“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Yeah, but it went on long enough that it had you wondering what was going on, didn't it?

Yes and no. Last Season, for the first time ever, I thought the MOTW episodes were just a major disappointment. Normally, I think they are the strongest part of the show but in Season 11 I found them to be really bad overall. And the Dabb-penned Red Meat was one of the worst. So when he was announced as showrunner, I was really afraid how things were gonna go.

The first episode, again penned by Dabb? Meh, had a lot of things I`ve come to expect from him as eye-roll-worthy but the Season was somewhat okay till Christmas break. Nothing to write home about and Perez right away got on my shitlist but I thought by far and large the Season was boring yet inoffensive.

The mid-Season-Opener, Dabb once more, was also not my thing. He has a penchant for doing certain tropes I hate. But the next two eps I liked.

And then it started, like my worst fears I had when Dabb was announced came true and then some. Episode after episode after episode. The worse it got and the longer it went on, I noticed, of course, but I didn`t wonder. Or rather I only wondered in the reverse, like why wasn`t the first half that bad?

Honestly, I never thought it had narrative reasons. Not once. The show is anvillicious as hell. When they want to make a point, everyone sees it. So I didn`t look for in-story-reasons. On this show, that`s not really necessary. I mean, for headcanons, sure but not for intended storylines. Those basically jump in your face. Since there was nothing there in way of explanation onscreen, I only came away with an explanation offscreen.      

[CluelessDrifter]

Replying in the Bitterness thread.

[Idahoforspn]

57 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

Yeah, but it went on long enough that it had you wondering what was going on, didn't it?  There has to be a reason for that, and like I said, Dean didn't get a single on-screen kill from the time they started to knowingly work with the BMoL until this last episode when they went to help someone in a totally BMoL-unrelated case.  Also, in LOTUS, Sam is the one who held the magic egg they got from the BMoL. They may not have been working with the BMoL then, but they got the tech from them, and it's because of a call Sam made (and then hung up on).

I have no explanation for Dean not getting to kill Ramiel with Michael's lance other than a petty check-list to have Sam kill a YED the way Dean did . . . as Perez said in his interview.  That's the one that annoyed me the most.  The rest, well, I had to start looking for a reason for it, and that's what I came up with to explain it, because I didn't want to get so angry with the show that there was no way for me to go back to enjoying it again.  I appreciate that it's not pleasant to watch a show that makes you cringe in embarrassment, and I'm sorry that was your viewing experience, but I never cringed when I saw Dean on-screen.  I was looking for the little acting tells that would give me his story.  Maybe I imagined them though.  That's totally possible.  I was looking really hard for something . . . anything.  :)

I think some of the stuff you saw was just Jensen doing anything he could with crummy writing.

[catrox14]

I can remember back as recently as s10 when each brother was treated by the writing in general as independent persons with different personalities, relationships, motivations, ideas, thoughts, dreams, desires, and their own words combined with navigating their relationship as brothers and their shared goal of saving the world via hunting/fixing the shit they broke with their choices. Those were allowed to stand as iconic for each character even the terrible things.

Until s11.

It's coming across to this viewer, that in s11 the show was STILL trying to rehab Sam and play to the viewers who still resent the choice to have Sam not look for Dean in s8. MO, I THINK the show was revisiting Sam being unsettled about the hunting life thus when Dean disappeared, Sam took the chance to get out of the hunting life when he thought he had nothing left and was tired of losing loved ones to the life and IMO wasn't a 100% OOC behavior but  I do go back and forth on that point. Obviously, it is up to each viewer to decide how they interpret it.

IMO they are using the old references and nostalgia as a soft retcon or reframe  Sam's story post s10 to say that he's finally decided he will stay with hunting and his brother no matter what. That goal, in and of itself, is not wrong or bad, but it's the execution of it by using Dean's words and repackaging and repurposing them as "new" because Sam is saying them is IMO not nostalgic as much as it is lazy. 

"Dad is on a hunting trip and hasn't been home in a few days " and "Saving people, hunting things , the family business ".  These words were the premise of the show in two lines spoken by Dean for a reason: it helped define Dean's character and personality juxtaposed with Sam's.  Did Dean get more "notable quotables"? Absolutely. Because he was the Han Solo to Sam's Luke Skywalker. 

It's not an insult to Sam that he did not have that personality nor those iconic lines because Sam had his own personality. He wasn't the "snarky, edgy one", because  IMO, it would not have worked for that kind, studious, serious young man who had fled his arguably abusive father and bossy older brother for college; who wanted out of the dangerous and difficult life they led; whose mother and girlfriend were immolated in his presence by the same demon  who force fed him demon blood whilst he was an infant; and who had psychic abilities, for him to be the snarky quipster too.   Even so, as the series progressed Sam did get to be funny in ways that suited Sam.  The classic, "I lost my shoe" line should never be re-purposed by Dean or for Dean for any reason. Also, Sam is a funny straight man. 

Sam typically got the big show defining visual savior moments as well for the most part. The falling backwards into the pit in a Jesus pose as he's literally saving the world. Dean was kneeling beside the closed pit, crying and bloodied.  That's never been re-purposed for Dean.

Dean receiving the Mark of Cain was an iconic, life altering moment for Dean.  Yet in s11, Sam is given the Mark and whilst thus far it hasn't amounted to anything, that is no longer iconic for Dean.

Sam restated the saving people part in 11.01 and the way it was written it strongly implies that Dean somehow forgot this even when he had the Mark which wasn't true because Dean still hunted and saved people (and killed humans under it's influence)

In s12, Sam literally restates 'Their mom is on a hunting trip" and it's framed that Dean is not valuing saving people over finding Cas. It's an inapt use for a few reasons:

1) Dean worrying about Cas wasn't SOLELY for Cas' sake and their relationship but because Dean believes that something is wrong with Cas if he's willing to have faith in Lucifer's spawn.
2)  It's a sudden overnight issue that arose with Cas because Dean LITERALLY said, ' When I looked at him last night, I did not recognize the face staring back at me".  It's not like Cas had been gone for a week.  It was weirdly shaming of Dean for wanting to help Cas because he thinks there is something majorly wrong with Cas after what he witnessed literally the night before.

3) Dean had been out hunting and saving people with Sam during the time Cas went radio silent.

The Colt:

That was a quid pro quo use by Sam after Dean shot Azazel with it. As others have mentioned, Davy Perez said it himself.

Hell:

Never mind the minimizing of Dean's Hell time vs the maximizing of Sam's for like a year all told, the shot of Dean, with hooks through his shoulders and gut, suspended in Hell was classic and iconic.  In s11, they showed the Cage suspended in Hell reminiscent of Dean hanging on hooks in Hell. That iconic Dean moment is now essentially shared with Sam because we know Sam was in the Cage with Lucifer and Michael.

The Lance of Michael - Michael was aligned with Dean on every level in s5. Sam kills Ramiel with the Lance of Michael.

What is the narrative necessity for Sam to have Dean's lines repackaged and for Sam to be aligned with things that were heavily Dean iconic to prove Sam wants to keep hunting? Are the writers just not clever enough to be creative with Sam? I would not gripe as much about this if I saw Dean being given iconic Sam moments or Sam's lines being repurposed for Dean, although I don't want that to happen either but frankly, it would look less like it's purposefully detrimental to Dean.

I can think of one moment that was a shared iconic moment that was re-purposed for Dean's characterization  and that was "Jerk/Bitch" between demon!Dean and Crowley and was revisited by Sam!Marie and Dean in Fan Fiction but was aligned with Dean being told by Marie to take the fake Samulet  as part of Dean and Sam reuniting after demon!Dean. 

Are there others than I'm not recollecting?

Writers, feel free to write original, iconic things for Sam.  I bet you can, if you stopped relying on nostalgia.

[Idahoforspn]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I can remember back as recently as s10 when each brother was treated by the writing in general as independent persons with different personalities, relationships, motivations, ideas, thoughts, dreams, desires, and their own words combined with navigating their relationship as brothers and their shared goal of saving the world via hunting/fixing the shit they broke with their choices. Those were allowed to stand as iconic for each character even the terrible things.

Until s11.

It's coming across to this viewer, that in s11 the show was STILL trying to rehab Sam and play to the viewers who still resent the choice to have Sam not look for Dean in s8. MO, I THINK the show was revisiting Sam being unsettled about the hunting life thus when Dean disappeared, Sam took the chance to get out of the hunting life when he thought he had nothing left and was tired of losing loved ones to the life and IMO wasn't a 100% OOC behavior but  I do go back and forth on that point. Obviously, it is up to each viewer to decide how they interpret it.

IMO they are using the old references and nostalgia as a soft retcon or reframe  Sam's story post s10 to say that he's finally decided he will stay with hunting and his brother no matter what. That goal, in and of itself, is not wrong or bad, but it's the execution of it by using Dean's words and repackaging and repurposing them as "new" because Sam is saying them is IMO not nostalgic as much as it is lazy. 

"Dad is on a hunting trip and hasn't been home in a few days " and "Saving people, hunting things , the family business ".  These words were the premise of the show in two lines spoken by Dean for a reason: it helped define Dean's character and personality juxtaposed with Sam's.  Did Dean get more "notable quotables"? Absolutely. Because he was the Han Solo to Sam's Luke Skywalker. 

It's not an insult to Sam that he did not have that personality nor those iconic lines because Sam had his own personality. He wasn't the "snarky, edgy one", because  IMO, it would not have worked for that kind, studious, serious young man who had fled his arguably abusive father and bossy older brother for college; who wanted out of the dangerous and difficult life they led; whose mother and girlfriend were immolated in his presence by the same demon  who force fed him demon blood whilst he was an infant; and who had psychic abilities, for him to be the snarky quipster too.   Even so, as the series progressed Sam did get to be funny in ways that suited Sam.  The classic, "I lost my shoe" line should never be re-purposed by Dean or for Dean for any reason. Also, Sam is a funny straight man. 

Sam typically got the big show defining visual savior moments as well for the most part. The falling backwards into the pit in a Jesus pose as he's literally saving the world. Dean was kneeling beside the closed pit, crying and bloodied.  That's never been re-purposed for Dean.

Dean receiving the Mark of Cain was an iconic, life altering moment for Dean.  Yet in s11, Sam is given the Mark and whilst thus far it hasn't amounted to anything, that is no longer iconic for Dean.

Sam restated the saving people part in 11.01 and the way it was written it strongly implies that Dean somehow forgot this even when he had the Mark which wasn't true because Dean still hunted and saved people (and killed humans under it's influence)

In s12, Sam literally restates 'Their mom is on a hunting trip" and it's framed that Dean is not valuing saving people over finding Cas. It's an inapt use for a few reasons:

1) Dean worrying about Cas wasn't SOLELY for Cas' sake and their relationship but because Dean believes that something is wrong with Cas if he's willing to have faith in Lucifer's spawn.
2)  It's a sudden overnight issue that arose with Cas because Dean LITERALLY said, ' When I looked at him last night, I did not recognize the face staring back at me".  It's not like Cas had been gone for a week.  It was weirdly shaming of Dean for wanting to help Cas because he thinks there is something majorly wrong with Cas after what he witnessed literally the night before.

3) Dean had been out hunting and saving people with Sam during the time Cas went radio silent.

The Colt:

That was a quid pro quo use by Sam after Dean shot Azazel with it. As others have mentioned, Davy Perez said it himself.

Hell:

Never mind the minimizing of Dean's Hell time vs the maximizing of Sam's for like a year all told, the shot of Dean, with hooks through his shoulders and gut, suspended in Hell was classic and iconic.  In s11, they showed the Cage suspended in Hell reminiscent of Dean hanging on hooks in Hell. That iconic Dean moment is now essentially shared with Sam because we know Sam was in the Cage with Lucifer and Michael.

The Lance of Michael - Michael was aligned with Dean on every level in s5. Sam kills Ramiel with the Lance of Michael.

What is the narrative necessity for Sam to have Dean's lines repackaged and for Sam to be aligned with things that were heavily Dean iconic to prove Sam wants to keep hunting? Are the writers just not clever enough to be creative with Sam? I would not gripe as much about this if I saw Dean being given iconic Sam moments or Sam's lines being repurposed for Dean, although I don't want that to happen either but frankly, it would look less like it's purposefully detrimental to Dean.

I can think of one moment that was a shared iconic moment that was re-purposed for Dean's characterization  and that was "Jerk/Bitch" between demon!Dean and Crowley and was revisited by Sam!Marie and Dean in Fan Fiction but was aligned with Dean being told by Marie to take the fake Samulet  as part of Dean and Sam reuniting after demon!Dean. 

Are there others than I'm not recollecting?

Writers, feel free to write original, iconic things for Sam.  I bet you can, if you stopped relying on nostalgia.

I couldn't agree more!

[FlickChick]

7 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

I couldn't agree more!

Ditto!!!!!

[Reganne]

27 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 

"IMO they are using the old references and nostalgia as a soft retcon or reframe  Sam's story post s10 to say that he's finally decided he will stay with hunting and his brother no matter what. That goal, in and of itself, is not wrong or bad, but it's the execution of it by using Dean's words and repackaging and repurposing them as "new" because Sam is saying them is IMO not nostalgic as much as it is lazy."

 

 

"Sam typically got the big show defining visual savior moments as well for the most part. The falling backwards into the pit in a Jesus pose as he's literally saving the world. Dean was kneeling beside the closed pit, crying and bloodied.  That's never been re-purposed for Dean."

 

"Dean receiving the Mark of Cain was an iconic, life altering moment for Dean.  Yet in s11, Sam is given the Mark and whilst thus far it hasn't amounted to anything, that is no longer iconic for Dean."

 

 

Personally, I think of the "Hunting Trip" line to be more of a way for Sam to get Dean interested in the possible case as well as a nostalgic reference and a call back to the first season. I personally wouldn't care if Dean did say something that Sam said in a previous episode.  It wouldn't bother me, but I guess everyone is different and feels differently about those situations.  

 

As for the visual savior moments, I would have to disagree.  With season 5, yes.  Not with season 2 though.  Dean got the big visual saviour moment with the whole shot of him firing off the colt and the great vengeful look in his eyes and the bullet coming out with the fire.  That is one of the greatest visuals in the series IMO.  Sam was just stuck standing by a tree.  He didn't do anything.  Wasn't bloodied or didn't sacrifice himself in a major way to the story arc either like Dean did in season 2.  Then there is also season 7, where Dean took down Dick Roman.

With the MOC, I was under the impression that they attempted to give Sam the mark, but Amara put a stop to it before it finished.  Meaning Sam never really truly had the mark at all.  It disappeared before they could finish it and he never had the mark stay on his arm.  Dean actually had the mark scarred on his arm... unlike Sam.  His disappeared because Amara wasn't trapped in it at the moment.  Dean also had the whole dark storyline that came from it.  Something that will never happen with Sam because he doesn't have the mark.  It disappeared in mere seconds after they tried to trap Amara.  Their attempt was a mere failure when they tried to give it to Sam so I don't see how it could possibly ever amount to anything.  

[Idahoforspn]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I can remember back as recently as s10 when each brother was treated by the writing in general as independent persons with different personalities, relationships, motivations, ideas, thoughts, dreams, desires, and their own words combined with navigating their relationship as brothers and their shared goal of saving the world via hunting/fixing the shit they broke with their choices. Those were allowed to stand as iconic for each character even the terrible things.

Until s11.

It's coming across to this viewer, that in s11 the show was STILL trying to rehab Sam and play to the viewers who still resent the choice to have Sam not look for Dean in s8. MO, I THINK the show was revisiting Sam being unsettled about the hunting life thus when Dean disappeared, Sam took the chance to get out of the hunting life when he thought he had nothing left and was tired of losing loved ones to the life and IMO wasn't a 100% OOC behavior but  I do go back and forth on that point. Obviously, it is up to each viewer to decide how they interpret it.

IMO they are using the old references and nostalgia as a soft retcon or reframe  Sam's story post s10 to say that he's finally decided he will stay with hunting and his brother no matter what. That goal, in and of itself, is not wrong or bad, but it's the execution of it by using Dean's words and repackaging and repurposing them as "new" because Sam is saying them is IMO not nostalgic as much as it is lazy. 

"Dad is on a hunting trip and hasn't been home in a few days " and "Saving people, hunting things , the family business ".  These words were the premise of the show in two lines spoken by Dean for a reason: it helped define Dean's character and personality juxtaposed with Sam's.  Did Dean get more "notable quotables"? Absolutely. Because he was the Han Solo to Sam's Luke Skywalker. 

It's not an insult to Sam that he did not have that personality nor those iconic lines because Sam had his own personality. He wasn't the "snarky, edgy one", because  IMO, it would not have worked for that kind, studious, serious young man who had fled his arguably abusive father and bossy older brother for college; who wanted out of the dangerous and difficult life they led; whose mother and girlfriend were immolated in his presence by the same demon  who force fed him demon blood whilst he was an infant; and who had psychic abilities, for him to be the snarky quipster too.   Even so, as the series progressed Sam did get to be funny in ways that suited Sam.  The classic, "I lost my shoe" line should never be re-purposed by Dean or for Dean for any reason. Also, Sam is a funny straight man. 

Sam typically got the big show defining visual savior moments as well for the most part. The falling backwards into the pit in a Jesus pose as he's literally saving the world. Dean was kneeling beside the closed pit, crying and bloodied.  That's never been re-purposed for Dean.

Dean receiving the Mark of Cain was an iconic, life altering moment for Dean.  Yet in s11, Sam is given the Mark and whilst thus far it hasn't amounted to anything, that is no longer iconic for Dean.

Sam restated the saving people part in 11.01 and the way it was written it strongly implies that Dean somehow forgot this even when he had the Mark which wasn't true because Dean still hunted and saved people (and killed humans under it's influence)

In s12, Sam literally restates 'Their mom is on a hunting trip" and it's framed that Dean is not valuing saving people over finding Cas. It's an inapt use for a few reasons:

1) Dean worrying about Cas wasn't SOLELY for Cas' sake and their relationship but because Dean believes that something is wrong with Cas if he's willing to have faith in Lucifer's spawn.
2)  It's a sudden overnight issue that arose with Cas because Dean LITERALLY said, ' When I looked at him last night, I did not recognize the face staring back at me".  It's not like Cas had been gone for a week.  It was weirdly shaming of Dean for wanting to help Cas because he thinks there is something majorly wrong with Cas after what he witnessed literally the night before.

 

The Colt:

That was a quid pro quo use by Sam after Dean shot Azazel with it. As others have mentioned, Davy Perez 

 

Actually Perez said the quid pro quo was Sam being able to kill Ramiel because Dean killed Azazel. They haven't said why everybody but Dean has had the opportunity to use the Colt. Anyway, that's what I thought I read at the time.

[catrox14]

Just now, Idahoforspn said:

Actually Perez said the quid pro quo was Sam being able to kill Ramiel because Dean killed Azazel. They haven't said why everybody but Dean has had the opportunity to use the Colt. Anyway, that's what I thought I read at the time.

That's what I meant . Sorry if I wasn't clear

[Idahoforspn]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

 

Hell:

Never mind the minimizing of Dean's Hell time vs the maximizing of Sam's for like a year all told, the shot of Dean, with hooks through his shoulders and gut, suspended in Hell was classic and iconic.  In s11, they showed the Cage suspended in Hell reminiscent of Dean hanging on hooks in Hell. That iconic Dean moment is now essentially shared with Sam because we know Sam was in the Cage with Lucifer and Michael.

For me, that few seconds of Dean suspended on hooks was a much more terrifying representation of hell than anything after. Everything since has gotten lamer and lamer. And to think we have a writers strike for pretty much saving the show in it's early years. I am probably alone here but I found the hell and Lucifer in Sam's mind scenes more hilarious than scary. I haven't liked a portrayal of Lucifer after season 5. I wish they would let him go for good.

[auntvi]

4 hours ago, CluelessDrifter said:

When Dean shows up at the motel and Cas opens the door holding the Colt, Dean pointedly says, "Yeah, that's mine."

I didn't even notice that Dean said "mine". I guess I just heard him say "ours", because the colt belongs to both of them. Actually, the cool thing about the colt is that is doesn't really belong permanently to anyone and travels through time. Samuel Colt made it and used it.  Dean "borrowed" it from the hunter (can't remember his name) during his trip to Mary's time. Crowley picked it up when it failed to kill Lucifer. Then in more time travel, Samuel Colt gave it to Sam who gave it to Dean to kill the phoenix. Samuel Colt actually sent it to Sam in the future, which is where time folds again and I lose track. At any rate, IMO the colt doesn't belong to Dean, it belongs to Sam & Dean.

[CluelessDrifter]

9 hours ago, auntvi said:

I didn't even notice that Dean said "mine". I guess I just heard him say "ours", because the colt belongs to both of them. Actually, the cool thing about the colt is that is doesn't really belong permanently to anyone and travels through time. Samuel Colt made it and used it.  Dean "borrowed" it from the hunter (can't remember his name) during his trip to Mary's time. Crowley picked it up when it failed to kill Lucifer. Then in more time travel, Samuel Colt gave it to Sam who gave it to Dean to kill the phoenix. Samuel Colt actually sent it to Sam in the future, which is where time folds again and I lose track. At any rate, IMO the colt doesn't belong to Dean, it belongs to Sam & Dean.

I appreciate what you're saying in that it belongs to both of them, but IMO it started off as being something that brought John, Sam, and Dean back together again in season one, so at that point it was all of theirs, but then John sold his soul AND the Colt to save Dean, and that's why I associate it with Dean, especially since we didn't see it again until Dean used it to kill Azazel, one of the most iconic scenes in the whole show.  Bobby, Sam, and Dean may have all used the Colt in season 3, but Bela stealing the Colt is arguably one of the reasons Dean went to Hell.  Why else would Lilith have Bela steal it from them if it wasn't something that could be used to defend Dean?  While both Winchesters ran the gambit of emotions for the stages of dying in season 3, from Sam trying to use the Colt to force a reversal of the deal (bargaining) to denial, depression, anger, and so on, it was Dean finding out that the Colt was truly gone from Bela in Time Is on My Side that lead to his acceptance of his impending death.  It's when he gave up hope and had to face reality, a reality that Sam still couldn't accept.  When we see the Colt again after that, Ellen and Jo sacrifice their lives on the hope that the Colt will work on Lucifer in Abandon All Hope.  Dean's the one who used it against Lucifer, and it didn't work.  It's when Dean literally abandoned all hope and started to spiral, which lead to him wanting to agree to be Michael's vessel.  Dean's the one who used it on the Phoenix, so they could kill Eve.  

Until it came back this season, Sam had only used it to kill a demon in Sin City (after Bobby also used it to kill a demon in Sin City) and to kill a crossroads demon in Bedtime Stories.  The rest of the time he either used the Colt as a way to get Azazel out of John, so it wasn't a kill, or he missed.  I can see why it's more associated with Dean, and I can see why Dean said it was his, but that's just me, and I can see why you might see it as both of theirs too.  It's certainly something they've both tethered their hope to at one point or another.

Edited May 7, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[Katy M]

9 hours ago, auntvi said:

Then in more time travel, Samuel Colt gave it to Sam who gave it to Dean to kill the phoenix. Samuel Colt actually sent it to Sam in the future, which is where time folds again and I lose track. At any rate, IMO the colt doesn't belong to Dean, it belongs to Sam & Dean.

Samuel Colt didn't send the Colt to Sam in the future.  He sent him the phoenix ashes.  If he had sent the Colt into the future, history would have been changed as they would have  had no way to kill the yellow-eyed demon.

[DittyDotDot]

12 hours ago, auntvi said:

I didn't even notice that Dean said "mine". I guess I just heard him say "ours", because the colt belongs to both of them. Actually, the cool thing about the colt is that is doesn't really belong permanently to anyone and travels through time. Samuel Colt made it and used it.  Dean "borrowed" it from the hunter (can't remember his name) during his trip to Mary's time. Crowley picked it up when it failed to kill Lucifer. Then in more time travel, Samuel Colt gave it to Sam who gave it to Dean to kill the phoenix. Samuel Colt actually sent it to Sam in the future, which is where time folds again and I lose track. At any rate, IMO the colt doesn't belong to Dean, it belongs to Sam & Dean.

The Colt didn't travel through time, other than normal existence through time:

• Samuel Colt made it in 1835.
• Sam and Dean traveled back in time and used Samuel Colt's gun to kill the Phoenix in 1861
• At some point the Elkins family take possession of the gun; maybe Colt left it to them after he died? 
• Dean borrowed the Colt from Daniel Elkins in 1973 to kill Yellow Eyes, but told him he could get it back from the Campbells in Lawrence, Kansas. Presumably he retrieved the gun since it was it was Daniel Elkins the vampires took it from after they killed him in S1.
• The Winchesters stole it from the vampires in S1 to use against Yellow Eyes, but only ended up wounding John with it.
• In S2, John trades it and his life to Yellow Eyes for Dean's life. Yellow Eyes then gives it to Jake to open the hell gate lock Samuel Colt had built. Dean uses it to kill Yellow Eyes at the end of S2. 
• The Colt was then in their possession until Bela steals it in S3 and gives it to Crowley who gives it back to Sam and Dean in S5.
• Dean dropped it at the end of Abandon All Hope after it failed to kill the Devil and was picked up, apparently, by Crowley who gave it to Ramiel at the end of S5.
• It's been in Ramiel's possession until Mary stole it for the Brits this season.

So, the Colt they used in 1861 was Samuel Colt's gun and it was left in Sunrise, Wyoming in the past--Dean dropped it on the ground when he dove in to get the Phoenix ash just before Cass zapped them back. Samuel Colt sent Sam the Phoenix ash--not the Colt--but again, that wasn't time travel. The package sat in some dead letter office until the proper date to be delivered.

However, Dean did say, "That's mine," when they showed up at Cass's hotel room. Which I found funny and endearing, myself.

Edited May 7, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Bessie]

I thought it was pretty adorable too. Although, to tell you the truth, I don't care who has or fires the colt because it's kind of a traveling weapon. It gets around!  The grenade launcher, on the other hand, belongs to Dean. Full-stop. I don't want to see anyone but him using that weapon. (They better let him use it or I'm going to be pissed!)

[DittyDotDot]

19 minutes ago, Bessie said:

I thought it was pretty adorable too. Although, to tell you the truth, I don't care who has or fires the colt because it's kind of a traveling weapon. It gets around!  The grenade launcher, on the other hand, belongs to Dean. Full-stop. I don't want to see anyone but him using that weapon. (They better let him use it or I'm going to be pissed!)

I don't care about who uses what weapon or who kills what, but I kinda hope no on ever uses the grenade launcher. I think it's funnier he keeps wanting to use it and never does--like how Dean never used to get to eat his pie. But, since we can't really have nice things, I fully expect the show to ruin it for me. ;)

Edited May 7, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Reganne]

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't care about who uses what weapon or who kill what, but I kinda hope no on ever uses the grenade launcher. I think it's funnier he keeps wanting to use it and never does--like how Dean never used to get to eat his pie. But, since we can't really have nice things, I fully expect the show to ruin it for me. ;)

I'm the exact opposite.  The running gag would get stale for me if they actually never use it.  TBH, the only time I thought it was funny this season was when it had the note attached to it "NO!" in Regarding Dean.  I want to see it be used.  lol

[DittyDotDot]

6 minutes ago, Reganne said:

I'm the exact opposite.  The running gag would get stale for me if they actually never use it.  TBH, the only time I thought it was funny this season was when it had the note attached to it "NO!" in Regarding Dean.  I want to see it be used.  lol

I just figure, it's a grenade launcher; it launches grenades that blow things up. I think him getting to use is pretty anti-climatic, myself. I'd rather they keep it a fun character beat, but I expect they won't.

[Bessie]

9 minutes ago, Reganne said:

TBH, the only time I thought it was funny this season was when it had the note attached to it "NO!" in Regarding Dean.

That was one of the funniest moments this season for me. 

[Reganne]

14 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I just figure, it's a grenade launcher; it launches grenades that blow things up. I think him getting to use is pretty anti-climatic, myself. I'd rather they keep it a fun character beat, but I expect they won't.

I want to see something blow up big.   Lol Maybe in a rage of revenge of some sorts.  I think Dean could pull that off nicely. ☺

[Katy M]

Can someone refresh my memory as to where the grenade launcher came from?  I honestly don't remember. I was thinking it came from Ketch after Lotus, but then I remember that Dean wanted to use it in the Hitler epi before that, and now I'm just going nuts.

[DittyDotDot]

Just now, Katy M said:

Can someone refresh my memory as to where the grenade launcher came from?  I honestly don't remember. I was thinking it came from Ketch after Lotus, but then I remember that Dean wanted to use it in the Hitler epi before that, and now I'm just going nuts.

As far as I know, it's been in the trunk since the beginning. It's just that this seasons they've turned it into a runner.

[Bessie]

According to spnwiki, it was seen in the trunk in the pilot. I don't remember that, but that's what they say. 

[DittyDotDot]

I remember it being in there, but not sure I noticed it in the Pilot. Can't say for sure when I noticed it was in the trunk...maybe after I watched the S3 featurette on Babay? Maybe before that...I do remember Jensen making a joke of when they would get to use that grenade launcher some many years ago.

I also keep waiting for them to use the throwing stars--ninja style! ;)

[AwesomO4000]

I've bolded a few points for those who would rather too long: didn't read my post. Sorry for the length. Apparently I had a lot to say.

18 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I can think of one moment that was a shared iconic moment that was re-purposed for Dean's characterization  and that was "Jerk/Bitch" between demon!Dean and Crowley and was revisited by Sam!Marie and Dean in Fan Fiction but was aligned with Dean being told by Marie to take the fake Samulet  as part of Dean and Sam reuniting after demon!Dean. 

Are there others than I'm not recollecting?

There are a few, but the one I remember most, most viewers didn't consider it a problem that Dean was given one of Sam's few iconic earlier lines. Most liked the callback. It didn't bother me, but I remember it, because it was an iconic episode and the line was word for word (incorrect English and all), and even the action (closing the trunk while saying it) and moment set up (view from inside the trunk) was pretty much the same. And that was the iconic "We got work to do" originally from Sam in "Pilot," but said by Dean in "Fan Fiction" (arguably an important milestone episode) to solidify that Dean wants to go back to hunting after his "time away." For Dean that "time away" was him being a demon and wasn't as long as Sam's time away in college, nor was the motivation exactly the same - Sam's was partly grief and revenge, for example - but it was an iconic line and moment given to Dean that was originally Sam's. Your miles might vary on that, but I thought it was pretty much an iconic moment they now share.

I can't off the top of my head remember any other lines as obvious as that one (which doesn't mean I might not remember later), but at least one of what I consider could be iconic Sam "things" usually ends up with Dean: the demon knife. Arguably, Sam is considered the one known for his knives (while Dean is more of the marksman), but even though the knife was Ruby's and arguably should be associated with Sam for that reason, generally the demon knife is seen with and used by Dean after season 4. He was the one to kill Ruby with it, and he's generally the one seen carrying it. I'm not sure exactly when it transferred over to Dean much of the time, but at some point it did. I agree that Dean is more associated with the Colt, and he's usually the one more concerned with it and where it is, and to me that makes sense. But the demon knife makes less sense, except maybe for the reasoning that Dean often takes point.

19 hours ago, catrox14 said:

It's coming across to this viewer, that in s11 the show was STILL trying to rehab Sam and play to the viewers who still resent the choice to have Sam not look for Dean in s8. MO, I THINK the show was revisiting Sam being unsettled about the hunting life thus when Dean disappeared, Sam took the chance to get out of the hunting life when he thought he had nothing left and was tired of losing loved ones to the life and IMO wasn't a 100% OOC behavior but  I do go back and forth on that point. Obviously, it is up to each viewer to decide how they interpret it.

I guess after thinking about it, for me it wasn't necessarily that Sam wanting to get out of the hunting life was revisited again. It was the way it was done. Even though I thought that season 5 made it fairly clear Sam didn't really want out of hunting anymore, I could see everything happening in season 6 and 7 maybe making Sam want to change his mind and go back to leaving the life behind. No problem there. BUT - and it's a big but... They took that iconic Sam original character beat and presented it unsympathetically, therefore equating it with being bad and wrong.

They didn't have Sam originally try to look for Dean for a short time period or even make sure that he was say in heaven or something. They didn't even have him conclude that - if finding out he was in Purgatory - conclude that poking that bear again could potentially be a bad thing for the world, so he would just have to wait for something better than trying to stir that up. Nope the writers had Sam shrug his shoulders and walk away. And that walking away included abandoning Kevin, too. Little attempt was made to make Sam's side look in any way sympathetic. It was presented as selfish and wrong. It was all "Eeeeeat me"s and reprimands from Bobby and Benny being loyal and good to show us that Sam was selfish and wrong, wrong, wrong in wanting to give up the hunting life. So the writers basically took an iconic, sympathetic, and understandable early Sam trait and turned it into something ugly... Rhetoric after the fact trying to say something different and that obviously didn't match what was shown onscreen - with "Citizen Fang" being for me the final blow that they were even attempting to shown Sam's side as sympathetic in the least - for me just made it worse. And then in the service of that iconic character trait destruction, they even took another supposed Sam trait - Sam generally being the one to give the "monster" the benefit of the doubt - and trashed that too with Sam hating Benny on sight and insisting that he, Sam, would likely kill Benny. They even took Sam's propensity to forgive and threw that out the window, too, by having Sam bring up Amy, and later not forgive Dean in season 9, so...

19 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I can remember back as recently as s10 when each brother was treated by the writing in general as independent persons with different personalities, relationships, motivations, ideas, thoughts, dreams, desires, and their own words combined with navigating their relationship as brothers and their shared goal of saving the world via hunting/fixing the shit they broke with their choices. Those were allowed to stand as iconic for each character even the terrible things.

I somewhat disagree with this point. Some of the things that were iconic to Sam's character were being taken away or twisted, for me, even before season 10. Even understandable differences - such as Sam once considering a non-hunting life - were once and for all shown in a bad light. Other character traits were just taken away and forgotten, especially Sam being forgiving, which was trashed and forgotten (imo) in both season 8 and 9 in favor of angst and forwarding the plot.

Pretty much only the negative Sam character traits were left standing*... and this is why they had to regroup Sam after seasons 8 and 9 and do character damage control. If the writers had allowed Sam to remain as the independent character that he had been and presented him sympathetically in season 8 and 9, in my opinion, there wouldn't have been a need for that. But they didn't. They even gave Dean some of Sam's positive character traits... yes, Dean later on in the series was more willing to give monsters the benefit of the doubt, but if either brother was going to have a friendship with a monster, I would more have expected it to be Sam rather than Dean... with even as recently as the Amy example more pointing in that direction.

For me, the main point of season 8 - 9 was taking Sam as a character and showing that he should be more like Dean rather than like Sam, and taking away or twisting some of Sam's positive character traits was a part of that. The problem now is that they instead are using shorthand sometimes to create differences between them, but the damage was pretty much done in season 8 and 9, and to a certain extent season 10, in my opinion, and now the current writers are I think having a tough time going back without things looking to some as "pro-Sam." For example, I thought that season 11 was great and went a long way to making the brothers more equal again - rather than "bad" Sam or "screw up" Sam and "good" and "right" Dean we pretty much had, imo, in seasons 8-10- but some saw it as too "pro-Sam," so...

* Even Sam's propensity for hope and finding a better way were pretty much taken away in season 8 - and Dean had to give it back to Sam in the finale. Season 9 was iffy as to whether Sam continued to have that hope. I'm glad at least it came back in season 10 - even if it was mostly so that Sam would screw up again and cause the Amara apocalypse. *Sigh* If nothing else, I will always be grateful that it was likely Dabb who brought back Sam's hope and presented it once again as a good thing.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

 I think having a tough time going back without things looking to some as "pro-Sam." For example, I thought that season 11 was great and went a long way to making the brothers more equal again - rather than "bad" Sam or "screw up" Sam and "good" and "right" Dean we pretty much had, imo, in seasons 8-10- but some saw it as too "pro-Sam," so...

Dabb IMO has a penchant for doing "strong Sam" vs. "weak Dean". Even when Sam is the one captured and tortured in the Season Prremiere, he is the badass. Dean gets beat up by two women. Dean is the one who "breaks" after 6 weeks of prison and his own hell gets diminished as even easier than that. Sam, though mortally wounded, kills all the werewolves while weak Dean needs to kill himself to make a deal for Sam.

It`s not enough to present Sam as strong, it needs to be juxtaposed by Dean being physically and emotionally weak. And even when he is strong, the dialogue will tell us he is weak or it will get ignored. I see it all over Seasons 11 and 12 and that`s why they don`t appear remotely equal to me.

Weakness is bar none the worst character trait a fictional character can have in my eyes. So of all bad attributes to suddenly pinpoint on my favourite character, Dabb zoomed in on the very worst. Thanks for nothing. 

On top of that, wise, caring Sam needs to lecture poor dumb Dean on value of saving people. Several times over. Should we just pretend Dean never expressed these values in the first place in earlier Season? I guess so.

To me the most balanced Seasons were Seasons 2 and 4 because it had balance in the things I value. In Season 4 we had a shared narrative importance between the characters and in Season 2 while Sam had the mystery mytharc with powers, Dean was allowed to be a strong character. Emphasis on strong.  

Edited May 7, 2017 by Aeryn13

[auntvi]

29 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Pretty much only the negative Sam character traits were left standing*... and this is why they had to regroup Sam after seasons 8 and 9 and do character damage control. If the writers had allowed Sam to remain as the independent character that he had been and presented him sympathetically in season 8 and 9, in my opinion, there wouldn't have been a need for that. But they didn't. They even gave Dean some of Sam's positive character traits... yes, Dean later on in the series was more willing to give monsters the benefit of the doubt, but if either brother was going to have a friendship with a monster, I would more have expected it to be Sam rather than Dean... with even as recently as the Amy example more pointing in that direction.

For me, the main point of season 8 - 9 was taking Sam as a character and showing that he should be more like Dean rather than like Sam, and taking away or twisting some of Sam's positive character traits was a part of that. The problem now is that they instead are using shorthand sometimes to create differences between them, but the damage was pretty much done in season 8 and 9, and to a certain extent season 10, in my opinion, and now the current writers are I think having a tough time going back without things looking to some as "pro-Sam." For example, I thought that season 11 was great and went a long way to making the brothers more equal again - rather than "bad" Sam or "screw up" Sam and "good" and "right" Dean we pretty much had, imo, in seasons 8-10- but some saw it as too "pro-Sam," so...

* Even Sam's propensity for hope and finding a better way were pretty much taken away in season 8 - and Dean had to give it back to Sam in the finale. Season 9 was iffy as to whether Sam continued to have that hope. I'm glad at least it came back in season 10 - even if it was mostly so that Sam would screw up again and cause the Amara apocalypse. *Sigh* If nothing else, I will always be grateful that it was likely Dabb who brought back Sam's hope and presented it once again as a good thing.

Thank you. This explains so much.

[CluelessDrifter]

22 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Yes and no. Last Season, for the first time ever, I thought the MOTW episodes were just a major disappointment. Normally, I think they are the strongest part of the show but in Season 11 I found them to be really bad overall. And the Dabb-penned Red Meat was one of the worst. So when he was announced as showrunner, I was really afraid how things were gonna go.

The first episode, again penned by Dabb? Meh, had a lot of things I`ve come to expect from him as eye-roll-worthy but the Season was somewhat okay till Christmas break. Nothing to write home about and Perez right away got on my shitlist but I thought by far and large the Season was boring yet inoffensive.

The mid-Season-Opener, Dabb once more, was also not my thing. He has a penchant for doing certain tropes I hate. But the next two eps I liked.

And then it started, like my worst fears I had when Dabb was announced came true and then some. Episode after episode after episode. The worse it got and the longer it went on, I noticed, of course, but I didn`t wonder. Or rather I only wondered in the reverse, like why wasn`t the first half that bad?

Honestly, I never thought it had narrative reasons. Not once. The show is anvillicious as hell. When they want to make a point, everyone sees it. So I didn`t look for in-story-reasons. On this show, that`s not really necessary. I mean, for headcanons, sure but not for intended storylines. Those basically jump in your face. Since there was nothing there in way of explanation onscreen, I only came away with an explanation offscreen.      

I responded in the bitterness thread, about my thoughts on Dabb as a showrunner, but I wanted to add something here about anvils.  If you want anvils on where the Winchesters, but especially Dean, are this season, look at The Memory Remains.  The sheriff was a mirror for Dean.  He was so jaded when they went to talk to him about the first missing kid that he was more interested in taxidermy than trying to find him, and in the very next scene we have Dean being more interested in the waitress than the hunt. A little later, he was more interested in the burger than the hunt.  

The sheriff had a family with a dark past that he tried to put behind him by doing something good with his life, which only lead to disappointment.  We see this in the way he talks about the kid he tried to save from an abusive family.  It didn't work and things got worse for the kid (and then got worse again when he was killed by a god, but the sheriff didn't know that then).  He wouldn't work for the monster, and the family business started going under, which would have ruined the town.

Then you have the sheriff's brother.  His brother wanted the family business to succeed, so he chose to work for Moloch.  His hope was that when Moloch got stronger, he'd not only become rich, but he'd save the town.  This closely parallel's Sam in some ways with the BMoL.  To keep Moloch fed, innocents had to die.  To give the BMoL what they want, innocents (monsters and humans) have to die.  Sam may not know about the humans who have been killed by Ketch, but he did sign up for the BMoL even after he heard that they were going to exterminate all the vampires in North America and his Mom told him that they were going to make the world a monster-free world.  Mary also suggested he could have a normal life.  Riches in the form of a normal life and saving the world . . . pretty similar to the sheriff's brother.  

The brother told the sheriff that he was done following his plan, because he'd been following it his whole life, and all he'd gotten was crap for it.  Ultimately, Sam killed him, and I think that's because unlike the brother, when Sam sees the BMoL in all their evil glory, he won't want to work with them.  He may still want to adopt their structure and toys, but not their philosophy.  Anyway, I saw the parallels between the two sets of brothers as anvils.  I also see Dean not killing anything as long as he's been knowingly working with the BMoL as another anvil, as well as Sam killing everything while working with them as another.  I was a little shaky on it until Dean got to kill the witch in TTaTB, because that wasn't a BMoL case.  It was a personal one, but take it for what it's worth, just an opinion by one person.  I just wanted to explain how I got to where I did on my lemonade from lemons perspective for Dean.

Edited May 7, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[Idahoforspn]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

 

On top of that, wise, caring Sam needs to lecture poor dumb Dean on value of saving people. Several times over. Should we just pretend Dean never expressed these values in the first place in earlier Season? I guess so.

 

Plus we have gotten a lot of Sam eye rolls, scoffs, and acting embarrassed about and irritated with his brother.....you know...the brother who gave up his food for Sam when he was little, gave up his chance at a normal life so he could take care of  Sam, and, oh yeah, went to hell so Sam could live.  Some of this is scripted but some of it is Jared's choice in delivering lines or deciding on gestures so I don't know who to blame. IMO, Sam gives the impression that he thinks he is better than his gluttonous, dumb, horny slob of a brother even though he loves him.. I haven't seen much looking up to big brother for a long time.

Edited May 7, 2017 by Idahoforspn

[Wayward Son]

I am going to post this in here as a precaution since the events discussed often lead to "bitch vs jerk" discussions. However, while I have strong feelings on said actions, this particular post is intended to be an analysis of the themes intended by the writers rather than a discussion of which brother is in the right. Personally, I'm not the biggest fan of said themes as a I perceive them, but this makes the most sense to me.  

In several interviews Jeremy Carver makes references to a three year plan and IMO this plan involved deconstructing the Winchester co-dependence to examine the good and the ugly before ultimately concluding for all its faults it's the right thing to do. 

At the beginning of season eight we are presented with an attempt to move away from said co-dependence on Sam's part. From Sam's perspective Dean has just died and he chooses  to try and move on with his life. Ultimately, he is proven to be in the wrong as Dean was not dead but simply stuck in another dimension. He should not have given up on Dean and when Dean learns of said abandonment he is inevitably hurt and this leads to a season long conflict / tension between the brothers. This is temporarily resolved when Sam admits he considers his greatest sin letting Dean down and Dean declares there is nothing he'd put before Sam. 

Then we get to season 9 and the roles are reversed. This time it is Dean who is faced with the choice of whether to let his brother go or do something to save him! Dean chooses the latter even with the knowledge that Sam won't like the means he used to achieve said goal. The show admittedly is not shy about showing that Dean's actions have negative consequences. The most notable of which was the fact that Kevin was killed by a Gadreel possessed Sam. This is to explore the fact that there is an ugliness to the lengths they will go to save each other. Then when Sam finds out the brothers come into conflict once more. While in season 8 the conflict was about one brother failing to save the other this time it is about the methods a brother used to do said saving. Sam is shown to declare he would not have saved Dean under the same conditions. However, ultimately, it is decided that for all the ugliness involved continued co-dependence and the need to save each other at all costs  is the right thing to do. This is shown when Sam admits "I lied" and realises he would do anything to save his brother. 

Affer this we move on to season 10. This time the roles are reversed and it is once more Sam faced with the choice of whether he should save Dean or not. This time Sam who has learnt his lesson as a result of the events of seasons 8 and 9 redeems himself for his earlier failure and does all he can to save Dean. The season concludes with him doing just that. There is ugliness involved, namely the Darkness is unleashed, just like there was with Dean's decision in season 9. However, the narrative presents this as being worth it because the season ends with the brothers united. Their bond is strong and this leaves them ready to face whatever may come together. This is why  in season 11 the brothers are back to working together and with less conflict than they've had since before Dean went to purgatory. 

Edited May 7, 2017 by Wayward Son

[AwesomO4000]

7 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

 Anyway, I saw the parallels between the two sets of brothers as anvils.  I also see Dean not killing anything as long as he's been knowingly working with the BMoL as another anvil, as well as Sam killing everything while working with them as another.  I was a little shaky on it until Dean got to kill the witch in TTaTB, because that wasn't a BMoL case.  It was a personal one, but take it for what it's worth, just an opinion by one person.

No, this entirely make sense to me, and would fit with the "Sam's instincts are going to be wrong" thing I often see the show doing lately.

Dean did kill some things... but it was offscreen, so downplayed. Onscreen, it's been Sam doing the BMoL's "business*," and Dean not seeming all that gung ho about it. And I could see that potentially when Sam and Dean find out it's all going south - as we already know it is - Sam will have to reassess what he's been doing this season with the BMoL, and he'll discover the "error of his ways" concerning hunting, and he'll learn to listen to Dean more often (or not and be wrong again).

* Thinking about it, weirdly, Sam's Prince of Hell kill was sort of - odd, because thinking about it, was Ramiel even doing anything? There was talk of "virgins missing" but do we even know if that was real or something the BMoL made up? For all we know, Ramiel could potentially have been sort of a Cain-like demon who had "retired" and just lived his life fishing, but the BMoL wanted the Colt, so they sent Mary and the others off to "poke the bear" in order to get it.

Hmm. An interesting thought on all of this in that could killing all of these monsters from hunts the BMoL had sent them on could potentially be looked at as maybe fruits of the poisonous tree? Some may be legitimate, but maybe Dean is - consciously or subconsciously - holding himself back on hunts because he wonders just how legitimate these targets that the BMoL are sending them on are - unless they are something he's sure about like a ghoul (and those other things he multi-killed with the bat). Dean has generally been a see the proof for himself sort of person, and maybe he's not so comfortable with taking the BMoL's word that these are "legitimate" targets and he's sort of rebelling whether consciously or subconsciously.

[Idahoforspn]

8 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

No, this entirely make sense to me, and would fit with the "Sam's instincts are going to be wrong" thing I often see the show doing lately.

Dean did kill some things... but it was offscreen, so downplayed. Onscreen, it's been Sam doing the BMoL's "business*," and Dean not seeming all that gung ho about it. And I could see that potentially when Sam and Dean find out it's all going south - as we already know it is - Sam will have to reassess what he's been doing this season with the BMoL, and he'll discover the "error of his ways" concerning hunting, and he'll learn to listen to Dean more often (or not and be wrong again).

* Thinking about it, weirdly, Sam's Prince of Hell kill was sort of - odd, because thinking about it, was Ramiel even doing anything? There was talk of "virgins missing" but do we even know if that was real or something the BMoL made up? For all we know, Ramiel could potentially have been sort of a Cain-like demon who had "retired" and just lived his life fishing, but the BMoL wanted the Colt, so they sent Mary and the others off to "poke the bear" in order to get it.

Hmm. An interesting thought on all of this in that could killing all of these monsters from hunts the BMoL had sent them on could potentially be looked at as maybe fruits of the poisonous tree? Some may be legitimate, but maybe Dean is - consciously or subconsciously - holding himself back on hunts because he wonders just how legitimate these targets that the BMoL are sending them on are - unless they are something he's sure about like a ghoul (and those other things he multi-killed with the bat). Dean has generally been a see the proof for himself sort of person, and maybe he's not so comfortable with taking the BMoL's word that these are "legitimate" targets and he's sort of rebelling whether consciously or subconsciously.

I hadn't thought about it but I feel your right about Ramiel. Crowley said he was basically retired and living under the radar didn't he,  It could have been that the BMoLwanted the colt and that was the only reason Mary was sent after Ramiel and not for something he did. That's an interesting thought.

[Reganne]

40 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

Plus we have gotten a lot of Sam eye rolls, scoffs, and acting embarrassed about and irritated with his brother.....you know...the brother who gave up his food for Sam when he was little, gave up his chance at a normal life so he could take care of  Sam, and, oh yeah, went to hell so Sam could live.  Some of this is scripted but some of it is Jared's choice in delivering lines or deciding on gestures so I don't know who to blame. IMO, Sam gives the impression that he thinks he is better than his gluttonous, dumb, horny slob of a brother even though he loves him..

I think most of these things are brotherly things and I see Dean giving just as much as he gets.  Also Sam didn't ask to be born.  The faults of Dean taking care of Sam as a child lie in John.  I don't think it means Dean should be able to tease his brother, insult his masculinity on multiple occasions, make fun of his nerdiness and everything else without Sam giving a little brotherly teasing back.  I mean, Dean gets irritated with Sam at times as well.  

[Aeryn13]

Quote

This is why then in season 11 the brothers are back to working together and with less conflict than they've had since before Dean went to purgatory. 

I agree that Season 11 was the first one in a long time that derived the drama more from an outside threat rather than internal drama between the brothers. But that shouldn`t mean they can`t be well-written as individuals. We had simmering tension in Season 1 and still got teamwork there. So I don`t understand his "weak!Dean" crap that Dabb seems so fond of. That is not a prerequisite for the brothers getting along. 

Quote

Dean did kill some things... but it was offscreen, so downplayed. Onscreen, it's been Sam doing the BMoL's "business*," and Dean not seeming all that gung ho about it.

I believe if they wanted to show Dean somehow not really working with the BMOL and therefore holding himself back from hunts, it would have been a LOT more overt. Sam`s kills were framed as hero kills and Dean was shown in a very unflattering way - if he even found the action in the first place. And that episode with the Goat God basically twisted itself into a pretzel to make Dean a loser on the hunt.

And the kill offscreen, not only was that downplayed in terms of hunting, even that was used to make the character into a loser. The entire scene highlighted how much of a gross idiot he was, not in any way that he was a badass, not even offscreen. I hated that scene, it was so mean-spirited.     

Quote

IMO, Sam gives the impression that he thinks he is better than his gluttonous, dumb, horny slob of a brother even though he loves him

I think that is exactly what he does think. Most of those scenes just miss the lighthearted, affectionate bantery aspect for me. I`ve had this problem from Season 1 on so at this point I see it as character consistency. And really, try to ignore it as much as I can. This relationship has deteriorated so much in my eyes - it actually had some cute, endearing and heartfelt moments where I really got invested in it in Seasons 1 and 2 - that I know they`ll never able to sell me what it is they obviously want to sell me.

That is one aspect that kinda works for me when there is no internal conflict, at least then I don`t have to watch a million scenes dissecting the codependent mess this way and that way, both positive and negative and it never gets anywhere anyway. If they have an outside threat, I can pretend for the most part that they are simply ill-fitted colleagues working cases.     

[Idahoforspn]

22 minutes ago, Reganne said:

I think most of these things are brotherly things and I see Dean giving just as much as he gets.  Also Sam didn't ask to be born.  The faults of Dean taking care of Sam as a child lie in John.  I don't think it means Dean should be able to tease his brother, insult his masculinity on multiple occasions, make fun of his nerdiness and everything else without Sam giving a little brotherly teasing back.  I mean, Dean gets irritated with Sam at times as well.  

However, show also has Dean regularly talking up his brother. When was the last time show had Sam talk up how great his brother is.  Last I remember is in the hospital with the rabids when Sam says Dean deserves better. I could be wrong though.The show has a lot of talking down to Dean. Just my Imagination made me cringe. Sully saying how wonderful Sam is and Dean is a "germ" who was reconed by show as not being there for his brother. Also in the hospital with the rabids where the cured girl went on about Sam being a hero. When was the last time that word was used for just Dean and not in conjunction with the two of them. Sam shows genuine surprise when his brother says something that shows he's read something besides Busty Asian Beauties. Dean teases Sam to his face and also shows how proud he is of Sam. Sam often shows his feelings through actions which Dean doesn't see. The eye rolls when Dean isn't looking toward him for example or the look shared with the other person in the scene. I would have to re watch episodes to give you a lot of specific scenes but they are there because I notice them regularly.

3 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I agree that Season 11 was the first one in a long time that derived the drama more from an outside threat rather than internal drama between the brothers. But that shouldn`t mean they can`t be well-written as individuals. We had simmering tension in Season 1 and still got teamwork there. So I don`t understand his "weak!Dean" crap that Dabb seems so fond of. That is not a prerequisite for the brothers getting along. 

I believe if they wanted to show Dean somehow not really working with the BMOL and therefore holding himself back from hunts, it would have been a LOT more overt. Sam`s kills were framed as hero kills and Dean was shown in a very unflattering way - if he even found the action in the first place. And that episode with the Goat God basically twisted itself into a pretzel to make Dean a loser on the hunt.

And the kill offscreen, not only was that downplayed in terms of hunting, even that was used to make the character into a loser. The entire scene highlighted how much of a gross idiot he was, not in any way that he was a badass, not even offscreen. I hated that scene, it was so mean-spirited.     

I think that is exactly what he does think. Most of those scenes just miss the lighthearted, affectionate bantery aspect for me. I`ve had this problem from Season 1 on so at this point I see it as character consistency. And really, try to ignore it as much as I can. This relationship has deteriorated so much in my eyes - it actually had some cute, endearing and heartfelt moments where I really got invested in it in Seasons 1 and 2 - that I know they`ll never able to sell me what it is they obviously want to sell me.

That is one aspect that kinda works for me when there is no internal conflict, at least then I don`t have to watch a million scenes dissecting the codependent mess this way and that way, both positive and negative and it never gets anywhere anyway. If they have an outside threat, I can pretend for the most part that they are simply ill-fitted colleagues working cases.     

5 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I agree that Season 11 was the first one in a long time that derived the drama more from an outside threat rather than internal drama between the brothers. But that shouldn`t mean they can`t be well-written as individuals. We had simmering tension in Season 1 and still got teamwork there. So I don`t understand his "weak!Dean" crap that Dabb seems so fond of. That is not a prerequisite for the brothers getting along. 

I believe if they wanted to show Dean somehow not really working with the BMOL and therefore holding himself back from hunts, it would have been a LOT more overt. Sam`s kills were framed as hero kills and Dean was shown in a very unflattering way - if he even found the action in the first place. And that episode with the Goat God basically twisted itself into a pretzel to make Dean a loser on the hunt.

And the kill offscreen, not only was that downplayed in terms of hunting, even that was used to make the character into a loser. The entire scene highlighted how much of a gross idiot he was, not in any way that he was a badass, not even offscreen. I hated that scene, it was so mean-spirited.     

I think that is exactly what he does think. Most of those scenes just miss the lighthearted, affectionate bantery aspect for me. I`ve had this problem from Season 1 on so at this point I see it as character consistency. And really, try to ignore it as much as I can. This relationship has deteriorated so much in my eyes - it actually had some cute, endearing and heartfelt moments where I really got invested in it in Seasons 1 and 2 - that I know they`ll never able to sell me what it is they obviously want to sell me.

That is one aspect that kinda works for me when there is no internal conflict, at least then I don`t have to watch a million scenes dissecting the codependent mess this way and that way, both positive and negative and it never gets anywhere anyway. If they have an outside threat, I can pretend for the most part that they are simply ill-fitted colleagues working cases.     

Ditto

Edited May 7, 2017 by Idahoforspn

[Wayward Son]

16 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I agree that Season 11 was the first one in a long time that derived the drama more from an outside threat rather than internal drama between the brothers. But that shouldn`t mean they can`t be well-written as individuals. We had simmering tension in Season 1 and still got teamwork there. So I don`t understand his "weak!Dean" crap that Dabb seems so fond of. That is not a prerequisite for the brothers getting along. 

Oh I completely agree that denying Sam and Dean the right to be individuals should not be considered a requirement to them getting along. However, IMO a lot of the issues you mentioned are influenced by Dabb who I feel took over things at some point during season 11. While my post was meant to be an analysis of what Carver had in mind when he wrote several seasons of them being in conflict with one another. I think this season and last would have been very different had Carver stayed full time. Although I do think he'd have moved on from the brother angst now he'd finished exploring their co-dependency. He just may have done a better job of maintaining their individual characterisations than Dabb has :)

Edited May 7, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Reganne]

3 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

However, show also has Dean regularly talking up his brother. When was the last time show had Sam talk up how great his brother is.  Last I remember is in the hospital with the rabids when Sam says Dean deserves better. I could be wrong though.The show has a lot of talking down to Dean. Just my Imagination made me cringe. Sully saying how wonderful Sam is and Dean is a "germ" who was reconed by show as not being there for his brother. Also in the hospital with the rabids where the cured girl went on about Sam being a hero. When was the last time that word was used for just Dean and not in conjunction with the two of them. Sam shows genuine surprise when his brother says something that shows he's read something besides Busty Asian Beauties. Dean teases Sam to his face and also shows how proud he is of Sam. Sam often shows his feelings through actions which Dean doesn't see. The eye rolls when Dean isn't looking toward him for example or the look shared with the other person in the scene. I would have to re watch episodes to give you a lot of specific scenes but they are there because I notice them regularly.

The examples you give of Sam being talked up aren't from Dean though.  Heck Lisa basically told Dean he would never be happy as long as Sam was around.  Dean told Sam Benny was a better brother than he ever was. Dean seemed almost disappointed in Meat Swap when real Sam came back after spending time with Gary/Sam.  

At the end of season 10 Sam gave a whole speech about how he would never see Dean as anything but good.  In season 3, he goes on and on about how Dean saves his life over and over and doesn't Dean think he would do the same for him.  He asks Dean how he can think so little of himself.

[Idahoforspn]

10 minutes ago, Reganne said:

The examples you give of Sam being talked up aren't from Dean though.  Heck Lisa basically told Dean he would never be happy as long as Sam was around.  Dean told Sam Benny was a better brother than he ever was. Dean seemed almost disappointed in Meat Swap when real Sam came back after spending time with Gary/Sam.  

At the end of season 10 Sam gave a whole speech about how he would never see Dean as anything but good.  In season 3, he goes on and on about how Dean saves his life over and over and doesn't Dean think he would do the same for him.  He asks Dean how he can think so little of himself.

OK then what about Sams speeches in the purge and the next episode where he told Dean how selfish he was and that he didn't want to be his brother. I can find a lot more to Sam from Dean praising him than I can find of Sam praising Dean.

Edited May 7, 2017 by Idahoforspn

[Aeryn13]

Quote

At the end of season 10 Sam gave a whole speech about how he would never see Dean as anything but good. 

I thought that was painfully stupid. Because after you`ve done something like the Purge speech, you can never, ever, ever go to "I`ll never see you as anything but good". 

That would be like Dean saying "I would never sell my soul for you" to Sam. 

If you want to get a certain sentiment across during a scene, don`t write "absolute" dialogue that is already directly contradicted by previous dialogue. Because then I will not find anything in that scene believable, not even the underlying sentiment.  

[Reganne]

14 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

OK then what about Sams speeches in the purge and the next episode where he told Dean how selfish he was and that he didn't want to be his brother. I can find a lot more to Sam from Dean praising him than I can find of Sam praising Dean.

That's kind of what I was saying though.  They both do it at times to each other.  It's not just bad Sam and victim Dean.  Though I don't truly know who praises the other more, I can say Sam definitely has praised Dean a lot as well and I think it sometimes gets overlooked.

From season 8 episode 14... Trial and error.

Sam: "I am smart, and so are you. You're not a grunt, Dean. You're a genius -- when it comes to lore, to -- you're the best damn hunter I have ever seen -- better than me, better than dad. I believe in you, Dean"

I just googled and found this.  I knew it existed somewhere, as I do remember it.  I just had to find it.  That is a pretty damn big compliment coming from Sam.

13 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I thought that was painfully stupid. Because after you`ve done something like the Purge speech, you can never, ever, ever go to "I`ll never see you as anything but good". 

That would be like Dean saying "I would never sell my soul for you" to Sam. 

If you want to get a certain sentiment across during a scene, don`t write "absolute" dialogue that is already directly contradicted by previous dialogue. Because then I will not find anything in that scene believable, not even the underlying sentiment.  

As with the situation with Benny.  At one point Dean threw it in Sam's face and said how Benny was a better brother to him than Sam ever was.  Only to later have that speech revoked as he was willing to kill Benny for Sam.

Edited May 7, 2017 by Reganne

[Aeryn13]

Quote

At one point Dean threw it in Sam's face and said how Benny was a better brother to him than Sam ever was.  Only to later have that speech revoked as he was willing to kill Benny for Sam.

But he didn`t literally say "I would never kill Benny to save you" and then turn around a couple of episodes later and do it. Saying Benny had been a better brother to him than Sam and still asking for Benny`s head to save Sam or not that mutually exclusive.

Sam specifically said Dean (or anyone?) would never hear him, Sam, say that Dean was anything but good. When Dean and the entire viewing audience had already heard him say it. That is specific dialogue that was already proven false.  

Quote

Sam: "I am smart, and so are you. You're not a grunt, Dean. You're a genius -- when it comes to lore, to -- you're the best damn hunter I have ever seen -- better than me, better than dad. I believe in you, Dean"

If only that speech hadn`t come on the heels of yanking a possible mytharc away from Dean by showing that he wasn`t that good of a hunter (he certainly couldn`t manage to kill the hellhound), then proceeding to show the next couple episodes that he really wasn`t that good of a hunter and knew nothing about lore and that Sam changed his outlook on things pretty quickly once he had gotten the trials. 

In context that speech felt more like a gift-wrapped piece of turd. I may look nice on the outside but once you open it, you get a nasty surprise.

But it was Thompson. And Thompson made it pretty clear in the highschool musical ep how he viewed the characters. The Sam-fan waxed poetic about brave, sweet, selfless Sam, there is nothing he can`t do and the Dean-girl (in a deleted scene) just says she likes Dean because he is hot. So according to Thompson, Sam is admirable because the contents of his heroic character while Dean can be only liked for shallow reasons aka his looks. Because that is not one-sided at all.  

I`ll never forgive Kripke for 5.22 and he certainly couldn`t ever let go of his Sam-avatar but at least I do think he viewed Dean, the individual, as a hero. And not just Dean the brother, the hanger-on, the sidekick or the comic relief. Apparently that is just too much to ask from any possible showrunner since.  

[Reganne]

12 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

But he didn`t literally say "I would never kill Benny to save you" and then turn around a couple of episodes later and do it. Saying Benny had been a better brother to him than Sam and still asking for Benny`s head to save Sam or not that mutually exclusive.

Sam specifically said Dean (or anyone?) would never hear him, Sam, say that Dean was anything but good. When Dean and the entire viewing audience had already heard him say it. That is specific dialogue that was already proven false.  

In the Purge Sam claimed that Dean thought he was doing the right thing, but was actually doing more bad than good.  He also accused him of being selfish.  However, that doesn't necessarily mean he isn't a good person.  A good person doesn't have to have all perfectly good traits.  Some good people are selfish at times.  Sometimes good people mean well but they also make mistakes.  If he had of said "You're a bad person", I would agree with you that the audience has heard it before.  It would come across as a contradictory statement. However, I would also bring up the fact that Sam told Dean he lied during that speech later on in the season.

As for Benny.  If he truly were the better brother for Dean and Dean truly thought Benny were the better brother, he wouldn't have killed him for Sam.  I think sometimes the characters say things they don't necessarily mean.  

[Idahoforspn]

29 minutes ago, Reganne said:

 

As with the situation with Benny.  At one point Dean threw it in Sam's face and said how Benny was a better brother to him than Sam ever was.  Only to later have that speech revoked as he was willing to kill Benny for Sam.

If you can count what Dean said under the influence of a supernatural entity I can do the same. In the asylum, Sam told Dean how pathetic he was and that he was a mindless tool for his father in a pretty vicious outburst..Sam then goes on about how he (Sam) could think for himself. 

I can find a lot more of Sam ripping apart Dean pretty viciously than I can find of Dean doing the same. As far as trial and error, ditto to what AERYN13 says above.

[Idahoforspn]

3 minutes ago, Reganne said:

In the Purge Sam claimed that Dean thought he was doing the right thing, but was actually doing more bad than good.  He also accused him of being selfish.  However, that doesn't necessarily mean he isn't a good person.  A good person doesn't have to have all perfectly good traits.  Some good people are selfish at times.  Sometimes good people mean well but they also make mistakes.  If he had of said "You're a bad person", I would agree with you that the audience has heard it before.  It would come across as a contradictory statement. However, I would also bring up the fact that Sam told Dean he lied during that speech later on in the season.

As for Benny.  If he truly were the better brother for Dean and Dean truly thought Benny were the better brother, he wouldn't have killed him for Sam.  I think sometimes the characters say things they don't necessarily mean.  

Dean didn't think he was really killing Benny at the time. He thought Benny would hitch a ride back with Sam. It was only after that didn't happen that Dean said he had ended up killing Benny for Sam.

[FlickChick]

Actually, regarding Benny, didn't Dean tell Sam (under supernatural influence) that Benny was the one person who never let him down? I can't believe there's a poster in this forum who would deny the truth of that statement. I mean, even in the trials finale, Sam asks Dean who he's going to turn to the next time he lets Dean down, another angel?, another vampire? So Sam knows the truth of that statement from Dean.

[Reganne]

5 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

If you can count what Dean said under the influence of a supernatural entity I can do the same. In the asylum, Sam told Dean how pathetic he was and that he was a mindless tool for his father in a pretty vicious outburst..Sam then goes on about how he (Sam) could think for himself. 

I can find a lot more of Sam ripping apart Dean pretty viciously than I can find of Dean doing the same. As far as trial and error, ditto to what AERYN13 says above.

That wasn't when Dean was under the influence of a supernatural entity.  Benny was season 8.  Dean didn't get the MOC until season 9

 

2 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

Dean didn't think he was really killing Benny at the time. He thought Benny would hitch a ride back with Sam. It was only after that didn't happen that Dean said he had ended up killing Benny for Sam.

Yes and he had no regrets of it either.

[FlickChick]

1 minute ago, Reganne said:

That wasn't when Dean was under the influence of a supernatural entity.  Benny was season 8.  Dean didn't get the MOC until season 9

 

Yes and he had no regrets of it either.

No, it was when Dean picked up the coin that was turning people's anger into killing that he said that to Sam. In S8.

Edited May 7, 2017 by FlickChick

[Idahoforspn]

Just now, Reganne said:

That wasn't when Dean was under the influence of a supernatural entity.  Benny was season 8.  Dean didn't get the MOC until season 9

 

Yes and he had no regrets of it either.

I seem to remember Dean said Benny was a better brother when he was under the influence of the cursed coin.

Just now, Reganne said:

That wasn't when Dean was under the influence of a supernatural entity.  Benny was season 8.  Dean didn't get the MOC until season 9

 

Yes and he had no regrets of it either.

Dean harbored major guilt for killing Benny so I don't think you can say he had no regrets. Show has not shown us what Dean would have done if he didn't think Benny could have come back with Sam. Also they told us Dean buried Benny instead of burning him.

[CluelessDrifter]

6 minutes ago, Reganne said:

That wasn't when Dean was under the influence of a supernatural entity.  Benny was season 8.  Dean didn't get the MOC until season 9

 

Yes and he had no regrets of it either.

Sorry to nit pick, but Dean was under the influence of that penny in Southern Comfort when he said it.

[Wayward Son]

27 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Actually, regarding Benny, didn't Dean tell Sam (under supernatural influence) that Benny was the one person who never let him down? I can't believe there's a poster in this forum who would deny the truth of that statement. I mean, even in the trials finale, Sam asks Dean who he's going to turn to the next time he lets Dean down, another angel?, another vampire? So Sam knows the truth of that statement from Dean.

One of my complaints, as someone who wasn't the biggest fan of Benny throughout season, 8 is this. With the exception of allowing Dean to kill him so Sam could be saved (which happened after Dean's speech about Benny not letting him down); what exactly has Benny done to help Dean that didn't also serve to help Benny? The biggest thing Benny did for Dean IMO was get him out of purgatory, but that also served  to get Benny out of purgatory. It wasn't an entirely selfless act. So IMO Benny hadn't had a chance to let Dean down yet. He'd known him give or take a year. Sam has known Dean his whole life. When Benny has known Dean for thirty odd years and never let him down then Dean can talk about a comparison between Benny and Sam being fair IMO.

Edited May 7, 2017 by Wayward Son