“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[Idahoforspn]

9 minutes ago, Diane said:

 

Exactly.

I have always said that even when Sam is the focus, he isn't always presented as sympathetic. Part of the time it's the writing and some of the time it is how Jared chooses to say the lines. Being the favorite of the showrunners isn't necessarily a good thing with SPN.

[Diane]

Just now, Idahoforspn said:

I have always said that even when Sam is the focus, he isn't always presented as sympathetic. Part of the time it's the writing and some of the time it is how Jared chooses to say the lines. Being the favorite of the showrunners isn't necessarily a good thing with SPN.

I agree with that too.  The whole Ruby thing is a very good example of it.  I was in no way sympathetic to his disastrous choices.  Season 3 maybe, he was trying to save his brother, season 4 no.

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, Diane said:

Last season was almost all Dean.

Sam had the Lucifer/visions arc that dominated the first half.  The Amara storyline, was mostly back burned and barely touched upon.  MMV.

[CluelessDrifter]

9 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

That is highly debatable. Not everyone considers "Character X is supernaturally affected by something" to be the primary criteria for being a focal point. 

To me, Sam is the focal character, and Dean is the protagonist throughout much of supernatural.  When they're not the same character in a story, the focal character is the exciting part of the story, the character that the stories revolve around - happen to or driven by their actions, and the protagonist is the character who gets the POV, the one we're supposed to sympathize with more.  With this show, they've taken it a step further to keep it balanced.  The brother who is not acting as the focal point, typically gets to kill more of the bad guys and get the POV . . . until this year.  Neither brother is playing either role.  There isn't much POV coming from either of them, and neither is the focal point.

If you want to know why people in this fandom feel like they're sometimes watching a different show than you, it's probably because a portion of the people watching side with the focal character, an equal portion sides with the protagonist, and another portion sees the focal character and protagonist as equals and get annoyed with the rest of us for not being able to see it.  

[Diane]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Sam had the Lucifer/visions arc that dominated the first half.  The Amara storyline, was mostly back burned and barely touched upon.  MMV.

I disagree, they were both important in the first half, also Baby, Our Little World and O Brother Where Art Thou were in the first half and they where Dean centric.  I am about to leave work and I don't have time to look up more episodes to double check.  YMMV

[CluelessDrifter]

10 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

 

Edited May 4, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[Idahoforspn]

18 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Sam had the Lucifer/visions arc that dominated the first half.  The Amara storyline, was mostly back burned and barely touched upon.  MMV.

True! I was really disappointed that the show seemed to have no clue what to do with Dean's storyline. Jensen even commented on the writers not being able to give him any idea what they were trying to do. Saying they back burnered it is being generous.

Edited May 4, 2017 by Idahoforspn

[CluelessDrifter]

40 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

That is highly debatable. Not everyone considers "Character X is supernaturally affected by something" to be the primary criteria for being a focal point. 

To me, Sam is the focal character, and Dean is the protagonist throughout much of supernatural.  When they're not the same character in a story, the focal character is the exciting part of the story, the character that the stories revolve around - things happen to them or their actions drive the stories, and the protagonist is the character who gets the POV, the one we're supposed to sympathize with more.  With this show, they've taken it a step further to keep it balanced.  The brother who is not acting as the focal point, typically gets to kill more of the bad guys and get the POV . . . until this year.  Neither brother is playing either role.  There isn't much POV coming from either of them, and neither is the focal point.

If you want to know why it feels like some people in this fandom are watching a different show than you, it's probably because a portion of the people watching side with the focal character, an equal portion sides with the protagonist, and another portion sees the focal character and protagonist as equals and get annoyed with the rest of us for not being able to see it.  

Edited May 4, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Last season was almost all Dean.

Sam had the mytharc in Season 2 but not all episodes were about him. Dean had the mytharc in Season 10 but equally not all episodes were about him. A true character-centric ep for a character is maybe once or twice a Season.

[Idahoforspn]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Maybe another one will come along in a  couple of hours with just Dean

And we have our new one and it features......MARY.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

30 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

Being the favorite of the showrunners isn't necessarily a good thing with SPN.

I think some fans mistake 'being the favorite' (which IMO, there hasn't been a favorite of the showrunner since S2) with whatever the story/character arc happens to be.  It doesn't necessarily mean that either is the favorite just because they got the 'emotional' arc and the other got the 'action' arc.  

30 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Sam had the Lucifer/visions arc that dominated the first half.  The Amara storyline, was mostly back burned and barely touched upon.  MMV.

I think 'dominated' is an exaggeration.

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

And we have our new one and it features......MARY.

LOL, we have 2 1/2  more hours ET. Maybe Dean will be next??

[Idahoforspn]

4 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I think some fans mistake 'being the favorite' (which IMO, there hasn't been a favorite of the showrunner since S2) with whatever the story/character arc happens to be.  It doesn't necessarily mean that either is the favorite just because they got the 'emotional' arc and the other got the 'action' arc.  

I think 'dominated' is an exaggeration.

When, no matter who has the action arc, all the show runners can talk about is Sam even when asked about Dean it shows who they are most interested in.

[Katy M]

48 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Dean came across as weak and pathetic in RM, no matter the amount of screentime. Meanwhile, Sam jumped up from his deathbed, killed werewolves and even saved the super-pathetic Dean. Yikes.

Weak and pathetic?  I don't think so.  Yes, he was mourning.  But, he still led the couple to safety.  Attempted to do something stupid to bring Sam back to life (which whatever else you have to say is totally in character since day 1), and then fought back to live when Billie told him Sam wasn't dead.  Sam mostly just made his way to the basement and laid in wait until he could ambush.  It's not like he actually fought them.

 

53 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I can`t remember if Dean got a Dean-centric ep last Season. This Season it was Regarding Dean.

 Baby and The Vessel.

[catrox14]

In Red Meat, Sam was shot in the gut in the teaser after killing one werewolf but he survives long enough to help Dean with The Lying Werewolf and his wife, then had to retire from the fight to rest. Whilst Dean is out building a litter to carry him, Sam is asphyxiated by Lying Werewolf.  Dean comes back to an apparently dead Sam, and Dean is grief stricken and opts for suicide by werewolf but is talked out of it by Lying Werewolf to help them get to safety.  For his efforts, Dean ends up in the hospital after being tasered by the sheriff he punched because said sheriff interfered with Dean getting back to Sam. At the hospital, Dean believes Sam is dead, but after some kind words from Lying Werewolf's wife, Dean decides to purposefully OD on a drug cocktail so he can ask Billie to save Sam. She says no so he offers himself for Sam because Sam has to live to fight Amara because Dean no longer thinks he can because Amara is controlling him.

At the same time, Sam has awakened from near asphyxiation, is still suffering from the gunshot wound to his gut, but still fights off and kills two more werewolves, walks a mile to Dean's car,  drives himself to the hospital in time to shoot the werewolf in the back, who was just about to kill Dean who survived the intentional OD.

On balance it was kind of even as far as screen time but IMO the sheer absurdity of Sam surviving all that is why IMO that episode stands out as being much more Sam affirming than Dean, IMO. YMMV.

[FlickChick]

10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

In Red Meat, Sam was shot in the gut in the teaser after killing one werewolf but he survives long enough to help Dean with The Lying Werewolf and his wife, then had to retire from the fight to rest. Whilst Dean is out building a litter to carry him, Sam is asphyxiated by Lying Werewolf.  Dean comes back to an apparently dead Sam, and Dean is grief stricken and opts for suicide by werewolf but is talked out of it by Lying Werewolf to help them get to safety.  For his efforts, Dean ends up in the hospital after being tasered by the sheriff he punched because said sheriff interfered with Dean getting back to Sam. At the hospital, Dean believes Sam is dead, but after some kind words from Lying Werewolf's wife, Dean decides to purposefully OD on a drug cocktail so he can ask Billie to save Sam. She says no so he offers himself for Sam because Sam has to live to fight Amara because Dean no longer thinks he can because Amara is controlling him.

At the same time, Sam has awakened from near asphyxiation, is still suffering from the gunshot wound to his gut, but still fights off and kills two more werewolves, walks a mile to Dean's car,  drives himself to the hospital in time to shoot the werewolf in the back, who was just about to kill Dean who survived the intentional OD.

On balance it was kind of even as far as screen time but IMO the sheer absurdity of Sam surviving all that is why IMO that episode stands out as being much more Sam affirming than Dean, IMO. YMMV.

LOL! All that I could think of while reading that summation was that it was a soap opera episode that stretches the viewers' belief that Sam could really do all of those things.

[Idahoforspn]

13 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Weak and pathetic?  I don't think so.  Yes, he was mourning.  But, he still led the couple to safety.  Attempted to do something stupid to bring Sam back to life (which whatever else you have to say is totally in character since day 1), and then fought back to live when Billie told him Sam wasn't dead.  Sam mostly just made his way to the basement and laid in wait until he could ambush.  It's not like he actually fought them.

 

 Baby and The Vessel.

Really it was just Baby. The star of The Vessel was the girl. Dean by his own admission was an observer that episode. Casifer and Sam had as much going on in that episode as Dean did.

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

LOL! All that I could think of while reading that summation was that it was a soap opera episode that stretches the viewers' belief that Sam could really do all of those things.

LOL, I mean yes, these guys survive some pretty absurd things like both being Hell but they were taken out and saved by an angel. But this...I mean, COME ON!

And yes I would be saying the same thing if that had been Dean in Sam's position. It was absurd to the extreme IMO.

Edited May 4, 2017 by catrox14

[ILoveReading]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

In Red Meat, Sam was shot in the gut in the teaser after killing one werewolf but he survives long enough to help Dean with The Lying Werewolf and his wife, then had to retire from the fight to rest. Whilst Dean is out building a litter to carry him, Sam is asphyxiated by Lying Werewolf.  Dean comes back to an apparently dead Sam, and Dean is grief stricken and opts for suicide by werewolf but is talked out of it by Lying Werewolf to help them get to safety.  For his efforts, Dean ends up in the hospital after being tasered by the sheriff he punched because said sheriff interfered with Dean getting back to Sam. At the hospital, Dean believes Sam is dead, but after some kind words from Lying Werewolf's wife, Dean decides to purposefully OD on a drug cocktail so he can ask Billie to save Sam. She says no so he offers himself for Sam because Sam has to live to fight Amara because Dean no longer thinks he can because Amara is controlling him.

Yup, and then for good measure they had to make Sam fall down the stairs, get up and take out another werewolf before he finds the care.  It was too over the top, and yes.

It was also another reason why I feel like Dabb had no interest in the Amara story, because in the premier Amara tells Dean that no matter wherever they are they will never let anyone harm each other.  If that was true Dean should never have gotten as far as he did.  IMO, Amara should have shown up instead of Billie and agreed to bring Sam back.  Then Dean would have owed her a favor.  

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Yup, and then for good measure they had to make Sam fall down the stairs, get up and take out another werewolf before he finds the care.  It was too over the top, and yes.

LOL oh gods I totally forgot about him falling down the stairs. That makes it even worse! LOL

[MysteryGuest]

While I agree that Dean seems to be missing from a bit of the action this season, I think it's more a reflection on the writing than on any deliberate attempt to eliminate him from the storyline by TPTB.  The show has always gone back and forth between the brothers, and even when the main story arc pertained to one brother, the writers managed to give both characters interesting things to do, whether by action or dialogue.  But it takes quality writers to be able to do that, and I think this is one specific area where the inexperience of the new writers is showing through.  It's one thing to take on one or two new writers, but this show has taken on quite a few new, and lost some of it's best, and we're seeing the evidence of that, IMO.

[Idahoforspn]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Maybe another one will come along in a  couple of hours with just Dean?

 

And we have another one. Yeah! Dean is in it....BEHIND Sam.

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

While I agree that Dean seems to be missing from a bit of the action this season, I think it's more a reflection on the writing than on any deliberate attempt to eliminate him from the storyline by TPTB.  The show has always gone back and forth between the brothers, and even when the main story arc pertained to one brother, the writers managed to give both characters interesting things to do, whether by action or dialogue.  But it takes quality writers to be able to do that, and I think this is one specific area where the inexperience of the new writers is showing through.  It's one thing to take on one or two new writers, but this show has taken on quite a few new, and lost some of it's best, and we're seeing the evidence of that, IMO.

I think I would be more forgiving if it was a newbie showrunner who didn't have the history with the show as does Dabb. Like Carver left for like 3 years and returned in s8, so I can understand why he sort of did something a little different. But Dabb has a long history with the show  and Singer has been there from the jump.

[ILoveReading]

Another Sam only promo

Edited May 5, 2017 by ILoveReading

[Idahoforspn]

44 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

And we have another one. Yeah! Dean is in it....BEHIND Sam.

And another one that features....wait for it.....Sam.

Don't try and tell me they give a dang about Dean.

Just now, ILoveReading said:

Another Sam only promo

Yup. Dean who?

[gonzosgirrl]

Sigh. Another episode, another iconic Dean moment handed over to Sam. I'll unspoiler later.

Spoiler

"Dad's on a hunting trip and he hasn't been home in a few days." Turned around for Sam tonight. 

I swear it's personal.

[catrox14]

Just now, gonzosgirrl said:

Sigh. Another episode, another iconic Dean moment handed over to Sam. I'll unspoiler later.

  Reveal hidden contents

"Dad's on a hunting trip and he hasn't been home in a few days." Turned around for Sam tonight. 

I swear it's personal.

That really fucking pissed me off.  A LOT.

[Idahoforspn]

7 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Sigh. Another episode, another iconic Dean moment handed over to Sam. I'll unspoiler later.

  Reveal hidden contents

"Dad's on a hunting trip and he hasn't been home in a few days." Turned around for Sam tonight. 

I swear it's personal.

Yeah. But Dean wasn't entirely useless this time. It was an improvement. I'm at the point I'll take what I can get.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Idahoforspn

[gonzosgirrl]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That really fucking pissed me off.  A LOT.

I'm convinced now that Mary will die for Sam, since John died for Dean. Hell at this point I won't be surprised if Sam runs off with Lisa.

[ILoveReading]

It also pissed me off with Dean getting another lecture about accepting that parents are people too. 

Dean's mom died when he was four.  His father treated him like a solider and then his mother comes back and rejects him.  Dean wants to connect with Mary.

But nope that's wrong.  Bad Dean for expecting her to be a mom. 

Ironic since Mary has suddenly decided that after 19 episodes that she suddenly wants to be one.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'm convinced now that Mary will die for Sam, since John died for Dean. Hell at this point I won't be surprised if Sam runs off with Lisa.

LOOOL that made me laugh, a lot

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

It also pissed me off with Dean getting another lecture about accepting that parents are people too. 

Dean's mom died when he was four.  His father treated him like a solider and then his mother comes back and rejects him.  Dean wants to connect with Mary.

But nope that's wrong.  Bad Dean for expecting her to be a mom. 

Ironic since Mary has suddenly decided that after 19 episodes that she suddenly wants to be one.

I really wanted Dean to just hang up and roll his eyes at her BS.

[ILoveReading]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'm convinced now that Mary will die for Sam, since John died for Dean. Hell at this point I won't be surprised if Sam runs off with Lisa.

I'm sure Sam will use the grenade launcher to blow up the BMoLs headquarters.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

I'm sure Sam will use the grenade launcher to blow up the BMoLs headquarters.

OMFG, *I* will find me a grenade launcher (and a ticket to Los Angeles) if Sam uses that thing, ever.

[ILoveReading]

22 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

Yeah. But Dean wasn't entirely useless this time. It was an improvement. I'm at the point I'll take what I can get.

Kind of shows how bad the writing has gotten when the best thing you can say about Dean is that he wasn't totally useless.

[Idahoforspn]

19 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Kind of shows how bad the writing has gotten when the best thing you can say about Dean is that he wasn't totally useless.

Yeah. I don't expect much for Dean next few weeks. Dabb says the boys will be Generals. What do you want to bet Sam is the General and Dean is Sgt. Schultz.

[AwesomO4000]

14 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Maybe he doesn`t consider pure emo stuff on the side a story? Because if so, I`m 100 % in agreement. "Dealing with loss" is a "story" I accept on a soap. They can get away with calling this a plot, even though they also do real plotlines. Any other show, those are disqualified for me.

As I said, that was half the story - and it supported the other half - which was Dean's revenge arc. There were even supporting characters who were only or mostly associated with Dean to support that revenge arc. And in season 7, Sam's entire story was emo - basically him talking to himself and going crazy for most of the season. And I loved it, because I thought it delved a lot into Sam's character.

10 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Season 9 only starts with First Born, of course, so half the Season, yes, that goes to Dean. Season 10, yes again, that goes to Dean in terms of story and badassery. But I still don`t remember Dean suddenly accumulating all of Sam`s skills during it. Sam didn`t suddenly stop researching so Dean could do it all. Sam didn`t stop getting smart-moments so Dean could get them all. In short, Dean got something nice in Season 10 but he still didn`t play both his AND Sam`s part.

Right now Sam fills both Sam and Dean`s role and Dean is noone. That has IMO never before happened on the show, not for either brother.

I actually disagree with this. Sure, in the first half of the season there was Gadreel, but even though that affected Sam directly, it was more a vehicle for the second half of the season, because the focus was on Dean's decision and the emotional tole Gadreel's tactics and deception took on Dean.* And though that was emotional, yes, it was the journey that lead to Dean making the decision to take on the mark. Many of the episodes in the first half were Dean-centric. Some had direct links to things that would happen in the second half - such as "Devil May Care" establishing the connection between Dean and Abaddon, and "Holy Terror" where Kevin is killed, setting up Dean's guilt. Others featured Dean's past or featured Dean's interaction with the person of the week - "Dog Dean Afternoon," "Bad Boys," and "Rock and a Hard Place." I think another featured Dean / Castiel interaction and set up more guilt and Dean's isolation from Cas leading to Dean being influenced by Crowley and taking on the MoC. Even the one Sam-centric episode, "I think I'm Gonna Like It Here," served as more of a vehicle to Dean's arc... and was fairly unflattering to Sam to boot.

And I would actually argue that Sam was fairly useless in that first half of the season. He usually ended up being incompetent, somehow getting himself hurt, knocked out, possessed, etc. and Gadreel generally had to take over and save him. In the second half of the season, I think Sam had 2 kills***, was generally saved by the person of the week or guest star or Dean and spent one episode of action wandering around in the basement and a second knocked out.

So I would argue that most of season 9 was Sam's time to be useless / background. Except for arguably episode 1 - which was unflattering - Sam didn't even have a Sam-centric episode that season

* Some of Sam's feelings on the subject were explored for a little bit, but they were in the end, marginalized  and used for plot purpose rather than explored in any depth.

*** One of those was just a distraction / trap to get him tied to a chair though.

10 hours ago, CluelessDrifter said:

They can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what they are saying is that Soulless Sam was the focal point, and Dean reacted to it/tried to fix it in much the same way Dean with the MoC in Season 10 was the focal point, and Sam reacted to it.  Those were their respective story lines, and when one is the focal point, the other generally gets more kills or excels in some other way in order to balance it. (1) The reason people are focusing on the back half of season 9 and season 10 is because for seasons 1-2, 4-9 1/2, the focal point was Sam.  Season 9 1/2-10 was focused on Dean.  Season 3 - I'd actually say that getting Dean out of his deal was the focal point for that season. (2)

1. This wasn't true for the first half of season 8 or most of season 9 for Sam though. Season 10 is debatable since Sam wasn't shown to be very competent at anything in that season, and his arc was mostly emotional - when he wasn't being manipulated or screwing up. Despite that I liked season 10, since at least Sam wasn't acting like a complete jerk, being useless, or both like he was in seasons 8 and 9. It's a sad commentary when the best that you can hope for with a character is that he completely screwed up, but at least he wasn't a complete asshole.
2. I disagree that season 6 was Sam-centric. Except for the one flashback episode, the second half of the season was more about Dean if any of the brothers. And I would argue that season 7 was also fairly equal. Sam with the hallucinations and Dean with his revenge arc. And 8 was also fairly equal, but split - first half more Dean (I consider Amelia a soap opera plot, not a supernatural one), second half Sam. For me even season 2 is debatable to an extent, because even though, yes, Sam had the supernatural arc, the seeds were planted early one for Dean's deal - for better or for worse - and Dean was the one to actually conclude the arc in season 2 when he killed YED, and even though the John stuff was arguably "emotional," I think it did have an effect on Dean being affected in "Crossroad Blues" and the seeds for the deal being planted. I think even "What Is..." somewhat foreshadowed that arc. And I'd say that season 3 was more Dean-centric. Sam was mainly spinning his wheels, and the "Boy King" stuff was nothing but a red herring. And season 4 was definitely both Sam and Dean. Just because things didn't work out exactly evenly in season 5, doesn't negate season 4 being both brother focused.

All that said, weirdly my enjoyment of a season has less to do with who is the focal point and more to do with are the characters behaving like themselves and/or having a good character arc. For example season 4 was fairly  equal focus-wise, but it was much too grim and I thought the character focuses were off and/or under explored. Whereas despite season 10 ending up fairly badly for Sam and being more Dean-centric, I liked Sam's characterization and many of the MotW episodes, so I liked season 10 more than season 4.

Edited May 5, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[mertensia]

6 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

It also pissed me off with Dean getting another lecture about accepting that parents are people too. 

Dean's mom died when he was four.  His father treated him like a solider and then his mother comes back and rejects him.  Dean wants to connect with Mary.

But nope that's wrong.  Bad Dean for expecting her to be a mom. 

Since Tasha had no clue Mary died when Dean was 4 it's a bit much for any reasonable viewer to think she was lecturing him instead of trying to do some bonding with him. 

[CluelessDrifter]

5 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

 

1. This wasn't true for the first half of season 8 or most of season 9 for Sam though. Season 10 is debatable since Sam wasn't shown to be very competent at anything in that season, and his arc was mostly emotional - when he wasn't being manipulated or screwing up. Despite that I liked season 10, since at least Sam wasn't acting like a complete jerk, being useless, or both like he was in seasons 8 and 9. It's a sad commentary when the best that you can hope for with a character is that he completely screwed up, but at least he wasn't a complete asshole.
2. I disagree that season 6 was Sam-centric. Except for the one flashback episode, the second half of the season was more about Dean if any of the brothers. And I would argue that season 7 was also fairly equal. Sam with the hallucinations and Dean with his revenge arc. And 8 was also fairly equal, but split - first half more Dean (I consider Amelia a soap opera plot, not a supernatural one), second half Sam. For me even season 2 is debatable to an extent, because even though, yes, Sam had the supernatural arc, the seeds were planted early one for Dean's deal - for better or for worse - and Dean was the one to actually conclude the arc in season 2 when he killed YED, and even though the John stuff was arguably "emotional," I think it did have an effect on Dean being affected in "Crossroad Blues" and the seeds for the deal being planted. I think even "What Is..." somewhat foreshadowed that arc. And I'd say that season 3 was more Dean-centric. Sam was mainly spinning his wheels, and the "Boy King" stuff was nothing but a red herring. And season 4 was definitely both Sam and Dean. Just because things didn't work out exactly evenly in season 5, doesn't negate season 4 being both brother focused.

1.   For me, the first half of season 8 was the set up for why Sam took on the trials.  Dean came back.  Sam was not happy about it at first, possibly because of the guilt he felt at having given up on Dean and Kevin.  He lashed out at Benny and had Dean flat out telling him that Benny was a better brother to him than Sam had ever been (and yes, I count this as what Dean really thought, because I count what Sam said to Dean in season 4 when under the siren's spell as Sam's real thoughts on Dean post-Hell).  Sam was pushing the story forward.  Maybe, depending on how you see it, the first half of season 9 could be seen as leading up to Dean taking the MoC, but it was a major tonal shift in the way the show often does things, because the first half appeared to be about Sam being possessed by Gadreel, and Sam is so often who the storyline is happening to or being pushed by that it is a difficult transition to properly label.  It could also be seen as Sam being possessed by Gadreel pushing the story forward, and Dean reacting to it throughout, which culminated in him taking the Mark, and that's when the shift of Dean going from being the protagonist to the focal character happened, while Sam went from being the focal character to the protagonist, except it wasn't a flawless transition.  Sam spent much of the back half of season nine, not noticing or caring that anything was wrong with Dean until Dean attacked Gadreel, and if Sam is the protagonist, we're supposed to be seeing Dean's transformation through Sam's eyes and sympathizing with him more.  

2.  I like season 6 for the most part, but it was a mess.  If you squint and look really hard, you can see their arcs.  The first half of season 6 Sam was soulless, and that's what lead them into working with the Campbells and then Crowley to find Alphas.  The second half was about fixing the things Sam did while he was soulless.  For instance, Like A Virgin introduced a consequence of one of the things done while Sam was soulless, Eve coming topside because of all the Alphas being tortured and killed - something Cas, Crowley, Samuel, and Soulless Sam spent a good deal of time doing in the year Dean was out (Dean came in at the tail end of it).  Unforgiven was more of an obvious episode about making right something Sam did wrong while soulless.  The underlying concern throughout the back-half was whether or not Sam's wall would break causing him to remember his time in the cage - all things tied to what he did while soulless and where his soul had been.  Cas's arc really picked up in the second half of the season too.  Dean reacted to both Sam and Cas's arcs, but Sam and Cas were the center of those arcs, and Dean revolved around them . . . All the worrying about whether or not Sam would remember his hell pain came to fruition and was an arc that was completed in the back half of season 7 and converged with the start of Cas's redemption arc - or that's the way I see it.

Edited May 5, 2017 by CluelessDrifter

[ILoveReading]

2 hours ago, mertensia said:

Since Tasha had no clue Mary died when Dean was 4 it's a bit much for any reasonable viewer to think she was lecturing him instead of trying to do some bonding with him. 

But the writer knew.  Dean had that lesson when he was four.  He could have used different words.  The whole thing sounded like 'cut your mom some slack.'  Which Dean has been doing all season.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Yeah. I don't expect much for Dean next few weeks. Dabb says the boys will be Generals. What do you want to bet Sam is the General and Dean is Sgt. Schultz.

I expected this from the moment I read Dabb`s interview. And if you listen to the new promo, who delivers the voice-over and who says nothing, yup, this is the vibe I`m getting. Because being inspirational to others and leadership skills have never really been areas Dean shines in. *sarcasm*

[mertensia]

32 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

But the writer knew.  Dean had that lesson when he was four.  He could have used different words.  The whole thing sounded like 'cut your mom some slack.'  Which Dean has been doing all season.

Personally I don't think the writer should be all "well, I know so the character should". She's met Mary. She's trying to form a tentative bond or friendship. So what innocuous thing can she talk about? Parenting.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

21 hours ago, catrox14 said:

In Red Meat,

20 hours ago, catrox14 said:

LOL, I mean yes, these guys survive some pretty absurd things like both being Hell but they were taken out and saved by an angel. But this...I mean, COME ON!

And yes I would be saying the same thing if that had been Dean in Sam's position. It was absurd to the extreme IMO.

Geez, I'm so sick of Red Meat being brought up as Sam-favorable (which it was - not arguing that point) when there have been episodes in which Dean has been depicted just as freaking awesome:

In Appointment in Samarra, Dean was dead for SEVEN minutes.  You know who survives that?  And comes back okay?  Pretty much no one.  

In Live Free or Twihard, Dean was able to resist the pull of vampire blood lust and then take out an entire freaking vampire's nest with orders from the Alpha to kill him - oh, which included a 600 year old vampire.  (Yeah, cause they don't get stronger having been alive that long or anything, right?)

Oh, and let's talk about Regarding Dean, shall we?  Let's see: Dean was hit by a witch's curse which made him start forgetting things.  Roweena said eventually, he'd forget how to breath.  So there's Dean: can't remember his own name or who he is, but yet when he wakes up in a car outside the witch's manse, somehow knows enough to go to the trunk, pick the right bullets/weapon, and gets to kill the bad witches, who even Roweena (who according to Crowley is a very powerful witch) couldn't take out and of course had Sam tied to a chair.   Give me a freaking break.  If Red Meat was absurd to the extreme for Sam, Regarding Dean is absurd to the extreme for Dean.  

[Aeryn13]

I wish we had seen more of Dean in that nest. The camera cutting away and then only coming back to the scene when it was pretty much finished was so disappointing. I get that this show isn`t as action/stunt-heavy as the ones in the Berlanti-verse but I could do with a bit more.

And one of my fondest wishes was always a Sateda-like episode with Dean. A cookie for anyone who gets the reference. Badass beginning that ends in teamwork without taking away the badassery. 

[Idahoforspn]

Quote

 Why would you think that? It's just that we've had scenes of Dean and Mary calling or texting.  Her calling Sam would be different. If you want Dean to get a kill, does that mean Sam shouldn't be able to lift a gun?

Dean has been deconstructed so thoroughly this season. He is either driving around or knocked down while Sam kills all the monsters. Sam stays up all night doing all the research. Sam comforts all the guests while Dean stands in the background mute if he's even present. This episode weapons expert Dean has to ask Super Sammy if he can fix the Colt. And now there are complaints that Dean talks to his Mom.  As utterly lame as it is, Dean's relationship with his Mom is the ONLY storyline he has this season. Oh I forgot, he has the I'm worried about Cas storyline too!

[Goldmoon]

Quote

Sateda-like episode with Dean

Ronin's homeworld on Stargate: Atlantis.  Where's my cookie? 

[Aeryn13]

It`s in the mail.  :)  And I salute you. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

36 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

And now there are complaints that Dean talks to his Mom.

I didn't read a complaint that Dean was talking to Mary: rather that Mary never seemed to talk to Sam.  Or are people not allowed to complain that Sam doesn't talk to Mary and only allowed to complain that Dean isn't getting any kills?

[Idahoforspn]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I didn't read a complaint that Dean was talking to Mary: rather that Mary never seemed to talk to Sam.  Or are people not allowed to complain that Sam doesn't talk to Mary and only allowed to complain that Dean isn't getting any kills?

I read it that the poster was "irritated" Mary didn't talk to Sam instead. We are talking about this episode. Let me tell you where I am coming from. From the beginning of the season we see Dean constantly texting and calling his mom trying to check up and see how she is doing. He even asks her if it's ok to call her mom and admits that he's turning into a needy teenage girl. We are shown Dean initiating the original contacts with Mary. We are not shown her initiating contact.  Instead she just responds to him when he reaches out.  In this episode, if you look at the computer screen you will see three messages from her sons. One is from Sam asking the name of somebody. Two are from Dean. One is a report of some kind but the other is titled "just checking in". The show has shown us that Dean is regularly initiating contact with his mother and checking on her.   The show has not been showing us that Sam is initiating a lot of contact with his mother to just check on her. In this episode Dean calls mom and leaves a heartfelt message saying he needed to talk. I got the impression that the post was why didn't Mary call Sam instead of calling the person that said he needed to talk. Why should his mother call Sam when Dean is the one that needs to talk to her and she is responding to his efforts to contact her. Maybe the show needs to show us that Sam is doing something to keep in contact with his mother but it isn't. It is showing us that Dean is. So it is only natural that Mary calls back or text the person that is keeping in contact with her regularly and said he needed to talk  to her. As I said before, Dean doesn't have much of a storyline this year at all. So much has been taken away from Dean this season that I am just fine with Dean being the contact with Mom because he has been initiating it where we don't see Sam doing the same. This wasn't the first comment I have seen that Sam fans are "irritated" Mom isnt texting/calling Sam. Like I said before, leave Dean something this season even if it's just being the point of contact with Mom. And yeah, they have turned Dean into a needy teenage girl when it comes to Mom.

Edited May 5, 2017 by Idahoforspn

[Dobian]

Who they screwed this week: The twins, and their mom

This season: Psychic Girl

Ever: Bela

The last two really crossed a line because it was innocent young girls who had abusive childhoods.  So let's kill or doom them for shock value.  Not cool, show.

[Katy M]

10 minutes ago, Dobian said:

Ever: Bela

The last two really crossed a line because it was innocent young girls who had abusive childhoods.  So let's kill or doom them for shock value.  Not cool, show.

Bela was an innocent girl when she was being abused. but, she was far from that when she was killed.  She didn't care about anybody but herself and getting money, so it's a little  massively hard to feel sorry for her.  She reaped what she sowed.