“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[juppschmitz]

Remember how stoked Jensen was to finally, after 13 years, get the chance to play an altogether different character? And it was, what, 10 minutes screen time so far after 5 episodes?

Such a shame, especially if you compare his Michael to Jared's (IMO) uninspired, wooden and boring Gadreel.

[Aeryn13]

I just saw something on tumblr that totally cracked me up. Don`t know if anyone here watched Stargate Atlantis but there is this hilarious scene where one of the characters, McKay, babbles on and on and essentially just wants to talk about a subject "near and dear to his heart": leadership  link

This is how I feel the writers are approaching the current Season: leadership for Sam, babble babble, leadership for Sam, babble babble etc.

[MysteryGuest]

9 hours ago, juppschmitz said:

Remember how stoked Jensen was to finally, after 13 years, get the chance to play an altogether different character? And it was, what, 10 minutes screen time so far after 5 episodes?

I fully expect them to revisit the Michael character as the season goes on. But  I think it would have been even more unpopular to have Dean possessed by Michael for the 1st half of the season.  I know that even after the first episode, I was really missing the character of Dean.  He's an integral part of the show.  Seeing Jensen as Micheal was cool, but for me at least, I wasn't interested in sacrificing the character of Dean to see more Michael.  This way, we get to have Dean, and will most-likely get flashbacks of Michael.  This may not work for everyone, but it works for me.

[hunenka]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

I just saw something on tumblr that totally cracked me up. Don`t know if anyone here watched Stargate Atlantis but there is this hilarious scene where one of the characters, McKay, babbles on and on and essentially just wants to talk about a subject "near and dear to his heart": leadership  link

This is how I feel the writers are approaching the current Season: leadership for Sam, babble babble, leadership for Sam, babble babble etc.

That was me who posted it :) I'm glad I'm not the only one who found it funny... Rodney's ramblings about leadership will always be the soundtrack to any leader!Sam scenes to me.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

This way, we get to have Dean, and will most-likely get flashbacks of Michael. 

There is a too many "probablies" for me in that as a storyline and with the way the show has been going and this Season has made the Michael storyline the lowest of all priorities, I`d downgrade probably to "very far maybe". 

We got two episodes of Michael!Dean and not one of those even focused on him. At least the Demon!Dean episodes did. Here, Michael!Dean was the B or C plot beyond Leader!Sam, Nickifer and the endlessly woobied Jacky-poo. Beyond that we got one very stupid flashback where Michael was diminished for the propping of the teenage poser brat. At best we ight get two more flashbacks a la a minute each. 

Jensen got no direction on the character and not even a chance to feel him out for himself. Flashbacks lack suspense and are way less dynamic than current happenings. 

The only real thing that happened is that Dean was gone long enough - a few weeks only - to accumulate some new guilt and become someone who has no place anymore in his own home. Cas found Jack, Mary found Bobby, he is basically thin air for the AU-hunters and while Sam is the only one who seems to care what is going on with Dean, he is also pre-occupied with his new role of Superleader.

And while we get an entire episode devoted to praising Sam to the high heavens with Dean and Mary caring for Sam and defending him against one guy pointing out some valid critical thoughts on Sam, we got an entire episode where a teen poser got to trashtalk Dean`s entire persona again as some weak bully and not only was SHE not made to eat crow but noone defended Dean. Both are "tell" and the viewers ate those up. Lots of people now agree on superleader!Sam and were gleeful about horrible Dean finally being called out by Super!Kaia. 

Yes, I`ve read all 20 million excuses for why that makes total sense but I don`t buy any of them. There is always a reason why Dean deserves to be trashed and Sam deserves to be praised and never the tween should meet. 

Quote

That was me who posted it :) I'm glad I'm not the only one who found it funny... Rodney's ramblings about leadership will always be the soundtrack to any leader!Sam scenes to me.

Good idea. 

[ILoveReading]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

He's an integral part of the show.

Sadly, in the episodes he's not.  Sam does it all now.  He's the researcher, the weapons expert, the genius at lore, trainer, mentor, "big brother" to the entire band of AU's.and now the greatest leader ever.  Not a single thing has changed in the bunker since Dean got back.  It didn't become easier for Sam.   Dean's actually just another burden on Sam's plate and its now harder that he's only sleeping 2 hours a night.  Before Dean he at least got three.   So when the inevitable break down comes it won't be Dean dealing with his Michael trauma.  It will be poor wounded baby bird Sam.  The season has primary focused and Sam's struggle to be the greatest leader in the history of the universe.  Even Dean's accomplishments in this episode were handed over to Sam. 

Dean just roams the halls like a lost puppy.  There is no room for him anymore.    He not integral to any plot that we've seen so far.  Maybe the Michael stuff but that seems more about TMNS now.  Michael is after Kaia not Dean.

Sure, we got something small at the end of this episode.  I should be speculating on what it could all mean but the biggest thing that keeps crossing my mind, is do any of the other writers actually know about it.  Beren's certainly didn't know or care about monsters thinking Dean is Michael or not wanting to damage his vessel.  The biggest question I have isn't what did it mean but does it mean something, and will they follow up on it.  Or is it going to be like Michael's I own you, or Billie's "see you soon Dean."  or Amara's as long as I'm around you can't be hurt. and joined the pile of dropped story lines.

Spoiler

Next week it clearly looks like a monster is going after Dean.

I've asked what his role was and Dabb's only answer is that he's supportive of his brother.  That's not a role because that isn't new  In the past Deans' been supportive and a leader, plus other htings,They're not even really letting Dean do that.  Dean could easily take over some bunker duties like training or mentoring.  But Dabb knows if he does that then Jensen's natural screen presence is going to make him seem like a leader.  He even said he needed to give Sam, Dean free, breathing room.   We know Dabb doesn't want that.  It's only Sam that must be seen and talked about in that capacity.   If Dean offered to help, he's only get the babying Sam lecture and the show couldn't tell the poor poor pitful me story they so obviously want to tell. 

At least playing Michael, Jensen would have a purpose since Dean doesn't .

We arent' even getting the flashbacks were were told we would.

Spoiler

When I was at Jersey Con, Jensen mentioned Michael twice and both times he used past tense.  It was fun, it was challenging.  He also said he saw nothing it the scripts about things coming back to haunt Dean.  I think that was episode 7 they were filming.  Doesn't bode well since it looks like 9 is going to be a Ninja Sue ep.  Rumors are she's back for that episode and since its called The Spear that seems accurate.

Edited November 12, 2018 by ILoveReading

[juppschmitz]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

should be speculating on what it could all mean

Yeah, why even bother? They just leave it out there to keep us (Dean girls - Sam girls feel blessed these past episodes, blessed!) hooked. More likely than not it'll be forgotten soon enough or shoved to the side to give Mark P. and whatshisname-who-plays-Jack "breathing space".

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, juppschmitz said:

Yeah, why even bother? They just leave it out there to keep us (Dean girls - Sam girls feel blessed these past episodes, blessed!) hooked. More likely than not it'll be forgotten soon enough or shoved to the side to give Mark P. and whatshisname-who-plays-Jack "breathing space".

Or it will be exactly like Amara and Dabb and co. will tells fans they can make up their own minds about what the Djinn saw.

He certainly doesn't care about any aspect of this story (other than it getting Dean off screen).  That is obvious.

I submitted this question to a spoiler column.  Lets see if it gets picked.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Or it will be exactly like Amara and Dabb and co. will tells fans they can make up their own minds about what the Djinn saw.

He certainly doesn't care about any aspect of this story (other than it getting Dean off screen).  That is obvious.

I submitted this question to a spoiler column.  Lets see if it gets picked.

You've been on a roll with TVLine - I hope they answer this one!

[ahrtee]

Brought over from Nightmare Logic thread:

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

I guess I just don't see the big deal over Sam taking on this leadership role, considering the circumstances.  Why would he just sit back and let Mary and Bobby run the show?  He's the only one who's been through multiple world-ending crises (with Dean not around).  It just makes sense to me.  I'm not crazy about how they're portraying it, simply because on one hand he's this strong leader, and yet they're also trying to show us that he's semi falling apart because of it.  I'm not sure what the end result of this storyline is going to be.  But it would definitely be weirder to me if Sam had stayed on the sidelines and allowed someone else, other than Dean, to take the lead.  

To me, the big deal is why was Sam messing around with all those strangers, setting up training sessions, setting rules, and finding hunts for them, when (in theory) his main focus should have been Dean and Michael?  Dean being personal, Michael being the important Big Bad they needed to track and stop.  Even all their research should have been geared to that end, the way the brothers focused on finding and stopping Abaddon, Amara, the MoC, and every other major threat they've had to face.  They weren't actively searching for other hunts that time, but would take any that came to their attention.  If that was what Sam had been doing with the AU people, then maybe, just *maybe* I'd accept it, but he didn't. Or if he thought the newbies needed more training, he should have let Bobby and Mary take over the Hunter 101 training while he took charge of finding Michael/Dean, hopefully with the help of some of the hunters who already knew what they were doing.   I might accept that, too.  But he didn't.  
 

31 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I have to disagree here.  Considering Michael, who almost completely destroyed their world, is now on the loose in the new world they're in, I don't see them as even remotely safe.  They know all too well what he's capable of, and they can't just go back to their world whenever they want to.  They're stuck here with Michael...again.  I'm not going to argue that the dialogue couldn't have been better.  The writing could always be better.  But Sam's becoming the "leader" of this band of misfits simply does not seem all that farfetched to me.  

And this just proves it to me.  If they all *know* Michael is the big threat and danger to both worlds, why the hell would anyone waste time with hunting down witches and shapeshifters/djinn?  There are still all "our world" hunters out there who kept things going during the times the Winchester boys were absent for months/years at a time for various reasons, so there's no need to have the newbies out hunting before they were ready.  Since they were familiar with Michael, I'd think they'd be more useful in tracking him, and helping Sam that way.

 

44 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

But no one had to be the leader of these people.  Nothing we've seen was necessary.  Why would these people all jump straight into hunting on a world they didn't even know?  Honestly the whole little "beehive of hunting activity" seems sort weird and not organic.  It's like it's been created from full cloth just to give Sam something to (badly) lead.  

The only show Mary and Bobby would be running would be helping their people deal with what they'd just been through now that they have a chance to be relatively safe.  None of these people have to be or IMO even should be hunting in our world certainly not as quickly as we were shown they were.  They either don't exist on our world, are dead on our world or their dopplegangers are out there somewhere.  Who knows what kind of problems could end up opening up due to that. 

This, definitely.  Because the way they've set up the AU hunters and Leader Sam makes no sense to me whatsoever. No matter how traumatized Sam might have been, he was obviously together enough to organize the whole damn thing except the important parts: delegating and prioritizing.

That's leadership.

Edited November 13, 2018 by ahrtee
left out a word

[tessathereaper]

5 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Brought over from Nightmare Logic thread:

To me, the big deal is why was Sam messing around with all those strangers, setting up training sessions, setting rules, and finding hunts for them, when (in theory) his main focus should have been Dean and Michael?  Dean being personal, Michael being the important Big Bad they needed to track and stop.  Even all their research should have been geared to that end, the way the brothers focused on finding and stopping Abaddon, Amara, the MoC, and every other major threat they've had to face.  They weren't actively searching for other hunts that time, but would take any that came to their attention.  If that was Sam had been doing with the AU people, then maybe, just *maybe* I'd accept it, but he didn't. Or if he thought the newbies needed more training, he should have let Bobby and Mary take over the Hunter 101 training while he took charge of finding Michael/Dean, hopefully with the help of some of the hunters who already knew what they were doing.   I might accept that, too.  But he didn't.  
 

And this just proves it to me.  If they all *know* Michael is the big threat and danger to both worlds, why the hell would anyone waste time with hunting down witches and shapeshifters/djinn?  There are still all "our world" hunters out there who kept things going during the times the Winchester boys were absent for months/years at a time for various reasons, so there's no need to have the newbies out hunting before they were ready.  Since they were familiar with Michael, I'd think they'd be more useful in tracking him, and helping Sam that way.

 

This, definitely.  Because the way they've set up the AU hunters and Leader Sam makes no sense to me whatsoever. No matter how traumatized Sam might have been, he was obviously together enough to organize the whole damn thing except the important parts: delegating and prioritizing.

That's leadership.

Exactly Sam's a middle manager at best, he's not leader.  He's organized something focusing on completely the wrong things, he's going about it in completely the wrong way, but yes, it is organized. :) 

 

Actually you know I'm just thinking about that episode in Season 4, you know right before the end, where Sam was being "de-toxed" and he imagined Mary coming to him and being all praise and "Dean who?".  Looks like it came true, because that's exactly what Mary is like.  "Oh you go baby Sam, you are so wonderful and strong.  Brother?  You have a brother?  Oh yeah...{looks at smudged name on hand}...Dirk"

[devlin]

I just read somewhere on the interwebz that dabb wrote an spn comic which featured a young dean whining that the gun was too heavy to hold only to have a young sam pick it up and shoot perfectly. Wow just wow. Any hope I had for this season was instantly crushed. Now the pimping  of sam as the greatest ever makes perfect sense. Is dabb a 16year old sam stan in disguise?

[juppschmitz]

26 minutes ago, devlin said:

I just read somewhere on the interwebz that dabb wrote an spn comic which featured a young dean whining that the gun was too heavy to hold only to have a young sam pick it up and shoot perfectly. Wow just wow. Any hope I had for this season was instantly crushed. Now the pimping  of sam as the greatest ever makes perfect sense. Is dabb a 16year old sam stan in disguise?

Well, Dabb is the one whose two (TWO!) ideas for spin-offs crashed and burned, so what would you expect?

[devlin]

32 minutes ago, juppschmitz said:

Well, Dabb is the one whose two (TWO!) ideas for spin-offs crashed and burned, so what would you expect?

I was kinda hoping dabb wouldn’t try to completely rewrite this shows history and ignore everything that has gone before but I guess that was too much to ask for

Edited November 13, 2018 by devlin

[Myrelle]

Quote

Maybe. But I like to see the episode before I get upset/annoyed.

Brought over from the Bitter Spoilers thread

Man, I wish I could just turn my annoyance with this show on and off like some others here can-especially this season, which feels like the Season of the Mary Sue/Stu to me more than any other one has ever felt before.

And the pimping and propping has gone through the roof in that regard, too. WoobieLeaderSam, WoobieJack, Kaia Sue. It's almost a given at this point that any character who shares screen-time with any one of these three is going to experience what's become the specialty of Dabbernatural-zero sum writing to prop any and all pets of his or his writers.

[Bobcatkitten]

11 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Brought over from the Bitter Spoilers thread

Man, I wish I could just turn my annoyance with this show on and off like some others here can-especially this season, which feels like the Season of the Mary Sue/Stu to me more than any other one has ever felt before.

And the pimping and propping has gone through the roof in that regard, too. WoobieLeaderSam, WoobieJack, Kaia Sue. It's almost a given at this point that any character who shares screen-time with any one of these three is going to experience what's become the specialty of Dabbernatural-zero sum writing to prop any and all pets of his or his writers.

Since that is my comment, let me be clear, I'm not overjoyed with the season. I just don't get much out of imagining all the ways it will suck before I even see it. If I watch it and it's bad I have no problem saying so. 

[ILoveReading]

Sam's leadership arc is the reason I have no hope, faith or anything in between that anything interesting will happen with Dean, Michael and the AU hunters.  Any scenario topples Sam off the perch Dabb and company want him so desperately on,

If Michael is pretending to be Dean, everyone looks like a moron that they can't tell its not Dean.

If Michael is hiding dormant inside Dean, and he gets some valuable intelligence and takes off with Dean again, Sam looks completely ineffective, after all teenage poser wannabe's can take Michael out.

If Michael eliminates the AU hunters, it eliminates Sam's arc because he has no more adoring flunkies.  Because as soon as they leave the screen so does Sam's authority.    Even if Michael eliminates most of them, Sam would have no more adoring flunkies becasue how can they trust him after this. 

So this IMO is the real reason Michael was dropped and was never actually going to see the light of day.

[devlin]

It’s pretty sad that in order for the character of sam to get any traction that dean can be nowhere near him. I don’t know if that says more about the character of sam or the acting of jp 

[AwesomO4000]

58 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

If Michael is pretending to be Dean, everyone looks like a moron that they can't tell its not Dean.

Since when have the writers post season 7 backed away from making Sam look like a moron? Dabb isn't immune here. The BMoL arc made Sam look like a moron in my opinion.

28 minutes ago, devlin said:

It’s pretty sad that in order for the character of sam to get any traction that dean can be nowhere near him. I don’t know if that says more about the character of sam or the acting of jp 

In my opinion, it says little about the "character" of Sam, because the writers are trying to change the character of Sam. In my opinion, if they would leave the Sam's characterization alone and let him be Sam, then there wouldn't be a problem. I like Sam as Sam, not as trying to be something he's not that organically makes no sense.

The same thing happened for me in season 8. The reason I didn't like Sam in season 8 is because he wasn't acting like Sam. Carver tried to change him into something else in order to fit whatever his message was supposed to be ...which I never understood what that was anyway. What: not being codependent is good, but if you're not codependent that means you're a total jerkass? Or at least that's what it looked like Carver's message was to me *shrug.* Anyway that for me is the problem - when the writers try to change Sam in any major way, it doesn't fit and looks awkward. 7 seasons and 14 seasons is too long a time to try to drastically change an established character. Characterization isn't like a 7 year itch where oops guess it's time to mess with the character again for something "new." It's not going to work... It didn't work for Carl in The Walking Dead either (and again it was seven years of character growth they were changing) and it left most fans going "Hell no, that's not what Carl would say / do / think!" ...especially after watching said character grow up for 7 or so seasons and seeing what he was like. An about-face just doesn't track as genuine and looks awkward and like the character is being manipulated for plot.

In my opinion, the same thing doesn't happen to Dean as much, because the writers are generally less likely to screw around with Dean's basic personality to further some plot arc they want like they seem to do with Sam. However, even when they do small things that seem out of character for Dean, there are fans who notice and don't like it, so imagine if they did some major changing like they are trying to do with Sam... the results wouldn't fit and would look awkward.

I mean if they had given Sam's season 8 storyline to Dean, for example - i.e. that Dean just shrugged his shoulders and said "ehn just didn't bother to look, and Kevin? Kevin who? I'm gonna shack up with this bitchy chick instead" - I think that would've looked pretty awkward on Dean also. It was just a crap storyline, period, and had less to do with Sam's character, because again, in my opinion, that wasn't what Sam should have been acting like anyway (and hadn't really acted like before, or, even if one argued pre-series, at least not for 7 seasons).

So yeah, in my opinion, it's not Sam or Jared... it's that the arcs he's being given aren't really character-driven.  They are trying to force square Sam into a round hole where he doesn't really fit. If they'd let him have a square hole, it'd be fine.

[devlin]

Just read that jared was perfectly happy with what sam has said to dean and that he needed to hear it. So sam/jared think that dean is a bad person who does more bad than good and that he only sacrifices as long as he isn’t the one being hurt. Good to know!

[Myrelle]

So, I don't even know where to start on what I'd like to say about Dabb's most recent tweets(and definitely, not enough time), except to say that, to me, Dabb's show is NotSupernatural

[ahrtee]

6 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

So, I don't even know where to start on what I'd like to say about Dabb's most recent tweets(and definitely, not enough time), except to say that, to me, Dabb's show is NotSupernatural

You might even say, "NotNatural"?  (sorry, couldn't resist.)

ETA: Or "UnNatural"

Edited November 15, 2018 by ahrtee

[Myrelle]

25 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

You might even say, "NotNatural"?  (sorry, couldn't resist.)

ETA: Or "UnNatural"

"NotNaturalSupernatural".

No wait..."UnNaturalSupernatural"...that one gets my vote. :-D

[gonzosgirrl]

17 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

"NotNaturalSupernatural".

No wait..."UnNaturalSupernatural"...that one gets my vote. :-D

How about Soapernatural?

Supernatural II: The Suckening.

[ahrtee]

SuperUnNatural?  UnSuperNatural? Not very Super Natural? Neither Natural or Super? SuperSoaperNatural?

[ILoveReading]

As the Supernatural  World turns

All my Supernatural Children

Days of our Supernatural lives.

Or just Natural, because all the Super stuff is gone

[Aeryn13]

I`d vote for keeping it short and to the point: "Crap".

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I`d vote for keeping it short and to the point: "Crap".

The winner. 

[hunenka]

On 14. 11. 2018 at 8:22 PM, Myrelle said:

And the pimping and propping has gone through the roof in that regard, too. WoobieLeaderSam, WoobieJack, Kaia Sue.

What's paradoxical though is that due to this combination of woobifying and Mary Sue-ing of pretty much all the characters, Dean stands out as the only one keeping it real. He's the only one who isn't ridiculously great at everything, but that just keeps him believable and he ends up being the only one who looks actually competent or anywhere close to a real person.

[devlin]

I realise Jensen looks younger than Jared but can the writers remember dean is in fact the older, more experienced hunter and dean asking for sam’s permission is utterly ridiculous 

[Res]

14 minutes ago, devlin said:

I realise Jensen looks younger than Jared but can the writers remember dean is in fact the older, more experienced hunter and dean asking for sam’s permission is utterly ridiculous 

Well, they can remember he's older long enough to call him "old man".

[devlin]

38 minutes ago, Res said:

Well, they can remember he's older long enough to call him "old man".

I actually don’t mind that coz Jensen responds with the most delightful facial expression and as I am the same age I will often refer to myself as old. It is really highlighting the insecurity of the writers and dare I say they don’t refer to Jared as old as it hits him a lot harder

[catrox14]

13 hours ago, ahrtee said:

You might even say, "NotNatural"?  (sorry, couldn't resist.)

ETA: Or "UnNatural"

"SuperUnNatural"

[gonzosgirrl]

I didn't think Dabb could still surprise me with his need to stan Sam, but having Dean check in with him before taking Jack on a hunt is beyond the pale, even for him. At his most bossy and controlling, Dean was never afforded that kind of authority over anybody, never mind his legendary hunter brother. JFC.

And it wasn't just the one-sided conversation we heard from Sam's POV, the conversation leading up to it (between Dean and Jack) alluded to the idea that Sam was in charge, as have several other conversations.

[Myrelle]

21 hours ago, ahrtee said:

SuperSoaperNatural?

This was last night's episode, IMO.

51 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I didn't think Dabb could still surprise me with his need to stan Sam, but having Dean check in with him before taking Jack on a hunt is beyond the pale, even for him. At his most bossy and controlling, Dean was never afforded that kind of authority over anybody, never mind his legendary hunter brother. JFC.

And it wasn't just the one-sided conversation we heard from Sam's POV, the conversation leading up to it (between Dean and Jack) alluded to the idea that Sam was in charge, as have several other conversations.

But this is LeaderSam we're talking about here, not just his brother...<insert eye roll>...

,

[devlin]

Ok so the reason sam is not hunting with dean is coz he doesn’t think dean is capable of hunting at the moment and is therefore not worthy to watch the CHIEF’S back

[Res]

7 hours ago, devlin said:

Ok so the reason sam is not hunting with dean is coz he doesn’t think dean is capable of hunting at the moment and is therefore not worthy to watch the CHIEF’S back

And yet an episode or two before the CHIEF was dragging Dean out on a hunt on purpose. So which is it? Is he ready? Is he not? is he trying to get Dean killed? (Yes, please?)

Bipolar SuperUnNatural!

[AwesomO4000]

7 hours ago, Res said:

And yet an episode or two before the CHIEF was dragging Dean out on a hunt on purpose. So which is it? Is he ready? Is he not? is he trying to get Dean killed?

Theoretically it's different when Sam is hunting with Dean... then he knows that he can watch Dean's back rather than just Jack who isn't very seasoned.

But then again who the heck knows? I don't really recognize this Sam... or at least he's not acting the way I would expect Sam to act. Maybe something weird happened to him while Dean was gone? It's as good an explanation as any I guess. Then again I was one of those people who swore that Amelia was a figment of Sam's damaged brain until many many episodes in in season 8*** so what do I know anymore?

***I even thought that explained why Sam and Amelia didn't seem to interact with anyone really except for her Dad later, but they were mostly alone at first... which was kinda weird. Why didn't they got out for dinner or go shopping or anything besides having weird picnics in parks that seemed more empty than not? Did Sam fix anyone's apartments at all, and why didn't he interact with those people?

Edited November 17, 2018 by AwesomO4000

[ILoveReading]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Theoretically it's different when Sam is hunting with Dean... then he knows that he can watch Dean's back rather than just Jack who isn't very seasoned.

Sam had zero issues about an untrained rookie going out and hunting on her own. This was not treated as a mistake Sam made. It was Bobby who was the dick for pointing it out.   Yes, Jack is in experienced but Dean is a damn good hunter.  He's better than Sam (unless the show is trying to pretend he's not).  So Sam should at this point be able to trust Dean to look out of Jack and show him the ropes.  

Dean is a senior hunting who we've been shown is very capable of dealing with newbies.  Sam knows this.  It goes back to Why doeesn't Sam trust Dean?  If all the hunters are so inexperinced that "Chief" has to hand hold and spoon feed them everything then someone needs to do the field training.  Chief certainly has no interest.  It's like leading is just orders, commands and accolades to him.   What is he going to do?  Just stop sleeping altogether?  He has to trust those under his command to be competent without him looking over their his shoulder. 

Sam is micro managing every little thing.  It's kind of insulting that he's doing this with Dean.  Dean isn't one of his flunkies.

Edited November 17, 2018 by ILoveReading

[juppschmitz]

So, both Dean and Jack canonically feel responsible for the Michael crisis.

Do you know who apparently doesn’t? (Not canonically, not yet, anyway.) Do you know through whose stupid, impulsive action Michael and Lucifer’s coming to our world was made possible in the first place?

Yeah, exactly.

[AwesomO4000]

6 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Sam is micro managing every little thing.  It's kind of insulting that he's doing this with Dean.  Dean isn't one of his flunkies.

Never said that he was or even implied such a thing. Nor do I think Sam being concerned about Dean means Sam thinks that.

My husband is an experienced turkey and deer hunter and often goes on hunts alone for hours on end. I know he's a good hunter and knows how to take care of himself... but that doesn't mean that sometimes if he doesn't come home within a few hours of when I expect him to that I don't worry a little bit. I'm not being insulting by being worried about my husband. I can't help it. I love him, and people worry about the people they love.

Dean has had instances of soldiering on and hiding how he's really feeling until something happens - season  2 with John's death and season 5 for examples. In season 5, Sam suspected it, but not in time to stop Dean from running off and potentially endangering himself. Considering that Dean recently went through trauma, Dean appearing to be fine and functioning fine isn't a guarantee that he is fine, in my opinion. So Sam worrying about it some is human and not insulting. In my opinion.

Sam's leadership style is another thing altogether... but then again, I'm still not sure that this entire storyline isn't going to go somewhere completely different from where it on the surface appears to be going... in that I'm waiting for the entire thing to blow up on Sam and he's going to fail spectacularly and learn a lesson of some sort. Just like season 4 and 8 and 9 and 10 and 12, etc. As I've said before, I don't think the writers can help themselves... it's their go to. Have Sam do things and/or behave in some way that he doesn't usually and then have him learn a lesson about why he shouldn't have acted that way. And each time they have Sam behave differently from how he usually does - and it seems to be something different each time - they take away another piece of Sam's personality until it's hard to even say who Sam is any more.

[ILoveReading]

27 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Never said that he was or even implied such a thing. Nor do I think Sam being concerned about Dean means Sam thinks that.

Sorry, I never meant to impy you said that.  Just that way that Sam came across in that scene. 

Worrying is one thing, acting like he shouldn't be there is other.  WO   His shocked "just hte two of you, and I can send other hunters suggest that he does't think Dean can hack it.    You can' worry about your husband but I bet you dont' offer to send other hunter in his place.

Yes, Dean has done reckless things in the past.  But that's the past.  Sam should be judging Dean on how he's acting now.  Dean's actually holding it together better than Sam, because Sam is going to end up collasping at some point because the writers love poor poor pitful me, wounded baby bird Sam. 

27 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

am's leadership style is another thing altogether... but then again, I'm still not sure that this entire storyline isn't going to go somewhere completely different from where it on the surface appears to be going... in that I'm waiting for the entire thing to blow up on Sam and he's going to fail spectacularly and learn a lesson of some sort. Just like season 4 and 8 and 9 and 10 and 12, etc. As I've said before, I don't think the writers can help themselves... it's their go to. Have Sam do things and/or behave in some way that he doesn't usually and then have him learn a lesson about why he shouldn't have acted that way. And each time they have Sam behave differently from how he usually does - and it seems to be something different each time - they take away another piece of Sam's personality until it's hard to even say who Sam is any more.

I don't think Sam was made to learn any lessons in any of those seasons, so we'll agree to disagree, but with the pedestal that Dabb and co. have put Sam on, they think he' so far beyond perfection that when he actually screws up, its the fault of the other person for pointing it out.  If Sam does make a massive mistake of screw up it will just be swept under the rug and the blame laid at someone elses feet. most likely Dean.

Yes, I'm bitter that the show took the one thing Dean had left and have to make a big production over it when its finally about Sam. 

Edited November 17, 2018 by ILoveReading

[ILoveReading]

It's funny how Dabb was no where to be seen. 

I believe it was because he didn't want to answer any questions because lots of people would want to know what happened to the Michael storyline.

Edited November 18, 2018 by ILoveReading

[MysteryGuest]

I still didn't get any vibe that Dean was asking for Sam's permission to go on a hunt, or to go on a hunt with Jack.  He was letting him know he was taking Jack, because they've all been concerned that Jack wasn't ready.  Sam evidently still didn't think that Jack was ready, but Dean apparently felt otherwise, since he told Sam what he was doing, hung up the phone, and took Jack on a hunt.  Dean is under no obligation to ask Sam's permission for anything, and Sam doesn't expect him to.  The only people Sam has been "in charge" of are the AU people they brought back with them.  And that was basically a default position, since  Dean was gone and Sam was the only one left with the most knowledge of the lore, etc., that these people would need to learn quickly to get up to speed on monster hunting.  

As to the thoughts and reasons as to why these people decided to stay and hunt monsters in a world that isn't theirs, I can only assume it's because of Michael.  With Michael still alive, their world isn't really safe from him, either.  Admittedly, the writers have not exactly fleshed out that aspect of the story, but this isn't the first time we've been asked to fill in some pretty big blanks.  

[ILoveReading]

34 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I still didn't get any vibe that Dean was asking for Sam's permission to go on a hunt, or to go on a hunt with Jack.

For me, if Sam was just saying he didn't think Jack was ready or Dean wasn't clearing it with Sam for permission, Sam's responses don't work.  I would think they would be more like, "Are you sure he's ready?, or okay thanks for checking in."  To make it clear that's what it was. 

That's not what he said. He said, "Just the two of you?   Jared's tone indicated disbelief, not concern.  Followed up by "We have other hunters in the area, I can send them."  This strongly indicates that he thinks Dean shouldn't go.  Even if he doesn't trust Jack completely, he should trust Dean's instincts, to know that he wouldn't take Jack if he wasn't ready.  Sam is the screw up there.  Even if the show wants to pretend he's perfect, it doesn't change the fact that Sam was wrong.  Does Sam not trust Dean here to look out for jack. 

The fact that Sam told Dean to put other hunters on it strongly suggested that Sam felt Dean shouldn't go, and why not?  Does he really expect Dean just to sit around all day and and wait for orders from "chief"or only go on hunts Sam's approves.   I'm glad Dean went anyway but it still felt like Dean was asking for permission.   

Spoiler

Even next ep we still see Sam questioning if Dean should take Jack out and they're just going to spend the day fishing.  I'm sure something will Sam will be validated and Dean will  apologize for doubting All Powerful Sam the Almighty.   This just feels like a way to teach Dean a lesson and bring him under Sam's authority.  I wonder if we'll see him doing homework too.  

Not to mention, Sam got pissy when Bobby didn't check in with command before going off.  Power seems to be going to Sam's head.

I don't buy Dean being "off."  He really hasn't.  He's holding it together better than Sam. 

Edited November 18, 2018 by ILoveReading

[DeeDee79]

5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

For me, if Sam was just saying he didn't think Jack was ready or Dean wasn't clearing it with Sam for permission, Sam's responses don't work.

 

5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Even if he doesn't trust Jack completely, he should trust Dean's instincts, to know that he wouldn't take Jack if he wasn't ready.

 

5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

The fact that Sam told Dean to put other hunters on it strongly suggested that Sam felt Dean shouldn't go, and why not?

 

5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Not to mention, Sam got pissy when Bobby didn't check in with command before going off.

 

6 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I don't by Dean being "off."  He really hasn't.  He's holding it together better than Sam. 

I agree. This was my interpretation as well.

[MysteryGuest]

Dean has admittedly not been 100%, and Jack is inexperienced.  I don't think that concern on Sam's part for both of these reasons equates to his needing to be in control.  

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Dean has admittedly not been 100%, and Jack is inexperienced.  I don't think that concern on Sam's part for both of these reasons equates to his needing to be in control.  

IMO, those are just a few examples of him being controlling. He's been like for a long time. Heck even from the beginning he had his moments. I see it every time he tries to micro manage Dean's emotional life or tries to get Dean to talk when Dean isn't ready or simply doesn't want to talk. He's controlling when he goes off and does the opposite of what someone else is wanting him to do or not do.  So to me, him being this way is pretty on par.  JMHO

[gonzosgirrl]

28 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

That's not what he said. He said, "Just the two of you?   Jared's tone indicated disbelief, not concern.  Followed up by "We have other hunters in the area, I can send them."  This strongly indicates that he thinks Dean shouldn't go.

IMO, these four words right here tell me all I need to know about where the writer is coming from and their intention to show Sam as the leader/man in charge. I honestly don't see how it can be interpreted otherwise.

Edited November 18, 2018 by gonzosgirrl

[ILoveReading]

I'm posting this here too becaue I don't want to put bitterness in the the 300th episode party thread. 

https://shaiharper.tumblr.com/post/180247152022

Jensen wore his Michael outfit to the 300th ep party.  I wonder if that was some kind of message to the powers that be.  I hope it was.