it was insurmountable in December. Or even maybe in January. But...

It's withholding the truth... and its shitty but it's no insurmountable. There are a lot worse truths to be withheld & lies to be told. And the fact that BM forced him to do it or at least heavily implied that it was the only way to see his son gives OQ some leeway. Now, if he has been visiting the BM/W on the regular in the last month or so that completely changes the ballgame. And then its far worse, because now its not just one "lie", it's multiple and that is wrong, especially considering FS needed help post accident.

The longer it goes on, the worse it gets, especially if he has been visiting William.

 

You can make an argument for Oliver not telling her right away, especially with everything going on, nut when he had a moment to set and think and catch his breath, there's no excuse for not realizing how unfair and without reason Samantha's rules are.   Talk to a lawyer, Oliver. Talk to Diggle.

[looptab]

 

And honestly, as far as TV couple problems go, the lie is not insurmountable. It's glaringly bad because Olicity has been so likeable, but it's not nearly on the same level as "I married someone else because I thought you were dead" or "we were on a break!" or "I'm ditching you to pursue my music career, but you'll still be here when I get back, yeah?"

I kept rooting for those couples even after all that. I'm a terrible person, hahah.

[bijoux]

Who's the last couple?

[Chaser]

Nathan and Haley was the couple that jumped to mind when I read that.