Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[looptab]

Let's just hope we get rid of Poppy by the end of this season and she doesn't appear in season5.

[kismet]

Yes because as social a person as OQ is, I see no reason why he is willingly hanging out with Poppy. Him hanging out with her has really dropped my opinion of him. Or at least his taste in companions.

Seriously, Poppy needs to go like 3 months ago.

I feel like I'm more onboard with a withholding OQ, than I am with an OQ partnership with Poppy. At least that makes sense to me. Unless he has some secret masterplan that he needs her around for. And if that was the case, the writers need to get around to telling the audience why Poppy is so important.

Edited December 29, 2015 by kismet

[bijoux]

I don't see guys being intimidated by Joanna at all. She projected warmth and seemed very approachable in all her appearances.

Would people have noticed that Oliver was circling her?  After their initial meeting, I can think of only two scenes where he came to consult her at QC:  about the Royal Flush gang; and the sports drink in the syringe?

 

There were the "treasure hunt" security fob which lead to the promise of a bottle of red wine, and Malcolm's arrow with the 'Felicity, you are remarkable' exchange. I feel like there were more but these are the ones I remember off the bat.

[Password]

If someone was keeping track of Felicity (i.e. someone who really liked her) I reckon they would definitely pick up on OQ visiting her. It happened enough times IMO.

ETA: I just realised how creepy "keeping track of" sounds. I so didn't mean it in a weird way. Blame Ray for this.

Edited December 29, 2015 by Password

[wonderwall]

Why wouldn't people notice Oliver, a playboy (according to the world) who doesn't work at QC actually going to QC to visit some random IT girl? He has no business visiting Felicity so many times tbh and with Oliver's reputation I'd understand why people would jump to people believing Oliver and Felicity being involved in some capacity. I learned in offices that news can spread rather quickly especially when someone of Oliver's status is involved. 

[johntfs]

Would people have noticed that Oliver was circling her?  After their initial meeting, I can think of only two scenes where he came to consult her at QC:  about the Royal Flush gang; and the sports drink in the syringe.

 

I think it's highly likely that they would have noticed.  Consider the situation.  Felicity is one of (presumably) many IT workers just in that building and she's suddenly getting a lot of high-level interest thrown her way between helping Walter and doing favors for Oliver.  The conversation with the sports drink in the syringe took place in public.  What are people really more likely to conclude about that situation?

 

A: Apparently Oliver Queen is The Hood and he's on the trail of crime.

B: Apparently Oliver is making up lame excuses to encounter Felicity as he moves in for the romantic "kill."

 

I don't know if the show gets more into it in the second season, but figure Felicity's closer association with Oliver and joining "Team Arrow" probably came at a cost to her reputation among her co-workers.  She probably went from "Felicity?  She's really smart." to "Felicity?  Yeah, she's fucking the boss's son."

[quarks]

If my count is correct, Oliver came by to consult with Felicity five times before crawling into her car, and a couple of those consultations included more than one visit. I'd say her coworkers definitely thought he was at the very least checking her out, especially given his pre-island reputation and his public insistence, in episode 2, that he was unqualified to do any work for Queen Consolidated and therefore wouldn't be working there. 

[way2interested]

If my count is correct, Oliver came by to consult with Felicity five times before crawling into her car, and a couple of those consultations included more than one visit. I'd say her coworkers definitely thought he was at the very least checking her out, especially given his pre-island reputation and his public insistence, in episode 2, that he was unqualified to do any work for Queen Consolidated and therefore wouldn't be working there. 

Ha! Not to mention in episode 2, he leered at a blonde girl in a low ponytail who wore glasses. Maybe they thought Oliver had a new type.

 

But for real, I always had a slight curiosity at how the public eye viewed Oliver and Felicity's relationship. I mean, Walter seemed to think their friendship was fine and logical, but Moira, Thea, and Laurel hardly seemed to recognize the fact that Oliver, Diggle, and Felicity even knew each other, even though they spent a large time of 114-212 together. It's one of the reasons why I wanted scenes with these other characters and Diggle and Felicity, because I wanted insight into who they thought these people were in Oliver's life. I mean, I honestly wondered during 223 what Laurel even thought was going on with Oliver and Slade talking about the woman that Oliver loved with Felicity.   

[bethy]

Felicity was played early on as being quasi-average looking and nerdy, but...she ain't. 

 

True. Because in Hollywood glasses/ponytail equals tomboy/nerd equals undateable. And when they started to move Felicity into love interest territory they wanted her to lose those two things. I love that EBR fought for Felicity to keep both. 

[Chaser]

Ha! Not to mention in episode 2, he leered at a blonde girl in a low ponytail who wore glasses. Maybe they thought Oliver had a new type.

But for real, I always had a slight curiosity at how the public eye viewed Oliver and Felicity's relationship. I mean, Walter seemed to think their friendship was fine and logical, but Moira, Thea, and Laurel hardly seemed to recognize the fact that Oliver, Diggle, and Felicity even knew each other, even though they spent a large time of 114-212 together. It's one of the reasons why I wanted scenes with these other characters and Diggle and Felicity, because I wanted insight into who they thought these people were in Oliver's life. I mean, I honestly wondered during 223 what Laurel even thought was going on with Oliver and Slade talking about the woman that Oliver loved with Felicity.

Some of my favorite fics are Third Person POV (I think that is what it's called), because I'm so curious.

Interestingly, someone mentioned Helena and Laurel gave Felicity the same look at first meeting. Kind of an appraisal.

[quarks]

 Moira, Thea, and Laurel hardly seemed to recognize the fact that Oliver, Diggle, and Felicity even knew each other, even though they spent a large time of 114-212 together. 

 

Moira hired Diggle in the first place, and he at one point was chauffeuring her around, so she was aware of him as at least the help. When Felicity showed up at the hospital, Moira did say, "Who is this?"  My guess is that Moira was too distracted by Walter's disappearance and trying to get various Starling City businesspeople assassinated to pay much attention to the office gossip about her son and the cute IT girl at first, but she was definitely aware of - and not entirely approving of - Felicity by episode 208.  By episode 213, she stated that she knew how Felicity felt about Oliver, but seems to have believed that Oliver didn't reciprocate those feelings - a belief shared by at least some of the fandom at that point, so it's hard to criticize Moira for getting that one wrong.

 

With Laurel - in season one she was apparently not stopping by Verdant all that often, and never went to QC, so she had no reason to meet Felicity until the end of the season, where her response was to give Felicity a very appraising look.  She then apparently rarely ran into Felicity - Laurel didn't come to Moira's welcome home party, for instance - but did know that Felicity was Oliver's EA by episode 212. She seems to have thought of Diggle as just Oliver's driver until the end of season two.

 

With Thea - season three suggested that both Oliver and Felicity went out of their way to conceal their relationship/friendship from Thea, though it's a bit odd that Thea, the manager of Verdant, didn't notice Felicity going in and out of the place and occasionally conspiring with the rest of Team Arrow at the bar.  She definitely thought of Diggle as just Oliver's bodyguard/driver at least as late as the end of season two.

[dtissagirl]

I don't think it was done on purpose, but it feels like they went out of their way to make Diggle and Felicity into "Oliver's people" in the first two seasons, and that the way to do that was to keep them pretty separated from the people who knew pre-island Oliver. Oliver's two worlds couldn't mix and match too much in S1-S2, I guess.

 

In hindsight, that wasn't their best idea. Laurel and Thea's relationship with Dig and Felicity NOW still feels weird [especially the bizarre thing of Felicity and Thea barely talking to each other], because the writing kept them apart for so long before.

[Chaser]

They carried that separation into S3. Thea barely interacted with them until the end of the season. Laurel got more interaction but it was weirdly sporadic. She spent most of the time only talking to Oliver. I think the first actual conversation she had with Felicity or Diggle was 3x10. Then after Oliver came back she was half there and half not, missing at all the important parts (both personal moments and plot moments). Oliver joins up with the league and its Laurel/Nyssa in one group and the others in another.

It was weird writing.

[Password]

It's weird writing that in hindsight I'm grateful for. I like that Felicity and Diggle were so separate from everyone else (in seasons 1 & 2) because it showcased the enormous difference between how he was around people he had to "act" with and those he trusted fully. Season 1 and 2 were OK on the interaction front because of the separation.

But season 3 really should've had more integration because since Moira died, many of the boundaries or barriers had been broken down. Laurel finally knew, and the Queen siblings were reconciled. We were never shown curiosity on Laurel or Thea's part about Oliver's 2 partners. As such any interaction seemed awkward or inorganic ie Laurel and Felicity.

[way2interested]

Overall, I liked the initial separation between them, because it worked with Oliver's tendency to separate his lives. However, it did give me some expectations for whenever the worlds would collide.

 

It was just strange to me how they always interacted, though. Like, I couldn't really place what Laurel and Thea thought about Diggle and Felicity whenever they did interact. You've got Diggle and Felicity who knew how important these people were to Oliver's life, but Laurel and Thea would always have no idea. Laurel, when initially with the group, recognized that they were his partners, even though she had never seen them really be Team Arrow. Then her interactions with the team do feel somewhat odd, as if they are just workplace associates and not really friends (although I actually did like the scene with Diggle and Laurel in 407, I just wasn't in the mood for it because Laurel's the one who resurrected Sara this time in the first place). So I kind of wonder if Laurel just places them in her mind as "Oliver's friends" and "part of the team" rather than people that she genuinely cares about as her own friends. 

 

Thea, when initially with the group, seemed to have a semblance on what was going on but still had no idea of what extent these people were to each other. I kind of feel bad because Thea's first sight of the team was them trying to deal with Laurel and all of them being rather cold towards Oliver as compared to Laurel's first view of the team which was two people who were willing to go into the fray with Oliver. Not to mention even though she knows the secret in 313, she doesn't even talk to Diggle or Felicity until 321, even though she is in scenes with them before then. Weirdly enough, I feel like Thea's friendly enough with Diggle and Felicity, since she did save Diggle's life twice, visited his house, teased Felicity, wanted Oliver and Felicity to be engaged, and even seemed to plan the second tree lighting with Felicity behind Oliver's back (although thinking about it, I don't get as confused as to why she might not have seen anything between Oliver and Felicity, given her first introduction to Felicity was as Oliver's friend, and her first intro to the team had Felicity basically yelling at Oliver in which shortly afterword she dated Ray and brought him to the wedding.) To me, she seems to see Diggle and Felicity as friends, or at least Diggle as a friend and Felicity as her brother's girlfriend (which isn't bad per se, I've become close friends with people who were just my friends' significant others). It's just that the severe lack of scenes between these characters makes the friendships there seem not fully there either.

 

Basically, Laurel's had the scenes with Diggle and Felicity, but none of the friendship vibes, while Thea has had the friendly scenes but not as many substantial scenes. Neither of them really have the build-up or the background to be friends with these people, so the present story is just trying to present all of the team as really friendly with each other, when it's not all the way there. I mean, when we're 80 episodes in, and I still get an excitement from hearing Thea merely say Felicity's name in a promo, I sadly don't think the friendship is there as much as the writers would like me to think.

[wonderwall]

I think the problem I've had with Laurel's scenes with Diggle and Felicity is that instead of having friendly scenes, they jumped straight to them having intense scenes (with almost zero buildup) which only real friends who know you share... Like Diggle's scene with her about his brother as well as Felicity's scene with Laurel when she told her that thing I never want to repeat ever about Sara/ Felicity going to Laurel and breaking down when she told her that Oliver wasn't coming back. 

 

It went from Laurel seeming like a colleague to her seeming like their best friend. 

 

With Thea it's a bit different. She's had some friendly scenes with Diggle/Felicity, but the show isn't trying so hard to make us believe that she is Diggle/Felicity's best friend to the point where they confide in her like they do with Laurel. It's less forceful than the way they're integrating Laurel by trying to make the audience believe Laurel is everyone's best friend and that she's the one that people confide in when they're down.

 

I genuinely liked it when Felicity asked if her and Laurel were favor friends in 303. It made me believe that the show might do that friendship justice, but instead, after Laurel asked Felicity to do her a solid, she forgot about Felicity until Laurel found some use for Felicity again when she wanted to go out and fight crime as BC. It was such a wasted potential. 

 

As for Laurel and Diggle, again there was zero build up to their friendship. We don't know why they like one another, we don't see them having a lot of friendly scenes, we don't see Diggle being amused when Laurel says she's hungry on a stake out, they're ALWAYS business so it just makes it hard for me to believe that they're more than just colleagues. 

 

Now every scene between LL/Diggle or LL/Felicity where Diggle or Felicity confide in LL, it feels false and takes me out of the moment because it makes me think "Gosh that scene would've been much better if it was actually between two established good friends". 

Edited December 29, 2015 by wonderwall

[kismet]

Ha! Not to mention in episode 2, he leered at a blonde girl in a low ponytail who wore glasses. Maybe they thought Oliver had a new type.

 

But for real, I always had a slight curiosity at how the public eye viewed Oliver and Felicity's relationship. I mean, Walter seemed to think their friendship was fine and logical, but Moira, Thea, and Laurel hardly seemed to recognize the fact that Oliver, Diggle, and Felicity even knew each other, even though they spent a large time of 114-212 together. It's one of the reasons why I wanted scenes with these other characters and Diggle and Felicity, because I wanted insight into who they thought these people were in Oliver's life. I mean, I honestly wondered during 223 what Laurel even thought was going on with Oliver and Slade talking about the woman that Oliver loved with Felicity.   

I've always wondered what people thought of OQ visiting FS so much in s1. The only ones that were probably surprised by her job change to EA was probably FS. Because from an external perspective it certainly looked like OQ liked to spend time around FS.

 

More importantly, I have always wondered who recommended FS to OQ for the laptop in the first place. Unless he did some research on her background (which I'm assuming he did, despite the fact he missed her Hacktivist Days), there is nothing in her general IT job that seemed like she would be who he could turn to for a shot-up laptop. So I have always wondered if perhaps Walter recommended her, which is why he was not surprised by their friendship. But then again, why would OQ turn to Walter when he seemed to not really trust or interact with him is beyond me. It's one of the mysteries of Arrow I guess why OQ turned to FS in the first place. As much as I want to know the answer, part of me doesn't want the show to address it because every time they try to address stuff from the past they have a tendency to mess it up. And I just don't want them to mess it up. I may not know the answer, but sometimes ignorance is bliss.

[hogwash]

I think the problem I've had with Laurel's scenes with Diggle and Felicity is that instead of having friendly scenes, they jumped straight to them having intense scenes (with almost zero buildup) which only real friends who know you share... Like Diggle's scene with her about his brother as well as Felicity's scene with Laurel when she told her that thing I never want to repeat ever about Sara/ Felicity going to Laurel and breaking down when she told her that Oliver wasn't coming back. 

 

/snip

 

I think the show just completely forgot how and why Felicity and Diggle's approval and endorsement worked with Sara and Barry in their rush to have Laurel and Thea suited up and integrated into Team Arrow. Barry and Sara worked on their own as characters and didn't need Diggle and Felicity to be on board to sell them to the audience. Diggle and Felicity liking them was only part of the reason they worked so well in 2A. Just like Felicity and Diggle disliking Helena wasn't the only reason people bought her as an antagonist. Felicity and Diggle's approval didn't mean anything because Laurel and Thea were not new characters like Barry and Sara. Laurel and Thea were problematic/disliked characters getting reworked for the 2nd/3rd time.

 

They skipped all the steps and building that went into Diggle and Felicity's relationships with Barry and Sara. There needed to be several conversations and interactions between "favor friends??" and "don't listen to Oliver. Putting on a costume and fighting bad guys is a great idea." Plus the weirdness of seeing your highly troubled sister get murdered in front of you and deciding to follow in her footsteps with 1/8 of the training. They barely bothered with Thea. Roy just gave her his costume and that was that. The focus was on getting Thea/Laurel in costume so they took shortcuts.

 

Thea barely interacts with Diggle and Felicity so there's an opportunity there but they're kinda stuck with what they did with Laurel (snark). 

Edited December 29, 2015 by hogwash

[way2interested]

I think the show just completely forgot how and why Felicity and Diggle's approval and endorsement worked with Sara and Barry in their rush to have Laurel and Thea suited up and integrated into Team Arrow. Barry and Sara worked on their own as characters and didn't need Diggle and Felicity to be on board to sell them to the audience. Diggle and Felicity liking them was only part of the reason they worked so well in 2A. Just like Felicity and Diggle disliking Helena wasn't the only reason people bought her as an antagonist. Felicity and Diggle's approval didn't mean anything because Laurel and Thea were not new characters like Barry and Sara. Laurel and Thea were problematic/disliked characters getting reworked for the 2nd/3rd time.

 

They skipped all the steps and building that went into Diggle and Felicity's relationships with Barry and Sara. There needed to be several conversations and interactions between "favor friends??" and "don't listen to Oliver. Putting on a costume and fighting bad guys is a great idea." Plus the weirdness of seeing your highly troubled sister get murdered in front of you and deciding to follow in her footsteps with 1/8 of the training. They barely bothered with Thea. Roy just gave her his costume and that was that. The focus was on getting Thea/Laurel in costume so they took shortcuts.

 

Thea barely interacts with Diggle and Felicity so there's an opportunity there but they're kinda stuck with what they did with Laurel (snark). 

I agree. Part of the problem with this, it seems, is that they seem to want to use relationships to build support for the characters instead of placing story or thought into building the actual relationship.

 

At least we've got good relationships on the show in general that were shown to develop over time (if not ignored sometimes, *Diggle/Felicity*), like OTA, Oliver and Thea, and to a lesser extent, Lance and Oliver. It just bothers me that now that the characters are pretty much all on the same boat, they still all can't have a great organic friendship feel to them as a team. I want an instance when I feel like a drink among all of them would be earned, or that of course they would all go to Diggle's wedding. I'm still holding on, because I do like Thea's interactions with Diggle and Felicity (no matter how few and short they are. Seriously, I'm pretty sure that Malcolm's directly talked to Diggle and Felicity more than Thea has.)

[bijoux]

I've always wondered what people thought of OQ visiting FS so much in s1. The only ones that were probably surprised by her job change to EA was probably FS. Because from an external perspective it certainly looked like OQ liked to spend time around FS.

 

More importantly, I have always wondered who recommended FS to OQ for the laptop in the first place. Unless he did some research on her background (which I'm assuming he did, despite the fact he missed her Hacktivist Days), there is nothing in her general IT job that seemed like she would be who he could turn to for a shot-up laptop. So I have always wondered if perhaps Walter recommended her, which is why he was not surprised by their friendship. But then again, why would OQ turn to Walter when he seemed to not really trust or interact with him is beyond me. It's one of the mysteries of Arrow I guess why OQ turned to FS in the first place. As much as I want to know the answer, part of me doesn't want the show to address it because every time they try to address stuff from the past they have a tendency to mess it up. And I just don't want them to mess it up. I may not know the answer, but sometimes ignorance is bliss.

 

I always just assumed Walter since he asked for Felicity's help as well. I honestly didn't give it more thought than that. But I could see Oliver casually bringing up having some problems with his computer during a family meal. The pa would have cast a sarcastic remark, Moira would probably have offered to puchase a new one (or six) along with the person to operate it, and Walter would come out with the logical solution. The management has an eye on Felicity Smoak. Go see her.

 

True. Because in Hollywood glasses/ponytail equals tomboy/nerd equals undateable. And when they started to move Felicity into love interest territory they wanted her to lose those two things. I love that EBR fought for Felicity to keep both.

Really? I didn't know about that. That's great on EBR's part.

[BkWurm1]

Just today rewatched the episode where they introduce Sara to the team and not only does she get the big introductions right from Oliver, he then leaves her in their care so that they have chances to personally interact.  Not big scenes but the ones that allow a personal connection to form.  Like Sara thanking Felicity for not treating her like who she really was.  Or even when Diggle tried to insist she couldn't go out alone and she calmly explained that she could put him down like a kindergartner. It was antagonistic but also somehow respectful. 

 

Even when the show just in introducing Sara to the audience, it took time and let her have this wonderful quiet moments, like when she was listening to her father talk to Oliver on the other side of the door or when she was looking at Oliver's family photos. That's not even counting the very emotionally revealing stuff with Sin and then later her father.   It was all about seeing her emotions, letting us get inside of her head. No wonder I have this very protective feeling towards Sara.  They did a wonderful job showing us how broken she was even while showing her strength and fighting power. 

 

With Laurel they did spend lots of time showing us her emotions too but they IMO were too often at odds with what I felt she should be feeling or how she should be acting. 

Edited December 29, 2015 by BkWurm1

[dtissagirl]

I guess it was super hard for them to write relationships that rang true, when Laurel's their most plot-driven character, and that for the entirety of S3, Thea was turned into a puppet for Malcolm to manipulate, and a plot device to cause Oliver all the manpain. Even this season's Thea-Laurel interaction was derailed by Laurel's crazy bananapants plot of doom, and Thea was relegated to being the plot device for Malcolm's "ok" in bringing Sara back. They don't feel like real friends because they are plot-driven by the external need of resurrecting Sara. You can't create organic relationships if the writing-for-plot takes over the narrative.

Plus: for all that I hate the dumbass flash forward grave, I also think it's not a bad idea for Arrow to get rid of one of the regular characters. If only because it might [hopefully? All fingers crossed] fix the terribad pacing issues the show has. One less character to plot could mean spending more time developing the peripheral relationships.

But also, they really only needed one episode for me to think Lance and Diggle should partner up more often, so maybe the problem REALLY is these idiots don't know how to write women being friends, and relationships from a female pov.

[BkWurm1]

Plus: for all that I hate the dumbass flash forward grave, I also think it's not a bad idea for Arrow to get rid of one of the regular characters. If only because it might [hopefully? All fingers crossed] fix the terribad pacing issues the show has. One less character to plot could mean spending more time developing the peripheral relationships.

 

Getting rid of a character to fix the pacing problem only works if they get rid of the character that typically causes the pacing problem. 

 

So yeah.  :(

[wonderwall]

I think what could've helped is if the writers actually TRIED with Team B. They could've tried to make them look friendly, they could've tried to show the audience that during the 6 months of break, they became a team. Instead, what we saw was that Team B weren't on the same page at all and took the most opportune moment to go behind Digg's back to bring back Oliver/Felicity. What I saw was that the writers couldn't WAIT to drop Team B like a hot potato. It seemed like they weren't interested in writing them which is why I had a hard time believing in Laurel/Diggle's friendship as well as Thea/Diggle's friendship (although I understand why Diggle/Thea aren't friends considering he's like 20 years older than her). 

 

Putting more focus on Team B could've helped... But now Team Arrowless seems like a distant memory and it's too late for that now. 

[dtissagirl]

Heh. While I believe if they were to get rid of Laurel, about 93.5% of my problems with the show would be solved, I do think the pacing problems go beyond Laurel, and it's more of a structural thing -- the flashbacks compromise the pacing way more than Laurel's crazy plots, and the action scenes often times last longer than necessary [even more so now that they're the ABBA of superheroes] because the show is built around/towards those scenes.

If I believed this upcoming death was a creative decision , then yes, killing Laurel would make the most sense re: rearranging the structure. One less mask to place in stunts, and since she doesn't have any other narrative role, it frees up screentime [since they're never getting rid of of the flashbacks], if only so they can let scenes breathe a little.

Pipe dreams, I know.

[BkWurm1]

I think what could've helped is if the writers actually TRIED with Team B. They could've tried to make them look friendly, they could've tried to show the audience that during the 6 months of break, they became a team. Instead, what we saw was that Team B weren't on the same page at all and took the most opportune moment to go behind Digg's back to bring back Oliver/Felicity. What I saw was that the writers couldn't WAIT to drop Team B like a hot potato. It seemed like they weren't interested in writing them which is why I had a hard time believing in Laurel/Diggle's friendship as well as Thea/Diggle's friendship (although I understand why Diggle/Thea aren't friends considering he's like 20 years older than her). 

 

Putting more focus on Team B could've helped... But now Team Arrowless seems like a distant memory and it's too late for that now. 

Yeah, I completely agree.  I was very surprised by that from the way that the actors and the producers talked the new team up.  They should have found a different way to bring Oliver back.  If nothing else, they should have shown the strength of the new team by having Diggle go with them even though he disagreed.  That would have been a marked departure from how Oliver handled things.

[statsgirl]

I think they have a catch-22 situation when they try to figure out what to do with Team B.  On one hand, they want Oliver off-screen so the new masks can be important, on the other hand they either can't or don't care about writing anything good for Team Arrowless.

 

 

But also, they really only needed one episode for me to think Lance and Diggle should partner up more often, so maybe the problem REALLY is these idiots don't know how to write women being friends, and relationships from a female pov.

Why did it work so well?  Was it the acting?  The writing, which was for two guys?

 

I think the Nyssa/Laurel scenes worked well too, and Diggle/Lyla and of course Diggle/Felicity, but good scenes between non-Oliver pairs are few and far between.

 

But season 3 really should've had more integration because since Moira died, many of the boundaries or barriers had been broken down. Laurel finally knew, and the Queen siblings were reconciled. We were never shown curiosity on Laurel or Thea's part about Oliver's 2 partners. As such any interaction seemed awkward or inorganic ie Laurel and Felicity.

In 3x21, when Thea told Felicity "I never knew about you and my brother", it really emphasized that Thea seemed to have no interest in Oliver's life beyond her. Didn't she ever wonder why he still hung out with his old driver when he could drive himself, or his old EA when he had no job?  Did she ever wonder what he did all day?

 

 

I don't know if the show gets more into it in the second season, but figure Felicity's closer association with Oliver and joining "Team Arrow" probably came at a cost to her reputation among her co-workers.  She probably went from "Felicity?  She's really smart." to "Felicity?  Yeah, she's fucking the boss's son."

Please come here and let us know what you think about season 2 when you've seen it.

[kismet]

I'm gonna give TQ a pass for not knowing about her brother's day to day. I have an older brother and I don't really bother myself with how he spends his days, especially when I was in my early 20s. I chat with him and make sure he is happy & healthy, but who he hangs out with, I don't necessarily bother with that even though I love him. He is my brother and not my friend if that makes sense. I feel like TQ is like that, where she loves her brother very much, but was not really his friend until mid-s3 after the island at the earliest and now in s4. In s 1&2, they were family but not friends. Now I expect more interactions because they are friends and crime-fighting partners. And I feel like the show is giving us those moments, or at least alluding to them when TQ drops lines that implies that her & OQ have talked about something offscreen.

 

As for why SL introduction was good and the interactions were more authentic was that she was being introduced. The audience has already been introduced to TQ & LL. We do not need to be introduced again. So her relationships are evolving. She is growing up, her annoying teenage antics are part of her past, not her present. So every interaction feels more authentic because TQ is taking the effort to evolve her relationships. LL is not evolving, they are just trying on new relationships and hoping one sticks. The writing is just failing her because they keep on trying to tell us LL is a new person, when she is still LL only now she wears leather. All of her character flaws and challenges connecting with the audience still exist despite the leather. They've reduced her role and drop her extra plot lines but she is still LL.

[way2interested]

I'm gonna give TQ a pass for not knowing about her brother's day to day. I have an older brother and I don't really bother myself with how he spends his days, especially when I was in my early 20s. I chat with him and make sure he is happy & healthy, but who he hangs out with, I don't necessarily bother with that even though I love him. He is my brother and not my friend if that makes sense. I feel like TQ is like that, where she loves her brother very much, but was not really his friend until mid-s3 after the island at the earliest and now in s4. In s 1&2, they were family but not friends. Now I expect more interactions because they are friends and crime-fighting partners. And I feel like the show is giving us those moments, or at least alluding to them when TQ drops lines that implies that her & OQ have talked about something offscreen.

 

As for why SL introduction was good and the interactions were more authentic was that she was being introduced. The audience has already been introduced to TQ & LL. We do not need to be introduced again. So her relationships are evolving. She is growing up, her annoying teenage antics are part of her past, not her present. So every interaction feels more authentic because TQ is taking the effort to evolve her relationships. 

Yeah, I honestly don't really have any issues with how they've developed Thea's relationship with the other characters. I've actually pretty much always liked Thea and enjoyed her development throughout the years (despite the fact that she was used as a plot device more than a character in s3), so her development and her relationships feel right to me. The only problem for Thea that I have is that I want more, which is actually a pretty good problem to have, writing-wise. On the other hand, more is also needed, since it's going to make important events feel a little hollow for me regarding Thea because she doesn't have as many big moments with these other characters (I'm slightly nervous about how her reaction to Felicity's injuries is going to feel for me).

 

And these lines that they give to Thea that imply off-screen conversations give me so much more to her relationship with Oliver, I love it. The fact that Thea knew where Oliver and Felicity were living, the fact that Oliver knew that Thea moved out of the loft and why, Thea's immediate thought of Oliver's big announcement being that he proposed to Felicity, Oliver and Thea's synchronicity in battle, they all imply to me that Oliver and Thea do converse and try to sustain the new relationship they regenerated in s3.

[AyChihuahua]

If I believed this upcoming death was a creative decision , then yes, killing Laurel would make the most sense re: rearranging the structure. One less mask to place in stunts, and since she doesn't have any other narrative role, it frees up screentime [since they're never getting rid of of the flashbacks], if only so they can let scenes breathe a little.

What kind of decision do you think it is? Money? Shock value (which sort of fits in as a creative decision)?

Edited December 30, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[wonderwall]

What kind of decision do you think it is? Money? Shock value (which sort of fits in as a creative decision)?

Even if it was about money or shock value, killing of Laurel for either of those reasons makes most sense. 

 

• Money because even though the buyout will be relatively high, Arrow would make higher long term savings considering KCs paycheck must be rather high. And for the work that she does? In which half her screen time isn't even her but her stunt double, she's not worth the money. I'm sure Arrow gets very little return for their investment in LL/KC. 
• Shock value, literally no one thinks it's Laurel because of the comics and the fact that she's BC. So I'm pretty sure everyone would be shocked.
• Creative reasons are that LL has no storyline and you can lift her right out of the story and still not change much but still create enough of an emotional impact on the characters.

[statsgirl]

I'm gonna give TQ a pass for not knowing about her brother's day to day. I have an older brother and I don't really bother myself with how he spends his days, especially when I was in my early 20s. I chat with him and make sure he is happy & healthy, but who he hangs out with, I don't necessarily bother with that even though I love him. He is my brother and not my friend if that makes sense. I feel like TQ is like that, where she loves her brother very much, but was not really his friend until mid-s3 after the island at the earliest and now in s4. In s 1&2, they were family but not friends.

Ordinarily, I would agree because most men in their thirties have jobs and friends and maybe families.  But she is Oliver's only family, Tommy is dead and Oliver doesn't seem to have any other friends,  He also doesn't have a job anymore and lives with his younger sister (not to mention the speeches he gave her about needing to be a family).  In the early s3 episodes she didn't seem to care how Oliver was feeling, which contrasted mightily with Oliver trying to do impossible things to keep her safe.

 

Thea seemed a lot more concerned about Oliver in season 1 when she was being a bratty drunk teenager.  It strikes me as strange.

[AyChihuahua]

Thea seemed a lot more concerned about Oliver in season 1 when she was being a bratty drunk teenager.  It strikes me as strange.

Oliver was just super weird about Thea in S3, while she was relatively normal about him. He was much less weird about her in S1 and S2...didn't love her dating Roy, kept her out of jail, went after Slade when he took her, but not obsessive. He basically had nothing else going on in S3 and was just frigging weird about her. It was all plotty, I get that, but it still makes me uncomfortable. If he were a non-relative obsessed with her his behavior would have been more or less the same as it was. Dude needed a healthy hobby in S3. 

 

I think Thea's always been relatively normal about Oliver. Bratty in S1, a bit exasperated in S2, kind of uninterested in S3. Like a typical late teens/early 20s girl would be about her much older brother.

[catrox14]

Just watching s1 again....and my babies, Oliver and Felicity just don't even know what the are in for yet.  And it's so lovely and I'm all verklempt...and just.......the heart eyes between those idiots existed from the moment Oliver smiled at her and she looked at him like he was so full of shit...HELP.....

Edited December 30, 2015 by catrox14

[bijoux]

What kind of decision do you think it is? Money? Shock value (which sort of fits in as a creative decision)?

 

I know you didn't ask me, but in my book, it's shock factor. Whether they will manage to actually shock anyone is another matter. Still, I think that, along with creating an almost season long tension in waiting for that body to drop, is what fueled this decision.

 

I think Thea's always been relatively normal about Oliver. Bratty in S1, a bit exasperated in S2, kind of uninterested in S3. Like a typical late teens/early 20s girl would be about her much older brother.

 

I found Thea's insistence on why Oliver wasn't Ollie anymore in S1 utterly exasperating at times. What she knew at the time was that he had been stuck alone on a deserted island for five years, left to the elements! Not having speech impediments should have been considered as a huge plus. But it all made sense with Thea's character, plus we also had Moira who was 30 or so years older with the bright idea of having Oliver take hold of the family company a week after his return. I honestly don't know what she was thinking then. And, and the poor dude didn't even get to skip brunch with Carter Bowen. You'd think he'd get at least that after returning from the dead.

 

Just watching s1 again....and my babies, Oliver and Felicity just don't even know what the are in for yet.  And it's so lovely and I'm all verklempt...and just.......the heart eyes between those idiots existed from the moment Oliver smiled at her and she looked at him like he was so full of shit...HELP.....

 

Oh, I'm rewatching S1 again too. I'm finished with Helena's first episodes now and on the one hand, there's a certain vibrancy to the show, on the other, it's noticeably still in the awkward stage of finding its footing. 

 

One thing that I find puzzling is that Thea didn't get a car until her 18th birthday. It's completely surprising, given Moira's proclivity to get her kids anything and everything money can buy. It makes me think that Walter must have been in the mansion before Thea turned 16 and he was the one to put his foot down. Kindly and with class, natch. I don't remember if it was ever stated how long he and Moira were married. If it was, can someone jog my memory?

[johntfs]

 

Please come here and let us know what you think about season 2 when you've seen it.

 

I'm caught up to Season 2 through 2.09.  In terms of Oliver/Felicity, I don't yet see any romantic vibes coming from him toward her.  Oliver seems to be protective of Felicity but also controlling of her as well.  I think he sees her as pretty and "datable" but he's not going to date her because "she's not there for that purpose."  Oliver has constructed a very compartmentalized life for himself.  Felicity is there to get him information of science stuff, not to be a sexual partner, so that's why he's not going to date her.  Or be very enthused when she seeks out other social companionship.  For all that he's mostly shifted his methodology toward being non-lethal, Oliver is still a very mission focused person who still sees Diggle and Felicity in terms of what they bring to his mission.

 

I find myself wishing that Laurel and Felicity would become friends.  I think they'd be good for each other on many levels.

[BkWurm1]

The episode where he gets caught sleeping with Isabel and looks guilty and gives her the "Because of the life I lead it's better not to be with someone I could really care for" speech followed in the next episode with him not just saving her from the Count but sticking three arrows in him and returning to the courthouse pretty shook up are generally looked at as episodes where Oliver was showing his very closely held feelings. Being miffed about her interest and attention given to Barry were also pointed to as hints. 2.10 has a bit more. Still nothing overtly romantic but a lovely scene.

It's mostly very subtle in season two. But fun to watch for. I'm doing a rewatch myself and am just starting on 2.10.

I'd forgotten how compelling the flashbacks were. The difference between now and then is mind boggling.

[bijoux]

I find myself wishing that Laurel and Felicity would become friends.  I think they'd be good for each other on many levels.

Can you expand on how you think the friendship would be beneficial to each?

 

I'd forgotten how compelling the flashbacks were. The difference between now and then is mind boggling.

See? This is what I'm telling you guys. They weren't always made of suck. They used to have Ollie transitioning to Oliver, storylines that were connected to the present timeline and Anatoly! Even before Anatoly, season 1 flashbacks were good. Maybe I'll change my mind on another watch, but I really dug 1x14, which was extremely flashback heavy.

[dtissagirl]

What kind of decision do you think it is? Money? Shock value (which sort of fits in as a creative decision)?

 

Money. I think the decision to announce in the season premiere that they were gonna kill someone in a flash forward is typical Guggie being ~creative~, but the actual WHO is in the grave? Imo, that decision is in the hands of the money people.

[johntfs]

Can you expand on how you think the friendship would be beneficial to each?

 

 

 

They seem to be "compatible opposites" in terms of personality.  Felicity is optimistic, if a bit socially naive and awkward.  She's also very isolated because of her work with Oliver and all his secrets.  Laurel right now is wounded and depressed though more grounded in the world.  I can see Felicity helping Laurel to heal a little and climb out of her depression.  I can see Felicity having somebody to talk to who can help her with her social awareness.  I also have a vision of the two of them at a table talking to each other when they see Oliver approaching and just burst out laughing with him wondering "What's so funny?"

[wonderwall]

This gifset is pretty great at showing how Oliver/Felicity's relationship evolved (only in broad strokes of course)

 

 

 

 

[wonderwall]

A lovely parallel between 309/409 X

 

 

 

[BunsenBurner]

I find it odd that Poppy and Laurel, the supposed loves of OQ, have no on screen chemistry with him. Why does SA have chemistry with everyone but them? Just wondering.

[AyChihuahua]

I find it odd that Poppy and Laurel, the supposed loves of OQ, have no on screen chemistry with him. Why does SA have chemistry with everyone but them? Just wondering.

I find SA to be pretty checked out in the flashbacks generally, and very checked-out in the non-action flashback scenes. I think he's as over it as we are. 

[kismet]

I find SA to be pretty checked out in the flashbacks generally, and very checked-out in the non-action flashback scenes. I think he's as over it as we are.

He is definitely checked out this season. I only saw him invested in the Constantine episode. But I can't blame him. These flashbacks have been boring on every level. I'm actually annoyed they spent the money on cgi shark, when it went no where. Most anticlimactic budget use.

Edited - because after review of post realized that I didn't specify just the flashbacks. I think he has been invested in the present day plots & scenes. This is what happens when you post half asleep. :(

Edited December 31, 2015 by kismet

[wonderwall]

I think that SA has probably been disappointed overall because: 

1. The BM thing didn't pan out as he'd hoped with the audience
2. Oliver is now a wimp compared to what he was in S1
3. Flashbacks suck
4. This season has been less about Oliver who's been put on the backburner

 

At least that isn't affecting his dramatic work. I feel like he's done really well this year in a dramatic sense. He is still wonderful in his scenes with EBR/DR.

Edited December 31, 2015 by wonderwall

[wonderwall]

Another wonderful parallel which makes me sad Moira died. Honestly her relationship with Felicity would've been delicious to unfold. They're so similar yet so fundamentally different

 

 

 

[wonderwall]

I mourn the loss of what could've been

 

 

 

 

[johntfs]

One thing I've noticed about Oliver and his island/post-island sexual partners is that he only seems to get intimate with women he regards as relative equals.  Despite declaring her to be a "partner" in 2.10, I think at this point he still does regard Felicity to be a combination of employee and little sister.

[jay741982]

Scenes like the last two posts have me almost convinced that one of the reasons Oliver fell for Felicity is that she is strong like his mother was. Some guys do fall hard for Women who share traits with their momma