“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[SueB]

Honestly, I think his head really was still in Vancouver. They were 4 days in and 4 more days left to go. After filming on Friday, he flew down for a round of golf and to spend the day with his family on Sat. Sunday was all SDCC and travel. Then he was back to work at 6:30 on Monday filming. As the director, I imagine this was a massive distraction, even having a down day. There was a tweet about him getting the shoot finished one day by 18:30 and how they beat the writers home that day. I suspect being efficient and doing his job well as a director is a massive challenge that he throws his whole self into.

[supposebly]

 

Years ago, you never killed the main characters or important people.

I think John Winchester would respectfully disagree with that statement. That death meant something for most of season 2 to them. Charlie's, not so much. Maybe for 2 episodes or so.

 

I just played a bit of Alan Wake and I think that was the last time something called "The Darkness" scared me. If they stole from that game, I would actually look forward to watching.

[7kstar]

I think John Winchester would respectfully disagree with that statement. That death meant something for most of season 2 to them. Charlie's, not so much. Maybe for 2 episodes or so.

 

I just played a bit of Alan Wake and I think that was the last time something called "The Darkness" scared me. If they stole from that game, I would actually look forward to watching.

No, I'm talking about TV in general, hence the red shirt from Star Trek.  You knew the main character would never die.

 

The first few death on SP did mean something.  Now they don't.  But in general I see many TV show's that are guilty of just killing someone off as a cliffie for the season ender.  See Grey's as an example, who will they kill off this season.   It's now as tiresome IMO as when they never killed any main characters. 

 

Sue B, I know that Jensen is stretched thin when he directs and acts.  So it could be he is just tired and distracted.  Time will tell.

[Mick Lady]

I came here for some peace, because a bunch of you ( You Know Who You Are!) are trying to drive me nuts over in the spoilers thread. I don't know why I thought this tread would be any better.

 

Bottom line? I hate every single one of you.

 

First off, supposebly, whom I thought was such a nice person, posts in an "Oh I don't mean any harm" manner that I check out Superwiki,, which, until now, I didn't know existed.

 

So kind of you....Bitch!

 

They have a page, a whole damn page about "Canon Discrepancies"! I never knew there was a problem with the time Sam spent at Stanford, or John Winchester's Dad, or the Impala, or, well the list goes on. I swear catrox14, rue and 7kstar wrote the fucking thing just to keep me in Room 42. AwesomO4000 and Dot are just too nice to be in this diabolical plot. I hope.

 

So I casually asked Mick about the Impala, and he said, "Dean suggested his Dad buy the Impala when Cas sent him back in time to see how John and Mary met. But Cas also states that Dean could not have changed the past no matter what he did. John had already made a down payment on a Van, and never would have bought the Impala on his own. Why did he change his mind?" Then he asked, (and I'm divorcing him as soon as I get around to it), "How did Mary explain her Dad's broken neck and her Mom shot at home without telling John she was a hunter? He clearly didn't know, because when that angel goes back in time to kill John and Mary to prevent Sam and Dean from ever being born, John had no ides his wife was a hunter!" He actually wanted continue and talk about why Kevin was in the Veil and Charlie went to heaven!

 

You guys put him up to this, right?

 

Sorry for the rant, but the nice nurse is late with my Meds. Her name is Meg and she is really very nice!

[DittyDotDot]

Oh, Mick Lady, you're screwed now--hanging around supernaturalwiki.com means you're officially one of us crazies. Just wait until you find the pages about the timeline for each season...if they haven't already locked you into a padded room at the asylum, you might want to request it, there's no going back now. ;)

 

 

So I casually asked Mick about the Impala, and he said, "Dean suggested his Dad buy the Impala when Cas sent him back in time to see how John and Mary met. But Cas also states that Dean could not have changed the past no matter what he did. John had already made a down payment on a Van, and never would have bought the Impala on his own. Why did he change his mind?" Then he asked, (and I'm divorcing him as soon as I get around to it), "How did Mary explain her Dad's broken neck and her Mom shot at home without telling John she was a hunter? He clearly didn't know, because when that angel goes back in time to kill John and Mary to prevent Sam and Dean from ever being born, John had no ides his wife was a hunter!" He actually wanted continue and talk about why Kevin was in the Veil and Charlie went to heaven!

 

Personally, I think John changed his mind about the van because he didn't really want the van in the first place, he just needed a little nudge. He said he was only buying the van because "someone" (implied Mary) wanted him to. Imagine how different their young lives could have been if they'd been tooling around the countryside in a VW van instead of a muscle car. Now I kinda would like to see an alternate universe flashback episode of this!

 

Second point, in The Song Remains the Same, John had no idea Mary was a hunter, but there was some awkwardness between John and Mary when John says Samuel died of a sudden heart attack--it's pretty obvious Mary lied to John about Samuel's cause of death (which was actually a stab wound to the gut, not broken neck. It was John who had the broken neck until he didn't). I assumed Mary told John her dad collapsed while John and Samuel were arguing and I doubt she gave John the opportunity to look over the body and see the stab wound. This is why I'm not too fond of these sorts of time travel episodes; usually they make more questions than they answer.

 

Oh, and you can tell Mick: When Kevin died Heaven was closed up; when Charlie died Heaven was "mostly back to normal", according to Cass. So, as long as Charlie didn't say no or evade her reaper, in theory, she should be in Heaven and same goes for Kevin now too. Assuming that once Heaven got back to normal, the reapers retroactively collected the souls that were previously trapped in the veil.

 

TBH, there's really no show out there that doesn't have some discrepancies--especially a show that's been on as long as this one has--everybody makes mistakes, but it's how they handle the canon infractions is what matters to me. I'm just not sure they've even take much care to keep things straight anymore, which is disappointing.

[7kstar]

I came here for some peace, because a bunch of you ( You Know Who You Are!) are trying to drive me nuts over in the spoilers thread. I don't know why I thought this tread would be any better.

 

Bottom line? I hate every single one of you.

 

They have a page, a whole damn page about "Canon Discrepancies"! I never knew there was a problem with the time Sam spent at Stanford, or John Winchester's Dad, or the Impala, or, well the list goes on. I swear catrox14, rue and 7kstar wrote the fucking thing just to keep me in Room 42. AwesomO4000 and Dot are just too nice to be in this diabolical plot. I hope.

 

Sorry for the rant, but the nice nurse is late with my Meds. Her name is Meg and she is really very nice!

Well to be fair if we allowed you to leave...

 

You now have two choices...go insane trying to make it be logical

 

OR

 

Pick what you want and ignore the rest.  Hell with their mistakes, if someone says your not following cannon you can show plenty of proof to ask the question, "which cannon?"

 

I'm really innocent, I did nothing wrong.  I see how it is... :)  I don't get why Awesom04000 is getting off Scott free, stomps off mad and sees Dean...shirtless...did you say something...excuse me I think I need to go get something....(Follows Dean)

Edited July 20, 2015 by 7kstar

[AwesomO4000]

...stomps off mad and sees Dean...shirtless...did you say something...excuse me I think I need to go get something....(Follows Dean)

 

Wait, 7kstar, come back. If Dean is shirtless, that's probably demon Dean, and so you probably shouldn't ...

 

Well, at least take catrox14 with you. She wouldn't mind "sacrificing" herself should you guys get into trouble.

[catrox14]

I'll do it. I'll take one for the team. I'll happily follow demon!Dean (JFC I NEED THERAPY), shirtless and pantsless....demon!Dean.

[DittyDotDot]

So, it's like it is with bears, eh, AwesomO? Make sure you venture into Demon Dean territory with someone slower than you? ;)

[7kstar]

Wait, 7kstar, come back. If Dean is shirtless, that's probably demon Dean, and so you probably shouldn't ...

 

Well, at least take catrox14 with you. She wouldn't mind "sacrificing" herself should you guys get into trouble.

I think I need to experiment, how can you tell the difference between Demon Dean and Dean...Catrox14, do you think a kissing test would do the trick?

[catrox14]

I think I need to experiment, how can you tell the difference between Demon Dean and Dean...Catrox14, do you think a kissing test would do the trick?

 

Well , I'm not really sure kissing would really be enough of a test....just sayin'

 

Its really the hair. I like to think Demon!Dean can grow his hair, like immediately. LOL

Edited July 20, 2015 by catrox14

[Mick Lady]

Mick just asked what was going on tonight here. I told him, "Nothing much, they're all off molesting Dean." His reply was, "So just a normal night, eh?"

 

7kstar, "Which canon?" made me bust a gut laughing!

 

I'm hot for Cowley myself. I love the bad boy, which is why I married a Biker!

[mertensia]

Actually Mick Lady it could easily be that originally John bought the VW, it died and he went back and bought the Impala because it was what was in good shape, the right price and right for a family on the lot.

[DittyDotDot]

Other than, when he's on the car lot John and the salesman are haggling over price for the van. After Dean points out Baby and all her wonders, John then tells the salesman he wants the Impala instead of the van. Dean then follows John from the car lot to Mary's house in the Impala. Where Mary say's "What happened to the van" and John replies, "This is better than the van! This has got a...".

Edited July 24, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[Demented Daisy]

Hey, maybe John bought the van, but it turned out to be a lemon.  So he took it back and got the Impala instead.  

 

Or:

 

[Mick Lady]

I'm going with Demented Daisy's second theory. I like the silly! 

[DittyDotDot]

From the Spoilers with Spec thread...

 

Dabb is still involved, and what I gather from this thread is getting some attention.

 

We've started paying attention to directors and writers because of this thread. It adds a whole new dimension to the series. Mick's in love with Ben Edlund.

 

I could write dissertations about the writers of this show. I don't think I've ever watched a show where the writer's own voice is so easily seen on-screen--nor can I think of another show where I actually know any of the writers names. In some ways, I love the amount of freedom the writers are given to write and create. As an artist, I want to embrace this approach and squeeze it and pat it's cute little head and tell it what a good boy it is...but as a viewer, some days I get so frustrated with the unevenness of the storytelling that I want to throttle it. ;) 

 

BTW, I love (and miss) Edlund too. There was such a spark of witty to his episodes.

 

 

I've mixed feelings about Dabb. He's written some great episodes but also some really bad ones and I don't know what to make of him overall.  But then I don't know if the bad episodes were a result of his writing partner Daniel Loflin who's since left.  But Dabb wrote Bloodlines which I'm just chalking up to a failure by the organization and not just Dabb. He also wrote Yellow Fever, Dark Side of the Moon, Frontierland, Reichenbach, Inside Man and The Prisoner which are amongst my favorite episodes of the entire series.  So go figure. And he wrote What's Up, Tiger Mommy with the great Purgatory stuff so.....go figure.

 

I feel like he does pretty with mixing character with plot like Inside Man and Dark Side of the Moon.

 

    4.06 Yellow Fever with Daniel Loflin
    4.13 After School Special with Daniel Loflin
    4.19 Jump the Shark with Daniel Loflin
    5.06 I Believe the Children Are Our Future with Daniel Loflin
    5.11 Sam, Interrupted with Daniel Loflin
    5.16 Dark Side of the Moon with Daniel Loflin
    5.19 Hammer of the Gods with Daniel Loflin
    6.04 Weekend at Bobby's with Daniel Loflin
    6.07 Family Matters with Daniel Loflin
    6.13 Unforgiven with Daniel Loflin
    6.18 Frontierland with Daniel Loflin and Jackson Stewart; teleplay with Daniel Loflin
    7.03 The Girl Next Door with Daniel Loflin
    7.08 Season Seven, Time for a Wedding! with Daniel Loflin
    7.14 Plucky Pennywhistle's Magic Menagerie with Daniel Loflin
    7.22 There Will Be Blood with Daniel Loflin
    8.02 What's Up, Tiger Mommy? with Daniel Loflin
    8.08 Hunteri Heroici
    8.14 Trial and Error
    8.22 Clip Show
    9.02 Devil May Care
    9.10 Road Trip
    9.20 Bloodlines
    9.22 Stairway to Heaven
    10.02 Reichenbach
    10.09 The Things We Left Behind
    10.17 Inside Man
    10.22 The Prisoner

 

I think Dabb has been a stronger writer since he's been solo. When he wrote with Loflin, a lot of their episodes felt like, to me, there was a big shift in tone at some point that was so jarring it would many times put me off the episode--Dark Side of the Moon, for instance. The episode is absolutely stellar right up until Ash shows up and it's like a switch is flipped and it's a completely different episode, IMO.

 

I'm not sure I always found their humor all that humorous in the end either. As though it was funny until it wasn't--if that makes any sort of sense at all--like say, Yellow Fever. I realize, to a certain extent, that's probably the point--Dean being a scardy-cat is funny, but it's really not all that funny when you think about it--but somehow the humor dichotomy comes off as slightly off-putting rather than a brilliant writing twist. I used to wonder who the "funny" one of the two was, but I'm guessing it was Loflin because since Dabb's been solo, I don't have those same issues with the humor in his episodes.

 

What I think Dabb does well now that he's solo: he seems to hit character beats rather nicely and I rarely feel like I'm saying "who are these people" in his episodes. In fact, I'm usually saying, "oh, that's so very [character].

 

But, what I generally find lacking in his episodes is follow-through on the big idea in lieu of some sort of shock-value moment. For instance, Stairway to Heaven had all these ideas about terrorism--suicide bombers, torture, one army's hero is another army's terrorist, and such--but didn't seem to go anywhere. In the end, all I remember of the episode is Tessa impales herself on the First Blade and I still don't even know if she was brainwashed by not-so-marvy-Marv or if she was in on the con. Or how The Prisoner was about all these people being imprisoned in one way or another--the kid was a prisoner of being born to that family; Dean was a prisoner to the Mark; Sam was a prisoner to his actions of starting down this road; Cass was a prisoner to his desire to help; Rowena was literally chained up and being held prisoner--a very compelling and interesting idea. But, if I couldn't remember the episode title, how would I describe it? The episode where Dean goes on a vengeance-rampage and takes out an entire mob of powerful supernatural-ish folks--basically, Dean was a total bad ass in the aftermath of Charlie's death.

 

I just wonder if he's more of an idea man, but not so much great at fully realizing that idea? If I remember right, the Men of Letters was his idea--although, I'm not too fond of the concept, it was a big game-changing idea. And, IMO, Bloodlines really wasn't a bad idea for a show, necessarily, just not a show I'd be interested in watching. TBH, as an episode of TV it didn't think it bad; just not a very good episode of Supernatural as it wasn't actually Supernatural. 

 

Anyway, I'd be interested in seeing if Dabb had the showrunner chops. To me, showrunning isn't all that much about writing, but is more about managing and always able to come up with an answer when asked. From what I saw of him at Comic Con, he might have the skills necessary if put in that position. 

Edited August 14, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[Aeryn13]

 

I don't think I've ever watched a show where the writer's own voice is so easily seen on-screen--nor can I think of another show where I actually know any of the writers names. In some ways, I love the amount of freedom the writers are given to write and create. As an artist, I want to embrace this approach and squeeze it and pat it's cute little head and tell it what a good boy it is...but as a viewer, some days I get so frustrated with the unevenness of the storytelling that I want to throttle it. ;)

 

I knew the writers on Buffy/Angel and, well, Babylon is a cheat because the showrunner wrote every single episode of one entire Season.

 

But IMO for an ongoing show, not a total anthology, like say Outer Limits, you can`t have writers running wild with their own pet projects and ideas. There has to be a consistent throughline. If the narrative is very tightly plotted, that goes doubly so. If someone wants to write with full creative freedom, they shouldn`t join a TV show staff. And if they do, they shouldn`t be given that freedom for the most part. Keep them on a plot leash if necessary. If it is necessary, keep them on a character leash as well. I`d rather the writers room (and there should be one) has a couple more regulations rather than too few.

 

I don`t think Kripke was any genius in terms of plotting and pacing but at least you can follow a certain yellow brick road during his tenure. I might have hated some of its direction and definitely abohrred the ending but currently I see no direction at all. I see a lot of "throwing things at the wall at random intervals and see what sticks". And those are the "mytharc" episodes, using the term loosely here. 

 

In between those you get even more random MOTW episodes where the individual writers do whatever they want with no oversight or planning or a throughline between episodes. And the characters vary wildly as well.  

[Mick Lady]

Dot, I would love those dissertations! As I have said, Mick and I just started paying attention to writers and directors, and while SueB wrote a quick run down on them all, we'd love something more comprehensive!

 

I  said I before and I'll say it again. This place has multiplied our enjoyment of this show. We watch Vikings, Bates Motel, Justified, and of course Breaking Bad (I miss that show!), and BCS, but nothing beats the fandom here!

 

You all belong in an Institution. A very secure one. With barbed wire. And maybe dogs. Big ones.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Mick Lady

[DittyDotDot]

Dot, I would love those dissertations! As I have said, Mick and I just started paying attention to writers and directors, and while SueB wrote a quick run down on them all, we'd love something more comprehensive!

 

Well, you did ask for it...

 

I have my issues with Carver as showrunner, but I do I think he is a good, or at least decent, writer. Even though, since he's taken over as showrunner, his episodes are really lackluster to me, I think he does understand how to structure and episode, at least. He tends to write more character-driven episodes that are generally very emotional and I find he writes some well-constructed and zippy dialogue, even if it be overly-ansty and somewhat overly-romantic in tone for my taste. Some of his episodes under Kripke's tutelage are some of my favorite episodes--Mystery Spot, Changing Channels, Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid--since he's been showrunner, though, not a one has really done much for me. I think he may have benefitted from having someone editing his scripts back in the day.

 

As I said above, I think Andrew Dabb has a great sense of character, but mostly I find his episodes lacking in the end as his ideas are generally underdeveloped, IMO. He also seems to have a silly sense of humor that I generally like but also can get a bit after-school-preachy at times. When he and Loflin wrote together a great many of their episodes ended up being about bullies getting retribution. Which, I'm not against as a rule, but does become tiring after a while.

 

I think Robbie Thompson could be a stellar writer if he would just stop trying to be so cute and write. I find he gets so caught up in his big-concept ideas that he gets lazy with the plotting. He joined the show in S7 and, if I remember right, got the job by submitting Pulp Fiction, but I don't think it was his first writing gig in the industry. Even though I tend to adore the whacky, in general his episodes feel like self indulgence and end up being mostly frustrating when it's all said and done. I think with a firmer hand, he could be one of their very best, though.

 

Brad Bruckner and Eugenie Leming-Ross, dubbed by most as the Nepotism Duo due to Leming-Ross being married to Bob Singer--I tend to call them the Horrible Duo because, well, I think they're HORRIBLE! They wrote Route 666 back in S1 and then didn't start writing full episodes again until Kripke's departure in S7, but are credited as story editors for S1-S6, so they were around from the beginning. Their episodes are generally over-packed with plot, contain multiple retcons and the characters rarely feel like who they should be. I like to pretend a lot of their episodes just didn't happen, which can be difficult as they have been tasked with a good deal of the myth-heavy episodes since Carver took over.

 

What's sad is their episodes sometimes start off very strong. Like the start of I'm no Angel following Cass being human while the boys followed him--they so had me for a while in that one--then the rouge reapers show up and Barty Bart angel and April and... I don't think they've written one that didn't fall flat in my eyes by the end. Wait, their episodes in S7 weren't total wastes at least--Of Grave Importance was fairly decent. Which might lend credence to them needing someone editing scripts more. I do think Sera Gamble was better at smoothing out some of those kinks in some of the scripts. Even Robbie Thompson's episodes didn't feel quite so self-serving and obnoxious in S7.

I'm currently very fond of Robert Berens's episodes. He's fairly new to the show; joined in S9. His episodes aren't the most flashy, but they never feel lazy to me and I think he has a nice grasp on the characters. He could probably use a stronger hand to help him with the pacing of his episodes, but I find his episodes to be very thoughtful and I think he's the only one of the lot who seems to understand how to get from A to B to C rather than A to M to D to Z.

 

Jenny Klien; Nichole Snyder and Eric Charmelo; and Adam Glass have all hit and miss with me. None seem particularly good with character, but sometimes have some good ideas. One of Adam Glasses strengths was his love of the lore, but I felt like many times that would get in his way and would feel forced into this universe. Jenny Kien has a tendency to find something slightly offensive and run with it. Snyder/Charmelo episodes tend to have interesting premises, but more often than not though, they don't seem to understand their own ideas and their episodes come off as wrong somehow.

 

As to writers we've lost...Ben Edlund remains one of my favorites. He did the whacky, but also grounded it with the characters exceptionally well. He also created some of the most wonderfully odd one-off characters that I adored--Ronald with the laser eyes; the Kooky fairy lady; Ranger Rick--there seems like I could point to one in almost every episode that I was in love with. Mostly though, I love Edlund's particular use of language and especially loved the way Mark Sheppard would deliver those words.

 

Sera Gamble started off as just okay for me--and I hold the unpopular opinion that I think she was a stronger writer without Raelle Tucker--but I think by the time she left the show she had really come into her own as a writer. At first her episodes were rather after-school-preachy to me and kind of typical and mundane, but somewhere in S4 I really started to appreciate her episodes--Are You There, God? It's Me, Dean Winchester and It's a Terrible Life are among my favorite episode of the entire series. I actually rather appreciate her more in hindsight than I did on first viewing.

 

I wouldn't have minded seeing Raelle Tucker stick with the show as I think she was a very strong writer. I think she may have struggled with the lore and the genre a bit though, but seemed to know how to find that emotional grounding in her episodes. I think she went on to work on True Blood though, which may have been a better gig for her in the end.

 

Kripke is someone I miss greatly from the show, but not because I think he's a great writer though. For me, what Kripke lacked in writing skills, he more than made up for with his enthusiasm and vision for the show coupled with his ability to juggle a whole lot of balls at once. I think Kripke also seems to have a great talent at seeing his own weaknesses and finding people to fill in those gaps. One of the smartest things they ever did was to bring in Kim Manners to manage the production up in Canada.

 

There's been a few others here and there, but they didn't stick around long enough for me to see their patterns and tendencies. Like I said before, I don't know any other show I've watched where the writer's own voice comes through as much as they seem to on Supernatural. The early seasons are harder for me to pick them out, but by S4 I can almost always figure out who wrote an episode. (Although I lied when I said I there was no other show I knew the writer's names--I knew some of them on the Stargate franchise, but that only started because Martin Gero seemed to write a good third of the Stargate Atlantis episodes and did most of the commentaries too).

 

I've obviously thought about this way too much. Now, aren't you sorry you asked? ;)

[supposebly]

I never paid attention to writers. While Edlund episodes always stood out, they never made me wonder what the hell this episode or these characters or that plot was doing in my show.

 

Since the nepotism duo and others have run over and destroyed any recognizable characterization and canon, I have started paying attention and it's with more dread than anything. For most of the writers, there is always one or two episodes that are so awful that I am wondering why no one is reigning them in. Or fires them outright.

 

I'm terribly disappointed with Carver as showrunner and unfortunately, I'm still not looking forward to watching this year because of it.

 

In my not so humble opinion, one should not actually know right away who wrote an episode of a TV show. A showrunner should have a vision and do his very best to make that vision come true and make that very clear to the writers. Carver, as far as I can tell, has none. Or he doesn't care enough about it if he has one.

 

The writers' room at the moment feels like a few people how come in once in a while, Carver edits some typos and then they get sent to Vancouver. It all feels very amateurish. I know that's not how it works but it feels that way.

 

ETA: after watching the latest of Hannibal. Now there is a show with a VISION!

Edited August 15, 2015 by supposebly

[Demented Daisy]

Well, you did ask for it...

 

I have my issues with Carver as showrunner, but I do I think he is a good, or at least decent, writer. Even though, since he's taken over as showrunner, his episodes are really lackluster to me, I think he does understand how to structure and episode, at least. He tends to write more character-driven episodes that are generally very emotional and I find he writes some well-constructed and zippy dialogue, even if it be overly-ansty and somewhat overly-romantic in tone for my taste. Some of his episodes under Kripke's tutelage are some of my favorite episodes--Mystery Spot, Changing Channels, Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid--since he's been showrunner, though, not a one has really done much for me. I think he may have benefitted from having someone editing his scripts back in the day.

 

I wonder if Carver is good with little ideas, but not the big picture.  He can draw a tree, but can't create a forest.  

[supposebly]

 

I wonder if Carver is good with little ideas, but not the big picture.  He can draw a tree, but can't create a forest.

I don't know. I think it's mainly that this show is not his vision and he barely seems to know what he wants to do with it.

 

I never watched his US version of Being Human, only the UK original, so I really can't tell whether he is in any way a visionary. But then, even that was not an original. According to his imdb, he started out as story editor on the US version of Touching Evil and IMO, that was a beautiful and haunting show that should have lasted longer. But again, a version of another show.

 

I never had a problem with his writing previously to him taking over (Mystery Spot is probably my all-time-favorite) but as a showrunner, he sucks and I want him gone if the show keeps going.

[7kstar]

I don't know if it's Carver personality or not, be he appears flat about the show, lack of enthusiasm.  Kripke had that in spades.  So even if his vision sucked you felt he was giving his all.

 

IA that you shouldn't be able to go "oh this will be a good one it's written by"  or worst "oh no, not those two..."

 

Robbie at least tries, and maybe if he had a better person at the helm it would work a little better. 

 

I liked several things they did in Season 10 but the ending felt like ooops we have to move this along...I know let's do this...

 

It just didn't fit and if it had been set up properly it might have felt like an awesome ending instead of how can I work to make this okay.

 

We need to like the two leads.  I want to enjoy Cas on screen again and feel like he has a purpose...I know asking too much.

 

I just wonder if I was a fly on the wall during their planning session would I be so surprised at what happens or would I go, man we are lucky we got this much that was enjoyable...

 

Since in TV the writer is more like the director, the one that is suppose to keep it consistent, it is failing big time and I just wish they would get it together.  I'm trying to be enthusiastic but I'm having to work way too hard at it.

[Mick Lady]

Wow Dot, you really have this down! Thanks for taking the time to write this out!

 

I think the writers are terribly overlooked, not just here but in general. That's just not right. Many of you here write, and even if it's "just" fanfic, you understand how hard it is! Let's give some credit where credit due.

 

It's funny, but Are You There, God? It's Me, Dean Winchester and It's a Terrible Life are among our favorites too! Now we know why.

 

7kstar, I know what you mean about Cas, he needs better writing. I feel like he's an after-thought in most episodes, and I hate that. I don't want to have to work at it to get it all to make sense, but I'm beginning to feel like I'm pounding salt, as in my hope for Jesse's return.

 

But I am keeping my enthusiasm for this show, and I'm counting on SueB and the rest of you to support me in this. I enjoy a lot of shows, but this feels like a first love to me, and I don't want to lose it.

[DittyDotDot]

But I am keeping my enthusiasm for this show, and I'm counting on SueB and the rest of you to support me in this. I enjoy a lot of shows, but this feels like a first love to me, and I don't want to lose it.

 

It's funny, this is the first year since S8 I've been feeling enthusiastic about the show. I don't know what's happened to me! I'm not sure if I'll be able to sustain this feeling once the show comes back in the fall, but I'm trying to ride it as long as I can.

[FlickChick]

I'm right there with you, Dot. I thought that S10 was better than the other Carver seasons. I appreciated that Sam really loved his brother and actively tried to help him, albeit unwisely. Also, the myth-arc was front and center throughout most of the season (my preference) including a lack of "comedic relief" episodes (aka often poorly written trash, in my book) toward the end of the season going into the finale. I hate to get my hopes up for the next season, but I'm more optimistic that maybe Carver has learned a thing or two about pacing. I know, I know...

[catrox14]

I'm apprehensive about s11.

 

Despite my irritation with the early truncation of demon!Dean and that Dean had nothing to do with the Mark being removed, I ended up really enjoying s10 more upon re-watching it as a binge.  What? My DVR has room for all 23 episodes....don't judge me.

 

Sure it had it's real clunkers like Paper Moon and Halt and Catch Fire and Paint it Black (Dean's confession was the best part of that episode)...and the pacing of episodes at the beginning was squirrelly.

 

I dunno maybe the show is being written with binge watching in mind now more than the week to week viewing?  LIke I remember being really disappointed with Black as the opener but then watching Black, Reichenbach and Soul Survivor as a binge back to back, it was much more enjoyable, especially with Black and Reichenbach. LIke maybe if they had put those together as one long like 2 hour premiere it would have had more impact or have less episodes so we don't get filler crap.

 

Just for fun what would have changed in s10 if we only had 18-20 episodes.

 

Black

Reichenbach

Soul Survivor

No Paper Moon

Fan Fiction (still could have the boys relaxing by the lake and then Dean finds the case. Something like that

Ask Jeeves

Girls Girls Girls

HIbbing 911

The Things We Left Behind

The Hunger Games

There's No Place Like Home

About a Boy

Skip Halt and Catch Fire - put Dean's speech about keeping fighting at the end of About A Boy

Executioner's Song

Skip Things They Carried because ugh NO to the whole thing. I don't need to see Cole again thank you. We got Cole's dilemma back in Girls Girls Girls. We

Paint It Black (can't find a good way to get rid of this and still have Dean's confession which is the best part of that episode)

Angel Heart

Inside Man

Book of the Damned

The Werther Project

Dark Dynasty

The Prisoner

Brother's Keeper

 

I just think the pacing would have been racing to the end and been so much better. Also eliminate the extended breaks too.  What would you do?

 

Also, the forum is eating my posts and eating parts of my comments. WTF is going on. Anyone else having that problem?

Edited August 16, 2015 by catrox14

[7kstar]

I think the thing about Binge watching is that the expectations aren't there and you don't have time to think about what you want to see.  I will watch some before they start.  I didn't have room for all of season 10 but I expect I will buy the dvd, which means I only don't own Season 8.

 

I understand that production causes the necessary breaks but sometimes the length between the next one hurts because they don't have a solid plan for us to see so we are disappointed.

 

I have gotten a bit more optimistic about this season from being here, but I also have low expectations.  Maybe that way they will surprise me.

 

Catrox14 IA with your list, I wish they gone with Dean Demon story having more bite.  As far as I saw Demon Dean wasn't that bad of a demon.

 

It posted what I said but it is posting slow for me.

Edited August 16, 2015 by 7kstar

[DittyDotDot]

Well, I can't actually point to what has given me some excitement about the show lately as I didn't particularly care for S10 and think 75 percent of the episodes should have never been made. I don't know, what it is, but I am definitely feeling more excited about the show than I have since the hiatus between S7 and S8, though.

 

Maybe it's the fact that I've taken a break from the show this summer, so I'm feeling that absence-makes-the-heart-grow-stronger effect? Or maybe it's because we're not getting any information about the show right now, so I have no idea what's going on and have no expectations yet...although, I still expect them to screw it up in some fashion; they always screw it up. ;)

 

 

I just think the pacing would have been racing to the end and been so much better. Also eliminate the extended breaks too.  What would you do?

 

If it were me, They either needed to commit to Demon Dean and do it justice or just not to have done it at all, so I personally would just remove the first two episodes completely as I found them dull as dirt and not providing anything useful to the narrative, in the end. Soul Survivor would need to stay because for the rest of the episodes to work, Dean has to get cured. TBH though, it could've been just as easily mentioned and never seen for as anti-climatic it was done in the end. Actually, the only episodes I'd keep from the season are:

• Fan Fiction
• Ask Jeeves
• HIbbing 911
• About a Boy
• Executioner's Song
• Inside Man
• Book of the Damned
• The Werther Project 

 

And of that list, I'll probably only want to re-watch two or three of them. Oh, that's not a season and with a through line, you say...well, I'm not sure it's really much clearer with the rest of the episodes either. 

Edited August 16, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[supposebly]

I wish I was there. This season seems to have finally killed my enjoyment of the show, mainly the finale has. Every time I think about how the story will probably continue, I get this apathetic feeling and that's it. I've spent the last 9 years every summer rewatching the preceding season, getting excited for the next and this year, it's just not happening.

 

It was pretty bad after season 8 and I only ever rewatched the second half of that one, but it's only gotten worse. I actually preferred season 9 over this year.

 

Overall, my feelings about this season were: First I was bored, then I was annoyed and bored, and at the end I was furious.

 

Unless a miracle happens, I don't think I'll be watching this year. I can't do it it anymore. I barely recognize Sam and Dean anymore, Sam being nice to Dean is not enough to make me forget that he caused another apocalypse.

And now I'm looking at another season where I'm supposed to forget that Sam and Dean have become the people who "choose each other" (that phrase makes me sick at this point, it has become completely meaningless) at the expense of the world or the universe. Why on earth should I root for them? Why on earth is that a good thing?

 

I still don't know if Sam finishing the trials would have closed the gates of hell and I KNOW that he is guilty of unleashing the bloody "Darkness".

 

Carver has made me hate them both and has reduced them to a guy with ridiculously low self-esteem and a martyr complex and another, I don't even know anymore who Sam is supposed to be.

 

I'd rather take a break from the show and maybe rewatch earlier seasons in a few years when I'm over it. Because right now, I'm not and I'd rather stop following this one instead of spreading my disappointment over and over.

 

So, have fun, guys, I hope you will like it.

[catrox14]

I was thinking about how s11 could be different. I'll take it to the spec thread.

Edited August 16, 2015 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

Um, okay, sorry I misunderstood, I guess. I thought you were just asking how we could've changed S10 and made it more energetic. I have no suggestions on how to change S11 because there's nothing to actually change, as of yet.

[catrox14]

Supposedly, I do hope you check in. Maybe it won't be as bad as you imagine. /fingers crossed

[supposebly]

Thanks, catrox14.

Unfortunately, unless they completely reverse what they've done and have both Winchesters jump into a hole to reverse the damage they did to the universe and apologize to all the people that are supposed to be dead since this is pretty much the reversal of life the way Death explained it, I don't see that happening. In order to have the show they've had before, it's just gonna be same-old-same-old.

 

If not, I might check in around the halfway point or during a time when I have really nothing better to watch. Which is unlikely, my Netflix list is getting longer, not shorter.

 

Ok, I'm off to watch Sense8! *runs off into the sunset

[Demented Daisy]

Oh, supposebly, Sense8 was great.  Just finished it up the other day.  So very, very good.

 

Anyway....  Right now, I'll take 8 over 9 or 10.  I hate 9 -- the only episode I enjoy is Dog Dean Afternoon and some I genuinely loathe.  As for 10, it was a sloppy mess.  Carver said that Sam and Dean were just throwing things against the wall to see what would stick and I'm fairly certain he was actually talking about the people in the writer's room.

 

And then there's 11.  I can't not watch.  I'm like a poker player who is pot committed.  If I fold, I'll never know what hand my opponent was holding.  Yeah, I'm gonna lose, but there's a tiny chance they're bluffing....  

[Mick Lady]

I'm the one playing across from you Demented Daisy!

 

I actually liked season 10, more so on binge watch, but I've found that to be true of most seasons. Most shows to be honest with you. Mick and I do a lot of binge watching late into the night. Being retired has benefits!

 

I'm not sure how I feel about this whole "Darkness" bit. The "Bad Guy" of the season is getting old for me There's a bunch of material already presented they could revisit, Jesse only being one example. I am looking forward to Crowley's story in season 11, I've always loved him, an unpopular opinion I know.

 

supposebly, don't leave! We're a family here, and you're an important member!

I was thinking about how s11 could be different. I'll take it to the spec thread.

 

Don't! Stay away from the spec thread! I've just stopped babbling as a result of reading your last contribution there! 

[SueB]

Supposebly.... at least read Tippi's recaps on tumblr and come visit?  We'll miss you.  

[Aeryn13]

I think Season 10 was badly executed and the second half of Season 9 was iffy as well but I still take both of them vastly over Seasons 6, 7 or 8 and from what was said about Season 11 at Comic Con, that goes doubly so for that. If it`s a "Dean who"-Season, there is just no way it can be anything other than crap for me. And Season 11 was marketed as such big time by Carver and Dabb.  

[rue721]

supposebly, I'll miss you! Please keep coming by, even if the show isn't doing it for you atm. :)

 

I liked S6 and S7. Granted, there was too much going on in S6 (they should have just dumped the Alpha [Monster] plot imo, and I was disappointed that there wasn't ever really a payoff with Grampa Campbell, either). And S7 couldn't quite hit the right tone a lot of the time (imo the Leviathans were OK but needed a bit more of a creepiness factor. They weren't really scary or dark enough for me. YMMV, though). I thought both those seasons had some standout episodes, though, and more importantly, I thought there was a lot of potential in where the show was headed at that point. S7 especially started and ended strong imo.

 

I really wonder what would have happened if they'd given Sera Gamble more time as showrunner. She seemed like she was beginning to find her feet in terms of managing the staff, and I generally liked her vision for the show.

 

There are some shows that pair up their writers kind of randomly, and have a different team write each episode. The Originals does that, for example (and I think that show has very good writing. Diane Ademu-John is amazing at characterization imo, so I look forward to her episodes especially -- she's a writer to watch imo). It would have been (and would still be) interesting to see SPN pair up their writers randomly like that. I think overall, that would help SPN's writing a lot, because I think that forcing the writers to work in new pairs/combinations would probably force the writers to be less self-indulgent in their work and would probably force them out of their comfort zones (which, for some of them, have become "ruts" more than comfort zones at this point imo). I would still be especially curious to see a Gamble & Dabb collaboration.

 

Anyway, I wonder what S8 (and beyond, but y'know) would have been under Gamble instead of under Carver. What would her mytharc have been? How would she have handled Dean and Castiel disappearing into Purgatory? What would have happened to Sam and Kevin? (I'm certain she would not have done the Amelia storyline). How would she have handled Purgatory itself? Hm. Now I want to do an AU S8 premier. The dorkiest fanfic of all time -- an AU of "what if the writers' room had been staffed differently?!" :P

[Demented Daisy]

Taken to All Episodes.  :-)

Edited August 17, 2015 by Demented Daisy

[Omegamom]

I personally liked the Leviathan story line. I thought it was hilarious, and the writers had a lot of fun not taking themselves too seriously. At the same time, they were a kind of sneaky, creepy-in-a-different-way set of villains. Frank was one of my favorite off-the-wall characters...the perfect distillation of the oodles of conspiracy theorists you find wandering around the Internet. And we got Kevin! And Charlie! And the Tablets! And Hallucifer! And that lovely little bit where Emanuel remembers he's Cas! And that hilarious scene of Dick Roman and Crowley negotiating the contract! And Dick Roman was so smarmy and toothy and over the top!

Though they dumped Cas-as-God too quickly for me. And they killed off Bobby.

But, all in all, I liked S07. In overview, it was actually pretty thematically tight, I think.

I didn't like the first half of S06, but liked Cas being led to hell by a path paved with good intentions.

[catrox14]

Um, okay, sorry I misunderstood, I guess. I thought you were just asking how we could've changed S10 and made it more energetic. I have no suggestions on how to change S11 because there's nothing to actually change, as of yet.

Did you mean this towards me? Huh? Sorry I don't understand. I wasn't responding to anything here. I was just saying that I have been think about how s11 might be different from what we expect but it looks like the forum ate part of that post. and that I would take it to the spec thread

Yes I was asking how s10 could have been better and you did answer that.

[DittyDotDot]

Huh?....I don't remember now. That was like 24 hours ago and it was very hot and humid and....I'm also old, so there's also that. ;)

[Mick Lady]

I personally liked the Leviathan story line. I thought it was hilarious, and the writers had a lot of fun not taking themselves too seriously. At the same time, they were a kind of sneaky, creepy-in-a-different-way set of villains. Frank was one of my favorite off-the-wall characters...the perfect distillation of the oodles of conspiracy theorists you find wandering around the Internet. And we got Kevin! And Charlie! And the Tablets! And Hallucifer! And that lovely little bit where Emanuel remembers he's Cas! And that hilarious scene of Dick Roman and Crowley negotiating the contract! And Dick Roman was so smarmy and toothy and over the top!

Though they dumped Cas-as-God too quickly for me. And they killed off Bobby.

But, all in all, I liked S07. In overview, it was actually pretty thematically tight, I think.

I didn't like the first half of S06, but liked Cas being led to hell by a path paved with good intentions.

 

Omegamom, I am so with you! Frank was a great character! And I will always laugh like hell at "The Rise Of Dick"

 

I'm twelve.

[catrox14]

The best thing about s7 was Dick Roman.  Dick should rise again, because I love Dick. #sorrynotsorry

[Mick Lady]

catrox, stay out of the speculation thread! I just stopped eating my hair!

[catrox14]

catrox, stay out of the speculation thread! I just stopped eating my hair!

 

SOON

[mertensia]

I really liked the Leviathan storyline and I think the actor did a wonderful job as Dick.

[MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND]

I think Season 10 was badly executed and the second half of Season 9 was iffy as well but I still take both of them vastly over Seasons 6, 7 or 8 and from what was said about Season 11 at Comic Con, that goes doubly so for that. If it`s a "Dean who"-Season, there is just no way it can be anything other than crap for me. And Season 11 was marketed as such big time by Carver and Dabb.  

I enjoyed season 10. There were quite a few stand out episodes for me. The Werther Project, Inside Man, Soul Survivor, About A Boy, Fan Fiction....