Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[kismet]

Why would you wish the Cane Toad on ANYONE?

Because everybody deserves a chance at happiness & a chance at love:) Also the thought of watching those two acting styles interact might be too hilarious to pass up. And in a non-kidding moment, their interrogation scene was the first time I ever saw either of them actually have a spark of something the whole season that was positive or not repulsive. LL finally seemed less robotic. And RP's smugness actually seemed like he might enjoy verbally sparring with LL. They both had a sparkle in their eyes that was not creepy or over-acted.

[kismet]

Not that I really think it matters, since we are asked to suspend our belief about a lot of things on the show. How they met does not seem like that hard of a truth to believe. It's not that uncommon for upper middle class children to attend prep/high schools. But honestly, LL has been described as very intelligent. I could easily see her getting a scholarship into whatever high school/prep school OQ & TM attended. That being said, DL probably made good money, so she could have also paid the tuition to send her promising girls to a prep/high school with better opportunities.

 

If LL was willing to "help" them with their work I can imagine how they probably kept her around initially & then they truly became friends. It could also explain why SL was invited to the party & LL was not. SL is the cool one & LL is the smart one. Invite the cool one to party & get the smart one to do your work for you. Would also explain why LL was trying to get promoted to being more than just a friend. LL is also very beautiful, so the boys being attracted to her is not a surprise. Add to that OQ & TM are described as charming & fun, so why would LL not be their friends? At the end of the day, they somehow interacted with each other & became a mainstay in each others group of friends.

Edited September 14, 2015 by kismet

[BkWurm1]

How they met does not seem like that hard of a truth to believe.

 

True, but at least for me, I want a timeline to better assess the context in which the "I've loved you for half my life" line was thrown out.  

[Primal Slayer]

Wasn't that line added my Amell?  The writers don't seem to think about the overall story sometimes when keeping certain lines added by the actors.

[kismet]

True, but at least for me, I want a timeline to better assess the context in which the "I've loved you for half my life" line was thrown out.  

Understandable. OQ is born in 1985, so now he is 30, when he said that line they were 29. So 1/2 of their lives would have been 14-15yrs old, perfect timing for high school. Who knows exactly when they started dating or fell in love (if they ever were), but I think he is referencing how long they have been in each others lives. I don't think OQ would do the math back from when they actually started dating. Their anniversaries are probably too numerous too count, not sure his math could calculate that all during a heated hallway conversation.

 

If we are analyzing throwaway comments, how is it that LL can say "But I know you. I know you like I know my own name. And I realize it may sound crazy in light of your secret, but I know who you are in your bones, Oliver."  When clearly even before Slade told her the truth, OQ was keeping a significant portion of his life a secret from her both pre & post island. She is right, it does sound crazy. Perhaps she truly believes that she did know him, but was completely okay with him not bothering to tell her anything. It's a weird sentiment, but its even weirder when the person has been lying or cheating on you for 1/2 of your life & the majority of your relationship (both platonic & romantic). It makes me think she might need some calcium chews as there are a lot of deficits in those bones of hers.

Edited September 14, 2015 by kismet

[Primal Slayer]

I think there is a brief throwaway line about them going to prom together, at least there is a picture of it I believe.

 

Even Oliver said in Season 1 that Laurel knows him better then anyone else.

[kismet]

Well maybe she knew Ollie, but I don't think she knows Oliver. I don't care what s1 OQ said. He also thought his mother was not involved in the undertaking. He also thought telling his best friend to go for the girl and then within a few hours was banging her in front of an open window. When it comes to women OQ has some significant blindspots.

 

I also will say this forever, if LL really knew Oliver Queen she would have figured out his secret on her own. Moira did. Felicity had her suspicions. I think QL even figured it out. For all the times LL & the Hood interacted, she should have pieced it together on her own. His eye make-up & voice modulator are not that great. Not have to wait until s2 for a villain to tell her. One of the things I loved about the FLASH is they had Iris have suspicions and figures it out on her own. I hated the lie to IW plan, but the writers were smart enough to have her figure it out in s1.

 

I'm sorry the writers were not kinder to LL, but the fact of the matter is what has happened on the show is canon whether we like it or not. Trust me there is a lot about s3 that I wish were not canon for my fav characters. The fact is they kept her out of the secret loop and it only makes her look stupid or makes it seem like Oliver does not care enough to invite her into his circle of trust.

Edited September 14, 2015 by kismet

[Primal Slayer]

I think the Flash writers learned from Arrows mistakes since Arrow was all about the drama and suspense so of course they wouldn't have Laurel figure it out on her own even though she should have. They just went where they thought they could get the best drama, even Thea didn't figure out Oliver was the Arrow on her own.

[kismet]

You're right, the FLASH people did learn from the ARROW.

 

But even other secret identity shows have little moments of Huh or maybe. There is usually some moments of possible recognition or suspicions. It adds to the drama. For example, I haven't watched Lois & Clark in years, but I remember there being moments. They didn't give any of that to LL. She was kinda oblivious. I'm not trying to be argumentative, but its clear that OQ never really let LL into his secret  circle of trust when he returned from the island. He kept her out because he didn't want her there, not for any other reason. He involved her as the Hood, but kept her out of the most important aspects that he was the Hood for no good reason.

 

As for Thea, I think he was trying to keep her as far away from his double life to keep her protected. He never wanted her as part of the darker parts of his life. That's logical brotherly over protectiveness. He wasn't visiting her on a weekly basis, asking for her legal assistance but not trusting her with the basic of secrets.

[Primal Slayer]

I think how Oliver treated Thea, he was basically treating Laurel the same except he wanted to have his cake and eat it to. He knew he could go to her for help as the Hood but didn't want her to be in the know because he wanted to keep her protected. 

[apinknightmare]

Wasn't that line added my Amell?  The writers don't seem to think about the overall story sometimes when keeping certain lines added by the actors.

 

I think he said he asked for the, "I'm done chasing after you," to be added. IDK if "I've loved you half my life" was originally in the script or not.

[tv echo]

At the Sunday panel from Dragon Con 2015, SA said that, in the S2 hallway scene between Oliver and Laurel, Oliver's line, "I have loved you for half my life, but I'm done running after you", was borne out of discussions he had with KC and was not in the original script.

Edited September 14, 2015 by tv echo

[apinknightmare]

At the Sunday panel from Dragon Con 2015, SA said that, in the S2 hallway scene between Oliver and Laurel, Oliver's line, "I've loved you for half my life, but I'm done running after you", was borne out of discussions he had with KC and was not in the original script.

 

Thank you for the citation. I thought it was just the last half!

[Starfish35]

The thing about Oliver saying Laurel knows him better than anyone else in season one and Laurel saying she knows him like she knows her own name in season two is that it's a classic case of telling and not showing (like everything else with Oliver and Laurel). If they wanted us to believe those lines, they should have been showing us that within the show itself, but it seemed like everything they showed us would lead us to believe the exact opposite. So Oliver and Laurel look delusional when they toss out those kind of lines.

Laurel's speech in season two felt particularly absurd to me, coming as it did right after an episode where we see her in flashbacks cluelessly petting a morose Oliver who is upset about getting another girl pregnant.

Edited September 14, 2015 by Starfish35

[tv echo]

Thank you for the citation. I thought it was just the last half!

I wonder how those discussions between SA and KC went in regard to that hallway scene.  Were they always in total agreement on that entire Oliver line, or was that line the result of compromise (for example, they each got what they wanted)?

Edited September 14, 2015 by tv echo

[dtissagirl]

They were pushing the ~destined to be together~ thing even in the S1 finale, when Oliver told Laurel the 5 years didn't change him, in the mansion scene:

 

"Those five years didn't change me. They just... They scraped away all the things that I wasn't, and revealed the person I always was, which is the person... That's who you always saw. I don't know how you saw it, but you did."

 

Cue: laughter. Considering his brilliant plan for their getting back together was to not ever tell her about the previous year of vigilantism.

 

And then I think that line in 214 is supposed to confirm that once they were ~meant to be~ [because comics], but now they aren't anymore, clearly exemplified by the fact that Oliver was then in a relationship with Sara. At that point they stopped writing Oliver as someone who thought Laurel was the one who knew him best. They kept writing Laurel like the one who knew ~the real~ Oliver for a while longer [no idea why, because they scrapped the idea that there was "a real" Oliver in pre-Island douchebag via S2 flashbacks], but I think in S3 they finally gave up. Laurel even told Nyssa she knew Oliver her entire life but didn't recognize him in 321.

Edited September 14, 2015 by dtissagirl

[Sakura12]

Oliver loved Laurel half his life while also loving 12 other women. What a catch that guy was. 

 

What I don't get is Oliver's words said he cared about Laurel but his actions and emotions showed he cared more about Sara. I really wonder if that was an acting choice by SA. 

 

In the Arrow comics they showed both Sara and Laurel in Prep School uniforms. Somehow they both got into what I assume was the same school Oliver and Tommy attended which is how they all met. 

[Starfish35]

They kept writing Laurel like the one who knew ~the real~ Oliver for a while longer [no idea why, because they scrapped the idea that there was "a real" Oliver in pre-Island douchebag via S2 flashbacks], but I think in S3 they finally gave up.

I think this was Kreisberg - I really do. He was the one that talked about this scene and how they thought it was so powerful that Laurel is the one to pull Oliver out of his darkest hour, etc etc. (This was also the same interview where he compared them to Lois and Clark.) But Kreisberg doesn't have anything really to do with Arrow anymore and I think that's why maybe the shift.

Also this scene, at least from what I saw, was pretty harshly mocked, so that may have been another reason they finally gave up on it.

Edited September 14, 2015 by Starfish35

[dtissagirl]

Oooh, that makes sense.

 

Also, I really have to wonder WHEN in the S2 production timeline Netflix sent the WB their gift-wrapped magical user stats for S1, and then the studio suits got legit real data about which scenes tended to be re-watched over and over and over again, and realized those involved Felicity a whole lot more than Laurel.

Edited September 14, 2015 by dtissagirl

[tarotx]

I think when they put Oliver in an actual relationship with Sara is the point that they decided to have their BC&GA as a superhero relationship that would end with her breaking up with him like the comics (though without the wedding). That is when Sara's story stopped being about herself and the relationship was used to end laurel&Oliver. Sara was even used to highlight Oliver and Felicity. Imo.

Edited September 14, 2015 by tarotx

[Guest]

At the Sunday panel from Dragon Con 2015, SA said that, in the S2 hallway scene between Oliver and Laurel, Oliver's line, "I have loved you for half my life, but I'm done running after you", was borne out of discussions he had with KC and was not in the original script.

 

That's pretty interesting actually because I think it could be argued that Oliver never really loved Laurel the way he should have done. I think on the island he romanticized and built up their relationship into more than it was, which was fair enough because he was in hell and he needed the hope. But everything we've seen and heard of their relationship is so messy I do wonder if he was truly in love with her. 

Edited September 14, 2015 by Guest

[kismet]

That's pretty interesting actually because I think it could be argued that Oliver never really loved Laurel the way he should have done. I think on the island he romanticized and built up their relationship into more than it was, which was fair enough because he was in hell and he needed the hope. But everything we've seen and heard of their relationship is so messy I do wonder if if was truly in love with her.

I think there is a difference between being in love & loving someone. I think OQ had loved LL for half of his life. That I think was accurate. Just like I think its accurate when when he tells QL he loves his family. But I'm not sure he was ever in love with LL. You don't consistently cheat on someone & be that disrespectful of the relationship if you are in love with the person. You don't come back from the dead and consistently push said person away, lie to her and, keep her out of your circle of trust but use her for information thereby putting her in danger anyway. His actions indicate that he might love LL but he is not in love with her either pre or post island.

A person in love does what OQ did in s3 with FS which is remain faithful & try to prioritize their happiness above their own. He let her go at personal emotional cost to him. He knew he couldn't commit to the relationship so he stopped it, as opposed to stringing her along & violating her trust at every opportunity like he did with LL.

OQ was in love with the thought of being in love, but his actions towards LL prove that he was never in love with her. I do think he loved her but it was not the romantic all consuming partner love. He loved her like he loved Tommy, Sara and Shado.

Edited September 14, 2015 by kismet

[Sakura12]

I don't see how it's possible for Oliver to love Laurel the same way he loved Tommy and Sara. He told Tommy about his secret life and Sara was on the hellish island with him and figured out pretty quickly he was the one in the green hood. While he constantly pushed Laurel away and probably never planned on telling her his secret. He rejected her advances when Sara showed back up and then got in a relationship with Sara.  I know Sara shouldn't done of that either but Oliver didn't seem to care about Laurel then. He chose Sara twice over her. 

 

That's why it's hard to see if there was any love there. Their relationship just seemed superficial to me. They were both pretending, Laurel was pretending she was living a fantasy with being Mrs. Oliver Queen and Oliver had the respectable girlfriend while also hooking up with a different girl every month. 

[kismet]

I meant a friends level of love. I think he did love Tommy & Sara more deeply than LL, but they all were in the friends category. Think of it as shades of color. They are all a certain shade of friendship blue but some shades are deeper than others.

[Coop33]

I think they were in love with the idea of each other. Laurel probably from the beginning, and Oliver more so after five years idealizing her in his head while on the island. 

[Guest]

I think there is a difference between being in love & loving someone. I think OQ had loved LL for half of his life. That I think was accurate. Just like I think its accurate when when he tells QL he loves his family. But I'm not sure he was ever in love with LL. You don't consistently cheat on someone & be that disrespectful of the relationship if you are in love with the person. You don't come back from the dead and consistently push said person away, lie to her and, keep her out of your circle of trust but use her for information thereby putting her in danger anyway. His actions indicate that he might love LL but he is not in love with her either pre or post island.

A person in love does what OQ did in s3 with FS which is remain faithful & try to prioritize their happiness above their own. He let her go at personal emotional cost to him. He knew he couldn't commit to the relationship so he stopped it, as opposed to stringing her along & violating her trust at every opportunity like he did with LL.

OQ was in love with the thought of being in love, but his actions towards LL prove that he was never in love with her. I do think he loved her but it was not the romantic all consuming partner love. He loved her like he loved Tommy, Sara and Shado.

 

I agree. I don't deny that there's love there. Oliver cares very deeply for the people in his life and he's known Laurel a very long time. They have a history. But having seen the way he is with Felicity, I just don't really believe that he was ever in love with Laurel. I don't like to make comparisons but there really is none.

 

He confides in Felicity. Says and thinks she's remarkable. Respects and admires her. Even after their failed date he didn't want anyone else, didn't sleep with anyone else. In fact, when Felicity was with Ray, Oliver imagined he'd end up living a life completely alone if he couldn't have Felicity. All these things showed him deeply in love. I can't say the same for Laurel, sadly.

[dtissagirl]

I see pre-island douchebag and post-island Oliver as such completely different people, that if douchebag was in love with Laurel -- or if he thought he was in love with her despite of all the gross cheating, if that works better -- I can buy it. He's so far removed from that guy now, and what he went through changed him so fundamentally, that I can't even see how it matters now how he felt back then.

[wingster55]

1. Thea never kissed Tommy

 

2. Oliver loved Laurel more than Sara. I don't think he loved Sara at all...in any way. 

[apinknightmare]

Thea tried to kiss Tommy. Given the fact that he's her brother, I don't think it matters whether she actually managed to do it or not.

[wingster55]

It kinda does to me. Difference between them and ..let's say Luke and Leia. 

[Sakura12]

Really? Then why did he date her when she was back home? And why was he trying to protect her so much on the island? 

 

That is love, not in love but Oliver does love Sara. She's a fellow survivor and that will forever bond them more than anything he had with Laurel. 

[apinknightmare]

It kinda does to me. Difference between them and ..let's say Luke and Leia. 

 

The fact that Thea tried to kiss Tommy was brought up in the context of what the writers believe to be risqué content, so in context, I don't see how it matters if she tried to kiss her brother, or actually did kiss him. It's risqué either way. 

 

Although I'm not sure that's the best example considering the writers didn't seem to know that Thea was going to be Tommy's sister when they wrote that storyline. 

[Guest]

2. Oliver loved Laurel more than Sara. I don't think he loved Sara at all...in any way. 

 

I don't want to get into which Lance sister Oliver loved more because gross but to say he never loved Sara at all is basically dismissing their whole relationship in s2.

[dtissagirl]

Hey, guys? Oliver loves Felicity so hard right now.

[Guest]

Hey, guys? Oliver loves Felicity so hard right now.

 

LMAO. 

 

It's true though. 

[AyChihuahua]

Really? Then why did he date her when she was back home? And why was he trying to protect her so much on the island?

I know I like to jump in front of bullets for people I'm entirely apathetic about.

[statsgirl]

Does that mean that Felicity loved Sara, since she took a bullet for her?

 

Didn't SA say in one of the panels that Oliver loved Sara but was not in love with her?

 

While Malcolm being Thea's father is far, far preferable to him being Oliver's father, I still feel sad that the Thea/Tommy non-sibling storyline never happened.  Laurel can have Ray (which she might prefer because she went for the alpha male) and Thea could have Tommy.

 

I really think she wanted OQ to have a true partner who brings out the best of him. With OQ not telling MQ exactly what his nocturnal activities with FS were, how was she supposed to know that FS is his personal Jiminy Crickett? She saw a pretty girl promoted out of nowhere that both her ex-husband & her son had a soft spot for. I don't know how unfaithful RQ was to MQ, but we know he was. We know that they had a rocky marriage in terms of fidelity, that must influence how she sees new & pretty girls when they have a close relationship with her family. And then for OQ to go against her, and side with FS that must have made her really wonder what power FS was holding over him. All I can say is MQ never got to know the true relationship between O/F and that is a shame because I think she would have liked FS. But we will never know because it was more important for MQ to die & fuel OQ's manpain.

We know that RQ cheated at least 3 times, just before Moira slept with Malcolm as a reaction to Robert's infidelity, with Isabel Rochev, and just before the Gambit trip when Moira said "I don't want to know her name".

 

I think it's really a loss that they didn't explore the ideas of Moira seeing Felicity as another one of Oliver's bimbos in parallel to Robert (did she see Laurel as being like herself, willing to stay with a cheater to the sake of Family/appearances?) and Isabel hating blonde Felicity because she saw her like blonde Moira, keeping her from the Man In Charge.   Guggie's statement that there was no reason for Isabel hating Felicity, these things just happen, makes me want to hit my head against my desk. Hopefully WM will treat the character interactions better.

 

 In some states, the general regular public high schools are higher rated (or as high) as any paid private school.  Still, even if they sent Oliver to a private one, I have a feeling he probably could have got himself thrown out of it and have no where left to go but the regular public schools.

But the Queens couldn't have bought him into a public school, whereas they could have donated money and got him into a private one.  That's the only explanation for colleges #3 and 4 taking him in when he had got kicked out of 1 and 2.

 

Laurel getting in on a scholarship or part scholarship because she was smart and ambitious makes the most sense to me. And then Dinah would have pushed for Sara to attend the same school because NotFavoritism, and maybe taught classes there herself to help pay for it.

 

As for Thea, I think he was trying to keep her as far away from his double life to keep her protected. He never wanted her as part of the darker parts of his life. That's logical brotherly over protectiveness. He wasn't visiting her on a weekly basis, asking for her legal assistance but not trusting her with the basic of secrets.

Oliver still saw Thea as being 12 years old even in s3, in what seems to be a leftover from his desperation to make Starling the dream world he had left behind.

Edited September 14, 2015 by statsgirl

[AyChihuahua]

Does that mean that Felicity loved Sara, since she took a bullet for her?

If Felicity had dated and slept with Sara, definitely.

[kismet]

Irregardless of bullet taking, I think there was platonic affection that could have blossomed into friendship love between FS and SL if SL hadn't been killed for reasons.

Edited September 14, 2015 by kismet

[statsgirl]

I think it was already there, or if not, then close to it.  Of course, it may be have affected by the fact that Felicity didn't seem to have any friends outside of Team Arrow, which would have made Sara her only female friend, but she was very upset by Sara's death, enough to decide to turn her life around and go for more than dying in the lair with the rest of Team Arrow.

[wingster55]

I think Oliver would take a bullet for a number of people on the show. Lance, Roy etc. Wouldn't say he loved any of them at current time. 

[Starfish35]

I believe he loved Sara. I don't think he was IN love with her, but I do believe he loved her. The way he was struggling to hold it together in 402 told me he was devastated by her death.

[lemotomato]

2. Oliver loved Laurel more than Sara. I don't think he loved Sara at all...in any way.

Oliver referred to Sara as "a woman I loved" when he talked to Barry in 3x08, so as far as Oliver is concerned, he loved her.

[Sakura12]

I imagine watching someone you love die four times in 7 years has got to be psychologically damaging. 

[Carrie Ann]

It's always funny to me whenever this issue of who really loves whom comes up, because it makes me feel like I must be a big, sentimental sap. Because I would say that I love all of my friends. Anyone that I wouldn't say that about, I would consider more of an acquaintance or a very casual friend. Maybe that's how I define "friend?" So to me, of course Oliver loved/loves Laurel. Of course he loved Sara. Of course he loves every member of Team Arrow. Including Roy.

[Balaclava]

There's a very hippie vibe to this thread right now :D "Love" 

Oliver did love Sara although i believe it was tied more to a sense of protectiveness than anything else, and i guess he loved Laurel too but in her case i can't really see how on in what capacity.

He was never in love with either of them, unless your idea of being in love is that distorted. But if it is, wait can i say? what ever rocks your boat...

Edited September 14, 2015 by Balaclava

[wingster55]

and i guess he loved Laura too but in her case i can't really see how on in what capacity.

 

I don't think he loved Laura all. I mean she was just one of his "notches". But he may have had more feelings for Frances. 

Oh man though..what he felt for notch #3 Samantha was something else.

[kismet]

I think it was already there, or if not, then close to it.  Of course, it may be have affected by the fact that Felicity didn't seem to have any friends outside of Team Arrow, which would have made Sara her only female friend, but she was very upset by Sara's death, enough to decide to turn her life around and go for more than dying in the lair with the rest of Team Arrow.

I agree it was on its way and close to it, but cut too short. It needed just a little bit more time to become love & not just serious liking. Even before she really knew SL, she had a respect for what she was doing saving the women of the city and fighting for their protection. I think once she got to personally know her that respect only grew. Likewise, I think that SL felt similar about FS. It went from her thinking FS was cute to recognizing the importance she had on TA & in OQ's life.

 

It's one of the reasons, I was so mad when they had FS throw SL under the bus to raise LL up. It just felt OOC for FS and disrespectful to the friendship & professional relationship that SL & FS had developed. I get the LL needed some support and encouragement but it did not need to come at SL's expense.

[Sakura12]

I liked that Sara recognized right away how important Felicity and Diggle were to Oliver. She was happy that he found friends that he could count on. They all respected for each other from the get go, that was the way to introduce a new player to the team, 

[statsgirl]

I think Sara also appreciated Felicity's acceptance of her and lack of judgement.  At a time when Sara felt that the things she had done were so terrible that she didn't deserve happiness and Laurel was flinging wine at her, Felicity likened joining the LoA to an ill-thought gym membership and welcomed Sara unequivocally.  And Diggle of course was a fellow soldier.

 

 

I believe he loved Sara. I don't think he was IN love with her, but I do believe he loved her. The way he was struggling to hold it together in 402 told me he was devastated by her death.

I agree. You don't suddenly decide to shut everyone else out to protect them and  yourself if you're not truly  and personally affected by the loss.

Edited September 14, 2015 by statsgirl