Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[Midnight Lullaby]

It's really the dinner that makes me facepalm at Sara and Oliver. If they wanted to be together for whatever reason at their point, they were certainly free to do so. And it's not that I think they were obliged to keep it a secret or something, just that they should have put a little more thought in it and used a lighter touch. I still liked them both better than Laurel at that point, but really, why you so dumb?

I agree with you. If they wanted to be together they were free to do so and to face the consequences that were quite obvious I might say. I had no sympathy for Laurel in that moment but she was clearly having very serious issues with drinking and taking pills anyone could spot from a mile away and if you care about someone who is having a hard time you try to make it easier for them, not harder. And I know Laurel was horrible to Sara too and I hated that but it doesn't mean they all had to be horrible as well. Every one of them was selfish and I couldn't root for any of them. I just wanted that cringeworthy dinner to be over.

Also IMO a sister should come before any men so the whole sister swapping didn't make any of the three involved look any good in my eyes. I liked Sara, I love Oliver, but the whole L/O/S mess was terrible.

[lemotomato]

As a friend? To work with him on the right side of the law? I mean, those are the only explanations that make sense to me. The show was done with ship baiting (or not ship baiting but deliberate misdirection using both sisters to set up the Gotcha with Felicity in the finale) at that point. The end of Season 2 marked a change in Oliver & Laurel's relationship in that now, FINALLY, she was in the know — and Season 3 did start with a new "partnership" with the "You catch them, I cook them." I wish Sara had said more (or that the writers set it up a little better). Because I cringed when I first heard that, too, my mind immediately going to "Yuck, she's passing him to Laurel again like a freakin' baton."

I think they were being deliberately vague about what Sara meant. I don't think they were done ship baiting at all at that point. I remember after 2x23 it was still widely speculated that Oliver had sent Felicity in to Slade's clutches because he was willing to sacrifice her to save Laurel. There seemed to be just as many people thinking that since Laurel finally knew his secret, and Sara was out of the picture, she was finally on her way to becoming BC and getting back together with Oliver. 

 

It wasn't clear until the season 3 premiere that Oliver had actually meant it when he told Felicity "I love you". 

[AyChihuahua]

I remember after 2x23 it was still widely speculated that Oliver had sent Felicity in to Slade's clutches because he was willing to sacrifice her to save Laurel.  

I know a lot of ppl specced that, but I think I would have had to be done with the show permanently if that had been what he was doing.

[apinknightmare]

I think they were being deliberately vague about what Sara meant. I don't think they were done ship baiting at all at that point. I remember after 2x23 it was still widely speculated that Oliver had sent Felicity in to Slade's clutches because he was willing to sacrifice her to save Laurel.

 

Didn't MG on Twitter or Tumblr outright say that Oliver using the woman he loved as bait to best Slade was why the episode was named "Unthinkable"?

[Sakura12]

I think they were being deliberately vague about what Sara meant. I don't think they were done ship baiting at all at that point. I remember after 2x23 it was still widely speculated that Oliver had sent Felicity in to Slade's clutches because he was willing to sacrifice her to save Laurel. There seemed to be just as many people thinking that since Laurel finally knew his secret, and Sara was out of the picture, she was finally on her way to becoming BC and getting back together with Oliver. 

 

It wasn't clear until the season 3 premiere that Oliver had actually meant it when he told Felicity "I love you". 

 

Wasn't that also the episode where Slade said he kidnapped Laurel and both Oliver and Sara were like "Oh well, gotta save the city"? 

Edited March 16, 2016 by Sakura12

[Morrigan2575]

I think the jacket made that line worse. Like she was saying "you get Oliver and BC now."

.i never saw it that way. I just always assumed it was a nudge, mudge, wink, wink to the audience that Laurel would become Black Canary and be a part of Oliver's team or (worse case scenario) his primary partner in crime. Going back to O/L after the ILY and O/S hookup coupled with Sara's (previous) line about Oliver needing someone to bring out his inner light, just seemed like an impossibility to me.

[lemotomato]

Didn't MG on Twitter or Tumblr outright say that Oliver using the woman he loved as bait to best Slade was why the episode was named "Unthinkable"?

Yes, but I think the tweet was answering a fan's question. He didn't volunteer the info. 

 

On the show, they even had Felicity self-deprecatingly say "Talk about unthinkable... you and me, I mean." To the general audience that doesn't go online digging for answers, I think the show was being deliberately coy. 

[BkWurm1]

implying that they had been together since about age 15?  If Oliver wasn't cheating on Laurel, then they were constantly breaking up and making up again.  There's no way to spin those 10 girls into a healthy relationship with Laurel.

 

The person I had the conversation with was convinced it had been established somewhere that Oliver and Laurel had been together for two years.  I'm not sure where they got that information but with all the comic tie in stuff, I don't know, they could be right and the "loved you for half my life" could have been more on a friend basis?   But still, if that was the case, Sara bringing up at least 10 girls that Oliver had been with would make no sense unless it was a recent thing.  10 girls before a two year relationship wouldn't be worthy of remarking upon. 

 

 

 

"He didn't cheat with ten women! He only cheated with two!"

 

Oy.

 

The argument made to me wasn't that he'd only cheated on her twice (they fully supported that Oliver was a constant cheat) but that Laurel only knew about her sister and then later BM.  It was a counterpoint to me not being able to consider Laurel entirely blameless in her bad relationship with Oliver since she willingly and knowingly accepted his behavior of cheating as just a part of their relationship. If she really didn't know he was cheating then it would absolve her of that at least but I swear that is not the impressing that season one gave me.

 

 So first, does anyone remember if Laurel knew about Oliver cheating on her multiple times as of season one?  Again, I feel like she did, but I can't remember why.  Did Oliver apologize for more than just Sara perhaps? 

 

Either way, I still don't think it makes sense for Sara to bring up knowing about the 10 girls Oliver had been with if it wasn't proof that CURRENTLY Oliver was still not ready to settle down (and how icky is it that they would refer to his constant infidelity as just "not ready to settle down?")  But the line is not clear in itself.  I think the implication is clear in conjunction with everything else being discussed, but the specific wording is fuzzy.  Like Laurel saying Sara was being a bitch about it implies that Sara was dredging up something personally painful to Laurel and rubbing her nose in it.  Just a rehash of the girls Oliver had dated in the past IMO doesn't fit with that reaction. 

 

Yes, but I think the tweet was answering a fan's question. He didn't volunteer the info. 

 

On the show, they even had Felicity self-deprecatingly say "Talk about unthinkable... you and me, I mean." To the general audience that doesn't go online digging for answers, I think the show was being deliberately coy. 

I'm so glad that SA sold that look and smile at the end.  I never doubted that he really meant his I love you, just that he wasn't ready to face up to what it meant.  (And that Felicity wanted to believe it was true but had only begun to fathom the possibility)

 

I naturally expected the show to tease the hell out of me for a lot longer before I'd have had confirmation of that fact, but at least I didn't spend the summer worried that he'd just been messing with Felicity's head.  

Edited March 16, 2016 by BkWurm1

[nksarmi]

Oliver did tell Sara that he and Laurel had tried a relationship again when he got back from the island. I think it was in the same conversation in 205 when Sara remarks  "Ollie and Laurel, always and forever."

 

Oh wow, I totally do not remember that.  Well, I guess we aren't supposed to think that the sister swapping in the present is as gross as it was in the past since this time around, Laurel and Oliver were done rather than being "on-going."

[nksarmi]

It seems to me that its kind of confusing how long Laurel and Oliver were together.  In the flashbacks when she was pushing for them to move in together (and really, why would he move out of the Queen mansion and into a small apartment with her? did young Ollie seem like that type? young Laurel was oblivious) they were talking about a couple friend of theirs and how long they had been together.  I think Laurel told Ollie they had been together longer than that couple, but I can't remember how long that was.

 

But then, Sara must have been in high school to get grounded from going to that party where Laurel and Oliver finally got together.  I'm not sure how young these party kids were, but that sure makes it sound like Oliver and Laurel were together for at least part of high school and throughout college.  On the other hand, Oliver went to four college and I doubt Laurel did. So maybe they just broke up and got back together every time he dropped out of a school?

 

Yea, the long-term, I've loved you half my life dynamic really seems hard to pair with party boy Ollie who really got around.  So they had to have been on-again / off-again a lot or he was a serial cheater.  I'm not sure either option makes them seem like a good ship.

[lemotomato]

 So first, does anyone remember if Laurel knew about Oliver cheating on her multiple times as of season one?  Again, I feel like she did, but I can't remember why.  Did Oliver apologize for more than just Sara perhaps? 

In season 1, all we knew was that Ollie had cheated on Laurel with Sara. It was implied that he was a womanizer before the island because of the paparazzi footage of him drunk with a woman on each arm, neither of which were Laurel and the mention that he slept with someone's fiancee (Max Fuller?) at their rehearsal dinner. But they didn't say explicitly that he was with Laurel during those instances. It wasn't until season 2 that they doubled down on what a douche Ollie was with Sara's comment about him sleeping with 10 other girls and the baby mama reveal. 

Edited March 17, 2016 by lemotomato

[Morrigan2575]

I think Laurel told Ollie they had been together longer than that couple, but I can't remember how long that was.

They don't specify. Oliver says that Ray and Jean have been together forever and Laurel replies that "we've been together longer".

Incidentally the friends in that S1 conversation were Ray and Jean aka Ray Palmer and Jean Loring a little easter egg that got blown to hell when WB wouldn't give Arrow Blue Beatle.

[statsgirl]

The "We've been together longer than they have" is pretty convincing to me that Oliver and Laurel had been together for longer than two years.  Also, Laurel was applying to law schools which means she would have been in fourth year undergrad.    That suggests they had been dating since high school since I can't see why Playboy Oliver would maintain a platonic friendship with Laurel for two years after high school and then suddenly decide to date her when Sara would have been college age by then, which mixes up the timeline of the party unless she was in a state where you couldn't drink till you're 19 and Quentin held her to that.  (I could see Quentin getting upset at a 16 year old Sara going to a party where there is drinking but at 18 and in college?  Doesn't make sense.

[BkWurm1]

(I could see Quentin getting upset at a 16 year old Sara going to a party where there is drinking but at 18 and in college?  Doesn't make sense.

 

We know that Sara was AWAY at college so we know she couldn't have been in college when the party got raided because otherwise how could she have been grounded for a month?  (Even if it was summer, she'd be over 18 so that whole grounded thing doesn't work so easy)  So yeah, I agree, it had to be pre-high school graduation. 

Edited March 17, 2016 by BkWurm1

[Chaser]

LOL I think the only thing we know for sure is they didn't think any of this through.

[Genki]

Watching the Laurel/Lance scene in 4.15, they talk about Party Boy Oliver getting around "back then" and  Laurel states "It's not that I didn't know he cheated on me" Which on its own is ambiguous, could mean knows now or knew back then, but with the party boy statements, it's feels like they were on and off, most likely because  she knew he cheated.

Edited March 17, 2016 by Genki

[bijoux]

Honestly, I interpreted that interaction as Laurel knowing he cheated after the Gambit. I do actually think she was in denial about it before that. It was kind of hard to keep the shades on after she had solid proof.

 

On a completely unrelated note, it hit me the other day that Felicity going off with Oliver in S3 finale actually made complete sense for her character. Somebody finally chose her first. They started the season with Oliver saying he couldn't be the Arrow and be with her, and then chosing the Arrow. They ended it with him specifically saying he wanted to be with her. It must have been a dizzying feeling for someone who felt like an also-ran since her father had left her and Donna. Some of this comes from information we were given this season, but I feel they've done a good job of connecting her actions to her state of mind.

[kismet]

As nice as her job at PT was and as proud as she was of getting it in s3, it was also never something she actively pursued or verbalized that she wanted. So for me I had no problem with her giving up her job at PT to travel with OQ, because OQ was something that she has wanted for a long time. I would have found it more OUT of character for her to stick around for a job at PT. FS is smart & talented, she could resume her professional career at any time after her summer of fun. But to pass on OQ & the opportunity to be together just feels like something no one would do if they were in love with the person asking to be with them.

[nksarmi]

The only problem I have with Felicity going off with Oliver is how easily she forgave him for his deception and lies and "getting in bed" with Malcolm Merlyn and all of that.  But I can excuse it as an in-character moment if she was just so happy to have him back that she back-burnered all of that and if she thought that with him not being the Arrow, all the secrets and lies would go away.

 

However, I really would like them to circle back and address those issues now. I hate the BM angst because it's just so dumb, but if they use it as a moment of growth between Oliver and Felicity - I will accept the silver lining.

[kismet]

The only problem I have with Felicity going off with Oliver is how easily she forgave him for his deception and lies and "getting in bed" with Malcolm Merlyn and all of that.  But I can excuse it as an in-character moment if she was just so happy to have him back that she back-burnered all of that and if she thought that with him not being the Arrow, all the secrets and lies would go away.

 

However, I really would like them to circle back and address those issues now. I hate the BM angst because it's just so dumb, but if they use it as a moment of growth between Oliver and Felicity - I will accept the silver lining.

Since there was only a few minutes left in the episode, I will forgive FS for not putting OQ through the ringer for some of his mistakes with s3. I have a feeling a few of those hours of driving on the road trips or layovers were filled with a lot of truth talking and heartfelt conversations. I don't need to see them, my head canon & fan fanfiction tells me FS & OQ very thoroughly worked through some of those issues. Plus, ARROW writers suck at writing heart to heart talks. Emotionally charged inspirational speeches are their bread & butter. However, well thought out or written heartfelt conversations are just not one of their strengths.

[kismet]

From the news thread

I think Oliver and Diggle have been good this season. And he hasn't propped anyone up. And Quentin and laurel have been good. Thea and Oliver have had some great scenes. So have Thea and Malcolm( though some wtf scenes as well). The only thing missing for me is Thea being more in control of her life and Diggle and Felicity. 

 

I was actually just watching s2 LOA and Ollie is all heart to heart with Sara about secret and lies and he was on the side of they are bad :p But he still wouldn't tell Diggle and Felicity about his 5 years of hell :(

I think they have been good, but not great. The characters and relationships have not been must-see TV or must turn in to see what happens. But that is just my opinion. I have not had a burning desire or need to rewatch a scene outside of O/F. Sure there have been many things I wanted to see with the characters. I have loved reading people's theories here about what they could do with all the characters. However, when I look back at the actual character stories for everyone but O/F in s4, they have been pretty run of the mill. Dig's brother comes back from the dead and we get almost no poignant scenes, we don't even know where he is living. And I think Dig has spent sometime propping up the new members of TA, eps in the field. TQ can stop DD with her bloodlust, she tells nobody important and it goes away conveniently for plot. MM is just being written completely wrong for his character. And LL is barely being written at all.

 

Again, I'm not saying its been bad or horrible. I'm just saying it hasn't been amazing. It hasn't inspired me to tune in every Weds to see what happens to Dig or TQ. Or inspired me to tell my friends to tune it to it. For me the relationships in s4 have been far more superficial than they were in previous seasons. The individual character plots have been weak. They could have gotten me invested if they actually invested in some of the character plots, but they plow through them so quickly, that I know not to get invested in them actually being of consequence. So I guess if I was a media reporter I would not be putting my money on writing about the supporting cast. And as fan of Arrow, I guess I have taken to not really prioritizing the other relationships outside of O/F & OTA. I find myself thinking more about what could have been in TM or MQ had not been killed or if SL had got to stay on ARROW as a recurring star. I think more about what could have been or what could be if they get back on track ~ but the present relationships (outside of O/F) are just mundane for me.

Edited March 17, 2016 by kismet

[nksarmi]

Since there was only a few minutes left in the episode, I will forgive FS for not putting OQ through the ringer for some of his mistakes with s3. I have a feeling a few of those hours of driving on the road trips or layovers were filled with a lot of truth talking and heartfelt conversations. I don't need to see them, my head canon & fan fanfiction tells me FS & OQ very thoroughly worked through some of those issues. Plus, ARROW writers suck at writing heart to heart talks. Emotionally charged inspirational speeches are their bread & butter. However, well thought out or written heartfelt conversations are just not one of their strengths.

 

LOL head canon aside, I can actually believe Felicity was just so happy to have him alive and not in the League and emotionally open to being with her that she skipped over it all and didn't address.  I would like to believe that played a part in her walking away from the relationship now.  Because if she even gets to utter something that goes something like "I have overlooked so much from you because when I look in your eyes I know how much you love me.  But love isn't enough.  You have to not just be there for me, but let me be there for you too.  You need to come to me first, not Barry or Diggle or Thea or Malcolm (said in angry voice).  Trust me.  That's what being all-in means Oliver. I thought you were ready last May - but I was wrong.  Are you really ready now?" then the break up will be worth it (assuming of course nothing else happens - just marry them off already and be done with it!).

Edited March 17, 2016 by nksarmi

[kismet]

LOL head canon aside, I can actually believe Felicity was just so happy to have him alive and not in the League and emotionally open to being with her that she skipped over it all and didn't address.  I would like to believe that played a part in her walking away from the relationship now.  Because if she even gets to utter one line that goes something like "I have overlooked so much from you because when I look in your eyes I know how much you love me.  But love isn't enough.  You have to not just be there for me, but let me be there for you too.  You need to come to me first, not Barry or Diggle or Thea or Malcolm (said in angry voice).  Trust me.  That's what being all-in means Oliver. I thought you were ready last May - but I was wrong.  Are you really ready now?"

In Oliver's defense, he didn't really turn to anyone about the BMD - which was perhaps the biggest problem. Everybody you mentioned found out on their own. Even in timeline 1, he only turned to BA first for DNA confirmation, which I can understand because it would be a little awkward to ask your live-in GF, hopefully fiance to investigate if you have a love child. So I would like to see OQ be able to open up and let FS into his headspace from time to time, especially for the big-time decisions, opportunities and events.

[nksarmi]

In Oliver's defense, he didn't really turn to anyone about the BMD - which was perhaps the biggest problem. Everybody you mentioned found out on their own. Even in timeline 1, he only turned to BA first for DNA confirmation, which I can understand because it would be a little awkward to ask your live-in GF, hopefully fiance to investigate if you have a love child. So I would like to see OQ be able to open up and let FS into his headspace from time to time, especially for the big-time decisions, opportunities and events.

 

Ok but how awkward would it have really been for him to go to Felicity over this? 

 

Oliver: "Felicity, I need to ask you for a favor." 

Felicity notices Oliver is really upset and says reassuringly: "Okay, anything. What do you need?"

Oliver: "Ok but you need to understand that I'm not the person I used to be and I regret a lot of the things I did..."

Felicity interrupts: "Oliver, what is it?"

Oliver: "There was a point before the island when I got a girl pregnant.  She said she lost the baby, but I just saw her in Central City and she has a son.  And well, I might not be that good at math, but...."

Felicity: "I understand.  Is there any chance you can get me a hair sample or...."

Oliver hands hair samples to Felicity: "His cap blew off when I asked her about it.  She says he isn't mine, but I took the hair anyway."

Felicity: "Well, we'll know for sure soon enough."

 

There done.  Felicity would totally understand and be fully supportive.  Oliver wouldn't have had to worry about BM's promise because he would have already told Felicity.  No drama, no angst, no fight in any timeline, no breakup.

[AyChihuahua]

At the end of the day, he absolutely turned to other people. He turned initially to Barry for DNA testing, and then listened to Barry again, when Barry said to be in the kid's life. When Thea found out he took her thoughts into consideration. He talked to BOTH Digg AND Mari, who was basically a WORK ACQUAINTANCE, about whether to stay in the kid's life, and by implication ALSO to the actual lying BM for her thoughts, bc it's not as if he can just make her either stay or leave. At no point did he have any meaningful discussion about HIS KID with his FUTURE WIFE whose FATHER LEFT HER SUPPOSEDLY TO KEEP HER OUT OF HIS UNSAFE LIFE. I mean I am just so curious whether she could possibly have some GODDAMN insight into the situation?

 

For god's sake, who isn't more important to his life and his decisions than Felicity? The garbage pickup guy? The sous chef at their second favorite restaurant (bc I'm sure he talked to the sous chef at their first favorite restaurant about it.)

 

Oh yeah, Laurel. The person who should, by all rules of normal human behavior, have moved out of his life three+ years ago. That's the one person really in his life whose thoughts and advice matters less than HIS FUTURE WIFE'S.

 

See, I had mostly moved past this bullshit storyline, but every time I think I'm out y'all PULL ME BACK IN.

[BkWurm1]

In Oliver's defense, he didn't really turn to anyone about the BMD - which was perhaps the biggest problem. Everybody you mentioned found out on their own. Even in timeline 1, he only turned to BA first for DNA confirmation, which I can understand because it would be a little awkward to ask your live-in GF, hopefully fiance to investigate if you have a love child. So I would like to see OQ be able to open up and let FS into his headspace from time to time, especially for the big-time decisions, opportunities and events.

 I also personally reject the argument that he didn't really tell anyone; they found out on their own.  That's not how hiding a secret works.  He agreed that no one could know.  When the police figured out on their own (the first time at least) that Oliver was the GA, he most certainly didn't just shrug his shoulders and say, "Well, you got me."  No, he denied it and set a plan in motion to disprove his guilt. 

 

He never denied to Thea or Malcolm that he was William's father.  Thea at least he could have spun it and denied it.  Nope, he confirmed it on little more than her guess. And really, while he didn't confirm what Malcolm said, his lack of denial was pretty evident of a confirmation.  He didn't know for certain what Malcolm really knew or not, he just assumed he had hard confirmation which was made worse when he still did nothing to protect William from MM possible/likely threat. 

 

Barry is a bit trickier since Barry is the one that told him he had a kid but I assumed at that time Barry didn't know what the kid's name was at least, but Barry DID know who Samantha Clayton was to Oliver and that's not info that Barry could have had without Oliver telling him, so yeah, Oliver also told Barry. 

[AyChihuahua]

He also didn't stick his fingers in his ears and belt out show tunes while running away when any of them started to talk to him about it. He not only heard various people's thoughts and opinions, in the sense that his ear canals were not stopped up, he LISTENED. To EVERYONE BUT Felicity. The one person he should have talked to about it.

 

Such a douche.

[kismet]

Ok but how awkward would it have really been for him to go to Felicity over this? 

 

There done.  Felicity would totally understand and be fully supportive.  Oliver wouldn't have had to worry about BM's promise because he would have already told Felicity.  No drama, no angst, no fight in any timeline, no breakup.

See for me there are people I know & trust in my life, value deeply, even love ~ but do not want to share certain embarrassing or regretful things about my past. It's weird, but it does happen. So I can understand it... plus I think in the new timeline there wasn't even a DNA/Hair test, so I'm not sure the conversation with BA even happened... but whatever. For me, I understood his hesitation to not tell her without confirmation & his hesitation to ask her to run the test.

 

I also think you answered your own question in the bold part of your quote above. Part of the reason he could not ask or tell FS, was because it would bust the writers special plan. Their whole entire BM/W plot was really set up as a House of Cards. There were other ways they could have used the BM/W story but they went the stupid on top of stupid route, hence OQ not asking FS. But your conversation is lovely & would probably have happened on a better written show that understood surprise kids can be more that one-dimensional plot devices.

[kismet]

Not denying it when people ask him, is not telling them or confiding in them. Listening to their opinion on the matter is not turning to them. He literally only told 1 person (BA, and even that is questionable with the time wammy). And we all know he was not permitted to ask FS in 415 because the writers could not have gotten their break-up. He did say they were going to talk about it...

 

But I'm done. I respect everyone's opinions about the BMD and frankly I don't feel like defending OQ beyond the few sentences I just dropped. It was a poorly written plot line that writers never bothered to really write with any effort. So really there is no sense of going post to post saying just how horrible OQ was. It was a mistake, he is paying for it now. And at the end of the day, how he handled it was clearly flawed, nobody is saying it was not flawed. I'm just saying I understand some of his choices. It does not seem he ever intentionally sought to hurt FS or lie to her for the fun of it.

[nksarmi]

kismet - you poor thing, you don't need to defend Oliver!

 

I said before I wasn't sure if Oliver was written out of character just for this sequence of events or if he fell back into an old pattern of behavior when "things got rough."  From everything we were shown all season - this was an oddity in how Oliver related to Felicity this season.  However, at any other point in time it would have made sense. So all I'm really saying is IF the writers use it to circle back around to deal with Oliver's tendency to do a number of things (mostly make dumb decisions) that Felicity should take issue with AND they have them address those things and learn from the experience, than I will forgive it. 

 

But for me, this whole thing has just been one dawning realization after another about why the "Oliver had no choice" explanation doesn't work for me. And the more I thought about it, the more I realized if he had just gone to her from the get go - which is what you would want your partner to do - instead of Barry, than he wouldn't have had to make the promise to begin with (or at least it wouldn't have applied to her since she already knew).  So yea, they do have issues to work on.  I hope the show recognizes and addresses it.

 

Otherwise, I just have to file it in the "why the heck hasn't SOMEONE - ANYONE killed Malcolm yet!?!?!?" category of things I don't understand about this show and go with it. :)

 

*** This show really did get SO very lucky with SA and EBR because on paper, I would never support this couple.  In fact, if this plot was played out with other characters/actors - I'd probably stop watching.  Heck, I'm shocked when people say SA isn't a good actor, because honestly, I'm not even sure I'd like Oliver if it wasn't for SA.

Edited March 18, 2016 by nksarmi

[AyChihuahua]

I completely do not care how many times the show, in its supreme idiocy, says Oliver had no choice but to lie to Felicity. Repeated horse shit is still horse shit.

[Genki]

There are 2 reason's I was OK with Oliver going to Barry for the DNA test in the 1st timeline, 1. They were in CC and didn't have ether usual equipment out at the farm, while Barry had his CSI lab. 2. Barry is super fast and could handle the test and still fit in all the crime fighting activity that needed to be done.

 

It was weirdly out of character for Oliver not to confide in/lean on Felicity since he had done so earlier in the season when he was down and doubting himself. *sigh*Stupidcharacterregressionforplot*sigh*

[Password]

When I first saw timeline 1 wherein Oliver decided to first confirm if William was his, I respected it. But looking back now that was his first mistake.

NOTHING in script tells me Oliver was embarrassed by his past and didn't want to talk about it. In fact I'm completely convinced he would've told Felicity if not for Samantha's ultimatum. The show is sticking firmly to this "baby mama made me do it" storyline and I'm holding him to that.

It's just that flimsy.

[ComicFan777]

Did Oliver more readily agree to Samantha's ultimatum in the second timeline (as if he was already considering not telling Felicity beforehand)?

 

In the first timeline, Oliver pleaded with Samantha saying something like there is someone in my life...please don't make me lie to Felicity.

 

In the second timeline, I got the impression that he was already considering lying to Felicity regardless of ultimatum because he readily agreed to the ultimatum the second time around - when she mentioned the ultimatum, I don't remember him saying the line from the first timeline about begging her, I just remember him readily agreed without protest saying something like yeah, I will keep it a secret even from Felicity and then Samantha asked about Felicity and then he said Felicity was a good person.

 

I don't know if he more readily agreed because he was already considering lying to Felicity because of the outcome from the first timeline or what reason, but his reaction to the ultimatum the second time around seemed different to me - as if he was thinking it might be better to hide it from Felicity and the ultimatum came at an opportune time right off the bat.  (Please note: I didn't rewatch 4x8 because it was too utterly awful, so I might have missed the line in the second timeline).  After that episode, it was played off as Oliver wanted to tell Felicity, but ultimatum stopped him. 

Edited March 18, 2016 by ComicFan777

[Password]

I think the timeline picked up after Oliver pleaded with Samantha to not make him lie to Felicity. It happened but we just didn't see it.

[apinknightmare]

I think the timeline picked up after Oliver pleaded with Samantha to not make him lie to Felicity. It happened but we just didn't see it.

 

 

Yeah, they picked up with him agreeing not to tell anyone, so I guess we're to assume everything before that happened the same way it did in the first timeline.

[tv echo]

A Merlance shipper posted her fan encounter with CD and KC at HVFF-Chicago and got their takes on the Tommy/Laurel romance...

When I met with Colin and Katie, I asked them both to write down one word that came to mind when they thought of Laurel and Tommy’s love.
*  *  *
Colin gave me EPIC. Katie gave me PURE. And my Merlance shipping heart just about exploded with FEELS.
 

Colin signed first, so when I showed Katie what he wrote down she smiled, said “of course he would” and I tried not to fangirl too hard. Lol. It was hard. It’s a happy accident that they signed on the other’s profile and not their own.
 

I found Katie’s word choice particularly interesting. Mostly, because I am thinking of Laurel’s relationship with Tommy in comparison to the one she had with Oliver. From my perspective, given the history she had with Oliver I think their love was a bit tainted and weighed down with a lot of hardship. Laurel’s love with Tommy had more of an ease to it, a purity. It was genuine. Which is why it made me so happy when Katie wrote “pure” for her word. I couldn’t agree more.
 

I shared with Colin how bummed I was that they didn’t get to resolve things and Colin said that he feels they did because Tommy loved Laurel. He was able to say it and show her just how much, by giving up his life for hers. He had already forgiven her.

http://smoakqueenfan29.tumblr.com/post/141205577627/my-merlance-shipping-heart

Edited March 18, 2016 by tv echo

[bijoux]

I find this really impressive, even if it's a huge turnabout for KC. I readily support the current interpretation.

[nksarmi]

I really wish she had a chance to play up her relationship with Tommy more or had made the choice to do so.  I loved them as a couple and it would have made so much more sense for her character to be plagued with guilt in season two and that be the reason she turned to drinking (which is my personal head canon but I can't 100% support it with what was shown).  Plus I think it would have made Laurel and Sara's bonding more believable if once Laurel was cleaned up she told Sara that she really was over Oliver, but she was just angry that she slept with him and feels like she betrayed Tommy and never had a chance to make it up to him before he died. Then Laurel telling Sara she was ok with her being with Oliver would have made sense on screen instead of just in my head. :)

 

Of course if I were writing this show, Tommy wouldn't have died at the end of season one and he and Laurel would have been together when Sara came back and got with Oliver.  So Laurel and Sara's sisterly bonding wouldn't have been tainted by Laurel drinking or her being angry about Oliver or anything like that.  Tommy could have died toward the end of the season and Sara could have told Laurel not to give into despair but to fight and that could have been the thing that started her on the boxing/martial arts path that would lead her to picking up Sara's mask in season three.

 

They could have had Oliver's despair at the end of season one just come from so many people dying and a feeling that he failed his father.  Then Felicity and Diggle tell him he didn't fail and the city still needs him, etc....But I don't particularly care for the "I won't kill because of Tommy" plot point anyway.

[bijoux]

I really wish she had a chance to play up her relationship with Tommy more or had made the choice to do so.  I loved them as a couple and it would have made so much more sense for her character to be plagued with guilt in season two and that be the reason she turned to drinking (which is my personal head canon but I can't 100% support it with what was shown).  Plus I think it would have made Laurel and Sara's bonding more believable if once Laurel was cleaned up she told Sara that she really was over Oliver, but she was just angry that she slept with him and feels like she betrayed Tommy and never had a chance to make it up to him before he died. Then Laurel telling Sara she was ok with her being with Oliver would have made sense on screen instead of just in my head. :)

 

Of course if I were writing this show, Tommy wouldn't have died at the end of season one and he and Laurel would have been together when Sara came back and got with Oliver.  So Laurel and Sara's sisterly bonding wouldn't have been tainted by Laurel drinking or her being angry about Oliver or anything like that.  Tommy could have died toward the end of the season and Sara could have told Laurel not to give into despair but to fight and that could have been the thing that started her on the boxing/martial arts path that would lead her to picking up Sara's mask in season three.

 

They could have had Oliver's despair at the end of season one just come from so many people dying and a feeling that he failed his father.  Then Felicity and Diggle tell him he didn't fail and the city still needs him, etc....But I don't particularly care for the "I won't kill because of Tommy" plot point anyway.

 

Since KC is on record saying that Tommy took advantage of Laurel, I feel a lot of it had to do with her choices.

 

Would Sara really have hooked up with Oliver when she did if she didn't feel rejected by Laurel? I'm not saying it's impossible, but I am heavily leaning towards no.

 

And while the no kill rule is extreme, I am a fan of Tommy having such a great impact on Oliver and significantly shaping his whole journey from then on.

[nksarmi]

Since KC is on record saying that Tommy took advantage of Laurel, I feel a lot of it had to do with her choices.

 

Would Sara really have hooked up with Oliver when she did if she didn't feel rejected by Laurel? I'm not saying it's impossible, but I am heavily leaning towards no.

 

And while the no kill rule is extreme, I am a fan of Tommy having such a great impact on Oliver and significantly shaping his whole journey from then on.

 

I just prefer the moral debates about when it's right to kill as opposed to not killing at all.  Like over on Legends, Rip ordered Sara to kill Stein if they couldn't recover him rather than let Firestorm fall into the hands of the 1980s Soviet Union.  Snart told her they would find another way and talked her out of it.  I mean those sequences had some delicious moral undertones that was very enjoyable for me to see played out.  In an upcoming episode (Legends spoiler):

I believe they will debate the rightness or wrongness of killing a monster before he became the monster (a teen I believe).  That's meaty.

.

 

The "no kill" rule is very black and white and kind of makes them have to write around things in unbelievable ways.  I wish Tommy's death had affected Oliver in some other way - like making sure he let the people he loved most know the truth of who he is or not wasting time believing he would "hang up the hood" someday so he tried to live as both Oliver and Arrow.  Or maybe just being more willing to talk about what happened while he was on the island because he never let Tommy get to know the "new" him.  Just something besides "no kill, ever."

Edited March 18, 2016 by nksarmi

[dtissagirl]

I think it was necessary for Oliver to go on the no-kill rule in S2 for the sake of his own mind. He was a soldier in S1. A one man army fighting a war *that he lost*. So something had had to change -- but more so: something he could control had to change. Not killing, finding another way, was part of that.

 

But even so, he has chosen to kill twice since them -- the Count in S2, Ra's in S3. And both those times were portrayed as very symbolic, with Oliver coming to the decision to kill when all other possible options fell through. When he told Felicity "there was no choice to make", it meant he finally understood that killing was a choice, and not anymore the default soldier-thinking he had in S1. Not killing Slade consolidated the new mindset.

 

I mean, he even chose to kill Ra's twice, in 309 and 323, it just happened that he got killed instead the first time.

 

And really, stepping back and looking at the show from the outside, the no-kill rule really only applies to Malcolm since S2. And that has very little to do with Oliver and much to do with Barrowman.

Edited March 18, 2016 by dtissagirl

[nksarmi]

Well I think they have been telling us things like Diggle used rubber bullets against the LoA and Oliver never lethally wounds anyone.  I mean, it would be better if they didn't talk about it at all.  After all, to me Oliver not killing Slade makes sense.  Slade was his friend and one of the reasons he survived on the island for so long.  He taught him to fight.  They were close and Slade went nuts because of something Oliver did to him (yes, it was an attempt to save his life, but Oliver is still the one that gave him the Mirukuru).  So I can see multiple reasons why Oliver wouldn't want to kill Slade even if he did need to defeat him.  That same is just not true of other characters - Malcolm in particular (unless they use Tommy as an excuse for that, but they haven't yet).

 

But I think they have been talking about it as a way to justify the nonsensical fact that Malcolm is still alive and wandering around freely.  I would have preferred it if Oliver dropped him in a prison somewhere and he escaped to the way things have gone down.  If Malcolm is the "he" Felicity was talking about in the flashfoward - well it's about freakin' time!

Edited March 18, 2016 by nksarmi

[dtissagirl]

Yeah, like I said -- the no-kill rule as it stands right now only applies to Malcolm.

 

And actually, I forgot about Vandal Savage. It was a group decision, but Oliver was a-okay with killing him too this season.

 

I kind of don't care to apply the no-kill rule to unnamed minions, because the show certainly doesn't. I don't care if Dig and Thea are killing Ghosts or not, because they don't care to show IF they are or not. Felicity and Diggle bombed a bunch of prison guards in Russia at the height of the no-kill rule being enforced. It's irrelevant. The no-kill rule only applies to named characters -- possibly even only to DC Comics' villain vault named characters.

Edited March 18, 2016 by dtissagirl

[Chaser]

I'd say the no-kill rule only applies to Big Bads. Malcom, Slade, DD. Those are the ones they will argue over. The one and done ones not so much.

[AyChihuahua]

Well I think they have been telling us things like Diggle used rubber bullets against the LoA and Oliver never lethally wounds anyone.  I mean, it would be better if they didn't talk about it at all.  After all, to me Oliver not killing Slade makes sense.  Slade was his friend and one of the reasons he survived on the island for so long.  He taught him to fight.  They were close and Slade went nuts because of something Oliver did to him (yes, it was an attempt to save his life, but Oliver is still the one that gave him the Mirukuru).  So I can see multiple reasons why Oliver wouldn't want to kill Slade even if he did need to defeat him.  That same is just not true of other characters - Malcolm in particular (unless they use Tommy as an excuse for that, but they haven't yet).

 

But I think they have been talking about it as a way to justify the nonsensical fact that Malcolm is still alive and wandering around freely.  I would have preferred it if Oliver dropped him in a prison somewhere and he escaped to the way things have gone down.  If Malcolm is the "he" Felicity was talking about in the flashfoward - well it's about freakin' time!

Everyone always forgets poor Cyrus Gold. And all the blown-up Russians. And all the Mirakuru soldiers Oliver was 100% planning to kill by dumping a city block on them, but it was cool bc "they're not human." Until suddenly they were and "nobody dies tonight."

 

Soooooooo inconsistent. Just kill the really bad dudes and chill out about it, Oliver. Some ppl just need killing. Seriously, everyone knows Slade will eventually escape and try to kill Felicity, EXCEPT for MB's issues with the show and the show's issues with him. And also, and I know it's unfair to inject reality into the show's BS pseudo-philosophical moments, but Slade's attack on the city didn't happen bc Oliver tried to kill Slade instead of cure him...it happened bc Oliver didn't shove the arrow in hard enough to pierce Slade's brain. So, like, kill BETTER, Oliver.

[nksarmi]

LOL - "So, like kill BETTER, Oliver" should be the theme for season five. :)

[AyChihuahua]

LOL - "So, like kill BETTER, Oliver" should be the theme for season five. :)

I'm a very pragmatic person. If you're going to kill someone, make sure they're dead. How many times now has Oliver "killed" someone, only for them to turn up alive later. For a badass vigilante, his killin' skills are subpar.

 

I also have exactly zero patience for all the pseudo-philosophical bullshit this show throws at its audience. If Oliver would stop with the "someone once told me..." bullshit, he would immediately gain ten IQ points.

[nksarmi]

By the way, I've seen a lot of comments in the social media / media threads that some people think "olicity" is killing the show and honestly - I don't think that's true.  I think it more centers around the "no kill" rules as they nonsensically try to apply it.  I don't mean to say that guys can't express what they really don't like OR that all guys just want to see killing.  However, judging by my SO's comments - guys DO want to see Oliver kick ass again.

 

It doesn't have to be Oliver killing per say, but they have really watered Oliver down this season.  So much so that my 14 year old was all like "How can 50 year old Oliver still move like that when present day Oliver can barely fight anymore?" when he saw the Legends episode set in 2046.

 

I think the fact that they have watered Oliver down because so many people are in the field now at the exact same time that Oliver is going through relationship drama with Felicity makes people think that she has made him less of a badass somehow.  When in reality, elements of "olicity" have been in the show since season two and people didn't really complain about it. 

 

I strongly suspect that if/when the show returns Oliver to "badass" status, a lot of guys won't mind "olicity" so much. I also think they only think Oliver is better with "one of the Canaries" because both sisters are now fighters - so of course they equate that to propping up Oliver's badassness rather than weakening him.  Perhaps that's why it has to be Felicity of all people who tells him to start kicking ass and taking names again - so people can realize that Oliver can be a badass and be with her too.

[dtissagirl]

The idea that Felicity has emasculated Oliver comes from a gross misogynist place. It's what drives this [dumbass stupid] rationalization that Oliver is a lesser fighter now because he's also having romantic feelings at the same time.

 

But more importantly -- there's no indication whatsoever that the showrunners/writers believe Felicity lessens Oliver in any way. On the contrary, the entire romance storyarc they've done with O/F is built upon Felicity making Oliver better.