Sexuality in the SPNVerse

[Wayward Son]

I was originally going to post this in the Unpopular Opinions Thread. However, a friend suggested I might be better off starting a new thread, so those who may feel uncomfortable with detailed discussions relating to sexuality can choose to skip this (and future) discussions if they wish to. If a mod thinks I'm being too cautious and wishes to put this post in that thread that's totally cool and sorry for any inconvenience caused. 

So to kick start discussion.

Im not an expert in biology so maybe a more science inclined member can correct my reasoning, but in my opinion Castiel (and all other angels) should be bi-sexual in the strictest sense of the word with gender playing little to no part in who they romantically fall for. 

My reason for thinking this is that they aren't human they're "multi dimensional waves of celestial intent". The fact they aren't human, or indeed hold biological origins, means they lack a specific gender. Theoretically, they should also lack the biological impulses that makes humans attracted to certain people. 

In my opinion Its something akin to cross breeding . Therefore, Angels should either be asexual and utterly repelled by the idea of breeding with a different species (in the way us humans don't feel attracted to animals), or they are capable of sexual attraction, but the fact they aren't human themselves means their bonds with humans should be formed by them developing an appreciation for the personality and soul of a human rather than the gender they happen to be. 

Since we know from Castiel's attraction to females such as Meg or April (the vessel used by a reaper) and the existence of Nephilims that they are capable of being attracted to humans they can't be asexual. So I think it makes the most sense for them to be bisexual. 

P.S: I know the writers have established Dean as straight so please try and avoid turning this into a Destiel related discussion ;). My point is purely about the sexual nature of Angels. 

Edited March 11, 2017 by Wayward Son

[MysteryGuest]

We've been told by Castiel himself that angels are genderless, so I would consider them asexual rather than bisexual.  I don't believe they are sexual beings, at least not normally.  That may change if they're inhabiting a human vessel, but I'm not so sure.  Anna was an angel who fell and became human, so that doesn't count.  I know Cas had sex, but I'm not sure if it was actual desire or simply curiosity that drove that.  Obviously, he can feel affection, but does he really have sexual desire?  I don't think so.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

Im not an expert in biology so maybe a more science inclined member can correct my reasoning, but in my opinion Castiel (and all other angels) should be bi-sexual in the strictest sense of the word with gender playing little to no part in who they romantically fall for. 

In that case wouldn't they be pan sexual instead of bisexual? In any case since as @MysteryGuest stated regarding Castiel's assertion that the angels were genderless this is interesting to think about. I always saw his relationship with Meg as affectionate with a side of attraction on his end and the opposite on her end. Looking at his encounters with April and his boss at the Gas N' Sip in season 9 it would seem that kindness is also part of the attraction for him. Gabriel on the other hand was shown to be very sexual which makes me think that the angels as a whole are not asexual but rather it depends on the interests of the angel in question.

[ahrtee]

IIRC, the only time Cas actually had sex was with April when he was human.  I think by nature they're asexual (remember Dean calling Uriel "junkless" and him not bothering to contradict him.)  However, I think it's possible that, if an angel inhabits a vessel long enough, they can be influenced by the vessel's human hormones/desires (as Hannah was...sort of...becoming.)  Apparently even demons can be influenced by their vessels (as in the "teenage hormone" demon earlier...was it this season?)  And IA that if they *were* to develop sexual feelings, it wouldn't necessarily be related to gender*.  

OTOH, if angels were truly sexual beings on their own, I think there might be a lot more nephilim around, especially in the last few years since the angels fell.  

Since Cas's vessel was remade without his human soul, I think if he has any sexual desire it would probably be either memory or curiosity.  He certainly seemed more curious about Meg (and the pizza man) than any serious desire.  JMO.  

*ETA:  Though, if they were acting on the vessel's hormones/emotions, I  imagine their desires would correlate to the vessel's gender preference.  

Edited March 11, 2017 by ahrtee
another thought...

[Airmid]

To add to this, angels as far as we know do not have a need for procreation which is where the sex drive comes from. Given that they are genderless creatures and only assume a gender in the loosest terms possible when taking a vessel, I doubt they have a sexuality like we would understand it.

On top of this, angels in lore are supposed to love God in all ways, which does include what we would consider sexually I suppose. Now, an angel might redirect feelings that they once had for only God towards something else, which is where Castiel comes in. I'm not a destiel shipper by any means, but his obsession, devotion and at times possessiveness of Dean might be a good indicator of this. When God failed Cas, he turned to Dean and has stuck by him doggedly throughout the series. Am I suggesting that there's some sort of undertone to the relationship? No, not so much but at the same time Cas may have placed his feelings he once had for God towards a human who is flawed and is floundering through that.

But, and this is a big one, angels were supposed to be friendly towards mankind to the extent of them needing permission to be in their hosts. Could an angel influenced by their vessel feel certain things like Hannah did? Probably. They also probably wouldn't be able to understand it as well.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Apparently even demons can be influenced by their vessels (as in the "teenage hormone" demon earlier...was it this season?)

Yes, I think that was at the beginning of this season when they were trying to find Lucifer's new vessel.

Would God/Chuck factor in on this discussion also? He told Metatron that he had both girlfriends and boyfriends but despite his Chuck vessel shouldn't he be genderless and asexual also?

Edited March 11, 2017 by DeeDee79

[ahrtee]

Just now, DeeDee79 said:

Yes, I think that was at the beginning of this season when they were trying to find Lucifer's new vessel.

Thanks--the eps I hate tend to run in together and unless there's something specific I can connect to (like Leviathans or Gadreel) I can't remember what season they're from.  

[catrox14]

It seems to me that since Guck, was apparently bi/pansexual, and if there is any genetic component to sexuality, then I proffer that all angels are on a spectrum of pansexuality.

Edited March 11, 2017 by catrox14

[ahrtee]

44 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

Would God/Chuck factor in on this discussion also? He told Metatron that he had both girlfriends and boyfriends but despite his Chuck vessel shouldn't he be genderless and asexual also?

I think Chuck/god makes his own rules, and doesn't have to follow any of the ones he set for his "children".  And I think (JMO) that while he was on earth he was trying to experience everything he could about humans.  It doesn't necessarily mean preference or even desire, just curiosity.  And, of course, he had no judgment on anyone's choices.   

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It seems to me if Guck who was apparently/pansexual, if there is any genetic component to sexuality then I proffer that all angels are on a spectrum of pansexuality and that humans being created in Guck's image are bi/pansexual

Of course, you're talking genetics in relation to "multi dimensional waves of celestial intent."  Chuck himself was just a vessel (whether an avatar he created himself or the "real" Chuck the prophet) so human genetics wouldn't enter into it.  

[Commando Cody]

I did wonder, when Cas was Emmanuel, if he and his wife were actually having sex. They said they were married. I wondered what kind of relationship they had. 

[Airmid]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It seems to me that since Guck, was apparently bi/pansexual, and if there is any genetic component to sexuality, then I proffer that all angels are on a spectrum of pansexuality.

Personally, I don't know if I would consider the them sexual in any way without a vessel. Guck was milling around with a male vessel for who knows how long.

I think the earthly plan could inspire a more sexual drive but as creatures of light they don't particularly have one. Sexual desire is a need to procreate at it's base level. Angels have no need for this as angels are God's creation.

Now, if an angel found pleasure while in a vessel (which raises all kinds of consent issues not limited to canon Lucifer right now) that's a whole other ball of wax. But honestly, I have always seen angels as capable of complete love even on this series. Whether their love is healthy and productive, well that's a whole other story.

Just now, Commando Cody said:

I did wonder, when Cas was Emmanuel, if he and his wife were actually having sex. They said they were married. I wondered what kind of relationship they had. 

His wife was well, I don't have a good term for it that is polite.

She found him wandering naked in the woods without memory, took him in, married him, and just accepted his whole healing the sick thing. So yeah, if they did have a sexual relationship it wasn't what I would term healthy.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, ahrtee said:

Of course, you're talking genetics in relation to "multi dimensional waves of celestial intent."  Chuck himself was just a vessel (whether an avatar he created himself or the "real" Chuck the prophet) so human genetics wouldn't enter into it.  

I edited my comment to remove the human aspect of it.I forgot about Wayward Son's admonishment. Maybe we can put that discussion in a different thread. I have more thoughts about it but I don't want to derail the angel sexuality discussion. My apologies to everyone.

Of course, I was referring to the God in SPN Verse who is Guck. Chuck is God. God is Chuck. Hence Guck. IMO, if Guck himself is a multi-dimensional wave of celestial intent why would he say he was bisexual,and yes Guck saying he had boyfriends and girlfriends implies bisexuality. The other option is that Guck is asexual and panromantic 

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, Airmid said:

She found him wandering naked in the woods without memory, took him in, married him, and just accepted his whole healing the sick thing. So yeah, if they did have a sexual relationship it wasn't what I would term healthy.

I thought she believed she was "following God's word" or something--and that it was more a "spiritual" marriage than physical one.  Cas certainly didn't seem to have any interest in her (AFAIK, he never went back to even visit her after his memory was restored.)  I always wondered what she thought of that.

[Wayward Son]

Just now, catrox14 said:

I edited my comment to remove the human aspect of it.I forgot about Wayward Son's admonishment. Maybe we can put that discussion in a different thread. I have more thoughts about it but I don't want to derail the angel sexuality discussion. My apologies to everyone.

Of course, I was referring to the God in SPN Verse who is Guck. Chuck is God. God is Chuck. Hence Guck. IMO, if Guck himself is a multi-dimensional wave of celestial intent why would he say he was bisexual,and yes Guck saying he had boyfriends and girlfriends implies bisexuality. The other option is that Guck is asexual and panromantic 

I plan to respond to everyone properly tomorrow when I'm on the desktop, but I thought I should reply to this now. 

I only put that note in there because I wanted to avoid the Angel discussion going off track and turning into a Destiel debate. However, I intended for this overall thread to be for the discussion of all sexuality in the verse be it Angels, demons, humans, individual characters etc. So feel free to have a discussion on Guck's sexuality :) 

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Airmid said:

Sexual desire is a need to procreate at it's base level

I don't think sexual desire is defined by the need to procreate. 

[Airmid]

Just now, ahrtee said:

I thought she believed she was "following God's word" or something--and that it was more a "spiritual" marriage than physical one.  Cas certainly didn't seem to have any interest in her (AFAIK, he never went back to even visit her after his memory was restored.)  I always wondered what she thought of that.

The bitter opinion? She was a plot point to get from A to B. That's it. That's how Cas was taken care of during season seven.

Even if it's a more 'spiritual' marriage it's still skeevy. Who marries a man in the woods they found naked? Take care of, nourish, help - yeah that I can see. But the show went out of it's way to say she was his wife with no backup as to why and never visited her again. What was the point? Why even have her? I can get Cas needed help not knowing who he was but why married? There's never a good reason for this and she's rather a dim bulb to begin with regarding her husband while Dean dances around not knowing Cas to avoid all the other issues.

Personally, to me, it would have been better if this woman had just simply taken him in and discovered his healing ability with him. Then, after the demons, they helped her know what they were about and Dean thanked her privately as a friend. Except for the fact that the episode seemed far to focused on Sam.* If they had cut out some of Sam's hallucinations and given this a slightly better arc it would have been better, and left her in a good position to defend herself in case demons showed back up. Since Crowley was still against the big bads of the season and these were apparently working against him. Or something. Still not sure what they hoped to gain or Crowley for that matter if they came back.

* I don't hate Sam, I just think far too much time was spent on his trip to the mental ward in this episode compared to Dean saving him. It would have better to have it be Dean focused on saving him and small shots focused on Sam's suffering with his hallucinations rather than adding a ghost hunt to the mix. Would have also given time to dealing with random wife and Dean's feelings on his friend who had, essentially, betrayed them.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Airmid said:

His wife was well, I don't have a good term for it that is polite.

She found him wandering naked in the woods without memory, took him in, married him, and just accepted his whole healing the sick thing. So yeah, if they did have a sexual relationship it wasn't what I would term healthy.

Very good point. It would he along the lines of Cas's relationship with April the Reaper in season 9; a relationship borne from gratitude from perceived kindness.

4 hours ago, ahrtee said:

 I think by nature they're asexual (remember Dean calling Uriel "junkless" and him not bothering to contradict him.)

I took that as Uriel having such disdain for humans that he simply didn't see that need to address his statement. I could be wrong; season 4 isn't one that I rewatch so it's a bit fuzzy :)

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I don't think sexual desire is defined by the need to procreate. 

I don't think so either. I can't quote the biblical text regarding sex because I'm quite rusty in my recollections of what I've read but I believe that the act of intercourse was supposed to be intended for procreation only, not sexual desire.

[ahrtee]

14 minutes ago, Airmid said:

The bitter opinion? She was a plot point to get from A to B. That's it. That's how Cas was taken care of during season seven.

Even if it's a more 'spiritual' marriage it's still skeevy. Who marries a man in the woods they found naked? Take care of, nourish, help - yeah that I can see. But the show went out of it's way to say she was his wife with no backup as to why and never visited her again. What was the point? Why even have her? I can get Cas needed help not knowing who he was but why married? There's never a good reason for this and she's rather a dim bulb to begin with regarding her husband while Dean dances around not knowing Cas to avoid all the other issues.

Yup to her being a plot point and otherwise pointless.  I'm assuming she "married" him because otherwise?  *gasp* A naked man!  Living with her!  

TBH, my headcanon has been that Chuck (or some angel) either created her or possessed her *solely* for the purpose of rescuing Cas and keeping him safe till Dean found him.  And then, once he was safe on the right road again (because I believe that Chuck has been nudging Cas in the direction of "free will" all along, without actually giving him directions) the angel or whoever took off and wiped her memory, or rewrote it with a happy ending.  But again, that was just my way of explaining it to myself.  (Come to think of it, what was Naomi doing during that time?  Maybe she was trying to keep Cas sidelined with an angel watching him, and didn't expect Dean to find him?)  

14 minutes ago, Airmid said:

I just think far too much time was spent on his trip to the mental ward in this episode compared to Dean saving him. It would have better to have it be Dean focused on saving him and small shots focused on Sam's suffering with his hallucinations rather than adding a ghost hunt to the mix. Would have also given time to dealing with random wife and Dean's feelings on his friend who had, essentially, betrayed them.

IA with this completely.  Again, as you said, nothing against Sam, but there was no real reason for a ghost hunt in the mental hospital (except to show how strong Sam was about fighting against the craziness?... but that's heading into Bitch v. Jerk territory so I won't go into it here.)  But yes, I would have preferred more exploration of Dean and Cas's reunion--and all the anger/betrayal/guilt/bittersweet happiness that they *could have* gone into.  

4 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I took that as Uriel having such disdain for humans that he simply didn't see that need to address his statement.

I think it's also that he had such disdain for humans that he couldn't even *think* of consorting with the "mud monkeys".  But I was also thinking of Dean's comment that angels "don't have the equipment" to feel, and when they try it rips them apart.  

[Wayward Son]

In regards to The Born Again Identity I totally agree that the episode was a jumbled up mess. In my opinion there really should have been two episodes. One which acted as a climax to the Sam hallucinations storyline and another which focused on the return of Cas. The way they did it left most fans feeling shortchanged. Those who are fans of Sam and the Sam/Dean bond felt shortchanged because the episode didn't have time to properly focus on it due to the time used up  by Cas' return, those who are fans of Cas and Cas/Dean felt similar annoyance about his return, which was meant to be a pretty big ep for him, being downplayed by important Sam stuff also occurring. Those, like myself, who are fans of both got to experience double the annoyance. 

In my opinion episode 16 should have been the climax to the Sam storyline and I'd keep Sera Gamble as the writer for that one. Episode 17 would then focus on the return of Cas and it would have been written by Ben Edlund. 

And as for Daphne I would agree she was nothing but plot device. Personally, I tend to try and go for the simplest solution to unclear facts. So in my opinion Cas and Daphne were married. Generally married couples engage in sexual intercourse. Since the show didn't make a point of showing us that this generalisation didn't apply to them I am going to assume Emmanuel (Cas) and Daphne were having sex. 

Edited March 12, 2017 by Wayward Son

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Airmid said:

and Dean's feelings on his friend who had, essentially, betrayed them

Agreed. Cas only realized who he was and what he had done to Sam moments before they arrived and he took on Sam's wall. He could have recovered this memory while they were en route and had his closure with Dean which would have been more satisfying to watch than Sam's mental ward ghost hunting.

[Airmid]

5 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I don't think so either. I can't quote the biblical text regarding sex because I'm quite rusty in my recollections of what I've read but I believe that the act of intercourse was supposed to be intended for procreation only, not sexual desire.

The very act of sex itself is to procreate. End of story. Whether or not it feels good or is pleasurable to parties involved it is meant to be a continuation of the species. If one wants to take on evolution then that can also be accounted for. In fact sex feeling good could very well get a species to do it to provide more viable babies.

Angels don't procreate at all in this verse. They don't make more of themselves. The have no need of sex outside of pleasure and that's only to do with their physical vessels (which again raises some serious consent issues). While cupids have been sent to help bloodlines breed in the series it is never implies that a cupid can create love, or even the highest angels. The can infest that love, make it grow till other misgivings fall aside. But still, angels have no need for sex. Lucifer as an example only did what he did because he desire to create and had to willfully do so to get his child. Grigori are a poor example in this show because they feed off human souls and probably had no remorse for any of the children they created among woman.

Innate sexual desire can always be contributed to procreation as most of the population leans towards the ability to do so. It's what sex does. Sex is for kids. It's pleasurable but mating is what brings offspring to a species.

Don't get me wrong - I think sex between two people can be true intimacy and full of enjoyment but I'm going by the rules of this show regardless of gender. Biblical verses - well they aren't so kind to laying with the same gender. Though surprisingly in the Old Testament if a woman is not satisfied and is not granted offspring by her husband she can divorce him. I'd have to look up the verse on that one, but it is an interesting subject.

1 minute ago, Wayward Son said:

In regards to The Born Again Identity I totally agree that the episode was a jumbled up mess. In my opinion there really should have been two episodes. One which acted as a climax to the Sam hallucinations storyline and another which focused on the return of Cas. The way they did it left most fans feeling shortchanged. Those who are fans of Sam and the Sam/Dean bond felt shortchanged because the episode didn't have time to properly focus on it due to the time used up  by Cas' return, those who are fans for Cas felt similar annoyance about his return (a pretty big ep) for him being limited by Sam stuff also occurring. Those, like myself, who are fans of both got to experience double the annoyance. 

In my opinion episode 16 should have been the climax to the Sam storyline and I'd keep Sera Gamble as the writer of the. Episode 17 would then focus on the return of Cas and it would have been written by Ben. 

And as for Daphne I would agree she was nothing but plot device. Personally, I tend to try and go for the simplest solution to unclear facts. So in my opinion Cas and Daphne were married. Generally married couples engage in sexual intercourse. Since the show didn't make a point of showing us that this doesn't apply to them I am going to assume this norm applies to Emmanuel (Cas) and Daphne. 

I think it should have been two episodes, especially given that it took into account a major character suffering severe trauma. Amy Pond could have been jettisoned to provide a better viewpoint of what was going on with Sam, Dean's desperation, Cas' return and just not having a ghost hunt. Sam doesn't need to have a hunt at every movement of his life. Neither brother does.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Airmid said:

The very act of sex itself is to procreate. End of story. Whether or not it feels good or is pleasurable to parties involved it is meant to be a continuation of the species.

Yes, this is what I meant. There is nothing in the bible about desire, only sex being essential only for procreation.

3 hours ago, Airmid said:

Though surprisingly in the Old Testament if a woman is not satisfied and is not granted offspring by her husband she can divorce him

And men laying with their daughters was accepted and commonplace. Strange times.

Edited March 12, 2017 by DeeDee79

[Airmid]

3 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

And men laying would their daughters was accepted and commonplace. Strange times.

Oh Lot and his daughters. I always think of this when discussing this sort of thing. They got him drunk then 'laid' with him. How creepy is that?

Not to mention that Lot was willing to send his daughters out to get...erm...raped while defending angels back when God was considering Sodom and Gomorrah when the angels came.

Not exactly the testament to family values.

I think a lot of it misses the intimacy that two people have and instead focuses on depravity that humans can achieve when powered completely by lust/power. To me, personally, I think this is the big lesson of these verses. That those in some sort of powerful position can use it to get what they want. Instead we kind of ended up with no intimacy between any gender and yay, sex as only procreation. I think it misses the point.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Airmid said:

Oh Lot and his daughters. I always think of this when discussing this sort of thing. They got him drunk then 'laid' with him. How creepy is that?

Not to mention that Lot was willing to send his daughters out to get...erm...raped while defending angels back when God was considering Sodom and Gomorrah when the angels came.

Not exactly the testament to family values.

I think a lot of it misses the intimacy that two people have and instead focuses on depravity that humans can achieve when powered completely by lust/power. To me, personally, I think this is the big lesson of these verses. That those in some sort of powerful position can use it to get what they want. Instead we kind of ended up with no intimacy between any gender and yay, sex as only procreation. I think it misses the point.

Extremely creepy considering that they felt that raping their father under the influence was their only option in their situation along with the multiple wives that were commonplace.

[SueB]

As a species, I think Angels have no gender and no sexuality.  They do not procreate.  They are multi-dimensional beings of celestial intent. That's it.

WHEN they take a vessel, I believe Angel's are influence by the vessel.  And that influence may last AFTER they've left the vessel.  

My best example is actually Hannah.  Hannah started to enjoy showers.  She clearly was starting to fall for Castiel.  And when Caroline (her vessel) cried out when placed in the same room as her husband, Hannah realized how easy it was to adopt 'human' comforts.

To me, this is how sex because a thing for the Angels.  They are subjected to the impact of the human vessel's reactions.  They became aware of attraction and desire.  IF there is any predisposition to a sexual orientation that comes from biology, then IMO that comes from the human vessel.  Because the Angels, as a species, have no biological imperative for sex. No point of reference until they experience that via human host. OTOH, just like humans, once they experience sexual 'awareness', I'm not sure they are concerned about gender or orientation unless they experience an influence from their host.

I think it's inappropriate to equate the Angel species with the human species PRIOR to an Angel taking a vessel.  Once they experience that, IMO, their viewpoint could be influenced.   

[Mick Lady]

4 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

Yes, I think that was at the beginning of this season when they were trying to find Lucifer's new vessel.

Would God/Chuck factor in on this discussion also? He told Metatron that he had both girlfriends and boyfriends but despite his Chuck vessel shouldn't he be genderless and asexual also?

Good point!

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Mick Lady said:

Good point!

Thank you! :*)

[Airmid]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

I think it's inappropriate to equate the Angel species with the human species PRIOR to an Angel taking a vessel.  Once they experience that, IMO, their viewpoint could be influenced.   

I think part of it depends on the vessel, at least earlier seasons. Castiel wasn't influenced by taking Claire over Jimmy because of sensations merely that Jimmy would benefit him more during the Rapture.

Given Lily Sunders we can assume Jimmy was not the first vessel that Castiel or any angel took which opens a whole can of worms as to how much the vessel can influence the angel. Does the vessel influence the angel or does the angel's willingness to listen change things? Hannah is a poor example really seeing how they bungled that as Hannah should have had her vessel's soul under wraps for a long time. Still her vessel cries out to her husband, responds to touch and human pleasures. It could be argued that it was seeping into the angel.

I think in this case it was poor writing but we'll roll with it.

Castiel has no soul with him. The most he had in like six-seven years is Lucifer crammed in there after his stupid plan of saying yes. How does that account for much? He was prideful, insane, willful, bucked against humans and heaven, went against the human he loved the most wishes and took off the MoC, turned human and seemed to blame everyone else. Not to mention Castiel's loyalty to Dean, even warped, was with and without a Jimmy Novak floating around in there.

It could be argued that Dean inadvertently taught angels free will through Castiel and caused the downfall of heaven (not that a lot was holding heaven together after the departure of Michael, to a lesser extent Raphael) but I don't think it was the soul with him in season four that caused those issues.

[Mick Lady]

1 hour ago, SueB said:

My best example is actually Hannah.  Hannah started to enjoy showers.  She clearly was starting to fall for Castiel.  And when Caroline (her vessel) cried out when placed in the same room as her husband, Hannah realized how easy it was to adopt 'human' comforts.

This was something I've been thinking about since I read Wayward Son's first post. A shower is a physical pleasure, so is sex. Hannah experiencing this is just the beginning, IMO, of what happens when they inhabit a vessel for a period of time.

Edited March 12, 2017 by Mick Lady
spelling counts, damn it!

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Mick Lady said:

This was something I've been thinking about since I read Wayward Son's first post. A shower is a physical pleasure, so is sex. Hannah experiencing this is just the beginning, IMO, of what happens when they inhabit a vessel for a period of time.

Which makes me curious and goes back to my point about Gabriel:  are these experiences down to the individual angel or all angels as a whole? The closest that we've seen Castiel have a similar longing was when he had the red meat craving due to Famine's close proximity but even then he recognized that it wasn't his longing but rather a preference of his vessel. Other than that I can't recall him ever enjoying basic human comforts. That being said he has expressed emotion for those that he holds dear such as the Winchesters and Meg which are definitely human traits.

[Mick Lady]

5 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

Gabriel on the other hand was shown to be very sexual which makes me think that the angels as a whole are not asexual but rather it depends on the interests of the angel in question.

Or the interest of the vessel they inhabit. Gabriel's sexual interest was on a Dean like level. Gabriel also enjoyed food, which always confused me. Cas never did until they were dealing with Gluttony.

Now I have to go check Super-wiki. Another night spent in that endless hole!

I had to add,  I always "shipped' Cas and Meg! I love Meg! And Rowena, so what does that say about me?!

Edited March 12, 2017 by Mick Lady

[Airmid]

15 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

Or the interest of the vessel they inhabit. Gabriel's sexual interest was on a Dean like level. Gabriel also enjoyed food, which always confused me. Cas never did until they were dealing with Gluttony.

Now I have to go check Super-wiki. Another night spent in that endless hole!

I had to add,  I always "shipped' Cas and Meg! I love Meg! And Rowena, so what does that say about me?!

I'd say either Gabriel's enjoyment of food was him being an archangel, him knowing how to control the body he was just possessing or just a writing plot hole

With this staff, I'd say a plot whole even though I enjoyed Gabriel's enjoyments of the physical plane as a replacement for what he had lost.

My head canon is that Meg was changed when Cas tossed her into the holy fire which allowed for her to form attachments that she wouldn't normally have. I read an review of one of their episodes together and personally I agree with the review that Meg was Kundry from Parsifal. She sought and perhaps found some sort of redemption at the end with her defending what she saw as her 'loved ones' with her life.

[Mick Lady]

1 hour ago, Airmid said:

I agree with the review that Meg was Kundry from Parsifal

Oh My God! (Yes, I spelled it out!) Another Opera lover! And Wagner!

Airmid, I so glad to find you here! Welcome to our crazy gang!

Edited March 12, 2017 by Mick Lady

[Airmid]

12 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

Oh My God! (Yes, I spelled it out!) Another Opera lover! And Wagner!

Airmid, I so glad to find you here! Welcome to our crazy gang!

Pfft you might rethink that if I ever get around to the bitterness thread and my rant. I think it's five pages in Word....

But thank you, I've always likes the feel of things here despite being a lurker for so long. :)

[sarthaz]

Gabriel's lust and gluttony could also just be part of his persona.  Remember, he's been hiding out as Loki for countless generations.

[Airmid]

34 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

Gabriel's lust and gluttony could also just be part of his persona.  Remember, he's been hiding out as Loki for countless generations.

It may also be that Gabriel had a personality that was more prone to do such things to begin with. Some Angels like Balth seemed to enjoy human stuff while other's seem to have problems with the concept of how to start a conversation. Whether this is from past vessel experience, personality inherent to each angel, plot hole maybe, etc - no idea.

[rue721]

Maybe Gabriel was just neurotic. Comfort eating, and looking for validation from the females of the species.

[Katy M]

On ‎3‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 8:13 PM, DeeDee79 said:

Yes, this is what I meant. There is nothing in the bible about desire, only sex being essential only for procreation.

Song of Solomon.

[DeeDee79]

8 hours ago, Katy M said:

Song of Solomon.

Ok then. The bible primarily mentions sex in regards to procreation in regards to when you should engage.

[catrox14]

SPN does not adhere to a strict reading of the Bible or any other lore or mythology they use. They subvert everything all the time. God didn't have a sister in the Bible, not that I know of. God was probably not bisexual or pansexual unless he was. God is bisexual/pansexual in the SPN universe. Chuck didn't say his desire for men and women came from Chuck's vessel. Why would we presume it did? It's Guck.

What does gender mean to a multidimensional wave of celestial intent anyway?

Sexual desire amongst humans exists between members of the same gender who do not procreate. Sex is A method of procreation but one can procreate without sexual intercourse. 

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

SPN does not adhere to a strict reading of the Bible or any other lore or mythology they use.

I'm glad that they don't. I would hate to see how they would present Jesus.

Edited March 14, 2017 by DeeDee79

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

What does gender mean to a multidimensional wave of celestial intent anyway?

Nothing, as far as I can see.  Neither should sex/procreation/desire.  Especially if there's no physical body involved.

[catrox14]

25 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Nothing, as far as I can see.  Neither should sex/procreation/desire.  Especially if there's no physical body involved.

What I mean is what is gender in the multidimensional wavelength species.

In this show angels are referred to as being junkless.

But what does that really mean? 

Does "junkless" mean "genderless". If it means "genderless" does that mean they lack sexual organs OR does it mean they are gender fluid meaning they don't identify as any particular gender?

And since gender is unrelated to sexual orientation, maybe an angel does have sexual desires that come from their  multidimensional waves? 

I think that is where the disconnect is for me with the idea that an angel can't have sexual desire of their own because it's presuming that it can only come from a human vessel.

[ahrtee]

17 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

What I mean is what is gender in the multidimensional wavelength species.

In this show angels are referred to as being junkless.

But what does that really mean? 

Does "junkless" mean "genderless". If it means "genderless" does that mean they lack sexual organs OR does it mean they are gender fluid meaning they don't identify as any particular gender?

And since gender is unrelated to sexual orientation, maybe an angel does have sexual desires that come from their  multidimensional waves? 

I think that is where the disconnect is for me with the idea that an angel can't have sexual desire of their own because it's presuming that it can only come from a human vessel.

I don't think a "multidimensional wavelength" has any gender.  Gender is irrelevant except for procreation, and in some species is even unnecessary. 

IIRC Dean was the only one who referred to one angel--Uriel--as "junkless," which was just his form of insult, like getting out the rulers.  Vessels obviously have sexual organs, but if the angels occupying them have no need/no interest/no experience with actually using them, they're also irrelevant.  Anna called sex one of the perks of being human, implying that angels *didn't* have sex.

I'm not sure if a being without a physical body, or a fluid, amorphous body (since descriptions have ranged from "the size of your Chrysler building" to "in heaven I have six faces, one of which is a lion,") can have sexual desire, since it seems to me that, while the emotion of "love" can be created solely by the mind, you need a body to act on physical desires.  But again, JMO.  

[Airmid]

3 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Nothing, as far as I can see.  Neither should sex/procreation/desire.  Especially if there's no physical body involved.

While in their original form yes, but it is interesting that the show changed the Grigori's history (feeding on souls instead of the real world version of creating nelphilim) yet angel/human children exist in canon. Which makes one wonder what an angel's motivation for children is - especially given that Lucifer had to willfully create his own child, it didn't happen by accident.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Figured I'd put this here, due to the subject nature.  I know this isn't exactly the topic for which this thread was started, but it falls under the title, imo.  Also: possible UO alert!  (And I think I messed up the quote boxes, but oh well...)

Quote

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Quote

  8 HOURS AGO, AHRTEE SAID:

So by those standards, in The Slice Girls, when Dean was pretending to be a successful businessman who spoke Japanese, and his hookup was pretending to be a non-Amazon human being, who was being "raped" there?

This is a good question actually. Dean gave his real name and lied about his job and she lied about being a monster who was seeking to procreate without telling her victim that is what she was doing. 

 In this situation, I don't think anyone was raped.  They both consented to have sex.  Period.  Did each of them lie for various purposes?  Sure.  Happens all the time irl.  That doesn't make it rape.  So the amazon wanted to get pregnant.  Dean also conveniently 'forgot' to use a condom.  And even if he had used one, there's still a possibility she could have gotten pregnant.  The only 100% guarantee of no pregnancy is abstinence.  

[Wayward Son]

I'd be happy to PM a mod and ask them to rename the thread to something that encompasses all potential sexual issues such as sexuality, consent etc?

[RulerofallIsurvey]

23 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

I'd be happy to PM a mod and ask them to rename the thread to something that encompasses all potential sexual issues such as sexuality, consent etc?

Oh, I think the title is fine the way it is!  Sorry, didn't mean to imply that.  :)  I was just saying, that my post above wasn't particularly why the thread was started, as far as I could tell, but I think it certainly falls under the umbrella of the topic of "Sexuality in the Supernatural Verse".  

[SueB]

3 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Figured I'd put this here, due to the subject nature.  I know this isn't exactly the topic for which this thread was started, but it falls under the title, imo.  Also: possible UO alert!  (And I think I messed up the quote boxes, but oh well...)

 In this situation, I don't think anyone was raped.  They both consented to have sex.  Period.  Did each of them lie for various purposes?  Sure.  Happens all the time irl.  That doesn't make it rape.  So the amazon wanted to get pregnant.  Dean also conveniently 'forgot' to use a condom.  And even if he had used one, there's still a possibility she could have gotten pregnant.  The only 100% guarantee of no pregnancy is abstinence.  

I always thought the look on his face might have been him remembering HER putting on the condom on him with an opportunity to make a hole (via bite or nail).  Or else he was seriously distracted.