Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[BkWurm1]

I rewatched the season opener of season 2 and I had forgotten how all in on Oliver and Felicity as a couple it comes across as.  I remember watching it the first time and thinking, "holy crap, they are really going to go there!" but I'd forgotten how smoothly all the little beats fit together and I'd forgotten that when Felicity first suggest that he find another way, Oliver verbally scoffs at the idea but then not only quotes her words about trying "another way" to the gunman that had taken Thea, but tells Officer Lance he is trying something different and then after he saves QC from being taken over, he again credits her advice to find another way as his inspiration for going to Walter (even though it is heavily implied his mommy told him where to go)

 

From the "perfect" bow to the two Tarzan swings, to Oliver and Laurel standing at Tommy's grave deciding that the past meant they could never be together but that they would always remain in each other's life, yeah, I'm currently having a hard time believing that they hadn't already picked their horse before season two ever started. 

Edited August 30, 2015 by BkWurm1

[dtissagirl]

I rewatched the season opener of season 2 and I had forgotten how all in on Oliver and Felicity as a couple it comes across as.  I remember watching it the first time and thinking, "holy crap, they are really going to go there!" but I'd forgotten how smoothly all the little beats fit together and I'd forgotten that when Felicity first suggest that he find another way, Oliver verbally scoffs at the idea but then not only quotes her words about trying "another way" to the gunman that had taken Thea, but tells Officer Lance he is trying something different and then after he saves QC from being taken over, he again credits her advice to find another way as his inspiration for going to Walter (even though it is heavily implied his mommy told him where to go)

 

From the "perfect" bow to the two Tarzan swings, to Oliver and Laurel standing at Tommy's grave deciding that the past meant they could never be together but that they would always remain in each other's life, yeah, I'm currently having a hard time believing that they hadn't already picked their horse before season two ever started. 

 

This, so very much. Especially taking account of Stephen having said repeatedly that the first episode establishes the overall thematic arc for the whole season. 201 spends A LOT of time positioning Felicity as crucial to every aspect of Oliver's life. She's in the island, she's the one driving the QC narrative, and as you said, she's the one that presents the new "find another way" lifestyle, which is the driving force of the whole vigilante-to-hero journey. [Honoring Tommy's death is the motivation, figuring out how to do it -- i.e. finding another way -- is what drives the continuing story.]

 

201 is actually the very first episode in which Felicity is written as the Love Interest, caps required. And five episode later, in 206 and "because of the life that I lead", we know Stephen was already playing Oliver as having deep feelings for Felicity. So it does make sense that they went into the season with a whole lot of it already planned.

[kismet]

Not sure if they definitely chose it before s2 started. I believe they knew it was a strong possibility, but I think they put a lot of O/F interactions with possible romantic overtones into the first 5 episodes to test out the relationship from a writing & viewing perspective. By the time they got to ep 206, I think they knew it would work and committed to it - which is why we got the "because of the life" speech. That is not a casual speech one gives to "just a friend", that's a LI speech.

 

I was never surprised that it was their intention to make FS/OQ romantic as soon as s2. I was surprised about the timing of it and then how it was handled in s3. I was shocked that they were actually going on a date so soon. I thought they would delay the whole will they/won't they dynamic. Instead they literally blew up the relationship and just angsted their way through 19 episodes - which was a little over the top. Personally, I think I would have preferred a will they/won't they dynamic over OQ's I just can't be with you, let me brood in a corner. It made OQ seem a little weaker, FS seem a lot more moodier & me definitely irritated that they just didn't talk it out at all to even get back their friendship. We lost the romantic potential & the friendship all at once.

 

Sometimes I wish we could have parallel or alternative TV universes, because I really wonder what s2 would have been like with BA as a more featured guest & LI for FS. I get that they didn't need to keep him on once his show was picked up. But part of me is interested in what the show might have been like with both FS & OQ in actual relationships at the same time, but not with each other. I just wonder what the pining & ultimate outcome would have been like for the finale episode & s3. It would have made the dynamic so different when OQ makes his big reveal. I also wonder if it would have spared us the romantic portion of FS/RP relationship in s3. If FS had already been shown to have a physical relationship on the show, than they could have skipped that portion of RP/FS, since I believe showing FS in a romantic/physical relationship was one of the driving forces behind Raylicity. I think they still might have gotten RP/FS together, but it would have been more a rebound from BA & not just an OQ substitution - which might have served the RP & FS characters better.

[dtissagirl]

They've stalled the main romantic relationship in the exact same way all three seasons: by having Oliver, and Laurel in S1, Felicity in S2 and S3, embark in temporary relationships with other people. Tommy, Helena, McKenna in S1. Sara in S2 [actually, Barry too, even though Felicity didn't have a relationship with him. He served the narrative purpose as well]. Palmer in S3. In the main romantic arc of each season, all of those characters served the exact same purpose: stalling the main 'ship until the last few episodes of the season.

 

The only difference I can see in S3 from S1-S2, is that Oliver was celibate and pining for Felicity instead of himself embarking in a temporary relationship. Everything else is repetitive.

[calliope1975]

I think TPTB might have had very strong ideas that Felicity would be the long term eventual LI at the beginning of S2. Not only did they position her as being Oliver's moral compass, they put the nail in O/L at the cemetery. That relationship could have been kept open, but the door seemed pretty closed and locked after Tommy died. 

 

Now, I mostly hate the way they lagged on putting Oliver and Felicity together. Better writers could have made it less angsty and drawn out because that's the opposite of how I viewed these characters. But it is what it is, and since they love their parallels, we got almost a beat by beat repeat of S2 in S3, to the point that many here mapped out the season as it went along before it even aired. My hope is that TPTB were serious about S1 - S3 being a completed book, and we'll not have yet another repeat of the exact same story beats we've seen before. 

[statsgirl]

In TV terms though, putting the couple together at the end of s4 is pretty fast work.  Most shows don't do it before s5 or later, at the point where you've given up on them both already.

 

I think they went into s2 knowing that Felicity was going to be the Love Interest for the season, and they would keep her if it worked out.  The first episode of a season is always the set-up for the season's arc (s1 Oliver returning to right his father's wrongs and in love with Laurel, which explained their hook-up at the end of the season; s3 with Oliver acknowledging he is in love with Felicity but unable to be with her because he has to be the Arrow and fight bad guys).

 

I think they were right not to make Barry a serious love interest for Felicity because she didn't need one at that time. In her mind, she drooled over Oliver and cared for him but he was unattainable.  There was no development for her character to be gained by giving her someone else until Oliver stepped up and said he loved her but refused to be with her, at which time she tried to move on to someone else but couldn't . That wouldn't have worked in s2 for her because she didn't think she could have Oliver. 

 

I'm also glad they didn't have both Oliver and Felicity in relationships with other people because I hate it when shows do that.  It makes both of them look like such idiots (I know I'm really in love with X but I'm going to be in relationship with Y because X has Z) that most of the time I stop shipping them.  I did with Bones (I still don't care that Booth and Brennan and together) and it was a close call with Castle and Stargate for me.

 

It makes me very glad that Oliver was celibate in season 3 rather than have him get into a relationship that was obviously going to go nowhere, as they did with Castle.

Edited August 30, 2015 by statsgirl

[AyChihuahua]

Making Oliver celibate was one of maybe three intelligent writing decisions they made in S3. (Also Roy's "death," an actual surprising and inventive twist, and...? Was there a third? Does Thea's hand-me-down Arsenal costume looking better on her than on Roy count?)

[kismet]

Just to clarify, I am glad the way Oliver was celibate in s3 - I thought that was very important for his character. I'm not disappointed that BA was not a more important LI in s2, I'm just curious as what might have happened if OQ/SL was going on at the same time BA/FS was happening. I think it might have made for a different perception of how SL & FS were perceived. Personally, it always felt like SL got unnecessary heat for being in a believable & predictable relationship with OQ. While at the same time FS, looked like the pining/school crush girl which diminished some of her kick-assness. She never just pined after OQ after s1. In s2, they had a serious partnership (romantic or not) growing from the moment she jumped out of the plane.

 

I guess I just wonder if FS having a LI before RP, would have made s3 different in a way I could have tolerated RP/FS together or at least not have hated it so much. But it was really hard to tolerate that relationship because they made RP so antagonistic from the start. And then every move FS made to get closer to RP was a direct response to something OQ did. It felt like the relationship had nothing to do with either RP or FS. Plus as others have mentioned, it was almost an exact replication of the other LI plot/timelines that you knew exactly when stuff would happen that it made you just want to ffwd to the end & skip all the unnecessary stuff in the middle.

 

I'm not always a fan of will they/won't they, but I think a little bit more of the element might have benefited ARROW somewhat in s3, rather than the angst fest we were given over 1 failed date & OQ's stubborn streak. Perhaps, a couple moments from FS & OQ, where you could see some of their resolve melting & the feelings taking over. The Flash coffee shop hocking scene was a good moment like that, we needed more of that on Arrow itself. It would have been nice for OQ/FS to have mended their friendship more earlier in the season, so that it felt more authentic or at least more bearable. At this point now though, I definitely don't want there to ever be will they/won't they or on again/off again elements to their relationship. I think they are past the point of that being believable.

[AyChihuahua]

For me, Felicity dating someone else wasn't the problem; Felicity dating Ray the Cane Toad was the problem. I hate him, so very much, that her choosing to be with him diminished her in my eyes. I didn't hate any of the ship stall LIs (Helena is interestingly nuts and super-pretty; McKenna is smart and competent and super-pretty; I understood Oliver wanting to try with Laurel; Isabel was hot and willing; Barry cute and smart and sweet; and I love Sara). I think I hate Ray the Cane Toad more than I at least remember hating a tv character ever.

[dtissagirl]

In TV terms though, putting the couple together at the end of s4 is pretty fast work.  Most shows don't do it before s5 or later, at the point where you've given up on them both already.

 

I think in specific terms of writing relationships, the Arrow EPs are less influenced by the typical procedural TV will-they-won't-they couples [except in their hilarious fear of the Moonlighting curse], and way more ~inspired~ by Whedonverse couples: puting them together as soon as the storyline allows it, and then DESTROYING THEM for kicks.

 

Edit: Oliver/Felicity in S3 is whedonism gone wrong. Joss would probably have made them happily date for awhile, before killing Sara and/or making Oliver fall from a mountain. Which... now that I think about it, would have been preferable? 'Cause one offscreen Summer of flirty-flirt and HALF A DATE was the opposite of good writing.

Edited August 30, 2015 by dtissagirl

[calliope1975]

For me, Felicity dating someone else wasn't the problem; Felicity dating Ray the Cane Toad was the problem.

 

This is true for me as well. The idea of Ray Palmer was fine. Oliver was being a stubborn ass, and Felicity had every right to move on. The execution of Ray Palmer was terrible. If he had been written as he was towards the end of the season, I wonder if I could have liked him. As it was, however, he grated from the beginning. 

 

In other relationship news, I'm curious about Thea. I really liked her relationship with Roy. I'm still a bit unclear why CH only had a 2 year contract, but whatevs. Will Parker Young be another DJ Douchebag - pointless and brief, or is he sticking around for awhile?  

[statsgirl]

I think Thea/politico depends on what plans they have for Roy/CH.  It will probably last longer than DJ Douchebag but if they're going to have Roy  hang around, coming back occasionally and fulltime later on, it will be a short term thing.

 

I wonder if they will give Laurel a new love interest. She needs one more than Thea does.

 

 

I guess I just wonder if FS having a LI before RP, would have made s3 different in a way I could have tolerated RP/FS together or at least not have hated it so much.

[snip]

I'm not always a fan of will they/won't they, but I think a little bit more of the element might have benefited ARROW somewhat in s3, rather than the angst fest we were given over 1 failed date & OQ's stubborn streak. Perhaps, a couple moments from FS & OQ, where you could see some of their resolve melting & the feelings taking over. The Flash coffee shop hocking scene was a good moment like that, we needed more of that on Arrow itself. It would have been nice for OQ/FS to have mended their friendship more earlier in the season, so that it felt more authentic or at least more bearable.

I think Felicity having a love interest in s2 would have weakened the Oliver/Felicity bond for me.  I believe in their love right now because Oliver was celibate in s3 when he couldn't have Felicity, and she couldn't make a relationship with Oliver-lite work.  If Felicity had had a relationship in s2 as well as s3, I'd say Oliver in s4 was just a different coat she was trying on.

 

There was a lot of will they/won't they for me in s3, but it was all "Will Oliver get his head out of his ass and get together with Felicity or won't he?"

 

 

Edit: Oliver/Felicity in S3 is whedonism gone wrong. Joss would probably have made them happily date for awhile, before killing Sara and/or making Oliver fall from a mountain. Which... now that I think about it, would have been preferable? 'Cause one offscreen Summer of flirty-flirt and HALF A DATE was the opposite of good writing.

I think shippers would have enjoyed it more if they had dated for a while before Sara died but it would have made Oliver even more of an idiot to have cut Felicity out of his life after being good in a relationship with her.

 

What I really wish is that they had given us the 2.5 summer of flirty-flirty but not actually being together.

[kismet]

I guess we'll never know what it would have been like to have FS in a relationship in s2, since we can't go back. I don't think it would have weakened the bond between OQ & FS for me. I'll believe in that bond despite any relationship they had/have. I believed it through S/O & R/F, so another relationship would not have ruined it for me. Frankly, I don't trust these writers - so I'm preparing myself to have to trust it through whatever shenanigans the writers have in store for time in future seasons.

 

Perhaps, I'm just longing to have seen a relationship with FS & someone that was not the douchebag that RP was. I hate when they waste time on relationships that you know are just for plot reasons & so much of R/F was just for plot. It truly just a waste of their time & my time. I never felt S/O or any of OQ's other relationships were a waste of time. They all made sense to me. I didn't mind watching them. But every moment of R/F felt like I just wanted to jump through the screen and ask FS what she was doing. Again, I had no problem with her moving on and dating someone other than OQ. I thought it was brave to be getting out there and living her life. But I was truly flabbergasted by her choice in RP and then to keep with it when he seemed to be in it for her skills only & dropping creepy red flags everywhere. Between Cooper & RP, I was really beginning to question her choice in men. At points in the season, she had future star of Lifetime Movie/ Dateline Friday written all over her.

[statsgirl]

A big problem with Ray/Felicity for me is that it wasn't about growth for her but about setting him up for a new series, whereas Oliver/Sara was not only shorter (R/F went from 3x07 to 3x20 over the Christmas hiatus while O/S was 2x13 to 2x20) but it also informed us about Oliver as a person at that point.

 

Going from the EPs comments, I think they did mean for R/F to show us Felicity in a non-Oliver relationship and give her a real choice between the two men but that bombed because Ray was such a stalker in the beginning and a horrible douche in 3x17.  However, he was smart, handsome and rich, not to mention Superman, and he gave her credit for her abilities up until 3x17 and the Flash episode when he didn't, unlike Oliver who made her his EA and let everyone at QC gossip that she had got the job on her back or her knees.  I wonder if by 3x17 they had just given up trying to make us like Raylicity.

 

I appreciate the decision that for Felicity there was no one but Oliver until he said a relationship would never happen, and for Oliver there was no one but Felicity once he had accepted that he loved her.  In TVland, that means a lot to me.

Edited August 30, 2015 by statsgirl

[kismet]

A big problem with Ray/Felicity for me is that it wasn't about growth for her but about setting him up for a new series, whereas Oliver/Sara was not only shorter (R/F went from 3x07 to 3x20 over the Christmas hiatus while O/S was 2x13 to 2x20) but it also informed us about Oliver as a person at that point.

 

Going from the EPs comments, I think they did mean for R/F to show us Felicity in a non-Oliver relationship and give her a real choice between the two men but that bombed because Ray was such a stalker in the beginning and a horrible douche in 3x17.  However, he was smart, handsome and rich, not to mention Superman, and he gave her credit for her abilities up until 3x17 and the Flash episode when he didn't, unlike Oliver who made her his EA and let everyone at QC gossip that she had got the job on her back or her knees.  I wonder if by 3x17 they had just given up trying to make us like Raylicity.

 

I appreciate the decision that for Felicity there was no one but Oliver until he said a relationship would never happen, and for Oliver there was no one but Felicity once he had accepted that he loved her.  In TVland, that means a lot to me.

Gonna have to disagree with you on the Superman part. Dean Cain & Christopher Reeve are Superman. I love Henry Cavill too if you want Dark Superman. But RP/BR they got nothing on Superman, or at least a Superman that appeals to me.

 

And I never saw OQ placing FS in the role of his EA as way to diminish her skills/abilities. It was a way to keep her close to him because he so heavily relied on her guidance & counsel. And whenever, he was confronted with the rumors head on (which was like once), he cleared up the confusion. I don't think the rumors should be held against him. What could he really have done to squash them without drawing more attention to them? Frankly, if I worked at PT, formerly QC, I would begin to wonder what exactly FS does that both CEOs essentially handed the company over to her after being romantically linked to her. Its not right & definitely not a good take on feminism. But the writers are doing her no favors by just having stuff handed over to her. I'm in her corner & support her as a character, but its making her an easy target in the office gossip pool & the fandom sites.

 

That being said, its really shouldn't be FS's fault all they gave her to work with/date was RP. They even took away her assistant after one episode. She had a pretty small pool of suitors to choose from in the writers room. I'm just disappointed what we got was a creepy Ray for most of the season. And then her whole story for the season revolved around him or OQ.

[AyChihuahua]

Ray the Cane Toad was a douchemaster long before 3.17. IMO he was a douchemaster in the first episode when he tricked Felicity into helping him hack QC, which he had every reason to know she wouldn't knowingly do. He was a douchemaster in some way in nearly every episode, including the crossover, but he was definitely a douchemaster in 3.16 when he was oh-so-surprised Felicity fixed that bug so quickly. How dare a mere female be more competent than Wonderboy Ray?!? One of my favorite things about Oliver has been his delighted wonder at how much smarter Felicity is than he is. ("Is that judgment I'm hearing?" "Pride.") I have so many problems with Oliver now, but he has never seemed an iota misogynistic or even sexist to me (he's ridiculously overprotective, but that has historically applied to Digg as well as Felicity and Thea, although for obvious reasons he's been more fine with some degree of physical danger for Digg than for Felicity or Thea).

[statsgirl]

Well Ray does have 3 PhDs (???) so I thought it was more a case of "How can anyone be smarter than me?" rather than the fact that Felicity is a woman. Oliver knows he can't even begin to compete on an academic front.

 

And whatever we many think of Superman Returns (and whether firing Matt Bomer was a mistake), it is true that Felicity got a movie star for her love interest. They tried to do right by her.

 

And I never saw OQ placing FS in the role of his EA as way to diminish her skills/abilities. It was a way to keep her close to him because he so heavily relied on her guidance & counsel. And whenever, he was confronted with the rumors head on (which was like once), he cleared up the confusion. I don't think the rumors should be held against him. What could he really have done to squash them without drawing more attention to them? Frankly, if I worked at PT, formerly QC, I would begin to wonder what exactly FS does that both CEOs essentially handed the company over to her after being romantically linked to her. Its not right & definitely not a good take on feminism. But the writers are doing her no favors by just having stuff handed over to her. I'm in her corner & support her as a character, but its making her an easy target in the office gossip pool & the fandom sites.

I don't think that Oliver wanted to diminish Felicity's skills and accomplishments.  But what he did was very selfish -- he wanted her close to him in the executive office so without consulting her, he took her out of a job that she had trained for and was highly skilled at and put her in a job she had no interest in or training for.  She stayed in the position because of her feelings for/loyalty to him, not because it's a job she wanted.  In contrast, Ray took what she had trained for and was very good at and gave her a job where she could run free with those abilities.

 

But Oliver didn't hand the company over to her -- she remained his EA (a glorified secretary in some eyes) throughout the whole time.  But one thing he could have done re the rumors is to say to Isabel "I would appreciate it if you would shut it down whenever  you hear anything like that."  She probably wouldn't have but at least he would have made an effort.  But by sleeping with Isabel, he essentially substantiated them i.e. that Oliver Queen would sleep with anyone who made a pass at him and so it was most likely true that he promoted Felicity because she was willing in bed.

 

By the time Felicity takes over as Palmer Tech CEO, if she actually does, she will have worked as a VP for almost a year and has been seen standing beside Ray at press announcements.  Hopefully Gerry let everyone know how skilled she was at her job.

[AyChihuahua]

Well Ray does have 3 PhDs (???) so I thought it was more a case of "How can anyone be smarter than me?" rather than the fact that Felicity is a woman. Oliver knows he can't even begin to compete on an academic front.

That was the beginning of overt misogyny from Ray the Cane Toad. The very next episode was him telling Laurel, plainly, that her poor little female brain doesn't work right around cute boys, and telling Felicity the same thing slightly less plainly. That is misogyny. And re Oliver, it's not about academics. Dude doesn't even have a BA. But prior to S3, he was very, very smart, and yet still loved that Felicity was much smarter. That's anti-misogyny.

[kismet]

@statsgirl I don't think we'll ever see eye to eye on OQ, and I don't wanna go 20 rounds deep with it, because we are both allowed our own opinion.  :) I will never see OQ making her his EA as a demotion, because frankly she was just some IT girl before. Albeit an underutilized diamond genius in the rough, but still not making huge waves buried in IT. They never really described what her IT job was, so I don't really know what she did but it certainly wasn't a titled position. And I also have a deep respect for EAs, everyone knows they are the powersource in companies. Need to find someone important or some critical information go to the EA, they are witness to everything. Always be nice to EA & secretaries they hold a lot of the power. Sidenote - similar reasoning is why you should always be nice to nurses & waitresses. And especially with OQ's leadership style, my guess is the FS was getting more of firsthand experience running of the company than any of her other predecessors.

 

I get what your saying about her training & her degrees, so perhaps he could have taken that into consideration when he changed her job. He did upgrade her computers significantly. But you're right, he definitely should have talked to her about it, esp after she was so upset. They could have made it more than just an EA, give it some fancy consultant title or something. But it really did facilitate more easy communication if he had her in that position instead of in IT. It also gave us one of the best OTA interactions with Dig & his black driver comment. As for RP giving her the VP title, well kudos to him - it was one of the only nice things he did that didn't immediately result from or with something to benefit him. It really did just feel like one more of his bribes to get her to work on his suit for free & then give her no credit whatsoever. And I tend to agree AyChihuahua, a lot of RP's actions & words had very sexist overtones to them, moreso than when OQ was her boss & she was in a more stereotypical female role. I won't say RP was misogynistic, but he definitely was arrogant & sexist. It was apparent even in his scene with LL. So yeah he gave her the job, but I'd still rather work for OQ as his EA than RP as his VP, because I feel that OQ respects women & RP hasn't quite learned how to respect them yet.

 

Lastly, I always saw OQ sleeping with Isabel as his way to dispel the rumors firsthand. It also made sense that would use it both as a way to prove to himself & Isabel that there was nothing going on between him & FS. Of course, we all know that was a failed attempt. Poor boy was so distracted by FS, who knows what he said or what really happened. But I truly believe that OQ in one his not so genius relationship moments thought, I will sleep with Isabel & this will prove she is wrong about FS. It was partially his knucklehead way of defending her.

[statsgirl]

We shall have to agree to disagree, but I can't help responding to two of your points:

 

I have all the respect in the world for nurses.  In some of my jobs, I've had to rely on their sage opinions.  And even though I have trained for years in my area, I didn't train as a nurse and seriously, no one should ever hire me as a nurse over someone who has trained to do that job.  Moreover, I don't want to be a nurse however much I respect nurses, just as Felicity didn't want the EA job.  I'd rather be doing the job I want at a junior level than a job I don't want at a higher one.  Not to mention, it probably really pissed off the existing EA's at QC who had been hoping for a promotion to the CEO's office.

 

Maybe they were the ones who started the rumors about Felicity sleeping her way to the position. It just shows again how ill-suited Oliver was to be the CEO.

 

But it really did facilitate more easy communication if he had her in that position instead of in IT.

 

Exactly, it helped him, not her.  Just as upgrading her computers benefited him because she could find out the info he wanted more quickly.

 

Lastly, I always saw OQ sleeping with Isabel as his way to dispel the rumors firsthand. It also made sense that would use it both as a way to prove to himself & Isabel that there was nothing going on between him & FS. [snip]

It was partially his knucklehead way of defending her.

If he had been thinking, maybe he would have realized that sleeping with Isabel just proved that he would sleep with anything in a skirt who was willing, even someone who had tried to take his family's company away from him and strip it bare.  It backfired on him though and served to confirm to Isabel that he gave Felicity the job of his EA because she was willing to have sex with him (see Isabel telling Oliver he could let Felicity take the night off because his needs were taken care of).

[kismet]

We shall have to agree to disagree

 

If he had been thinking, maybe he would have realized that sleeping with Isabel just proved that he would sleep with anything in a skirt who was willing, even someone who had tried to take his family's company away from him and strip it bare.  It backfired on him though and served to confirm to Isabel that he gave Felicity the job of his EA because she was willing to have sex with him (see Isabel telling Oliver he could let Felicity take the night off because his needs were taken care of).

Not a problem, I like hearing different opinions. Thanks for you responses :)

 

You're right about Oliver & Isabel in some ways. If he had been thinking more than perhaps he would have realized that it would backfire on him. But sometimes OQ doesn't always think clearly, esp when sex is involved. 5 years on an "island" can change somethings, but some bad habits are hard to break.

Edited August 30, 2015 by kismet

[statsgirl]

I agree, Oliver never thinks too clearly when sex or family is involved.

 

I've just figured out why I don't get the logic of thinking that sleeping with Isabel would put to rest the idea he was sleeping with Felicity.  Because tthat would imply that he would have been faithful to his EA if he was sleeping with her and there's no reason for Isabel to think that.  He never was in the old days, that would have turned up in Isabel's research on him,  And as she well knew, Robert wasn't faithful to Moira, and she was his wife, not his EA.

 

Although if I fanwank really hard, maybe it speaks to Oliver's feelings about Felicity that he thinks that anyone sleeping with her would be faithful to her and that's why he thought it would stop Isabel's rumor-spreading.  (poor sap)

Edited August 30, 2015 by statsgirl

[kismet]

But if he didn't sleep with Isabel that would have turned up the intensity on Felicity. Because why would OQ all the sudden be faithful to anyone (least of all his EA in Isabel's eyes)? So it might not put to bed the rumors, but it certainly might have started more or brought more scrutiny to FS, as well as their secret mission in Russia.

 

It was a lose/lose situation for OQ, minus the quick & easy sex. He should stick to doing shots of vodka in his room far away from evil seductresses.

[statsgirl]

It wasn't necessarily a question of fidelity though.  Oliver had a very good reason for not sleeping with Isabel -- because she had been trying to take away his company and put everyone out of work.  (If only he'd known about Isabel and his father, that would have been the best reason of all.)

 

Oliver could easily have said that his playboy days were over and he was walking the straight and narrow because that's what his company deserved.  By sleeping with Isabel, even aside from anything about Felicity, he reinforced her previous perception of him.

 

He really should have stuck to shots of vodka in his room. Or at least, going over the papers for the Russia division so he could show Isabel he really had come to Russia to work.

[kismet]

The problem is Isabel would have seen his rejection as a personal offense. She would have come after him more. She doesn't seem like the type of woman that handles rejection well. The paperwork excuse might have worked, but it would have been lame for OQ- so I doubt it really would have sufficed Isabel as a proper excuse.

 

I also don't think him saying he was trying the straight & narrow would have worked, since publicly returning from the dead he had maintained his playboy persona image to cover up his other nighttime activities. To the world, OQ was still a playboy. Didn't they even explain his 3mo summer disappearance as part of Euro-tripping party binge? (I'm not quite sure on that).

 

Honestly, he should have just have avoided the bar altogether. That's what in-room mini-bars are for.

[AyChihuahua]

Honestly, he should have just have avoided the bar altogether. That's what in-room mini-bars are for.

Sacrilege! Hotel bars are the best!

[kismet]

Sacrilege! Hotel bars are the best!

Totally agree! ... Except for OQ who is easily distracted by his little brain and can't seem to not get caught in Isabel's claws. I guess OQ should just not drink alone at a hotel bar... luckily he can just bring FS with him now. Problem solved :)

[Velocity23]

 

 

Oliver and Felicity firing a machine gun for the first time

[Guest]

Where are all the complaints that Oliver automatically knew how to use a machine gun and how unrealistic that is!

 

Double standards kill me.

[wonderwall]

Where are all the complaints that Oliver automatically knew how to use a machine gun and how unrealistic that is!

 

Double standards kill me.

 

He's a MAN of course he knows how to automatically use a machine gun. I mean, the show at that point was desperately trying to hard to make past Oliver look like a badass. -_-

[Guest]

He's a MAN of course he knows how to automatically use a machine gun. I mean, the show at that point was desperately trying to hard to make past Oliver look like a badass. -_-

 

Ugh, I know. Oliver using a machine gun was so forced and didn't fit the show at all!

[tarotx]

Imo for some it's not because Felicity's a girl. If Laurel did it, for whatever reason, it would be cool. We know for some Felicity is just supposed to be support.

[wonderwall]

Imo for some it's not because Felicity's a girl. If Laurel did it, for whatever reason, it would be cool. We know for some Felicity is just supposed to be support.

 

I think the issue is with some people is that they're determined to keep her in a box, yet at the same time complain how she's such a flat character and has no storyline of her own. That's just super frustrating to me. And then when Felicity actually DOES something like save herself, it's seen as the writers are trying too hard to make her cool. 

 

I have no problem with her using a machine gun as long as it's not unrealistic like she suddenly becomes a sharp shooter. I don't have a problem w/ LL riding a motorcycle because it's not difficult to learn how to use one. etc.

[Guest]

I think the issue is with some people is that they're determined to keep her in a box, yet at the same time complain how she's such a flat character and has no storyline of her own. That's just super frustrating to me. And then when Felicity actually DOES something like save herself, it's seen as the writers are trying too hard to make her cool. 

 

I have no problem with her using a machine gun as long as it's not unrealistic like she suddenly becomes a sharp shooter. I don't have a problem w/ LL riding a motorcycle because it's not difficult to learn how to use one. etc.

 

THIS. I would be like 'WTF' if Felicity picked up that machine gun and knew how to shoot perfectly but I think this is fine because she clearly doesn't know how to shoot. Look at her. She hasn't got a clue. That's realistic to me. And anything is better than being a damsel and sitting there waiting to be saved. She's being proactive and saving herself. 

 

But people just don't like it if Felicity steps outside her assigned little box of IT girl who says cute one liners and it's so infuriating because she's a character and they're supposed to evolve. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

What's funny to me is how much media mileage the show gets out of Felicity's action scenes. I mean, everybody was talking about ATOM Felicity whether they loved it or not. Say Tablet of Doom and everybody knows what scene because it's been featured on various sites, including the comic-focused ones. This machine-gun scene was on many sites' "most awesome" moments of the Season 4 trailer. I love it when Felicity gets to do this. Stunts that involve characters I do not like? *shrug* Don't care. They don't even register unless they are fantastically stupid (such as jumping at a helicopter or jumping off a building without a rope).

Edited September 8, 2015 by SmallScreenDiva

[fantique]

I will just say this, if their is an Olicity engagement/wedding this coming season? I will barf, for realsies. Seriouqly, too freaking soon. And cheesy. And soooo eyeroll worthy, IMHO.

[HighwayFlower]

Done right, I think having a settled and married super hero who is not banging the flavor of the week would be very different and refreshing.

Seeing them work through crap as a couples a not breaking up to create stupid relationship drama would be great.

[jay741982]

Lmfao at people thinking that Oliver smiling shouldn't occur or is a bad thing just because of who he is smiling at. He smiles at Diggle also. But, when it's Felicity some people just can't handle it.

Yes cause how dare Oliver smile at the woman he loves,the love of his life LOL

[fantique]

Done right, I think having a settled and married super hero who is not banging the flavor of the week would be very different and refreshing.

Seeing them work through crap as a couples a not breaking up to create stupid relationship drama would be great.

Those key words are why I think it's too soon and a bad idea. The writers need to figure out how to write that dynamic and know when drama is necessary and when it's overplayed. They're not there yet and neither are the characters. They are already more constant in each other's lives than a regular couple would be after dating for five months, let's explore that before jumping into another stage.

 

And, it has nothing to do with him being a super hero. In fact, the further away from super hero tropes arrow gets, the better I like it. That's the reason why, while I enjoy the Flash, I don't give a shit about seeing its trailer, don't discuss it here on the forums, haven't thought about it since the finale...Too gimmicky and handwave dependent characterisations to assure PLOT! So there was nothing more I enjoyed than seeing Oliver celibate for a year. I am 100% in favour of him being in committed monogamous relationship. I just don't see the need for said committed monogamous relationship to be a marriage. Especially because I believe neither party would be doing it for the right reasons. They're not ready for the relationship they should have as a married couple. They need to mature more first. On the right track, for sure, but not there yet. Not even close.

[apinknightmare]

Just because Oliver asks (if Oliver asks, since this is all speculation), Felicity isn't necessarily going to say yes. In fact, if he did ask, I'm fairly sure she'd turn him down at this point. That could be a source for some internal conflict between them without breaking them up. 

[Sakura12]

I don't think Oliver is ready to get married yet. So I do hope if he asks Felicity does say no. Oliver doesn't always think clearly when it comes to love and relationships, hopefully Felicity is the voice of reason. I know shippers have been waiting for years, but Oliver and Felicity have only been a real couple for a few months and they still have a ton baggage they need to work through before taking a huge step like marriage. 

 

Oliver spent most of last year acting like a dumbass, I'd be worried he could go back to that at any moment. This would be his first real equal loving relationship, he needs to see it though for awhile, then think about the next steps. 

Edited September 8, 2015 by Sakura12

[quarks]

I guess I'm the opposite. Oliver and Felicity have known each other for three years now and officially dated for about five months at this point (maybe six if you count Candle Room as the start.) Sure, that's included some separations - Oliver heading back to the island, Oliver not really dead, Oliver not really brainwashed - but during most of that time, they've spent a lot of time together, often in pretty dangerous situations, the sort of situations that at least in film/television let people bond quickly.

 

Plus, assuming that they don't arrive in Starling City already married (and I'm only assuming that because the fan outrage over not getting to see the wedding would be epic, and I assume that Arrow knows that, but then again, that's a lot of assumptions, and this is Arrow, after all), any engagement probably isn't going to happen until November (after dating for six months), the mid-season finale in December (seven months), February (nine months) or May (one year.) I don't think that's too soon for any couple. By Arrow standards, it's even kinda slow.

 

ETA: Which isn't to say I need/want to see them get married just season, just that I don't necessarily think it would be too soon. Though if there is a wedding this season - and I think that's a huge, huge if - odds are it will get interrupted by bad guys anyway.

Edited September 8, 2015 by quarks

[HighwayFlower]

I got engaged after a month and have been married 18 years. Now true, my husband doesn't run around at night killing bad guys and my computer savy doesn't go beyond email, but i don't think them getting engaged after a few months with all they have been through isn't that far fetched.

Edited September 8, 2015 by HighwayFlower

[dtissagirl]

I kinda loved it that Stephen answered the DragonCon panel question of when is Oliver gonna propose to Felicity with "when he gets his shit together", because it displays an awareness that 1. Oliver DOES want to get married to Felicity, but 2. he probably knows he's nowhere near ready to do it.

 

I do think a proposal has a super high potential of being used as a plot device this season, though.

[Starfish35]

but i don't think them getting engaged after a few months with all they have been through is that far fetched.

Maybe not, but at this point we the viewers haven't actually seen them together as a couple for more than like five minutes. So yes, personally it would feel a little fast to me. Not as fast as them getting married last season, as so many were speculating, but still fast. YMMV.

Edited September 8, 2015 by Starfish35

[AyChihuahua]

I think an engagement much later in the season is likely, but not a wedding. And there's no way the wedding will go smoothly or even happen the first time. I'd say no wedding until S5 finale at the earliest, and likely a courthouse thing.

[Sakura12]

Again for me Oliver spent most of the time they've known each other acting like a dumbass that couldn't be with her because of his own stupid reasons. Oliver does need to get his shit together first. A couple that doesn't have that issue or the many others Oliver has getting engaged quickly is fine with me. Oliver and Felicity do have those issues that need to be dealt with first. 

 

An engagement at the end of season 4 seems more plausible for me, because we'd seem them work and play together as a couple then see them take that next step. 

[quarks]

Maybe not, but at this point we the viewers haven't actually seen them together as a couple for more than like five minutes. So yes, personally it would feel a little fast to me. Not as fast as them getting married last season, as so many were speculating, but still fast. YMMV.

 

Fair enough. I don't think that a wedding is going to happen in the next few episodes anyway, so this might or might not be a problem by the time they do get married - even assuming they do, which is still a pretty big assumption.  

 

And, well, it's Arrow.  The chances of Oliver/Felicity managing to get through a wedding, at least the first time, without a problem, seem pretty low - Arrow couldn't even get through Diggle and Lyla's wedding reception/honeymoon without AUUGH EMERGENCY and Amanda Waller as usual ruining everything.  So even if Entertainment Weekly does a huge THE OLIVER/FELICITY WEDDING - EXCLUSIVE ON SET PICTURES next week, I'm not overly worried about an Oliver/Felicity marriage happening too soon.

[HighwayFlower]

But I want to watch all the Olicity haters heads explode! OMG! They messed up Cannon!!!'

[apinknightmare]

But I want to watch all the Olicity haters heads explode! OMG! They messed up Cannon!!!'

 

I imagine a lot of them would think that Felicity was his trial run at marriage, before he was ready for the "real" thing.

Edited September 8, 2015 by apinknightmare