S08.E16: I Was Feeling Epic

dreamcatcher · March 17, 2017

On 16/3/2017 at 10:58 AM, kelaney said:

1). Did Katherine have to be IN hell when the hell fire bounced back on itself or standing in the path of the hell fire? Either way, why did Stefan or Damon have to die with her? Couldn't they have stabbed her right as the fire was coming and left her either in hell or unconscious in its path? Out of all the mcguffins/deux ex machina/random miracles they've pulled out over the years, was this just as excuse to really kill Stefan?

That was my biggest issue with Stefan's death tbh. Even if he was going to die anyway because he gave the cure to Damon (which I never understood as plot point because at first Katherine was shown to be ageing fast because Silas drained her and something something doppelganger issues), he would still have enough time to say goodbye to his brother, his friends and oh well you know, his wife.

2). Was hell destroyed? What about the people there like poor Georgie? Are we to assume the people we like got out when the bell started ringing but everyone else went poof?

I would guess that they all went poof. Then again Vicky was glad to do this because she wanted to "vanish" and yet in the end she was there with Tyler so I guess she somehow left hell uhm alive? You know, alive in death just not dead dead like those who were in hell. God this show is confusing :p Anyway I don't get how exactly she survived this but ok.

5.So poor Caroline may never see her loved ones again? Can Bonnie merge poor lonely Enzo's afterlife with the Mystic Falls after party?

Bonnie can do whatever the story needs, just like she somehow found a way around Kai's spell. So my guess is that she can do that as well. And yes Caroline- according to what they've told us- has to be killed to go find them.

I'm also a bit confused with the Originals timeline. I don't really watch the show because I hate the whole pregnancy thing AND I think they completely change the originals' characters. But anyway, I know that Klaus for some reason fell for that Caroline replica who then died and he still likes her and whatever. So I'm guessing this letter came years after Camille's death? Or is Klaus kind of bipolar?

Aeryn13 · March 17, 2017

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But anyway, I know that Klaus for some reason fell for that Caroline replica who then died and he still likes her and whatever. So I'm guessing this letter came years after Camille's death? Or is Klaus kind of bipolar?

The timelines of both shows didn`t match up anymore. A letter from Klaus to Caroline only makes sense with an additional time jump of about two years. Which I think tracks with the ending of TVD. The school seemed to be up and running so I`d say at least two years from the point of Stefan`s death.

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I'm just bitter because despite the years of people claiming the show gave Stefan a pass over Damon, actually Stefan's crimes were brought up far more often or treated with consequences than Damon's ever were.

I think that had more to do with how the show started. Stefan began as an outright albeit tortured good guy and Damon was clearly the villain for the first few episodes. So we saw him so villainous things all over the place. Whereas they introduced Stefan`s dark past later in the Season and more fully in Season 2. And that was done via show not tell because Stefan himself wasn`t dark on the show during those times. Off the rocker in Miss Mystic Falls, yes, but not truly dark.

But they were very clear in having a "good" and a "bad" brother, it was even promo stuff and Stefan referred himself like this, saying "I`m the good brother, I don`t do this". For me personally, being really simplistic about this even beyond those first few episodes where the stark divide was warranted and driving that point into the ground made me feel Stefan got a pass more easily. I liked the more nuanced version of the character in Season 3 soooo much better. He still got narrative hero-worshipping after actually seeing dark!Stefan present time and not just hearing about him but it wasn`t like being repeatedly hit over the head with a mega-anvil anymore.

That said, while I was glad Damon got a happy ending, I absolutely would have wanted one for Stefan too. They handwaved so much in the last (few) Season(s) and even the Finale itself, if they wanted to, they could have easily gotten around the "only one dose of the cure". Now I don`t believe Caroline would have turned back, even for Stefan, but they still could have had a happy life together.

Maybe they thought a really sweet-happy ending for everyone would have been too schmaltzy? Yet I felt they poured plenty of sugary nostalgia on things so Stefan making it out alive and dying after a human life as well as Damon and Elena wouldn`t have been too much more IMO.

Aeryn13 · March 17, 2017

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Huh? When did Stefan ever say this?

In the Miss Mystic Falls ep. He has taken Amber, one of the contestants, and rambles to himself about whether he should drink her blood or not. He is clearly trying to psyche himself up for either one thing or the other but I always believed his words more or less accurately mirrored his overall mindset. This was what he told himself to differentiate himself from the Ripper.

Affogato · March 17, 2017

On 3/10/2017 at 9:12 PM, Artsda said:

Glad Alaric made Caroline choose her kids first. She had been written as a terrible mom always picking Stefan and everyone else over her kids. Sadly, I think Stefan had to die in order for her to even put her girls first.

Reveal hidden contents

Alaric is supposed to make a guest appearance in the new season.

Well there is the old vampire saw that she would naturally choose the kids first because in 80 years she can bury them and move on, when will she get another chance at this, and then again technically they weren't her children and they were staying with their actual father.

In reality, though, people do have lives in addition to having children and there was a lot going on with her other loved ones at this time, some of which she was pretty sure she was also going to outlive. Children are part of life, not instead of life.

This show always seemed to move along, pretty talking head to pretty talking head, emotional moment with only short term continuity. At the beginning it didn't matter if they looked too old to be in high school because there was a sense of unreality to the whole thing. Stephan and Damon seemed beyond redemption, but Damon in particular, and for all of the you know, whining and tearing of hair, nothing seemed to happen with those storylines. Still this episode, like the rest of the show, was played with a straight face and I bought it even when it didn't make sense. I wish they had done more with Bonnie, Matt and Tyler rather than brining in Enzo and I almost forgot Damon and Stephan's mother.

The afterlife seemed like the afterlife in Kelley Armstrong's Otherworld series, I wonder if that is part of the Vampire Diary books or if Plec just picked it up to give the happy ending? In that case supernaturals did end up in different afterlives, sometimes, but I'm pretty sure this lot just were in a reconstructed Mystic Falls forever.

At the end of last season I hoped Damon would be a batman avenger sort of figure, trying for redemption, and I'm sorry it didn't happen.

14 hours ago, dreamcatcher said:

On 3/16/2017 at 3:58 AM, kelaney said:

5.So poor Caroline may never see her loved ones again? Can Bonnie merge poor lonely Enzo's afterlife with the Mystic Falls after party?

Bonnie can do whatever the story needs, just like she somehow found a way around Kai's spell. So my guess is that she can do that as well. And yes Caroline- according to what they've told us- has to be killed to go find them.

I'm also a bit confused with the Originals timeline. I don't really watch the show because I hate the whole pregnancy thing AND I think they completely change the originals' characters. But anyway, I know that Klaus for some reason fell for that Caroline replica who then died and he still likes her and whatever. So I'm guessing this letter came years after Camille's death? Or is Klaus kind of bipolar?

Can someone please go get Kai and put him somewhere else? These pocket universes have got to be unstable.

Klaus probably is bipolar. He really seemed like one of the few you could actually like, but we were told he was crazyevil. He likely needed blood laced with lithium.

Aeryn13 · March 17, 2017

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Yeah, I doubt that one would count.

I`m not saying it has to for anyone else but it does for me because it fits perfectly with my understanding of the character. It was more Stefan`s way of living with himself and what he had done vs. what he felt for his brother which was also complex.

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The afterlife seemed like the afterlife in Kelley Armstrong's Otherworld series, I wonder if that is part of the Vampire Diary books or if Plec just picked it up to give the happy ending?

They at least had set it up in a way when the Other Side was destroyed in the Season 5 Finale and some characters got sucked into what was apparently hell whereas others smiled beatifically and "found peace". That implied some sort of heaven so I found it really fitting that in the Finale here Lexi was the one who welcomed Stefan to it. Because she was one of the peace-finding-people.

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At the end of last season I hoped Damon would be a batman avenger sort of figure, trying for redemption, and I'm sorry it didn't happen.

Stefan turned human a few episodes before and they didn`t really show much about how the transition back was for him, how he was coping without the strenght, speed, healing factor. I mean, he was a vampire much longer than he was a human. Sheer force of habit should have made it incredibly hard for him.

With Damon, because they really rushed through the final moments to get to the afterlife, it was barely nothing. I can buy him not focusing on his own humanity in the wake of Stefan`s death but it`s Damon, whatever did he do with a human life? Even with Klaus, I could at least imagine him painting. Damon? We never really even saw him have a hobby that could lend itself to a career. The Batman-like angle would have been really cool but I think for that, he would have needed to stay a vamp. Which is ironic because the point of Batman is no superpowers.

Aeryn13 · March 17, 2017

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Didn't they make a point of having an entire episode devoted to Stefan's Humilation Conga? From being the only vampire whose compulsions got de-compelled, to being the only person in this show, human or supernatural, to ever get arrested? Not to mention getting shot, almost dying because the Cured vampires can't be healed with vampire blood?

I actually meant the little things. Like, after living as an immortal vampire for over a century, you would go into certain situations with a different attitude than a human would. Only the scene with Kai gave me a little bit of that because I felt that Stefan approached him as he would were he still a vamp IMO. He carried himself as if he was still immortal and self-healing. Then Kai stabbed through his hand and it was like "fuck, this is different now". I would expect such moments from a newly-turned-human-vamp.

Or, trying to use a compulsion, simply out of habit in certain situations. Even back in Season 4 when everyone rambled about getting the cure, such scenarios were all I could think about. Heck, with the ever-beloved neck-snapping they did all the time, I would have half-expected one of the vamps to forget about a vamp being human and then go "OMG, no, I killed them".

The scene with Dorian somehow played out differently to me. In that one Stefan came across more like human all the way through.

Elena`s transition back was equally poorly handled but at least she had been a human much longer than a vamp.

Lady Calypso · March 18, 2017

4 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I actually meant the little things. Like, after living as an immortal vampire for over a century, you would go into certain situations with a different attitude than a human would. Only the scene with Kai gave me a little bit of that because I felt that Stefan approached him as he would were he still a vamp IMO. He carried himself as if he was still immortal and self-healing. Then Kai stabbed through his hand and it was like "fuck, this is different now". I would expect such moments from a newly-turned-human-vamp.

Very true. But the show stopped caring about anything Stefan in favor of Damon about the end of season 4, into season 5. Example when Stefan died and Elena/Damon had two seconds of "Oh...Stefan's dead...well, he'll be back" and then a whole lot of "I'm going to die with you, Damon, so we can save the Afterlife or something". For a main character's actual death, Stefan deserved more back in the season 5 finale than just a shrug of the shoulders. Caroline was the only one to actually mourn his death. His death was treated like Tyler's death. That's when I figured out that Stefan was not going to get any happy ending because Damon became the more important brother, and he would not get the proper scenes that he needed as a main character.

I'll bet if there had been more than an hour for the finale, Damon would have gotten those small detailed moments.

WhosThatGirl · March 18, 2017

I'm considering rewatching the whole series again, but yeah the big brotherly bond that we got isn't what the show was about. The show was only about romance and more specifically the Elena triangle with the brothers.

I wonder if Nina and Ian's romance changed the direction of the show? Like if they had never gotten together romantically would the characters? I'm also asking as someone who never read the books so I no reference to that either.

WhosThatGirl · March 18, 2017

25 minutes ago, doram said:

Well the book series were continued after the original 4 books were concluded; and depending on who you ask, the books's "canon" is either the "official" continuation by Alloy Publishers, written by the ghost-writer that replaced LJ Smith (the author of the first 4 "Vampire Diaries" books published in the 90s) or the "licensed fanfiction" version being published by LJ Smith on Amazon Kindle worlds. Neither series are completed, but the original writer seemed inclined to an SE/BD ending.

All that aside, I think the Damon*-centric slant of this show post-season 2 says more about Ian Somerhalder's relationship with Julie Plec, than his relationship with Nina Dobrev.

*(And I say Damon-centric, not Delena-centric, because even when the "official couple" was Stelena, Stefan did not dominate every aspect of this show the way Damon would come to do. Stelena was also written as a relationship between Stefan and Elena, furthering both their stories. Delena was written purely as a vehicle for Damon, with Elena being sanded down, flattened and reduced to Damon's "girl" by it.)

Thanks for the info. I just figured it was more Ian and Nina were dating and the showrunners thought it would be a good idea to get them together. But I've always wondered if the books had something to do with it? I always wondered how paint by numbers the show was from the books.

ketose · March 18, 2017

The short answer to the timeline is that VD time-jumped about 3 years and Originals time-jumped about 5 years. So, Caroline could have gotten a check about two years after Stefan died, depending on how long it takes for Klaus to get out of his predicament this season.

TaylorBruh25 · March 18, 2017

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

Very true. But the show stopped caring about anything Stefan in favor of Damon about the end of season 4, into season 5. Example when Stefan died and Elena/Damon had two seconds of "Oh...Stefan's dead...well, he'll be back" and then a whole lot of "I'm going to die with you, Damon, so we can save the Afterlife or something". For a main character's actual death, Stefan deserved more back in the season 5 finale than just a shrug of the shoulders. Caroline was the only one to actually mourn his death. His death was treated like Tyler's death. That's when I figured out that Stefan was not going to get any happy ending because Damon became the more important brother, and he would not get the proper scenes that he needed as a main character.

I'll bet if there had been more than an hour for the finale, Damon would have gotten those small detailed moments.

Bonnie and Enzo actually showed more emotion to Stefan's death than Damon and Elena. If there's a giant takeaway from a good episode, (besides Elena killing herself for no reason, which became the dumbest moment in the series) it's Damon and Elena no-selling Stefan's death.

1 hour ago, WhosThatGirl said:

I'm considering rewatching the whole series again, but yeah the big brotherly bond that we got isn't what the show was about. The show was only about romance and more specifically the Elena triangle with the brothers.

I wonder if Nina and Ian's romance changed the direction of the show? Like if they had never gotten together romantically would the characters? I'm also asking as someone who never read the books so I no reference to that either.

The triangles been dead since Season 4. If we're being technical, 4x06. Elena's mind was made up way before that finale. The triangle didn't even truly begin until 1x11. The entire first 10 episodes is an entire Stefan vs Damon feud. If you ask me, the show's been about them coming together from the start, the triangle was a giant selling point(if we're being honest only worked because of Twilights hype) and as much romance as their was in the show it was always heavy on the Supernatural plots and action. Them always being at the high school (or a dance) made it feel like a pure teen romance but 90% of their high school dialogue is about taking down or finding out more about a giant Supernatural threat.

The family storyline focus doesn't only include the Salvatore's. Elena whole outlook in the pilot was grief from her parents death, her biggest loss in this show was when Jeremy (her brother) died. Bonnie's big reuniting moment was cut off from Jeremy and immediately overshadowed by Elena and Caroline. The climax of the S1 finale is despite everything Stefan couldn't let his brother die. Same thing in S2. S3s climax is Elena reliving her parents deaths and facing her own. The biggest moment of S6 is Stefan and Damon reuniting, the entire plot of the S5 finale is Damon dying to save his brother. Bonnie as well but she didn't get the deserved focus.

Point is, if you really try to distinct a theme from this show I think it'd be family and loss. The Salvatore Brothers were the face of that family theme, while Elena Gilbert was the face of the loss. Despite everything in the series Elena Gilbert pushed through (except that one time she compelled it away) and no matter what The Salvatore Brothers fought for eachother.

imaneassi · March 18, 2017

1 hour ago, TaylorBruh25 said:

Bonnie and Enzo actually showed more emotion to Stefan's death than Damon and Elena. If there's a giant takeaway from a good episode, (besides Elena killing herself for no reason, which became the dumbest moment in the series) it's Damon and Elena no-selling Stefan's death.

The triangles been dead since Season 4. If we're being technical, 4x06. Elena's mind was made up way before that finale. The triangle didn't even truly begin until 1x11. The entire first 10 episodes is an entire Stefan vs Damon feud. If you ask me, the show's been about them coming together from the start, the triangle was a giant selling point(if we're being honest only worked because of Twilights hype) and as much romance as their was in the show it was always heavy on the Supernatural plots and action. Them always being at the high school (or a dance) made it feel like a pure teen romance but 90% of their high school dialogue is about taking down or finding out more about a giant Supernatural threat.

The family storyline focus doesn't only include the Salvatore's. Elena whole outlook in the pilot was grief from her parents death, her biggest loss in this show was when Jeremy (her brother) died. Bonnie's big reuniting moment was cut off from Jeremy and immediately overshadowed by Elena and Caroline. The climax of the S1 finale is despite everything Stefan couldn't let his brother die. Same thing in S2. S3s climax is Elena reliving her parents deaths and facing her own. The biggest moment of S6 is Stefan and Damon reuniting, the entire plot of the S5 finale is Damon dying to save his brother. Bonnie as well but she didn't get the deserved focus.

Point is, if you really try to distinct a theme from this show I think it'd be family and loss. The Salvatore Brothers were the face of that family theme, while Elena Gilbert was the face of the loss. Despite everything in the series Elena Gilbert pushed through (except that one time she compelled it away) and no matter what The Salvatore Brothers fought for eachother.

Wrong.The triangle died when Elena became human and still chose Damon.Before that, the triangle was still alive even though they showed us that delena had more chances to be endgame since even when compelled to forget her love for Damon, Elena fell in love with him all over again.And that was in season 6

The show was never about the brothers so stop pretending otherwise.On;y when Nina left the show focused on the brothers relationship.

That said, of course family was an important theme on the show and I'm very happy that the finale focus was on family.

TaylorBruh25 · March 18, 2017

2 hours ago, doram said:

Thing is... The great love of Elena's life is the man who killed her brother.

Caroline's mother's death was a vehicle for Steroline.

Bonni became bffs with the man who snapped her mother's neck. Of all the tragedies she has suffered, we're shown that the worst were her boyfriends', Jeremy and Enzo.

The genocide of the Lockwood family - father, mother, son and uncle - happens without comment.

I sincerely doubt that family is a theme of this show.

Aye, I think that's the theme it went for, I think it shows, however flawed & ass backwards in certain places the show was. Damon being Elenas boyfriend wasn't the only problem there, Bonnie and Damon are so contrived it isn't funny, Stefan and Caroline werent the focal point of Liz's death, unfortunately it became another bump on the Damon redemption road around Ep 12 or so.

2 hours ago, imaneassi said:

Wrong.The triangle died when Elena became human and still chose Damon.Before that, the triangle was still alive even though they showed us that delena had more chances to be endgame since even when compelled to forget her love for Damon, Elena fell in love with him all over again.And that was in season 6

The show was never about the brothers so stop pretending otherwise.On;y when Nina left the show focused on the brothers relationship.

That said, of course family was an important theme on the show and I'm very happy that the finale focus was on family.

That's just Delena, Stefan was never actually apart of that they were building Steroline in Season 6. Stefan and Elena had no romantic shot at all, same goes for 5. As I stated earlier, Elena was already in love with Damon by 4x06, the sire bond, her humanity switch, and anger revenge against Katherine were all ways to delay Delena and leave a glint of Hope she'd choose Stefan again. The triangle died in S4, and tbh the build had its true payoff in S3 when Elena made an actual choice.

Lets say the show is truly pure romance themed, about the triangle, that still includes Stefan and Damon. The show is about them either way, my argument was the tone and message the story told. You're making it sound like The Salvatore's aren't focal to this story.

Edited March 18, 2017 by TaylorBruh25

WhosThatGirl · March 18, 2017

Yeah. Before Nina left I still firmly believe the triangle was a thing. Also the show was always about a triangle in some way. Damon came to Mystic Falls to pretty much play games with Stefan all because of the original original triangle. But that wasn't my original point/post. My post was about what people's thoughts were on of Damon and Elena were going to always be endgame or if their real life counterparts changed the story in some way. Also I brought up the books because I have no idea on the books. Did the books have a triangle? Or did the show completely change the story? I wouldn't be surprised if they did, gossip girl did as did pretty little liars. Books that turn into tv shows are really only a blue print. I was just curious.

I will say I appreciate that Damon and Elena were still endgame even if I'm not a shipper for them, I'm not really a shipper for any couple on this show. -Except for Enzo and Bonnie because Bonnie never gets a happy ending-if only because the show built up their epic romance so to just have them break up because Nina left and the actors in real life broke up and it was awkward the showrunners didn't completely try to gaslight the romance. See for reference One Tree Hill on what they did. So that I can appreciate.

Edited March 18, 2017 by WhosThatGirl

TaylorBruh25 · March 18, 2017

3 hours ago, WhosThatGirl said:

Yeah. Before Nina left I still firmly believe the triangle was a thing. Also the show was always about a triangle in some way. Damon came to Mystic Falls to pretty much play games with Stefan all because of the original original triangle. But that wasn't my original point/post. My post was about what people's thoughts were on of Damon and Elena were going to always be endgame or if their real life counterparts changed the story in some way. Also I brought up the books because I have no idea on the books. Did the books have a triangle? Or did the show completely change the story? I wouldn't be surprised if they did, gossip girl did as did pretty little liars. Books that turn into tv shows are really only a blue print. I was just curious.

I will say I appreciate that Damon and Elena were still endgame even if I'm not a shipper for them, I'm not really a shipper for any couple on this show. -Except for Enzo and Bonnie because Bonnie never gets a happy ending-if only because the show built up their epic romance so to just have them break up because Nina left and the actors in real life broke up and it was awkward the showrunners didn't completely try to gaslight the romance. See for reference One Tree Hill on what they did. So that I can appreciate.

I think there was a triangle in the books, idk if it was as prominent as the shows, but I think it was a thing. I know the books mythology and characters are vastly different from the TV series.

I think Delena had to be followed through with, even though that couple itself (especially from S5 on) feels like fan-service, it would've been a bigger fan-service to have Elena swap brothers again (which some folk crazily expected) you know, I think they use (or would've used) the book as a crutch. Although people don't buy it, I wasn't sure I did myself until I thought about it this season, Bonnie and Damon were a big thing (I think) in the books, and last season they had a few interviews (especially Ian and Kat) were the books SLs were brought up. I'm almost positive they were setting up a Bamon crutch in case Nina wasn't returning, I'm not even a fan of the pairing, but there were so many scenes way past the "friendship line" so to say. Hell, they went with Stefan dying, which I think is the books ended too but I'm not positive.

I couldn't tell you if they toned down Damon and Elena for the actor's sakes or because they didn't have time to push every narrative (even Stefan and Caroline only got one scene) so I suppose it's a think what you may thing. I'd be dissapointed if they did anything story-wise for the actor's sake, it just looks unprofessional.

imaneassi · March 18, 2017

9 hours ago, TaylorBruh25 said:

Aye, I think that's the theme it went for, I think it shows, however flawed & ass backwards in certain places the show was. Damon being Elenas boyfriend wasn't the only problem there, Bonnie and Damon are so contrived it isn't funny, Stefan and Caroline werent the focal point of Liz's death, unfortunately it became another bump on the Damon redemption road around Ep 12 or so.

That's just Delena, Stefan was never actually apart of that they were building Steroline in Season 6. Stefan and Elena had no romantic shot at all, same goes for 5. As I stated earlier, Elena was already in love with Damon by 4x06, the sire bond, her humanity switch, and anger revenge against Katherine were all ways to delay Delena and leave a glint of Hope she'd choose Stefan again. The triangle died in S4, and tbh the build had its true payoff in S3 when Elena made an actual choice.

Lets say the show is truly pure romance themed, about the triangle, that still includes Stefan and Damon. The show is about them either way, my argument was the tone and message the story told. You're making it sound like The Salvatore's aren't focal to this story.

No what I'm saying was that the brothers relationship wasn't the focus till Nina left. It has a part in the story but the show wasn't about their relationship till Nina left.No,they could have ended delena in season 5 when both realized how toxic they were together, or when she was compelled to forget her love for Damon, or when she became human.(especially when she said that she didn't care what human Elena would do or feel because human Elena wasn't there, vampire Elena is)..at any of these points she could have gone back to Stefan .So Delena was endgame only after HUMAN ELENA chose him one more time

Edited March 18, 2017 by imaneassi

ElectricBoogaloo · March 18, 2017

7 hours ago, WhosThatGirl said:

I brought up the books because I have no idea on the books. Did the books have a triangle? Or did the show completely change the story? I wouldn't be surprised if they did, gossip girl did as did pretty little liars. Books that turn into tv shows are really only a blue print. I was just curious.

3 hours ago, TaylorBruh25 said:

I think there was a triangle in the books, idk if it was as prominent as the shows, but I think it was a thing. I know the books mythology and characters are vastly different from the TV series.

Bonnie and Damon were a big thing (I think) in the books, and last season they had a few interviews (especially Ian and Kat) were the books SLs were brought up.

There are 13 books in the official TVD series (plus an offshoot series called Stefan's Diaries). There were originally four books in the series which were written in the early 90s. After the CW optioned the books for a series (over a decade later), the publisher asked the author to write another four books (this arc was called The Return). That second arc was off the rails bonkers. Like so fucking out there that I almost couldn't believe it was the same series by the same author. The publisher than had a ghost writer do a three book arc called The Hunters and then another three book arc called The Salvation. The tv show is based on the original first four books, but there are a few elements in the later books that are also in later seasons of the show. Like Pretty Little Liars, the show then veered sharply away from the books into storylines that were not from any of the books. I'd say the most accurate description is that the series was originally based on the first four books (the setting, the characters, and the basic premise of a girl whose parents died meeting two vampire brothers).

The books did have the Elena/Damon/Stefan love triangle and it was a huge part of the books, particularly the first four. Bonnie and Damon did develop a friendship in the books, but they never had a romantic relationship. It was more that he felt very protective of her. In the final book of the series (which was published in 2014, so I have no idea how much the show influenced this):

Spoiler

At the end of the final book in the series, Elena ends up with Damon but in a very different way than on the show. She is sent back in time to her senior year of high school (when she met Stefan and Damon in the books) to prevent Damon from killing one of the teachers and sending everyone down the path of death and destruction. After she succeeds, she wakes up as a 24 year old in Paris which is where her new life has led her and eventually runs into Damon. But at that point, there was no longer a triangle because Stefan was killed at the end of the eleventh book.

Fun fact: in the books, Katherine turns out to be Elena's half-sister!

In the earlier books, Bonnie has a crush on Damon (which he does not reciprocate although he is very fond of her and protective of her and ends up dying to save her in book #7). Bonnie ends up married to a werewolf character named Zander.

In the sixth book, Damon becomes human and Stefan is angry at him for taking his chance to become human (but this was not because of The Cure).

In the books, a vampire's strength has to do with how noble your sire is, not how long you've been vampire.

Caroline is a total bitch in the books and ends up pregnant with Tyler's werewolf babies.

Klaus is an Original in the books (but he was never human) and he is the one who kills Vickie (who is not Matt's sister). Katherine says that she killed Klaus but it turns out that he just let her think that she killed him and then he hid for 500 years? I don't know. These books are a mess. He is later banished to an unnamed place but resurrected through some weird blood ceremony and then he dies again.

Artsda · March 18, 2017

9 hours ago, TaylorBruh25 said:

That's just Delena, Stefan was never actually apart of that they were building Steroline in Season 6. Stefan and Elena had no romantic shot at all, same goes for 5.

I disagree, the triangle was always around even when they were with others especially in season 5. The writers would throw things out there to show that Stefan/Elena bond that they would be able to return to that relationship if they wanted (which they did based on interviews).

For example I think it was season 5 had their alternative life episode and all the Stefan amnesia stuff.

dreamcatcher · March 18, 2017

On 17/3/2017 at 4:00 PM, Aeryn13 said:

That said, while I was glad Damon got a happy ending, I absolutely would have wanted one for Stefan too. They handwaved so much in the last (few) Season(s) and even the Finale itself, if they wanted to, they could have easily gotten around the "only one dose of the cure". Now I don`t believe Caroline would have turned back, even for Stefan, but they still could have had a happy life together.

Maybe they thought a really sweet-happy ending for everyone would have been too schmaltzy? Yet I felt they poured plenty of sugary nostalgia on things so Stefan making it out alive and dying after a human life as well as Damon and Elena wouldn`t have been too much more IMO.

I think that killing Stefan was the easiest way to end the story tbh. They had to have a major death to have some drama and they couldn't kill Bonnie (who let's be real, I'm sure was their first choice considering her treatment in all the other seasons) because the fans would kill them. Williamson said that if they had more time with Elena, they would have shown a Stelena reunion. So my guess is that if Nina hadn't left the show, they would have killed off Damon and then Elena and Stefan would end up humans and they would have gotten their happily ever after. So now that they knew Delena was going to be endgame, they couldn't have killed Damon, as they would have to find a new ending for Elena, plus Steroline couldn't really work out given that Caroline remained a vampire. So yeah I think that Stefan died only because it was convenient, which is why I can't really get mad.

11 hours ago, WhosThatGirl said:

I will say I appreciate that Damon and Elena were still endgame even if I'm not a shipper for them, I'm not really a shipper for any couple on this show. -Except for Enzo and Bonnie because Bonnie never gets a happy ending-if only because the show built up their epic romance so to just have them break up because Nina left and the actors in real life broke up and it was awkward the showrunners didn't completely try to gaslight the romance. See for reference One Tree Hill on what they did. So that I can appreciate.

Ok off-topic but THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS. Whenever the topic of real-life relationships comes up, this is my no1 example. The writers took so much time to convince us that Brucas were meant to be and Lucas regretted choosing Peyton and then they took everything back and it was sooo frustrating. I get that they have to respect their actors because they are human beings and we can't realistically expect them to not act on their feelings. BUT as I said before, it's their fault if they choose to date their co-stars, because they know that there is always a chance that things will end badly. You can't change storylines because your actors can't work together... I mean in any kind of professional setting, dating your coworkers isn't permitted, but everyone knows that it still happens. Yet, if you break up with them, you are then forced to work with them without letting it interfere with your job so actors should be doing the same.

13 hours ago, imaneassi said:

Wrong.The triangle died when Elena became human and still chose Damon.Before that, the triangle was still alive even though they showed us that delena had more chances to be endgame since even when compelled to forget her love for Damon, Elena fell in love with him all over again.And that was in season 6

The show was never about the brothers so stop pretending otherwise.On;y when Nina left the show focused on the brothers relationship.

That said, of course family was an important theme on the show and I'm very happy that the finale focus was on family.

That's the thing; by trying to push the whole "it was always about Defan" story they came up with to explain why they would continue their show without their main character, they tried to erase the previous seasons. Even though I agree that after Elena chose Damon she kinda became less important, it was always all about Elena. All the stories were built around her and she was always around even though she shouldn't be. I'm re-watching the first seasons and now I remember why most people hated Elena. No matter what was going on, she would always keep interfering and talking and making everything about her. I liked Elena, but I didn't like their writing. We were told that Elena was a perfect angel and then we would only see a self-centered person who always needed to be rescued. We were told that Stefan wasn't that good, but we would only see a hero. We were told that Damon was pure and innocent before his brother made him change, but we never got to see any of this. Now that I'm re-watching it, it's clear that the writers weren't that good. The core storylines (in the beginning that is) were good, but the execution was awful because we were always told that we should believe x and then they would actually show us the complete opposite.

2 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

There are 13 books in the official TVD series (plus an offshoot series called Stefan's Diaries). There were originally four books in the series which were written in the early 90s. After the CW optioned the books for a series (over a decade later), the publisher asked the author to write another four books (this arc was called The Return). That second arc was off the rails bonkers. Like so fucking out there that I almost couldn't believe it was the same series by the same author. The publisher than had a ghost writer do a three book arc called The Hunters and then another three book arc called The Salvation. The tv show is based on the original first four books, but there are a few elements in the later books that are also in later seasons of the show. Like Pretty Little Liars, the show then veered sharply away from the books into storylines that were not from any of the books. I'd say the most accurate description is that the series was originally based on the first four books (the setting, the characters, and the basic premise of a girl whose parents died meeting two vampire brothers).

The books did have the Elena/Damon/Stefan love triangle and it was a huge part of the books, particularly the first four. Bonnie and Damon did develop a friendship in the books, but they never had a romantic relationship. It was more that he felt very protective of her. In the final book of the series (which was published in 2014, so I have no idea how much the show influenced this):

Quick question: is this the ending that Smith wrote, or the ghostwriter's ending? Because one of the "rumors" as to why she was fired was that she wanted a Delena ending while her publishers wanted Stelena. And I think that Smith did write Delena as an endgame in her version (the "fanfiction"), but I've stopped reading both versions at some point because I got bored.

Aeryn13 · March 18, 2017

Quote

BUT as I said before, it's their fault if they choose to date their co-stars, because they know that there is always a chance that things will end badly.

What I find so puzzling is that Ian and Nina were already broken up well before Season 6 started shooting and they had plenty of romantic scenes, kiss scenes and even sex scenes in it. Which overall I had no problem with in terms of their acting. So shooting one or two lousy romantic scenes for the Series Finale shouldn`t have been a big deal. To be honest, if I was a writer/producer my response would be "pfft" and write whatever scenes I wanted to write.

Heck, they even kinda deliberately put the actors together a lot because the majority of Katherine scenes was with Damon. Just because the content was antagonistic doesn`t mean it isn`t the actors having to work together.

imaneassi · March 18, 2017

1 hour ago, dreamcatcher said:

I think that killing Stefan was the easiest way to end the story tbh. They had to have a major death to have some drama and they couldn't kill Bonnie (who let's be real, I'm sure was their first choice considering her treatment in all the other seasons) because the fans would kill them. Williamson said that if they had more time with Elena, they would have shown a Stelena reunion. So my guess is that if Nina hadn't left the show, they would have killed off Damon and then Elena and Stefan would end up humans and they would have gotten their happily ever after. So now that they knew Delena was going to be endgame, they couldn't have killed Damon, as they would have to find a new ending for Elena, plus Steroline couldn't really work out given that Caroline remained a vampire. So yeah I think that Stefan died only because it was convenient, which is why I can't really get mad.

Ok off-topic but THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS. Whenever the topic of real-life relationships comes up, this is my no1 example. The writers took so much time to convince us that Brucas were meant to be and Lucas regretted choosing Peyton and then they took everything back and it was sooo frustrating. I get that they have to respect their actors because they are human beings and we can't realistically expect them to not act on their feelings. BUT as I said before, it's their fault if they choose to date their co-stars, because they know that there is always a chance that things will end badly. You can't change storylines because your actors can't work together... I mean in any kind of professional setting, dating your coworkers isn't permitted, but everyone knows that it still happens. Yet, if you break up with them, you are then forced to work with them without letting it interfere with your job so actors should be doing the same.

That's the thing; by trying to push the whole "it was always about Defan" story they came up with to explain why they would continue their show without their main character, they tried to erase the previous seasons. Even though I agree that after Elena chose Damon she kinda became less important, it was always all about Elena. All the stories were built around her and she was always around even though she shouldn't be. I'm re-watching the first seasons and now I remember why most people hated Elena. No matter what was going on, she would always keep interfering and talking and making everything about her. I liked Elena, but I didn't like their writing. We were told that Elena was a perfect angel and then we would only see a self-centered person who always needed to be rescued. We were told that Stefan wasn't that good, but we would only see a hero. We were told that Damon was pure and innocent before his brother made him change, but we never got to see any of this. Now that I'm re-watching it, it's clear that the writers weren't that good. The core storylines (in the beginning that is) were good, but the execution was awful because we were always told that we should believe x and then they would actually show us the complete opposite.

Quick question: is this the ending that Smith wrote, or the ghostwriter's ending? Because one of the "rumors" as to why she was fired was that she wanted a Delena ending while her publishers wanted Stelena. And I think that Smith did write Delena as an endgame in her version (the "fanfiction"), but I've stopped reading both versions at some point because I got bored.

Elena never made it all about her. The other characters made it all about her. Let me tell you that no, not most of fans hated Elena, she was hands down the most popular character on the show.Only Stefan/stelena fans and Bonnie/Bamon fans hated her.

the first ones because she dumped Stefan for Damon and the second one because they were jealous she was the leading lady, wanted Bonnie to be the leading lady

dreamcatcher · March 18, 2017

42 minutes ago, imaneassi said:

Elena never made it all about her. The other characters made it all about her. Let me tell you that no, not most of fans hated Elena, she was hands down the most popular character on the show.Only Stefan/stelena fans and Bonnie/Bamon fans hated her.

the first ones because she dumped Stefan for Damon and the second one because they were jealous she was the leading lady, wanted Bonnie to be the leading lady

Well I've seen a lot of bitching about Elena and a lot of comments about Katherine being a more interesting character, but of course it's not like we can ever say with certainty what most fans believe and who they like the most. With each season though, I've seen more and more complaining about her. I did like Elena even when she got a bit annoying. She was the main character no matter what the producers are saying, so it's easy to identify with her. But it doesn't matter if she was the one trying to get involved in one of the "vampire battles" (well i don't know how else to call all these times that Stefan and Damon had to fight other vampires etc) or if everyone else just decided that they would put their life at risk even if she wanted to sacrifice herself. The point is that she was always presented as more important than everyone else. That's kind of inevitable because she's the lead, but I think that despite all the problems that tvd had in the later seasons, they did a better job at showcasing an enseble and not centering everything around Elena.

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

What I find so puzzling is that Ian and Nina were already broken up well before Season 6 started shooting and they had plenty of romantic scenes, kiss scenes and even sex scenes in it. Which overall I had no problem with in terms of their acting. So shooting one or two lousy romantic scenes for the Series Finale shouldn`t have been a big deal. To be honest, if I was a writer/producer my response would be "pfft" and write whatever scenes I wanted to write.

Heck, they even kinda deliberately put the actors together a lot because the majority of Katherine scenes was with Damon. Just because the content was antagonistic doesn`t mean it isn`t the actors having to work together.

My guess is that they didn't want to do hot scenes after Ian's marriage. I know that this is just us speculating and whatever, but I can't see why the same producers who made Delena overly sexual the past seasons wouldn't include at least one emotional/romantic/whatever scene. Maybe it wasn't Ian/Nina's fault and the producers just didn't want to force them to do this, or maybe they made it clear that they wouldn't film such scenes. I guess we'll never really know.

imaneassi · March 18, 2017

No need for hot sex scene.Just a proper kiss and Damon looking with love showing love at Elena.Not once in all delena's scenes he delivered, unlike Nina.

dreamcatcher · March 18, 2017

2 minutes ago, imaneassi said:

No need for hot sex scene.Just a proper kiss and Damon looking with love showing love at Elena.Not once in all delena's scenes he delivered, unlike Nina.

Yeah I don't think that a hot sex scene whould actually fit in the finale. I meant that going from 10 hot scenes per episode to not even having them talk to one another was a huge shift. I think the scenes we got would work better for Stelena if that makes sense.

Aaand I agree that it was Ian who didn't deliver. Some people said that Nina seemed a bit off and it might have been because she hadn't played this role in two years...And yet people are saying that she was fine in the scenes she had with every other character so I can't really blame Nina for the weird DE scenes.

Aeryn13 · March 18, 2017

Quote

Not once in all delena's scenes he delivered, unlike Nina.

I had no problem with the first scene where it was actually Katherine. When Damon believed Elena might have woken up, I thought he looked properly shellshocked and hopeful to see her again. And when they embraced, he looked happy. This scene, I had no problem with. And, as it was put in the promos, I didn`t see anyone having much of a problem with the acting in it either. It looked like a "proper" reunion, even if you questioned if Elena was really Elena in it.

It was all the stuff with actual Elena in the end that was WTF. Though, I agree, that Nina delivered in looking happy and loving. Ian, not so much. I could let the funeral scene slide but not when he came to pick her up at the cemetery.

What I will put on the writers, though, is to not have one word of dialogue spoken between them. That was kind of ridiculous and in no way do I believe the actors wouldn`t deliver lines to each other since they did that all over the episode.

Edited March 18, 2017 by Aeryn13

miss-vanilla · March 18, 2017

50 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

What I find so puzzling is that Ian and Nina were already broken up well before Season 6 started shooting and they had plenty of romantic scenes, kiss scenes and even sex scenes in it. Which overall I had no problem with in terms of their acting.

If I'm remembering right, It was announced that Nina and Ian had split up shortly after S4 finale aired in 2013 which most probably means that they split up privately well before it was announced. I have no problem with the DE chemistry throughout S5 and S6. I didn't like Nina's acting in the series finale particularly as Katherine but the fake reunion scene had all the right elements from both actors IMO. I know a few people guessed that it might have been Katherine when the promos aired but the majority were fooled. Those that were right cited the CW decision to promo (spoil) such a long awaited scene (for many fans) as the basis for their speculation but I don't remember a lack of chemistry being mentioned as a basis for anyone.

And this.

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Heck, they even kinda deliberately put the actors together a lot because the majority of Katherine scenes was with Damon. Just because the content was antagonistic doesn`t mean it isn`t the actors having to work together.

I have to deduce from the above that the Nina and Ian split didn't really stop the writers from telling the stories they wanted to tell. As someone else mentioned, there were quite a few openings that were created that could have lead to a permanent end to DE and/or a return to SE if the will to write it was there. Would Nina and Ian preferred not to have to act out all those romantic/love/sex scenes? most probably but they did.

Nina leaving changed the dynamics because it forced them explore the Salvatore brother dynamic among aother things. It didn't work all that well because they had already told quite alot of that story and brought it all to a nice conclusion in S6 only to undo it all in S7. sigh.

Aeryn13 · March 18, 2017

Quote

I didn't like Nina's acting in the series finale particularly as Katherine but the fake reunion scene had all the right elements from both actors IMO.

Ironically, I thought in the Damon/Katherine scene, they had a lot of chemistry also. It reminded me of the first Seasons. But yes, the fake reunion was totally fine. Which is why the ending stands out even more.

And of course there is Julie Plec directing the thing. IMO it would be the job of a director to say "lets do another take". She must have seen this wasn`t really good? Heck, if all else fails, super-impose some old footage into the shot. There are plenty of shots of Damon looking starry-eyed at Elena. Do some TV-magic.

miss-vanilla · March 18, 2017

20 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I could let the funeral scene slide but not when he came to pick her up at the cemetery.

I took that scene to mean Damon (who has already died) was meeting Elena at the point of her death what with the crow and everything, ready to walk with her into the light to find ultimate peace- her with her family and him with Stefan.

The way that cemetery scene was shot with Damon watching her from distance seemed to imply he was waiting for her in another realm much like Lexie waited for Stefan. Damon was still worried about finding his own peace as was narrated which accounted for the sombre smiles imo. I blame the direction mostly because the ending was far from clear.

I've just noted that I wrote something very similar to your post up thread. Not intentional, I was typing as you posted and then posted before reading.

imaneassi · March 18, 2017

I don't see the problem with Nina's acting as katherine. I think it was flawless despite of the shitty script. Actually these are the scenes of the finale that I keep rewatching along with Elena's reunion with her family.I see no difference in her acting in this episode than in all the 6 seasons she was in. She's flawless.People are disappointed with katherine's return because of the script. I don't get how anyone can say anything about her acting. She didn't skip a beat playing both, Elena and katherine. We didn't like the script, the wigs, but nothing to say about the acting. It was flawless

miss-vanilla · March 18, 2017

9 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

And of course there is Julie Plec directing the thing. IMO it would be the job of a director to say "lets do another take". She must have seen this wasn`t really good? Heck, if all else fails, super-impose some old footage into the shot. There are plenty of shots of Damon looking starry-eyed at Elena. Do some TV-magic.

Yeah, I think JP was aiming for bittersweet but it needed some dialogue to support that. It all felt rather rushed and confusing in the end but perhaps the fact that they had to edit out 18 minutes worth of scenes in total contributed to a lack of coherency at the end. It was like they just thought sod it! they will get the jist of it and if not we will explain all the bits you didn't see in the post finale interviews.

dreamcatcher · March 18, 2017

34 minutes ago, miss-vanilla said:

I took that scene to mean Damon (who has already died) was meeting Elena at the point of her death what with the crow and everything, ready to walk with her into the light to find ultimate peace- her with her family and him with Stefan.

The way that cemetery scene was shot with Damon watching her from distance seemed to imply he was waiting for her in another realm much like Lexie waited for Stefan. Damon was still worried about finding his own peace as was narrated which accounted for the sombre smiles imo. I blame the direction mostly because the ending was far from clear.

I've just noted that I wrote something very similar to your post up thread. Not intentional, I was typing as you posted and then posted before reading.

I also saw that interpretation and I guess it makes sense, but I don't really get why she was in scrubs then. Because after that she was in normal clothes so why would she go to that other side in scrubs? I like that interpretation though, I just think that it's the fans' interpretation and the writers just didn't do a good job.

29 minutes ago, imaneassi said:

I don't see the problem with Nina's acting as katherine. I think it was flawless despite of the shitty script. Actually these are the scenes of the finale that I keep rewatching along with Elena's reunion with her family.I see no difference in her acting in this episode than in all the 6 seasons she was in. She's flawless.People are disappointed with katherine's return because of the script. I don't get how anyone can say anything about her acting. She didn't skip a beat playing both, Elena and katherine. We didn't like the script, the wigs, but nothing to say about the acting. It was flawless

I blame the wigs above everything. In the fake reunion scene you can even see Nina's actual short hair at some point. It was so distracting that I honestly couldn't watch it. They could have used extensions, I'm sure they have plenty left from Reign anyway.

27 minutes ago, miss-vanilla said:

Yeah, I think JP was aiming for bittersweet but it needed some dialogue to support that. It all felt rather rushed and confusing in the end but perhaps the fact that they had to edit out 18 minutes worth of scenes in total contributed to a lack of coherency at the end. It was like they just thought sod it! they will get the jist of it and if not we will explain all the bits you didn't see in the post finale interviews.

The thing is that a lot of people got confused in the end. I came here because I wasn't sure about that last scene and wth just happened. As miss-vanilla said, some people think that the cemetery scene is also set in the afterlife and I haven't even thought about that before. We can nit-pick every scene and most of our issues with the show stem from our own preferences, but I think we can all agree that when people don't understand your scenes, then they weren't well-written. I get leaving their everyday lives to our imagination, that makes sense. But everything you actually show during the episode has to be clear and if not, you didn't do your job.

Aeryn13 · March 18, 2017

I wonder if they put some deleted scenes on the DVD - I think some was cut from the script and never filmed but if the first cut went way overtime, obviously that was filmed - and that gives some more context or makes the ending feel more well-rounded? Personally, I hope so. I got the gist of it with the afterlife but the scene of Damon picking up Elena at the cemetary is unclear to me when/what this is.

miss-vanilla · March 18, 2017

12 minutes ago, dreamcatcher said:

but I think we can all agree that when people don't understand your scenes, then they weren't well-written. I get leaving their everyday lives to our imagination, that makes sense. But everything you actually show during the episode has to be clear and if not, you didn't do your job.

Agreed which is why I blame the writing and the directing in this case. We got nothing from Damon verbally and very little emotionally. Elena told us how Damon was feeling and Ian had to show that through his acting- Apparently the biggest beat JP wanted to hit with Damon in those scenes was that he was worried about not seeing Stefan again not how happy he had been with Elena. Again Elena told us how happy they were in their life but we have nothing to show us.

I just re-watched the cemetery scene again and yes from Elena's diary voice over, it seems like she is writing her last diary entry metaphorically speaking.

"After med school I came home to MF, it felt right, it's where I wanted to grow old and I did. And that's my life, weird, messy, complicated, sad, wonderful, amazing and above all EPIC.!! I owe it all to Stefan. When I met him I had lost my parents, I was dead inside and he brought me back to life and i'm going to live it the best I can for as long as I can"

Cue the crow... ?

The bolded points are Elena talking in two different tenses. In the first she talks as if she has lived a long life until she was old and the second as if she still has her life in front of her. It's weird??

So she is talking as an old woman remembering her young self, in the graveyard where it all began with fog, a crow and a man complete with the accompanying imagery of a young Damon dressed in his leather jacket and his crow.

dreamcatcher · March 19, 2017

54 minutes ago, miss-vanilla said:

"After med school I came home to MF, it felt right, it's where I wanted to grow old and I did. And that's my life, weird, messy, complicated, sad, wonderful, amazing and above all EPIC.!! I owe it all to Stefan. When I met him I had lost my parents, I was dead inside and he brought me back to life and i'm going to live it the best I can for as long as I can"

That last one I think was the most confusing. She said that she IS going to live her life, we see her leaving the cemetery and bam, there she is hanging out with all of her dead family. How were we supposed to realize that this is heaven/the afterlife and whatever? And how could we understand what the cemetery scene was all about since first she says she lived her life, then that she is going to live her life and as I said, she was just casually hanging out at the cemetery wearing her scrubs. Unless they were trying to show how important being doctor was to Elena, to the point where she would go to the other side wearing them, that just doesn't make sense. If it was them meeting again in death, maybe they could have put her in an outfit similar to the pilot where Damon and his pet crow see her in the cemetery.

ComeWhatMay · March 19, 2017

The scrubs was a shortcut to tell us Elena was a doctor I suppose... but... Coulda, shoulda, woulda, but with 18 (?) minutes of cut content, & admittedly I didn't watch it & no disrespect to those who did & enjoyed it, I think the retrospective should have been cut or dropped. Tongue lathering from the CW, interview segments or what have you, what aired, should be DVD extras not at the expense of wrapping the show & communicating the story to viewers properly. The point was made before, but I agree the finale episode should have been at least an hour & a half, if not two hours. I figured Damon rebuilt the Gilbert House (Elena's dream house she regretted burning) for Elena & their children when I saw he gave his house to Caroline to -- in my view -- act, along with the school, as bodyguard for the town -- Caroline's mother was the sheriff after all.

While I believe Plec and Williamson tried to be sensitive with regard to Ian and Nina, and Ian's wife who I understand was on set, & to what friction would do to an already emotional set, they did film a proposal scene, right? I was pleasantly surprised when I heard they did & annoyed we didn't see it. The cynic in me says it was done to help sell the DVD. I hope someone takes one for the team via YouTube. :-) FWIW, I thought Ian & Nina both did great in what we got to see in the episode. I did not think either was off.

I don't want to think Nina &/or Ian made demands or that they were honored. I hope we never find out if they did. I recall reading about a dinner with Ian, Nikki & Nina on 'Page Six.' Ian had to work with Nina just one more time, he & Nikki weren't required to have dinner with her. It would be pretty disingenuous & tacky of all parties to have tied Plec & Williamson's hands in light of that dinner alone.

imaneassi · March 19, 2017

Fotr me it's crystal clear that the scene in the cementery both are alive. But whe they walk in ordinary cloths at the end and Damondisappeared, it's Ejlena who died first and joined her family in teh aftrerlife and Dmaon died after her and joined Stefan.

No I don't think that Damon was supposed to be sad, and cood towards Elena in all these scenes. I can believe it for their reunion when he was right behind Caroline, even though the kiss could have been better,or they could have shown us him carrying her the way he did when it was katherine, ,both crying over Stefan, she pulls aways looks at him in the eyes,wipes his tears with her hand and kisses him on his forhead and hugs him again.It would have been way more emotional than that fake kiss.

But there is no excuse for his look and lack of love and joy around her in the cementery scene,he was looking backward as if he couldn't wait to be over with it, as if he had better things to do.And that forced smile he had when they were walking in the afterlife...no excuse..He didn't show concern wether he would see his brother or not,,,,he showed indifference towards her..Ian's acting simply sucked

Edited March 19, 2017 by imaneassi

WhosThatGirl · March 19, 2017

Thanks for all you guys for the book information! Also your opinions on Damon and Elena and the triangle. I was just curious about if others wondered if Nina and Ian's real relationship carried over into what the show decided to do. And I only wondered because see my reference OTHs real life relantionship did affect the shows storyline, both when they got together and both when they broke up.

Anyways. I do kind of love that the final scene was Damon and Stefan. If the show wants us to believe they were the true relantionship of the real show, I'll believe it, also because when I think hard about the romantic entanglements of this show, it's all kind of a little strange who had a romance with who and who ended up with each other at the end.

ElectricBoogaloo · March 19, 2017

On 3/17/2017 at 7:27 PM, WhosThatGirl said:

I just figured it was more Ian and Nina were dating and the showrunners thought it would be a good idea to get them together. But I've always wondered if the books had something to do with it? I always wondered how paint by numbers the show was from the books.

It's possible that the show saw that Nina and Ian had good chemistry onscreen and decided to build to them having a relationship on the show, but Elena being interested in Damon was part of the books so I think that the intention was always for Elena to be drawn to Damon while still feeling loyal to Stefan. In the books, Elena's internal monologue is usually about how Stefan is her true love and she loves him sooooooo much but there's something about Damon that she can't resist even though she knows that she should. Usually I find the books to be better than tv/movie adaptations, but I think that the show did a much better job in S1 and S2 showing that Elena cared about Damon and was attracted to him but she resisted acting upon those feelings than the books did.

I don't think that the show was paint by numbers from the books. Keep in mind that only the first four books had been published when the CW bought the rights to turn it into a show. They took the basic premise (Elena's parents died before the books begin, she meets Stefan and Damon and is torn between them, vampires/witches/werewolves exist, Matt is the good-hearted human, Tyler is a werewolf, Alaric comes to town and becomes a high school teacher) but they really used them as a jumping off point for the world of the show rather than following all of the storylines from the original books. A lot of the characters were changed and there are many storylines from the books that were not used on the show.

13 hours ago, dreamcatcher said:

Quick question: is this the ending that Smith wrote, or the ghostwriter's ending? Because one of the "rumors" as to why she was fired was that she wanted a Delena ending while her publishers wanted Stelena. And I think that Smith did write Delena as an endgame in her version (the "fanfiction"), but I've stopped reading both versions at some point because I got bored.

The ending described above is from the official books. Just as a point of clarity, LJ Smith wrote the first seven books (not just the first four). She wrote the first two arcs (the original books and The Return arc) The ghost writer was brought in for books 8-13, which were the third and fourth arcs (The Hunters and The Salvation). LJ Smith's fanfiction is an arc called Evensong which continues the story where she originally left, so it's an alternative third arc. I haven't read any of the Evensong books so I have no idea how it ends. But having read second arc (The Return), I don't blame the publisher for hiring a new writer. That entire arc was wackadoodle, and not in an interesting or creative way. It was like a million different plots all crammed together. I have no idea if she was fired because she wanted a Delena ending and the publishers wanted a Stelena ending, but the official series of books kind of has it both ways since

Spoiler

Elena and Stefan are still together (and living together) in book #11 when he is killed. Near the end of book #12, Stefan's ghost tells Elena it's okay if she loves Damon, so she and Damon finally become a couple without any guilt. In book #13, all of that is undone when she has to go back in time to undo the past (basically everything that happened since she met Stefan and Damon) which is complicated by the fact that she remembers everything she went through with both of them, but they don't know her. At the end of book #13, she reunites with Damon.

imaneassi · March 19, 2017

The show was about a triangle, so delena was gonna happen regardless wether they were endgame or not

Edited March 20, 2017 by imaneassi

TaylorBruh25 · March 19, 2017

19 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

There are 13 books in the official TVD series (plus an offshoot series called Stefan's Diaries). There were originally four books in the series which were written in the early 90s. After the CW optioned the books for a series (over a decade later), the publisher asked the author to write another four books (this arc was called The Return). That second arc was off the rails bonkers. Like so fucking out there that I almost couldn't believe it was the same series by the same author. The publisher than had a ghost writer do a three book arc called The Hunters and then another three book arc called The Salvation. The tv show is based on the original first four books, but there are a few elements in the later books that are also in later seasons of the show. Like Pretty Little Liars, the show then veered sharply away from the books into storylines that were not from any of the books. I'd say the most accurate description is that the series was originally based on the first four books (the setting, the characters, and the basic premise of a girl whose parents died meeting two vampire brothers).

The books did have the Elena/Damon/Stefan love triangle and it was a huge part of the books, particularly the first four. Bonnie and Damon did develop a friendship in the books, but they never had a romantic relationship. It was more that he felt very protective of her. In the final book of the series (which was published in 2014, so I have no idea how much the show influenced this):

Reveal hidden contents

At the end of the final book in the series, Elena ends up with Damon but in a very different way than on the show. She is sent back in time to her senior year of high school (when she met Stefan and Damon in the books) to prevent Damon from killing one of the teachers and sending everyone down the path of death and destruction. After she succeeds, she wakes up as a 24 year old in Paris which is where her new life has led her and eventually runs into Damon. But at that point, there was no longer a triangle because Stefan was killed at the end of the eleventh book.

Fun fact: in the books, Katherine turns out to be Elena's half-sister!

In the earlier books, Bonnie has a crush on Damon (which he does not reciprocate although he is very fond of her and protective of her and ends up dying to save her in book #7). Bonnie ends up married to a werewolf character named Zander.

In the sixth book, Damon becomes human and Stefan is angry at him for taking his chance to become human (but this was not because of The Cure).

In the books, a vampire's strength has to do with how noble your sire is, not how long you've been vampire.

Caroline is a total bitch in the books and ends up pregnant with Tyler's werewolf babies.

Klaus is an Original in the books (but he was never human) and he is the one who kills Vickie (who is not Matt's sister). Katherine says that she killed Klaus but it turns out that he just let her think that she killed him and then he hid for 500 years? I don't know. These books are a mess. He is later banished to an unnamed place but resurrected through some weird blood ceremony and then he dies again.

Are the Stefan diaries any good? I just seen there's a bundle on iTunes, (one of them says it includes Jack The Ripper) I'm not a huge reader, but I'd make an exception if these stories were well, exceptional.

ComeWhatMay · March 19, 2017

7 hours ago, WhosThatGirl said:

Thanks for all you guys for the book information! Also your opinions on Damon and Elena and the triangle. I was just curious about if others wondered if Nina and Ian's real relationship carried over into what the show decided to do. And I only wondered because see my reference OTHs real life relantionship did affect the shows storyline, both when they got together and both when they broke up.

Anyways. I do kind of love that the final scene was Damon and Stefan. If the show wants us to believe they were the true relantionship of the real show, I'll believe it, also because when I think hard about the romantic entanglements of this show, it's all kind of a little strange who had a romance with who and who ended up with each other at the end.

While there was always meant to be something with Elena & Damon & I personally attribute the ending of this show to Plec's preference winning out as she was there from beginning to end, I agree OTH is a clear case of writers trying to capitalize off a real-life relationship & having it blow up in their faces. Whiplash Writing: Lucas' true love is Peyton, no wait it is Brooke, no it's really Peyton. I remember reading in Entertainment Weekly about a sex scene between the just married & quickly divorcing Murray & Bush -- "There's a VIP room in Hell for the OTH writers." I was uncomfortable just reading about it. There had been a marriage there, though, & that takes it to another level. I give Ian & Nina credit as professionals here above all, but I also think other relationships on set that came & went & people had to deal, Nina's time away that made any inkling of sending Elena back to Stefan a nonstarter whatever Williamson says benefited the story & Ian's marriage to another helped some who needed it separate TV from real life.

KatWay · March 19, 2017

Quote

I remember reading in Entertainment Weekly about a sex scene between the just married & quickly divorcing Murray & Bush -- "There's a VIP room in Hell for the OTH writers." I was uncomfortable just reading about it. There had been a marriage there, though, & that takes it to another level. I give Ian & Nina credit as professionals here above all,

The OTH situation was also made worse by the fact that Chad Michael Murray pretty publicly cheated on Bush and then five minutes after the divorce rebounded with a teenage extra on the show who was also always around for Bush to see. I give her a lot of credit for trying to be professional under those circumstances.

I think Delena was going to win the second Williamson left the show because it was abundantly clear that Julie Plec didn't give a shit about Stefan as a character, much less Stelena as a pairing.

imaneassi · March 19, 2017

Edited March 19, 2017 by imaneassi

WhosThatGirl · March 19, 2017

3 hours ago, ComeWhatMay said:

While there was always meant to be something with Elena & Damon & I personally attribute the ending of this show to Plec's preference winning out as she was there from beginning to end, I agree OTH is a clear case of writers trying to capitalize off a real-life relationship & having it blow up in their faces. Whiplash Writing: Lucas' true love is Peyton, no wait it is Brooke, no it's really Peyton. I remember reading in Entertainment Weekly about a sex scene between the just married & quickly divorcing Murray & Bush -- "There's a VIP room in Hell for the OTH writers." I was uncomfortable just reading about it. There had been a marriage there, though, & that takes it to another level. I give Ian & Nina credit as professionals here above all, but I also think other relationships on set that came & went & people had to deal, Nina's time away that made any inkling of sending Elena back to Stefan a nonstarter whatever Williamson says benefited the story & Ian's marriage to another helped some who needed it separate TV from real life.

Yeah OTH is a special case because they were married and I feel for them in a sense but also it did mess up the story.

As I said I like hearing people's thoughts on the matter. I didn't post in TVD forums until the finale and always wondered what others thoughts were.

I still wish we had gotten a two hour finale. The Forever Yours special was nice.. but I would have preferred more of the actual show.

dreamcatcher · March 19, 2017

5 hours ago, ComeWhatMay said:

While there was always meant to be something with Elena & Damon & I personally attribute the ending of this show to Plec's preference winning out as she was there from beginning to end, I agree OTH is a clear case of writers trying to capitalize off a real-life relationship & having it blow up in their faces. Whiplash Writing: Lucas' true love is Peyton, no wait it is Brooke, no it's really Peyton. I remember reading in Entertainment Weekly about a sex scene between the just married & quickly divorcing Murray & Bush -- "There's a VIP room in Hell for the OTH writers." I was uncomfortable just reading about it. There had been a marriage there, though, & that takes it to another level. I give Ian & Nina credit as professionals here above all, but I also think other relationships on set that came & went & people had to deal, Nina's time away that made any inkling of sending Elena back to Stefan a nonstarter whatever Williamson says benefited the story & Ian's marriage to another helped some who needed it separate TV from real life.

I'm not sure if Williamson would have gotten his way in the end... They had to have Delena at some point since you can't drag a triangle along for 6-8 seasons without changing the couple at least once. But they would have to decide on the final pairing pretty early on. I could see Elena going back to Stefan after coming to terms with being a vampire or once she turned human again -although it would be tricky to handle- but going from madly in love with Stefan to Damon is my true soulmate to omg nop my mistake, it was always Stefan would be at the very least weird. Then again, the brothers were fine after swaping once, in tvd universe it's not that big of a deal apparently.

imaneassi · March 20, 2017

On 3/18/2017 at 4:27 AM, WhosThatGirl said:

Thanks for the info. I just figured it was more Ian and Nina were dating and the showrunners thought it would be a good idea to get them together. But I've always wondered if the books had something to do with it? I always wondered how paint by numbers the show was from the books.

Seriously?The show was about the triangle.A teenage girl falling for two vampire brothers.So delena was gonna happen,no matter if they were endgame or not.Nian's relatrionship had nothing to do with it. And Nian were over at the end of season 4.Before they started filming season 5.JP could have ended delena as well but didn't.Nian had nothing to do with delena happening or being endgame

WhosThatGirl · March 20, 2017

27 minutes ago, imaneassi said:

Seriously?The show was about the triangle.A teenage girl falling for two vampire brothers.So delena was gonna happen,no matter if they were endgame or not.Nian's relatrionship had nothing to do with it. And Nian were over at the end of season 4.Before they started filming season 5.JP could have ended delena as well but didn't.Nian had nothing to do with delena happening or being endgame

Well I was just wondering if everyone felt that way. I've said that many times that I just wanted to hear people's thoughts on the matter.

At the end of the day, the finale was good. If the show wants us The viewers to think that the brothers relantionship were the core of the show, the finale sort of did that but as someone who watched the earlier seasons I know that wasn't always the case.

imaneassi · March 20, 2017

2 hours ago, WhosThatGirl said:

Well I was just wondering if everyone felt that way. I've said that many times that I just wanted to hear people's thoughts on the matter.

At the end of the day, the finale was good. If the show wants us The viewers to think that the brothers relantionship were the core of the show, the finale sort of did that but as someone who watched the earlier seasons I know that wasn't always the case.

Actually the finale didn't focus on the brothers. It focused on the family.We had Bonnie seeing her grams.Damon reuniting in the afterlife with Stefan.Elena reuniting in the afterlife with her family.Caroline seeing her mom,Alaric seeing Jo,Matt and his family.So I didn't feel that the focus in the finale was the brothers.But the last scene should have been Elena reuniting with her family. For 6 seasons the show was about Elena, her triangle with the brothers and Elena losing her parents and feeling dead inside, Elena losing her whole family...so for me the last scene should have been Elena reuniting with her family.But whatever,I had no problem with the finale even though I'm no delena fan.I just hate Ian's acting in the whole episode ,He didn't move me once.,not with Paul, not with Nina, not with Candice..he was off

WhosThatGirl · March 20, 2017

2 minutes ago, imaneassi said:

Actually the finale didn't focus on the brothers. It focused on the family.We had Bonnie seeing her grams.Damon reuniting in the afterlife with Stefan.Elena reuniting in the afterlife with her family.Caroline seeing her mom,Alaric seeing Jo,Matt and his family.So I didn't feel that the focus in the finale was the brothers.But the last scene should have been Elena reuniting with her family. For 6 seasons the show was about Elena, her triangle with the brothers and Elena losing her parents and feeling dead inside, Elena losing her whole family...so for me the last scene should have been Elena reuniting with her family.But whatever,I had no problem with the finale even though I'm no delena fan.I just hate Ian's acting in the whole episode ,He didn't move me once.,not with Paul, not with Nina, not with Candice..he was off

I agree with you about Ian and I guess it was about family and you are probably right, the last scene should have been Elena. If only because that would have been a nice book mark. They also should have included her brother in it as well.

imaneassi · March 20, 2017

18 minutes ago, WhosThatGirl said:

I agree with you about Ian and I guess it was about family and you are probably right, the last scene should have been Elena. If only because that would have been a nice book mark. They also should have included her brother in it as well.

Her brother was still alive so it was kinda hard to get him in that scene

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