Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[dtissagirl]

MG said in April of 2013 that they had to wrap up the Oliver/Laurel/Tommy triangle before they could move onto Felicity. This was in an interview given right around the S1 finale.

They knew before S1 even ended that they were going with Olicity. I would imagine that was part of their S2 pitch to CW/WB/DC.

I can't help but think the WB ordered them mid S1 to solve L/O by the end of the season, and move on to something else.

And then they came up with

- O/F rom-com of 201-213 [that actually really really helped them set up Flash, btw -- can you imagine using *Laurel* to set up Barry? Stop LOLing]

- stall tactics with Sara fullfilling their Green Arrow/Black Canary fetish

- psych! "I love you" ending to satisfy Guggie's narrative kinks.

And it *worked* too, for the first 41 minutes of 301. And then they were dumb again for 1 minute and 22 episodes.

[tangerine95]

I never thought Ray and Felicity were considered by the EP as anything but a stall for Olicity and a way to get Ray a spinoff.It was never written as more then temporary imo,thats why it was so rushed and there was no slow build up like a relationship they actually took serioulsly would have had.Not to mention all the olicity development that was happening right from 3.01.I mean I though this is the endgame couple right after i saw that episode.Before that I had doubts they might go less serious with them and write it in a way they could backtrack from it but they went all in.

I really think KC just promotes what's best for her and being LI is what gets her the screentime and attention in a way that being a BC thats totally removed from Oliver doesn't.So imo thats why she promotes Lauriver and tries to make it seem like there was a love triangle betwen Laurel,Oliver and Felicity even though there were no signs of that anywhere.

[AyChihuahua]

I see going for Olicity and killing Lauriver as two separate things. Lauriver was goan die no matter what happened with Olicity. Whether Oliver's new LI was going to be Felicity or McKenna or Helena or Sara or someone completely new is irrelevant to that. Lauriver was going to be killed with fire no matter what other romantic relationship they settled on.

[NumberCruncher]

MG said in April of 2013 that they had to wrap up the Oliver/Laurel/Tommy triangle before they could move onto Felicity. This was in an interview given right around the S1 finale.

They knew before S1 even ended that they were going with Olicity. I would imagine that was part of their S2 pitch to CW/WB/DC.

I think this is true as well and it makes complete sense when you look at how involved EBR was at SDCC that year. Most of the press interaction we saw were joint SA/EBR interviews. The show and the network were already setting up the O/F pairing in the press before the first episode even aired.

[Chaser]

I find the whole discussion of when they moved LL out of LI position really entertaining, largely due to KC's interviews.

 

It's a career thing for her, so I get it. It just amuses me the way she went about it. I could see trying to sell the idea BTS and supporting it at Cons and on her social media, but giving official interviews that are at odds with what everyone else is saying is an interesting approach.

[thegirlsleuth]

A couple of years ago, GQ did an in-depth oral history of Goodfellas in which all sorts of people involved with the project--actors, writers, techs, money people--talked about what it was like to make the movie.  It didn't get gossipy but it did get into some personal details, e.g., Ray Liotta lost his mother during filming, and some of the grief spilled over into his acting.  It was interesting to get the views of people who were sometimes at odds in their perception.  Ten years out, I would love to see something like that with Arrow, since there are behind-the-scenes issues that impact storytelling and vice versa.  Personally, I think they knew immediately after the pilot that they had a problem with Laurel/Oliver.  I think they didn't know whether they had to do a hard reboot or a soft reboot, but in the interim they started auditioning new love interests on screen--Helena, McKenna, and Felicity.  All three fulfilled different narratives, with Helena being a Catwoman to Oliver's Batman, McKenna filling the role they originally planned for Laurel (where there was a law enforcement agent who worked for and against Oliver), as well as Felicity.  While EBR's star turn is now legend, I think if either of those other narratives/actresses pinged we would have seen a very different narrative. In addition--and this is where I am most interested in hearing the behind-the-scenes story--I have to wonder if Sara's introduction was them giving the Black Canary story another go. 

 

If I can't get a super-classy oral history from GQ, I would settle for Colton Haynes drunk tweeting one night.

[johntfs]

When I go back look at those early Arrow episodes, I'm really struck by the way that Oliver is a smugly self-righteous fanatic who coldly plans out actions 20 moves ahead.  He deliberately recruits John Diggle to gain support and short circuit a police investigation.  Of particular interest are the times Oliver does his own narration.  That really makes him look like a psychopath.

 

The Felicity character really saves him.  She surprises him into humanity and helps function as his conscience without overtly nagging him.

Edited January 8, 2016 by johntfs

[Guest]

I did an Olicity scene rewatch a few months ago and was surprised by how early they set-up the pairing. It was really early, not in an overt 'these two will definitely get together' way but more in suggestion and editing. Like there's the scene where Diggle tells Oliver that when the right woman comes along he'll be ready for her and the scene immediately cuts to Felicity walking into Walter's office. Little hints like that.

 

I was also pretty surprised by how flirty Oliver was at times, when he visited Felicity in her office. At one point he's really eyeing her with interest and all that 'You're remarkable' business. They laid that groundwork as soon as they could tbh. I think people were so focused on the O/L mess and the inevitability of that pairing simply because of the comics that they were missing what was really happening. 

[hogwash]

Hindsight is 20/20 but I really think they rolled out several Laurel replacements as soon as they could (McKenna, Helena, Felicity). They tried them all out and decided to go with Felicity. Then McKenna got injured and put on a bus to to random DC city while Helena got caught going after her father. They actually had the two other Laurel replacements take each other out of the running/show. 

 

When I go back look at those early Arrow episodes, I'm really struck by the way that Oliver is a smugly self-righteous fanatic who coldly plans out actions 20 moves ahead.  He deliberately recruits John Diggle to gain support and short circuit a police investigation.  Of particular interest are the times Oliver does his own narration.  That really makes him look like a psychopath.

 

The Felicity character really saves him.  She surprises him into humanity and helps function as his conscience without overtly nagging him.

 

Yup, he totally came off total psychopath in those early episodes. So dead behind the eyes. I liked him when he was ditching with Diggle (and smiling at Felicity) but he was freaky. Pairing him with Helena really didn't help his case. It's not a good thing that they were well-matched. I think that's another reason the romance with Laurel bombed. He was somewhat real with Thea (though she didn't see it), but everything else was so calculated and insincere. 

[kismet]

I think by the middle of season 1 they already decided to replace Laurel as LI.I think the whole reason they killed Tommy and rushed the Lauriver hook up as well as did it in a way that made them look bad was because they were done with Lauriver as epic star crossed soulmates.MG may say that they decided on Olicity halfway through season 2 but to me it looks like Felicity was being set up as the main LI since 2.01.Season 2B and all the Sara and Oliver stuff was there to stall Olicity and totally end Lauriver.It doesn't seem to me like it was all that hard for them to give up on Lauriver.Giving up on Laurel as BC was the problem but imo that has more to do with bts stuff than with what they want to write.

I tend to agree that they had given up on LL/OQ as a major show pairing as of the s2, but starting considering it in middle s1. I can't help but wonder if that is why SL became the Canary, so they could really put an end to Lauriver & have a GA/BC sexual pairing in the show. Part of me also wonders if that is why KC was so pissed at SL being brought in because in one swing, she took everything away from her character. She lost both the LI & the BC role and that must sting. Beyond her addiction story, she really was not important to s2. Even now they have given her BC, but its not as promoted in show as SL's role was. It was just like here you go, we promised you a mask, so there you go. Go hit some things.

 

As for FS as the main love interest, I'm gonna believe them that they finalized it mid-s2. I think they laid a lot of hints and moments for them in s2a, but it was not a definite end game set-up until middle. However, they definitely moved her to the front and center of a potential LI in s2a. I just think the writers were making sure that it was going to be amazing that they tested it out in s2a. Also, I feel like how they set it up was very organic and perfect for the characterization of OQ, because even if he started having romantic or sexual feelings towards FS, it was not gonna just happen one moment. Nobody in his mental state just ups and takes a chance ruining his professional relationship on two fronts by moving in on her romantically. He cared about her too much to just jump into bed with her and compromise every other part of their lives, if things did not work out. He was going to need a few months to wrap his head around those feelings, as well as some forced acceptance via Slade's ultimatum, because what he felt for her was probably really serious & scary for him. 

 

It's also why I was so pissed at them for how they then proceeded with s3, because s2 was so good at setting up the romance and then they shat all over it in s3 for no reason. They could have been more gradual with the progression. The date still could have blown up, but they could have shown OQ trying to balance everything and work through some of his issues. Before he pushed her away and into Ray's open arms. It just could have been so much better than what we were given. Instead he dropped her like a hot potato, and RP be an awkward clone version of him.

[johntfs]

It's also why I was so pissed at them for how they then proceeded with s3, because s2 was so good at setting up the romance and then they shat all over it in s3 for no reason. They could have been more gradual with the progression. The date still could have blown up, but they could have shown OQ trying to balance everything and work through some of his issues. Before he pushed her away and into Ray's open arms. It just could have been so much better than what we were given. Instead he dropped her like a hot potato, and RP be an awkward clone version of him.

 

I have to disagree and say that the Felicity/Ray pairing was actually useful if not necessary to the current situation of Felicity/Oliver as a serious, apparently permanent couple.  For the first two seasons Oliver pretty much "taste-tested" every woman who crossed his path and wasn't a blood relative while Felicity sat in the lair/office and quietly pined for him.  In terms of dating, Oliver was always going to be skittish and him dropping the romance with Felicity after the bombing was completely in character.  Without Ray to spur things a little, figure Felicity would have gone back to pining for Oliver and waiting/hoping for him to change his mind again.

 

Ray was important for the Felicity/Oliver romance because he tested it in several ways.  First, by actively pursuing/courting Felicity, he forced Oliver to recognize that no, Felicity might not simply wait for him to eventually choose her.  By desiring and valuing Felicity, Ray pushed Oliver into seeing her as a valuable, desirable woman in her own right and not simply as the cute girl whose feelings he might choose to return if it wasn't too dangerous/inconvenient.

 

For Felicity, Ray helped her realize the true nature of her feelings for Oliver.  Ray was very much her "perfect guy," Barry's brain in Oliver's body.  Rich, handsome, smart, geeky, generous and in love with her.  If the universe was designing someone for Felicity to love, it would be Ray Palmer.  And yet, she didn't truly love him.  She loved Oliver to the point that she could not accept Ray's love.  The relationship with Ray helped Felicity understand that her feelings for Oliver weren't a crush or hero worship or simple lust or some combination.

 

Ray was vital to the show in the sense that he helped create the crucible in which Felicity and Oliver's relationship was truly forged.

Edited January 9, 2016 by johntfs

[BkWurm1]

For Felicity, Ray helped her realize the true nature of her feelings for Oliver.  Ray was very much her "perfect guy," Barry's brain in Oliver's body.  Rich, handsome, smart, geeky, generous and in love with her.  If the universe was designing someone for Felicity to love, it would be Ray Palmer.  And yet, she didn't truly love him.  She loved Oliver to the point that she could not accept Ray's love.  The relationship with Ray helped Felicity understand that her feelings for Oliver weren't a crush or hero worship or simple lust or some combination.

 

I think this was the show's intentions, but I think how well the show succeeded in actually portraying all of that is up for interpretation. 

[way2interested]

Ray was vital to the show in the sense that he helped create the crucible in which Felicity and Oliver's relationship was truly forged.

Interesting analysis, johntfs! On paper, and from your words, the relationship is something that Oliver and Felicity needed before getting together for posssibly the long run. Felicity definitely needed someone else in terms of a love interest for comparisons and other options for Felicity's life other than her feelings for Oliver along with more realization for each other (Oliver rationalized that without Felicity, he was actually going to give up on having a life with anyone else, Felicity realized that her feelings for Oliver are important and irreplaceable to her since he literally changed her life and opened her heart in a way that she never thought possible). 

 

However, I feel like the biggest problem was still the execution. The main priority of Ray off-screen was to sell another spin-off and the secondary priority was to become Felicity's love interest and achieve what you've written. I definitely dislike Ray less and less as time goes by, because I understand what the writers were going for and that they did make him more likable, but I can't quite forget the not-quite-right feelings I got for him for the first almost 3/4 of the season. 

 

ETA: or, longer version of what BkWurm1 said

Edited January 9, 2016 by way2interested

[kismet]

Ray was vital to the show in the sense that he helped create the crucible in which Felicity and Oliver's relationship was truly forged.

I will politely disagree with you.... Ray Palmer was nothing but an annoyance that made s3 really hard to watch. Perhaps if they had Ray be the adorkable character with a personality he was in the end of the season and been that guy that bumbled and pursued FS, things might have been different. Perhaps he and their relationship might have helped create a crucible in which F&O's relationship was truly forged. But as it stands R/F was just a forced relationship stall. There was nothing substantial to the R/F relationship that stood out on its own merits. Every major relationship moment was a direct response to something OQ did. And frankly, OQ was happy with FS being happy in her relationship with RP. If she had not made the move in 320, I doubt OQ would have come back to pursue a relationship with her. As it was, he basically planned to sacrifice himself to save SC, so the R/F relationship never really fazed him. So long as FS was happy, OQ was happy- it didn't matter if he was with her or not. Things seem different in s4, but that has nothing to do with RP.

 

As for FS's feelings towards OQ, well frankly the writers just didn't care enough to give her a point of view for the entire season, so we never got to hear about the hows or whys she fell in love with OQ. And I doubt her relationship with RP, help put anything in perspective for her. But she did get laid and forgotten about to go fly a suit so there's that.

[hogwash]

I think Ray's relationship with Felicity was about selling Ray as a male lead. Felicity was barely even present in the relationship by the second half of S03. She barely reacted when he told her he loved her (in what freaking world?!) or when he took it back or when he dumped her. I freaking love the scene where Ray went up to her after Oliver gives up being the Arrow and proposes that they go off together. She wasn't remotely conflicted or concerned that the man she just broke up with heard that shit.

Even before the finale, Felicity (despite having no POV) made it abundantly clear that she'd drop Ray like a hot potato the second Oliver gave any indication that he wanted to pursue a relationship with her. She literally tells Oliver this while she's in the process of getting with Ray and while she's still with Ray. So, does that explanation for Ray really work if both Oliver and Felicity know Ray's a non-entity if/when Oliver gets his act together? Does it work if the audience knows it too? It didn't work for me. Ray or the relationship.

[johntfs]

I think Felicity craved the idea of Ray more than Ray himself.  In 3.05 we see Felicity make a change to herself and transform from Goth Ninja Hacker Queen to Conventionally Nerdy IT Girl.  When we meet her in Season 1.03 that's who she's trying to be.  She even makes a point of telling Oliver that she doesn't want to get dragged into some Shakespearean family drama (and ultimately clues him into the perpetrator).  Felicity's journey over Seasons 1 and 2 mirrors Oliver's.  Where Oliver makes a journey to becoming human again, Felicity makes a journey to becoming the unconventional person she needs to be.

 

Early Season 3 sets both of them back.  The date bombing and the murder of Sara pushes Oliver into thinking he can only be the Arrow.  Meanwhile, once Felicity gets over her (quite justified) antagonism toward Ray, she allows herself to settle for and into a relationship with him.

 

Overall Ray or someone like him is necessary to be the catalyst for forward motion on all fronts.  If Oliver manages to reclaim Queen Consolidated, we effectively have a kind of repeat of Season Two.  Felicity stays as "executive secretary" as Oliver plays CEO (or has Walter do it offscreen).  With the resources of Queen Consolidated behind him, he potentially short circuits Sara's murder, eliminating conflict with the League of Assassins, potentially resulting in Malcom Merlyn's death.  On all fronts conflict and trouble is reduced or eliminated.

 

Which is great for the fictional characters, but kind of sucks for us because conflict/trouble is story.  There's a reason that "Happily Ever After" occurs at the end of stories.  It's because "Happily Ever After" is really damned boring to watch.

[BkWurm1]

It's because "Happily Ever After" is really damned boring to watch.

 

Even Happily Ever After though doesn't have to mean nothing ever happens even if a general level of happy is maintained. Which is my awkward way of saying I've found this season and Oliver and Felicity's relationship very entertaining to watch.  Most of this season was as close to HEA as we might ever get and it wasn't boring, just the opposite, it was highly watchable and rewatchable (minus undead sister in a basement)  Bring on more HEA and I'll be very happy as well. 

[Ann Mack]

I can't really say that Happy Ever After is boring or not really haven't had too many opportunities to watch any show go beyond 7-8 episodes (or less) before something brings a dark cloud over "the happy" part. Think it would be really good idea if a show wrote for the "happy" instead of the "drama" and see how many episodes they could get from that. "Happy" doesn't necessarily mean you are out of challenges for them. Writers could try I would love to see them actually try.

[hogwash]

Ditto on the Happily Every After. It's so much better to watch. The show did great shifting from Lauriver but fumbled hard when they actually had to start writing Oliver and Felicity as the main pairing of the the show. Because when it comes down to it, they want the main pairing of the show to be horribly toxic in a hundred different ways. But it doesn't work for Oliver and Felicity because Felicity knew Oliver was an asshole, liar, spree killer and vigilante. She still fell in love with him. In S03 and 408, the pull of their original plans for the main paring was too hard to resist. So Oliver and Felicity were garbage to watch in S03. They did nothing to build on their relationship from the first 2 seasons. They were at odds, angsty, and "star-crossed." They sucked. I'll take happily ever after over that any day. 

[statsgirl]

Me four on the Happily Ever After.  I can think of more shows that I stopped watching because they broke up the couple after putting them together (ER, Castle, Moonlighting, Grey's Anatomy) or shows that almost put them together but pulled them apart at the last moment (NCIS) than shows I stopped watching because the couple was Happily Ever After.

However, I feel like the biggest problem was still the execution. The main priority of Ray off-screen was to sell another spin-off and the secondary priority was to become Felicity's love interest and achieve what you've written. I definitely dislike Ray less and less as time goes by, because I understand what the writers were going for and that they did make him more likable, but I can't quite forget the not-quite-right feelings I got for him for the first almost 3/4 of the season.

 

 

Perhaps if they had Ray be the adorkable character with a personality he was in the end of the season and been that guy that bumbled and pursued FS, things might have been different. Perhaps he and their relationship might have helped create a crucible in which F&O's relationship was truly forged. But as it stands R/F was just a forced relationship stall. There was nothing substantial to the R/F relationship that stood out on its own merits. Every major relationship moment was a direct response to something OQ did. And frankly, OQ was happy with FS being happy in her relationship with RP. If she had not made the move in 320, I doubt OQ would have come back to pursue a relationship with her. As it was, he basically planned to sacrifice himself to save SC, so the R/F relationship never really fazed him. So long as FS was happy, OQ was happy- it didn't matter if he was with her or not. Things seem different in s4, but that has nothing to do with RP.

Agreeing with both of these.

 

The introduction of Barry Allen went so well, they thought they could repeat it with their new spin-off hopeful.  They didn't realize that having Barry on for only 2 episodes was not the same as having him on for a whole season as they had Ray, and that Brandon Routh didn't work as a screwball comedy player against Felicity, it wasn't until he was introduced to Oliver and SA's straight man that the character really took off. Basically, he was wasted for the first 17 episodes of season 3.

 

 

I think Felicity craved the idea of Ray more than Ray himself.  In 3.05 we see Felicity make a change to herself and transform from Goth Ninja Hacker Queen to Conventionally Nerdy IT Girl.  When we meet her in Season 1.03 that's who she's trying to be.  She even makes a point of telling Oliver that she doesn't want to get dragged into some Shakespearean family drama (and ultimately clues him into the perpetrator).  Felicity's journey over Seasons 1 and 2 mirrors Oliver's.  Where Oliver makes a journey to becoming human again, Felicity makes a journey to becoming the unconventional person she needs to be.

Felicity was already on that path though. In 2x21, she told Oliver that if she hadn't met him, she would have stayed the IT Girl but he brought something more into her life.  Even 7 episodes earlier, in Time Of Death, she wants to learn self-defense, she wants to take a bullet for someone to prove she can do physical things too.

 

So Felicity was well on the way to being a badass again when Oliver put the brakes on her involvement.

 

More than Ray as a person, Felicity craved wanting to matter to someone. Abandoned by her father, unable to understand or be understood by her mother, she just wanted to belong.  In a deleted scene from The Man Under The Hood (2x19) Felicity told Sara that being in the lair with them was the first time she truly felt at home.

 

If Oliver had been willing to try a relationship with Felicity, she wouldn't have given Ray a second glance.  But Oliver kept pushing her away and pushing her away, cruelly at times, and Ray seemed to appreciate her at least until he didn't at all in the horrible Suicidal Tendencies episode.  When Oliver and Diggle excluded her from their strategizing, Ray listened to her.  Who wouldn't have been grateful to be important to someone?

 

So in spite of Andrew Kreisburg saying that they wanted Felicity to have a real choice in which man she wanted to be with, there was no choice because Oliver wasn't available. Ray was someone she thought she could be with because she didn't want to be alone but she was never given a real choice,

[johntfs]

For me the Felicity/Ray relationship can be summed up by the song lyric "If you're not with the one you love, love the one you're with." 

 

On the surface Ray is perfect for Felicity, especially with Oliver pushing her away, so she kind of wants to love Ray in a "fake it 'til you make it" way.  Ray also wants to love Felicity and kind of does, but the scene where he leaves her in bed after they've made love and goes to fly in his suit pretty well tell you everything you need to know about his priorities.

 

As for 3.17 I don't really blame Ray for being upset or distrusting Felicity as he does.  She has been lying to him for most of the season.  She's his love and corporate vice-President who is effectively guilty of aiding and abetting multiple acts of assault, battery and even murder.  The idea that the crazy guy with the archery kit who killed the hell out of a bunch of people a couple years back has now gone back to killing the hell out of people isn't that huge of a leap.

 

Also, figure down in his gut, Ray knows that Felicity loves Oliver and not him.  On some level he's probably always known.  It doesn't manifest fully until the "I love you"/I'll get you lemon jello" moment, but this is the point that Ray and Felicity's relationship begins to end.

[statsgirl]

Or in the words of an older song "If I'm not facing the face that I fancy, I fancy the face I face."  At least on Ray's part.

On the surface Ray is perfect for Felicity, especially with Oliver pushing her away, so she kind of wants to love Ray in a "fake it 'til you make it" way.  Ray also wants to love Felicity and kind of does, but the scene where he leaves her in bed after they've made love and goes to fly in his suit pretty well tell you everything you need to know about his priorities.

Yeah, that sums them up pretty much.  Rebound for both of them but Ray didn't know it.

 

I agree that Ray had a reason to be upset that Felicity had been lying to him.  But.....  he'd been lying to her from the first time he went looking for her at Tech Village and got her to give him the way to hack into QC's files (illegally!) so that he could take over the company.

 

He also lied to her about why he wanted the company (for the Applied Science tech, not to do a good thing to help Starling City).  Then he lied to her about why he wanted the mine in the Cupid episode.  While Felicity was singing his praises on what good care he would take of the mine, he really only wanted it to power his suit.

 

And after Ray got Felicity to fix the problems with his suit, he didn't tell her for weeks that he had got it to work and was flying around Starling City in it.  Considering that she was the one who solved a multitude of problems he had finishing it, starting with getting the tech that could build it, it was very shabby not to tell her that he had it working.

 

So when it comes to lying and keeping secrets, Ray doesn't have any moral ground on Felicity.  Plus it wasn't Felicity's secret to tell.

 

This is when my support for the Ray/Felicity relationship really fell apart, partly because of her need to keep Oliver's secret but mostly because of Ray keeping secrets from her.  The worst thing for me though was when he told her that he didn't trust her judgement because she had feelings for Oliver (mansplainin') and then trusted Oliver (Oliver!) when he told Ray he should trust Felicity and did a 180 and started trusting her again because the crazy bad man who he had been hunting down told him to,

 

The fact that Felicity was the one to apologize to Ray instead of the other way around was icing on the break-up cake.

[hogwash]

"From the moment we've met, I have held nothing back from you." Shut up forever, Ray. After the stalker introduction, I'm honestly kinda surprised they managed to make him worse. I can't believe they decided to sic him on Felicity for 18+ episodes. Poor Felicity. 

[AyChihuahua]

"From the moment we've met, I have held nothing back from you." Shut up forever, Ray. After the stalker introduction, I'm honestly kinda surprised they managed to make him worse. I can't believe they decided to sic him on Felicity for 18+ episodes. Poor Felicity. 

"From the moment we met, I lied like a sack of crap to you, in order to use your skills for my personal gain. Then I stalked you, lied to you more and more, got you to sleep with me, used your skills for more personal gain, condescendingly called you a stupid pea-brained girl whose brain doesn't work right because you failed to validate me, insulted your friend Laurel in the same way, nearly killed one of your very best friends who's one of the sweetest kids in the world, nearly killed/sent the love of your life to prison because I am a self-centered moron, then took the word of that dude I thought was evil when I couldn't care less about your word, and pathetically couldn't figure out how to throw a punch with a billion-dollar punching supersuit."

 

Worst character ever.

[Happy Harpy]

Even Happily Ever After though doesn't have to mean nothing ever happens even if a general level of happy is maintained.

I've been waiting for the show with enough balls to go for it, prove that it actually works better and especially on the long haul than everlasting will they-won't they/soapy drama, and finally free TV of the urban legend also known as the Moonlighting curse. If not for the BM huge misstep, in S4 I began to think that Arrow had learned from its S3 mistakes and could be that show.

The writing, on a general plotting and pace standpoint in particular, was imo quite uneven and only gradually better than S3 (no comparison to S1 and S2-A, or even S2-B). Oliver/Felicity in a stable, happy and all but boring relationship that kept why I liked them in the first place, their partnership, at the center, is one of the two main reasons why I could enjoy S4 and find it miles better than S3 in spite of its flaws (the other reason being of course the writing for the main character improving imo leaps and bounds; again, crossover aside). They had imo most of the best written, compelling or funny scenes this season.

I don't think I'll ever get tired or bored with it and all the more since, as @Ann Mack said, it's a rarity on TV.

[kismet]

Or in the words of an older song "If I'm not facing the face that I fancy, I fancy the face I face."  At least on Ray's part.

Yeah, that sums them up pretty much.  Rebound for both of them but Ray didn't know it.

 

I agree that Ray had a reason to be upset that Felicity had been lying to him.  But.....  he'd been lying to her from the first time he went looking for her at Tech Village and got her to give him the way to hack into QC's files (illegally!) so that he could take over the company.

 

He also lied to her about why he wanted the company (for the Applied Science tech, not to do a good thing to help Starling City).  Then he lied to her about why he wanted the mine in the Cupid episode.  While Felicity was singing his praises on what good care he would take of the mine, he really only wanted it to power his suit.

 

And after Ray got Felicity to fix the problems with his suit, he didn't tell her for weeks that he had got it to work and was flying around Starling City in it.  Considering that she was the one who solved a multitude of problems he had finishing it, starting with getting the tech that could build it, it was very shabby not to tell her that he had it working.

 

So when it comes to lying and keeping secrets, Ray doesn't have any moral ground on Felicity.  Plus it wasn't Felicity's secret to tell.

 

This is when my support for the Ray/Felicity relationship really fell apart, partly because of her need to keep Oliver's secret but mostly because of Ray keeping secrets from her.  The worst thing for me though was when he told her that he didn't trust her judgement because she had feelings for Oliver (mansplainin') and then trusted Oliver (Oliver!) when he told Ray he should trust Felicity and did a 180 and started trusting her again because the crazy bad man who he had been hunting down told him to,

 

The fact that Felicity was the one to apologize to Ray instead of the other way around was icing on the break-up cake.

Would you look at that Ray bringing us all together :) I AGREE with you on your entire post in a relationship post :) Plus we all know that secret keeping (esp when its not your secret) is not the same as lying in the Flarrowverse. Ray never explicitly asked FS to tell him who the Arrow was. It wasn't even until 317, that RP ever mentioned wanting to track down the Arrow. So FS, NEVER LIED to RP - she just didn't reveal information that was not hers to reveal. There's a difference between lying and concealing. Meanwhile, as you have delineated - RP actually lied to FS on multiple occasions & kept certain truths from her on multiple occasions. So there was no moral high ground. They all were not telling each other everything, the only difference is RP actually lied and manipulated FS on multiple occasions. And then the writers made FS apologize first - SHAME ON YOU Arrow WRITERS!!!

 

Or to put it more bluntly, I would like to second what @AyChihuahua so wonderfully wrote below:

 

"From the moment we met, I lied like a sack of crap to you, in order to use your skills for my personal gain. Then I stalked you, lied to you more and more, got you to sleep with me, used your skills for more personal gain, condescendingly called you a stupid pea-brained girl whose brain doesn't work right because you failed to validate me, insulted your friend Laurel in the same way, nearly killed one of your very best friends who's one of the sweetest kids in the world, nearly killed/sent the love of your life to prison because I am a self-centered moron, then took the word of that dude I thought was evil when I couldn't care less about your word, and pathetically couldn't figure out how to throw a punch with a billion-dollar punching supersuit."

 

Worst character ever.

[tv echo]

I don't recall if this has been discussed before...

 

Do you think Oliver finally confided in Felicity during their 5-month summer hiatus everything that happened to him during the five years when he was away?  If he didn't, that would be curious.  When they had their first date, it seemed like he was starting to tell her (before the explosion).  It would be odd if he still hasn't confided in her, especially now that he's proposed to her. 

 

On the other hand, if he did tell her about those five years, then Felicity would believe that he's now being open with her about everything - which would underscore her reaction in 408 to his still keeping secrets.

Edited January 14, 2016 by tv echo

[way2interested]

I don't recall if this has been discussed before...

Do you think Oliver finally confided in Felicity during their 5-month summer hiatus everything that happened to him during the five years when he was away? If he didn't, that would be curious. When they had their first date, it seemed like he was starting to tell her (before the explosion). It would be odd if he still hasn't confided in her, especially now that he's proposed to her.

On the other hand, if he did tell her about those five years, then Felicity would believe that he's now being open with her about everything - which would underscore her reaction in 408 to his still keeping secrets.

It's a fine line, to be sure. Honestly, I don't think he's told her everything (mostly because we don't even know everything and Oliver still needs to suddenly remember something from his fifth year to help in the present, case in point: Felicity didn't know who Constantine was), but that's only because the past for anyone is really hard to share with someone, least of all Oliver.

I do think he's shared more than we're let on, at least in my head canon. I feel like he's told her some more details here and there (like in 401, he casually mentioned how he would cook on the island, "cooked" and "uncooked"), but I don't think she'll know everything. Heck, Oliver knows less about Felicity at this point of what we've seen on screen, but then again she's not the one with the incredibly violent and PTSD inducing past.

With the whole "trust" thing regarding his past though, I feel like it's somewhat OK considering that Felicity is the one who knows the most about what happened to him during those five years (she knows that was in Hong Kong, that he came back to Starling City at one point, the debacle with Slade, etc.), and she knows some of the worse aspects of his past (that he has killed people, that he's killed people more than just for survival, that he's made bad decisions, etc.). So, I would say that even though she doesn't know everything, she still knows the most, and I feel like that holds some weight.

As for how that would come into that argument about trust, Oliver's made it clear that he doesn't want to share about his past, which is why 301 and 320 were an important part in their relationship, and Felicity doesn't press him about it, so I think that's just how their relationship is, and I actually kind of like it like that. It makes every moment of sharing about pasts more important and developing for them.

[looptab]

I don't know that he would have told her everything. Afterall, she didn't even know why he has chosen to remove the dragon tattoo..*headdeask*

[kismet]

I think he shared a lot with her. But I think there is still a lot of secrets and aspects of his past that he keeps to himself because it's his character and also fo plot purposes.

I really enjoy that she doesn't press or force him to reveal everything. I also think FS has some secrets & aspects about herself that she is keeping.

Trust & honesty is an interesting part of their relationship. Because I feel like they have a deep trust in each other, but are also not completely honest with each other or themselves. It makes for some interesting dilemmas. I feel like they have an understanding to not lie to each other in the the present, but what their requirements are for things related to the past is very murky waters.

I feel like BM and PapaSmoak will be used to level the honesty & trust playground for them. And it will be used as an opportunity for them to establish what truths can be kept private and which ones need to be shared. Or at least that is what I hope we get out of this BM drama a stronger more open Olicity.

[statsgirl]

Good question.

 

I think he's more open with her now, like casually mentioning that on the island it was cooked or uncooked or telling her he wasn't always on Lian Yu, but I doubt he would have told her the really bad parts because he would want to protect her and he'd want to put those away in a box that he doesn't open.

 

People who go through very bad experiences often don't want to talk about them.  My father never talked about his time in a Russian POW camp and I couldn't get my grandmother to talk about those she had lost during the war and what it was like for her to live through it.  It doesn't always help to talk about the bad things, sometimes it can make them worse.

 

I think Oliver might tell Felicity some things but just enough that she knows he's honest with her, not the really bad things (Yao Fei shot in front of him, killing the General in Hong Kong).

 

Not knowing why he got the tattoo removed was really bad though.  Writing for exposition.

 

He probably didn't tell her about Samantha because why would he?  She knew he slept around before the island (he wouldn't want to keep reminding her of that) and he thinks the baby died.

Edited January 14, 2016 by statsgirl

[kismet]

I think I figured out why they chose "Radioactive" by Imagine Dragons. It has LL's favorite line in it about "knowing in my bones". Please see the lyrics below. I heard it while in the car the other day and had an AHA moment.

 

Also heard Jana Kramer's "I got the boy" on the radio and that seems to encapsulate the FS/OQ/LL relationships. FTR, LL got the boy.

 

"Radioactive"

Whoa, oh, oh
Whoa, oh, oh
Whoa, oh, oh
Whoa

 

I'm waking up to ash and dust
I wipe my brow and I sweat my rust
I'm breathing in the chemicals

I'm breaking in, shaping up, then checking out on the prison bus

This is it, the apocalypse
Whoa

 

I'm waking up, I feel it in my bones
Enough to make my system blow
Welcome to the new age, to the new age
Welcome to the new age, to the new age
Whoa, oh, oh, oh, oh, whoa, oh, oh, oh, I'm radioactive, radioactive
Whoa, oh, oh, oh, oh, whoa, oh, oh, oh, I'm radioactive, radioactive

 

I raise my flag and dye my clothes
It's a revolution, I suppose
We're painted red to fit right in
Whoa

 

I'm breaking in, shaping up, then checking out on the prison bus
This is it, the apocalypse
Whoa

 

I'm waking up, I feel it in my bones
Enough to make my system blow
Welcome to the new age, to the new age
Welcome to the new age, to the new age
Whoa, oh, oh, oh, oh, whoa, oh, oh, oh, I'm radioactive, radioactive
Whoa, oh, oh, oh, oh, whoa, oh, oh, oh, I'm radioactive, radioactive

 

All systems go, the sun hasn't died
Deep in my bones, straight from inside

I'm waking up, I feel it in my bones
Enough to make my system blow
Welcome to the new age, to the new age

Welcome to the new age, to the new age
Whoa, oh, oh, oh, oh, whoa, oh, oh, oh, I'm radioactive, radioactive
Whoa, oh, oh, oh, oh, whoa, oh, oh, oh, I'm radioactive, radioactive

Edited January 17, 2016 by kismet

[bijoux]

Also heard Jana Kramer's "I got the boy" on the radio and that seems to encapsulate the FS/OQ/LL relationships. FTR, LL got the boy.

 

It's funny that you bring this up because it struck me recently that it appears that Laurel prefers pre-island Ollie to post-island Oliver to this day. I can't pinpoint an incident or incidents that make me think so, it's just a general vibe I get. Maybe because, his douchiness and general assholery aside, she was happier with her life and herself at the time.

[kismet]

It's funny that you bring this up because it struck me recently that it appears that Laurel prefers pre-island Ollie to post-island Oliver to this day. I can't pinpoint an incident or incidents that make me think so, it's just a general vibe I get. Maybe because, his douchiness and general assholery aside, she was happier with her life and herself at the time.

He also was a project and someone to fix/control. He may not be perfect now, but he no longer needs anyone's daily guidance. He needs FS's inspiration, but not her daily guidance. He relies on FS as an equal partner for advice & guidance; whereas in his youth he just let LL run the show and if he disagreed with the plan he just would avoid it, sabotage it or cheat on her. I can't honestly imagine LL being happy in a relationship with someone as independent as OQ. She prefers her boyfriends more co-dependent and needing her. It's why I think she started to get bored with Tommy when he started to actually get his life together.

[bijoux]

Laurel definitely strikes me as a person who likes a project. And I do think there's enough vanity in her that she liked feeling superior to Ollie. Which is something that I imagine people commented on regularly, being that he was a professional college drop out and she had big, bright plans for her future.

[BkWurm1]

Do you think that means that Laurel will forever be unhappy because she's either stuck with a constant wreck that needs fixing or a fixer upper that once fixed no longer makes her happy?  (Question open to everyone)  Is there anyone that could "fit" with who she is?

[thegirlsleuth]

I think there's a lot of problems with the Laurel character, but one of the reasons I think she doesn't fit on Arrow is that in her ideal version Laurel Lance/Black Canary should be the central hero of the story, and this story already has one: Oliver.  It's also one of the reasons I think that she and Oliver don't balance each other out.  I like the idea of a laid back yet super-competent guy--one she doesn't need to fix--who is more than happy to send her out into the world to fight crime, supporting her and celebrating her wins.  Wash on Firefly is a model for this, and I've also seen fanfic (which I haven't read) which pairs her with Cisco, which isn't a bad idea.  I would be very happy to see this romance explored on a show that isn't Arrow, but I don't have a whole lot of interest in seeing Arrow burn a whole lot of story time on Laurel or her romance.

[kismet]

Do you think that means that Laurel will forever be unhappy because she's either stuck with a constant wreck that needs fixing or a fixer upper that once fixed no longer makes her happy?  (Question open to everyone)  Is there anyone that could "fit" with who she is?

Does a tombstone count?

 

As LL is written now, I don't see any ideal LI fitting her expectations & pre-requisites.

[BkWurm1]

 So maybe a fanboy of her own?  One that could just adore her without her fixing him first? 

 

Cisco is still 12 in my eyes but I get the vibe talked about.  (Edited:  Groan - I honestly didn't mean to make the vibe pun.  Sorry.)

 

Wash was a great counter balance to Zoe, one I would never have thought up myself but now, yeah, made perfect sense.  He never felt the need to compete with her and adored everything about her without being threatened by HER abilities.  (He had his own insecurities but that's a different subject)  Problem for me is I agree that Zoe was worthy of his awe and appreciation. 

 

Maybe if I could see someone else besides Laurel that thinks Laurel as BC is awesome, I could better buy into it. 

Edited January 18, 2016 by BkWurm1

[thegirlsleuth]

I think I was thinking Laurel as she was conceived, rather than how she was executed,  where she was a successful character and believable hero.

[BkWurm1]

I think I was thinking Laurel as she was conceived, rather than how she was executed,  where she was a successful character and believable hero.

Still, love is blind and all that.  There's hope for her yet!

[Genki]

If I must commit, I kinda ship Ray Palmer and Laurel...mainly off the show, but I think the Ray (post 3.17) that the EPs wanted as a nutty rich genius would play well against Laurel's Straight(wo)man.

 

He ticks a lot of boxes for her.

 

- Rich/Handsome/Successful

- Seems laid-back enough when not obsessing about a project

- no social graces so a fixer upper, that I suspect will never get fixed

- Can see him happily letting Laurel take the lead in many ways without her walking all-over him (which I think she did with Tommy, he was always trying to prove himself worthy)

 

I saw the most chemistry in that one scene they had together that I ever scene for LL, he actually made her likeable and competent for me, (but that could be because he was such an A-hole that episode), they had a bit of an antagonistic vibe that could have shifted to URST.

 

Laurel would walk all over Cisco IMO.

Edited January 18, 2016 by Genki

[kismet]

I could ship LL & RP, I always did think they had chemistry. I agree that their one scene together had the most spark & chemistry for each of their characters for the duration of s3. The only problem is LL does not seem bound for LoT and I don't think I could tolerate RP on ARROW just so LL can have a LI.

 

Honestly, if forced to cast somebody for her LI, I would bring back Donner the DA only because I want to see Dylan Bruce on my screen. The relationship would probably be a disaster and he was kinda of an ass. However, I don't care if he graces my screen.

 

LL has not worked as a character in ARROW since s2, no LI is going to fix what is fundamentally wrong with how they write, act & execute her character. If she must get a LI, I don't really care who it is because there is probably no one that fits the bill for the tall task of making LL an interesting and relevant part of ARROW. So if she must get a LI, I just want somebody attractive that can act. So far the only 2 quasi LIs that have managed to do that for LL have be Tommy & Donner. Blood could act, but the whole villain thing worked directly against his attractiveness. Ted Grant couldn't act and his attractiveness for me is marginal at best.

[tv echo]

Regarding the sometimes described 'suddenness' of Oliver's romantic feelings for Felicity between S2 and S3 (and asking her out on a date in 3x01)...

 

I've been re-reading the tie-in comics and Arrow Season 2.5 is really critical in dropping clues as to Oliver's developing feelings for Felicity - esp. the "Blood" story when Felicity is kidnapped and Oliver & Roy have to recruit the Huntress for help because Diggle is away.  Even Roy and Helena take notice of Oliver's feelings.  (MG has said that the tie-in comics are 'canon' so I'm discussing these comics' events the same as show events.)

 

Roy: “Empty. Now what?”
Oliver: “Felicity would try and leave a trail for us to follow.”
Roy: “How do you know that?”
Oliver: “Because she knows I’ll always look for her.”
*  *  *
Roy: “What is it? What’d they say?”
Oliver: “If I turn myself over to him, Blood will let her go.”
Roy: “If you do this, he’ll kill you.”
Oliver: "I know. But I just got her back from Slade... I can't lose her again." 
*  *  *
Roy: “It’s almost midnight. You going to fill me in on the plan yet?”
Oliver: “It’s simple. I turn myself over to Blood. Felicity goes free.”
Roy: “Look, I get the stoic, monosyllabic thing is your standard gear but something about this is different. Someone. Because it’s Felicity.”
Oliver: "Since the business with Slade... I can't stop thinking about her... Seeing things from a different perspective." 
Roy: "That almost sounded like you have feelings."
Oliver: “Roy –“
Roy: “Point is, this isn’t happening by doing what Blood says. If we’re gonna get Felicity back… it’s gonna take us both.”
*  *  *
Helena: “It doesn’t seem like Oliver to make that kind of mistake…”
Roy: “He didn’t make a mistake.”
Helena: “He must really love her to surrender himself like that, to a man who wouldn’t keep his word, with no assurances that he’d keep his word.”
Roy: “I don’t know what Oliver’s feelings for Felicity are. But he didn’t make a mistake. He didn’t miscalculate and he didn’t put his trust in someone he shouldn’t have. His last communication to me was ‘Tell her I’m sorry.’ It was code in case our transmissions were being monitored.”
Helena: “Code for what?”
Roy: ‘Follow my GPS… Do whatever it takes to get me and Felicity back. And that’s what I’m doing.  Is the Felicity of it all gonna be a problem for you? I need to know.”
Helena: “It’ll be fine. Let’s get Oliver and his new girlfriend back.”
*  *  *
Helena: “You’re both assuming a lot, asking me to help you rescue your new girlfriend.”
Oliver: “She’s not my girlfriend.”
Roy: “She’s not his girlfriend.”
Oliver: “But she’s someone I care about. Like I care about you…”
Helena: “Then let’s get her back.”
*  *  *
Oliver: “Things are different now. I don’t kill anymore.”
Helena: “Really? I’m pretty sure if the Count was still alive, he’d have something to say about that.”
Oliver: “That was… different.”
Helena: “Let me guess: He threatened the bottle blonde down there.”
Oliver: “It was her or him. I choose her.”
Helena: “Maybe after we save her, she can tell me what that feels like.”
*  *  *
Felicity: “I mean – I know that sounded like I was hoping it’s temporary, but – you’re not still crazy anymore, are you?”
Helena: “You’re adorable. I can see why Oliver likes you.”
Felicity: “He doesn’t like me. I mean, not that way. We’re co-workers. And friends. But mostly co-workers.”
Helena: “Does Oliver know that?”
*  *  *
Oliver: “Thank you for helping us. For helping me.”
Helena: “Can I give you some advice? Don’t let that one get away.”
Oliver: “Who?”
Helena: “You know who.”

Edited January 18, 2016 by tv echo

[way2interested]

Regarding the sometimes described 'suddenness' of Oliver's romantic feelings for Felicity between S2 and S3 (and asking her out on a date in 3x01)...

I've been re-reading the tie-in comics and Arrow Season 2.5 is really critical in dropping clues as to Oliver's developing feelings for Felicity - esp. the "Blood" story when Felicity is kidnapped and Oliver & Roy have to recruit the Huntress for help because Diggle is away. Even Roy and Helena take notice of Oliver's feelings. (MG has said that the tie-in comics are 'canon' so I'm discussing these comics' events the same as show events.)

Ha, I loved that arc in 2.5. It was fanfic-y in the best kind of way, like a good portion of 4a.

Yep, this part was like a billboard of "Oliver's feelings are not sudden, he's been thinking about this through most of the summer," and it, coupled with their moments in s2 kind of show that Oliver's definitely had some romantic feelings for Felicity that have continued to grow. To me, my only jolt of "suddenness" didn't come from his feelings or the date or his newfound openness with Felicity, but at the ending. His half-way admittance of "I love you" did throw me off-guard just because they only did go on a 1/5 of a date.Then the show goes on this as an absolute truth (Oliver loves Felicity) for the rest of the series so far.

However, considering the idea that they live very chaotic lives, which have given them many intimate moments as friends and as possibly something more, and the idea that Oliver wasn't necessarily proclaiming his love in 301 but just stating his feelings, I still think that it's as acceptable for the story. Even with Oliver telling Felicity that line in 301, he never really committed to his feelings whatsoever, which was the whole problem in the first place. Ideally, we would have gotten more of their flirtationship that they had at the beginning of 301, but there was enough to get the jist that they've been acting like this for a while.

[bijoux]

To me, my only jolt of "suddenness" didn't come from his feelings or the date or his newfound openness with Felicity, but at the ending. His half-way admittance of "I love you" did throw me off-guard just because they only did go on a 1/5 of a date.Then the show goes on this as an absolute truth (Oliver loves Felicity) for the rest of the series so far.

 

To me, that "Don't ask me to say that I don't love you" simply rounded off the beach scene from the end of S2. It was a confirmation to me that he didn't take the words from the mansion back because he couldn't even then. And that was 5 months before their date.

[Tazmania]

I have a lot of issues with the episode 4x10. I wanted more emotional beats between Felicity and three people who love her; her mother Donna, her fiancé Oliver and her friend John Diggle. Unfortunately, we only got two short scenes with Oliver and none with Donna & Diggle.

However, there was one positive that I really liked. When Oliver kissed Felicity after putting on her engagement ring on her finger, he kissed her on the mouth. Sure, it was a very tame kiss and the camera was angled in such a way that we didn't see anything, but usually what happens in TV and films that a romantic partner always kiss the injured/disabled person on the forehead, thus reinforcing the idea that sickness/disability makes a person either asexual or less sexually desirable. Not sure if it was written in the script, or director asked for it or the actors chose to do it, I am really grateful that the show chose it to be a kiss on the mouth, making sure that the audience know that Felicity Smoak and all the other people in similar conditions are still sexually desirable. Sometimes Arrow gets it right and I just wanna point it out.

Go Guggenheim/Wendy M and Stephen Amell/Emily Bett Rickards.

Edited January 22, 2016 by Tazmania

[EmilyBettFan]

You got that right!

[tennisgurl]

Man, the Olicity was so strong in this episode, and they were so cute and supportive and lovely and they just warmed my heart...but in the back of my mind, I was just like "tell her about the stupid kid Oliver, tell her about the kid..."

 

Why must this stupid plot ruin my enjoyment of all Olicity scenes? Why?!?

[lemotomato]

Since all the writers after 408 have been ignoring the existence of the BM and kid situation, then I'm also going to be in denial until the show forces me to acknowledge it.