“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[companionenvy]

6 hours ago, Jeddah said:

What Is and What Should Ever Be” is one of my favorite episodes, but it has always bothered me that in Dean’s wish-verse he didn’t think he and Sam would be close. I hate when Dean says stealing Sam’s prom date sounds like him. Does he really think he would ever do that? But even in that episode, where they are really estranged, Dean still thought Sam would get in the car with him. I don’t know how much of that AU came from Dean’s subconscious or was planted by the Djinn.

I've always wondered how that world works. It isn't actually the world as it would have been had Mary lived, because the woman Dean is with turns out to be the woman from the advertisement. Which means it is a projection of his subconscious. Yet it clearly isn't Dean's ideal world (something akin to Memorex heaven), since in Dean's ideal world he would obviously be close to Sam. So, I think it is something closer to the best world the victim can imagine for himself, which says something very sad about Dean's sense of self-worth. Dean can imagine a world where Mary lives, Sam marries Jess, and he has an attractive and intelligent partner, but he can't imagine the non-hunting version of himself amounting to much of anything. And, of course, it is also interesting that John is still dead in this world; Dean can't imagine his father being a successful member of this universe either.

[Katy M]

4 hours ago, companionenvy said:

I've always wondered how that world works. It isn't actually the world as it would have been had Mary lived, because the woman Dean is with turns out to be the woman from the advertisement. Which means it is a projection of his subconscious. Yet it clearly isn't Dean's ideal world (something akin to Memorex heaven), since in Dean's ideal world he would obviously be close to Sam. So, I think it is something closer to the best world the victim can imagine for himself, which says something very sad about Dean's sense of self-worth. Dean can imagine a world where Mary lives, Sam marries Jess, and he has an attractive and intelligent partner, but he can't imagine the non-hunting version of himself amounting to much of anything. And, of course, it is also interesting that John is still dead in this world; Dean can't imagine his father being a successful member of this universe either.

See, I wish they had left the thing with the magazine out, because then it would have been just like the djinn would know what would have happened.  But, I don't think it was supposed to be Dean's ideal world either.  Maybe it was what Dean made up of what he thought would have happened.  Maybe he thinks hunting is what makes him good or tolerable.  Or maybe the djinn made it up with elements in Dean's brain.  Or maybe the djinn makes your wish crappy on purpose, but why it would bother when it's just going to drain you is beyond me.

 

Or maybe if we fast forward to pac man Fever, it's a combo of your greatest desire and your greatest fear.  Dean wished his mother was alive, but feared losing Sam (just came out a different way in the dream).

Edited November 6, 2017 by Katy M

[DittyDotDot]

10 hours ago, Jeddah said:

“What Is and What Should Never Be” is one of my favorite episodes, but it has always bothered me that in Dean’s wish-verse he didn’t think he and Sam would be close. I hate when Dean says stealing Sam’s prom date sounds like him. Does he really think he would ever do that? But even in that episode, where they are really estranged, Dean still thought Sam would get in the car with him. I don’t know how much of that AU came from Dean’s subconscious or was planted by the Djinn.

What the djinn poison does is keep their victims compliant and happy while they are being drained. It's like a really bad acid trip that seeps into your subconscious. If Dean had envisioned a perfect life for himself, he wouldn't have believed it was true and stayed compliant. So, I don't think the djinn created anything, it's all a projection of Dean's wants, but presented to him as something he could believe and live with. He wants Mary alive and Sam to be happy, but he can't imagine himself fitting in that life because he can't imagine a life for himself without the hunting. 

Edited November 6, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Myrelle]

Dean said it was just a wish that Mom never died and that they never hunted. I think the djinn granted that wish and made it seem real to Dean by using his own feelings, thoughts, and memories to enhance it and make it seem real so that he would not want to leave-because the djinn wanted compliance to maintain the comatose state so that it could feed whenever it wanted.

This one evoked so many emotions-happiness for Dean that he had his mom back, sadness that he thought so little of himself that Sam would be so cold to him and that they would have no relationship other than the one shown to us, no real love of his life, but so bittersweet because he knew what he wanted-someone who would not only accept for him how he was, but actually love him for being who he was-a simple man with simple wants and needs.

This episode was the most compelling episode that this show has ever given us, IMO. Even on re-watches, I have to drop whatever I'm doing and just watch. The best of the best, in so many ways.

Edited November 6, 2017 by Myrelle

[ILoveReading]

I miss Raelle Tucker so much.  I feel like she was one of the only writers who understood Dean.

She made it clear that that the negative things in Dean's head came from the fact that it's Dean's negative self image rather then him actually being a jerk or a dick.  I am so glad these current batch of writers didn't write that ep. 

@Myrelle  I love your analysis of this ep. 

Edited November 6, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Myrelle]

6 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

He wants Mary alive and Sam to be happy, but he can't imagine himself fitting in that life because he can't imagine a life for himself without the hunting. 

And how sad it that? I'm tearing up a bit here...

[catrox14]

I'm really trying to understand what Dabb is doing with Dean.

 

Let's be real. Dean's getting his ass kicked more. He was controlled by Amara for a year. He's acquiesced to bad decision making by his loved ones just to have a modicum of contact and attachment. Lately Dean's few victories are hunting, saving Mary and I guess being a badass stunt driver.

Dean is emotionally and mentally isolated right now. Dean really has no one right now. Over the recent past like a couple of weeks at most, Dean has lost his literal best friend, his occasional frienemy/ally,  his mother and to a degree Sam, because they are so far apart on dealing with Jack, never mind that he is worried about Jack destroying

Dean is bereft with grief and is angry because of it. He's distrustful of Satan's Spawn. And he still deserves love and compassion from the people near him. He hasn't harmed anyone. He told a half Devil "child" who is worried about turning that he would kill him if need be. Yes, he's called him the Anti Christ and used the word "freak" because he is half Satan's Spawn who has powers they've never seen before that he can't control, which is factual, if stated harshly. He's snippy and bitchy but he's not harmed him. He's not tried to kill him despite his promise. He's not punched Sam, or Jack or anyone. He's basically keeping to himself as best he can without leaving Sam and Jack alone because HE can't because he's worried that this is going to go sideways. IMO, that's the main reason he hasn't left because there might be another mess that he'll have to clean up. He even told Jack that Sam's plans don't always work out.  And he's pissed about it.

Dean isn't even seeking grief sex, which tells me that Dean is REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY not okay.

Is he Dabb diminishing Dean to prop Sam, Cas, Lucifer and Mary? Is he setting Dean up for a tragic death? Is he writing Dean with less and less positive characteristics for a reason, to give him some kind of healing and emotional well being down the line?I just can't see where this is going for Dean. 

Edited November 6, 2017 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

Quote

 Is he setting Dean up for a tragic death? 

I don`t think so because IMO ironically a writer still has to have fond feelings about a character to grant them a tragic death. A tragic death would be an heroic one on this show, reserved for a character who is important and framed positively by the narrative. This isn``t true with Dean on the show anymore. So, he wouldn`t warrant a tragic death under Dabb. Being forgotten in oblivion maybe but not more than that.

Other than that, I don`t think there is a bigger purpose beyond needing a negative figure and punching bag for the narrative (be it emotionally or in action scenes or plotwise, whichever). And that thankless "role" goes to the character the showrunner/writer does NOT think of fondly. In my eyes, the character of Dean has noone to chamption him in the writer`s room. The other characters seem to have people who speak up for them, who try with them, who worship them. If a character doesn`t have that and the showrunner can`t stand them at worst and couldn`t care less at best, what sort of writing could you expect?  

[gonzosgirrl]

13 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I don`t think so because IMO ironically a writer still has to have fond feelings about a character to grant them a tragic death. A tragic death would be an heroic one on this show, reserved for a character who is important and framed positively by the narrative. This isn``t true with Dean on the show anymore. So, he wouldn`t warrant a tragic death under Dabb. Being forgotten in oblivion maybe but not more than that.

Other than that, I don`t think there is a bigger purpose beyond needing a negative figure and punching bag for the narrative (be it emotionally or in action scenes or plotwise, whichever). And that thankless "role" goes to the character the showrunner/writer does NOT think of fondly. In my eyes, the character of Dean has noone to chamption him in the writer`s room. The other characters seem to have people who speak up for them, who try with them, who worship them. If a character doesn`t have that and the showrunner can`t stand them at worst and couldn`t care less at best, what sort of writing could you expect?  

I have to wonder if at least a small part of this is because of a perception that Jensen can 'take' having his character belittled/hated on by fandom better than Jared could. Or it's some kind of jealousy/pettiness on the showrunner(s) part.  I honestly don't have any other explanation as to why one character is consistently a target like this. And no one will make me believe he isn't, not in the Dabb era. Sam may have been proven 'wrong' about the BMOL, but he was still given the hero/leader moment. He was still made the center of Dean's hero moment (the Mary talk). He still gets the apologies. He still gets the majority of the big kills. Dean only barely got the kill even when Sam wasn't there, and he had to 'die' first and get a warning from the psychic child to survive long enough to get that one. Something is going on. I won't be convinced otherwise.

Edited November 6, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

21 hours ago, Reganne said:

That Sam was damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.  In season 8, he was made out to be a horrible ungrateful, undeserving brother for not looking for Dean.

Do you think he was shown to be that in the narrative or by fandom?

[Wayward Son]

25 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Is he Dabb diminishing Dean to prop Sam, Cas, Lucifer and Mary?

LOL no one is getting diminished to prop up Castiel. Castiel’s only purpose these days is to get his ass kicked by everyone else and to be the one to make the stupid decisions while the brothers sit and look pretty while escaping all culpability. 

 

Spoiler

Such as making yet another deal with Lucifer ffs 

[Aeryn13]

Quote

LOL no one is getting diminished to prop up Castiel. Castiel’s only purpose these days is to get his ass kicked by everyone else and to be the one to make the stupid decisions while the brothers sit and look pretty while escaping all culpability. 

I will say that so far this Season the character aquitted himself well in his first outing. And it was a supernatural story. So while overall I don`t disagree that Cas has suffered some atrocious doofus-writing (IMO because of the revolving door nonsense with him), I`m tentatively optimistic. Even knowing all I know right now.  

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

LOL no one is getting diminished to prop up Castiel. Castiel’s only purpose these days is to get his ass kicked by everyone else and to be the one to make the stupid decisions while the brothers sit and look pretty while escaping all culpabilit

Okay fine take Cas out of it. Honestly at this point I hope Dean does end up being the smart guy in the room cause he's got nothing else right now except being a dick.

ETA ; at least Cas has a damn SL of some kind. Dean is doing... nothing thus far. Misha got to play a dual role. Jensen was a shapeshifter for like 30 seconds

Edited November 6, 2017 by catrox14

[ILoveReading]

8 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

LOL no one is getting diminished to prop up Castiel. Castiel’s only purpose these days is to get his ass kicked by everyone else and to be the one to make the stupid decisions while the brothers sit and look pretty while escaping all culpability. 

 

  Hide contents

Such as making yet another deal with Lucifer ffs 

One thing Misha is getting is material to work with.   Even if it really not good writing.  At least the writers gave him something to do by allowing him to play the entity in The Empty, and now Jack's surrogate father, and Dabb was quick to reassure that Misha had a story that will last all season.

I'd take what Misha is getting right now for Dean because anything beats this valium/doormat/ version they've been giving us for the last 3 seasons.

At this point I'd even take them having Dean snap and become a full on big bad.

Edited November 6, 2017 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

 

At this point I'd even take them having Dean snap and become a full on big bad.

That would be the boldest move the show could make. . Can you imagine? I'm still holding out a stupid hope that we get Michael! Dean

Edited November 6, 2017 by catrox14
homing is not holding.

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Do you think he was shown to be that in the narrative or by fandom?

The narrative. Because if there was any question concerning the supposed "mature" thing that the writers floated - which I didn't believe for a moment - they threw in Sam abandoning Kevin and tossing his phones, ignoring any responsibilities he had - not a sign of "maturity" - and just running off. Then they had Sam acting immaturely about Benny: "well if we're gonna work together, you gotta give up Benny or I'm leaving!" *stomp foot, pouty face* They made Benny entirely sympathetic and understanding about the situation, showing him to be more supportive than Sam, and then proceeded to have Sam not even accept Dean giving up Benny as good enough, because then he tried to kill Benny without any evidence that Benny was doing the killing. And Benny was only trying to connect with family, which Sam through his actions, ruined.

And to bring the point home that Sam honoring the supposed "agreement" and not looking for Dean was crappy, they had ghost Bobby in hell make sure we knew that it was crappy. In contrast we had loyal Benny who the writers made as cuddly as possible and who never abandoned Dean and gave his life to help Dean save Sam. Poor Dean and Benny, kept apart by mean jealous Sam. The whole thing looked like some bro version of a Romeo and Juliet soap opera plot. There was no way in my opinion the writers wouldn't have seen that with cuddly Benny and a sympathetic backstory. And in case we didn't get the Sam = crappy brother, Benny = better brother, the writers had Benny calling Dean "brother" with Dean entirely being comfortable with that moniker. Sam was never given a sympathetic reason not to look for Dean either, just an "I told you I didn't look. So what?" attitude.

Yeah, it was the narrative, in my opinion, no question.

As I wondered elsewhere, I wonder if this was Carver's attempt to repeat Sam's learning that he wanted to be with and was better off with Dean arc from seasons 1 through 4. And so to do that, he had to start Sam back at "i want something else" again so that he could "learn" nope, it was Dean I wanted to be with all along. Again. And much more crappily... while trashing Sam's character.

Edited November 6, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[gonzosgirrl]

37 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

The narrative. Because if there was any question concerning the supposed "mature" thing that the writers floated - which I didn't believe for a moment - they threw in Sam abandoning Kevin and tossing his phones, ignoring any responsibilities he had - not a sign of "maturity" - and just running off. Then they had Sam acting immaturely about Benny: "well if we're gonna work together, you gotta give up Benny or I'm leaving!" *stomp foot, pouty face* They made Benny entirely sympathetic and understanding about the situation, showing him to be more supportive than Sam, and then proceeded to have Sam not even accept Dean giving up Benny as good enough, because then he tried to kill Benny without any evidence that Benny was doing the killing.

And to bring the point home that Sam honoring the supposed "agreement" and not looking for Dean was crappy, they had ghost Bobby in hell make sure we knew that it was crappy. In contrast we had loyal Benny who the writers made as cuddly as possible and who never abandoned Dean and gave his life to help Dean save Sam. Poor Dean and Benny, kept apart by mean jealous Sam. The whole thing looked like some bro version of a Romeo and Juliet soap opera plot. There was no way in my opinion the writers wouldn't have seen that with cuddly Benny and a sympathetic backstory. And in case we didn't get the Sam = crappy brother, Benny = better brother, the writers had Benny calling Dean "brother" with Dean entirely being comfortable with that moniker. Sam was never given a sympathetic reason not to look for Dean either, just an "I told you I didn't look. So what?" attitude.

Yeah, it was the narrative, in my opinion, no question.

But will all due respect, that was then - 5 seasons ago now - and this is now. Sam got his season(s) long redemption arc, and now they are doubling down on the giving up/not looking and slapping it squarely on Dean's shoulders. Sam's 'so you want to move on from mom' line, accompanied by the pregnant pause and no response from Dean in the last episode, confirmed that for me. Just the latest in the character destruction that began when Dabb took over.  We're into the second season of the writers throwing Dean under the bus, with Dabb sitting gleefully at the wheel.

Edited November 6, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But will all due respect, that was then - 5 seasons ago now - and this is now. Sam got his season(s) long redemption arc, and now they are doubling down on the giving up/not looking and slapping it squarely on Dean's shoulders. Sam's 'so you want to move on from mom' line, accompanied by the pregnant pause and no response from Dean in the last episode, confirmed that for me. Just the latest in the character destruction that began when Dabb took over.  We're into the second season of the writers are throwing Dean under the bus, with Dabb sitting gleefully at the wheel.

I'm guessing Dean isn't going to get the equivalent of the trials story.  He'll be immediately made to apologize to Mary, (and mostly likely to Cas for not making a deal).  It won't take 3 years for Dean to issue a half hearted apology that Michael has to guilt him into. 

Did I mention Dabb is the worst thing to happen to this show?

[Katy M]

40 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

and then proceeded to have Sam not even accept Dean giving up Benny as good enough, because then he tried to kill Benny without any evidence that Benny was doing the killing.

Dean hadn't "given up" Benny at that point, and vampire in the area being caught burying a dead body is more evidence than they usually have before they start killing monsters.

[ILoveReading]

49 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

well if we're gonna work together, you gotta give up Benny or I'm leaving!"

And he got his own way.  Dean tried to walk away but Cas went and got Sam and told Dean they needed him.    Nobody called out Sam's behavior about a single thing he did during citizen fang.  Including leaving his brother handcuffed to a radiator or putting Martin on Benny in the first place.

I really don't see how this is a detriment to Sam's character. 

[AwesomO4000]

5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But will all due respect, that was then - 5 seasons ago now - and this is now.

I was answering catrox's question which didn't include now.

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Sam got his season(s) long redemption arc,

What was the redemption? Yes, Sam cured Dean of being a demon, but to do it, he killed at least one innocent - the crossroads demon's host - and persuaded Lester to sell his soul. Then he cured Dean of the mark, but started an apocalypse to do it. If that was a redemption story, it was a rather lame one in my opinion.

As for the rest, truth be told, I haven't seen the last two episodes yet, so I can't comment on those, though I disagree with the supposed character destruction talked about since last season. If Sam getting to kill a few extra monsters is character destruction for Dean, then Sam got double character demerits in seasons 8 - 10 since Dean killed / defeated / helped defeat every big bad there was from season 6 through season 11 - exceptions (at least 6, probably more). I think it was time Sam got a few.

9 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Dean hadn't "given up" Benny at that point, and vampire in the area being caught burying a dead body is more evidence than they usually have before they start killing monsters.

My apologies. I couldn't remember teh exact timeline, and since I hate the first half of season 8, I haven't really seen the episodes enough.

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

And he got his own way.  Dean tried to walk away but Cas went and got Sam and told Dean they needed him.    Nobody called out Sam's behavior about a single thing he did during citizen fang.  Including leaving his brother handcuffed to a radiator or putting Martin on Benny in the first place.

I really don't see how this is a detriment to Sam's character. 

Because it was shown in the first place? And because Benny was not bad or doing the killing, so obviously Sam was wrong? And not only that he was breaking up family with his actions - a bad thing.

Bad behavior isn't always called out. Dean did so many things in season 9 and 10 - although yes, many were under the influence - and he's never been called out or even apologized. And I don't count the "The Purge" speech, because Dean's lying was not called out there. And for me the lying was the main point.

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

 

Bad behavior isn't always called out. Dean did so many things in season 9 and 10 - although yes, many were under the influence - and he's never been called out or even apologized. And I don't count the "The Purge" speech, because Dean's lying was not called out there. And for me the lying was the main point.

We'll have to agree to disagree becasue I do think getting disowned, and called a selfish coward by your own brother is getting called out.  The reason doesn't matter, because I feel like Sam got to hang on to his anger at Dean.  He did right up until the moment Dean was killed. 

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

We'll have to agree to disagree becasue I do think getting disowned, and called a selfish coward by your own brother is getting called out.  The reason doesn't matter, because I feel like Sam got to hang on to his anger at Dean.  He did right up until the moment Dean was killed. 

I disagree with that.  I think his anger had mostly, if not entirely, melted by Mother's Little Helper.  Maybe to be picked up again when Dean told him in no uncertain terms that he was in charge at the end of Stairway to Heaven.

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I disagree with that.  I think his anger had mostly, if not entirely, melted by Mother's Little Helper.  Maybe to be picked up again when Dean told him in no uncertain terms that he was in charge at the end of Stairway to Heaven.

After Dean said he was in charge, Gadreel showed up and Dean attacked him.  Cas and Sam restrained him and then locked him up.   Dean escaped and went off with Crowley.  Sam caught up with him.  Dean knocked him out to keep him out the final fight. 

Talk is cheap.  Dean might have said he was in charge but nothing really came of it. 

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

After Dean said he was in charge, Gadreel showed up and Dean attacked him.  Cas and Sam restrained him and then locked him up.   Dean escaped and went off with Crowley.  Sam caught up with him.  Dean knocked him out to keep him out the final fight. 

Talk is cheap.  Dean might have said he was in charge but nothing really came of it. 

I'm not sure what your point is. That wasn't done in anger.  Dean was pretty dangerous at that point.  Cas assisted in the locking up. .  And, actually, Dean knocked Sam out to keep him out of the fight with Metatron, so he did take back charge.

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I'm not sure what your point is. That wasn't done in anger.  Dean was pretty dangerous at that point.  Cas assisted in the locking up. .  And, actually, Dean knocked Sam out to keep him out of the fight with Metatron, so he did take back charge.

I never said it was done in anger.  My point was was that Sam didn't listen when Dean said he was in charge.   If Sam had listened he would have stayed back and knocking him out wouldn't have been necessary. 

Edited November 6, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Katy M]

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

I never said it was done in anger.  My point was was that Sam didn't listen when Dean said he was in charge. 

Well, my response to you was just that I didn't feel that Sam was angry at Dean since at least Mother's Little Helper, but then in the interest of full-disclosure, I listed the incident that I thought did make him at least a wee bit ticked off at him after that point. If Sam had unilaterally declared he was in charge, I doubt Dean would have listened, either.  The only one allowed to be in full charge was John:)

Edited November 6, 2017 by Katy M

[ILoveReading]

Just now, Katy M said:

Well, my response to you was just that I didn't feel that Sam was angry at Dean since at least Mother's Little Helper, but then in the interest of full-disclosure, I listed the incident that I thought did make him at least a wee bit ticked off at him after that point.

I think we're getting out signal's crossed.  My post was meant strictly to address the line about Dean saying he was in charge.  I don't think he ever was as far as Sam was concerned..  Not to do with whether he was still angry.  I think we are discussing two different things.

As for Sam's anger, I do think we saw it flair up in Alex Annie Alexis Ann.  They were pretty snippy with each other.

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

{snip}

Bad behavior isn't always called out. Dean did so many things in season 9 and 10 - although yes, many were under the influence - and he's never been called out or even apologized. And I don't count the "The Purge" speech, because Dean's lying was not called out there. And for me the lying was the main point.

I think there were many people calling out Dean in s9 and s10 for his behavior and Dean apologizing for his actions in s10 at various turns. Off hand Sam called out Dean for going his own with Crowley.

Aside from others doing it, Dean himself calls out his own behavior  and apologizes for it. Regardless, the narrative is still saying what Dean did was wrong 

A few examples:

Soul Survivor: He was worried that Sam wanted a divorce and Cas said "He knows that wasn't you' to which Dean replied 'I tried to kill him".

Girls, Girls, Girls: Dean apologized to Cole for trying to kill him. Then when they fought later, he gave his gun to Cole as a show of good faith that Dean wouldn't try to kill him again.

Quote

DEAN

Look, man, I am sorry about the last time we met, okay? I'm sorry about a lot of things. I'm not the same person that I was.

 

Hunter Games: Cas and Sam both basically said there was no excuse for Dean to have killed Randy and the Rapists. 

Quote

Well, she thought he was kind. And for that, she loved him. Shows how little kindness there was in her life. You know, whatever Randy did, he didn’t deserve –

SAM

No, yeah, I know, I know. I hear you. Dean has had to kill before. We both have. But that was –

DEAN

That was what?

(Sam rises, surprised. Dean walks in from the war room.)

SAM

Dean.

DEAN

That was a massacre. That’s what it was. (Dean looks from Sam to Cas.)

DEAN

There was a time I was a hunter, not a stone-cold killer?

(Cas and Sam look troubled.)

DEAN

You can say it. You’re not wrong. I crossed the line. Guys, this thing’s gotta go.

 

No Place Like Home:  Dean apologized to Charlie for hurting her when he was fighting Dark Charlie and she told him to prove that he was sorry. He did not receive an apology in kind even though Dark Charlie was trying to kill him.

In s11, Dean was held to account for releasing the Darkness right along with Sam in the narrative by Dean himself and Rowena with "What new Hell has Dean Winchester unleashed upon the world". 

I think they are more examples in the narrative I can't think of them right now

[gonzosgirrl]

21 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think there were many people calling out Dean in s9 and s10 for his behavior and Dean apologizing for his actions in s10 at various turns. Off hand Sam called out Dean for going his own with Crowley.

Aside from others doing it, Dean himself calls out his own behavior  and apologizes for it. Regardless, the narrative is still saying what Dean did was wrong 

A few examples:

Soul Survivor: He was worried that Sam wanted a divorce and Cas said "He knows that wasn't you' to which Dean replied 'I tried to kill him".

Girls, Girls, Girls: Dean apologized to Cole for trying to kill him. Then when they fought later, he gave his gun to Cole as a show of good faith that Dean wouldn't try to kill him again.

Hunter Games: Cas and Sam both basically said there was no excuse for Dean to have killed Randy and the Rapists. 

No Place Like Home:  Dean apologized to Charlie for hurting her when he was fighting Dark Charlie and she told him to prove that he was sorry. He did not receive an apology in kind even though Dark Charlie was trying to kill him.

In s11, Dean was held to account for releasing the Darkness right along with Sam in the narrative by Dean himself and Rowena with "What new Hell has Dean Winchester unleashed upon the world". 

I think they are more examples in the narrative I can't think of them right now

With very few exceptions, Dean is the only one who ever apologizes and/or says he was wrong on this show.  He's for sure the only one who is called/refers to himself as a dick, regardless of how incredibly dickish others have been (and most often, to Dean). The few apologies he's gotten are usually of the 'sorry you felt hurt' variety more than the "I'm sorry I hurt you". Or the ever popular "I lied."

Edited November 6, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[ILoveReading]

http://deanmaniac.tumblr.com/post/167210272899/the-ultra-scientific-study-of-winchester-wall

I thought this was interesting for those keeping statistics.

It does seem like Dean is the favored punching bag, with a few exceptions.

The difference is really glaring in s5 and 11

Edited November 6, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Wayward Son]

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I will say that so far this Season the character aquitted himself well in his first outing. And it was a supernatural story. So while overall I don`t disagree that Cas has suffered some atrocious doofus-writing (IMO because of the revolving door nonsense with him), I`m tentatively optimistic. Even knowing all I know right now.  

 

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Okay fine take Cas out of it. Honestly at this point I hope Dean does end up being the smart guy in the room cause he's got nothing else right now except being a dick.

ETA ; at least Cas has a damn SL of some kind. Dean is doing... nothing thus far. Misha got to play a dual role. Jensen was a shapeshifter for like 30 seconds

 

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

One thing Misha is getting is material to work with.   Even if it really not good writing.  At least the writers gave him something to do by allowing him to play the entity in The Empty, and now Jack's surrogate father, and Dabb was quick to reassure that Misha had a story that will last all season.

I'd take what Misha is getting right now for Dean because anything beats this valium/doormat/ version they've been giving us for the last 3 seasons.

At this point I'd even take them having Dean snap and become a full on big bad.

Taking this to bitterness spoilers so I can talk about the upcoming stuff without worries. Plus, I'm still not sure if Feathers vs Jerk even belongs in this thread? haha

[catrox14]

16 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

http://deanmaniac.tumblr.com/post/167210272899/the-ultra-scientific-study-of-winchester-wall

I thought this was interesting for those keeping statistics.

It does seem like Dean is the favored punching bag, with a few exceptions.

The difference is really glaring in s5 and 11

OH MY GODS. This is fantastic. I love the bar charts. I know it's showing the violence stats but I laughed a lot at some of the commentary. Especially this nugget which seriously makes me laugh cause it's true. LOLOLOL

Quote

Hit on Head Criteria: A brother must have been hit on the head by an object other than a fist (because if I had tried to keep track of them getting punched in the head I would have run out of paper).

[gonzosgirrl]

19 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

OH MY GODS. This is fantastic. I love the bar charts. I know it's showing the violence stats but I laughed a lot at some of the commentary. Especially this nugget which seriously makes me laugh cause it's true. LOLOLOL

If you're going to hell for laughing, I'll be in the seat next to you. Seriously...

Quote

Choked Criteria - A brother must have something (usually hands, but may also be rope or cord) wrapped around their neck or they must have otherwise lost the ability to breathe. This includes when dick angels take away a brother’s lungs, or when a demon pretends they’re Darth Vader and force chokes a brother. 

I wonder how these stats would look if they only used brother on brother, or angel on brother violence? Somehow I think Dean would still be 'winning'.

[Pondlass1]

"At this point I'd even take them having Dean snap and become a full on big bad."

My phone won't let me do quotes for some reason.  But I'd go along with this for sure.  Would make s nice change frm everyone nagging at Dean to be nicer and dismissing his pain.

Yeah.. Snap Dean.  Flip out.  If anyone has good reason it's you. You do crazy so well.  Lol 

[Res]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I'm really trying to understand what Dabb is doing with Dean.

Is he setting Dean up for a tragic death? 

At this point, I'm really praying for this so that he'll at least be put out of his misery and not constantly be told how he does feelings wrong and how much he hurts/disappoints/etc. his family and friends.

 

Turning into a big bad would also work with me. I'd actually love that at this point because Jensen would knock it out of the park.

[DeeDee79]

16 minutes ago, Res said:

Turning into a big bad would also work with me. I'd actually love that at this point because Jensen would knock it out of the park.

I loved MOC Dean especially in The Prisoner. I still can't believe that Dabb wrote that ep!

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

http://deanmaniac.tumblr.com/post/167210272899/the-ultra-scientific-study-of-winchester-wall

I thought this was interesting for those keeping statistics.

It does seem like Dean is the favored punching bag, with a few exceptions.

The difference is really glaring in s5 and 11

Brain damage!!! ;)

[flyinghigh]

5 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

http://deanmaniac.tumblr.com/post/167210272899/the-ultra-scientific-study-of-winchester-wall

I thought this was interesting for those keeping statistics.

It does seem like Dean is the favored punching bag, with a few exceptions.

The difference is really glaring in s5 and 11

This is soooo interesting!! 

Thank you.

Really needed this after the last two episodes of season 13. I had gone back to watching my Selected Favorite Episodes (SFEs) of previous seasons. 

I think I will join Tumblr - if only to read posts like these.

[AwesomO4000]

8 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

With very few exceptions, Dean is the only one who ever apologizes and/or says he was wrong on this show.  He's for sure the only one who is called/refers to himself as a dick, regardless of how incredibly dickish others have been (and most often, to Dean). 

Statistics were done, and I'm pretty sure that they were fairly even in the apology / I was wrong or you were right front. Especially early on in the show, Sam apologizes a fair amount - starting from the very first episode - so it isn't just with very few exceptions, in my opinion. Within that first season (or two) Sam apologizes for upsetting Dean about Mary, for not being understanding about why Dean followed John's orders, and for Dean having to give up his childhood to take care of him (Sam). And those are just the ones that I remember off the top of my head. I'm sure there were more. And there have been more since.

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I think there were many people calling out Dean in s9 and s10 for his behavior and Dean apologizing for his actions in s10 at various turns. Off hand Sam called out Dean for going his own with Crowley.

You're right about Crowley and Randy and the rapists and some of the examples you gave. What I was trying to say there but didn't qualify enough (I was in a hurry, about to go out the door) was that not everything Dean did was called out or apologized for. There should have been a "for most of it" at the end of my sentence you quoted there. Or a "that" in there. (As in "Dean did so many things in season 9 and 10 - although yes, many were under the influence - that he's never been called out on or even apologized for." That should have been how I said it.)

So I was wrong about that the way I left it stated. No doubt about it. My bad.

I was meaning to say that Sam may not have been called out for what he did in "Citizen Fang," but he was called out for other things. And that Dean hadn't been called out for everything he did either, so it wasn't just a Sam thing.

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Hunter Games: Cas and Sam both basically said there was no excuse for Dean to have killed Randy and the Rapists. 

I think the Randy and the rapists example is somewhat of a false narrator example, though, because Castiel and Sam didn't have all of the facts. They didn't know that Randy's gang attacked Dean, so that Dean was defending himself (because they were stupidly already out the door). So they were basing their opinions on incomplete information and fear. We, the audience, however knew that there was more to the story and so knew that Cas and Sam were somewhat wrong in their assessment of the situation.

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Girls, Girls, Girls: Dean apologized to Cole for trying to kill him.

Bleh. I don't think Dean should've had to apologize to that jerk. I'd forgotten this, because ugh. Cole deserved everything he got once he started torturing Sam to get to Dean. In my opinion anyway.

And I think I was more thinking about stuff Dean did to Sam when I made that statement more than Dean's behavior in general. I also disagree that the narrative was showing Dean as wrong in the end (more the opposite actually), and I've already thoroughly covered my reasons as to why I think that is so, so I won't bore everyone with rehashing that.

Edited November 7, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[gonzosgirrl]

6 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Statistics were done, and I'm pretty sure that they were fairly even in the apology / I was wrong or you were right front. Especially early on in the show, Sam apologizes a fair amount - starting from the very first episode - so it isn't just with very few exceptions, in my opinion. Within that first season (or two) Sam apologizes for upsetting Dean about Mary, for not being understanding about why Dean followed John's orders, and for Dean having to give up his childhood to take care of him (Sam). And those are just the ones that I remember off the top of my head. I'm sure there were more. And there have been more since.

 

This goes hand in hand with what I was saying about the difference in Sam 'liking' Dean and how the show has changed, in my opinion, since those early days. But the recent seasons, the ones that will leave a lasting impression, IMO, in those Dean is the one apologizing, whether he should be or not. The only (major) thing he didn't say he was sorry for was saving Sam (S9) because he wasn't sorry. And even when they finally had Sam apologize for abandoning Dean to Purgatory, Dean was immediately made to brush off as unnecessary. Trashing Dean's character wholesale (The Purge), was wrapped up with "I lied", then forgotten until Book of the Damned, when Dean called him on it. Sure, Sam said* 'you know I didn't mean it'. <<Not an apology. And the explanation, again not an apology, went to Charlie, not to Dean.

So yeah, maybe Sam did some apologizing early on, but this is not the same Supernatural that it was back then. IMO, not even close.

*and what he 'didn't mean' was that he would let Dean die, 'lose him' - nothing about not meaning Dean's whole life's work, his whole life was selfish and self-serving, nothing about not being brothers, etc, etc, blah blah blah.

Edited November 7, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[catrox14]

7 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

think the Randy and the rapists example is somewhat of a false narrator example, though, because Castiel and Sam didn't have all of the facts. They didn't know that Randy's gang attacked Dean, so that Dean was defending himself (because they were stupidly already out the door). So they were basing their opinions on incomplete information and fear. We, the audience, however knew that there was more to the story and so knew that Cas and Sam were somewhat wrong in their assessment of the situation

I don't think that does qualify for unreliable narrator because the intention was Sam and Cas to be worried about Dean and telling the audience that Dean was getting worse. Dean himself said he was getting worse. So all 3 main characters are saying Dean was in the wrong. Who else would be reliable there?

It was happenstance that Dean was holding back the Darkness, and that Sam released the Darkness. Neither knew anything about it until it was too late. Dean killed bad human beings  but in this show killing human beings is the bridge too far, typically. Dean was judge, jury, and executioner which is a negative quality in this situation so for me I think it was pretty clear that the intention was Dean was the villain of s9 and S10 even over Crowley.

I guess I don't understand what you mean by everything Dean did wrong or bad in S9 and S10 wasn't condemned by the narrative. It was  condemned by people he loved and who love him; by Cain, Rowena, Crowley, Rudy, Cole; Death told him he was a stain on his family. Chuck himself condemned him in s11when he said the Mark made Lucifer more of what he already was. To me that applied to whomever bore the Mark since Chuck didn't specify that it didn't apply. So Cain and Dean being killers had to have already been in them and the Mark brought it out. Yes Dean got a shot at redemption by being the soul bomb, depending how much credit he was given for that vs Amara deciding on her own after pigeon lady convo is debatable, he was still there and facilitating, which is not as big a gesture as Sam jumping into the pit with Lucifer but it was something, I guess.

[ILoveReading]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

This goes hand in hand with what I was saying about the difference in Sam 'liking' Dean and how the show has changed, in my opinion, since those early days. But the recent seasons, the ones that will leave a lasting impression, IMO, in those Dean is the one apologizing, whether he should be or not. The only (major) thing he didn't say he was sorry for was saving Sam (S9) because he wasn't sorry. And even when they finally had Sam apologize for abandoning Dean to Purgatory, Dean was immediately made to brush off as unnecessary. Trashing Dean's character wholesale (The Purge), was wrapped up with "I lied", then forgotten until Book of the Damned, when Dean called him on it. Sure, Sam said* 'you know I didn't mean it'. <<Not an apology. And the explanation, again not an apology, went to Charlie, not to Dean.

So yeah, maybe Sam did some apologizing early on, but this is not the same Supernatural that it was back then. IMO, not even close.

*and what he 'didn't mean' was that he would let Dean die, 'lose him' - nothing about not meaning Dean's whole life's work, his whole life was selfish and self-serving, nothing about not being brothers, etc, etc, blah blah blah.

Numbers don't always tell the whole story. Keeping track of apologies, Sam and Dean would each get a 1 for Scarecrow but Dean talked about how proud he was of Sam and how he admired him for going his own way and standing up to their dad.  Sam's apology consists of "ditto"

I also wouldn't credit Sam with an apology for either Sacrifice or Fallen Idols because the wording came across very much as its only my fault becasue you made me do it in the first place.  Both of which lead to Dean apologizing to Sam when he shouldn't have too.

[Pondlass1]

I don't really get why Dabb & Co. have inserted Jack as a wedge between the brothers.  On top of this, he doesn't get the brothers... their history, how they relate, what makes them tick.  

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I don't really get why Dabb & Co. have inserted Jack as a wedge between the brothers.  On top of this, he doesn't get the brothers... their history, how they relate, what makes them tick.  

Because Dabb sucks and doesn't know how to tell a story that isn't all or nothing and Sam must be the Sainted Enlightened one, of course.

[gonzosgirrl]

26 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I don't really get why Dabb & Co. have inserted Jack as a wedge between the brothers.  On top of this, he doesn't get the brothers... their history, how they relate, what makes them tick.  

The answer is right there in your second sentence. Just have the 'he' refer to Dabb and not Jack.

41 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Numbers don't always tell the whole story. Keeping track of apologies, Sam and Dean would each get a 1 for Scarecrow but Dean talked about how proud he was of Sam and how he admired him for going his own way and standing up to their dad.  Sam's apology consists of "ditto"

I also wouldn't credit Sam with an apology for either Sacrifice or Fallen Idols because the wording came across very much as its only my fault becasue you made me do it in the first place.  Both of which lead to Dean apologizing to Sam when he shouldn't have too.

So, so much truth here. Sam is a master of the non-apology apology.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

I don't really get why Dabb & Co. have inserted Jack as a wedge between the brothers.  On top of this, he doesn't get the brothers... their history, how they relate, what makes them tick.  

 

I think its interesting to look at Dabb penned eps and see how Dean and Sam are written. Dabb wrote with Daniel Loflin until s8 so it's hard to say who wrote for which character or both together. They were brothers heavy but IMO typically Sam positive and Dean negative. I think Dabb sees Dean with one filter and that is a dick/occasional badass/comic relief at Deans expense. Hell if you read his comic it's all about how Sam is the one nice one and being ruined by his family. I do wonder if Dabb is trying to bring Beginnings End into play. And there is nothing wrong with Sam having that characterization or SL. What is wrong is that he seems to only be able to write Sam positive and Dean negative to elevate Sam.

    "Yellow Fever" with (Daniel Loflin) (Dean is a dick and scares people. Dean is terrified of everything. I'm sure that's sold as it's fun to take th piss out of Tough Guy Dean.)

    "After School Special" with (Daniel Loflin)(Dean is unrecognizable asshat towards women but protects Sam)

    "Jump the Shark" with (Daniel Loflin) (Dean is jealous about Adam and doesn't trust him and wants to kill him. Sam is all about  we have to give him a chance. Hello, Jack and Sam, ICU Dabb)

    "I Believe the Children Are Our Future" with (Daniel Loflin) Cas wanted to kill Jesse because too much power. Dean didn't. Sam wouldn't lie to Jesse and Dean would. Cas turned into a toy. Hello, Jack and Sam- ICU Dabb)

    "Sam, Interrupted" with (Daniel Loflin)(Dean is the one hallucinating, talks about his  alcoholism, but also shows how much pressure he is under to save the planet. Sam gets to save the young patient and show kindness and empathy)

    "Dark Side of the Moon" with (Daniel Loflin) (Tough call on who fares better here. Many insights to the boys past and IMO balanced. Yay)

    "Hammer of the Gods" with (Daniel Loflin) I don't even rember what the boys did in this ep. I think this is a love letter to Lucifer and they killed Gabriel)

 

   "Weekend At Bobby's" with (Daniel Loflin) Bobby centric and Dean's only appearance is to be scolded by Bobby when he sought his help. (yes Jensen directed which is why it was Dean lite. Sam also yelled at by Bobby but he was Soulless so he didn't care.)

    "Family Matters" with (Daniel Loflin) (I barely remember this other than Alpha vamp)

    "Unforgiven" with (Daniel Loflin) I dont to remember much on this one but it was Sam centric about his year of Soulless. don't know what Dean did tbh.)

    "Frontierland" and (Jackson Stewart); teleplay with (Daniel Loflin) Great balanced episode with both brothers effecting the save. Dean killed the phoenix but screwed up and dropped the bottle of ash. But Samuel Colt found it and sent it back to them because Sam left his phone behind.)

 

    "The Girl Next Door" with (Daniel Loflin) Sam centric Dean light cause Jensen directed but what Dean there was he killed Sams friend, and the backlash continues to this day.)

    "Season 7, Time For A Wedding" with (Daniel Loflin) Wait Dabb wrote this? that can't be right. Seriously? 

    "Plucky Pennywhistle's Magic Menagerie" with (Daniel Loflin) (Sam centric. Dean is the bad brother who mocks Sams fears and left Sam alone at Pluckys.)

    "There Will Be Blood" with (Daniel Loflin)Setup for the finale mostly seems balanced?)

    "What's Up, Tiger Mommy?" with (Daniel Loflin) Great for Dean in badass land. Cas reunion. Dean flashbacks. Sam staking his claim for his choice e to nolooknfor Dean. Honestly didn't know Dabb wrote this. I think this is the last episode with Loflin.

    "Hunteri Heroici" (balanced and shows Cas as wanting to hunt. Good Dean and Cas bonding .Oh Dean is an asshole about elderly people in a retirement community.  IMO)

    "Trial and Error " (Good for Dean until.. nope.. says he do the trials so Sam can have a life. Sam implies Dean is doing for suicidal reasons and shouldn't do trials. Sam kills hellhound and takes the trials cause he's not suicidal).

    "Clip Show" (Crowley centric Sam finds the demon blood cure. Dean... does something? Captures Crowley. Abaddon escapes? They can't save Sarah or the wendigo kid. Dean plays caregiver to an ailing Sam. Cas and Metadouche kill a nephilim. Poor Cas)

    "Devil May Care" (Dean is assaulted by Abaddon and the lying to Sam about Ezekiel possession continues. SamZeke kills all the demon.)
    "Road Trip" (Dean, Cas and Crowley look for Sam. Dean allows Cas to burn off Sams anti possession tat so Crowley can try to save Sam from Gadeeel. Double down on violating Sams agency but the truth is out. Dean leaves at the end of the episode telling Sam he's poison )

    "Bloodlines" (Who are the Winchesters LOLOLOL)

    "Stairway To Heaven" (Dean is off the deep end. He's going hard core Darkseid. He attacks and angel and it is uncomfortably misogynistic encounter with Flagstaff. Dean doesn't kill Tessa but she dies by his FB. Dean attacks Gadeeel.)

    "Reichenbach" (Badass Demon Dean going darker and taking on Crowley. Sam escapes Cole and captures Demon Dean. He speaks of how his is going to take Dean  home.)

    "The Things We Left Behind" (Dean slaughters Randy and the Rapists and Sam is now highly worried about Dean.)

    "Inside Man" (Honestly shocked that this is a Dabb ep. Dean was taking a dark turn. Eyes flashed black. Sam is going behind Deans back but IMO this is being sold as good because he's saving Dean and Bobby somewhat endorses but also warning Sam.)

"The Prisoner" (Dean tells Sam that he wishes Sam was on the funeral pyre. He's gone over the edge. He murders the Stynes including the Sam avatar of Teen Styne who was begging him to give him a chance. Dean beats the crap out of Cas and threatens him with angel blade stabbing. Dean is a badass and terrifying but it's not "good for Dean")

    "Form and Void" ( Dean is allied with Crowley, can't kill Infant! Amara, Sam finds a cure for the Darkness sickness. Sam prays. Dean saves the Darkness even though he kind of doesn't want to be doing it. Creepy non-con attachment between Dean and Amara)
    "The Devil is in the Details" (Dean goes back to Hell, not acknowledged in the text. Sam gets stuck with Lucifer in the cage. And at this point I think Lucifer is the character Dabb is now focused on. to the detriment of everyone else)

"Beyond the Mat" with (John Bring) (good brothers ep nothing bad. Dean gets to be a kid for a minute.)

"Red Meat" with (Robert Berens) (Sam becomes some superhero and Dean kills himself to save Sam)

 "Alpha and Omega (Dean has win but nothing badass. Sam scolds the team to get them moving. Dean meets Mary. Sam is shot)

"Keep Calm and Carry On" (Sam is captured tortured, Dean and Cas lose a fight because Dean becomes stupid for plot. Mary is a badass out of Heaven with  taking down Dean. Sam is mindraped (like what is with Dabb and Sam being captured and mindraped. He kind of did it with Dean and Abaddon, to without bondage per se. Sideyein Dabb here.)

"First Blood" (Dean can't handle 6weeks of solitary after spending 40 yrs in Hell so he makes a deal with Billie. Together the boys get out of prison. Dean is  badass but undercut by him once more making a deal and being mentally weak apparently. Sam is badass as well but I don't think he precipitated the deal making, he just went along with Dean. Cas saves them by killing Billie.)

"All Along the Watchtower"(Neither Sam nor Dean did much of anything but watch people die. Honestly, what did they do? Crowley seems to have closed the rift. Dean punched Crowley...? Mary had more action than either Sam or Dean. Castiel does something unbelievably stupid and is murdered. )

"Lost & Found" (Dean grieves angrily, frightens poor innocent Lucifer Spawn. Sam bonds with Spawn (hello Sam and Adam,) Dean has no hope)

My overall analysis is that Dabb  sees Dean through a narrow, not layered lens. Dean had more balance when Dabb was writing with Loflin. Now, not so much IMO. 

But seriously, Dabb why do you write this creepy non-con shit? Stop it.

Edited November 7, 2017 by catrox14
posted mobile and it was derpy. fixed stuff

[companionenvy]

Two points on Catrox's list above: 

1. As per usual, IMO, a lot of this depends on framing. If I had wanted to argue that Dabb is anti- Sam, my description for "Alpha and Omega" would have been.  "Dean  saves the day once again. Sam, who caused the problem, is reduced to cheerleader, and is then Samseled to end the episode. Or, for "After School Special": "High school Dean is a jerk, but secretly a vulnerable woobie with too much responsibility. Middle school Sam seems like a nice kid, but winds up being blamed for "bullying" the bully Dirk (whose sob-story he should totally have guessed) into alcoholism and an early grave. I don't know that either of those, particularly the latter, are 100 % fair descriptions, either, but they are accurate enough to show how easily certain claims can cut both ways depending on perspective.

2. One of Dean's first scenes in the entire series involves him crassly hitting on his brother's girlfriend. That isn't really who Dean is, and one thing I love, love, love about the early seasons is the way that Kripke deconstructs Dean's macho, horndog persona to reveal the layers of his personality and expose that persona as a form of defensive posturing. However, the fact still remains that Dean did and, to a lesser extent, still does assume that posture, which means that I don't think Dabb can be blamed for incorporating that into his backstory (as in After School Special) and even, at times, his present behavior. I agree that the current writing team has a tendency to resort to lazy characterizations that may exaggerate some of Dean's less admirable qualities, but it isn't totally coming out of nowhere, either.

[AwesomO4000]

Interesting analyses, catrox.

I'd like to add a few things if I could be so bold, especially to some of the ones you weren't sure about or didn't remember much. Also one sort of question / maybe correction?

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

"Sam, Interrupted" with (Daniel Loflin)(Dean is the one hallucinating, talks about his  alcoholism, but also shows how much pressure he is under to save the planet. Sam gets to save the young patient and show kindness and empathy)

I think you are confusing this with "The Born-Again Identity" which was Sera Gamble? Sam doesn't save a young patient in "Sam, Interrupted" that I remember. In fact the wraith's crazy makes Sam so rage-prone, he doesn't even notice that the doctor they think is the wraith isn't reacting to the silver, but is so focused on his attack that he is about to kill the doctor before Martin stops him. Sam also badly injures both orderlies in the violence of his attack. In my opinion, this episode actually is showing an interesting contrast between Dean and Sam - and it isn't that Sam is showing empathy. When Dean is being driven crazy, his crazy is directed at himself - his talks with the hallucination psychiatrist, he worries that he can't save the world, and he sits alone scared in a corner. Sam's crazy is directed outwardly and violently - he fights with imagined attackers telling him he's a monster, he throws himself into the attack on the doctor and the orderlies, and he has to be chemically altered and later physically restrained due to his violence.

At the end of the end of the episode, Sam has an epiphany about his rage, but the writers - much like Dean - don't really have time for / want to deal with it much, so apparently Sam gets it under control himself by "My Bloody Valentine" - thank you Ben Edlund. I wonder if some of that rage stuff was Loflin, because I suspect he wasn't the kindest writer to Sam that I saw (thankfully - in my opinion - he only wrote two episodes by himself, because one is probably my most hated episode of the series and one that I find to be very anti-Sam to the point of being out of character.)

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

"Hammer of the Gods" with (Daniel Loflin) I don't even rember what the boys did in this ep. I think this is a love letter to Lucifer and they killed Gabriel)

Actually there was an interesting bit in this episode somewhat illustrating how Sam had become more Machiavellian over time while Dean still more held on to his "save everyone" hope. When the gods grab a civilian and are about to slaughter him, Dean wants to try to save him, but Sam holds him back resignedly saying there isn't anything they can do, inferring that they have to wait for a better opportunity even though the innocent person gets killed by their waiting.

Dean also shows some ingenuity in his ability to stall until some help arrives. I'm not so sure about the love-letter to Lucifer, but I loved Gabriel's description of Lucifer as a "big bag of dicks." Bwah! It's funny cause it's true.

Good points, @companionenvy. And I agree.
 

21 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

 He's for sure the only one who is called/refers to himself as a dick, regardless of how incredibly dickish others have been (and most often, to Dean). 

That's because Sam is usually called a bitch, and not in the friendly way, but as in "don't be a bitch." And no, that didn't only happen once. Or Sam's accused of having PMS.

[gonzosgirrl]

Eh, I'd still say a preponderance of the evidence shows writer-Dabb's disdain for the character of Dean more than Sam, and his influence as show runner has bled that disdain out over the rest of the writing staff.

44 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

 

That's because Sam is usually called a bitch, and not in the friendly way, but as in "don't be a bitch." And no, that didn't only happen once. Or Sam's accused of having PMS.

I don't recall any other character referring to Sam as a bitch, literally or figuratively. Can't say the same about other characters talking to/about Dean.

Edited November 7, 2017 by gonzosgirrl
Missed an 's'