Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[statsgirl]

Good thought, icandigit.  I wish they would do webisodes of Diggle and Felicity hanging out between traumas.

[BkWurm1]

This, totally. I don't know if there was any truth to it, but I remember there were rumours that Scott Patterson and Lauren Graham on Gilmore Girls (Luke & Lorelai) didn't really get along but you would never be able to tell given how much they sparkled on screen. Because they were professionals and it was their job.

 

I recall it explained that the issue was not so much a dislike toward each other but an issue with a difference in acting techniques.  I guess Patterson was a learn your lines and do your job kind of guy and Lauren Graham is a big goofy, giggling goof ball which if you have ever seen her in interviews it's hilarious but I could see how frustrating it would be if the slapstick never stops.  But obviously they figured out early on a way to blend their approach.  I found them one of the most believable couples on TV. 

You never see lighter moments of Oliver and Laurel together even just cracking a joke and making one another laugh because they're just bogged down by so much drama and angst and for me as a viewer, it's just not an enjoyable experience at all.

 

They have a relationship where I would always be waiting for the other shoe to drop.  They don't seem like they could have a happy ending together.  Their happy ending IMO only comes from understanding that it's ok if they aren't together and that it's not giving up or losing if they seek their happiness somewhere else.  It seems clear to me that neither can give what the other needs even if there is this left over lingering feeling from the past. 

Edited May 30, 2014 by BkWurm1

[tv echo]

I want Felicity to stay the heart and conscience of Team Arrow.  But I read on another thread that, either in a recent interview or at a recent comic-con, Katie Cassidy said that Laurel was the heart of the show.  It worries me that maybe she had been told something similar by the EPs about Laurel's role.

[tv echo]

Regarding Green Arrow and Black Canary, I never read the comic books but, from reading fan threads, I know that they get together and break up multiple times, get married, divorce, and then separate for good.  

 

For the TV show, I was thinking that they could go the Buffy-Angel route (though, with a happier ending).  Angel started off as a supporting character on the Buffy show and became Buffy's great love.  But then he got his own spin-off show and they separated.  Eventually, Buffy found great love with Spike, and Angel found great love with Cordelia.  Arrow and Black Canary could get together and break up a few times.  I don't think they need to go so far as marriage/divorce.  Then they separate permanently, realizing that they're not good for each other.  Black Canary leaves Arrow, perhaps to her own spin-off show.  Eventually, they each find true love with other people. 

Edited May 30, 2014 by tv echo

[Password]

Regardless of what she's been told, for right now the heart of the show is Felicity. We don't know what will happen in future, but Laurel's role on the show thus far negates any heart-like figure. Although I do worry that could be what the EPs tell KC.

[quarks]

At this point I kinda feel that Arrow has now kinda gotten together with Black Canary several times - pre-island with both Laurel and Sara; in the first season with Laurel, and in the second season with Sara.

 

I think things were left open enough with Sara that the show could still end with Oliver and Sara together - they broke up on friendly terms and were able to fight together afterwards. I'm pretty sure that was done deliberately - I don't think the show wants to completely nix the possibility of a final Green Arrow/Black Canary endgame, and whatever else can be said about Oliver/Sara, they are nowhere near the toxic level of Oliver/Laurel - but apart from that final possibility, I really don't need more on again/off again with Arrow and Canary, whoever the Canary is.

[Password]

Sara and Oliver were a strange relationship to me. Can someone explain to me what the relationship actually accomplished for the storyline? I'm being very stubborn with that relationship because I can't help but feel for Laurel. Her sister threw her under the bus cheating the first time. The second time, even though it wasn't cheating, couldn't have felt any better.

[quarks]

Arrowlimbo, the showrunners were pretty clear on this: they put Sara and Oliver together to be an obstacle for Felicity and Oliver (this was said back in December/January interviews). At the time I thought this was just because the showrunners felt that Felicity and Oliver were moving too fast - which is still true. An d also to help kill Laurel/Oliver, something really later undercut with the "I've always felt drawn to you" and "I know you better than anyone" speeches later in the season. In retrospect, I think it was to add to the "Gotcha!" and "Fakeout!" of the finale - which a Guggenheim interview suggested was already planned out by episode 13. 

 

I think we're meant to read it as the following: sometime this season, between episodes 6 to 10, Oliver started realizing that he had Feelings for Felicity, but couldn't act on them because of the whole "I can't be with someone I really care about" crap, his own inability to have a functional, trusting relationship, his ongoing post Shado trauma, and Felicity's interest in Barry. So he turned to Sara instead, arguably in part to try to get over Felicity, and even tried to open up to Sara/let her in, as per Laurel's advice (sigh), only, as the blocking showed, he still wasn't letting himself really fall for Sara either - either because he still had feelings for Felicity or because this is Oliver Queen, take your pick.

 

I can see what they were going for, although the execution didn't entirely work for me.

[wonderwall]

What's hilarious about what KC said was the fact that Manu Bennett said not long after that Felicity was the heart of the show :p 

 

Laurel might've been the heart in the first half of the first season, but she stopped being that. I think the reason why is because KC feels Laurel brings an element of realism into Arrow, which is quite false indeed and people have caught onto this. While Felicity, she does add a sense of realism and levity. I just hope we can explore her character more in season 3. 

I also think that the EPs said that they didn't have time to properly explore Felicity in season 2, so hopefully this indicates that they care enough for her character to make her arc work and mesh well with the overall plot. 

[Password]

@quarks I agree and that's why the ILY was so jarring. It sounded and looked sincere, but because he got together with Sara (and every other trait about him that went to snot), I almost couldn't follow that. That and not a week before he and Sara had a non conversation about moving in together. The barriers makes it seems like something you'd do for an OTP.

 

If it were vocalised by someone like Diggle, it might've made sense because he notices things like that (like asking Felicity how she felt about team Soliver. Actually someone once called it Saliva but that's just mean.)

 

His feelings for Felicity are very difficult to read, whereas you can see her feelings for him in her whole face. He treats her like a little sister sometimes, although if that's his way of keeping distance, I understand. I suppose him killing the Count was telling. But then I also heard SA said the Barry thing wasn't about jealousy. Suffice to say, the second half of s2 made no sense. :D

 

Not to mention Sara's whole "someone who can harness the light still inside you". Unless Laurel has a super power, I'd say his light diminishes around her, whereas Felicity was the only person who encouraged a non-kill solution in the finale.

 

Hopefully s3 clears it up because his face at the beach was...cute.

Edited May 30, 2014 by ArrowLimbo

[quarks]

Well, we do have sort of opposite reactions here - the Oliver/Felicity part worked for me. What didn't quite work for me was Oliver/Sara.  First, I'm still not really sure that the show needed to go there in order to delay Oliver/Felicity - as the show has pointed out, over and over, Oliver Queen is quite good at being an obstacle in his own relationships without any outside factors, and the main obstacle between Oliver/Felicity has always been, from day one, that one of them is Oliver. I never thought more was needed. Second, the careful blocking to show that oh, no, this Oliver/Sara relationship isn't really long term or really love in turn caused problems for me - because ok, yes, from a storytelling sense, I can see that if you are trying to convince viewers that Oliver isn't really in love with Sara so that you can later convince them that he is still in love with Felicity, it works, but from a meta sense, this means that Oliver is deliberately hurting Laurel (and she was hurt, no question) to be in a relationship with someone he doesn't really love, and worse, at least in part to try to get over a woman who isn't Laurel.  

 

I've also seen some fanwanking, and I've argued myself that it might have played a part, that getting together with Sara was, in part, a fulfillment of what Moira warned Felicity about: that if Felicity told Oliver, she would lose him.  Felicity didn't completely lose him, but for a short time there she thought she would lose her place on the team.

 

Anyway, I don't think it made Oliver look particularly good there, which does fit the show's overall "Oliver Queen is often a jerk" theme, but seemed like a major character regression to me.  But what I mostly didn't like was a really cool character like Sara Lance, who had her own saga and agenda that I found intriguing, turned into a love obstacle. It's an excellent example of just why using a major character from the show's mythology, instead of a Flavor of the Week character with no connections to other characters, as a Temporary Love Rival often doesn't work: I think Sara Lance as a character deserved a lot better than that.

[Password]

but from a meta sense, this means that Oliver is deliberately hurting Laurel (and she was hurt, no question) to be in a relationship with someone he doesn't really love, and worse, at least in part to try to get over a woman who isn't Laurel.  

 

I've also seen some fanwanking, and I've argued myself that it might have played a part, that getting together with Sara was, in part, a fulfillment of what Moira warned Felicity about: that if Felicity told Oliver, she would lose him.  Felicity didn't completely lose him, but for a short time there she thought she would lose her place on the team.

 

Anyway, I don't think it made Oliver look particularly good there, which does fit the show's overall "Oliver Queen is often a jerk" theme, but seemed like a major character regression to me. 

 

That's what I thought about Oliver hurting Laurel with Sara and not actually having real feelings for her. To me it seems so compassionless for Oliver and Sara to think getting back together is such a good thing, whilst it seems a regressive thing to do. It's like they learnt nothing from their past and have decided to hurt Laurel all over again. I was doubly annoyed by Laurel apologising to Sara for Sara being a jerk. And on screen, it seemed like Felicity had nothing to do with Oliver's bonehead decision to get into a relationship with Sara. It seemed entirely a Lance family drama, played out by Laurel's drinking and drugs problem.

 

What Moira said about Felicity losing Oliver is exactly what I felt happened when he got together with Sara. For her to feel left out by super Sara made sense (although ep14 is something I try to block from my mind) because she told the fool she had abandonment issues and he basically abandoned her. Not in the physical sense, because they've never been physical, but in the emotional sense. Score for Queen Moira.

[statsgirl]

Yes, when they said they didn't have time for Felicity's backstory in s2, I was worried that it was because she was becoming less important to the show. Now I'm tending to think that it's because they wanted to put their daddy issues into s3 with Thea/Merlyn, Oliver and Diggle.

 

KC may think that Laurel is the heart of the show because she's trying to do (e.g. at CNRI) but she's become tangential to the main show.  The EPs have hopefully got the message that Team Arrow is the core of the show because they've been saying that next season will be more "intimate" which I take to mean it will be more about Oliver/Diggle/Felicity rather than like the second part of this season in which Diggle and Felicity were mostly supporting players.

 

Felicity is the heart of the show because 1) she is the only one who been against killing and wanting to give people another chance, seeing the good in them; 2) she's the one trying to get people to make up when they've been fighting (e.g. going to Diggle in s1 to get him and Oliver back together); and 3) she believes in doing what's right even though there is a cost to her (e.g. telling Oliver about Thea's paternity). She also calls people on their crap, especially Oliver.  Laurel has pulled enough dirty tricks that she doesn't get to be the team's conscience either, no matter what KC may think.

 

I could see Laurel as legal liaison for the Team but I don't see a place for her working in the new cave right now.  Roy is the muscle, Diggle is the brains and the gravitas, Felicity is the IT and conscience, and Oliver is The Leader.. 

 

 

Even so, losing someone you're that close to is usually devastating, engaged or not.

This is a good example of the problems with Laurel.  First, Tommy wouldn't have died if she had listened to Oliver, Moira or Quentin and kept out of the Glades as they told her to. Second, she wasn't in a relationship with Tommy at the time because as soon as Tommy told her that Oliver still cared for her, her eyes lit up and she went to Oliver to ask him if it was true, and then she slept with him as Tommy watched from outside in the street.  (Another reason why she's not the heart of the show because the heart should have some moral values.)   I can feel sorry for her that she's finally realized it's Tommy she loved and how hard losing him was on her but she did do her share of bringing that on herself.

[statsgirl]

 

she told the fool she had abandonment issues and he basically abandoned her. Not in the physical sense, because they've never been physical, but in the emotional sense. Score for Queen Moira.

Hee.  And yet, the EP (I think it was Kreisburg but it may have been Guggenheim) said in an interview that what Moira threatened wasn't going to happen, it was actually going to bring them closer together.  What they think is happening on screen is often not what we the audience see.

 

The problem is, of course, that Oliver is often a fool, especially when it comes to the people in his life that he cares about. He misjudged his father, he couldn't believe his mother would be involved in anything bad, he thought Isabel was helping him with QC. that Thea was better off not knowing about everything (Roy, her father, Oliver as the Arrow) even though they had already had her acting out in s1 when Moira tried to hide from her Robert's infidelities, he thought he could save Helena, and Diggle has often pointed out his blind spot with Laurel. 

 

So even though we saw Oliver as abandoning Felicity because he was so wrapped up in Slade and the Lance Family Drama, he may not have thought he was abandoning her.

 

from a meta sense, this means that Oliver is deliberately hurting Laurel (and she was hurt, no question) to be in a relationship with someone he doesn't really love, and worse, at least in part to try to get over a woman who isn't Laurel.

 

 

I don't have a problem with either the Oliver/Sara relationship of the Oliver/Felicity lead-up, providing the show doesn't do a 180 on me again.

 

First, you have to remember that Oliver told Laurel back in the s2 premier City of Heroes that even though they care about each other because of what they've gone through, friends is what they're going to be  Laurel may still have feelings for Oliver, and KC plays it that way, but I hope Oliver is done with that as a romantic relationship.  He felt a responsibility to Laurel when she showed up at Verdant drunk but he called Sara to have her handle it and told Thea to call Laurel a taxi rather than drive her home himself.  He shouldn't have gone to the family dinner at Laurel's place and he sort of knew that (because it did hurt her) but overall he's pretty clueless and Sara was asking him not to make her go alone (trying to save Sara?) and Felicity pushed him to go.

 

But he does know enough not to start things with Felicity because she's a romantic and it wouldn't be a FWB with her.  (Interestingly, SA said that the Oliver/Felicity scenes in Unthinkable were right given the arc they had had all season so  I guess it really was A Plan.)

 

On the other hand, there was Sara needing comfort after the fight with Laurel, and they'd been through a lot, and since he's not the kind of guy to be celibate if he doesn't have to be, it makes sense to be sleeping with Sara.  They've both been through a lot, together and apart, they're both damaged and looking for comfort, and they were unfinished business. The big problem I have with the relationship is that the show never explored it properly. But to Olivier's credit he never said I love you to Sara or lied to her, and to Sara's credit, when Oliver freaked when she asked if he was asking her to move in with him, she realized that he wasn't at that place and broke up with him (unlike Laurel who went apartment hunting).

 

I don't think Oliver got together with Sara to get over Felicity, I think he compartmentalized.  There is something courtly love-like about how Oliver treats Felicity (I can't remember who posted that but it feels right), whereas Sara is a companion-at-arms and someone he cares very much about but not in a romantic love way right now.

Edited May 30, 2014 by statsgirl

[Tangerine]

Regarding Green Arrow and Black Canary, I never read the comic books but, from reading fan threads, I know that they get together and break up multiple times, get married, divorce, and then separate for good.   

 

Exactly. If people are really concerned about comic book canon, they've already got it: The whole GA/BC relationship was tumultuous and involved them getting together/breaking up several times and we've already seen that play out on screen.

Edited May 30, 2014 by Tangerine

[catrox14]

I thought Sara/Oliver made sense because they both came from a really damaged place and had the same experiences.  I don't believe either one was madly in love with the other, but I think they do love each other on some level.  I think it was a relationship born of mutual loneliness, being kindred spirits in the superhero secret life way and just straight up needing some release and sexytimes for both of them.  And we saw what made it not work because IMO they were too much alike in some ways and didn't have the same viewpoints about problem solving in their superhero duties. 

 

IMO, neither Laurel nor Sara has much of a high horse to sit upon when it comes to Oliver.  Laurel played dirty pool back in high school when she already knew that Sara liked Oliver and made an end run to get with Oliver.  I have no reason to think that Sara was lying about any of that.  Laurel was also a bit delusional about what kind of relationship she actually had with Oliver.  So IMO both were shitty to each other about him.  And Oliver, well, dude was a cad.

[Password]

On a purely logical plain Oliver and Sara hooking up made sense. But we aren't purely logical. It just felt too much like a repetition of the past with Laurel bitching out Sara that led to Sara choosing to go with Oliver on the Queens Gambit. Then Laurel bitching out Sara again by not welcoming her home, which led to Sara and Oliver hooking up again. That is regressive and selfish, not just looking for comfort. If they hooked up once, or slept together sporadically, I would dislike it still, but Oliver rocking up with Sara all happy couple at the Lance family dinner set my teeth on edge. And whilst I realise Oliver can't live his life in fear of hurting Laurel's feelings, that was just insensitive. And not to mention Oliver's speech about loving her. He has a very strange way of showing it. Just because you're lonely, doesn't mean you should make choices that would no doubt hurt those you have already hurt. Both Oliver and Sara made me sick there.

Oliver was indeed a cad back in his day, and yes is still learning, but he learnt his dads bag of tricks concerning women and wasn't taking Roberts advice about things not ending well.

I accept Oliver makes bad choices when it comes to those he loves. But I can't make excuses for him there.

[quarks]

I'm trying to figure out how to put this, which means I'm probably not going to express it very well. Apologies in advance.

 

I have absolutely no problem with friends finding comfort in each other, casual sex, kindred spirits, shared experiences leading to sex, and all that. So on that level, sure, Oliver/Sara made sense and as I've said, I still can see the show ending up with the two of them - especially because they do make excellent fighting partners.

 

At the same time, the show went out of its way - a full season and a half out of its way - to show just how much their original hookup had ended up hurting themselves and their families. Had Oliver and Sara not stepped on that boat - well, the boat would still have gotten slammed by the hurricane and the sabotage, but it's very possible that Robert Queen might have survived and convinced Fyers to send him back, saving the Queens - and possibly even the entire city - a lot of grief. The Lance parents might still be together; Quentin might have avoided alcoholism. I expect that Laurel and Oliver would have broken up regardless - there just wasn't a lot there - and Oliver would have continued wasting his life. But still a lot of avoided trauma, and that's not even counting how much torture and pain Sara and Oliver went through as a result.

 

So  I guess part of me didn't want them to risk all of that again for anything else than a major love. And yet, right after the episode showed us that Sara was willing to kill herself to keep her family safe, they risked all of that again for something a lot less.  

 

But my biggest issue is that Sara and Oliver didn't actually get together for any of these above reasons - great love or comforting sex: as per the showrunners, they got together because the writers wanted to put an obstacle between Oliver and Felicity, apparently also partly so that the fakeout would surprise viewers, and, to a lesser extent, rain down more blows on Oliver and Laurel. This...is not a good reason, especially since honestly, the plot would otherwise barely have changed. The show could still have had Sara join Team Arrow, still have Felicity wonder if she could keep up with Sara given Sara's uber-competence - while making it even more clear that the issue there wasn't jealousy, but fear of getting kicked off the team - still have Sara and Oliver argue about killing versus non-killing with both Helena and Roy, still even have Oliver's take down of Laurel, Laurel's later acceptance of Sara (in fact, Laurel's acceptance/apology might have been more believable, I think), still have Laurel tell Oliver not to push people away, still have Sara go off to the League of Assassins to get help, and so on. And Laurel's whole "I've always felt drawn to you" and "I know you better than anyone else," not only would have come off better and probably have been easier for Cassidy to deliver but also provided some obfuscation for Oliver and Felicity.  For that matter, Oliver's "I love her too," to Sara, referring to Laurel, in Birds of Prey would have been enough to help hide that Oliver's feelings had changed and for that scene to surprise viewers.

 

And this ended up changing Sara from a former assassin trying to make up for her multiple crimes into a love interest/Temporary Love Rival for Oliver Queen. I think Sara's character deserved better than this.  

 

But I can see how this worked much better for other people. 

Edited May 30, 2014 by quarks

[Password]

I think I may be coming from a place where I don't much like Sara. I can appreciate her significance in fighting with Oliver and the LoA killing her and everything else that made her leave her family. But like you said, many things could've been avoided in terms of drama had their hooking up not happened.

When Sara first arrived I thought she was awesome. Like mad skills awesome, better than Oliver. But for some reason I never really paid attention to her. Perhaps it's because I have never read the comics so I don't understand BC's significance in Oliver's life. So all I really knew was the nasty past with Oliver and Laurel. But I understand why people who like her were offended at how her arc was handled. It made little sense, but like I said earlier, much of the second half of s2 made any sense.

I'm probably being near sighted about the whole thing but Oliver and Sara just put me off in s2.

Edited May 30, 2014 by ArrowLimbo

[statsgirl]

The whole GA/BC relationship was tumultuous and involved them getting together/breaking up several times and we've already seen that play out on screen.

I am really hoping that they will consider the GA/BC getting together/breaking up as Oliver/Laurel in the past because there's nothing I like less on a TV show. I'd even rather have no relationships than on again/off again.  Unfortunately, Marc Guggenheim has said that this is one of the attractions of Oliver/Laurel.  Well it is to him, anyway.

 

 

So  I guess part of me didn't want them to risk all of that again for anything else than a major love. And yet, right after the episode showed us that Sara was willing to kill herself to keep her family safe, they risked all of that again for something a lot less.

But what were they really risking?  Unlike in the past, Oliver and Laurel weren't dating.  They'd even friend-zoned each other in City of Heroes.  Neither Oliver nor Sara had responsibilities towards anyone else, they were both free and adult.  Maybe Laurel getting hurt because they were together (and at that point wasn't she dating Sebastian Blood?) but Oliver was okay with Laurel being with Tommy, if Laurel was really over Oliver, she wouldn't be hurt, other than her pride, 

 

In terms of what happened in those episodes, I do think that it made a difference to have Oliver and Sara together as a couple. Felicity would still have been upset by Sara's prowess but knowing that Sara was Oliver's SO made it that much worse, for me at least.  Having Oliver and Sara argue about killing vs non-killing Roy and Helena, while they were a couple since couples usually agree, made it more of a point when Felicity was the one to tell him to go after Slade and do what he needed to do to get Thea back, and strengthened Felicity's connection with Oliver.  It also made Sara's decision to go with Nyssa make a bit of sense since Nyssa loved her and Oliver didn't.  It made Laurel look even more delusional in her :"I know you in my bones" speech but I've always thought that Laurel only saw things from her point of view.  I think having Oliver and Sara in a relationship was like salt, the ingredients would have been the same without it but being in a relationship added an extra punch.  It also made Oliver's 'I love you' a bit more believable since I could say "ah, that's why Sara broke up with him".

.

I agree that it wasn't fair to Sara's character and I'm hoping they fix that next season or even better in a BOP spin-off.  I get the impression that they didn't know what a hit Sara/Caity Lotz would be, they were saving the emotional growth of the BC for Laurel. Now they're really in a bind.

Edited May 31, 2014 by statsgirl

[quarks]

But what were they really risking?

 

 

That something as bad, or even worse, might happen this time around.

 

Apart from any potential hurt to Laurel (and, although Oliver is over her, indications are that she isn't over Oliver - fingers crossed that will happen during the hiatus)  and others - the last time they slept together, Sara almost drowned, then was forced to help participate in medical experiments, then had to run around a crazy evil island, then was forced to be an assassin. Oliver watched his father shoot himself right in front of him, got tortured, watched his next lover die, and also ran around crazy evil island - and that's just the flashbacks we've seen so far.

 

So the question more is, given what happened last time...why risk that again?

 

But you have a good point about the Oliver/Sara relationship adding some deeper emotional nuance to their scenes. I'll work with that.

[Carrie Ann]

Yeah, I'm not sure I follow the logic that because Sara and Oliver ended up shipwrecked and all sorts of tragedy followed, getting together again would "risk all of that again." They risked hurting each other, and maybe Laurel (who was being such a shit to both of them that I don't think they needed to consider her feelings, or further enable her self-pity). But it's not a witch's curse or something, so I don't think they should assume that major tragedy will always result from their being together.

[Password]

Laurel had reason to be that way with Sara. Oliver was foolish to be talked into going to that dinner, and he was foolish to enter a relationship with Sara. For someone so intent on during s1 to rectify his relationship with Laurel, it seemed such an oversight for him to get back together with Sara, regardless of whether or not Laurel and Oliver were together because their cheating caused so much pain.

Whatever happened to blood is thicker than water when Sara decides her and Oliver are a-ok not just in front of Laurel but keeping it a secret, just like 7 years previously. The past must be taken into account, it can't be brushed off so easily as well we suffered together and understand each others pain. Sara and Oliver decided to board that boat that literally made everything in their lives go to doo doo. It's like their entire past was forgotten, from a storyline POV in favour of comfort.

I can't get into Sara doing that to her sister because it's so utterly reprehensible. Her loyalty to Laurel is not questionable but torn to bits. And yes, she saved Laurel, and decided to kill herself for her family. Only to hurt Laurel once again when it's all said and done?

There were different ways for Olicity barriers, which I still don't buy because Barry was a distraction, Sara was in the Arrowcave, everyday there for Felicity to see. If the same happened to Oliver...nope I would still feel disappointed in Sara and Oliver's choice. Really all of Oliver's choices after that were dumb.

@Carrie Ann I probably seem difficult on this subject, but only because I'm so utterly disappointed in that particular plotline.

[quarks]

Should they assume it? Probably not. But I guess I'm coming from a position where I've seen a lot of people do just that - even when the incident was totally unrelated. My mother still doesn't step into a certain restaurant chain because her mother had a heart attack in one, and after that, never left the hospital/hospice. It's not rational, but it happens.  Can I see risking it again if you're really in love with someone? Sure, absolutely. But for something that is not love on either side?  Eh. Maybe. After all, their past is as toxic as Oliver and Laurel's - just toxic in different ways.

 

Having said all this, this is yet another thing - out of so many examples - which could have been helped with a simple dialogue tweak: "Is this a good idea?"  "Maybe not, but I'd like to try anyway."  Oh well.

[BkWurm1]

I don't think Oliver got together with Sara to get over Felicity, I think he compartmentalized.

 

Yeah, I don't think Oliver turning to Sara had anything to do with Felicity unless he was taking her advice about deserving someone better than Isabel. 

 

I didn't have a problem with Oliver and Sara getting together.  It was never an epic love nor was likely to turn into an epic love but they were each other's port in the storm and that doesn't sound like much unless everything else in their life is turmoil.  When they got back together Laurel wasn't a consideration. 

 

In Sara's case, there was no relationship at that moment to worry about and as for Oliver, he and Laurel were barely even friends at that point.  At the start of the year they both said nothing could ever happen again (if only this would stay true) and at this point Oliver had admitted that Laurel was his blind spot but vowed to never again let her be.  So there's that but even more so I don't think either Sara or Oliver after the trauma they'd faced would think that something as small as Laurel's possible disapproval would be enough to make them not go after the only good thing they could see at the moment (this Sara even more than Oliver ) 

 

I don't think Sara or Oliver saw their past cheating as having anything to do with the present - at least not in that moment where they restarted a relationship.  It could be argued that they'd paid for the chance to be together a hundred times over. 

 

I can't get worked up about them getting together without it being the be all, end all because too many terrible things had happened to them for them to even think of themselves or their lives in those terms.  I just don't feel that they could think of what they were doing as reprehensible.  They both are free to be with the other.  No one dies or mortally wounded.  It's not a repeat of what happened before.

 

That sad I can understand why someone else (Laurel) wouldn't see things in such black and white terms.  Also I completely agree they were extraordinarily stupid in thinking they could be together so new into the rekindled relationship and not have Laurel figure it out.  Oliver should not have been there but between Sara asking and Felicity kicking him out as useless, Oliver made a very bad choice.  Still, it wasn't done to hurt Laurel and judged on the scale of bad things that Sara and Oliver would be ranking their mistake on, it really doesn't measure up to very much at all. 

 

I had one moment of sympathy for Laurel at her dinner when she caught the glance between Oliver and Sara but her behavior was so reprehensible that I no longer cared at all about Laurel.  No, one bad thing doesn't negate another but Laurel overreacted as badly as Sara and Oliver underreacted. 

 

The real disservice to Sara IMO wasn't the dead end relationship, but the way TPTB decided to ignore how badly Sara wanted out as an assassin.  What Sara did was incredibly heroic and tragic and it's like the show didn't even notice.  I don't understand why it couldn't have been portrayed as what it was, an unthinkable but necessary choice she made in order to stop Slade.  All the component to telling that tale were there and then they slapped on that send off. 

 

I've rewatched it and I think Quentin does show his worry and concern but tries to put a good face on it.  Maybe Sara was supposedly doing the same?  But it didn't feel like that.  It felt like she was skipping off to tour the continent like she won a prize and Laurel...give me patience...Laurel was so happy to see her go that she might as well have tossed Sara aboard and closed the gang plank after her.  At least she decided she could use an AA meeting right about then.  Maybe someone there could readjust her thinking. 

Edited May 31, 2014 by BkWurm1

[pootlus]

The dock scene makes me more and more angry every time I think about it.

 

Laurel. she's your sister. Stop looking so deliriously happy.

 

My sister and I don't always get on, but I'd give her my kidney/bone marrow without hesitation if she needed it.  Laurel can't even wipe the fucking smirk off her face that her sister is rejoining a gang of assassins.

 

If there was any chance of Laurel being turned into a remotely likeable character, it died there, on that dock - for me at least.

[quarks]

Yeah, I don't think Oliver turning to Sara had anything to do with Felicity unless he was taking her advice about deserving someone better than Isabel.

 

 

In terms of Oliver and Sara, no. In terms of the show, and more specifically, setting up the fake-out, yes. 

 

The showrunners were pretty upfront about this in interviews: in Dec/Jan they said they were setting up an obstacle for Oliver/Felicity very soon that would slow things down, and later said that they were using episode 13 to set up something in the finale.  By March 5 they were announcing that they were doing to do something with Oliver/Felicity that would really "confound and satisfy some viewers and infuriate others." So yeah, they knew where this was going, and knew that they needed both to set it up and obscure it. I don't always agree with the way the showrunners interpret their show, but I do take them at their word when they discuss their writing process.  And it even worked - I just wish it had been tweaked to work better.

[icandigit]

Laurel and Sara didn't seem close at all. So all their scenes felt forced and flat to me. Had they been closer I would have been more outraged with Sara hooking up with Oliver again.  But, I really didn't see why she wouldn't. There wasn't much of a relationship between her and Laurel to protect or preserve. She might as well go for hers. Laurel would treat her the same way regardless. Sara was probably more concerned about how Felicity was dealing with it. But, really i think the whole thing adds up to, its on the CW.

[catrox14]

 

2rom72t.gif

I think someone might have posted a version of this gif before. I just wonder if Stephen realizes he looks like this while hugging her? I mean, we all know who he wants Oliver with based on what he says and posts online. He looks like he is thinking "Ughhh nooo" during this lol. Don't worry Stephen, I think most of us feel the exact same way.

 

I thought Stephen played it very much the same as  Oliver's reaction to an uninvited hug at Verdant when she figured out he is the Arrow.  I think it was a consistent choice because IMO Oliver was totally flummoxed and wondering WTF Laurel is suddenly around and hugging him in both cases.

[Password]

His reaction just after the hug is even more interesting. Like Oliver had emotion on his face then immeidately shut it down before Laurel could see. He even looks down.

[wonderwall]

Let's compare that gif to Oliver/Felicity hugs shall we? :p

 

 

 

I may possibly be over-analyzing this wayyy too much, but the look on his face is a sort of realization that "holy shit she believes in me. Better not ef this up for wifey"

 

And then there's the one where he was really surprised by her hug:

 

 

IDK Oliver just has this stoic look when he hugs Felicity. It's like he doesn't know what to do or how to even process this form of affection she's giving him. But yeah, the face he had when laurel surprise hugged him just looked painful whereas when Felicity surprise hugs Oliver, he looks at her with affection afterwards. 

 

YAY comparing and contrasting is such fun! :p

[catrox14]

IDK Oliver just has this stoic look when he hugs Felicity. It's like he doesn't know what to do or how to even process this form of affection she's giving him. But yeah, the face he had when laurel surprise hugged him just looked painful whereas when Felicity surprise hugs Oliver, he looks at her with affection afterwards. 

 

 

To me, that makes sense because Laurel has not been in Oliver's life in a caring way for a long time and they have actually been at serious odds for most of that whereas Felicity has been an active, supportive friend and superhero business partner. Thus a hug from Felicity  would be surprising but is not loaded with 'What the hell are you hugging me for" vs Laurel's which are totally out of the blue and slightly inappropriate given the givens of their "relationship".

Edited June 2, 2014 by catrox14

[quarks]

I think Oliver looks pretty grim and stoic in all of those, to be honest.  But that's Oliver: grim and stoic.  The main differences I see: 

 

In the Oliver/Laurel hug, which shouldn't have taken him by surprise - they've hugged and touched before, and she's trying to get him not to commit suicide - he's totally stiff. His shoulders don't move, which suggests that his arms didn't move either, suggesting that he's not trying to hug her back at all. His expression moves from grim and stoic to slightly angry grim and stoic. His head stays up. When the hug ends, he looks away and towards the ground, not at her. 

 

In the first Oliver/Felicity hug, where she definitely catches him by surprise and he's like, uh, what? he looks at her afterwards to make sure she's ok.  And he leans into the hug, pulls her in a bit, and puts his head on his shoulder.

 

In the second Oliver/Felicity hug, he leans into her, puts his head on her shoulder, and pulls her in more.

 

That's kinda par for the course, though; the camera has usually filmed Oliver/Felicity closer than it has Oliver/Laurel.

Edited June 2, 2014 by quarks

[Sakura12]

Oliver does look all tense when Laurel hugs him. Even with Sara he bends down to hold her (it could also be because she's so short). With Felicity, he is all in with their hugs. 

 

I wonder since KC said that thing about not being able to separate Stephen from Oliver has anything to do with it. Stephen knows she's uncomfortable, so he's uncomfortable. He can relax around EBR and CL because they know they are acting. 

[catrox14]

 

I wonder since KC said that thing about not being able to separate Stephen from Oliver has anything to do with it. Stephen knows she's uncomfortable, so he's uncomfortable. He can relax around EBR and CL because they know they are acting.

 

It seems more likely that Amell is making specific choices in how he responds to Laurell.   He's bound to respond differently to Sara who has been his current lover and Felicity who is his business partner.

[wonderwall]

Maybe it's a mix of his disapproval for Oliver's relationship with Laurel and him being uncomfortable with KC?

Stephen rarely talks about Laurel/Oliver without prompt, and we rarely ever see him interact with KC outside of the set... SO yeah maybe it's a bit of both?

[ohjoy]

I would hope that it's simply SA's acting choices and not him picking up on continued uncomfortableness from KC. I get KC being uncomfortable jumping on and wrapping her legs around an actor she knows is married; I think she should have been prepared for that eventuality, but I get it. However, this is not a "take your pants of NOW" kind of hug; it's a "your life matters, don't end it all" kind of hug. If the energy she's giving off is still "EW this is so skeevy" in that scenario, then there are serious issues that need to be addressed.

 

That said, I think, since the shot is one where the camera is on his face only (which would have been a different take from the one in which you could see her face), this is probably SA portraying Oliver's natural reaction in the situation, given their history.

[bluebonnet]

I find all of Laurel's hugs or other intimate touches to be incredibly uncomfortable.  I realized exactly why when I was watching an episode with my sister and she was all "I've experienced those hugs before!"  I'm not a huggy person.  In fact, I pretty much hate them and think they should be outlawed.  Laurel's hugs look the exactly way mine do when I'm trying really hard to fake it.  It doesn't come naturally to me and it all ends up feeling awkward and looking painful.  I found it telling that my sister - who has never watched the showed or heard any commentary about any of the characters - picked out immediately how terrible Laurel's hugs are.  

[catrox14]

 

In the Oliver/Laurel hug, which shouldn't have taken him by surprise - they've hugged and touched before, and she's trying to get him not to commit suicide - he's totally stiff.

 

I would argue that he would be more stiff and unreceptive because he has been sleeping with her sister until recently. He and Laurel had a huge fight not that long ago and he said that he was done chasing after her trying to help her.  I don't know why he would be expecting or be expected to reciprocate a hug from Laurel at this point of their tenuous friendship.  There is a big difference between Ollie "committing suicide" because he is depressed and thinks his life has no meaning vs sacrificing himself to stop other people from dying.

[quarks]

I don't know why he would be expecting or be expected to reciprocate a hug from Laurel at this point of their tenuous friendship.

 

 

Because three episodes previously, in The Man Under the Hood, when he was still dating her sister, Laurel also hugged him, and although he didn't lean into it or look thrilled, he did put his arms up and hugged her back.  They've been hugging more or less uncomfortably since the second episode of the show.

[catrox14]

Maybe I've lost the thread of the discussion but I think we are in agreement that Oliver has not been particularly comfortable hugging Laurel. IMO, it's bound to be even more pronounced over all the episodes following The Man Under the Hood, which all take place over the course of one or two nights. I would imagine he would be even more ill at ease since Oliver was focused on Slade having  just murdered his mother, and is laying siege to the city when Laurel show up in the Lair O Arrow. 

[Sakura12]

I noticed with some actors that when they have kissing scenes they stick their butts out and it looks weird, I guess they're uncomfortable with their pelvis' touching or something. I know it's weird but I look for that now because it looks funny and I know that's probably not what they want me to pay attention to when watching what is supposed to be a passionate kissing scene. 

 

I know it's probably uncomfortable to be kissing someone that's married but it's part of the job of acting and their spouse should be aware that it's part of their job. So for me unless KC is actively trying to steal Stephen away from his wife, there should not be any problems kissing him when they are both pretending to be different people.

[wonderwall]

I'm gonna put a gif of a man not in love:

 

Nope. He's totally not in love with Felicity. This is totally the look of friendship :p

 

ALSO. How gorgeous was EBR in the finale?! 

Edited June 2, 2014 by wonderwall

[quarks]

@catrox14, we're definitely in agreement that for the most part, Oliver has not been comfortable hugging Laurel - the exceptions have been right after she's been attacked (sigh) and when she blew up the wall with the exploding arrow, and he was trying to make sure she was ok.   My only addition/observation is that, given that Laurel had hugged him while he was still dating her sister, a hug a few episodes later shouldn't have taken him by surprise.

 

Having said all this, I really think that uncomfortable hugging is the least important problem with their relationship. A much bigger issue is the "Stay! I need you to be safe!" "Why? You're risking everyone else!"  "They're my team!" "Well, I'll just ignore that and follow you then after you leave!"  In direct contrast to "Stay!" "No! "I need you to be safe!"  "I want to be unsafe!" "Oh, well, in that case, I love you, now go stab superpowered guy and by the way, wait until I give some sort of signal, k?" "K!"

 

Slightly offtopic, but it does crack me up that Felicity's wearing those huge hoop earrings during the fake-out scene and while attacking Slade, and then goes back to only slightly smaller dangly ones for the beach scene. I can see her now: "Can't do much about the head wound - hmm, would these earrings match better?"

[wonderwall]

Felicity: "I really want my head wound to pop... Maybe I should go ahead and wear the smaller earrings" :p I didn't get why no one bandaged that

[catrox14]

wonderwall, I don't even want to admit how many times I rewound that scene. I was in shock when he said "he picked the wrong woman".  I was still sort of okay after his quiet "love you". But I was done when he leans in and gazes at her. Ho-ly Crap. I burst into tears and and even after the reveal, no one can ever convince me that look was not him telling her he loves her and is in love with her. Nope. You will not take this away from me!

 

Fuck me. That is just a wonderful scene. 

Edited June 3, 2014 by catrox14

[statsgirl]

Wonderwall, yes, I can see that he doesn't care for Felicity at all in that scene, he just wants her to be kidnapped so he can save Laurel.

 

That comes out even more in the scene on the beach when she's talking about how unthinkable they would be as a couple. You can see it in the way he looks at her.

 

How much later is the beach scene supposed to be?  The wounds on both of them look pretty fresh.  (I bet the  cast was glad they finally got the change clothes though.)

[writersblock51]

That one GIF pretty much seals the deal for me in that there's no way it was a ruse.  There's definitely something between them, even in the midst of what Oliver was trying to accomplish in terms of getting the syringe to Felicity to try to neutralize Slade at some point.  He could have handed it to her without the I Love You, the lean-in, and the little smile.  We don't even know if Slade heard the ILY, either.  "He took the wrong woman" and "Oh" was enough to sell it to an eavesdropping Slade.

 

Maybe it's just my Felicity-tinted glasses when I see that scene, but I doubt it.  There have been been plenty of nay-sayers who saw the same scene and came away with a very different feeling.  Yet I see nothing BUT him looking at her adoringly.  Ditto with the silence at the beach.

 

As for the timing of the beach scene, I suspect it takes place a day or 2 after Slade was captured in Starling City.

[slayer2]

I think Oliver looks pretty grim and stoic in all of those, to be honest.  But that's Oliver: grim and stoic.  The main differences I see: 

 

In the Oliver/Laurel hug, which shouldn't have taken him by surprise - they've hugged and touched before, and she's trying to get him not to commit suicide - he's totally stiff. His shoulders don't move, which suggests that his arms didn't move either, suggesting that he's not trying to hug her back at all. His expression moves from grim and stoic to slightly angry grim and stoic. His head stays up. When the hug ends, he looks away and towards the ground, not at her. 

 

In the first Oliver/Felicity hug, where she definitely catches him by surprise and he's like, uh, what? he looks at her afterwards to make sure she's ok.  And he leans into the hug, pulls her in a bit, and puts his head on his shoulder.

 

In the second Oliver/Felicity hug, he leans into her, puts his head on her shoulder, and pulls her in more.

 

That's kinda par for the course, though; the camera has usually filmed Oliver/Felicity closer than it has Oliver/Laurel.

I agree with this, Ollie's a veritable statue. He reminds me of TW's Clark in that way. I also don't think it translates to "Amell doesn't like the actress" I recall many folks saying the same thing about Genevieve Cortese's Ruby and Jared Padalecki's Sam and then Jared married her. We have no idea what's going on behind the scenes, what I can say though in terms of real life relationships is someone asked Caity Lotz who she was closest with in the cast at the Chile Comic-Con and she said EBR and KC.

Edited June 3, 2014 by slayer2

[Sakura12]

Caity and EBR are always tweeting each other, hanging out and posting pics of each other and their dogs. At the Chile Comic Con, Caity said EBR is coming to LA to hang out with her. I don't really see her doing any of that with KC. They weren't even following each other on Twitter until someone pointed that out to them. Not that Twitter is a prerequisite for friendships, but it does show them talking to each other. So I don't know how close Caity and Katie really are. Sounds like damage control to me. People are upset about Sara being shoved out the way for Laurel so the cast has to promote Cassidy. Which is what everyone is always doing for her. They are telling us that Cassidy has an Emmy worthy scene or we're really going to love Laurel in the next episode or something, but I didn't see any of that on screen. Then outside of Arrow, KC barely talked about Arrow until the last few episodes. And I know her character wasn't doing much, but her whole "drug arc" was supposed to be something big for her acting wise. But she said nothing about it. Roy barely did anything either and kind of got shoved out the way, but Colton would happily talk about the show. 

 

For me liking the actor can help translate over to the character, even if their character is not the most interesting or exciting one. Roy is kind of annoying and Colton is not the greatest actor, but he seems so enthusiastic about the show and he seems like he has a great sense of humor. So in turn I started liking a Roy a little more.  

Edited June 3, 2014 by Sakura12