Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[Midnight Lullaby]

4 minutes ago, Password said:

I can't remember that episode.  He introduced Felicity aka his fiance as a friend? 

He said "Samantha, these are my friends. They are going to help us find William."

[Chaser]

I don't know what SA's feelings are on Olicity. It wouldn't surprise me if the negativity was getting to him. I don't think there is a lot of positivity out weighing the negative right now. The Olicity fandom brought a lot of good buzz and I saw a lot of the fandom down after the finale.

Olicity was left in a really undefined place.  The last couple seasons were much different. I think his recent answer reflects a bit of that. I would like to see a video of the remark because when I first read the quote about Felicity walking away, I thought it might be a joke in reference to the miraculous recovery. The fictional character part that sounds like a continuation of the real person v fictional statements he was making. It was awkward.

[looptab]

1 hour ago, kismet said:

From the spoilers section. Only read the summary, so not sure how spoilery the rest of the clips are.

I do have to agree that I think FS walked away to quickly from the relationship. She was right to walk away, but it was done a little hastily. I truly believe that if the writers were better they would have wrote O/F having an actual conversation about why she needed to walk away. OQ & certain parts of the audience need to understand that it had nothing to do with the son and everything to do with how OQ handled the situation. Their relationship is stronger and deeper than FS just storming off.

 

That was episode 16.

[apinknightmare]

8 minutes ago, Chaser said:

Olicity was left in a really undefined place.  The last couple seasons were much different. I think his recent answer reflects a bit of that. I would like to see a video of the remark because when I first read the quote about Felicity walking away, I thought it might be a joke in reference to the miraculous recovery. The fictional character part that sounds like a continuation of the real person v fictional statements he was making. It was awkward.

[kismet]

14 minutes ago, looptab said:

That was episode 16.

Yea, I don't remember that conversation. I also don't think its good timing to do it while orchestrating a fake wedding using the couple's actual wedding venue perhaps even plans to capture a criminal.

I stand by my belief that FS walked away too quickly. But it was done for plot purposes and necessary for the story-arc the writers written. Any genuine conversation would undo all the writers careful planning to keep the couple apart. It's crap writing but it achieved it's goal.

[Chaser]

I didn't a negative vibe from SA. He didn't say she was wrong in walking just that she was quick too. I bet he actually expected them to get back together. 

[kismet]

I'm glad that no one on the show has yet to declare that she was wrong to walk away.

We may quibble over the specifics or the timeline, but so far the good majority of us (including the show & actors) have agreed that she was right to walk away, or at least remained neutral. And that is reassuring moving forward. Because I was afraid at one point they might try to say that she was wrong to walk away, which would undermine her characterization.

[apinknightmare]

I think she was right to break off the engagement immediately and ask for some space, but I do agree that given what we'd seen of their relationship at that point, she was pretty quick to completely walk away from it. If the writing for the breakup wasn't such a plot-driven shitshow, we would've gotten a few moments leading up to the breakup where we either saw glimpses that Oliver was actually sliding back into being the guy she first met back in S1 who did lie and keep a whole lot of secrets. Maybe she would've doubted if he was being truthful about a few things? Then the whole, "You're always going to revert to being the guy on the island" would've made some sense, when on the show we've seen everything indicating that he's doing his damnedest not to be that guy. 

But that's probably expecting too much from writers who couldn't even keep the reasoning for the dumbass lie straight in the first place. 

[dtissagirl]

She would have been right if she had walked away from everything, like she planned post the Cupid mission of emotional manipulation -- not just the marriage. But that only lasted a week, and then Bee Lady attacked and she needed Team Arrow, and then a week later Laurel died and she was back in the team.

What I find super duper hilarious is the season ended with EVERYONE EVER legit leaving Oliver behind. Thea left, Dig left, Lance left, and Felicity STAYED. Nobody is talking about anyone else being too quick to walk away from Oliver. It's so funny, haha. /sarcasm.font

Edited June 7, 2016 by dtissagirl

[Ang]

1 hour ago, kismet said:

From the spoilers section. Only read the summary, so not sure how spoilery the rest of the clips are.

I do have to agree that I think FS walked away to quickly from the relationship. She was right to walk away, but it was done a little hastily. I truly believe that if the writers were better they would have wrote O/F having an actual conversation about why she needed to walk away. OQ & certain parts of the audience need to understand that it had nothing to do with the son and everything to do with how OQ handled the situation.

The thing that kills me dead about this show is how often it comes SO CLOSE to having a great thing, and this is an example of it.

If you look at it over the course of the show, it is entirely plausible for Felicity to break off the relationship at that point. I mean, we started out with class disparity and fiery confrontations based on philosophical differences. Then we've got abandonment/daddy issues, compounded by the fact that Felicity found out Cooper stole credit for her work, faked his death (letting her grieve and feel guilt for her role), then went full villain and tried to use and kill her. Follow that with Oliver making a full season's worth of decisions and plans without talking to her about any of it: putting the kibosh on their budding relationship, leaving to fight Ra's, deciding to work with Malcolm, faking League allegiance, pretending to kill his friends, planning a suicide rescue. That's a whole lot of "men in my life make huge, terrible decisions without me having a say." Heck, he even decided to leave Starling and, later, buy an engagement ring without discussing it with her first. 

Given all that context, is it any wonder Felicity felt like Oliver deciding to cut his son, about whom MALCOLM knew while she did not, out of his life without a hint of discussion the last straw? THAT makes sense to me, seems believable and realistic. But did the show bother to make reference to any of that? Not really. It's all "secrets and lies" with shades of Cheating Ollie. That may have made sense as, like others have pointed out, a Lauriver storyline, but it doesn't work here. They could have capitalized on the previous character and relationship development, and instead the scene featured a woman simply responding to a man's actions with no verbal context beyond the overly simplified interpretation of the immediate situation.

My feelings about that tendency to make things as dumb as possible and use women as things belong in the bitterness thread, but I will say here that I do wish they could at least figure out a way to leave space for a more complex interpretation, rather than making things so concretely dumb.

[Midnight Lullaby]

12 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

What I find super duper hilarious is the season ended with EVERYONE EVER legit leaving Oliver behind. Thea left, Dig left, Lance left, and Felicity STAYED. Nobody is talking about anyone else being too quick to walk away from Oliver. It's so funny, haha. /sarcasm.font

Just as funny as not talking about Dig telling Oliver "you don't trust, you don't love", that he is as dark inside as the people in the LOA, Thea making mean comments and telling him to mind his own business when she and Laurel made him come back. Felicity and her mean comments on the other hand...LOL.

[apinknightmare]

15 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

What I find super duper hilarious is the season ended with EVERYONE EVER legit leaving Oliver behind. Thea left, Dig left, Lance left, and Felicity STAYED. Nobody is talking about anyone else being too quick to walk away from Oliver. It's so funny, haha. /sarcasm.font

I'm not sure if you're directing this at me (since my reply is right above yours), but I'm discussing this purely because SA brought it up in relation to Oliver and Felicity going to couples counseling. It's not something I gave much thought about outside of his comment. And to be honest, I never thought that Diggle and Thea were walking away from Oliver, since Diggle had already established that it was his mission too, and Thea said she wasn't sure why she was there. They worked together, but Oliver and Felicity were on the verge of committing their lives to one another. We've watched their relationship develop onscreen and seen everything they've been through; I don't think there's anything wrong with discussing whether it was ended too quickly. 

Edited June 7, 2016 by apinknightmare

[dtissagirl]

9 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I'm not sure if you're directing this at me (since my reply is right above yours)

I really wasn't, your post only showed up to me after I posted. :)

[apinknightmare]

21 minutes ago, Ang said:

Heck, he even decided to leave Starling and, later, buy an engagement ring without discussing it with her first. 

I don't think including these things is fair - Oliver didn't strip her of her agency here. He told her he wanted to leave Starling if she would come with him - something that she decided to do. And I don't think there's anything wrong with proposing if he thought they were ready - she wasn't under any obligation to say yes. 

[dtissagirl]

30 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

Just as funny as not talking about Dig telling Oliver "you don't trust, you don't love", that he is as dark inside as the people in the LOA, Thea making mean comments and telling him to mind his own business when she and Laurel made him come back. Felicity and her mean comments on the other hand...LOL.

Hee. Yup. They set up a whole lot of stuff in 4A with regards to everyone's relationships with Oliver [to the point wherein 401-407 go around dealing with Oliver's relationships to each of the other characters], but that went completely away after the crossover. It was either solved, or forgotten, or both.

They totally set up Felicity as Oliver's most important relationship all the way until the BMD exploded, but after they blew it up, they kinda stopped dealing with ALL of Oliver's relationships, not just O/F. It's just that O/F is the most obvious one because the set up was so good in 401-409 [minus 408] culminating in the proposal, and then in 410-413, with Felicity at her most vulnerable, and Oliver being pretty great at support if you forget he's hiding a secret kid. But then they blew it up, and along went a lot Oliver's character beats.

The 3rd act of the season isolated Oliver in a really weird way. He still had scenes with everyone, but they were for plot, not for character. Diggle's focus were Andy and Lyla. Thea's focus were Alex/Anarky/Malcolm. Lance and Donna had each other. Felicity was dealing with her father, and her parents relationships, and Curtis. Oliver stopped having relationship beats -- except with Laurel, but then she died, and then the flashbacks of hilarity meant nothing because she was dead and you can't advance character like that.

I don't even know if TPTB realize they kinda ditched the themes they spent the first half of the season setting up for Oliver. They said "family" was the main theme of the season, but Oliver didn't have any of that explored after the BMD. Instead the family theme jumped to the other characters' development beats, and Oliver's theme changed to "savior of the city". Weird writing structure is super weird.

Edited June 7, 2016 by dtissagirl

[apinknightmare]

35 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

Just as funny as not talking about Dig telling Oliver "you don't trust, you don't love", that he is as dark inside as the people in the LOA, Thea making mean comments and telling him to mind his own business when she and Laurel made him come back. Felicity and her mean comments on the other hand...LOL.

But we discussed how awful Diggle saying those things was at length in the premiere thread. Same with Laurel and Thea being jerks about Oliver taking charge when they're the ones who asked him to come back to Star City and do just that. 

Edited June 7, 2016 by apinknightmare

[Ang]

11 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

I don't think including these things is fair - Oliver didn't strip her of her agency here. He told her he wanted to leave Starling if she would come with him - something that she decided to do. And I don't think there's anything wrong with proposing if he thought they were ready - she wasn't under any obligation to say yes. 

By themselves, I completely agree that those things are harmless. I just threw them in there because they COULD be be construed as additional evidence (to an overly sensitized Felicity, for example) as Oliver not bothering with preliminary discussions even about things that equally affect another person. 

[apinknightmare]

4 minutes ago, Ang said:

By themselves, I completely agree that those things are harmless. I just threw them in there because they COULD be be construed as additional evidence (to an overly sensitized Felicity, for example) as Oliver not bothering with preliminary discussions even about things that equally affect another person. 

But your qualifier was: "That's a whole lot of "men in my life make huge, terrible decisions without me having a say."

She had a say in both of those things. I agree that Oliver has done stuff that stripped her of her agency, but there's no need to include things where he hasn't. 

Edited June 7, 2016 by apinknightmare

[Midnight Lullaby]

8 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

But we discussed how awful Diggle saying those things was at length in the premiere thread. Same with Laurel and Thea being jerks about Oliver taking charge when they're the ones who asked him to come back to Star City and do just that. We've discussed Laurel's comments to him (and others) as well as Felicity's. 

I wasn't talking about the people in the forum specifically. I was pointing out how in general what happened with Dig and some characters' actions towards Oliver aren't really talked about beyond the very moment they happen and sometimes not even then. Even by the show by the way. For example with Oliver and Dig we had one episode where Oliver got Dig's back and that was it, BBFs like before. Show, critics and fans moved on while we all know that if Felicity said something like that it would have been relevant in all their future interactions until the end of the show. 

[looptab]

19 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

I don't even know if TPTB realize they kinda ditched the themes they spent the first half of the season setting up for Oliver. They said "family" was the main theme of the season, but Oliver didn't have any of that explored after the BMD. Instead the family theme jumped to the other characters' development beats, and Oliver's theme changed to "savior of the city". Weird writing structure is super weird.

Thank you. After the season ended I was left with a sense of, "Ok, but what was the point?" but couldn't really put a name on what was bothering me, and you just pinpointed it. It really feels like the first half and the second half go towards two different directions. 

[apinknightmare]

3 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I wasn't talking about the people in the forum specifically. I was pointing out how in general what happened with Dig and some characters' actions towards Oliver aren't really talked about beyond the very moment they happen and sometimes not even then. Even by the show by the way. For example with Oliver and Dig we had one episode where Oliver got Dig's back and that was it, BBFs like before. Show, critics and fans moved on while we all know that if Felicity said something like that it would have been relevant in all their future interactions until the end of the show. 

I'm not sure I agree. Felicity's tendency to be nasty when she's angry comes up in fandom talk more than anything specific she's said to Oliver, and only, I think, because it's repeated behavior and not a one-off thing. And even in an episode like 4x06 where she was nasty to him pretty much the entire episode, all was forgiven by the end, much like it was with Diggle. The only thing she's ever said to him that's been brought up again was about thinking he couldn't change, and it was only brought up then so she could make sure he knew that she didn't really believe that. 

[Ang]

23 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

I don't even know if TPTB realize they kinda ditched the themes they spent the first half of the season setting up for Oliver. They said "family" was the main theme of the season, but Oliver didn't have any of that explored after the BMD. Instead the family theme jumped to the other characters' development beats, and Oliver's theme changed to "savior of the city". Weird writing structure is super weird.

I liked your analysis of the season. My initial thoughts on it were more basic: they need to stop passing drugs around the writers room.

7 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

But your qualifier was: "That's a whole lot of "men in my life make huge, terrible decisions without me having a say."

She had a say in both of those things. 

I didn't mean to include them in that category. And I admit my personal bias is showing here. I'm not a huge fan of surprises, and when it comes to couple decisions, I want to give more input than yes or no. I take it as a sign of respect and inclusion when someone includes me in the process of considering options, and I feel disempowered when I'm left out of that process. To me, a true partnership doesn't consist of one person telling the other what to do, or even artificially limiting their options with yes/no, in/out questions.

[tangerine95]

Yeah I thought it was really weird how after 4.16 all the personal relationship stuff for Oliver kinda stopped. I was expecting that to be when they really push the Oliver as a support and hope for everyone but the first half of the season was actually better at that.They kinda just made him a symbol of hope for the city and for me at least that wasn't something I cared about all that much compared to his personal relationships especially with Felicity.Especially when the people in the city were shown as the kind that were fine letting a psychopath nuke the world because their city sucks.

They were talking about the question of the season being can the characters have personal lives and be heroes and by the end we didn't really get an answer at least a positive one which I guess is what they're going for eventually. At the end Oliver basically had just being the mayor and lost Felicity, Digg left, Thea is off the team if not gone too, Laurel is dead, he gave up his kid.Felicity pretty much just has the mission right now.Guess they have at least 2 more seasons so they need to drag it out before he actually finds a balance. Hopefully that finally happens in season 5.

I think we only got Oliver being the support for Diggle in the second half and for the others  a little in the funeral episode but he kinda had hope one episode and suddenly lost it so it wasn't that well executed.I think they put too much motivation for the rest of the season on the death and especially once they made that Laurel who was irrelevant to anyone but Quentin, it fell flat at the end. 

[Midnight Lullaby]

1 minute ago, apinknightmare said:

I'm not sure I agree. Felicity's tendency to be nasty when she's angry comes up in fandom talk more than anything specific she's said to Oliver, and only, I think, because it's repeated behavior and not a one-off thing. And even in an episode like 4x06 where she was nasty to him pretty much the entire episode, all was forgiven by the end, much like it was with Diggle. The only thing she's ever said to him that's been brought up again was about thinking he couldn't change, and it was only brought up then so she could make sure he knew that she didn't really believe that. 

I saw her remark about the "fantasy island" being brought up again this year just to make an example of people's memory that surprises me in its accuracy when it's about Felicity's remarks toward Oliver because I honestly forgot about that scene.

Show wise I think it was equally important for Dig to admit he told Oliver he is incapable of love and he is dark inside out of anger, because he felt betrayed but he didn't really mean it, yet it was never done.

[dtissagirl]

31 minutes ago, looptab said:

Thank you. After the season ended I was left with a sense of, "Ok, but what was the point?" but couldn't really put a name on what was bothering me, and you just pinpointed it. It really feels like the first half and the second half go towards two different directions. 

They didn't even stop dealing with the family theme completely, it just stopped being part of Oliver's story, once he sent the demon spawn away, and Felicity ditched him. No family for Oliver! #foreveralone

 

14 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

They kinda just made him a symbol of hope for the city and for me at least that wasn't something I cared about all that much compared to his personal relationships especially with Felicity.

It doesn't help that the election plot didn't make the city relevant to the story -- as it should have. We only know bad crap about living in SC. There's only the speech Curtis gave in the finale to counter that, and it's not enough. It's even hard to care about Oliver becoming Mayor because there's no worldbuilding, and all of the people we care about left the city. So right now? Oliver's the interim Mayor of Felicity, Thea, and Curtis, because they're legit the only people in SC right now we know enough to care about.

Edited June 7, 2016 by dtissagirl

[RussianRoulette]

As someone who is getting married I two weeks I wholeheartedly agree with the analyses that Felicity was very quick to walk away. I mean agreeing to mariage entails some kind of compromise, I think it's the basis. I, for one, would do whatever it takes for the survival of my couple. That being said if my soon-to-be husband prevented me from having any kind of agency or hid something major that could have a major impact on my/our future  I would kick his ass 7 way to hell and back. Regarding SA's remarks, I don't think much of it. He's the lead and of course he will be behind what sells the most. 

Edited June 7, 2016 by RussianRoulette

[Soulfire]

52 minutes ago, Ang said:

... they COULD be be construed as additional evidence (to an overly sensitized Felicity, for example) as Oliver not bothering with preliminary discussions even about things that equally affect another person. 

Perhaps this would have bothered me if this was an overall trait Oliver had in his relationship with Felicity. But it hasn't been. In 401, he consulted with her before deciding to come back to Star City to help the team -- she was even the one who wanted to go, not him. Furthermore, she was the one arguing for staying in the city, something they discussed and agreed on. In 409, he discussed the proposal with her and only proposed after making sure it was what Felicity wanted, too. There are probably more examples that could be made between those episodes. And sure, he didn't discuss proposing to her in 401 because he wanted to surprise her, because he was a man in love with a woman who loved him too, someone he now LIVED with -- a pretty natural progression. And going by the way she talked about it in 409, Felicity wanted to marry him.

Also, remember his quote from 401, about getting away from the city and starting over? "... and we were both right there together leading that charge.", and Felicity's reply, "I know. And I thought that was what we needed..." Felicity chose to leave the city with him. I think viewing it as something Oliver chose for them strips Felicity of agency in a situation where she had a say.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Soulfire

[dtissagirl]

I think from the moment they were in a relationship, the only time Felicity didn't have any agency was the kid, but -- she didn't know about him. Then after she found out, she had agency in deciding she didn't want to marry Oliver anymore.

I do think there's an imbalance in that Felicity is often stripped of narrative POV + reaction beats for plot, and Oliver isn't, so it feels like he has more agency.

[AyChihuahua]

42 minutes ago, RussianRoulette said:

As someone who is getting married I two weeks I wholeheartedly agree with the analyses that Felicity was very quick to walk away. I mean agreeing to mariage entails some kind of compromise, I think it's the basis. I, for one, would do whatever it takes for the survival of my couple. That being said if my soon-to-be husband prevented me from having any kind of agency or hid something major that could have a major impact on my/our future  I would kick his ass 7 way to hell and back. Regarding SA's remarks, I don't think much of it. He's the lead and of course he will be behind what sells the most. 

Some compromises =/= you can lie to me about something huge/make me think you're helping murder me once year, and make me a stepmother without, you know, telling me.

[TimetravellingBW]

5 hours ago, Ang said:

The thing that kills me dead about this show is how often it comes SO CLOSE to having a great thing, and this is an example of it.

If you look at it over the course of the show, it is entirely plausible for Felicity to break off the relationship at that point. I mean, we started out with class disparity and fiery confrontations based on philosophical differences. Then we've got abandonment/daddy issues, compounded by the fact that Felicity found out Cooper stole credit for her work, faked his death (letting her grieve and feel guilt for her role), then went full villain and tried to use and kill her. Follow that with Oliver making a full season's worth of decisions and plans without talking to her about any of it: putting the kibosh on their budding relationship, leaving to fight Ra's, deciding to work with Malcolm, faking League allegiance, pretending to kill his friends, planning a suicide rescue. That's a whole lot of "men in my life make huge, terrible decisions without me having a say." Heck, he even decided to leave Starling and, later, buy an engagement ring without discussing it with her first. 

Given all that context, is it any wonder Felicity felt like Oliver deciding to cut his son, about whom MALCOLM knew while she did not, out of his life without a hint of discussion the last straw? THAT makes sense to me, seems believable and realistic. But did the show bother to make reference to any of that? Not really. It's all "secrets and lies" with shades of Cheating Ollie. That may have made sense as, like others have pointed out, a Lauriver storyline, but it doesn't work here. They could have capitalized on the previous character and relationship development, and instead the scene featured a woman simply responding to a man's actions with no verbal context beyond the overly simplified interpretation of the immediate situation.

Yes to all of this. The most frustrating thing about this, is with Felicity's characterization, background and Oliver's actions in previous seasons, it makes absolute sense that she would walk away because he hid such a huge secret from her. It's justified, it's in character and it goes back to Oliver cutting her out in Season 3 that they never really addressed. Trouble is, the show never bothered to give Felicity a voice or perspective, and as always were more worried about a) plot-driven arcs and big gut-punching scenes and b) making sure Oliver didn't look like a douche.

Because I like Felicity's character and look at the show as a whole, it's super easy to understand her motivations and mindset. But too many viewers don't think about her perspective, just the dialogue in text. (Seriously show, if you're struggling that much with conveying character's pov, set aside 5 minutes at the end of every episode where Team Arrow sits in a circle with a feelings stick and says where they're at. Maybe that will help you to write outside your comfort zone of "someone does something stupid because they didn't talk about it.") 

Ugh, as usual the show has ok ideas and then fails on carrying then out. 

Edited June 8, 2016 by TimetravellingBW

[Carrie Ann]

I'm not sure how many people would permanently end that kind of relationship, right at that moment, having barely talked about it. I think maybe that's what Stephen was getting at.

And I'm not trying to take a poll here, because it really doesn't matter what any one of us would do, only what we believe Felicity would do. To that point, when she ended things so finally in 416 (more than 415, because I assumed, stupidly, that there would be more enlightening conversation to follow, but, haha nope), I wasn't completely convinced. I had a feeling I wouldn't be, because of how great their relationship was in 401-14 (minus 408 and most of 410). I just didn't feel sold that Felicity would have permanently lost all faith in Oliver, after years of seeing his growth, and after the months they were in a pretty great relationship. 

But...turns out she didn't. And honestly, as much as I hated basically every aspect of their breakup from 408 on down the line, I actually think that by the end of the season, the "quickness" made more sense to me. The writers did some work to show Felicity's underlying issues and tendencies--her mother's pistachio thing, Curtis drawing some parallels for her, her admitting that she was in pain and was wrong to say that Oliver could never change, etc. To me, those things indicated that she ended things so quickly and finally partially as a defense mechanism, to close up her little pistachio shell. She was extremely upset, overwhelmed by the enormity of his fuck-up and the fear that he really never would change. Once she had some time to absorb it, she didn't run back to him, but she did realize she was wrong about the most damning thing she said--that he could never change. If he can change, then the door is open again. Which is why it was pretty anticlimactic that they just went nowhere with that, on Oliver's side. He wasn't given the opportunity to prove he'd changed that we all thought he'd get. He didn't even indicate that he was going to try to win her back. They just...dropped it. Cool, great storytelling, Team.

[way2interested]

I'll give the writers and the show a fraction of some credit despite the mess that overall subplot became. The story was full of worst case scenario story choices that lacked the necessary pov, room to breathe, and conclusion to really live up to the story they were telling and characters that were within the plot. However, I do think that the writers at least avoided even worse options for Oliver and Felicity's relationship that would have made the story even harder to swallow and go along with throughout the rest of 4b and coming towards s5.

That's not to say that I'm going for a "well, it could be worse," argument (since Arrow has sadly committed that fault before). I'm just thinking of certain parts of the story that I didn't completely dislike and that show that the writers at least partially thought through parts to a certain extent. Parts like,

• Felicity breaking up with Oliver: Oliver did something wrong and received the consequences for it, and Felicity did not compromise her right to be upset with Oliver. It's the one thing I needed to happen in the midst of all of this, and I'm glad the writers (to an extent) followed through.
• Felicity finding out the secret in private: Oliver may not have told her, but Felicity found out in private because a super villain couldn't help but rub salt on a wound rather than public humiliation via the dramatic reveal at the debate theory that was going around. In addition, Felicity was still patient and focused throughout the entire episode while being dedicated to rescuing the kid (not to mention even attempting to keep the kid a secret herself in the first few minutes of the episode).
• Felicity not being mad at Oliver for having a kid: Keeping the kid a secret was enough for Felicity to be mad at Oliver, but I am glad that the show kind of added some more layers of why she broke up with him beyond Oliver lying to her (even if it is often simplified to just that by many viewers)
• Oliver and Felicity retaining a pretty respectful relationship post break-up: They may not have had as many moments together as I would have wanted, but post-416 Oliver and Felicity still had a somewhat close connection (even to an extent that felt like SA and EBR weren't playing them as broken up) that supports the bond that they share and an eventual re-connection (that sadly never came or was set up in 423)
• Oliver not doing something completely irredeemable: Keeping the kid a secret while actively planning to get married, and in addition to still not sharing with Felicity after everything was out in the open, was an awful move that warranted a break-up, but, despite the situation, I still feel supportive of the relationship. No one cheated on the other, killed anyone, or actively tried to hurt or demean the other. The plot showed the flaws of both characters (although framed one way more innocently than the other) along with some of the more redeeming aspects of each of them (Felicity's backbone and self-respect along with Oliver's [over]protecting love and respect for Felicity). Plus, moments like the ones in 409 and 420 still remind me that these two are at their best when with each other, and even the two of them sharing a good scene together can almost make me completely forget the shortcomings of the plot, which is something that 421-423 was missing imo.

In the end, this was a plot that happened that could have and should have been better executed and concluded, but I recognize some spots that could have been worse but weren't and am grateful that I'm still supporting of Oliver and Felicity as characters and in a relationship.   

[looptab]

That's true,  they were careful (as much as they could) with them. I'm sure they're going to eventually put them back together, though I have no idea what the writers are going to do in S5. Part of me thinks they might bring in a new  love interest for Oliver - though that'll be tough to sell after what we've seen of Olicity the past two seasons - and delay their reconciliation to later in the season rather than sooner. 

Obviously this is worst case scenario, and my hope is that they would just let them be. But, if they do go down this road, my only request is that they let them be friendly with each other, rather than have them fight or be at odds. We all know that would be awful, I hope they know it too.

[kismet]

I really don't think they are going to bring in a new love interest. I can't really see them stalling it with alternative love interests. SAs heart eyes just won't cooperate.

But if they do, I think they will bring one in for FS before they bring it for OQ. If only because they just can't help but try to redo all of their stubborn plot points. They probably want another go at FS dating that does not include RP, since he was not a successful love interest - despite their protestations. I just hope if they do, it is not for another spin-off opportunity.

[dtissagirl]

12 hours ago, Carrie Ann said:

He wasn't given the opportunity to prove he'd changed that we all thought he'd get. He didn't even indicate that he was going to try to win her back. They just...dropped it. Cool, great storytelling, Team.

 

10 hours ago, way2interested said:

Plus, moments like the ones in 409 and 420 still remind me that these two are at their best when with each other, and even the two of them sharing a good scene together can almost make me completely forget the shortcomings of the plot, which is something that 421-423 was missing imo.

I think this is my biggest disappointment with how they dealt with O/F this season. I was resigned to the fact that this was a contrived breakup. I was aware from the get go that in between the fake wedding and Laurel dying there wouldn't be much about O/F. But I figured they would do some set up for something to shift in between them in the last few episodes, and presto -- there came 420, and their conversation about how Felicity DOES believe Oliver can change, and Oliver telling Felicity that they way he ~did magicks~ was thinking of her. That was both a pretty good generic set up to finish up a breakup storyline, but also A REALLY REALLY GOOD setup for Oliver and Felicity specifically.

And then... nothing really came out of it. I mean, it did in that the very last scene of the two of them standing together IS something that happened. And I'm a sucker for symbolism so  I eat that kind of imagery like I eat cheese... but if I look at the overall story beats between their scenes in 420 and that last stand in 423, it REALLY feels like we're missing about 5 O/F scenes in between. At that's what's disappointing me -- they set up perfectly in 420, then they wrapped it up pretty unsatisfactorily.

[Carrie Ann]

I agree. There was buildup to something happening, and then...nothing. It really makes me feel like the initial plan was to end with reconciliation, and that plan was scrapped pretty late for some reason. My hope is that MG and WM were thinking ahead to S5 and at the last minute decided they wanted to write a getting-back-together arc for O/F then, rather than wrap it up this season when there was so much other stuff going on.

[looptab]

The only way I can rationalize that - to save my own sanity and not be too bummed about it - is to keep repeating myself that 421-423 cover just a few days, and that 421 took place soon after 420 (or didn't it? I'm not sure on this). Sure, it sucks that for us they were 3 long episodes, and that they were basically apart for most of them. But that final shot was promising, so I'll hang onto this for the next few months. :)

[tangerine95]

 What I don't get is why even do a break up if they weren't going to be able to do much with it.Oliver and Felicity were either not having scenes or acting pretty much like they didn't even break up like in 4.20.At least in season 3 they millked the angst for all it was worth.This break up for all the hype they made about it was pretty underwhelming imo.

I think it was a timing issue and they tried to shove all the post break up angst, Oliver trying to fix it, another longer break up scene etc, into 4.16 because they won't have time later. Which doesn't work because there's just no way to make that big of a deal out of a relationship and then drop any significant development between them in the last episodes and act like there are more important things.The last episodes always are just a few days with all hell breaking loose around them and Oliver and Felicity always managed to get big romantic moments before.  that's why I think the reason for postponing olicity getting back together was so it doesn't happen in the same season Laurel died and a few eps after.I think they want enough time to pass so it can't be connected to her at all.

I don't think they'll be giving them other love interests tho I get the concern since it's not like they haven't done dumb stuff no one expected them to like the lie about the kid.But I feel like they know they already played out the other love interests thing and even gave them their perfect on paper one and still had them chose each other.Not to even mention they dropped the fb girl as LI and didn't even give them a kiss and we all know that's the past and has nothing to do with olicity. I don't see them daring to bring in a present day LI for either of them tbh based on how they've been written.

[Midnight Lullaby]

36 minutes ago, Carrie Ann said:

I agree. There was buildup to something happening, and then...nothing. It really makes me feel like the initial plan was to end with reconciliation, and that plan was scrapped pretty late for some reason. My hope is that MG and WM were thinking ahead to S5 and at the last minute decided they wanted to write a getting-back-together arc for O/F then, rather than wrap it up this season when there was so much other stuff going on.

That's my feeling as well because Olicity is the only aspect of the season left unfinished and they always give some kind of closure for everyone in the finale. Is it possible that they didn't expect a so negative reaction to the lie? Because I remember MG wanting to know Sepinwall's opinion on 4x08 and he didn't get the praises I guess he was expecting. And he gave an interview to explain the lie which seemed weird to me at the time. Also critics didn't have a good reaction at the way they handled the break up either if I don't remember wrong. And there's the matter of the viewers they lost after 4x15 that could have been seen as a negative sign as well.

Maybe they thought they had to rethink the initial plan because they realized they misunderstood the way the SL was going to be received?

Edited June 8, 2016 by Midnight Lullaby

[Thundercatmary]

Who is Sepinwell?

[dtissagirl]

1 minute ago, Thundercatmary said:

Who is Sepinwell?

Alan Sepinwall: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Sepinwall

He's one of the most respected pro critics out there, and he's a lifelong comic book reader, so his opinions on the comic book shows are VERY sought out by the creatives.

[Thundercatmary]

Oh interesting, anyone remember what his thoughts on Arrow were?

[dtissagirl]

1 minute ago, Thundercatmary said:

Oh interesting, anyone remember what his thoughts on Arrow were?

He doesn't review it frequently, but he did the crossover, and he thought the baby mama drama was dumb:
http://www.hitfix.com/whats-alan-watching/review-arrow-legends-of-yesterday-hawkman-hawkgirl-and-baby-mama-drama
 

WARNING: the video at the top of the page autoplays if you don't have a blocker.

[apinknightmare]

3 minutes ago, Thundercatmary said:

Oh interesting, anyone remember what his thoughts on Arrow were?

He tweets about it more often than he reviews it. He seems to have a lot of the same issues that we do wrt to the writing. 

[looptab]

Ah, maybe they left it up in the air because every critic complained about the break-up (and the lie before that) pointing out how it had DRAMA written all over it - so they decided to not touch the storyline anymore as a way to say "No, you were all wrong?" :p

Hope you all are right wrt the new love interest. 

And finally - though this is definitely not related to the current conversation - I hope in S5 Oliver starts having a better opinion of himself. He thinks everyone is better than him, but especially in his romantic relationships, he thinks Felicity is so much better than him, he thinks Laurel was so much better than him (LOL), just stop with the inferiority complex and love yourself, bro.

[SmallScreenDiva]

Sepinwall used to review Arrow fairly regularly during the first two seasons. He was also one of the more vocal fans of Original Team Arrow. He and Maureen Ryan, who was with Huff Post at the time, used to really emphasize the core three in their reviews. I think he stopped regularly reviewing the show sometime in S3. 

[Thundercatmary]

I feel like a lot of people are so quick to point to Olicity as being the big problems with the show. In reality I think it boils down to two things, to many masks on the show and taking the focus away from Original Team Arrow.

[Midnight Lullaby]

6 minutes ago, looptab said:

Ah, maybe they left it up in the air because every critic complained about the break-up (and the lie before that) pointing out how it had DRAMA written all over it - so they decided to not touch the storyline anymore as a way to say "No, you were all wrong?" :p

 

I was thinking something like "Oh shit no one is buying Oliver had no choice and the baby mama drama was an awesome idea." ---> Pro Oliver damage control ---> not putting Oliver and Felicity back together right away. LOL

[thegirlsleuth]

This is forgotten thanks to the dumpster fire that was the baby mama storyline, but critics hated the "Oliver leaves Felicity alone in the hospital" storyline, too.  I remember Ryan McGee saying he was not watching Arrow after that, although I have no idea if he followed through.  

I hated that storyline, too, and assumed there'd be payoff later, but nope.

[bijoux]

20 minutes ago, thegirlsleuth said:

I hated that storyline, too, and assumed there'd be payoff later, but nope.

I think there actually was. He was present during Felicity's recovery from that point on and around for both Thea's and Laurel's later hospitalizations. There was no grand gesture, but it felt like he progressed on that front at least.