S01.E12: The End Of The Beginning

[Kromm]

  On 3/15/2017 at 11:39 PM, Netfoot said:

Well, I never saw that coming.

What sort of organization could make Lady Macbeth kill not only her own husband, but her own self as well?  

I'm hoping the Russians are the big bad.  I'm so tired of Muslim terrorists in these storylines, and 24 is doing it again. 

I found it interesting that MacLeish seemed tormented by what the US government did, and that's what compelled him to turn.  Reminds me a little of Brody in Homeland.

Hopefully Lady MacLeish knew her children would be cared for before turning them into orphans. 

The show just became very interesting to me.  The big bads were only a spoke in the wheel.

I'm still watching the show, but I have to say that a show about someone in the Executive Branch being a Russian puppet may be a bit too on the nose, and where it would fall down is also where Scandal, Madame Secretary, heck... even the current 24 show do... that none of their wacky conspiracy plots are HALF as crazy as what's going on in real life now with that office. Every conspiracy plot out there pales in comparison to a situation where an outright foreign puppet is close to overtly operating, and yet still in power.

That resonates weird with ALL of these shows now. They're all operating under a scenario where they seem tame, and sometimes even MORE contrived (but now for the opposite reasons from before--where they seemed contrived because they're so outrageous--and now they seem contrived because unlike in real life, scandals seem to have actual long term consequences that they no longer seem to in the actual real world).

[paigow]

8 hours ago, Kromm said:

That resonates weird with ALL of these shows now. They're all operating under a scenario where they seem tame, and sometimes even MORE contrived

Life imitates AMC...but is worse than ABC, CBS & FOX???

[shapeshifter]

On March 19, 2017 at 2:02 PM, seacliffsal said:

I actually was glad that the writers went there and killed the young boy (even more happy that we did not have to see it...) as I am always amazed when t.v. characters BELIEVE terrorists, etc., about letting the family members live after someone does what they are told.  

I am so over the First Lady's sense of entitlement to her husband's position and power.  She uses it for her own ends (deportation story) and expects him to tell her everything when she does not return the favor (son and drugs).  Plus, staff members are telling her things that they should be telling the President (Emily with the info about Aaron).  then she is all incensed that he is talking privately with others.  It is almost like she does not understand what the office of the President is or what his responsibilities are.  I think it would be brilliant if she was somehow involved (especially as she was reminiscing about her being the one to get him to take the HUD position).

Assuming this episode was written under the direction of a new showrunner, FLOTUS does look like a potential mole.

On March 19, 2017 at 3:33 PM, paigow said:

When the Cold War ended, who were the go-to bad guys? International organized crime - Drug / human trafficking; Terrorists [foreign / domestic, secular / non secular] or smaller Rogue states - North Korea, Fake!Iran, Fake!Iraq

Trumpistan Bizzarostan?

[OtterMommy]

10 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Assuming this episode was written under the direction of a new showrunner, FLOTUS does look like a potential mole.

 

I'm not sure (yet) that she's a mole.  Instead, I think it is more likely that she's someone who could be persuaded to come to the side of whatever this is.  

[Roseanna]

On ‎16‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 5:11 AM, merylinkid said:

Poor Atwood.   He threw his life away and the bastards had probably killed his son before they ever even spoke to him.   Or they never had him and just used the moment.   

No, Atwood spoke to his son and asked him about some private matters. More than that, we saw the boy with the kidnapper.

On ‎16‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 5:12 AM, dwmarch said:

All this murder and terrorism and kidnapping and extortion and MacLeish is arrested for perjury!

Yes, wasn't his order to kill the assassin a crime as he was only a suspect until tried in court. He spoke about saving "innocents" but it was bullshit, they were no ordinary people but professionals who did their job.

And, as Kimble said, without the trial there would be always suspicion that the assassin was silenced because he was a part of conspiracy.  

Speaking of suspicions, why isn't the press furious? And where is Miss Journalist who used to dig dirt?

On ‎16‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 5:59 AM, Danielg342 said:

Of course, I have to indulge in one small procedural matter- ahem, Jason Atwood, I told you, kicking and screaming way back in the first half of the season that you had no reason to trust that the Conspiracy wouldn't still hurt your son despite you doing everything they tell you to. I hate to say "I told you so" but...

Quite! One could undestand if he were an ordinary citizen. But he is a deputy chief of FBI. The boy saw the lady kidnapper, so they couldn't let him live.

On ‎16‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 8:12 AM, cali1981 said:

I thought that they were with a ultra right wing group but given McLeish's speaking of his need to avenge the betrayal of the troops, I'm not sure anymore.  Maybe a military coup is at work here?  It would have to cut across all of the services and include high ranking current and former officers a la Seven Days in May.  Let's see what they do with this next week.

I think accusions against the government that "betrayed" sounds just like ultra right.

But according to what Hannah found about the military mission, it wasn't the government  that ordered them to commit war crimes. but the soldiers committed  them on their own, maybe they furious that they were ambushed before but that's no excuse. To me, what Macleish said to his buddy, sounds an usual way to deny one's own guilt by blaming others.

On ‎16‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 9:52 AM, Happy Harpy said:

More scenes with the White House personnel, yes! I like the friendship between Emily and Seth. I don't believe that Aaron is guilty and I'm feeling sorry for him. He found a guy he believes in, finally, and said guy investigates on him. He was reasonable with Emily and Kirkman's reasons here so hopefully he will be when he knows the truth, and it soothes him that Kirkman's orders were to clear him. But it's going to sting anyway. I like Aaron/Emily and how the drama is kept low-key, no big quarrels or petty/unprofessional behavior; I feel for both of them here, too.

I like both Aaron and Emily. They are sweet together.

But Aaron seemed to be too trusting which he isn't normally. Why on earth would Kirkman put Emily to check Aaron's past if it was a routine check about all White House staff? First, before Emily wanted the post Aaron got and now they are friends - in both cases Emily isn't neutral. Second, has Emily even enough competence to do this kind of job? 

The conclusion Aaron should have made is clear: this is no routine check but Aaron is suspected of something serous. Therfore Kirkman chose Emily because she was the only one he trust.        

[Roseanna]

On ‎17‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 1:40 AM, marinw said:

I am also loving how Tom is much surer of himself now. That new sense of authority is earned because we saw what a pushover he was early on.

Just the contrary, I am losing any hope aboit him. Of course, the idea that an innocent, inexperienced man could make a good president was faulty but I though he would learn. But he hasn't. (Of course it's really the fault of the scriptwriters.)

Before all, he is too trusting. He chose Macleish to VT because he, unlike Kimble, offered his support without reservations, although just that should have made him suspicions. Now he doesn't "really" suspect Aaron but want to clear him - and still, he accepted the bad advice from his wife not to ask him about the call. Yes, it coud be a risk to ask, but it would also be the only way to learn who, if he didn't stop the general to see the congress file on his own, who ordered hm to do it? Do Kirkman really think that stopping access from secret files doesn't ring the bells in Adam's head?     

On ‎18‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 3:57 AM, Raja said:

Actually I think it was supposed to be a bad thing. I think that is how the conspiracy confirmed that Hannah was still working the case and not in lock up for the attempted assassination of the President. As if any person with a Bar card can just walk up to a jail desk and demand to see a suspect in this kind of case

I wonder if it was a chance that the Kidnapping Lady asked Hannah just then (or rather, that the plot demanded that Lady Macleish got the information just then)? Or had the conspiracy got a tip and wanted to make sure? If the latter, from whom?

On ‎19‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 1:57 PM, waving feather said:

I'm calling it now: Mike is the mole. His sudden deep involvement in the conspiracy and becoming Kirkman's right-hand man is textbook writing of a mole (IMO). In this episode alone, he was executing a lot of his ideas (e.g. asking the VP's Secret Service to stand back, restricting Aaron's access, cutting off info to the First-Lady). Nothing wrong with these ideas, but I am curious to know how it will all add up in the end.

If Mike were the mole, he (1) could have let Hannah rot in the cell or (2) informed Lady Macleish that she was set free.

Before all, the Premier Mole is someone who stopped teh General's access to the file "how to destroy the Congress" (that is. if the General told Kirkman the truth and he is not a member of the conspiracy). 

So far, we have been shown that Emily checked only Aaron, but there must be several names on the paper Kirkman gave her.

On ‎19‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 7:26 PM, RedheadZombie said:

I'm hoping the Russians are the big bad. 

No way - the Russians are a lot smarter. On the basis what Macleish and his wife have spoken, it's clearly an American conspiracy.   

On ‎19‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 9:02 PM, seacliffsal said:

Plus, staff members are telling her things that they should be telling the President (Emily with the info about Aaron).  

I think just that case was understandable as the President was unable to act. But how can FLOTUS say that there was no chance to tell him before as we have seen them talking together? Doesn't she understand that not to tell would endanger both her husband and the country? She should have told him at once he was out of danger.

[Roseanna]

On ‎16‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 5:11 AM, merylinkid said:

Finally some acknowledgment that the President can't just go spilling everything to everyone he wants to.   Although I have always felt the wife should be cleared because the president needs someone he trusts more than anyone else, who won't use the information against him.   In most cases that is the wife.

I think that it's very seldom that the President has a wife who has talents and ecperience enough to give him useful advice. 

In this episode Alex failed in two matters. First, she didn't tell straight away what Emily told her about Aaron. Second, she adviced not to ask Aaron about the call which, although including risks, could reveal the Original Mole.

I think that Alex wants before all to protect her husband which isn't necessarily the same as what is necessary for his job as the leader of the contry.  

[jhlipton]

7 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Where is Miss Journalist who used to dig dirt?

This isn't some stupid trivial family matter so she's not interested!  Meta: she's one of the ancillary characters the new showrunner didn't keep.

[Roseanna]

5 hours ago, jhlipton said:

This isn't some stupid trivial family matter so she's not interested!  Meta: she's one of the ancillary characters the new showrunner didn't keep.

I agree that her concentration on Kiefer's son's paternity was stupid. According to the law the father of the child is the mother's husband, period. It's nobody else's business.

In addition, I didn't like her because she betayed Seth - although journalists must sometimes use dubious methods, that wasn't one of those occassions it was justified because of importantance of the subject. I couldn't understand Kiefer's words that "se keep us honest" as she wasn't honest herself. 

But she wasn't interested only in trivial family matters: she learned about the death of al-Sakir's leader in prison which means that she must have some very good sources. And Seth told her that Kiefer has promised her an exclusive interview about the subject.

So, in this new situation, it would be absolutely necessary to have a journalist who would make tough questions: How could the leader of al-Sakir die in prison? Why was the assassin killed? What's behind the death of Macleish and his wife? 

Actually, there is so many mysterious happenings that the suspection could be directed at POTUS himself.  He's the one who seems to get benefits of most of them.     

[kili]

Quote

For that matter, we have an organization of baddies that make a plan complex enough to secretly build a bomb shelter into the Capitol, and have their choice of President survive the blast that kills everyone else.  Why did they not bump off Kirkman at the same time?

Perhaps they actually want Kirkman as the figure head president? They ascertained that he was weak and easy to manipulate. Perhaps they weren't even aiming for him during the VP inauguration. Perhaps they were trying to kill the VP (he was clearly expendable) or even Aaron. If they were planning on manipulating Kirkman, Emily could be the moll. Emily manipulates - Mike uses his position to protect the figure head and redirect the investigation. They never thought anybody would keep Aaron around. Who keeps the last guy's chief of staff? You want your own trusted advisors.

Quote

I actually was glad that the writers went there and killed the young boy (even more happy that we did not have to see it...) as I am always amazed when t.v. characters BELIEVE terrorists, etc., about letting the family members live after someone does what they are told. 

Perhaps he was just hoping to buy time for somebody to find his son?

What I super, super liked is that the other FBI guy who was working with Hannah told her to forget about trying to find the son. He told her that he had three people who were better at recovering kidnap victims than her working on the problem and she should focus on what she was good at. I nearly cheered. So often, our protagonist law enforcement officer is the bestest at everything and drops the main problem to go work on side problems that are more personal. Thanks FBI guy for not letting her do that. That guy is so competent, he's probably part of the conspiracy.

I think fake lawyer lady went to the precinct to kill Hannah. It was just a bonus when she found out she was free.

[Roseanna]

4 hours ago, kili said:

I think fake lawyer lady went to the precinct to kill Hannah. It was just a bonus when she found out she was free.

Possibly, but how would she had done it without being the chief supect?

BTV, didn't Hannah have right to refuse to meet her? Why would she meet a person who was unknown to her? Has she any family? 

[Roseanna]

4 hours ago, kili said:

Who keeps the last guy's chief of staff? You want your own trusted advisors.

Usually, but Kirkman was no politician. He had nobody who had competence for the job.  I think he was right by chosing someone unlike himself. 

Only, it was curious that Aaron wasn't suspicious about Macleish. He was simply too good to be true.     

[kili]

Quote

Usually, but Kirkman was no politician. He had nobody who had competence for the job.  I think he was right by chosing someone unlike himself. 

I understand why Kirkman did it. I don't think the conspirators thought he would do it because it is unusual.

[Roseanna]

On ‎24‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 6:01 AM, kili said:

I understand why Kirkman did it. I don't think the conspirators thought he would do it because it is unusual.

Thank you for clarification.

However, that leaves the question of the phone call to deny the general the right to see the plan how to destroy the Congress. Did Aaron do it because he was a member of conspiracy or because somebody told him to do it and he didn't know what it was about (but who would he had obeyed without question?), or did somebody else use his phone line (actually that of his boss) or did the general lie?  

On ‎23‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 7:09 PM, kili said:

Perhaps he was just hoping to buy time for somebody to find his son?

Who? He didn't tell anybody that his son was missing. And after he gave a wink to Hannah, she didn't do nothing.  

[Roseanna]

On ‎16‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 9:03 PM, blackwing said:

I am suspicious of Alex.  The fact that the President went out of his way to tell Hannah and Mike that it was unnecessary to dismiss her... something is up with her.  She's trying to find out info and acts put out when she gets denied.  There has to be more to it than this.  She's probably a Russian sleeper agent like Angelina Jolie in "Salt".  That would also explain why her accent slipped in and out in the past.

I don't think that this scene proved anything other than (1) Secret service is incompetent: they shouldn't let Alex in when the President had secret meeting (2) Kirkman is still usused to his role, willing tell top-secrets to his wife although no security investigation hasn't made about her (3) Alex is childish to sulk after being excluded that should have been self-evident to her

 In addition, Mike said something essential: learning secret matters would put also Alex in danger. What if the conspiracy succceeded and Kirkman would be killed in the future? They would kill also all who know. Alex would be spared only if she is supposed not to know, and even if she doesn't care her own safety, she should care for their children who would be left orphans.    

On ‎17‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 0:33 AM, Princess Lucky said:

I thought Seth was trying to cheer up Emily, to restore her faith in America, so he wanted to sound like he's the embodiment of the American Dream (which he is). That's why he jokingly oversold his backstory, all "my parents were immigrants, we had nothing, but look at me now! And it's all thanks to the great US of A!". Meanwhile, Emily was like "dude, your dad was loaded." That was a playful moment, in my opinion. A joke between friends.

I thought the scene showed them both naive. Emily complained that, after working years in Washington, she had believed that perople can be trusted and had just discoved that it isn't true. And Seth recalled the meeting with Kirskman in the men's room - how he found the one person who is honest and etcerera. I could only roll my eyes.

What makes the irony of the scnene even greater is that either of them doesn't really know what's really going on.  Poor Kirkman whose only top-aide, Aaron, is a suspect and therefore can't help him.   

[Roseanna]

On ‎19‎.‎3‎.‎2017 at 2:13 PM, Princess Lucky said:

I agree, sadly. The mole can't be Aaron, because he's an extremely obvious red herring and suspicion fell on him way too early. It can't be Emily (I don't think, because she's been working with Kirkman since before any of this was even on the horizon), it can't be Seth (because Kirkman randomly picked him out and gave him the job), it can't be Hannah (she's gone through too much for her to be involved), so who else is left? Who would give us a surprising twist with an emotional payoff?

a) Alex (and I do suspect her as well, especially after this week),

b) Mike (the most obvious suspect, at this point, which might mean he's innocent after all),

and, like, c) Hookstraten? That'd be cool, but I do trust her, weirdly.

Kirkman truly trusts Mike, so he would feel completely betrayed. How about the scene in which Kirkman tells Mike he could have killed MacLeish with his bare hands? Maybe it was foreshadowing. What if Kirkman has to kill Mike, by the end of the season? Aw. Poor Mike.

I don't think neither of them is a mole. This isn't that kind of show.

Instead, I guess the mole is someone who has so far had only a little part or whom we haven't still even met.

[TobinAlbers]

On 3/26/2017 at 9:22 AM, Roseanna said:

Instead, I guess the mole is someone who has so far had only a little part or whom we haven't still even met.

As long as it isn't Wyatt. For some reason I love Kirkman's assistant.

Gonna be a tough road for the MacLeish kids. Both their parents were traitors and accessory to mass murder and the death of a president and mom killed dad to keep protect the cause. Hope they have have people to take care of them that change their names.

[John Potts]

Yay! Agent Nikita finally talked to the President! OTOH, what was she thinking when she thought her (former) boss was going to talk when he'd admitted to a capital (I think?) crime to save his son? Once they'd actually killed the son her pitch (would have) made sense. And did they just let the Atwood go? I presume he retracted his confession, but was that all it took to be released?

So, it's two steps forward, one step back with the conspiracy. And amazingly, chosing a guy simply because he survived the Capitol bombing turned out to be a terrible choice (would this be the shortest "reigning" VP in US history?). Should have chosen Hookstraten, even if she is from the "wrong" party - it would have been a show of unity to reach across party lines (though maybe they thought it was a little too much following in the footsteps of Commander in Chief where an Independent succeeded to the Presidency and appointed a VP from the "wrong" party).

On ‎3‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 3:11 AM, merylinkid said:

Finally some acknowledgment that the President can't just go spilling everything to everyone he wants to.   Although I have always felt the wife should be cleared because the president needs someone he trusts more than anyone else, who won't use the information against him.

I would think you'd want to clear her because she's also likely to pick up a lot of secrets accidentally. But she should be aware that Tom isn't always going to be able to share with her because she's a lawyer and should be aware that there are always going to be knowledge he simply can't share with her.

On ‎3‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 4:12 AM, shapeshifter said:

Having long been frustrated by the lack of physical consequences shown for TV injuries, and having had 6 hours of surgery last summer including removal of 6" of colon and 75% of my liver, I was actually impressed to see Keifer use the handrail on the hospital bed to pull himself up.

He's clearly slowing down in his old age. Back in 24, he was taking down commandos with his bare hands within hours of being dead!

On ‎3‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 7:52 AM, Happy Harpy said:

Ugh, the First Family. So unnecessary.

I'm no fan of the First Family, but I would think anyone would want their wife & kids around following life saving surgery (assuming they have them).

On ‎3‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 11:57 AM, waving feather said:

 I FEEL SO BAD FOR AARON. I don't think he is guilty, so it must have sucked knowing your colleagues, sort-of girlfriend and boss are investigating you. And now his access is restricted!

Except... they should be investigating him. Not because I think he is guilty, but because nobody should be above suspicion. And Aaron is one of the highest ranking survivors of the attack, so their suspicion is reasonable. Although I would definitely like some progress on exactly what the Conspiracy were trying to achieve with this attack.

On ‎3‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 1:39 PM, Netfoot said:

For that matter, we have an organization of baddies that make a plan complex enough to secretly build a bomb shelter into the Capitol, and have their choice of President survive the blast that kills everyone else.  Why did they not bump off Kirkman at the same time?  Perhaps someone knows what happens in the event of a total decapitation, including the designated survivor?  I would think that MacLeish, as the sole survivor, would be a shoe-in for the top job!

Except, constitutionally, that wouldn't be possible. As a Congressman he's ineligible to be in the line of succession (when Speaker John Goodman became acting President in The West Wing he had to resign his House seat first). Now granted, in an emergency situation the normal rules might be bypassed, but you'd assume Hookstraten would be a more likely candidate (she's politically senior to McCleish, I believe).