Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[statsgirl]

I would have liked it better too if he'd come to her first but we weren't allowed to know how much time had passed.  He very well might have been siting there thinking how long he'd have to wait until Felicity would even be willing to talk to him and I honestly didn't feel like he only apologized because she did....and yet it would have been very much better if he'd gone to her.  Sigh.

I'm not going to cut Ray a lot of slack here. He's the guy who pings her phone or shows up at her place in the morning because he has to talk to her Right. Now.

 

IF he really felt that he was in the wrong and wanted to apologize to her, he could have.

[Password]

Ooh maybe Ray draws the line at pinging his love interests.

...nah, the writers wanted it to be Felicity first.

[BkWurm1]

I'm not going to cut Ray a lot of slack here. He's the guy who pings her phone or shows up at her place in the morning because he has to talk to her Right. Now.

 

IF he really felt that he was in the wrong and wanted to apologize to her, he could have.

I get what you are saying but after the first kiss it took him more than a week before he felt ready to face Felicity, then he tried to talk to her, waited another day and then yeah, pinged her phone.  People don't always move at the same pace emotionally.

 

Showing up to her house that morning was about a killer idea busting out of his head and I honestly think is a separated issue since it pertains more to Ray's absentminded professor tendencies (loosing himself in his work) rather than a relationship thing.  

 

I can't judge him on not tracking her down by any means because for one, we don't want him to do that, and two, we don't know how quickly Felicity rushed over to see him.  I really would have liked more info so I could judge him.  I am still judging him on not specifically addressing their issues rather than a sweeping, "now that I think about it, I guess I do trust you".  

 

If I had been in Felicity's place I probably would have let him come to me even if I was willing to forgive and forget right away but would Felicity? Again, people move at different paces and that doesn't make them wrong, just different.

 

There were a few too many unknowns in that final scene for me to easily accept it or easily dismiss it completely.  The most I can say is I needed more from both of them before I would have been satisfied.     

Edited March 31, 2015 by BkWurm1

[tv echo]

Yeah, I've seen so many complaints that the relationship just doesn't work as a romance, and it's like...how do you even know? They haven't been IN a romantic relationship. The problem isn't putting them together, it's keeping them apart. I hope they just put them together next season and let the relationship live out however long it does, because IMO they've gone too far in to make it a will they/won't they kind of thing at this point. Oliver has already told her he flat-out loves her. He tied the return of his humanity to meeting her. There's only so much more mileage they can get out of keeping them apart (and by that I mean no mileage, because we're not even to the end of them BEING apart and it's already tiresome).

It irks me when people (like reviewers) say that it was a mistake for the show to turn Oliver & Felicity's relationship romantic and that they should just stay flirty friends, especially when they refer to it as a toxic relationship.  No, a toxic relationship is when two people are a couple with the guy constantly cheating on the side with other women (like his girlfriend's sister) and the gal turning a blind eye while fantasizing about marriage.

 

As the first two seasons and the season 2.5 comics show, Oliver and Felicity have a trusting, respectful, mutually supportive and, most significantly, honest relationship.  If not for the contrived reasons needed for the EPs' season 3 plot goals, they could have a great romantic relationship.  Instead, we have artificial separations, an unbelievable new romance with Ray (imo), and OOC writing - all leading to unwatchable drama.

 

There's really no reason for these two people not to be together.  However, if the EPs do put them together, I dread that as well because then they'll just come up with artificial reasons to separate them.  Alternatively, I wouldn't be surprised at this point if they never put Oliver and Felicity together romantically (justifying it by saying, 'see, we tried to make them romantic in season 3 and it just proved toxic').

Edited March 31, 2015 by tv echo

[Sunshine]

On my screen, the triangle is Arrow/Oliver/Felicity.  Oliver has been choosing Arrow but Felicity hasn't actually thrown in the towel yet.  For her it's never been shown to be a real choice between Oliver & Ray.  Ray was the consolation prize because of Oliver's choice.  I think she made it clear even after sleeping with Ray that if Oliver would only toss his hat in the ring she'd choose him.   

 

I don't think anything about Oliver & Felicity's relationship has been shown to be toxic.  I do think because their relationship angst has been given emphasis that it's easy for the reviewers and others to blame it for what to me has been a pretty dull, depressing season.  Seasons 1 & 2 were much more action packed so S3 is a little slow if you came for the action. 

 

I don't think Ray & Felicity were ever intended to be about Felicity no matter what the EPs say.  It was to showcase ATOM and provide Oliver with some growth.  Anybody else notice that in the same episode that Felicity finally "chose" Ray that the suit became functional? It makes me wonder if the suit had been functional sooner would they have written this part of the season differently. (MG said he was always asking if the suit was ready yet.) Oliver's growth is due to Ray being the ATOM not Ray.  Ray and Oliver found out about each other immediately.  Felicity wasn't even shown trying to keep her 2 lives apart.  She was simply running back and forth between whichever storyline as necessary.

[BkWurm1]

Oliver has been choosing the Arrow but Felicity isn't against the Arrow, she just wants to be chosen by Oliver as well. If the problem is a triangle between Oliver, Arrow, and Felicity, it seems to me the solution is a ménage a trios.

 

 

 

Edited for clarification on what Felicity wants from whom. 

Edited April 1, 2015 by BkWurm1

[wonderwall]

But that's the thing, it's not about who Felicity would choose to be with, it's more about who Oliver chooses. Felicity because he's just the consolation prize. Imagine if  Oliver got his head out of his ass and started embracing both sides of his life? There would be no choice to make for Felicity :)

[BkWurm1]

Just to be dead clear, the ménage I was referring to is between Oliver, Felicity and the Arrow.

Edited March 31, 2015 by BkWurm1

[wonderwall]

Just to be dead clear, the ménage I was referring to is between Oliver, Felicity and the Arrow.

LOL no I got that :) Idk why I just misread your first sentence! I thought you meant that because Felicity wants to be chosen herself, she chose Ray? Which means that the love triangle was actually Ray/Felicity/Oliver but it's really not a love triangle between them :)

[BkWurm1]

LOL no I got that :) Idk why I just misread your first sentence! I thought you meant that because Felicity wants to be chosen herself, she chose Ray? Which means that the love triangle was actually Ray/Felicity/Oliver but it's really not a love triangle between them :)

Oops, I should have been more clear. No, she's fine that Oliver chooses the Arrow, she just wants Oliver to also choose her and right now Oliver is in a monogamous relationship with his hangups. 

[statsgirl]

Well, his hangups do take up a lot of time.  I don't think there's room for Felicity in there, between the hangups and the making decisions for other people like Thea and Diggle.

[wonderwall]

I feel like she needs to talk about how she feels about all this, because she's a mess right now.

 

You know as exhausting as Felicity crying is, you sort of bring up a good point. Is the reason why Felicity cries so much because she literally has no one to talk to this season? I mean, her and Ray don't seem to talk about important things, Diggle has his own thing going on, Oliver is... yep, and she and Roy aren't all that close for her to open up. Maybe she cries a lot because it's all just bottled in there. I sort of get it. Because before I could imagine she'd be open to talk to Diggle or Oliver, but now...? Yikes. I feel really bad for Felicity :/

Edited April 1, 2015 by wonderwall

[steeledwithakiss]

You know as exhausting as Felicity crying is, you sort of bring up a good point. Is the reason why Felicity cries so much because she literally has no one to talk to this season? I mean, her and Ray don't seem to talk about important things, Diggle has his own thing going on, Oliver is... yep, and she and Roy aren't all that close for her to open up. Maybe she cries a lot because it's all just bottled in there. I sort of get it. Because before I could imagine she'd be open to talk to Diggle or Oliver, but now...? Yikes. I feel really bad for Felicity :/

I can't picture her talking freely to anyone right now, because : Diggle seems to be Team Oliver, and Roy is not that deep, Oliver is the reason she feels like that, Ray she

has to fake being over Oliver to be with him, her and Laurel aren't that close, her mother doesn't know Oliver is the Arrow. Seriously the only person I see her really confiding in and being able to give her advice is Barry.

[statsgirl]

I think she could talk to Roy, they had some nice moments in "Sara" and "Guilty".  But Roy seems to be either with Thea or backstage at the lair these days.

 

She really needs a trip to Central City, without Ray, so she can talk to Caitlin. Barry is screwing up enough these days with Iris and Linda that I don't trust his advice.

[quarks]

I wanted to expand on a couple of non-spoilery statements made over on the spoilers thread, about Ray making Felicity a potentially worse person, and also, this:

 

 

Third, I have not yet seen any reason on screen for Felicity to break up with Ray.  I would count him electrocuting Roy as a reason, but since the EPs have said they screwed up by not addressing that - I think Roy was just suppose to pop up a-ok.

 

 

I have: the last two episodes have stated, in script, that Felicity still has feelings for Oliver - strong feelings. She told him that yes, they weren't together, but "that was your choice."  She checked him out at the wedding, and looked sad and wistful after he told her he just wanted her to be happy. She admitted to Ray that yes, she had feelings for Oliver.  That alone is a reason to break up with someone, unless you're planning an open relationship or a threesome.

 

Then there's Ray himself: I'd say episodes 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, and 17 have given plenty of reasons for Felicity to break up with Ray. In the first episode, he pinged her phone and tracked her to a hospital - even apart from the pinging, it's a safe bet that people in hospitals aren't there for fun, but for medical reasons involving themselves or their friends. In the second episode, he purchased her company to force her to work for him. In the fifth episode, he showed up at her apartment unasked and uninvited.  In the third episode, he failed to disclose why he had hired and what he was using the Applied Sciences information for; in the 7th episode, he failed to tell her why he wanted the dwarf star stuff. I link those two because Ray later claimed that he'd always been open and honest with Felicity; in at least four episodes, he wasn't. In the 9th episode, Ray pinged her phone again, this time not for work purposes, but to discuss a kiss after she'd said she didn't want to talk about it.  In the 11th episode, Ray hit on her one week after she said she was mourning the loss of someone who was more than a friend.

 

In the last episode alone, he didn't trust her judgement about Oliver; he didn't tell her that the suit they were working on together worked; he called a press conference about Oliver without telling her about it; he set up an 800 number that directed calls to her, not him, even though it was addressing his concern, and didn't clear this with her; he hunted down her friends, which had the potential to put her in jail; and he electrocuted Roy. 

 

The only episode where Ray didn't do anything objectionable at all was episode 16, "The Offer," the one that showed Oliver making Felicity smile and vice versa.

 

And to be fair, on her side, she hasn't shown a lot of trust either - she wasn't exactly open with him about why she was upset in episodes 5, 10, and 11; she didn't tell him that she was working with a vigilante group, even after they started sleeping together; she hasn't told him (yet) that she's aware of metahumans, which given the suit, is a biggie.  (It's not clear how much of this is getting covered by the Starling City news media; Felicity seems to be tracking it through Iris' blog, but as far as we can tell, Iris hasn't really been reporting much on metahumans since getting a job as a reporter, so it's not clear how much Ray could find out without Felicity.)  This is not a relationship based on trust, is what I'm saying. That's a big problem.

 

But Ray aside, what it really comes down to is, what makes Felicity happier?  And here, I realized something interesting:

 

During the first season, after the first two episodes, Arrow went out of its way to show that Oliver and Laurel weren't just bad for each other: terrible things happened to other people, and each other, whenever they did start to get closer. I noted this in my specific episode discussions, but it got considerably more blatant: between the characters themselves (Helena and Tommy excepted, and even those two, to an extent) continually reminding us in every episode about their hellish backstory, and Oliver and Laurel making bad decisions whenever they started to work together, the show was not exactly subtle with "THESE TWO TOGETHER TOTALLY SUCK."

 

This season, we have the exact opposite happening. Oliver and Felicity start out the season together. When they are together, everything is great - the sets are bathed in light, criminals are going down, Quentin, Oliver and Laurel are all on good terms, Sara is alive, people are praising Arrow on the news, and apparently, the DA has not yet taken off on his or her now months long vacation. (Which actually may not be a good thing. I completely approve of this DA's decision to stay far away from this show, given the terrible things that happen to city officials and specifically DAs and ADAs on this show.) And while Felicity initially misses what Ray's up to, she gets an immediate revenge.

 

Then what happens?  Oliver breaks up with Felicity.  Suddenly, the sets go dark.  Sara dies. And over the next few episodes, we see Oliver making a series of ever more inexplicable, terrible decisions. Dueling Ra's Al Ghul - all other things aside - leaves the city vulnerable to Brick. The guy that wants to protect his sister ends up letting the guy that brainwashed that sister sleep on his sister's couch (bad move, Oliver.) He loses Quentin's support. He's back to fighting with Laurel.

 

But the thing is, this also applies to Felicity.  Last season, Felicity was the woman who instinctively distrusted Isabel and figured out that Moira was hiding something - and what. This season, Felicity was unable to tell that Ray was building a secret robot suit even though she was working directly with him and even provided him with some of the applied sciences info and knew that he wanted some dwarf star thing; she had to ask him for clarification. 

 

And of course, in direct contrast to the past two seasons, Felicity has spent this season crying a lot. She's miserable without him.  And, for the first time on the show, she's actually been mean and said a few things that crossed a line to both Ray and Oliver. 

 

Which is to say, this entire season is focused on showing that Felicity and Oliver are not better apart.

 

While I'm at it, I wanted to discuss two other minor points on this thread. The first is whether or not Ray or Oliver knows more about fidelity, and whether Ray or Oliver is better at carrying things through.

 

With the first - well, pre-island Oliver was a cheating jerk. We know of at least two, more probably ten women that he cheated on Laurel with. That sucked. If we count Oliver turning towards Shado after staring at Laurel's picture on the island, that's three.

 

(I'm not sure if Shado actually counts, since in my head taking your girlfriend's sister on a cruise to China counts as a breakup, but since Oliver kept saying Laurel would never know, maybe in his head it wasn't a breakup.  However, let's at least agree that it wasn't exactly staying faithful to Laurel while he was on the island.)

 

So yeah, pre-island Oliver sucked in that regard. But we've never seen post-island Oliver cheat on anyone. Make a lot of questionable decisions about women and seriously suck at relationships, yes, but cheat, no. So he's improved a bit there. 

 

Meanwhile:

 

Ray's fiancee died last May, the same night that Oliver told Felicity "I love you" for the first time. Since then, Ray kissed another woman in November (about six months later) and slept with another woman in February, about nine months after that. There's nothing wrong with this at all - in fact, it's healthy - but it does not exactly suggest that Ray has been faithful to his dead fiancee's marriage; he moved on from that in less than a year. Meanwhile, Oliver, since that declaration, has barely looked at another woman, even in the flashbacks. So holding Ray up as some sort of exemplar of fidelity versus Oliver really doesn't seem to work this season - especially since we have no idea what Ray was like with or before Anna.  To be fair, Ray honestly doesn't strike me as the playboy type, and there's no indication to suggest that he did cheat on anyone, but I just don't think comparing current Ray to pre-island Oliver is a fair approach.

 

On a related note - yeah, pre-island Oliver dropped out of four colleges and didn't stick to anything. Pre-island Oliver was, to be kind, a complete loser.  (I still don't know why Laurel was interested in him. She's way better than he was.) Post-island Oliver, though, does: in the first season, he did not stop investigating or trying to stop the Undertaking even after finding out his mother was involved. He risked his life to stop it.  In the second season, Oliver focused on stopping Slade, with Felicity and Sara more than once having to tell him to take a break, and Oliver not always listening. He was willing to give up his life to stop Slade (though, to be fair, some of that seems to have been because his mother's murder sent him spiraling into a deep depression), and he was determined enough that he was willing to risk the life of someone who was at the very least a close, trusted friend - whether or not you believe the "I love you."  And it worked; Slade was in jail. This season opened with showing us that Oliver was continuing to work, unpaid, to bring criminals in, and was ok with the loss of his company in part because it would allow him to focus on his main goal - crime fighting.  Later, we saw that Oliver saw things through to the extent that he was willing to climb up a mountain bare handed and fight a sword duel in the snow just to save his sister.  We then saw that he was so intent on his "Save Malcolm" plan (no matter what else anyone, including me, thinks about this) that he was willing to take a five minute plane ride to Nanda Parbat (cough), upset his friend and partner to the point of losing her (temporarily), and fight a large group of well trained assassins. 

 

Meanwhile, we saw, on the show, Ray with his three PhDs temporarily abandon Palmer Technologies to focus on the robot suit to the point where the stock price was in some jeopardy - somewhat similar to what Oliver did last season (after initially getting QC stock prices back up) after he found out about Slade.  Which is to say, I don't think we've seen anything that suggests 3rd season Ray is any better or worse at seeing projects through than post-island Oliver is. Pre-island Oliver, sure - but the entire point of this show is to show how much Oliver has changed from that point.

 

Meanwhile, although Ray has commented on Felicity's crying (like everyone), and, to be fair, offered her a much better job and one closer to her skill set than the one Oliver did, which did cheer her up and make her happy, the people who have actually given her emotional support are Barry, Diggle, Caitlin, Laurel (surprisingly enough), and, well, Oliver, especially back in episode 5, but also in episode 9 (where he was trying to reassure her before taking off) and sort of episode 12 (where his first act in the Arrow Cave was to hug her and assure her that he was ok.), and in this last episode where, sigh, Oliver was the one to help fix things between Ray and Felicity because he wants her to be happy. Ray listened to Felicity say that she was upset about the loss of someone more than a friend; he not only didn't say much in response, but he hit on her in the very next episode.  At this point, Malcolm, of all people, has been more understanding of Felicity's grief than Ray has, and when you reach that level, there's a problem.

 

So on paper - well, Ray is willing to go out with Felicity, and Oliver isn't, which is huge - and the only good reason I can think of for Felicity to stay with Ray at this point.  At least this way she's getting laid. But otherwise, I don't think the show has given us much reason to think that Felicity is going to be better off with Ray, or that Ray is the better person, even with the money, the PhDs and the supersuit.

 

None of this is to say that Felicity and Oliver getting together will or even could solve all of these problems - it's pretty obvious that both of them have huge commitment issues, and Oliver said in the first season that those commitment issues pre-dated the island, which seems fair enough. Oliver also seems to have a pretty high level of self-loathing. So problems will continue if/when those two crazy kids get together - but I think there's at least a level of trust between them that will help.

[BkWurm1]

I think she could talk to Roy, they had some nice moments in "Sara" and "Guilty".  But Roy seems to be either with Thea or backstage at the lair these days.

 

She really needs a trip to Central City, without Ray, so she can talk to Caitlin. Barry is screwing up enough these days with Iris and Linda that I don't trust his advice.

I think Roy would listen and even give her a hug if she really, really needed it, but I don't think he'd have anything comforting to say.  And I think it could put him in an uncomfortable position.  Look how at odds he and Oliver were about Thea.  If he got stuck in the middle, I think it would compromise his working relationship with Oliver. 

 

Caitlin would be a perfect person to talk to what with her Ronnie issues this year but I guess female friendship isn't crossover worthy.  

Edited April 1, 2015 by BkWurm1

[AyChihuahua]

Wow, quarks.  Perfect.

[Angel12d]

Quarks, not gonna lie, I kinda want to kiss you for that post. BRAVO. 

[rainydawn]

The way things have been going on, and with Ray & Felicity not breaking up in 3.18, I hope we're not getting Oliver/Felicity together at the end of the season. Not only I don't want to miss important moments (S2-S3 break was enought for that) but it's too late IMO. It will be rushed and too soon when I few episodes ago she was with someone else. I would like for Felicity to have some alone time.

[wonderwall]

The way things have been going on, and with Ray & Felicity not breaking up in 3.18, I hope we're not getting Oliver/Felicity together at the end of the season. Not only I don't want to miss important moments (S2-S3 break was enought for that) but it's too late IMO. It will be rushed and too soon when I few episodes ago she was with someone else. I would like for Felicity to have some alone time.

I feel like by the end of this season both of them will know where each other stand with regards to how they feel about one another. BUT I think circumstances will keep them apart (

Oliver being Ra's' heir

)

[AnalyzeAndCritique]

Quarks, 

You probably spent more time thinking about Olicity while composing the above masterpiece than the writers have all season. I believe they see the amazing chemistry and it translates to $ signs. I sinceriously doubt they have a plan. They just need them apart. Bravo for unwinding the jumbled mess and giving us twinkle lights for mood lighting for when the next Olicity kiss does happen.

[statsgirl]

None of this is to say that Felicity and Oliver getting together will or even could solve all of these problems - it's pretty obvious that both of them have huge commitment issues,

I agree about Oliver's commitment issues. But Felicity has never actually been given an opportunity to commit to the guy she wants, unless you're thinking of her time with Coop.  She's been in love with Oliver at least since 2x23 and she was willing to commit to him at the start of 3x01 but he shut that down fast.  With Ray, it's less of unable-to-commit issue than it is that he's not the guy she wants.  It's not a committeemen issue if it's the wrong guy and you just settling.

 

Good point that Malcolm knows more about Felicity's grief than Ray does.

 

I was okay with Ray as an interim relationship for Felicity until 317, when he didn't trust her and lied to her saying that he'd been open with her all along when he never was. I was okay with him not telling her his secrets back then but as soon as they got into a relationship, he should have been honest with her.  His behaviour has been a deal-breaker for me.

 

And then, the "I love you"  in 3x18 came way too fast.  They haven't been together long enough and two months ago he was yelling at her for invoking Anna's name.  (Not to mention, he's keeping her from helping Team Arrow.)

[kismet]

Gotta catch up on the thread, but just wanted to say... I think Roy's sacrifice will be a turning point in Oliver Queen realizing that he is worthy of love and loyalty. Its the first time in a long while that somebody has done something purely out of love for Oliver that he doesn't have to necessarily feel responsible for. All the other loved ones that have sacrificed for him, have all been linked to something Oliver did thereby triggering his guilt response. This sacrifice was not connected to something he could feel guilty for. But knowing OQ, he will probably find a way to make it his fault.

[AyChihuahua]

Like Barry said, he can inspire people.  Not as the Arrow...that guy's a douche.  But as Oliver Queen.

 

I really, really love Barry, and I love Oliver and Barry.  

[nksarmi]

Like Barry said, he can inspire people.  Not as the Arrow...that guy's a douche.  But as Oliver Queen.

 

I really, really love Barry, and I love Oliver and Barry.  

And while it feels like forever ago - that line was said THIS season.  I so hope they follow through with it and we get Oliver Queen in season four - in my opinion, he has been sorely missed this year.

[BunsenBurner]

deleted wrong thread!

Edited April 2, 2015 by BunsenBurner

[TanyaKay]

I wanted to expand on a couple of non-spoilery statements made over on the spoilers thread, about Ray making Felicity a potentially worse person, and also, this:

 

 

I have: the last two episodes have stated, in script, that Felicity still has feelings for Oliver - strong feelings. She told him that yes, they weren't together, but "that was your choice."  She checked him out at the wedding, and looked sad and wistful after he told her he just wanted her to be happy. She admitted to Ray that yes, she had feelings for Oliver.  That alone is a reason to break up with someone, unless you're planning an open relationship or a threesome.

 

Then there's Ray himself: I'd say episodes 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, and 17 have given plenty of reasons for Felicity to break up with Ray. In the first episode, he pinged her phone and tracked her to a hospital - even apart from the pinging, it's a safe bet that people in hospitals aren't there for fun, but for medical reasons involving themselves or their friends. In the second episode, he purchased her company to force her to work for him. In the fifth episode, he showed up at her apartment unasked and uninvited.  In the third episode, he failed to disclose why he had hired and what he was using the Applied Sciences information for; in the 7th episode, he failed to tell her why he wanted the dwarf star stuff. I link those two because Ray later claimed that he'd always been open and honest with Felicity; in at least four episodes, he wasn't. In the 9th episode, Ray pinged her phone again, this time not for work purposes, but to discuss a kiss after she'd said she didn't want to talk about it.  In the 11th episode, Ray hit on her one week after she said she was mourning the loss of someone who was more than a friend.

 

In the last episode alone, he didn't trust her judgement about Oliver; he didn't tell her that the suit they were working on together worked; he called a press conference about Oliver without telling her about it; he set up an 800 number that directed calls to her, not him, even though it was addressing his concern, and didn't clear this with her; he hunted down her friends, which had the potential to put her in jail; and he electrocuted Roy. 

 

The only episode where Ray didn't do anything objectionable at all was episode 16, "The Offer," the one that showed Oliver making Felicity smile and vice versa.

 

And to be fair, on her side, she hasn't shown a lot of trust either - she wasn't exactly open with him about why she was upset in episodes 5, 10, and 11; she didn't tell him that she was working with a vigilante group, even after they started sleeping together; she hasn't told him (yet) that she's aware of metahumans, which given the suit, is a biggie.  (It's not clear how much of this is getting covered by the Starling City news media; Felicity seems to be tracking it through Iris' blog, but as far as we can tell, Iris hasn't really been reporting much on metahumans since getting a job as a reporter, so it's not clear how much Ray could find out without Felicity.)  This is not a relationship based on trust, is what I'm saying. That's a big problem.

 

But Ray aside, what it really comes down to is, what makes Felicity happier?  And here, I realized something interesting:

 

During the first season, after the first two episodes, Arrow went out of its way to show that Oliver and Laurel weren't just bad for each other: terrible things happened to other people, and each other, whenever they did start to get closer. I noted this in my specific episode discussions, but it got considerably more blatant: between the characters themselves (Helena and Tommy excepted, and even those two, to an extent) continually reminding us in every episode about their hellish backstory, and Oliver and Laurel making bad decisions whenever they started to work together, the show was not exactly subtle with "THESE TWO TOGETHER TOTALLY SUCK."

 

This season, we have the exact opposite happening. Oliver and Felicity start out the season together. When they are together, everything is great - the sets are bathed in light, criminals are going down, Quentin, Oliver and Laurel are all on good terms, Sara is alive, people are praising Arrow on the news, and apparently, the DA has not yet taken off on his or her now months long vacation. (Which actually may not be a good thing. I completely approve of this DA's decision to stay far away from this show, given the terrible things that happen to city officials and specifically DAs and ADAs on this show.) And while Felicity initially misses what Ray's up to, she gets an immediate revenge.

 

Then what happens?  Oliver breaks up with Felicity.  Suddenly, the sets go dark.  Sara dies. And over the next few episodes, we see Oliver making a series of ever more inexplicable, terrible decisions. Dueling Ra's Al Ghul - all other things aside - leaves the city vulnerable to Brick. The guy that wants to protect his sister ends up letting the guy that brainwashed that sister sleep on his sister's couch (bad move, Oliver.) He loses Quentin's support. He's back to fighting with Laurel.

 

But the thing is, this also applies to Felicity.  Last season, Felicity was the woman who instinctively distrusted Isabel and figured out that Moira was hiding something - and what. This season, Felicity was unable to tell that Ray was building a secret robot suit even though she was working directly with him and even provided him with some of the applied sciences info and knew that he wanted some dwarf star thing; she had to ask him for clarification. 

 

And of course, in direct contrast to the past two seasons, Felicity has spent this season crying a lot. She's miserable without him.  And, for the first time on the show, she's actually been mean and said a few things that crossed a line to both Ray and Oliver. 

 

Which is to say, this entire season is focused on showing that Felicity and Oliver are not better apart.

 

While I'm at it, I wanted to discuss two other minor points on this thread. The first is whether or not Ray or Oliver knows more about fidelity, and whether Ray or Oliver is better at carrying things through.

 

With the first - well, pre-island Oliver was a cheating jerk. We know of at least two, more probably ten women that he cheated on Laurel with. That sucked. If we count Oliver turning towards Shado after staring at Laurel's picture on the island, that's three.

 

(I'm not sure if Shado actually counts, since in my head taking your girlfriend's sister on a cruise to China counts as a breakup, but since Oliver kept saying Laurel would never know, maybe in his head it wasn't a breakup.  However, let's at least agree that it wasn't exactly staying faithful to Laurel while he was on the island.)

 

So yeah, pre-island Oliver sucked in that regard. But we've never seen post-island Oliver cheat on anyone. Make a lot of questionable decisions about women and seriously suck at relationships, yes, but cheat, no. So he's improved a bit there. 

 

Meanwhile:

 

Ray's fiancee died last May, the same night that Oliver told Felicity "I love you" for the first time. Since then, Ray kissed another woman in November (about six months later) and slept with another woman in February, about nine months after that. There's nothing wrong with this at all - in fact, it's healthy - but it does not exactly suggest that Ray has been faithful to his dead fiancee's marriage; he moved on from that in less than a year. Meanwhile, Oliver, since that declaration, has barely looked at another woman, even in the flashbacks. So holding Ray up as some sort of exemplar of fidelity versus Oliver really doesn't seem to work this season - especially since we have no idea what Ray was like with or before Anna.  To be fair, Ray honestly doesn't strike me as the playboy type, and there's no indication to suggest that he did cheat on anyone, but I just don't think comparing current Ray to pre-island Oliver is a fair approach.

 

On a related note - yeah, pre-island Oliver dropped out of four colleges and didn't stick to anything. Pre-island Oliver was, to be kind, a complete loser.  (I still don't know why Laurel was interested in him. She's way better than he was.) Post-island Oliver, though, does: in the first season, he did not stop investigating or trying to stop the Undertaking even after finding out his mother was involved. He risked his life to stop it.  In the second season, Oliver focused on stopping Slade, with Felicity and Sara more than once having to tell him to take a break, and Oliver not always listening. He was willing to give up his life to stop Slade (though, to be fair, some of that seems to have been because his mother's murder sent him spiraling into a deep depression), and he was determined enough that he was willing to risk the life of someone who was at the very least a close, trusted friend - whether or not you believe the "I love you."  And it worked; Slade was in jail. This season opened with showing us that Oliver was continuing to work, unpaid, to bring criminals in, and was ok with the loss of his company in part because it would allow him to focus on his main goal - crime fighting.  Later, we saw that Oliver saw things through to the extent that he was willing to climb up a mountain bare handed and fight a sword duel in the snow just to save his sister.  We then saw that he was so intent on his "Save Malcolm" plan (no matter what else anyone, including me, thinks about this) that he was willing to take a five minute plane ride to Nanda Parbat (cough), upset his friend and partner to the point of losing her (temporarily), and fight a large group of well trained assassins. 

 

Meanwhile, we saw, on the show, Ray with his three PhDs temporarily abandon Palmer Technologies to focus on the robot suit to the point where the stock price was in some jeopardy - somewhat similar to what Oliver did last season (after initially getting QC stock prices back up) after he found out about Slade.  Which is to say, I don't think we've seen anything that suggests 3rd season Ray is any better or worse at seeing projects through than post-island Oliver is. Pre-island Oliver, sure - but the entire point of this show is to show how much Oliver has changed from that point.

 

Meanwhile, although Ray has commented on Felicity's crying (like everyone), and, to be fair, offered her a much better job and one closer to her skill set than the one Oliver did, which did cheer her up and make her happy, the people who have actually given her emotional support are Barry, Diggle, Caitlin, Laurel (surprisingly enough), and, well, Oliver, especially back in episode 5, but also in episode 9 (where he was trying to reassure her before taking off) and sort of episode 12 (where his first act in the Arrow Cave was to hug her and assure her that he was ok.), and in this last episode where, sigh, Oliver was the one to help fix things between Ray and Felicity because he wants her to be happy. Ray listened to Felicity say that she was upset about the loss of someone more than a friend; he not only didn't say much in response, but he hit on her in the very next episode.  At this point, Malcolm, of all people, has been more understanding of Felicity's grief than Ray has, and when you reach that level, there's a problem.

 

So on paper - well, Ray is willing to go out with Felicity, and Oliver isn't, which is huge - and the only good reason I can think of for Felicity to stay with Ray at this point.  At least this way she's getting laid. But otherwise, I don't think the show has given us much reason to think that Felicity is going to be better off with Ray, or that Ray is the better person, even with the money, the PhDs and the supersuit.

 

None of this is to say that Felicity and Oliver getting together will or even could solve all of these problems - it's pretty obvious that both of them have huge commitment issues, and Oliver said in the first season that those commitment issues pre-dated the island, which seems fair enough. Oliver also seems to have a pretty high level of self-loathing. So problems will continue if/when those two crazy kids get together - but I think there's at least a level of trust between them that will help.

 

I literally want to marry this whole post.

[BkWurm1]

Gotta catch up on the thread, but just wanted to say... I think Roy's sacrifice will be a turning point in Oliver Queen realizing that he is worthy of love and loyalty. Its the first time in a long while that somebody has done something purely out of love for Oliver that he doesn't have to necessarily feel responsible for. All the other loved ones that have sacrificed for him, have all been linked to something Oliver did thereby triggering his guilt response. This sacrifice was not connected to something he could feel guilty for. But knowing OQ, he will probably find a way to make it his fault.

Roy killed that guy while on his mirikuru rampage.  Roy told Thea he feels like he should be punished and cue Oliver walking in.  He probably already put two and two together and blames himself 'cause Slade was trying to make him pay. 

[Trini]

I hate when other characters tell a character how said character feels about another character. (This happens on TV way too much!) If Felicity loves anyone, I'm going to need to hear the words from her mouth.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Trini

[statsgirl]

I think some of the worst soap opera is third parties repeatedly telling characters what they feel rather than the characters themselves saying it. I was hoping that Felicity would finally have someone to talk to in Public Enemy, but no, we get Donna telling her what she really feels,and Felicity looking 'deer in the head lights.'

 

And on that topic, from the Felicity thread:

 

Im not saying they have reached BFF stage or anything, I just see that there it is a growing friendship. Whatever happened in the first 2 seasons, things have changed. Laurel and Felicity are better acquainted this season and they are now teammates. I don't know about Felicity airing her love life to Laurel, but I really dont see her talking to Diggle or Roy about that either (Roy/Felicity is also fairly new and underdeveloped) I would think she would be more likely to talk to another woman about that, ( yeah there was a little talk with Donna tonight). Her relationship with Caitlin seems way too professional to me, I doubt they would talk about boys (yet). Since this involves Oliver, there could be  a tiny chance of a talk with Laurel, maybe not.  Anyway her talk with Donna might be all she will get and regardless I think its something Felicity will have to figure out on her own, and Imo the best people she would need to talk to about this would be Ray/Oliver.

I don't think she should talk to Ray or Oliver until she's got it all figured out for herself.  It's not a question of adapting her existing relationship with a man, it's decision what and who she wants (Oliver) or whether she should settle for what she can get. Oliver has made his position very clear so there's no sense in talking to him any more.  Ray has been a jerk to her and if she decides that it's Ray she wants, she's going to have to talk to him about that but right now, she's not sure she even wants him.

 

In terms of who else to talk to, it has to be someone she can trust.  Even though she's now working with Laurel, I don't think they're at the stage where Felicity can trust Laurel with her deeper feelings.  Laurel is too unstable and there's still the two years of bad history between them.

 

She trusts Diggle and if he weren't all Team Oliver this season, I could see her talking to him because they had that kind of friendship last season.  Her friendship with Roy is relatively new but they have talked about responsibility and sorrow and guilt, things she's never got near with Laurel.

 

She has talked about emotional things with Caitlin before, so I still think she's the best person for Felicity to talk to.  Thea would be compromised as Oliver's sister, even if she's never exchanged two words with Felicity other than to take her drink order.

Edited April 3, 2015 by statsgirl

[Password]

I was definitely expecting more from the Donna-Felicity interaction. I really thought this could allow us into her brain, but then she thinks Ray is a prince from Disney so...then again maybe we should actually study what Disney princes are like. Hmmm.

I'm quite confused by this "choice" Felicity has with her two men. Oliver took himself off the table before it was even set, and Ray...well there's only so much rejection a guy can take before he goes "I know I'm not the only one". Donna wants Felicity to choose but choosing Oliver would mean...what exactly? She fights for him? She locks him in a room with her until they have it out? Or is it just that she stops stringing Ray along by a firm "no".

Once again Felicity said "Oliver is unavailable" instead of no no I want Ray. Felicity you'll make me feel sorry for the guy and that seems fairly impossible. At this point I just want her far away from Palmer and making a decision to stay with herself for now until she's in a better place. I don't even want to know the kind of tizzy Oliver would put her in if he said he wants another chance. I really think she'd either grab it with both hands, have a break down or tell him it's too late (which seems impossible given the last 3 episodes).

Edited April 2, 2015 by Password

[MostlyC]

Due to the sensitive and spoilery nature of the latest promo, please spoiler tag any discussion about said spoilery promo.  We want to let the spoiler-phobic posters stay spoiler free.  The Arrow Spoiler-phobes are as close to The Unsullied as one can be.  And the Unsullied over on GoT are SCAREY.

[BkWurm1]

I was definitely expecting more from the Donna-Felicity interaction. I really thought this could allow us into her brain, but then she thinks Ray is a prince from Disney so...then again maybe we should actually study what Disney princes are like. Hmmm.

 

BR is classically handsome, like a Disney Prince, I really don't think she was refereeing to any other of their more noble characteristics. 

 

I was fine with Donna just saying how Felicity feels because I really don't doubt that she loves Oliver and I don't doubt she knows it - she is trying IMO to not let that matter since it seems to be a non starter but here that pesky thing about being in love with someone else is getting in the way. 

 

I think it's fair to say that Felicity genuinely likes and cares for Ray and she wants this relationship to work, but while she's been trying to let go of Oliver and trying to dive head first into this thing with Ray, I think she's been hoping if she just gave it time and devotion, it would turn into something more than a thing but it's not working.  And now that Ray is rushing full steam ahead, she's running out of time.  The choice Donna was suggesting I think comes down to setting Ray free, holding on a little longer and trying  to make it work (hoping down the line she comes to love him),  or I guess flat out decide that love isn't important.

 

I can;t think of any other options.    

[kismet]

I think it might be classic I care about you and should love you but I don't. I forget which review had it but it said this season has been Oliver's "I'm just not that into you" to Ras proposal. I feel like something similar might be happening with Ray/Felicity. Maybe the writer's have been watching too many bad rom coms. They are pulling all the cliche tropes out in season 3b with a lot of their relationships. At times it has felt a little like a cross between a lifetime movie and and after-school special. Ray & Felicity are trying to make it work for reasons and Ras needs to learn that NO means NO.

[looptab]

Question time! 

I'm reading many people complain/point out that the Olicity romance is basically recycling all the beats of Lauriver in season 1. Probably some have noted similarities in this very thread; my problem is, that season 1 is a big black hole in my memory (I honestly remember a few scenes at best, and certainly they are not Lauriver-related), and I have realized season 3 is going in that same direction, except for a few bright spots forever imprinted in my mind :)

So, do you agree with that statement, or not? And which are the similarities and/or differences for you? I'm talking mainly if there are any in terms of scenes, dialogues, specific messages conveyed.

[dtissagirl]

I agree that they're hitting the basic overall story beats:

 

- Oliver removed himself from availability

- Laurel in S1, Felicity in S3 embarked on a relationship with another guy

- Laurel in S1, Felicity in S3 inevitably realized other guy is not who they really want

- Break up [i'm assuming Felicity is breaking up with Palmer any time now]

-

Oliver gets the girl by episode 20-21. It didn't stick with Laurel because plot -- Tommy died. And spoilers indicate maybe it won't stick with Felicity because plot either -- Oliver joining the LoA might put a stop in a relationship.

 

HOWEVER, and this is the important part: the foundation of Laurel/Oliver was terribad, and ultimately revealed unsalvageable. Not to mention it ended up being repulsive to the majority of the audience.

 

Oliver/Felicity, otoh, have a solid, trust-based foundation to build upon. That is a GINORMOUS difference. So even if they're repeating the same story beats, it might work this time around because of that. Not only audiences are rooting for Oliver and Felicity, characters on the show are rooting for them.

 

I believe one of the reasons they're repeating the beats is because the EPs were completely blindsided by the rejection of L/O. And then they hit jackpot with Felicity, which gave them a second chance. And since they had already plotted out a multiple year plan of tying Oliver's regain of his humanity to romantic and familial love, they're trying it again, this time building upon a good foundation.

Edited April 3, 2015 by dancingnancy

[looptab]

I agree that they're hitting the basic overall story beats:

 

- Oliver removed himself from availability

- Laurel in S1, Felicity in S3 embarked on a relationship with another guy

- Laurel in S1, Felicity in S3 inevitably realized other guy is not who they really want

- Break up [i'm assuming Felicity is breaking up with Palmer any time now]

 

Yes, that's true, the main beats are there. But as far as I can see that's it, I don't seem to remember instances where the feel of the scenes was identical. Even the hospital kiss scene, that some have compared to season 1 O/L's hospital scene, came from completely different places. And that's honestly the only example I'm able to make, ahah. 

Edited April 3, 2015 by looptab

[dtissagirl]

I don't think there's any possible way for the feel of the scenes to be identical. I think people see the story beats repeating, and think "this scene is the same as that one", but imo that's a fallacy. There's the in-story reason: Oliver was hiding everything and the kitchen sink from Laurel in S1, so even if the romantic emotions were real, there were too many lies between them. And then there's the unfortunate external reason: Stephen and KC were operating under a blackhole of suckitude in terms of chemistry.

 

Felicity and Oliver have truth, and trust; and Stephen and EBR could lit up a thousand suns just by being in the same room.

Edited April 3, 2015 by dancingnancy

[looptab]

I couldn't agree more :)

[tv echo]

The story beats are pretty standard romance story beats.  It's everything else that changes.

[dtissagirl]

Yeah. I wish the story beats for Oliver and Felicity were something else entirely, but these writers decided from the get go that the main romance storyline would follow the "on-again-off-again" and "star-crossed" route [there was another cliché as well, I think? I forget what it was].

 

The first couple of episodes this season pretty much went out of their way to transform Oliver/Felicity into something that fit the within the on-again-off-again star-crossed template. And then they ran the same tropes they had already done with Laurel in S1. Maybe because they're lazy. Or maybe because romance is not their forte, and they only know these story beats. Write what you know, right?

[Password]

Which is disappointing because Oliver and Felicity's relationship is the furthest thing from Oliver and Laurel's, and that made it so appealing. Instead of taking hold of the sweet differences the writers latched onto inorganic differences to keep them apart.

They literally could've written a completely new, healthy (what we want) relationship that is far removed from Lauriver. But the beats remain even though the foundation is completely different.

[lemotomato]

I agree that they're hitting the basic overall story beats:

 

- Oliver removed himself from availability

- Laurel in S1, Felicity in S3 embarked on a relationship with another guy

- Laurel in S1, Felicity in S3 inevitably realized other guy is not who they really want

- Break up [i'm assuming Felicity is breaking up with Palmer any time now]

-

Oliver gets the girl by episode 20-21. It didn't stick with Laurel because plot -- Tommy died. And spoilers indicate maybe it won't stick with Felicity because plot either -- Oliver joining the LoA might put a stop in a relationship.

 

HOWEVER, and this is the important part: the foundation of Laurel/Oliver was terribad, and ultimately revealed unsalvageable. Not to mention it ended up being repulsive to the majority of the audience.

 

Oliver/Felicity, otoh, have a solid, trust-based foundation to build upon. That is a GINORMOUS difference. So even if they're repeating the same story beats, it might work this time around because of that. Not only audiences are rooting for Oliver and Felicity, characters on the show are rooting for them.

 

I believe one of the reasons they're repeating the beats is because the EPs were completely blindsided by the rejection of L/O. And then they hit jackpot with Felicity, which gave them a second chance. And since they had already plotted out a multiple year plan of tying Oliver's regain of his humanity to romantic and familial love, they're trying it again, this time building upon a good foundation.

I went back to watch the big Lauriver scene in 1x22, and it really highlights the points you made about why that relationship fell flat with the audience (or at least, for me). 

 

Oliver tells her that she knows him better than anyone, and that he cares about her more than anyone. That's supposed to be the big love declaration that the whole season was building up towards, except.... it really wasn't supported by anything we had seen. Laurel didn't know Oliver best, because we saw how she was oblivious about his cheating/commitment issues before the island, and his vigilante job in the present. She didn't know him because we saw that all he ever did was lie to her. It's fair to say that lots of other people know parts of him better than she did-- Diggle and Felicity and even Helena of him post-island, Tommy and Moira pre-island. And though he said that he cared about her more than anyone, he dated (not just slept with, but tried to start relationships with) other women, and they dumped him. Not to mention how he seemed fine about her and Tommy until the sweeps episodes, when for plot reasons, he changed his mind.

 

Compare all that with what we've seen of Olicity this season. Yes, some of the Lauriver beats have been repeated, but the difference is that this time, we've seen evidence supporting what the characters are saying. Felicity echoes the "I know him better than almost anyone" sentiment and we know that this is true because she's spent 2+ years being a part of almost every aspect of his life. When Oliver tells Felicity he loves her, we believe him because hasn't spent the season with other women trying to work out his issues, and because of 2+ years of partnership when he trusted her judgement, followed her advice, and most importantly, never lied to her. 

 

I can't tell if the Olicity parallels to season 1 Lauriver are on purpose to highlight the differences between the two or just because these writers have a romance template that they copy-and-paste, but either way, Olicity, even with its own flaws, come across much more positively. 

[AyChihuahua]

Also, after the big "Radioactive" scene, when she came to the mansion and he did the whole "chipping away" speech (which was stupid, btw), and they kissed, SA literally had no idea where to put his hands. It's absolutely hilarious. Totally worth a rewatch. I hate the whole scene, but that part is just funny.

[kismet]

I wanted to expand on a couple of non-spoilery statements made over on the spoilers thread, about Ray making Felicity a potentially worse person, and also, this:

Well articulated and on the spot as usual. I forgot to give you major kudos & props on this post!!! I got a little preoccupied with the whole sizzle reel. OOPS!

I had a whole mic drop gif to insert into my response, but somehow couldn't get it to work then & can't figure it out now.

 

So consider this my MIC DROP**** :)

[Chaser]

Also, after the big "Radioactive" scene, when she came to the mansion and he did the whole "chipping away" speech (which was stupid, btw), and they kissed, SA literally had no idea where to put his hands. It's absolutely hilarious. Totally worth a rewatch. I hate the whole scene, but that part is just funny.

I have no idea what the scene was meant to accomplish. I understand that there is bias with everything and things can be left up to interpretation, but Oliver's speech is his verison of "I know you like I know my own name." Completely random and not supported by anything shown. And I have to say SA was just bad in that scene. From the delievery of the lines to the awkward kiss and hand placement...it was just bad.

[kismet]

Rewatched last few episodes of s1, found some other parallels. In the hospital scene when Walter is returned, LL/OQ have conversation about Tommy. LL asks him to go tell TM that he no longer has feelings for her. He says he can't because it would be a lie. He also asks her if she's happy, because that is all she ever wanted for her. So the whole push her away for her own happiness is similar. But that is OQ default MO to push the people he loves away either for their own good or because he feels unworthy. Also he went to Tommy and told him that she chose him. Difference was he did it as part of mission (he was providing cover to get FS into Merlyn's mainframe, with the elevator shaft scene), so it was less about making it a case for LL. In the scene with Ray, OQ went out of his way twice to try to get Ray to trust Felicity for her happiness not the mission.

TBH I think the biggest indicator will come in 320 when they show the actual physical union of FS/OQ. It already looks different from promos, but it would be worthwhile to compare it after it actually airs. Right now after just watching the Radioactive scene, it feels more like the Ray/Felicity sex scene in gravity. Especially considering the window & Tommy overlooking sucked a lot of the romance out of the scene.

. But that hallway scene before the undertaking was so awkward and lacked the emotional pull of scene that should be significant. The words seemed right, but the emotional connection between SA & KC just wasn't there.

 

So I agree a lot of the romantic beats are similar. I think the biggest difference is that its being played by better instruments in EBR & SA. Their relationship has been shown to grow and evolve together since s1. They have built a solid foundation of friendship, trust, partnership and love. These 4 elements were not illustrated in pre-island LL/OQ, and since his return they have been hit or miss. So its hard to see how a s2 or s3 LL & OQ could reestablish a romantic connection. I think they are reestablishing their friendship, but their is a significant amount of baggage for them to get over. Between the pre-island issues, Sara & Tommy, they have a lot of obstacles and hurt that they would have to overcome. I also have said before and will continue to say I do not think that when they are together they make each other better. I think they tend to bring out the worst in each other. Sometimes people just don't fit well together, even if they have shared experiences and care about each other. I will say that OQ does love LL, just like he loved SL & TM - but I don't think its a romantic/heroic love to build a life around. The love OQ has shown for FS this season has seemed like the love he could build his life around. He's already made significant changes in how he lives. Her presence and influence seems to be a driving force in how he lives his day to day. I don't ever recall hearing him tell LL that if she asked him to do something, he would do it. He seems to have integrated her into his life even is he hasn't realized it. She has become fundamental to him, even if he hasn't fully realized it.

 

I can understand writers doing similar beats, because no offense the beats are pretty classic hero trope/journey stuff. The archetype of hero's love is what they are trying to show. They failed with LL and now they got a second chance w/ FS. I'm not sure what their original plan was but it did seem like they made a decision sometime before s2 to change course. Whether it was because they wanted to make Tommy's death more significant or they wanted to introduce Sara, but somehow it seemed like putting together LL & OQ was no longer a priority. If anything they sorta spent s2 showing us why the relationship was so toxic in the past & the present. Again, not sure what was part of their plan or what was just fate but it is undeniable that EBR/SA have amazing romantic chemistry and KC/SA have no romantic chemistry. I mean maybe I'm biased, but a lot more people than me also see the chemistry so we all can't be wrong. Their chemistry is palpable, in fact most of the time I see it more in their acting then their words. So who knows maybe the writers just aren't skilled at writing sophisticated romance? Its a skill and not every writer or show can pull it off. IMO this season has proven that they are not good with it. In s4, I hope they try to keep FS/OQ together and see if they have better luck with that writing style.

Edited April 3, 2015 by kismet

[blixie]

 

I wish the story beats for Oliver and Felicity were something else entirely,

 

Yes it's  upsetting they learned nothing from the failure of L/O, because they just said well people hated Laurel, but they love Felicity so this time it will be a great story! I'm still not convinced they get WHY this is a terrible model of romance, they are also enacting on the Flash with West Allen,which is only being saved by the likability of the actress and the fact that they have at least some chemistry.

[wonderwall]

Now that they're through with the L/O parallels of season 1, I think that the show can move on from that model. Hopefully we will see something fresh in season 4. Also, you can't deny that while some of the actions are similar, everything simmering underneath (the feelings) is completely different which is why I didn't mind O/F's journey as a couple this season.

[dtissagirl]

Yes it's  upsetting they learned nothing from the failure of L/O, because they just said well people hated Laurel, but they love Felicity so this time it will be a great story! I'm still not convinced they get WHY this is a terrible model of romance, they are also enacting on the Flash with West Allen,which is only being saved by the likability of the actress and the fact that they have at least some chemistry.

 

I get a feeling from the EPs that they're legit incapable of realizing there can actually be more than one problem with any given storyline. They think the S1 romance didn't work because the audience rejected Laurel, so they replaced Laurel. They think people didn't like Laurel because she wasn't Black Canary, now she's Black Canary. They're already scrambling to justify Palmer not really making that much an impression on the audience on Oliver/Felicity.

 

And the truth is they get away with it because people are still watching.